May 19, 2009
A Tiny Lemur Didn't Murder God Today
If you've been online today you've probably stumbled across—or have been bombarded with—the story of "Ida," a 95-percent complete, 47-million-year-old fossil of a nine-month-old
Darwinius masillae.
Ida is a lemur-monkey that has been declared the fabled "missing link" that proves Darwin's theory of evolution as a biological bridge between higher primates and other, less advanced cousins.
The Scientific team's Revealing the Link web site attempts to provide some context for what is assuredly one of the most important scientific finds in recent memory.
The presentation and implications of the find have made atheists like Allahpundit giddy with the thought that a find proving the theory of evolution somehow negates the existence of God. That sentiment, of course, has sparked a predictable battle between the Biblical absolutists AP was no doubt intending to goad, and his fellow atheists. It has spurred an epic 600+ comment thread at Hot Air.
Charles has spurred a similar thread (700 comments as I write this) at Little Green Footballs written with a less combative tone.
I'm obviously missing something central to the wars being held in these comment threads, so someone please help me out—how does the existence of lemur fossil prove that God doesn't exist?
It's an absurd argument, of course, and a complete non sequitur.
While Charles Darwin fell away from the creationist view of the world espoused by Christianity as a result of his findings and contemporary works such as Charles Lyell's Principles of Geology, I see very little in his work that disproves God.
What Ida does is provide more support for a scientific theory, and in so doing, it erodes the absolutist view of the creation story told in the Book of Genesis. It doesn't disprove God. It simply once again highlights the failings of people.
If you believe that every single word in the King James/Good News/NIV Bible that you own is the absolute, undiluted and infallible utterance of God complete in every way and accurate in every detail without ambiguity or literary device, then frankly—and I mean this will all brotherly love—you're a bit touched in the head.
You're also historically illiterate.
We know for a fact that there were three separate views regarding the substance of Christ 325 years after his death among Christians and that the modern view of the godhead was only cemented by a series of vote during the first Council of Nicea, three centuries after his death, not as the result of a divine act.
We know of the apocrypha (which may or may not have been inspired, but are certainly excluded) and we know that Paul's first first letter to the Corinthians, dealing with sexual immorality, was lost to the sands of time.
The Bible, translated and mistranslated through various languages, edited in subtle ways and subject to a wide range of all-too-human failings, is the best of the Word of God we could retain. It is not perfect. It is full of allegory and allusion and prone to our misinterpretation of what it means in our all too finite and convoluted minds.
So Genesis says the Earth was created in seven days, and describes the creation of the universe and our way in it, and a fervent literal belief in that account is incompatible with the most commonly held theories of evolution.
We're left with the choice that the choice to interpret Genesis literally is wrong, that the very text of Genesis is wrong, or that the theory of evolution is wrong. At least, those are the choices most arguing the issue like to frame.
But I have a nagging doubt that like so many human arguments, that this is an argument of false choices and that the reality is probably both far more complex and infinitely more simple.
I believe in God unreservedly. I also believe in evolution and plate tectonics and the fossil record. I do not find these to be incompatible, simply because some of my fellow humans declare I must believe either/or.
As great as the Bible is, it isn't perfect, and it is sometimes contradictory, and while to believe as I do is self-serving, I want to make clear that I question the various stenographers, translators, and publishers, not the author.
As for evolution, I find it is a great theory to explain how species adapt and persevere and thrive, and utterly consistent with the world I can touch and feel.
But science, as wonderful as it is, is far from perfect and is as full of holes as any religious text.
The best scientific minds cannot begin to explain how randomly occurring minerals and elements found in the mud of the universe formed molecules and those molecules randomly formed themselves into nucleotides and then into RNA and DNA and then into even the most basic single-celled life.
We see no scientific evidence of life having ever simply erupted from rock or sand or mud or water, and yet all of biology hinges on the very very fact that at some point in history, such a transaction must of have occurred. Physics, chemistry, geology, and all other scientific fields similarly fail to explain our origins. Does this mean that science doesn't exist?
Science, as wonderful as it is, can tell us only that the universe we know is roughly 4.6 billion years old, and that it probably started with a big bang. But it cannot tell us what existed 4.61 billion years ago, and offers no workable hypothesis about where that matter was prior to it's dispersal or where it came from, or how it got there, any better than when God simply spoke:
L E T T H E R E B E L I G H T
...and there was.
Science helps explain the world around us, and our place in it. So does religion, and the two are often at war as men seek to use one or the other to explain the world in a way that best advantages them.
That assuredly has no bearing on God, who must be terribly amused at all our theatrics. He must sometimes wonder about what his favored creation has done with the massive computational and emotional engines he gave it, to conjure the thought that He could be undone by the mere revelation of another of his creations.
How silly we must seem.
And roughly as consequential as a primate frozen in stone.
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1
If man knows how life originally "evolved", why can't he reproduce the process?
If God is all-powerful, why can't He preserve the Holy Scripture intact?
The Bible claims it is the word of God. It is either wholly true or unquestionably false. There is no middle ground. God, by definition, cannot lie.
I think this is where "faith" enters the picture.
Posted by: navyvet at May 20, 2009 01:10 AM (o2bVb)
2
Greetings,
Man does control evolution - Mandels' (pardon the spelling) Peas, domesticated dogs, leaner pigs, seedless grapes - pick the husbandry of your choice. We breed for specific criteria.
It's called 'Free Will'. Can He preserve and make anything He desires absolutely perfect - yes. However, He chooses not to.
God, by definition, can do anything He dang well pleases. When He changes the rules, we call it a miracle.
