March 31, 2006
A Conventional Nuke
Sometimes the outright stupidity and shallowness of thinking in the general news media staggers me. But before I blast them, I need to start with myself, for getting so close initially, and then not putting 2+2 together.
Last night I mocked the U.S. military's plan to test a 700-ton bomb in the Nevada desert. I noted that no plane every built could come close to delivering a conventional bomb even a third that size. I wrote it off as a blustering response to Iran's refusal to stop uranium enrichment, but not the test of a serious munition.
I suggested, "If the Pentagon wants to send a real message to the Iranians, they could test a B61-11. I think the folks in Las Vegas and Tehran would be much more impressed with the show."
It wasn't until over 12 hours later that I figured out that something very similar to that might be the point of the test.
The 700-ton bomb will use close to 600-tons of a special mixture of ammonium nitrate-based explosives.
According to Global Security.org, the B61 Mod 11 thermonuclear bomb has a W-61 EPW (earth penetrating warhead) that ranges in yield from 360-kiloton strategic bomb down, if Nuclear Weapon Archive.org is correct, to a tactical penetrator with a yield as low as .3 kilotons. If I'm doing my math correctly, a 0.3 Kt weapon is the theoretical equivalent of 300 tons yield in a convention explosive under certain conditions.
Could the 700-ton bomb test be a surrogate for the shockwave effect of a low-yield .3 Kt B61-11 nuclear warhead?
Neither the Washington Post nor Reuters, nor any other news agency seems to have caught on to this possibility. Then again, they haven't figured out yet that this massive bomb being tested could never get airborne, so this shouldn't be a surprise.
We appear to be running a "nukeless" nuclear test of the kind of ground-penetrating and literally ground-breaking bomb we may be forced to use again Iran. The "empty threat" I mocked yesterday isn't very funny anymore.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
03:25 PM
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I think you might be on to something here. The stated reason for the test makes some sense, but not a lot. Maybe they just want a high-end number for their data, and intend to go down from there. Yours makes somewhat more sense, and seems appropriate for the kind of Army I'd like to think we have.
Although another possibility does occur to me. I know little about military explosives, and the article seems to contain some misstatements, but one thing jumped out at me: why are they using ANFO (ammonium nitrate/fuel oil)? It has a yield below that of TNT, and the wikipedia entry on it implies it might be difficult to prepare ANFO in such quantities for a single bomb. The military has thousands of tons of higher-yield explosives around.
Thus the second possibility: that the press release about "700 tonnes of ANFO" is a complete fabrication, and what's being detonated is a real tactical nuke with a yield in the 600-ton range. That would explain the notification of the Russians.
(Incidentally, since it's an AFP article and the word is spelled "tonne," they probably mean metric tons: 1000kg = about 2200 lbs.)
Posted by: wolfwalker at March 31, 2006 06:44 PM (UxlUT)
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Think of it in these terms. Iran desperately wants nukes. They know we have had a lot of them for a long time. This detonation will say to them - you can go after nukes but look what we can do to you without going that far.
Posted by: Stephen Macklin at March 31, 2006 07:15 PM (DdRjH)
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God;it took you this long!
It might be a scientific test of operational parameters and one is not the weight of thew bomb the aircraft has to deliver!!!!!
Get some help!!
Posted by: RFYoung at March 31, 2006 08:17 PM (TFpgY)
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egg on my face dude. Although the .7 kiloton yield of the test might also indicate an as of yet unknown, low yield penetrator mini nuke. If you want to test a .3 kiloton explosion for modelling purposes, you dont blow a .7 kiloton device.
Posted by: Rey at April 01, 2006 12:35 AM (/GnnS)
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Rey,
It isn't a .7 Kt (700 ton) yield, but 593 ton ammonium nitrate explosive, which burns slower that the TNT KT standard.
I don't claim to be a physicist, but a larger, slow burning explosive might be close to the shock effect of a much smaller, faste burning explosive, like a .3 Kt nuke.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 01, 2006 01:07 AM (0fZB6)
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This is my home turf and I will say only this:
New DOE supercomputer upgrade by IBM, classified 3-D software program simulating multivector forces of a nuclear explosion, Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty.
This test is very important...
End of discussion.
Posted by: WB at April 01, 2006 03:46 AM (10w6K)
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Just to add to your perceptive post and the comments above mine - this test simulates the destruction of bunkers of certain depth and hardness. This may mean that the US is getting serious about an Iranian campaign.
chsw
Posted by: chsw10605 at April 02, 2006 07:27 PM (WdHqZ)
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"A saber being rattled makes much noise. A saber being drawn is quiet."
A nice bit of rattling with this test. Kinda 'one-ups' the Iranian stuff, especially that goofy ground effect "invisible boatmobile".
Wait for the quiet bit... Coming soon.
Posted by: heldmyw at April 04, 2006 02:09 PM (LvGT1)
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Cut Her Some Slack... For Now
Freed hostage Jill Carroll is being bad-mouthed by
some, but after spending three months as a hostage to a group that murdered her translator right in front of her I,
like Rusty, am willing to cut her some slack. She's seen a lot of things that none of us ever will, and endured mental stresses none of us will likely ever have to face, so I can excuse the anti-Americanism she expressed
in captivity. I suggest that her comments both before and after her ordeal should be viewed through the new prism of her recent experience.
Remind me, howeverÂ… what were Eason Jordan's excuses for coddling terrorists?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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C.Y., I agree. Remember U.S.S. Pueblo when it was captured by North Korea in 1968 and the 82 surviving crewmen were held for 11 months. They were forced to sign false confessions, and appear on film, but they extended their middle fingers in what they told their captors was a "Hawaiian good luck sign".
Posted by: Tom TB at April 02, 2006 09:42 AM (y6n8O)
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What was her opinion of America before this ordeal? I'm trying to figure out if this is just Stockholm Syndrome, or something else.
Posted by: Jordan at April 02, 2006 06:31 PM (pLJN7)
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The Signs are There
I guess we can consider this indicative of Democratic competence in their "
cut-and-run-and-gun" national insecurity program.
This campaign the DNC is running on is going to generate a lot of votes. Republican votes.
Ian at Expose the Left has the video.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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CY,
First the stealth estes....I laughed on that. But I almost choked on my coffee when I saw the picture of Pelosi with the sign. You gotta give us fair warning man....LOL
Posted by: Specter at March 31, 2006 09:27 AM (ybfXM)
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Now if I can only find some paper towels to clean the coffee off my screen.....
Posted by: Specter at March 31, 2006 09:27 AM (ybfXM)
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Is that a sign that the Democrats are in distress? We know that the US flag flown upside down is a sign of distress, so is Pelosi secretly stating that the Democrats are in distress over national security and are hoping for relief?
Posted by: lawhawk at March 31, 2006 10:38 AM (eppTH)
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Iranian Stealth Missile
This is interesting. We talk of 700-ton bombs that will never
get off the ground (an M-1 Abrams main battle tank, by comparison weighs 65 tons), and the very next day, the Iranians counter in the bluster war
with this:
Iran successfully test-fired a locally made missile with the ability to carry a warhead and avoid radar, the airforce chief of the elite Revolutionary Guards said Friday.
"Today, a remarkable goal of the Islamic Republic of Iran's defence forces was realized with the successful test-firing of a new missile with greater technical and tactical capabilities than those previously produced," Gen. Hossein Salami said on state-run television.
The missile, while locally made, is of American design.
I'd translate the last part about “greater technical and tactical capabilities” to mean they're now using B4-4 rocket engines instead of their earlier designs using A8-3s.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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The 700-ton bomb isn't being tested for use itself; it's to see what a 1 kiloton detonation does to a buried structure. If the effect is sufficient, then development will procede on a 1 kiloton penetrator nuke.
At least, that's the best speculation I've read. You're absolutely right that there's no way to deliver 700 tons of explosive.
Posted by: Robert Crawford at March 31, 2006 09:08 AM (n5eDP)
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LOL.....love the estes rockets. Maybe they have a silkworm in the catalog now. But I bet they are counting on the heavy lift capability of the tried and true "Big Bertha". guffaw.....
Posted by: Specter at March 31, 2006 09:14 AM (ybfXM)
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New Orleans: Out of Time?
As they say,
timing is everything:
A full recovery in New Orleans could take 25 years as homeowners, businesses and tourists are coaxed back to the city devastated by Hurricane Katrina, the Bush administration's Gulf Coast recovery coordinator said Thursday.
"We kind of want it to happen overnight, or I do, but it's going to take some time," White House coordinator Don Powell said in an interview with Associated Press reporters and editors. "This could be five to 25 years for it all to fit into place."
Powell added: "It's been a bottom-up process and it's complex."
Well, the "bottom" part is right. Guess where New Orleans will be in the next half-century or so?
Give yourself two points if you correctly answered "The Gulf of Mexico."
The original (snark-free) version of this Louisiana wetlands projection comes courtesy of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, and is used at LSU's Louisiana Energy & Environmental
Resource & Information Center (LEERIC) in this article.
Back in September I interviewed the former chair of a Coastal and Marine Studies Department, and asked him the following question:
1. Are estimates that the continued rate of wetland loss in Louisiana will place New Orleans on or in the Gulf of Mexico in the 2050-2090 time frame accurate?
He responded:
The estimates are probably accurate. There are three main factors: Global sea level rise, delta subsidence, Mississippi River sedimentation. Sea level is rising, the delta is sinking and the river is depositing much less sediment on the delta now than in the past (for multiple reasons).
In other words, by the time New Orleans can recover from Hurricane Katrina, it may do so just in time to disappear under the waves of the Gulf of Mexico forever.
I don't have any problems with spending our tax dollars to rebuild New Orleans, I just don't think it wise to rebuild the city in the same nearly indefensible location.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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This prediction is if nothing is done to protect and restore the wetlands. "Nothing" is exactly what the US government course of action has been since Katrina. I live in your yellow circle and I can tell you, as a conservative Republican, I will never trust a word this government says again. All they do is say the correct, caring flowery words and desert you to your own devices. They know America will move on. Well America has moved on and the gulf coast is left to suffer and die. Thanks for nothing America.
Posted by: doctorj at March 31, 2006 08:44 AM (z35qt)
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Well, doctorj, America hater, don't let the door hit your behind as you "Move On"!
Posted by: Tom TB at March 31, 2006 09:01 AM (wZLWV)
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Doctorj,
You must not be a geologist. The wet lands are vanishing because of the levies. They are vanishing due to natural subsidence. The only way to restore them is by dumping sediment on them. You can not save them with plants or any of these other crazy environmentalist ideas.
When the core forced the river to stay where it is, instead of going down the Atchafalaya system, the river began dumping it’s sedimentation over the shelf break. All of the “dirt” that used to deposit on Louisiana is now deposited on the abyssal plane of the gulf of Mexico.
The river was forced to stay in its present location, in order to save New Orleans, the port, in the first place. Therefore, all they did was buy time. I would love to hear from you how the US government is supposed to stop mud, South Louisiana, from sliding off into the Gulf of Mexico. Or how they are supposed to keep the second longest river in the world from going where it wants.
The present day Atchafalaya River, which is where the Mississippi wants to go, has the only healthy wet lands in the state. It is also the only place that the state is growing.
Rusty
Posted by: Russell E. Wilson at March 31, 2006 09:13 AM (2drzM)
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I live in Louisiana. I know that if you send a bunch of money or anything else into our state that the politicians will take most of it. New Orleans is not sinking. It has sunk. Only small portions are above sea level and that will difinitely change soon. It is rediculous to spend money in that area. The New Orleans of historical fame died in the mid 1970's. The thing that was distroyed by Katrina was a tribute to our idiotic social programs to the extent that no one could enter the city without a gun. Despite recent claims that the danger was blown out of proportion, it was real and I have the personal history of several people to attest to this. Before Katrina you could not go into most of the city without being killed. Therefore let it die, do not give large sums of money to this thing!!