Regards,
Posted by: Mike at May 20, 2009 02:30 AM (Exyh+)
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Like mind here.
Scott- The exekiel passage you refer to is explicitly described as metaphorical in the beginning of the chapter- verse 4. Any verse or small series of verses can be made to sound as nonsense, but somehow, when you get more into it, it ends up making sense. We shouldn't let our shortcomings of understanding and openness be laid on the messenger.
Actually, to me, what's amazing is how accurate (in a schematic way) Genesis is about creation. How would a scribe of several thousand years ago be able to get so much right? First light (big bang), than day and night (solar system), then the waters (sea and atmosphere), then dry land forms, followed by vegetation. This is followed by creatures of the water, and then birds- and how about that it looks like Dinosaurs were the predecessors of birds- then land animals- smaller to larger, and finally man.
The fourth day is more problematic, but could be conceived as the point when energy to sustain life from the sun arrived as the atmosphere cleared enough to utilize that energy, and the earth itself cooled enough.
Of course, I'm referring specifically to first Genesis- second being less in line with science, and more akin to other creation stories.
Posted by: douglas at May 20, 2009 05:49 AM (20QoQ)
4
"If God is all-powerful, why can't He preserve the Holy Scripture intact?"
Because if God made it crystal clear it was his word- no doubt- then we'd really not have free will, would we?
Posted by: douglas at May 20, 2009 05:51 AM (20QoQ)
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Douglas, you might want to read Genesis and the Big Bang: The Discovery Of Harmony Between Modern Science And The Bible or The Science of God: The Convergence of Scientific and Biblical Wisdom, both by a physicist, Dr. Gerald Schroeder. Dr. Schroeder reconciles the first six days of creation to modern cosmology and the Big Bang by way of time dilation (Special Relativity). It seems a nice fit. The second creation story seems to be told from the perspective of fallen man (blames the woman etc.) But even there the dialog between the serpent and Eve and the story of Caine and Able seem informed by the most advance anthropological insight available to us in the 21st Century. The second creation and the Caine and Able stories are mythic but most expectedly they have anti-mythic characteristics.
Posted by: Mike O'Malley at May 20, 2009 09:17 AM (pdXTu)
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Hello Navyvet!
Your rhetorical questions don't seem to do justice to what we now know about the formation of the Bible. It's complicated. The text and even the identity of the books forming the Jewish Biblical cannon were not fixed and finally determined until after the 1st Century AD. However, recall that what Jesus promises to preserve is the Church and its kernel of faith. As Robert Bork said, "Jesus did not come to leave the world a book, but a church".
Posted by: Mike O'Malley at May 20, 2009 09:28 AM (pdXTu)
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It is a set of bones. It does not have a tag that says "this is an ancestor of humans." That is a conclusion made by those who are looking for an ancestor, Even the scientist who discovered them doesn't think that it is really an ancestor of humans - just similar to what the evolutionists think must have existed.
Posted by: Grey Fox at May 20, 2009 10:47 AM (IV0Ws)
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Love the post. For some, the dropping of this particular dime has led, not to a disproving of scripture, but to the opposite.
For example:
How long was a "day" in Genesis? Depends upon who you talk to (many church founders and ancient Jewish scholars had differing views). The word itself, translated as "day", can mean a bunch of things, from a literal 24-hour period to an indefinite period of time, delineated by epochal markers.
Take a peek at the resources available at http://www.reasons.org, especially the book "A Matter of Days". It does a good job of covering the controversy regarding the disagreement about the length of the Genesis "day", as well as try to settle the disagreements in a peaceful, reasoning fashion. They vigorously research modern science, and have developed a testable scientific model that comports with scripture.
I recommend the organization for their ability to simply and dispassionately state the scientific evidence, and allow it to speak for itself. They are a great resource to discover that, as Bob has stated, "...the reality is probably both far more complex and infinitely more simple."
Posted by: DrummingAncient at May 20, 2009 11:21 AM (Mx8oC)
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The Jewish Sages say that anyone who takes Torah at face value is a fool.
Posted by: Lucy at May 20, 2009 11:52 AM (f1Kri)
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Charles Johnson seems to have been relentlessly purging orthodox Christians and other commenters who are disinclined to kowtow to Charles Johnson's party line on evolution and Intelligent Design. So given the lack of diversity among current LGF commenters it is unsurprising that Charles Johnson's thread at Little Green Footballs is written with a less combative tone.
If I recall correctly, Allahpundit is a lapsed Catholic. My observations suggest that AP was poorly catechized and is poorly informed about evolution, ID and Church teaching in these regards. I think there is hope for AP but he's going to need to broaden his reading it seems.
I made a recent post on AP's Hot Air thread on this topic. It's kind of hard to understand why they are so worked up about "Ida". If this one isolated find is such a breakthrough it suggest that until now Neo-Darwinism had substantially less, indeed inadequate, evidentiary support, than its advocates claimed. Far less than either Charles Johnson and Allahpundit seem to have been lead to believe.
.
In other words, this finding would suggest that their prior claims were grossly overstated and therefore their current claims about Darwinism might well be no less overstated too.
Posted by: Mike O'Malley at May 20, 2009 12:43 PM (pdXTu)
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In reply to 'Douglas'
I hate it when religionis use the concept of 'free will' to justify their answers.
Explain how can the concept of 'free will' can exist when we are given commandments to live by and told if we do not do so we will be burning in the fires of 'Hell'? Surely that cannot be free will.
Posted by: Humanist at May 20, 2009 01:26 PM (ocws8)
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I like the general idea of your post. I especially like your comment that one lemur fossil could hardly prove or disprove God.
I'm biting my tongue wanting to comment on the Council of Nicea, which didn't "cement" anything, but helped turn a minor battle (though one increasing in strength) into a really major one. The influx of pagans into the church, in an effort to please the emperors who were showing favor to Christianity, then helped turn it into a violent and political battle as well.
In fact, what was finally cemented wasn't the Nicene view of the Trinity at all, but a combination of the Nicene view with the modalist (one person, not three) view that's best summed up in the Athanasian Creed, not the Nicene Creed.
Finally, however useless my opinion might be (though it's historically accurate), the issue with Scripture has more to do with people than books. Yes, we lost at least one Corinthian letter, but what we do have was kept because they were from Paul, an apostle (and a trusted, revered spiritual man).
Keeping the Word of God is what it was all about. If Christians today lived by what we do have--that the sons of God are led by the Spirit of God and thus still have the Word of God coming to them, and that they have each other to as checks and balances to keep us from going crazy--then we'd find that the Word of God is as powerful in the 21st century as it was in the 1st.
And power was what it was all about in Paul's time.
"For the kingdom of God does not come in word, but in power" (1 Cor. 4:20).
"For [the Gospel] is the power of God to salvation, for in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith" (Rom. 1:16,17).
Maybe instead of arguing for an impossible 6,000 year old earth, we could try arguing from the righteousness and power revealed when Paul's Gospel is preached. There's no argument against that kind of power. People stand in awe of its ability to transform lives, build love, and create a society that can truly be called the family of God.
That family, whenever it's been seen, has been astounding and changed the world.
Posted by: Paul Pavao at May 20, 2009 01:30 PM (GMdQL)
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I don't think anyone is in a position to say that evolution or God mutually exclusive because neither the Bible or any evolutionary theories are absolutes.
Good article.
http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/ida/
Posted by: Jess at May 20, 2009 03:11 PM (osZb3)
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In reply to 'Humanist'
You know you might just want to get a handle on Christian doctrine before you shoot off a response such as your missive above to Douglas. Hellfire is a metaphor. Damnation is separation from G-d ... freely chosen eternity alone without G-d and without those who are in communion with G-d.
No punishment, just choices ... at all times very "just" "choices".
Hate what you will Humanist, but Douglas would seem to be consistent and you would do well to seek out a Christian paster for an introduction to the basics of the Christian faith.
Posted by: Mike O'Malley at May 20, 2009 03:17 PM (pdXTu)
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Bob-
GREAT posting. And I completely agree with your views on reconciling my beliefs with science.
If only more people actually were educated before they fired off, and respected each other's beliefs to begin with -- we wouldn't have such a toxic public discourse.
Thanks.... great post!
Posted by: Bruce (GayPatriot) at May 20, 2009 04:56 PM (HttvJ)
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Very postmodern post, but macroevolution isn't compatible with the Biblical sequence of creation. For example, in Genesis, birds come before land animals; not possible according to macroevolution.
Not only does this take the literalness of Genesis off the table, it takes the reliability of Genesis off as well. It's not simply that the "how" is left unexplained, it's that the basics of the narrative become unreliable as well.
It seems to me more honest to pick a position than to try to reconcile two utterly contradictory accounts.
Posted by: jdb at May 20, 2009 08:25 PM (Dj4BX)
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It seems to me more honest to pick a position than to try to reconcile two utterly contradictory accounts.
Posted by jdb at May 20, 2009 08:25 PM
.
However that depends on upon how one reads the biblical account (hermeneutics). As Saints Bellarmine and Augustine (and Galileo) would certain caution us, the Biblical text should not be interpreted literally if it contradicts what we know from science and our God-given reason. Augustine himself understood Genesis' 6 day structure to provide a logical framework, rather than a literal description of the passage of time in a physical way.
Posted by: Mike O'Malley at May 22, 2009 07:45 AM (pdXTu)
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August 18, 2008
Another Miracle in Galilee
Even God seems to be against Barack Obama, because in His wisdom,
He highlights a living example of the candidate's most inhumane views.
The woman underwent an abortion and the baby, weighing 610 grams, was extracted from her womb without a pulse, hospital officials said.
A senior doctor pronounced the baby dead and she was transferred to the cooler.
Five hours later, the woman's husband came to the hospital to take what he thought was his dead baby girl for burial.
When the baby was taken out of the cooler, she began to breathe. The premature baby was then taken to the intensive care ward, where doctors were attempting to save her life.
Luckily for the baby, Barack Obama was not there to vote against care for the abortion survivor after she was discovered alive, as he has done here in the United States.
Real Messiah: 1, ObamaMessiah: 0
Related: The moral courage of ferrets.
Update: The baby passed early Tuesday.
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How high in the Israeli government did they have to go before finding someone with the proper pay grade to decide this baby's fate?
Posted by: Pardo at August 18, 2008 03:49 PM (9v34C)
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I don't suppose it's worth mentioning that the Israeli woman was having an abortion
to remove what the doctors believed to be a spontaneously aborted fetus (that is, the baby just died
in utero), rather than electively, or that the normal effect of providing "care" to neonates from that sort of induced labor is simply to prolong for a brief time any suffering they may experience.
Or that a "present" vote is not the same as a "no" vote, essentially or otherwise.
Posted by: Doctorb at August 18, 2008 04:07 PM (DGLui)
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You're right, doctorb; a present vote just indicates even fewer principles and being too spineless to take a stand.