Posted by: David Caskey at March 31, 2006 10:47 AM (6wTpy)
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I agree with David Caskey that rebuilding New Orleans or any of the ravaged delta area is a huge mistake considering the current ecological use of the Mississippi. It is really the channeling of the Mississippi with levis all the way up to St. Louis and beyond that is the root source of the problem. The Mississippi delta was created when the Mississippi river was flowing free without restraints and it would take something like that to restore it.
Posted by: docdave at April 01, 2006 08:57 PM (lekzA)
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The Big Nothing
On the day that Iran stated it
would not halt uranium enrichment, the U.S. military made what some are interpreting as a
thinly-veilled threat:
The US military plans to detonate a 700 tonne explosive charge in a test called "Divine Strake" that will send a mushroom cloud over Las Vegas, a senior defense official said.
"I don't want to sound glib here but it is the first time in Nevada that you'll see a mushroom cloud over Las Vegas since we stopped testing nuclear weapons," said James Tegnelia, head of the Defense Threat Reduction Agency.
Tegnelia said the test was part of a US effort to develop weapons capable of destroying deeply buried bunkers housing nuclear, chemical or biological weapons.
"We have several very large penetrators we're developing," he told defense reporters.
"We also have -- are you ready for this - a 700-tonne explosively formed charge that we're going to be putting in a tunnel in Nevada," he said.
Not to put too fine a point on it, this would be one of the most pathetic messages we've ever sent, as it is by far the emptiest threat we can make. To put it plainly (or perhaps planely), this bomb project could never get off the ground.
Literally.
According to the article, this bomb weighs "700 tonnes." It doesn't exactly specify if this is 700 long tons ( 2,240 lbs/ton, or a total of 1,588,000 lbs) or 700 short tons (2,000 lbs/ton, or a total of 1,400,000 lbs), but in the end the key detail is that no airplane on earth can carry such a payload.
The massive American C5 Galaxy carries a payload of 240,000 lbs. The world's largest cargo airplane is the Antonov An-225, which carries a maximum payload of "just" 551,150 lbs.
This is an empty threat, as the Iranians surely know.
If the Pentagon wants to send a real message to the Iranians, they could test a B61-11. I think the folks in Las Vegas and Tehran would be much more impressed with the show.
Update: a closer look reveals that the 700-lb bomb may be a surrogate for a low yield B61-11.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Ah...dude...a 1 megaton bomb does not weight a thousand tons and this bomb doesnt really physically weight 700 tons. It refers to the explosive power as compared to the baseline (TNT). Modern explosives are much more effective than TNT. I would guess that this bomb might physically weight 1-2 tons.
Posted by: Rey at March 31, 2006 01:59 AM (/GnnS)
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Rey, I think yo ae misreading this.
The U.S military seems to measure conventional bombs by their rough gross weight, while nuclear weapons are measured by explosive yield.
They were not talking explosive power but raw weight when they referred to a "700-tonne explosively formed charge," just like a "250-lb" bomb is the weapons weight, even though it has has just 50 lbs. of explosives.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at March 31, 2006 02:19 AM (0fZB6)
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I'd go with one of the "crowd pleasers" as a demo to enhance a mental image of us being crazed, rabid, and maybe just twitchy enough to maybe use one on them.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at March 31, 2006 06:32 AM (WjdPM)
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I think it's time to field test the b61-11. LOL
Posted by: Specter at March 31, 2006 09:22 AM (ybfXM)
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March 29, 2006
Fact or Fiction?
In news related to the five FISA court judge's testimony, competing articles today by Eric Lichtblau of the
New York Times and Brian DeBose of the
Washington Times paint radically different pictures of the judge's testimony today, with Lichtblau's
article making it appear that the five judges were siding against the president, and DeBose
stating that the judges said Bush's executive order was legal. Obviously, one is wrong, and possibly being deceptive. The "verdict" from the lawyers of
Powerline:
Having reviewed the transcript, I conclude that the Washington Times' characterization was fair, but arguably overstated. The New York Times, however, badly misled its readers...
...New York Times reporter Eric Lichtblau has a considerable career investment (and, I suspect, an ideological investment as well) in the idea that the NSA program is illegal. It would seem that Lichtblau's preconceptions and biases prevented him from accurately reporting what happened in the Judiciary Committee hearing yesterday. His suggestion that the main thrust of the judges' testimony was to "voice skepticism about the president's constitutional authority" is simply wrong; in fact, I can't find a single line in more than 100 pages of transcript that supports Lichtblau's reporting.
Eric Litchblau seems to have either lost his objectivity on this story so completely that he cannot even report facts, or he has made the conscious decision to misrepresent the story to the point of outright fabrication.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Evidently the NYT reporters (sic) are so accustomed to lying about anything involving the president they can't bring themselves to break the habit. They had to know they would get caught in the lie, but they also know that half of the people that read their lies will never find out it was a lie. Most lefties aren't capable of reading and understanding more than one sentence per day.
Posted by: scrapiron at March 30, 2006 12:14 AM (y6n8O)
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The quoted judges specifically discussed the case where a judge refuses a warrant. Bush never went to the court for warrants, as the law required.
Also - why would you rely on the Washington Times as a source? The LaRouches carry very little credibility so why should their newspaper? Thisarticle's twisting of what the judges said is ust one example.
Posted by: Dave Johnson at March 30, 2006 01:05 AM (a+eEb)
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Dave, your argument is irrelevant.
This post is about the fact Lichtblau misrepresented what occurred during the hearings, and the
Washington Times is only important in that it pointed out the glaring difference in coverage of the same event, one that warranted further review.
A quick read of the available parts of the transcript shows that the judges agreed, like the FISA Court of Review in In RE: Sealed Case (2002), that the Executive has inherent constitutional authority to conduct foreign intelligence for military purposes, and that FISA is no valid restriction upon this duty.
More
here, but the basic gist is that if ever challenged directly in a court of law, FISA and similar restrictions would be struck down as unconstitutionally infringing on the President's inherent powers.
Congress can pass unconstitutional laws like this all day long, but the Presidency does not have to follow them, and would be in violation of his oath of office if he did.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at March 30, 2006 01:37 AM (0fZB6)
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Dave,
Try reading the transcripts of what was said first, and then speaking. You will look a lot less foolish by backing up the NYT. Remember - they will keep trying to spin it their way since they are under investigation for possibly violating several laws. Get a grip!
Posted by: Specter at March 30, 2006 10:06 AM (ybfXM)
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**Not at all relevant** And I refuse to defend the Times today.
But Confederate Yankee, have you gambled today!? NC Lottery in the school house! (Sorry didn't know where to put it.)
Posted by: Nick D at March 30, 2006 03:03 PM (Y4d9q)
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The NYTimes printed an ideologically biased article? What a shock!
Posted by: benning at March 30, 2006 03:46 PM (GXvlP)
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There should be a concerted effort to out those journalist who may be using their by-line for supporting an upcoming book instead of reporting the news.
Posted by: davod at March 30, 2006 05:10 PM (AM62A)
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I note today that Dave Johnson follows the "Murtha Doctrine" meticulously. That would be, "If Things Look Hard, Cut and Run."
Posted by: Specter at March 31, 2006 09:24 AM (ybfXM)
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Full of Sound and Fury
...Signifying nothing.
Classic Macbeth to be sure, but in this instance, the "nothing" has turned out to be claims from Democrats, libertarians, and some weak-willed Republicans that President Bush's executive order that authorized the creation of a terrorist intercept program by the National Security Agency is in some way illegal.
Yesterday, five FISA judges testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee about this very program:
FEINSTEIN: Thank you very much. Now, I want to clear something up. Judge Kornblum spoke about Congress' power to pass laws to allow the president to carry out domestic electronic surveillance. And we know that FISA is the exclusive means of so doing. Is such a law, that provides both the authority and the rules for carrying out that authority — are those rules then binding on the president?
[U.S. District Judge Allan] KORNBLUM: No president has ever agreed to that.
When the FISA statute was passed in 1978, it was not perfect harmony. The intelligence agencies were very reluctant to get involved in going to court. That reluctance changed over a short period of time, two or three years, when they realized they could do so much more than they'd ever done before without...
FEINSTEIN: What do you think, as a judge?
KORNBLUM: I think — as a magistrate judge, not a district judge — that a president would be remiss in exercising his constitutional authority to say that, "I surrender all of my power to a statute." And, frankly, I doubt that Congress in a statute can take away the president's authority — not his inherent authority but his necessary and — I forget the constitutional — his necessary and proper authority.
FEINSTEIN: I'd like to go down the line, if I could, Judge, please. Judge Baker?
[U.S. District Judge Harold] BAKER: Well, I'm going to pass to my colleagues, since I answered before. I don't believe a president would surrender his power, either.
FEINSTEIN: So you don't believe a president would be bound by the rules and regulations of a statute. Is that what you're saying?
BAKER: No, I don't believe that. A president...
FEINSTEIN: That's my question.
BAKER: No, I thought you were talking about the decisionÂ…
FEINSTEIN: No, I'm talking about FISA and is a president bound by the rules and regulations of FISA?
BAKER: If it's held constitutional and it's passed, I suppose he is, like everyone else: He's under the law, too.
FEINSTEIN: Judge?
[U.S. District Judge Stanley] BROTMAN (?): I would feel the same way.
FEINSTEIN: Judge Keenan?
[U.S. District Judge John] KEENAN: Certainly the president is subject to the law. But by the same token, in emergency situations, as happened in the spring of 1861, if you remember — and we all do — President Lincoln suspended the writ of habeas corpus and got in a big argument with Chief Justice Taney, but the writ was suspended.
KEENAN: And some of you probably have read the book late Chief Justice Rehnquist wrote, "All the Laws But One." Because in his inaugural speech — not his inaugural speech, but his speech on July 4th, 1861, President Lincoln said, essentially, "Should we follow all the laws and have them all broken, because of one?"
FEINSTEIN: Judge?
(UNKNOWN) [probably U.S. District Judge William Stafford]: Senator, everyone is bound by the law, but I don't believe, with all due respect, that even an act of Congress can limit the president's power under the necessary and proper clause under the Constitution.
And it's hard for me to go further on the question that you pose, but I would think that (inaudible) power is defined in the Constitution, and while he's bound to obey the law, I don't believe that the law can change that.
While a full transcript of the five judge's testimony is not yet available, Spruill notes that all five—his word was "each"—of the five judges seems to hold that the President's argument that he has the inherent Constitutional authority to conduct warrantless wiretapping.
This is consistent with the FISA Court of Review's findings in In re: Sealed Case when the Court recognized "the President's inherent constitutional authority to conduct warrantless foreign intelligence surveillance."
These judges seem to agree with the exact point I made in December:
Every President from the dawn of international wire communications well over 100 years ago until 1978 assumed this right, and the courts have always deferred to this particular power inherent to the Presidency. This is supported by case law and precedent, and is summed up in the five-page Department of Justice briefing (PDF) delivered last week. In short, the Department of Justice seems willing to make the case that Bush was well within his constitutional powers. If anything, Congress may have exceeded their constitutional powers in passing FISA.
Even after passing FISA, Carter himself did not feel strictly bound by it, nor has any President since, from Reagan, to George H. W. Bush, Clinton, to George W. Bush. They have all asserted (and over the past two weeks, their DoJ attorneys have as well) that the Office of the Presidency has the Constitutional authority to authorize warrantless intercepts of foreign intelligence. This power has been assumed by every president of the modern age before them, dating back, presumably to the Great Eastern's success in 1866 of laying the first successful transatlantic telegraph cable. From Johnson, then, through Grant, Hayes, Garfield, Arthur, Cleveland, Harrison, Cleveland (again), McKinley, Teddy Roosevelt, and Taft, through Wilson, Harding, Coolidge, Hoover, to FDR and on to Truman, Eisenhower, John Fitzgerald Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford and into the Carter administration, the Presidency has had the inherent and unchallenged power to conduct warrantless surveillance of foreign powers for national security reasons.
This is a simple, unassailable fact, not matter how loudly demagogues shriek.
FISA is a case of Congress infringing upon the inherent power of the executive branch, and if it comes up as a direct constitutional challenge, FISA will most likely be struck down as Congress infringing upon the constitutional authority of the executive branch to perform foreign intelligence functions.
Statutory law cannot override the President's constitutional powers and duties; only a constitutional amendment has that power. Neither FISA nor other current statutory proposals in the Senate can infringe upon the President's Article II powers.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I want to respond to this because well I do. But work calls and I well have to answer.
But highlight this "the Presidency has had the inherent and unchallenged power to conduct warrantless surveillance of foreign powers for national security reasons."
Now we are not going up against the traditional foreign powers. And did this program warrant american spying? I think thats where the FISA law line was drawn correct? The FISA judges may approve the President's actions, but weren't they themselves appointed to the court for that very reason? (I'm not sure if their Bush appointees, i'd have to research later.)
Posted by: Nick D at March 30, 2006 12:53 PM (Y4d9q)
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Nick, show me where in the Constitution that it restricts the President to "traditional" foreign powers, or for that matter, traditional methods. It doesnÂ’t.
FISA does not touch international surveillance for military means (which is what Bush apparently authorized with his EO), and Bush has used FISA for law enforcement more than any president in history. Thee isnÂ’t a real conflict in practice, but one has been ginned up by the NY Times just the same.
International surveillance for national security and domestic surveillance for law enforcement are not the same thing, and FISA only truly applies to the later. If FISA encroaches upon the Executive's Constitutionally-mandated duty to conduct foreign surveillance for the nations defense, then FISA is unconstitutional. Period. Any laws made to amend FISA that restrict these same Presidential duties will be unconstitutional as well, and Bush doesnÂ’t even have to raise a legal challenge. If I understand the constitutional law properly as some have argued it, a President (perhaps only in his Commander in chief roll, I donÂ’t know further than that) may merely sidestep such laws, and he doesnÂ’t necessarily have to challenge them, very much the same way a soldier has both the right and responsibility to ignore an illegal order given to him.
Bush, based upon guidance for the White House Counsel, the NSA legal team, the Department of Justice, and two AttorneyÂ’s General, and predicated upon the fact that no case law in American history has ever even seriously challenged the PresidentÂ’s duties, obligations, and rights in the kind of action, appears wholly in the right. You donÂ’t have to like it, but you do have to learn to accept it is constitutional.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at March 30, 2006 01:38 PM (g5Nba)
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Now with traditional powers, I knew I should have been more specific. I mean to harp on the fact that this is not a traditional "war" we are waging nor our the powers we are up against. In regards to that the law, lawyers, and perhaps the Constutition need to be discussed in a different light.
I understand international spying and domestic spying are two different things, yet not in this instance. National Security and Law Enforcement are the same when it comes to the war on terror, is it not? A FISA law does not inhibit the President in his duties to act as the chief law executor in the land. However I can understand if it does with his Commander in Chief role.
That is a Constitutional issue that needs to be addressed.
Which begs the question, in a time of war does the President have to abide by the laws of justice? The War on Terror is not a traditional war, as I've acknowledged. I don't believe we give up our laws rght there tho.
It comes down to what this really is. Is it spying on Americans or is it spying on international citizens? Who are the ones we are after, one's that lawfully require a warrant to pursue, or someone who we could just swoop down and nab?
I can see where the judges, lawyers, EO's are coming from, if they look at it as purely wartime powers. But thats the question. Its not as simple as a NYT slam down would say it to be.
Posted by: Nick D at March 30, 2006 02:01 PM (Y4d9q)
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It is the NYT and other media of course eagerly assisted by the Democrats that have made something an issue that for the entire history of this nation has never been questioned, that is in the name of national security and in time or war, the president, as commander in chief, has virtually unlimited power to protect and defend the nation in what ever way he deems necessary.
Posted by: docdave at April 01, 2006 09:14 PM (lekzA)
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Cut-And-Run-And-Gun
The new, "aggressive"
2006 Democratic platform advocates shifting 140,000 American soldiers out of Iraq to attack a nuclear-armed nominal ally to capture a figurehead dialysis patient that Harry Reid
already thinks is dead.
More. Please.
Note: Bad link fixed.
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It must have been a dowzy, they've already have pulled the article.
Posted by: Fersboo at March 29, 2006 03:27 PM (x0fj6)
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Do they actually say they're going to attack Pakistan with those troops? Because I'm not getting that from the platform statement. It's too much of a leap for me from "eliminate Bin Laden through deploying more spies and special forces," which sounds like if anything it would involve more cooperation and diplomacy with Pakistan, not war.
Actually, the platform says very little at all. It is typical politican-speak... notice no time is set for the withdrawal. The true fill-in-the-blank is, of course, "when it's politically convenient." But if it were "when the d@mn job is done," then it would be indistinguishable from the Republican position, and they can't say the Dems
didn't say that... the Dems can argue one way to one audience and another to another. Where have we seen that before? The rest is rhetoric without a plan, again all too familiar. CYA.
Posted by: Amber at March 29, 2006 04:56 PM (9uWiP)
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Wouldn't that be normal for Dusty Reid. Nothing he does or says makes sense. The people of Nv. should be real proud of the idiot they elected to serve them. His stupidity is a direct reflection on the citizens of Nv and it's not good.
Posted by: scrapiron at March 30, 2006 12:18 AM (y6n8O)
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I have a point you might want to consider. I have heard that Osama is on dialysis. There are two methods of doing this, one is hemodialysis which requires very sophisticated machines and tubing that has to be changed every time it is used which is about three times per week. The other is peritoneal that requires a special solution and again tubing that is changed with each use and is preformed daily. The key is that dialysis for one individual uses considerable fluid and tubing that is limited in manufacture and distribution. If he is on dialysis, is anyone following the distribution of this material? In my town of 200,000 people it would be easy to see who is receiving the dialysis and where. In a remote area it would be very simple to follow the distribution route. So why haven't we gotten this guy?
Posted by: David Caskey at March 30, 2006 10:26 AM (6wTpy)
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So why haven't we gotten this guy?
Because the dialysis story is 100% USDA pure B.S. strikes me as a distinct possibility.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at March 31, 2006 06:35 AM (WjdPM)
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Handcuffs, Not Kid Gloves
The
Washington Times editorial on illegal immigration by Tony Blankley this morning really set me off (h/t Drudge), especially this part:
...The senators should remember that they are American senators, not Roman proconsuls. Nor is the chairman of the Judiciary Committee some latter-day Praetor Maximus.
But if they would be dictators, it would be nice if they could at least be wise (until such time as the people can electorally forcefully project with a violent pedal thrust their regrettable backsides out of town). It was gut-wrenching (which in my case is a substantial event) to watch the senators prattle on in their idle ignorance concerning the manifold economic benefits that will accrue to the body politic if we can just cram a few million more uneducated illegals into the country. ( I guess ignorance loves company.) Beyond the Senate last week, in a remarkable example of intellectual integrity (in the face of the editorial positions of their newspapers) the chief economic columnists for the New York Times and The Washington Post — Paul Krugman and Robert Samuelson, respectively — laid out the sad facts regarding the economics of the matter. Senators, congressmen and Mr. President, please take note.
Regarding the Senate's and the president's guest-worker proposals, The Post's Robert Samuelson writes: "Gosh, they're all bad ideas ... We'd be importing poverty. This isn't because these immigrants aren't hardworking, many are. Nor is it because they don't assimilate, many do. But they generally don't go home, assimilation is slow and the ranks of the poor are constantly replenished ... [It] is a conscious policy of creating poverty in the United States while relieving it in Mexico ... The most lunatic notion is that admitting more poor Latino workers would ease the labor market strains of retiring baby boomers ? Far from softening the social problems of an aging society, more poor immigrants might aggravate them by pitting older retirees against younger Hispanics for limited government benefits ... [Moreover], [i]t's a myth that the U.S. economy 'needs' more poor immigrants.
[my bold, not in original - ed.]
It does not help that a small but growing number have no intention to assimilate, as shone in these disturbing images captured yesterday noted on both the left and the right.
It also inspired my to contact my Senators, Richard Burr (R) and Elizabeth Dole (R), to whom I sent the following email:
Dear Senator,
It is with a great deal of concern, and even anger that I write to you this morning, regarding the subject of illegal immigration before us this day.
According to an article this morning in the Washington Times:
Gallup Poll (March 27) finds 80 percent of the public wants the federal government to get tougher on illegal immigration. A Quinnipiac University Poll (March 3) finds 62 percent oppose making it easier for illegals to become citizens (72 percent in that poll don't even want illegals to be permitted to have driver's licenses). Time Magazine's recent poll (Jan. 24-26) found 75 percent favor "major penalties" on employers of illegals, 70 percent believe illegals increase the likelihood of terrorism and 57 percent would use military force at the Mexican-American border.
An NBC/Wall Street Journal poll (March 10-13) found 59 percent opposing a guest-worker proposal, and 71 percent would more likely vote for a congressional candidate who would tighten immigration controls.
An IQ Research poll (March 10) found 92 percent saying that securing the U.S. border should be a top priority of the White House and Congress.
And yet those of you in the Senate, including 73 percent of Republicans, support guest worker legislation, rewarding those that would break the law, repeating polices that have failed miserably in the past.
This must not stand. Immigration must be legal. Amnesty is not an option. Illegals must leave this country, and return legally. Employers who hire illegals must be heavily fined. Illegal immigrants must be charged as felons. We must have our southern border sealed with fences and walls to enforce legal immigration, and prevent illegal immigration.
I am but one voice of many, but mine is a loud voice, getting louder, with more than 60,000 influential readers coming to my conservative political blog (http://confederateyankee.mu.nu) last month alone.
I will use that digital pulpit to highlight the fact that you specifically voted against the will of North Carolina's Republican voters. I will questions your motives. I will question your reasoning. I will examine your other legislation. I will examine your connection to lobbyists. And I will do so relentlessly.
America is a land of immigrants. Immigration is good for America's soul. But this immigration must be legal, and every immigrant must come here legally, without exception.
Those of us who can legally vote, including legal immigrants, will have it no other way.
Sincerely,
As I stated in my email to the good senators, I'm completely behind the concept of immigration, but it must be legal immigration.
Those who break our laws should be treated with handcuffs, not kid gloves.
Update: The hihg school students who ran up the Mexican flag at Montebello HS (cluelessly but appropriately running the American flag in the "in distress" upside down position) were not from Montebello HS, but nearby El Rancho High School and both "a board member and the acting administrator of the El Rancho High School were present" according to Ward Brewer, who called Montebello and El Rancho high schools in running this story down.
It sounds to me like a couple of folks need to be fired from El Rancho.
Another reader who claims to be from the area states that many of the students and families of students from El Rancho are *gasp* illegals, though I have no way of verifying this.
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Damn you and all your liberal blogger friends, you're ruining America.
Don't think you can weasel out of it, a few weeks ago you said that The President's plan of painting a spy plane in UN colors and hoping to get the American Pilot shot down by Saddam Hussein was a stupid plan and clearly a forgery.
Well, what do you have to say for yourself now, America-hater? The facts are clear: The President wanted to do it, therefore if you were against it, you hate America and The President and The Troops.
This is just another example of you liberal bloggers and Islamo-Fascist lovers subverting Our President's Wartime powers. I hope Ann Coulter kicks your skinny Democrap ass, Freedom-hater.
Posted by: Why Do You Hate America? at March 29, 2006 01:41 PM (XUcXU)
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Oh wait, you hate liberals too. I must have been confusing you with Al Franken.
Posted by: Why Do You Hate America? at March 29, 2006 01:45 PM (XUcXU)
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Employers who hire illegals must be heavily fined.
Why not put them in handcuffs? Why not charge them as felons?
Posted by: Sven at March 29, 2006 01:59 PM (fWTnt)
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You seem to think the US Government is set-up to help out us "common" Americans.
It's not. It's set up to do the bidding of the corporations.
It doesn't matter what you (or I) want, it only matters what the corporations want.
If they want cheap labor, cheap labor they will get.
Posted by: Robert at March 29, 2006 02:13 PM (ByaZN)
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What part of "illegal" do the honorable senators not understand? By this twisted logic, if I show up with my camping gear and settle down on their "private property", I'm not a trespasser, merely "un-documented". Watch out boys and girls in congress, election day is coming!