Posted by: SDN at August 18, 2008 05:01 PM (ehTyy)
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http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1012796.html
"
A preliminary examination found that the fetus had no pulse, and the woman was rushed to the operating room to have the fetus removed."
Removing an (apparently) already dead fetus from a mother is NOT an "abortion" in any meaningful use of the word.
Posted by: LIBARBARIAN at August 18, 2008 05:03 PM (tCYT+)
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Removing an (apparently) already dead fetus from a mother is NOT an "abortion" in any meaningful use of the word.
The (spontaneous) abortion would have taken place upon the death of the fetus. Elective abortion is what folks take issue with. Spontaneous abortion just happens sometimes.
Posted by: Pablo at August 18, 2008 09:50 PM (yTndK)
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doctorb - If a piece of legislation takes a certain number of affirmative votes to pass, can you explain further how voting present is not the equivalent of voting "no"?
Can you also let me know your native language?
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 18, 2008 10:24 PM (i/fLn)
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It's really too bad you can't frame your debate in any sort of factual context.
Illinois already has a
law that requires that when a child is born alive as the result of an abortion, the physician must exercise "the same degree of professional skill, care and diligence to preserve the life and health of the child as would be required of a physician providing immediate medical care to a child born alive in the course of a pregnancy termination which was not an abortion."
Posted by: skylark at August 19, 2008 03:08 AM (dxp8a)
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Or that a "present" vote is not the same as a "no" vote, essentially or otherwise.
Correct. A "present" vote - which is used in Illinois and several other states - is often a means of indicating that the legislator objects to certain parts of a bill they might otherwise be willing to support. And that's exactly what Obama said about the Illinois "born alive" bill.
Stateline
Posted by: skylark at August 19, 2008 03:15 AM (dxp8a)
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From your link skylark:
"In Illinois, the “present” vote works as a vote against a measure during final action."
There is nothing hard to understand about this concept.
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 19, 2008 09:19 AM (i/fLn)
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From your link skylark:
"In Illinois, the “present” vote works as a vote against a measure during final action."
There is nothing hard to understand about this concept.
-------------------------------------------
And yet you seem to have a problem doing so.
Posted by: skylark at August 19, 2008 09:51 PM (B5Q3+)
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It's really too bad you can't frame your debate in any sort of factual context.
Context like
this, skylark?
Indeed, Mr. Obama appeared to misstate his position in the CBN interview on Saturday when he said the federal version he supported "was not the bill that was presented at the state level."
His campaign yesterday acknowledged that he had voted against an identical bill in the state Senate, and a spokesman, Hari Sevugan, said the senator and other lawmakers had concerns that even as worded, the legislation could have undermined existing Illinois abortion law. Those concerns did not exist for the federal bill, because there is no federal abortion law.
Posted by: Pablo at August 20, 2008 07:02 AM (yTndK)
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Pablo, try - just try - to go back and read again, for comprehension.
Posted by: skylark at August 20, 2008 10:48 PM (79kdb)
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No Common Ground?
The
progessive blogosphere and
Andy Sullivan—but I repeat myself—have decided to accuse former POW John McCain of stealing a story from Alexander Solzhenitsyn, a Russian sent to the gulags (forced labor camps) for writing ill of Stalin in a letter to a friend... a typical application of the Soviet version of the Fairness Doctrine.
Here is McCain's story:
Solzhenitsyn's tale read:
Leaving his shovel on the ground, he slowly walked to a crude bench and sat down. He knew that at any moment a guard would order him to stand up, and when he failed to respond, the guard would beat him to death, probably with his own shovel. He had seen it happen to other prisoners.
As he waited, head down, he felt a presence. Slowly he looked up and saw a skinny old prisoner squat down beside him. The man said nothing. Instead, he used a stick to trace in the dirt the sign of the Cross. The man then got back up and returned to his work.
There are, of course, no recorded instances of crosses or other Christian images ever being recorded in prisons. I jest, of course.
In Kilmainham Gaol, in the spot where a mortally wounded James Connolly was strapped to a chair before a firing squad on May 12, 1916, a cross stands. Of course, it came later.
Mamertine Prison was originally constructed around 386 B.C. but is best known for it's upside-down crosses because it's most famous alleged resident, Saint Peter, was crucified upside-down. While we don't have any witnesses that crosses or the Christian fish symbol was written in the dirt of the prison floor during the incarcerations of Peter and Paul, it seems likely such imagery was commonplace, and I'm reasonably certain neither Saint was familiar with the Russian writer who came nearly two millennia later.
Christian imagery is common in prisons around the world long before Solzhenitsyn was born, spreading as Christianity spread.
With the brutality of man's inhumanity to man common throughout the history of prisons, is it surprising in the least that in prisons around the world, guards and prisoners, enslavers and slaves, found a shared common ground in Christianity?
To disbelieve such things are possible is to not renounce John McCain, but to insist jailers are not human, just unfeeling robots incapable of grace or compassion. But I prefer to think that God is in all prisons.
It's one of the places where he's needed most.
Update: Uh-oh. Another U.S. Navy pilot who became a POW in North Vietnamese prisons is telling similar stories of surprising North Vietnamese Christan compassion. Are progressives going to try to assail his honor as well?
Why not?
They already drove him out of the Democratic Party.
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1
Wait. Are you saying Solzhenitsyn ripped it off from someone else before McCain ripped it off from him? I'll have to alert the Kosmonauts, who were on this story before Excitable Andy.
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 18, 2008 10:19 AM (i/fLn)
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It really is amazing the vicious hatred liberals have for our men and women in uniform.