Posted by: Tom TB at March 29, 2006 02:29 PM (Ffvoi)
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If these illegal immigrants are taking jobs away from Americans (they're not), and this is a problem for those on the right(or the left), where is the outrage over outsourcing of customer service and manufacturing jobs? Those are jobs Americans actually WANT - as opposed to picking strawberries while being sprayed with insecticide. "American" corporations have moved tens of thousands of jobs South of the border. Everyone will make noises about "Illegal Immigration" and "Civil Rights", Congress will pass laws, but in the end nothing will change. This country is addicted to cheap labor. Always has been.
Posted by: Jake at March 29, 2006 02:36 PM (HDz9U)
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CY you got it right... My wife and I were in traffic court two weeks ago (wifes minor violation) they were at least four hispanic males for court. They were charged with FAILURE TO STOP FOR A SCHOOL BUS...YIKES!!! These guy's had no drivers license, no proof of insurance. no I.D. of any kind. No proof of residency. Furthermore they could not speak or understand english. The court provided a TAXPAYER FUNDED interpreter @ $80.00+ dollars an hour. They paid there fines and walked away. This is intolerable. These guy's were constuction workers. They pay no Taxes, they use county public TAXPAYER funded medical facilities. Their Kids go to Public schools (and don't speak english). At the time of their violation they were driving company trucks.... I totally agree with you we need to get them out of here and prosecute the companies that hire these guy's. The business owners know these guy's are illegal. They do not pay Social security, Medicare or workmans comp on them. I know alot of more than qualified construction workers that are unemployed. Do you think for a second that when these companies bid to build your house or build a road that they give you a discount because they only pay these guy's $5.00 an hour and no employer related taxes! I don't think so... We need to get off our collective rears and scream about this to our so called leaders. I went to MM's site and went through the roof. You are absolutely right, the school officials that took part in this need their asses fired. As I have stated in previous post's my wife is foreign born. My son was born overseas while I was stationed there (U.S. Citizen) it took over a year to apply and process for my lawfully wedded wife and American son to get Visa's and Passsorts. We had to provide all the necessary Medical Examinations, Affidavites of support, background investigations etc. So... If I had to do it they should have to. Amnesty is bullshit. Thats another invitation for more of them to come. Whether Latino's choose to believe it or not this is THE UNITED STATES of AMERICA not Mexico we are for the most part a collection of Law Abiding Immigrants. So if you are here legally you are all my brothers and sister. If you are not, you need to leave and come back after you have been documented and screened. This is a country based on the rule of law if you can't abide by it we don't need you!!!
Posted by: Faithful Patriot at March 29, 2006 02:39 PM (FzhYM)
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So what do you propose to do with the 11 million illegals already in America? Deport them all? Please give me a feasible way of doing so.
What's the plan for makign sure Mexico sticks to its end of a new bargin helping stop illegal immigration?
I am of the mind that these illegals wouldn't be coming here if there WAS NO PLACE FOR THEM TO WORK. Thats the problem. Our ability to crave cheap labor for cheap goods and then turn the other way when asked to take responsiblity for it.
And news flash, sometimes the masses are wrong. Sometimes whatever is popular is not just.
Posted by: Nick D at March 29, 2006 03:11 PM (Y4d9q)
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I agree with you Nick. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy. But, we have to do something these folks cannot be absorbed into our society by the wave of a magic wand. Just stop and think for a moment. These folks by and large are good hardworking people. But, they are not highly skilled. I donot mean thatin a derogatory manner. They earn $5.00 to $7.00 an hour. alot of these folks are senior's our social security system is going to collapse. Our medicare system is overburdened. At that wage scale most if not all will qualify for food stamps and public housing. I for one do not want to pay for all of that. Schools are at capacity now with students who can't speak english, teachers try to give them as much attention as they can but, what about the kids that their parents pay taxes. I don't blame anyone for wanting a better life but, there is a right way and a wrong way. There is no doubt their home countries Govt's are corrupt and there are no welfare systems. But, I as a vast majority of Americans cannot fix that problem. A program that rewards ciminals is not the answer.
I for one will vote against any of my elected officials that support an amnesty program.
Posted by: Faithful Patriot at March 29, 2006 03:55 PM (BuYeH)
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What immigration problem?
Posted by: BigDuke at March 29, 2006 04:06 PM (kuyD/)
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So what do you propose to do with the 11 million illegals already in America? Deport them all? Please give me a feasible way of doing so.
A former Border patrol supervisor has what sounds like a very workable plan I found over at
Sister ToldjahÂ’s site. It is too long to post in its entirety, but here are the main points:
The 1st order of business is to get Congress serious about stopping this flow. To actually do it will require several things to happen at once. There has to be a Guest Worker program. It should be run by the Homeland
Security and would have several steps.
The employer would place an order for the number of workers he would need for the year. He would guarantee to provide Housing, Medical and a legal wage. He would also withhold FICA and income taxes. 50% of the workerÂ’s net wages would be held in an escrow account and paid to the worker upon his return to Mexico at the end of his contract.All contracts would be issued in Mexico. The Homeland Security team would have their offices in Mexico (U.S. Consulates could be used) and would screen all applicants for contract for health problems or a criminal record. No family members would be allowed to enter the United States as dependents of the worker. A spouse could have her own contract but could not bring any children.Illegals presently working in the United States could have their employer request that they be given a contract under the new program, but they would have to return to Mexico to make application for the contract. (Self-deportation.) All contracts would be for one year or less and would have to be renewed in Mexico.Enact laws requiring severe mandatory fines ($5000 per alien) for hiring an illegal alien outside of the Guest Worker Program and aggressively enforce them.
In short, you kill the market for illegal jobs by building a controlled legal market that is competitive, while simultaneously making the illegal market too risky to engage in. It will not result in mass government run deportations, but a gradual, economics-run repatriation of illegals.
What's the plan for makign [sic] sure Mexico sticks to its end of a new bargin [sic] helping stop illegal immigration?
First off, by making illegal immigration unprofitable as the plan above and similar ones would do, MexicoÂ’s involvement wouldnÂ’t matter. If we felt we needed to send a message, economic penalties would certainly suffice. Remember all those jobs that people are outsourcing? Tariffs imposed for non-cooperation can make those go away as well. They could of course retaliate with oil production, but they are more economically fragile than we are, and they know it.
I am of the mind that these illegals wouldn't be coming here if there WAS NO PLACE FOR THEM TO WORK. Thats the problem. Our ability to crave cheap labor for cheap goods and then turn the other way when asked to take responsiblity for it.
Again, taken care of by the plan above. There would be no place for them to work, because nobody would hire them, hence no attempt to try to illegally immigrate. What you and none on the left
never mention is that by allowing illegals into the marketplace in the first place, they hurt low-skilled and trade-skilled Americans, most notably American blacks, recent legal immigrants, and young Americans. If you want more Americans off social services (which Democrats don't, they
want the nanny state instead of independence), quite depressing the labor market. Americans will do the work, when they are paid a fare market rate for their efforts.
And news flash, sometimes the masses are wrong. Sometimes whatever is popular is not just.
You are correct, but this is not one of those times.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at March 29, 2006 04:19 PM (g5Nba)
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Robert,
What rock do you live under? Corporations want the illegals? Maybe the big agriculutural outfits....but most corporations who want cheap labor just build plants in Mexico - they don't import illegals.
When I lived in San Diego the illegals were hired every day for about $20 per day mostly by contractors and landscapers. I guess those small outfits might be incorporated.....
But the problems do exist. There were quite a few Mexican nationals - people with money mind you - caught bringing their kids over the border to drop them off at bus stops in Chula Vista. Better education here - and they paid not taxes. Free health care to - we have to take care of the indigents.
The biggest problem is how to handle and control it all. Until that is solved - and until the government gets serious about solving it - nothing will change.
Posted by: Specter at March 29, 2006 04:55 PM (ybfXM)
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For a wicked satire on the immigration problem and the proposed amenesty, see http://www.nicedoggie.net/2006/?p=456 for A Brilliant Proposal To Deal With Car Theft.
Posted by: Amber at March 29, 2006 05:10 PM (9uWiP)
Posted by: Amber at March 29, 2006 05:12 PM (9uWiP)
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"What rock do you live under? Corporations want the illegals? Maybe the big agriculutural outfits....but most corporations who want cheap labor just build plants in Mexico - they don't import illegals."
Any corporation that deals with construction, landscaping, food service, or janitorial services benefits from illegal immigration. Just about every corporation deals with these in some form or another.
Republican's will never do anything that hurts the bottom line. They will use harsh enforcement of existing laws as a wedge issue for the '06 election then pass the guest worker plan that no one wants. In other words it will be what gay marriage was in 2004. The plan was spelled out in a memo from Lamar Smith to Karl Rove that was accidentally sent to the wrong fax machine in Sept. 2005.
Posted by: John Gillnitz at March 29, 2006 06:04 PM (eHLUP)
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i hate to go all new-agey right out of the box, but there is one, and only one, way to stop illegal immigration, and that is by severely punishing both the people, as individuals, and the corporations that hire illegals.
that's it.
we cannot, and will not, disciple mexico's behavior as a nation. we, as a nation, have shown neither the will or the ability.
we cannot stop the individuals who cross the border. each arrest is arresting a drop of rain in rainstorm. jailing one opens a job for another.
what is left is discipling our own behavior -- that is the new-agey part -- and specifically, the behavior of those fellow citizens who hire these people. it was said earlier, but if there are no jobs, there are no illegals.
that is the only thing that will work, and we are not prepared to do that, because it would mean and least two things:
1. there would have to have a living wage.
2. the people who hire illegals must go to jail.
we can bloviate all we want about what the mexicans need to realize. what we, as a nation, need to realize is that it is our brothers and sisters -- fellow citizens of the good ol' USA -- who are hiring these folks. they are betraying us. they, not the mexicans. the mexicans have nothing to betray.
Posted by: @#$! at March 29, 2006 06:18 PM (S0c7k)
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Visiting Lefty here -- and I deeply apologize for all the fools on my side of the fence who want to be nice to the poor, oppressed illegals (sorry, "undocumented workers," or whatever the euphemism du jour is). But what's your excuse for the Republican pols, huh?
This is something that both sides should be able to agree on -- there are far too many Americans out of work, or under-employed, for us to justify giving ANY American jobs away to illegals. To Jake, who said they're NOT taking American jobs away -- please, I don't understand how you could possibly say that. If the illegals weren't here, the jobs WOULD be taken by Americans -- because the employers would be forced to pay free-market (which means: HIGHER) wages -- wages for which Americans would happily work. Isn't it funny how these staunch supporters of the free market suddenly blanche, have attacks of the vapors, and yell for Uncle Sugar to give them a nice amnesty program by which they can continue to pay SUB-market wages to people who shouldn't be part of the market at all.
And if THIS doesn't prove to you that the Republican politicians are NOT ON YOUR SIDE (except when it comes to RHETORIC), then I don't know what will.
Not that any of our Dem "leaders" are any bettter on this issue, of course. They're ALL selling us down the river for their corporate masters -- and we're ALL just standing here and taking it! Why is that?
Posted by: smartalek at March 29, 2006 10:34 PM (kUXZr)
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Walmart is one of the biggest employers of illegal aliens in the country although they try to hide the fact by using firms that hire illegals so that they don't get sued.
Posted by: madmatt at March 30, 2006 10:02 AM (J8hqn)
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It's like the drug problem. As long as Americans have a craving for cocaine, some enterprising indiviuals will find a way to provide it. As long as US employers crave low wage workers, enterprising Mexicans will be here to fill the jobs. Don't kid yourself, illegal Mexicans are now doing jobs that many Americans would love to have. I was at a construction site in Washington State last year and observed that there were very few Engish speakers to be seen. Mexicans were framing, hanging drywall etc. I have nothing against Mexicans, but I curse the construction company that sold American jobs down the river.