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at August 18, 2008 11:18 AM (kNqJV)
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The people at Daily Kos will let you know that the research was first done by the FreeRepublic.com back in 2005:
"Sorry, Fellow Kossacks, but it was the Freepers who first spotted McCain's plagiarism."
"Of course they would. They all love Solzhenitsyn and at the time, they all hated McCain. The year was 2005..."
Posted by: BC at August 18, 2008 12:42 PM (cHiv+)
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You forgot to mention that A) McCain is a big fan of Solzhenitsyn(See article McCain wrote about him below). Also if they shared the same event don't you think McCain would've made some mention of it in the article? What are the odds that in a communist prison a Christian guard goes up to them and draws a cross in the sand? Also John McCain described this as a pivotal moment in his time there, yet failed to mention that in his 17 page article that he wrote giving a first hand account of his time as a POW in 73.(See article below) You would think that would've got some sort of mention. Solzhenitsyn book came out in 73.
McCain's article on Solzhenitsyn
http://www.nysun.com/opinion/solzhenitsyn-at-work/83117/
McCain's first hand account of his time in the prison camp.
http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/2008/01/28/john-mccain-prisoner-of-war-a-first-person-account.html?PageNr=1
Posted by: DBA2211 at August 18, 2008 01:22 PM (gFOJB)
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McCain is a loser. He lies constantly. Must have picked it up from Bush/Cheney. Oh,Karl Rove is his un official advisor. Nevermind. The king of slime is running the show from behind the curtain.
The Mob ties to his wifes fortune that catipulted him to power havent even surfaced yet. Not on a big scale. It is well documented, as there was a trial in which her uncle was sent to prison.
All McCain can do is talk about Obama cause his own past is beyond shady. I see his son just bailed a failing bank just before the quarterly report showing major losses came out. This is the old Bush Bank Fraud Scheme revisited. Just bigger.
Obama has more class in his pinky than McCain has ever had. McCain is another fortunate son who was handed everything he ever wanted as he partied his way through life without a care. His lust for power has led him to say anything he believes will get him elected. The facts, as with Bush, are not relevent.
Posted by: John at August 18, 2008 01:35 PM (opbWo)
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Yes, because everybody knows McCain's POW story isn't harrowing enough, so he needed to make stuff up to be more dramatic.
This is just another example of how well McCain did and how nervous Obama's supporters are getting. They're throwing anything out as a distraction and hoping something sticks. First he knew the questions, now he's exaggerating his POW stories. Weak.
Posted by: mindnumbrobot at August 18, 2008 01:48 PM (d5LvD)
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McCain is another fortunate son who was handed everything he ever wanted as he partied his way through life without a care.
It is my sincere hope that you never have to experience 1/100th the agony, broken bones, and shattered teeth of this "life without a care" John.
I do agree with your closing statement however: for liberals such as yourself the facts are indeed irrelevant.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 18, 2008 01:56 PM (HcgFD)
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CY - Something is wrong with the comment sections on a couple of your posts below. I wanted to ask you where I could get a copy of that new Obama Buy American CD.
I haven't done the Dixie Chicks number on anything in a while so seeing it perked me right up.
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 18, 2008 02:01 PM (i/fLn)
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daley, nothing is wrong with the comments... I turned them off due to spam.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 18, 2008 02:07 PM (HcgFD)
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CY, why, if this narrative of McCain's is true, did he leave it out of his 1973 biography? Why, if this narrative of McCain's is true, would he not have paralleled it with Solzhenitsyn's? I mean, he is a fan of his writings, you would think McCain would connect the dots to make for a more powerful narrative.
And Christian imagery being common in prisons around the world is a complete non-sequitur to your point. You are trying to point out that McCain did NOT lift the story from Solzhenitsyn, and your evidence is that Christian images are common in prisons. Let me repeat, that DOES NOT FOLLOW.
I'd like to believe that it really happened, but there is a lot of circumstantial evidence suggesting otherwise.
Posted by: DSBq at August 18, 2008 02:19 PM (c2FAa)
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I hate to accuse McCain of exaggerating his account of POW life but do you remember this?
Per McCain's original account, during an interrogation, he was asked for the names of his squadron buddies; McCain gave his questioner the names of the Green Bay Packers' offensive line. But recently, he went to Pittsburgh and, lo and behold, the names of his squadron members were members of the Steelers' defensive line.
Unfortunately, McCain has shown that he will say or do anything to win the Presidency. That may include this "cross" story.
Posted by: Barry at August 18, 2008 02:31 PM (GAf+S)
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Ah, the smell of Obamatard desperation is in the air.
How sweet it is!
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 18, 2008 03:09 PM (i/fLn)
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I can think of several reasons to *not* tell that story in '73-- not the least of which would be preventing the slaughter of said guard and his family.
It's also possible that it *became* a pivotal moment in his time there sometime after the bones were healed and he had enough distance to think, hard, on the subject.
I'm putting this in the same category as the folks who insist that NOBODY ever has their lives saved by a Bible taking the bullet-- because, y'know, nobody ever packs a Bible over their heart, and there wasn't ever a tradition of metal-bound Bibles....
(Reality check: Even the book "Saving Sprite" saved a life-- kid had it in his leg pocket, and it took shrapnel that would've had him bleeding out before help could get there.)
Posted by: Foxfier at August 18, 2008 03:28 PM (3aOlt)
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As Ace has pointed out there will never be proof or disproof of this story. The left wants to sow doubt about McCain's authenticity as a war hero because their man is slowly sinking in public esteem, and the polls. The people who suffered in prison with John McCain, including a medal of honar winner, have had plenty of time to give him up as a liar if they had wanted to, and have not. The people who knew Kerry had no qualms about torching him. Even Micheal Moore, a propagandist for the left of the first rank, has recently called him a liar. The left would do better to try and build up their guy but have little to work with.And, ever since Watergate, the epitomy of journalistic glory has been destruction of a president. McCain is not yet there but one can see already how he will be treated by these pathetic losers if he wins.
Posted by: mytralman at August 18, 2008 03:54 PM (k+clE)
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Well? Did he lift it, or didn't he?
http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=11080
I vote: yes.
Posted by: joeyess at August 18, 2008 04:00 PM (oOH72)
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 18, 2008 04:02 PM (HcgFD)
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Keep up the great work!
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Thanks!
Steve
Posted by: Steve at August 18, 2008 04:09 PM (PIEdX)
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I have a suggestion.
Try, just try, having a debate without calling anyone names. No 'Obamatard' or 'Bushie'.
You might find it's just a little more civil. You might also find that it compels you to look for facts instead of calling names. This could help both sides.
Posted by: Keith at August 18, 2008 04:21 PM (MRpPP)
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How amusing that the guy they found to back up the sandal in the dirt story is named "Swindle."
Posted by: pinko at August 18, 2008 04:29 PM (kj6mz)
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It is truly hilarious to see the Left asserting that McCain is insufficiently authentic in his biography. Barry knows better. You see it in his answer about Thomas on the SC. He began to say Thomas was "not qualified" but choked it back at the last and filibustered out a rambling diversionary soliloquy to obscure it because The Big O could not get elected dog catcher on his qualifications. Likewise, Barry wants to put biography off limits because he has none and McCain has, as they say, bookoo.
"another fortunate son who was handed everything he ever wanted as he partied his way through life without a care. His lust for power has led him to say anything he believes will get him elected."
Shwuh? How did Kerry get tied up in this? Sorry Charlie. It is Barry who has had everything handed to him, who has never taken a serious challenge in life nor risen to one thrust upon him. From his prep school days to his affirmative action career Barry has never done, nor even attempted, a noteworthy thing. Everyone knows this. Everyone. But let the anti-American faction have its way. Let them screech from the highest tower what they truly believe. It is only through obscurity that they have prosepered so well so far in this nation. Sunlight is disinfecting.
Posted by: megapotamus at August 19, 2008 01:39 PM (LF+qW)
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The only real question here is whether or not you think that McCain stole Solzhenitsyn's story because his work (Gulag Archipelgo)containing the story was printed in 1973. Given the fact, that McCain is a big fan of Solzhenitsyn, it would appear that he did steal the story. If not the McCain should elaborate and verify this story in the press.
Posted by: David at August 19, 2008 02:44 PM (nQLtm)
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Other than the fact that Solzhenitzyn
never wrote such a story, I might agree with you. Wasn't in Gulag Archipelago, or anything else he ever wrote. The fable was created by someone else and attributed to him. McCain can't "steal" something Solzhenitzyn never wrote.
Combine important fact that with multiple personal accounts of those who have heard McCain tell his story as far back as 1971, and reading of similar instances recounted by other North Vietnamese POWs, and what we have here is a bunch of folks that are looking very, very foolish right about now.
Idiot-in-Chief? Andrew Sullivan, who at last count has written something like a dozen blog posts trying to claim McCain lies/stole the story from Solzhenitzyn, and
buried the post admitting that there is no evidence Solzhenitzyn ever wrote such a story--sans any sort of apology or admission he was wrong.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 19, 2008 03:04 PM (xNV2a)
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July 11, 2008
PZ Myers: Save Me From Their Freedom of Speech
So here is a philosophical question for you.
A university employee—an associate biology professor, if that matters— has gone out of his way to publicly pronounce his intention to desecrate a core religious symbol of a well-established religion, and promises to post pictures of that desecration to a personal web site.
Should that associate professor be surprised if outraged followers of that religion—or people of other religions, or no religion at all—find that his pledge of desecration is offensive? Should he be amazed that a common response to his intentional affront be a call to have his position with the university terminated? Should his position be terminated?
Such is the situation for PZ Myers of the University of Minnesota-Morris, who went well out of his way in protesting a college student's misuse of an Eucharist (consecrated communion wafer) by blasting the Catholic faith in particular (and Christians in general), asking readers to steal and send him a Eucharist, which he would then desecrate:
Can anyone out there score me some consecrated communion wafers? There's no way I can personally get them — my local churches have stakes prepared for me, I'm sure — but if any of you would be willing to do what it takes to get me some, or even one, and mail it to me, I'll show you sacrilege, gladly, and with much fanfare. ...
...[I] will instead treat it with profound disrespect and heinous cracker abuse, all photographed and presented here on the web. I shall do so joyfully and with laughter in my heart...
I know this probably comes as a shock to many of you, but Myers' intolerance and contempt has him in a bit of hot water. He is receiving threats, and University President Robert Bruininks (email) has been getting messages calling for Myers to be terminated.
In an attempt to rally a defense of his actions, Myers is hoping to inspire a letter-writing campaign of his own in an attempt to save his job.
It's all quite interesting.
Apparently Myers thinks freedom of speech is the freedom to use that speech to abuse others and call for their beliefs to be mocked and violated, without any consequences.
Vox Day has an amusing take on the matter, while a smattering of liberal blogs (including a generally reasonable post by Jeff Fecke) have lept to Myers' defense.
My own response to Mr. Myers would be that while he does have the freedom of speech, he is not free from responsibility for his speech. He has the right to say what he wants (with all the usual caveats), but others also have the right to express their opinions in response, including calling for his firing.