Posted by: Randy at March 30, 2006 12:32 PM (XtZLb)
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smartalek - you're honestly making the point that americans would pick strawberries and lettuce with no bathrooms and no protection against the cropdusting? the agricultural industry wouldn't survive the retooling needed to bring wages and conditions up to american standards, even as low as they've become lately.
there are jobs americans just won't do anymore. funny you should mention the free market - it's free market forces that bring the flow of cheap labor north from mexico and central america. all the supporters of nafta seem to think that it's good and proper for goods and capital to flow across the borders freely, but somehow not labor. whether republican or democrat or whatever, i see a lot of people like smartalek laboring under the misconception that (as you just posited)if all the illegals were somehow regulated, deported, whatever, that "free market forces" would bring the wages up to a point where americans would want them. nice fantasy. surprised to see a "lefty" trotting out that tired canard. "free market" in today's america means "unchecked capitalist greed" - see the wal mart post above. that's your free market for ya. outsourcing, selling our ports to dubai, enron, worldcom...
assuming our agricultural industries could adjust to a completely new wage structure and pool of (imaginary)american workers is just that -an assumption with no basis in fact. they've got you distracted with this immigrant boondoggle - the real american middle class manufacturing and service sector jobs are going overseas. if you think migrant farm labor and carwash jobs are going to drive american prosperity, you are deluded enough to be a bush supporter. i know you're happy to have a little wedge issue to taunt the righties with, but both sides have been wrong on this issue for a long, long time.
have you ever heard of the phillipines? or puerto rico? or guam? there are plenty of other sources of non-native cheap labor. so build your fence. throw out every single illegal from mexico, etc. both guam and pr are american territories so there is no documentation issue. the corporate masters of both parties will do all they can to keep wages low, corporate taxes likewise.
Posted by: jake at March 30, 2006 12:38 PM (HDz9U)
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I have several thoughts on this subject that are bothering me. First, most of the businesses large and small that employee illegals pay less than the minimum wage. But congress seems to think this is ok, so those businesses that follow the federal dictates lose contracts or must close because of the minimum wage issue. This seems ok with our congressional representatives. Second, the main power in the Democratic party (aside from special interest) is the labor unions. Yet the Democratic party is very much for the cheaper labor thus undermining their base. Third, the media and some states are forcing Wal-Mart to provide health insurance. Yet our politicians and the media support the businesses that employ the illegals who clearly do not provide any fringe benefit. Finally, if the illegals are allowed to stay then they will be registered and are no longer cheap labor. They will then be replaced by another batch of illegals who work cheaper. The first group will then be on welfare. Is something wrong with the logic here? As to writing your congressman, do they really listen? Mine don't.
Posted by: David Caskey, MD at March 30, 2006 12:39 PM (6wTpy)
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The plan seems solid to me on many levels. It definitly makes it not worth it to business to hire illegals. However Self deportation? For some reason unless we get real serious real quick, thats never going to happen.
And doesn't it seem awfully beaurcratic to you? It seems like it give Homeland Security another tool to be inept. I would have to place in Labor or Commerce .
And secondly I resent the fact that you believe all Democrats want a welfare state, and all liberals wont talk about the minorities here that are jobless b/c of illegals.
First off most hard working middle class Dems arent for welfare/socialist states. We want to make sure everyone can be protected from the beast of capitialism if they one day need it. Some would suggest Republicans will never relate to that, but I won't slander you all.
Second, if there was such a demand for these jobs by our underclass citizens, then why are they there? Why aren't they taken up with the giddyness people believe they have for them. Its because no American wants them. Even in our poorest people can have too much pride.
Posted by: Nick D at March 30, 2006 03:00 PM (Y4d9q)
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Shoveling shit against the tide for 40 hours a week is a terrible job no Americans would want.
BUT, shoveling shit against the tide for 40 hours a week at $35/ hour is something i think many Americans could handle.
The jobs don't suck, the pay does.
The person up-post who says those that believe in the invisible hand of the free market suddenly blanche is 100% correct.
If strawberries cost $20 a pint because we have to pay $15/hour to Americans who pick them, then demand for strawberries may go down. Isn't that a free market effect?
Posted by: Robert at March 30, 2006 06:56 PM (ByaZN)
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I don't really have much else to add to this immigration debate that hasn't already been said by someone else above, but I will say this: I'm about sick of the characterization of illegal immigrants having committed "crimes" and of being themselves "criminals." I really want to know if people who honestly think that(and aren't simply flogging a talking point to death) really believe if illegal immigrants are on par with thieves, murderers, rapists, drug dealers, child abusers, embezzlers and the other assorted types of criminals we lock up in our prisons. Yeah it's true that if you make an act a crime, and someone commits that act, then they are a criminal. But it's not the same thing, and I don't honestly know how anyone can think so; there's just not any criminal culpability there, like real criminals possess. Whatever you think of them, most illegals are just trying to get over here to work so they can send some money home to their families, and I don't really know how that can be characterized as a "crime" in the common sense meaning of the word. So all this talk about treating them with handcuffs, just like we drug dealers and murderers, is ridiculous.
Posted by: Alexander Wolfe at April 01, 2006 01:03 PM (018Z+)
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Isn't reconquista the same as Zionism?
Posted by: Isrealcool at April 01, 2006 11:30 PM (piepP)
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There are many jobs that American workers will not do because of low wages, no benefits, and bad working conditions. But if the pay and benefits are good, they will do them, which is clearly demonstated by the fact that there are many Americans willing to work as coal miners, a dirty and dangerous job, because the pay is good.
As far as the agricultural industry is concerned it is totally unacceptable for anybody (even illegal aliens) to be expected to work without protection from cropdusting. This simply should not be permitted, no matter who is doing it. Without the illegal aliens things like porta potties would have to be supplied the agricultural workers, just as they are for construction workers. With higher labor costs, a lot of the back-breaking work would be done by machines with workers driving them while sitting in air conditioned cabs.
Posted by: CaptainVideo at April 02, 2006 07:58 PM (Qs6g6)
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I would say that illegal aliens are on par with American tourists who bring items subject to import duties bought abroad into the country without declaring them so that they can avoid paying import duties on them. But they are not on par with bank robbers, or something similar.
Posted by: CaptainVideo at April 02, 2006 08:04 PM (Qs6g6)
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"Illegal immigrants" are not "immigrants," they are criminals. If any of us were to drive without a license we expect to be punished. An illegal alien who was pulled over and handcuffed is now claiming that the handcuffs hurt her and violated her civil rights.
Those who state that all of "the people" have rights need to reread the Constitution, not just the Bill of Rights, but the Constitution, particularly the 14th Amendment (1866) where citizenship was defined. The "people" were given definition. Certainly, we accord visitors in our country certain rights, but to reward criminals with the rights that we, our ancestors, and fellow citizens fought and died for is a travesty. We are shouldering the responsibilities of maintaining and securing this land for ourselves and our children. In order to do these, we must include immigrants seeking legal employment, persons requesting shelter from a hostile, abusive government, and those who wish to join us as citizens of our great land.
Those who come as criminals, earn money as illegal workers, send their money to a foreign country to support that countries citizens and benefit from the services provided by our citizens are not shouldering responsibility. I was aghast when I found that they could apply for a tax ID number so that they could pay taxes! They are saying that this entitles them to our rights. They believe that tax money is all that we require of them? The few dollars that a handful of these criminals pay from the minimum wage jobs that they claim our citizens do not want is a not even a drop in the bucket.
We give much more than tax money. We have served and many have died in our military. We vote. We serve on juries. We volunteer in our communities. We run for elected office and support our candidates and elected officials. We are Americans. We do not take our citizenship lightly and we surely can't give it away to satisfy an ever-increasing mass of criminals who call themselves "illegal aliens..."
It is time that we stood up and were counted!
Posted by: Margie at April 27, 2006 12:23 AM (itqg3)
29
People who march into our country illegally in mass, try to change our national policy while remaining a citizen of another country, and place our flag in the conquered position are not people who wish to assimilate into our country and culture. Those who put another country's flag above ours, and put ours in the conquered position should either be considered invaders, or citizens whose actions are paramount to treason. We should treat them as such.
Posted by: Michael S. Hartman at May 01, 2006 12:23 AM (eEpFH)
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For Sale...
School Buses
Slightly damp, a total of 259. Previously used as a symbol of incompetence. Works great as anchors and fish attractors. Ask for Ray.
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Ray's too busy compaigning to answer the phone. Just ask the reporters who tried to find out if New Orleans had changed any of it's zoning to allow for FEMA trailers.
Posted by: seawitch at March 29, 2006 10:15 AM (b4c6N)
2
Changing the zoning regulations would be another admission of failure in the local government. Let them sleep in the street instead of making the mayor look bad. Sad state of affairs but wanna bet he's reelected?
Posted by: scrapiron at March 30, 2006 12:22 AM (y6n8O)
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March 28, 2006
This Cult Smells Fishy...
According to Michelle Malkin, British Muslims are
carping about a pair of fish they claim are inscribed with the names of Allah and Mohammed, calling it a miracle. Frightening as it all may seem, this "miracle" just goes to reinforce the truth of the being they once called the
Arafish.
Certain dhimmi liberals of course, are falling for this hook, line and sinker, and are all too willing to pander to fish-fascinated fanatics here in the United States.
Some are willing to praise the Allah fish:
Some are so intent on capturing votes that they are willing to go the extra mile to look like the Allah fish:
Not surprisingly, they're all famous bottom feeders, doncha know.
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I don't recall the WingNet getting as worked up whenever a bunch of Christians spots the Virgin Mary on a tree trunk. See my point?
Posted by: john at March 28, 2006 02:50 PM (0Dfz8)
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Sure, they do- see here- read the comments- Stupidity is stupidity the world over.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=19815_Religious_Rooster_Avoids_Death#comments
Posted by: Claire at March 28, 2006 04:46 PM (ez8Yg)
3
Woooow! Attack of the Living Carp!
Posted by: Eg at March 28, 2006 07:43 PM (PG+qd)
Posted by: Specter at March 29, 2006 10:38 AM (ybfXM)
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Those Tools At The Times
For those of you who have read
this NY Times article about captured Iraqi war documents being placed on the web, you'll note that the Times did not deem to give Ray Robinson, the blogger interviewed in the article, a link to
his blog, nor did they bother to give you his entire background. Ray Robinson worked for the Defense Intelligence Agency as a member of the Iraq Survey Group that collected and in-processed this documentation when it was captured. He isn't just a blogger, but a person with some hands-on expertise.
Too bad that the Times couldn't be bothered to provide a link or give his bona fides.
I guess that would go against their "bloggers are hacks, and we're so accurate" meme, wouldn't it?
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Thanks Bob, that was a crock, but the NRO has an article setting the record straight and I think the guardian may be supporting my conclusion about the al-quds document
Posted by: Ray Robison at March 28, 2006 02:48 PM (CdK5b)
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Flailing Fukuyama
One can only hope that the truth brigade of the liberal blogosphere that so effectively curtailed the career of Ben Domenech will maintain their high standards of integrity in the pursuit of accuracy, and be among the first to call for the head of famous ex-neocon Francis Fukuyama.
Fukuyama's life-altering revelation that caused him to turn away from neoconservatism was supposedly triggered by a speech calling the Iraq war "a virtually unqualified success." It turns out Fukuyama's story was instead the unqualified fabrication, according to the man who gave the speech, Charles Krauthammer, who calls Fukuyama out:
I happen to know something about this story, as I was the speaker whose 2004 Irving Kristol lecture to the American Enterprise Institute Fukuyama has now brought to prominence. I can therefore testify that Fukuyama's claim that I attributed "virtually unqualified success" to the war is a fabrication.
A convenient fabrication -- it gives him a foil and the story drama -- but a foolish one because it can be checked. The speech was given at the Washington Hilton before a full house, carried live on C-SPAN and then published by the American Enterprise Institute under its title "Democratic Realism: An American Foreign Policy for a Unipolar World." (It can be read at http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.19912,filter.all/pub_detail.asp.) As indicated by the title, the speech was not about Iraq. It was a fairly theoretical critique of the four schools of American foreign policy: isolationism, liberal internationalism, realism and neoconservatism. The only successes I attributed to the Iraq war were two, and both self-evident: (1) that it had deposed Saddam Hussein and (2) that this had made other dictators think twice about the price of acquiring nuclear weapons, as evidenced by the fact that Moammar Gaddafi had turned over his secret nuclear program for dismantling just months after Hussein's fall (in fact, on the very week of Hussein's capture).
It's all right there in black and white pixels, with an easily followed link to a copy of the speech above. Fukuyama misrepresented the content of Krauthammer's speech as being something else, which certainly as vile as misrepresenting the content of the speech as his own.
I'm sure the intrepid truth squad of the far left - at Firedoglake, Media Matters, the Daily Kos, and others - will press Fukuyama for a full accounting for his transgressions with the same righteous fury they unleashed last week in their relentless pursuit of truth.
Seriously.
Any minute now.
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I'll bet the speech FF claims to remember was "seared, just seared" into his memory.
Posted by: Locomotive Breath at March 28, 2006 10:29 AM (W7Snj)
2
Screw 'im. His "End of History" book was not only boring, it turned out to be dead wrong too.
Posted by: Thrill at March 28, 2006 03:17 PM (8MU2I)
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March 27, 2006
What They Saved
News is now breaking in the trial of the so-called "20th hijacker" Zacarias Moussaoui that Moussaoui and shoe bomber Richard Reid were supposed to hijack a fifth plane on 9/11 and fly it into the White House.
Via Breitbart:
Al-Qaida conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui testified Monday that he and would-be shoe bomber Richard Reid were supposed to hijack a fifth airplane on Sept. 11, 2001, and fly it into the White House.
Moussaoui's testimony on his own behalf stunned the courtroom as he disclosed details he had never revealed before. It was in stark contrast to Moussaoui's previous statements in which he said the White House attack was to come later if the United States refused to release a radical Egyptian sheik imprisoned on earlier terrorist convictions.
Quite frankly, it is hard to trust anything Zacarias Moussaoui has to say, but if he is telling the truth that his target was the White House, it might provide an answer to the question of Flight 93's target that September morning.
It has long been suspected that the hijackers on Flight 93 were likely targeting either the Capitol Building or the White House. As Moussaoui was arrested just one month before the attacks, it seems likely that the other the terror cells would stick with their original targets instead of trying to retarget shortly before the attack. If Moussaoui's statement it true that his target was the White House, then it would seem likely that the terrorists on Flight 93 had the Capitol Building as their target.
We know that the heroes of Flight 93 prevented an attack on a Washington target when they stormed the cockpit over Pennsylvania that September morning. If Moussaoui is correct, we now have a reason to suspect exactly what it was they saved.
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I think he's lying. Originally, he stated that the White House was only going to be targeted at some point in the future, not on 9/11. The guy is a nutcase.
Posted by: Thrill at March 27, 2006 09:47 PM (8MU2I)
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So, if he's nuts, why should we feed and cloth the bastard for the rest of his life. Scew him give him the needle... We have spent millions of dollars on a legal battle for an islamic extremist. Why should American tax payers continue to have to support this idiot.
Posted by: Faithful Patriot at March 28, 2006 07:16 AM (JYeBJ)
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Bush Lied, Yadda Yadda Yadda
The
NY Times has a huge non-story today, where it was found that President Bush and Prime Minister Blair
did not wait until the week before the invasion of Iraq to do their war planning.
When presented in that context, of course, it really is a non-story, other than the fact that the document provides some interesting historical context of the kind of commentary that goes on between leaders in a run-up to a conflict.
Ed Morrissey says pretty much what I would say about the matter, summing it up:
In short, the Times presents us with a memo that shows the US and UK understanding that Saddam would not cooperate with the UN nor voluntarily disarm or step aside; history proved them correct on all those assertions. Given those as reality, the two nations prepared for war. If the Times finds this surprising, it demonstrates their cluelessness all the more.
I suspect it isn't cluelessness as much as it is political opportunism by the Times, which has consistently covered this conflict in a way that makes al Jazeera unnecessary.
Bush Lied, People Died. I think I've heard that before.
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Reminds me of the Downing Street Memo, which was an equal nonstory for anyone who stops and thinks about the desirability of the President being prepared for reasonably likely contingencies. If he wasn't, the NYT would run a story about that instead: more evidence of hasty planning and poor forethought leading to disaster, etc. You can't win once there's a preconceived storyline about you that all new information will be jammed into fitting one way or another, or else simply ignored.
Posted by: Amber at March 27, 2006 01:13 PM (9uWiP)
2
You're kidding me right? No big deal? The fact that President Bush and PM Blair both stated that regardless of International Cooperation, war was and is the only answer to Iraq. Even if there was no WMDs. Even if Saddam wouldn't be provoked into an attack.
And there was poor planning. Former Administration members have stated such things in the past year. Heck here's Bush's own words that he doesnt think inter-religious warfare would be a problem.."was unlikely there would be internecine warfare between the different religious and ethnic groups". (BBC article)
What gets me is that most diehard republicans refuse to believe that there is more wrong here than what is leaked out every day. First its no WMDs. Then there's no AlQueda connection. then there's no yellowcake from Sudan. Then there's hitting Plame. Then there's high oil prices, still. Iraq's in a very close civil war. No one admits not planning, blame it on the DoD. No one admits at fault for speeches leading up to war. President Bush saying he never said "Alqueda = Iraq". Now US and UK seen directly planning for war regardless of what the UN finds. Hell lets paint a US plane UN colors!
Come on.
Posted by: Nick D at March 28, 2006 11:41 AM (Y4d9q)
3
Strange that you haven't already explained that you
were completely wrong last month about the memo. I hope it doesn't slip your mind.
Posted by: grh at March 28, 2006 11:49 AM (flYa4)
4
Nick D,
As I alluded to in my post, folks such as yourself drifting in on your tin-foil parachutes from the Huffington Post and Peter Daou's site can't seem to grasp that combat operations don't happen over night. These notes came from January 2003, just a few months before the invasion.
You must have forgotten that WMDs and terrorism were not our only reason to invade Iraq. Is that information to hard for you to find? Look at the White House web site, and read why there. Funny how you always tend to forget things like that, just as you always forget that all Saddam had to do to prevent a war was to step down.
No WMDs? Tell that to
Georges Sada. Tell that to
other sources that also insist the weapons were shipped out by plane and truck to Syria in the weeks before the war.
No terrorist connection?
The 1993 WTC bomb builder Abdul Rahman Yasin flew back to Baghdad where he lived as Saddam's guest until the 2003 War. Saddam's other Baghdad guests were Abu Nidal and Abu Abbas, two of the world's most infamous terrorists before Osama bin Laden came around. As for al Qaeda, Zarqawi came into Iraq in late 9/11 and has stayed there ever since, while
Saddam financed al Qaeda franchise Abu Sayyaf and is famous for giving money to Palestinian suicide bombers.
No Yellowcake from Sudan?
We never claimed there was. But the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence Report and the U.K.'s Butler Report both concluded he was making contacts in
Niger and other parts of Africa to secure yellowcake, but it didn't say he was successful in obtaining it yet.
After that I just kind of lost interest in what you had to say, as facts aren't something you seem interested in as much as rhetoric.
grh,
When I see something more credible that an exact rehash of what I've already forcefully debunked once before, I'll worry about printing an update. If you read closely, the
Times is very careful to say the idea of the U-2 was
attributed to Bush. That is a far cry from them claiming the comments actually came from Bush, isn't it?
As my previous post on the subject states (and former and active duty military pilots corroborated in the comments), if we wanted to use planes flying a U.N. mission as the excuse, we had our choice to choose form, with attacks of this type occurring consistently since the 1991 Gulf War.
Sometimes, the lack of reading comprehension and critical reasoning skills displayed by folks such as yourself is frightening.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at March 28, 2006 01:03 PM (g5Nba)
5
So GWB planned this war in advance. and this is where we are 3 years in.
Genius, I mean Jenius.
Of course this isn't news to you.
So are you saying bush is not evil, he's just an idiot and incompetent?
Agreed.
Posted by: Robert at March 29, 2006 10:45 PM (ND8TX)
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Re: movement of WMDs to syria.
So Iraq moved them WMDs to syria weeks before the war that you say we had been planning for months (BTW, I say years) and we didn't see it happening?
Do me a favor. Write about NOTHING on your blog other than calling for the President to step down and take the morons he plans wars with.
There should be nothing more important to you (or any American) than getting this idiot frat boy who's in a job WAY over his head out of his position and replaced with an adult.
Not immigration, not iran, not katrina, not the supreme court, not abortion, not euthanasia, not global warming, nothing.
Posted by: Robert at March 29, 2006 10:52 PM (ND8TX)
7
That is a far cry from them claiming the comments actually came from Bush, isn't it?
Not if we're using the English language, no.
But since you're so interested in this, maybe we can agree on something: that the U.S. and England should release the records of this meeting, including the British memo. What do you say?
As my previous post on the subject states (and former and active duty military pilots corroborated in the comments), if we wanted to use planes flying a U.N. mission as the excuse, we had our choice to choose form, with attacks of this type occurring consistently since the 1991 Gulf War.
Nope. The U.S. and U.K. flights were not flying U.N. missions, nor were they flying under U.N. colors.
I realize there's some tiny percentage of people who believe they were, but then there's a tiny percentage of people who believe the holocaust didn't happen. In both cases I think it's better to go with the judgement of the majority.
Posted by: grh at April 01, 2006 05:18 AM (HePgk)
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Escape From New York
Didn't blog over the course of the weekend, and probably won't post much during the next few days, either. We have something of a family reunion is going on at my place, with my wife's sister and her kids up from Florida, and my wife's parents down from New York, and we're having a blast.
They're all looking at real estate and thinking about joining us in the area, and if they do, my wife's brother and his family probably won't be too far behind. The crappy schools, over-priced real estate, and high taxes are pushing them out of both upstate New York and West Palm Beach, and they're looking here like so many people have before them.
Based upon people I've met, I think half of Poughkeepsie, NY has relocated to Cary, NC. They didn't jokingly nickname it C.A.R.Y. -the "Containment Area for Relocated Yankees" - for nothing.
Why are people moving?
Houses are going for over $190 a square foot in the part of NY my wife's family is from for a 40 year-old home, and they're paying outrageous property taxes to support public schools that are both under-performing and increasingly dangerous.
Here is NC, we're building a home for less than $90 dollars a square foot, pay considerably lower taxes, and have our kid attending one of the top school systems in the nation.
I think that's what they call a "no-brainer," isn't it?
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Yeah, but Cary is the overpriced area in Wake County, too. When my parents moved to the Triangle, they picked a spot that's almost in Durham County, and only 10 minutes or so from the airport. There weren't any schools nearby when we moved there, but now there's the Leesville schools, which are some of the best in the county. And you get a whole bunch more yard than in Cary. Did I mention it's not part of any city, so you only pay county taxes?
I live in NYC now, but I think that living in the best city in the world is enough to put up with the taxes and real estate issues (as for the schools, we're going the homeschool route -- and the "cultural capital" here makes it a fabulous choice). That's not true for Poughkeepsie, of course.
Posted by: meep at March 27, 2006 05:02 AM (GqHvA)
2
I'd heard about the Containment Area before I relocated here from my native California. That's why I live on the western edge of Wake county. When I came here, I did so intending to fit in as much as possible - not a difficult thing for me, really, since NC values are much like the values of the CA where I grew up in the 60s.
Plus, I figure if you're going to relocate to get away from the crappiness of, say, New York, it's best to leave your crappy New York mindset behind... something the majority of yankees seem to have neglected to do. They go to all the trouble of leaving Craptown, and then they try to make this place into a small Craptown. Idiots.
Posted by: Russ at March 27, 2006 10:44 AM (utsLN)
3
I'm also not sure what Russ means by a "crappy New York mindset."
While I left New York for the reasons noted in the article, I've always gotten along well with the folks from upstate New York who seem to be the bulk of New Yorkers moving this way. They're good folks.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at March 27, 2006 12:58 PM (g5Nba)
4
Indeed. Perhaps "New York
City mindset" would have better conveyed my idea.