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1
Myers is a well known atheist I believe. Similar to Richard Dawkins
Posted by: Luthien at July 11, 2008 10:14 AM (ABp8Z)
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He may declaim as an atheist, but I'd say he's more akin to a member of The Church of the Heartaching Gobsmack: aka "anti-Christianists."
I seem to be unable to find any reference to this guy similarly going after the faith that might, you know, earn him an 'honest to Allah' fatwa.
But angry e-mails? THAT'S OPPRESSION!
Posted by: TC@LeatherPenguin at July 11, 2008 10:33 AM (EFVIP)
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I'm continually amazed that some people think their free speech rights mean no one is allowed to respond, or that their rights mean no one may launch counter-arguments, or counter-demonstrations.
Notice, the point of this little exercise was to PROVOKE a reaction from the Catholic Church by desecrating what we hold most sacred. That the Church will not react violently is a given. Not being the bloodshed and jihad types, this reduces our reaction to calling for some other form of penalty for incivility and bigotry.
Termination of employment seems to be the norm for other people who exercise their free speech rights in ways offensive to other groups of people...so how is this reaction surprising to liberals? Don't they routinely call for the firing of people who use racial slurs? Was Don Imus' firing opposed by these groups now defending the professor? If not, then they're hypocrites.
But furthermore, almost all Universities have codes as to what can be said with impunity and this certainly smacks of a person in authority creating "a hostile environment" for students who may happen to be Catholic Christians. By their own liberal rules and regulations, this professor ought to be terminated.
Posted by: John at July 11, 2008 10:38 AM (xgQeg)
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So death threats are protected speech?
News to me!
Posted by: Ralph Kramden at July 11, 2008 11:00 AM (8ZPuR)
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TC makes a good point. Does anybody seriously think this buffoon would desecrate a Koran? Of course not; I mean, he may be an atheist but he he isn't suicidal. This kind of highly selective, low-cost, bogus "bravery" is almost as offensive to me, as a Catholic, as the proposed act of desecration itself.
Posted by: Paco at July 11, 2008 11:44 AM (4uo47)
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I suspect that's UofM MORRIS, not Norris.
Posted by: Norseman at July 11, 2008 11:50 AM (+fQD/)
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PZ Myers: Living proof that ownership of a Ph.D. guarantees neither wisdom nor intelligence in it's holder.
Dr. Myers still hasn't figured out that the First Amendment guarantees, within certain limits, free speech. However, it doesn't guarantee that he won't act and sound like a damn fool.
Posted by: MarkJ at July 11, 2008 12:05 PM (IKzfP)
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In the old days professors were supposed to..uhh..teach rather than make political statements. Shocking, I know.
Welcome to the brave new world where castoff professors (UofM Norris is a backwater, I know, I attended there) make a name for themselves by chattering on the rooftop.
Posted by: Hank C. at July 11, 2008 12:15 PM (MQVqX)
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Jesus Christ, CY! I never thought I'd see you condoning death threats, no matter how idiotic the provocation (and yes, the provocation is idiotic).
Posted by: Cernig at July 11, 2008 01:07 PM (82jHj)
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I in no way condone or will condone, any death threats, and resent the false implication that I do or will.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at July 11, 2008 01:10 PM (xNV2a)
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The beautiful thing about this country is that this man has the right to do this out in the open. Death threats are way over the line, but refusing of donations, not sending your kids to this school and not purchasing any products liscensed or even remotely dealing with this college are very appropriate.
I agree that this guy is a coward plane and simple. Throw in a Koran, a Torah and any other wholy book you can think of and I will have the utmost respect for him, I still wouldn't agree with him, but you would have to respect his bravery. But just a "Jeezit", that's like defying DC's gun ban with a pee shooter..
Posted by: Cincinnatus at July 11, 2008 01:18 PM (X4hru)
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Just another strong argument for abolishing the "tenure" scam--no more and no less important (or memorable) that the guy (don't remember its name) that did the Crucifix-in-urine thing.
Posted by: Larry Sheldon at July 11, 2008 01:22 PM (OmeRL)
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CY, I'm glad to hear it. But you did gloss over them. In your post you mentioned threats, not death threats (4 just today, apparently) and quickly passed to other subjects without further comment. Were we meant to infer your stance from that?
Posted by: Cernig at July 11, 2008 01:25 PM (82jHj)
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Cernig,
I long ago learned that people will infer what they want to infer about what I write, and are often willing to twist even the most straightforward comments, or even lack of comments, into something else entirely.
My post was in response to (1) Myer's quite purposeful intention of trying to infuriate Catholics and Christians, and (2) his apparent surprise that the might have to defend himself with a letter-writing campaign to save his job in response to asinine behavior he thought would cause others anguish at no cost to himself.
Death threats over speech issues are offensive to the super-majority us on the right and left to the point I regard it as self-evident.
Perhaps I've overestimated.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at July 11, 2008 01:36 PM (xNV2a)
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Myers is doing this because he wants attention. Don't give him any.
Posted by: Pat at July 11, 2008 02:11 PM (0suEp)
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Would his claims and promises mentioned not be covered under the "fighting words" doctrine?
He is in fact doing this to enrage and invoke a response in a populace.
Posted by: Matt at July 11, 2008 04:31 PM (rHW2R)
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Cernig, while Myers has claimed to have received death threats via e-mail, I've noticed he has not posted any of them, to publicly out the alleged malefactors.
I know that if I was in his supposed situation, I'd be blasting that crap all over the place.