The crappy mindset is more a function of big cities, regardless of where they are geographically. Having lived in LA, Chicago, and the San Francisco Bay Area, I've seen the attitudes in action up close and personal.
People leave the big cities to go to smaller towns, and then complain because there isn't an opera company or a Zabar's in their new town. Cry me a river.
Posted by: Russ at March 28, 2006 12:04 AM (utsLN)
5
Actually, having moved from Raleigh to NYC, I've gotta say that many of the =residents= here are very nice people. I've talked to more strangers here than I ever did growing up in the South (part of that is a volume situation, and the fact I ride mass transit instead of driving now.)
That said, I couldn't stand the Yankees who invaded the South, bitching about not getting a decent bagel or hating the local minor league ice hockey team (which forthwith got replaced with an overpriced NHL team). If you wanted your Yankee culture, why did you leave NY? Come to NC for the barbecue, not for our ersatz Yankee "culture".
Posted by: meep at March 28, 2006 05:59 AM (GqHvA)
6
As a not so recent transplant from NYC I have to tell you we don't all have this "mindset" a******. I mean f*** heck man.
Just kidding. It is great living down here in NC. Honestly I wish everyone from around had the opportunity to live in NYC for a while. And I wish that those who do have that Yankee attidude, mainly NJ trash, would come down here and live a little.
The NC education system however is a wreck. Wake County and Chapel Hill Carrboro, hae some fo the best schools period. However the rest of the state cannot say the same. I truly realized this after visiting www.donorschoose.org, and seeing on all the areas you can help teachers, NYC, LA, SF, Texas etc., NC & SC are on there as well. Says something.
Posted by: Nick D at March 29, 2006 03:16 PM (Y4d9q)
7
You're from Po-town? Proud graduate of Dutchess County Community College (13th grade) here, transplanted from Marlboro, NY (across the Mid-Hudson bridge...the "poor" side of the river!) to lovely Fairfax, Va.
Go Patriots!
Posted by: Nico the Magnificient at March 30, 2006 04:47 PM (059Fh)
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March 24, 2006
The Results of French Homeschooling
Sometimes it is simply better to shut up and take your lumps. Ben Demonech
has not learned that yet:
In his first public comments since resigning earlier today as a blogger for washingtonpost.com, Ben Domenech says his editors there were “fools” for not expecting an onslaught of attacks from the left.
“While I appreciated the opportunity to go and join the Washington Post,” Domenech said, “if they didn't expect the leftists were going to come after me with their sharpened knives, then they were fools.”
Ben, you can't hold the Washington Post to blame for your serial plagiarism, both during college, and afterward.
You don't have an inherent right to work for a major news organization, you don't have a greater level of privilege, and you certainly shouldn't expect a lesser level of accountability.
You don't get a free ride.
Do you think you are French?
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Going, Going...Gone?
I have a confession to make: I never heard the name "Ben Domenech" until the
Washington Post launched the blog
Red America several days ago.
Since his first substantial post hit Tuesday, he has generated an outburst of outrage that I haven't seen on the left since... well, since the last one. True to form, the left has engaged in what they call opposition research, what we call dumpster diving, and what Chuck Schumer's office called an isolated incident after the plea deal last week.
And they have scored hits.
They've uncovered what David Brock's Media Matters for America called, "new evidence of Domenech's racially charged rhetoric and homophobic bigotry,” in an effort to have Domenech fired for what they claim are his past views, including the following:
- In a February 7 post on RedState, Domenech wrote that he believed people should be "pissed" that President Bush attended "the funeral of a Communist" -- referring to the funeral for Coretta Scott King. As you know, labeling the King family "communists" was a favorite tool of the racists who opposed them.
- In another RedState post, Domenech compared "the Judiciary" unfavorably to the Ku Klux Klan.
- In still another RedState comment, Domenech posted without comment an article stating that "[i]t just happens that killing black babies has the happy result of reducing crime" and that "[w]hite racists have reason to be grateful for what is sometimes still called the civil rights leadership" because black leaders "are overwhelmingly in support" of abortion rights.
- In yet another, Domenech wrote that conservative blogger/journalist Andrew Sullivan, who is gay, "needs a woman to give him some stability."
I'm sure that David Brock, being honest and not the kind of guy to write a hit piece, would certainly encourage us to look into his charges. Surely, nothing he charges would be hyperbolic, would it?
Let's look at Brock's first charge:
In a February 7 post on RedState, Domenech wrote that he believed people should be "pissed" that President Bush attended "the funeral of a Communist" -- referring to the funeral for Coretta Scott King.
Posting under the screen name "Augustine" on Red State Domenech did in fact call King a communist. As I asked earlier today, whether or not Domenech was right about King's political affiliation, when did communism become a race?
Brock's second charge is even more volatile.
In another RedState post, Domenech compared "the Judiciary" unfavorably to the Ku Klux Klan.
But what exactly did Domenech say? Brock doesn't directly link to the comment, or provide it in context, instead burying it in text of another Media Matters article.
The Red State post and its comments are here, and Domenech's comment is in response to a charge by James Dobson that men in white robes (the Ku Klux Klan) "did great wrong to civil rights to and to morality" and now we have men in black robes (judges) also doing great wrongs to civil rights and morality. [Note: the comment below is the wrong comment. This is Domenech's first comment in this thread, not the one Brock cherry-picked that was far less descriptive and inflammatory. My mistake ofr grabbing the wrong comment. See comments of this post for details.]
Domenech's comment:
Actually, Dobson's soft-pedaling it. The worst black-robed men and women are worse then the KKK, and not just because they have the authority of the state behind them. They don't even use the vile pretense of skin color - they dismiss the value of all unborn lives, not just the lives of ethnic minorities.
Domenech says that the worst judges, with the authority of the state behind them, are more dangerous than is a specific marginalized extremist group. Does anyone dare to argue the absolute truth of that statement?
Domenech then makes an allusion to the millions of children (of all races) aborted since Roe v. Wade was decided. No one can argue the fact that many more lives have been cut short by abortions than by lynchings.
Domenech is 100% factually correct.
Brock's willful misrepresentation of the meaning and context of Domenech's statements are even more offensive than the charges of racism Brock is peddling because the charges are so obviously contrived.
Next.
In still another RedState comment, Domenech posted without comment an article stating that "[i]t just happens that killing black babies has the happy result of reducing crime" and that "[w]hite racists have reason to be grateful for what is sometimes still called the civil rights leadership" because black leaders "are overwhelmingly in support" of abortion rights.
The Dowdified quote Brock provides was Swiftian satire written by Richard John Neuhaus (full article here) about the book "Freakonomics," and the disgusting thought that a high level of minority abortions cuts the crime rate. Domenech himself states:
Neuhaus, one of the most outspoken, respected and influential pro-life intellectuals in America, finds this logic as morally disgusting as I do. He is putting this logic in its bluntest terms to show the full degree of its inhumanity. A few people have noticed this, but for those who are still having trouble, I highly recommend this.
Once again, Brock is guilty of misrepresenting Domenech.
Last and least of Brock's bulleted list of charges:
In yet another, Domenech wrote that conservative blogger/journalist Andrew Sullivan, who is gay, "needs a woman to give him some stability."
Sullivan, is Domenech's target in this post, and he does end with the line Brock cites. According to Technorati, there are no less than 239 posts about Andrew Sullivan freaking out. Sullivan needs something, but the answer is probably not estrogen-based.
In short, Brock presents four bullet-point charges that he states should be reasons for the Washington Post to fire Ben Domenech. Of those four points, Brock catches Domenech using excessive hyperbole once, and projecting a sexuality-based thought against an erratic writer in another instance.
In between these bookends, Brock intentionally misrepresents Domenech not once, but twice.
In living up to his own high standards of moral clarity, I'm sure we'll see David Brock's resignation letter tomorrow.
* * *
Brock's creativity aside, there seems to be a strong argument for Domenech to resign his Washington Post blog, not for the reasons listed above, but for his lack of creativity... and originality.
Apparently Domenech plagiarized the work of P.J. O'Rourke, and maybe others.
Dan Riehl adds:
Frankly, the attack by Media Matters was about as fair, or accurate as the New York Times - not very. However, if any, let alone all, of the charges of alleged plagiarism are deserved, Domenech is an embarrassment to all bloggers, not just conservatives.
Now, even the defense of him I made is in question if he can't produce a link to an original article containing the deficit quote re the above link.
Though apparently a co-founder, I would also encourage RedState to think very seriously about his role as a RedState blogger going forward. If Domenech plagiarized as freely and often as it would appear, there is no excuse for it.
I can forgive someone who runs across a concept and inadvertently "thinks" it at a later date. It can happen. Ripping content, however, word-for-word, line-by-line, post-by-post... if true, that is no mistake.
Hello, Ben. Goodbye.
Update: It Ain't Over, Fat Lady.
John Cole of Balloon Juice, hardly a "Bush loyalist," puts up a spirited defense of Domenech's character while gutting one of the almost incoherently rabid far left blogger Jane Hamsher:
Hell, half the things in that despicable Hamsher post were not even WRITTEN BY BEN. Even as I grow more and more disgusted and sick of the Republican party, I am still amazed at the gutter antics of the rabid left.
I don't agree with Ben Domenech on nearly any social issue, but I have read thousands of his private emails at Red State (we have an Editor's listserv of sorts), spoken with him (via AOL IM) dozens of times, and I have never seen or heard one shred of racism come from him. I think Ben Domeonech is wrong on a lot of things, but he is no racist, and I think the distortion of what Ben has written by Jane and others is outrageous and disgusting.
Nor is the Washington Post willing to show Demenech the door just yet:
Late yesterday, the liberal Web sites Daily Kos and Atrios posted examples of what appeared to be instances of plagiarism from Domenech's writing at the William & Mary student paper. Three sentences of a 1999 Domenech review of a Martin Scorsese film were identical to a review in Salon magazine, and several sentences in Domenech's piece on a James Bond movie closely resembled one in the Internet Movie Database. Domenech said he needed to research the examples but that he never used material without attribution and had complained about a college editor improperly adding language to some of his articles.
The ante has been upped.
Domenech is either going to be proven a serial plagiarist and a liar, or quite a few liberal blogs are going to have to explain to their readers how they were wrong on a very serious charge.
This seems far from over.
Update: What was the last thing I said?
Ben Domenech has resigned.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:44 AM
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1
Ha ha ha ha ha - wingers. Typical.
Posted by: mkultra at March 24, 2006 03:09 AM (dCXuN)
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"Honest Conservative" oxymoron?
Posted by: Dustin at March 24, 2006 05:17 AM (XzcmD)
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Interesting. liberals are willing to pile-on Domenech (who, apparently has that and more coming). Conservative bloggers, including myself, Dan Riehl, Patterico, The Political Pit Bull, etc are calling for accountability for these charges as well.
But liberals won't say one word about David Brock's own offenses of willfully misrepresention, where he is caught selectively quoting ("Dowdifying") things Domenech did say to the point they no longer resemble the original comments.
If the charges against him are true, Domenech deserves to lose hs job. Brock, as shown above, deserves no less. I think we'll learn rather quickly whether or not the liberal quest for "justice" is as one-sided as it seems.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at March 24, 2006 07:14 AM (0fZB6)
4
I see
Roger Ailes has put you in your place. Too bad you can't edit the comments on his site like you edit your own, or you could clean up that little mess. Keep straying from your little fenced-in yard and your sense of infallibility will suffer for it.
Posted by: ahab at March 24, 2006 07:44 AM (OurlW)
5
Ben who? Nobody knew him... Ben Domenech is going the way of Jack Abramoff (who, in an odd cosmic coincidence, is great pals with Ben's dad -- he was Jack's point guy in the White House). Brilliant. Truth is stranger than fiction.
Posted by: mike at March 24, 2006 08:34 AM (fpDmN)
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I'm surprised the New York Times didn't get first dibs on Ben--or should I be? Why do we never see Ben and Jayson Blair in the same room?
Posted by: Bob at March 24, 2006 08:47 AM (QVDwv)
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Actually, Ahab, If I didn't "edit" anything of yours, I simply deleted your comment in it's entirety for being both off-topic and if I recall properly, profane. I do this pretty consistently. You aren't singled out or special in any way.
Ailes cited a Klan site, proving that the KKK uses claims of communism as grist for their followers. That still does not establish that calling someone a communist is a racist comment. Is calling Cindy Sheehan a communist a racist comment when she makes utterances that sound Marxist to some?
It may not be
accurate to call either woman a communist, but it isn't definitively racist, especially when the comment in question has not been presented in any context. You presume that Domenech is racist, because that gives you a nice strawman. I don't know him, and he very well may be, but it is not proven here, in any way, shape, or form.
If you want unmistakable racism, look to Steve Gilliard calling Michael Steele "Simple Sambo," or Ted Rall drawing Condoleeza Rice as a "House Nigga." Those comments are direct. Do you condemn Rall and Gilliard? Why not?
There is plenty of racism in the world, Ahab. Perhaps your ability to see it where it doesn't necessarily exist is simply a matter of reactionary projection.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at March 24, 2006 09:09 AM (g5Nba)
8
The funny thing about the "King was a communist" meme is that Leftists often imply it themselves. I've read more than one article complaining that discussion of King jumps from "I have a dream" to Memphis, skipping the intervening years where (they claim) King espoused views that, if not quite communist, where certainly socialist. I can remember a Norman Solomon column like this and it seems to me that a HuffPo blogger made a similar post around MLK day this year.
I agree that the plagiarism charges seem to have validity (pending investigation into whether permission was granted). But let's remember that the Left did not go after Domenech because he was a plagiarist; that's just the current hammer. They went after him because he is conservative. If the Post fires him, they should promptly hire another conservative blogger.
Posted by: Brainster at March 24, 2006 10:29 AM (pCPyL)
9
Conservatives will defend ANYTHING if it's on their side. I'm still waiting for someone on the right to wonder out loud whether or not billions of dollars in no-bid contracts being given to Halliburton might be slightly off-color. You are the people, remember, who crawled up the Clintons' asses because of a $30,000 bank loan.
Vaya con dios, Ben.
manshake
Posted by: Been done, chem? at March 24, 2006 10:50 AM (6Rmw0)
10
The question to ask is whether or not this whole Ben thing was a set-up job by the WaPo to smear conservative bloggers on behalf of an outraged MSM?
Posted by: Big Bag of Truth at March 24, 2006 12:18 PM (Misdc)
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The question to ask is whether or not this whole Ben thing was a set-up job by the WaPo to smear conservative bloggers on behalf of an outraged MSM?
I highly doubt it. WPNI (the online
Post) would not willingly bring down this amount of criticism on themeselves just to bring down a conservative blogger.
I just think they didn't have a process in place to vet a blogger, and to be honest, I'm not so sure that anyone has such a vetting process that I'm aware of.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at March 24, 2006 12:54 PM (g5Nba)
12
The vetting is not rocket-science, for heavens' sake! Just do the same thing as for opinion columnists.
For me, the greater scandal here is not left vs. right or even plagiarism. It's *nepotism* and *cronyism*. Just on the right, there must be at least one thousand bloggers that on the strength of their writing and influence would have been picked ahead of Ben if not for his father's political connections in the Republican power establishment in Washington, DC. He represents red, heartland America like I represent the people of Vanuatu.
There's something seriously rotten in the Washington, DC elites. You just got a whiff of its stench.
Posted by: mike at March 24, 2006 03:47 PM (ajFJb)
13
I think you are mistaken regarding Brock's second point. Brock's comment:
'In another RedState post, Domenech compared "the Judiciary" unfavorably to the Ku Klux Klan.'
You suggest that Brock is deliberately misstating one of Domenech's comments. But you've posted the wrong comment. Brock was referring to this:
'In the past 30 years, how many innocent lives has the KKK ended?
How about the Judiciary?
Unfortunate that you cannot count.'
http://www.redstate.com/comments/2005/4/11/194515/204/17#17
I agree with Brock: in this comment Domenech is clearly comparing "the Judiciary" unfavorably to the KKK. Whether or not it is "100% factually correct" is not the point.
I partially agree with you re: the Coretta Scott King is a communist remark, although you seem to be deliberately missing the point. Of course communism is not a race. As Brock pointed out, in the 60's KKK/racists used to attack the Kings by calling them communists. (The same way a winger might call someone a 'terrorist' today.) Brock is implying here that Domenech is calling her a communist in that spirit.
There is no way to prove that Domenech meant it that way. So instead I'll just take it at face value: Domenech thinks people should be pissed that Bush attended the funeral of a widely-respected black civil rights leader. You don't have to be a racist to say that -- just an asshole.
What does Brock misrepresent in his third point? Domenech DID post that article without comment, and that is all Brock says. What Brock stated was "100% factually correct".
I do believe that it was originally written as satire, although it's hard to find anything amusing in it. But If Domenech didn't want to be associated with the ideas in the article, maybe he shouldn't have posted it (apparently approvingly).
Posted by: Colin at March 24, 2006 04:10 PM (673ys)
14
Colin,
You are correct,
I did post the wrong comment. I apologize for that.
What I posted was Augustine's
first post in the thread that more fully explained what he meant, not the brusque shorthand post that Brock cherry-picked and refused to provide context for. I grabbed the wrong quote.
When the context of the thread is explored, it appears that in the comment that Brock presents, Domenech was wondering out loud about the hard numbers of children killed by abortion (the Roe V. Wade "judiciary" reference) versus people lynched by racist groups such as the KKK.
The numbers aren't exact, but the diffrence is staggering:
1,297 whites and 3,446 blacks (4,743 total) were lynched between 1882-1968 according to the
Tuskegee Institute. In the United States, well over
a million babies a year are aborted.
We're talking a basic difference of 4,743 people lynched and something more than 40 million killed by Domenech's "judiciary."
As for Domenech being ans ass... anyone who falsely represented that much of other people's work as his own has certainly earned the title.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at March 24, 2006 05:38 PM (0fZB6)
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I know this is off topic but how can anyone take pride in calling himself a "Confederate" anything? The Confederacy was a vile, racist, and traitorous state. How can anyone find that label as worthy of use in 2006?
In the South, there is a movement run by Neo-Confederates, who try to revise history, transforming an evil domain into a sadly gone-by era that should be lamented for its simpler and genteel way of life where Negroes new their place. Ugh! The Confederacy was a grand guignol of terrors for African-Americans. Women were raped freely. Children were forcefully separated from their families.
I find it mindboggling that you would wrap yourself in the imagery of the Confederacy so pridefully. How do you not see the horror of the Confederacy's actions and the brutal legacy of domestic terrorism its sons, like the Klan, have inflicted on innocent Americans? What ethical standard do you use in your life? Would you wrap yourself in the iconic imagery of Nazi Germany? It has an interesting flag. It enslaved people. Separated families. Murdered families.
I live in the United States of America. I am an America. I do not see myself as a Yankee or hold loyalty to my state above my nation. There is only one American flag that matters, Old Glory. The Battle flag of the Confederacy reflects hatred. Not until the Civil Rights Era did the Battle Flag see its rise and use as a state flag.
I could go on, but surely you must no the since of fea, revulsion, and outrage that celebration of the Confederacy inspires. Surely you must know the wrongness of your actions. Surely you must know that for the survival, security, and continued success of America we must be a united people of diverse backgrounds.
Of course, evil knows no bounds of decency. What kind of man are you?
Posted by: noah at March 24, 2006 11:46 PM (qWdSg)
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What kind of man am I? The kind that provides this
link for smug, self-righteous folks such as yourself.
Have a nice day.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at March 25, 2006 12:38 AM (0fZB6)
17
From your original post, Brock claimed this:
'In another RedState post, Domenech compared "the Judiciary" unfavorably to the Ku Klux Klan.'
I followed your link into the redstate thread. I think it's clear: Domenech compared "the Judiciary" to the KKK. Brock did not misrepresent what he said.
Now you seem to be arguing that it is reasonable, based on the number of pregnancies ended since roe v. wade and the number of black people lynched by the KKK, for someone to compare "the Judiciary" to the KKK.
OK, that's your opinion. But outside the rw echo chambers a lot of people find that sort of comparison at the very least offensive. (I'd also call it 'deliberately inflammatory' and 'stupid').
Most of the Post's subscribers and advertisers are not right wing nuts who think it makes perfect sense to compare US judges to the KKK. That's why Brock pointed it out to the clowns at the Post.
But based on my reading of the thread, Brock did not misrepresent what was said.
Posted by: Colin at March 25, 2006 04:50 PM (rBctI)
18
I am not at all a history buff, so this post is going to get me in trouble, but
My understanding is that, as hard for it is for us to believe in modern times, at the time the Civil War touched off slavery was just one of several issues, including fundamental disagreement over states rights versus the role of the federal government, economic policies heavily favoring industry (North) over agriculture (South), and deep-seated cultural conflict for which slavery was seen as something of a proxy. Many Southern whites did not have a direct stake in slavery, since it was only the privledged class, the large plantation-owning gentry, that benefitted from the free labor, and not the white working class that they might otherwise be forced to hire. In fact, many Union states held slaves, and Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation, which only promised the freedom of Confederate slaves, was still somehting of a political gamble. Originally his statements and speeches about the war were about preserving the Union at all cost. I think there's even a quote by him saying he'd preserve the Union if it took freeing all, some, or none of the slaves.
The States were very independent of each other, suspicious and resentful of each other back from the earliest days of the Revolution, and so for the South it was very much like having a foreign country invade, and many proudly defended it on that basis. And there was good reason to defend your farm and home from Union armies whatever your politics were- ask Georgia if U.S. forces were always so soliticious as they are now of territory they conquered and occupied.
All of that is not to defend the Confederacy's policy of slavery, which goes without saying (I hope) is indefensible, but just to say that not everyone automatically equates Confederate history with slavery. As someone who lives in the South, I have seen cars with Confederate flag bumper stickers that say: Heritage, Not Hate. And I have spoken with many who sincerely believe that.
The question then becomes whose views determine the acceptability of an emotional symbol: those of the person who uses it or those of the person who perceives it? I think that this issue has become somewhat of a philosophical dividing point of the left and right, as with the Danish cartoon controversy and the politics of offensive language generally- that is, how P.C. must we be?
You would think that including a disclaimer, as CY does, of exactly what he means by the handle (a family joke, apparently) might settle the issue, but many times it does not, because it assumes that the intentions of the user rather than the reaction of others are what matter. Note noah's focus on the latter in his second post. Of course, here the criticism was originally directly leveled at the intentions of the user, CY, probably because his link isn't easy to find. But just as a more general observation that seems to be what the question boils down to. The blog Protein Wisdom has a lot of wordy posts about the politics of symbols I found interesting, including an unintentionally offensive ice cream symbol.
I would think that the best way to defuse symbols of their power to cause pain is to use them in un-hateful ways, as long as that is made appropriately clear. Some Southerners have been trying to reclaim and redefine Confederate symbols in a broader context: not whitewash history, as has been elsewhere suggested, but to be as the flag of any nation with both good and bad people and both noble and ignoble history, not standing for a particular part of it. To do otherwise is also to offend, to offend those Southerners who were brave and self-sacrificing- yes, there were many!- and their descendents.
That being said, I think that in cases like these there is a certainly responsibility to be prudent and clear with your meaning. Where so many will wonder if bigotry is intended, the link CY provided is necessary. In fact, he might save himself a bit of trouble if he moved it up top, but then again perhaps he relishes these confrontations. There are a lot of people with a very superficial impression of Civil War history, and just because slavery/bigotry is a very clear-cut Evil it doesn't mean that you can reduce the human complexity involved in the war that easily. It, was, literally, not black-and-white.
Now let me be clear about my own intentions to close up. Slavery- bad. Racial oppression- bad. My only intention is to point out that not everyone who uses Confederate symbols is trying to challenge those two no-brainers. I wouldn't hang out at this blog for a moment if I thought otherwise.
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