Posted by: TC@LeatherPenguin at July 11, 2008 04:34 PM (EFVIP)
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... and I'd be including every bit of routing data, because I'd be threatening lawsuits against the originating ISP.
But that's just me.
Posted by: TC@LeatherPenguin at July 11, 2008 04:35 PM (EFVIP)
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Cernig, you've mentioned death threats twice now, yet I don't see any condemnation of those threats or those who made them from YOU, either. This is, of course, the exact same accusation you're leveling against CY.
Et tu, Brute?
By the way, and for the record, I deplore any real death threats and support the apprehension and punishment of those who make them.
Posted by: C-C-G at July 11, 2008 05:38 PM (n8vfc)
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Catholicism is a pseudo-Christian cult of virgin worship and thinly-disguised paganism grafted to ancient Aramaic-Jewish ritual. Catholicism is not Christianity. They can keep their crackers. And PJ should be free to do whatever he wishes with their crackers. The guy does not deserve death threats; he deserves a promotion, a raise, and the resources to seek revenge on those who threaten him.
Posted by: James Limbaugh at July 11, 2008 05:58 PM (pMUb/)
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I'm disappointed in the CY crowd that the first commenter in this thread is some kind of Jew hating crank and nobody called him out.
Actually, if you want to know the history of so-called "desecration of the host", it was just one of many medieval libels that led to the murder of Jews. Jews were alleged to have stolen communion artifacts and then supposedly "recrucified" Jesus by abusing the wafers. The idiocy of this particular lie is that it presupposes that Jews believe in the concept of transubstantiation, which of course they don't.
The simple fact is that a professor at a public university should have the religious freedom to be sacrilegious. I'm quite sure that had he defaced a Koran, the posters here would be defending him.
It might be offensive for a professor to desecrate a Torah scroll, a Quran or the communion wafers, but not believing in someone else's sacred objects should not be a firing offense in America.
Posted by: Bozoer Rebbe at July 11, 2008 06:26 PM (R4dbB)
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[Posted by James Limbaugh at July 11, 2008 05:58 PM]
Merely your opinion, but I'll defend to the death your right to show by your remarks that you are ignorant and uncivil.
Actually, the Church might have good ground on which to pursue in civil court the breaking of an implicit contract, if Myers were to desecrate an Eucharist he received at a Mass during Communion.
Posted by: Dusty at July 11, 2008 07:21 PM (GJLeQ)
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Do Catholics ever think about what happens to the host a few hours after they swallow it?
PZ Myers has previously offended Muslims,Jews, Mormons and Scientologists. But you guys feel the call to stand up for his latest "victims" because he threatened a cracker.
Why doesn't this surprise me?
Posted by: bargal20 at July 12, 2008 02:26 AM (328lM)
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Jesus Christ, CY! I never thought I'd see you condoning death threats, no matter how idiotic the provocation (and yes, the provocation is idiotic).
I thought I'd reproduce that in full just to have another opportunity to savor the blazing stupidity in that comment. Way to go, Cernig. You know, I never thought I'd see you wearing a tutu with a wedding veil and walking down the aisle with a giraffe, but I guess life is full of little surprises.
Posted by: Pablo at July 12, 2008 09:18 AM (yTndK)
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Shows the difference between somme college professors and many working professionals. The rest of us know that what we do outside of work can and sometimes does affect our careers.
Spare me the "First Amendment" diatribes. That protects stupid speech from the government, not from irate employers. As an professional engineer, then later as a manager, and now as an executive, I represent my firm / organization / employer to at least some degree. If I embarass them, I expect consequences. If I go too far, I expect termination.
If I post an anonymous blog entry, I can reasonably divorce my online persona from my professional identity. But I would never use my real title in anything that might be considered offensive or uncivil, or if I did, I would expect consequences.
This staggering pile of human stupidity identifies himself as a professor and NAMES HIS EMPLOYER on the VERY SAME web page that is extraordinarily offensive to a significant segment of the population. It's not like those irate readers even SEARCHED for his employers in an attempt to "get him," Captain Stupid put it right there on the page.
In an educational setting, I'd consider what he wrote perfectly analogous to writing racial epithets (religion and race are BOTH OCR items, thank you very much). There is, and should no protection for this idiot under the circumstances.
Would you defend his railing against a racial group while simultaneously proclaiming his employer ? Or attacking women ?
Fire his sorry butt. Not just for being offensive, but for being too stupid to ever teach others. . .
Posted by: 1charlie2 at July 12, 2008 10:40 AM (pDkg5)
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Seems to me like John Yoo would be more deserving of your ire. Real people were hurt by his fraud of a "legal finding" and real damage to the country was done by enabling the Bush Administration to engage in torture and an assault on the constitution.
Posted by: knowdoubt at July 12, 2008 12:15 PM (a1t9w)
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This is akin to me showing up in uniform to a political rally and laying claim to supporting a certain political party as a member of the Armed Services.
Just like the military, a university is not a political setting, and as such, you can not claim support or act as a representative of something while acting within your profession.
Could I go in civies and back someone? Yes, but by doing that I would be doing it as an individual, not as a member.
That is something that people often forget.
Posted by: Matt at July 12, 2008 02:25 PM (rHW2R)
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CY-
I noticed the lack of publishing of these supposed threats, and a lack of police support.
This is the same ass who tried to gate crash a movie after announcing he'd try to disrupt any showing of it--then whined when he got booted.
Posted by: Foxfier at July 12, 2008 06:12 PM (3aOlt)
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"My own response to Mr. Myers would be that while he does have the freedom of speech, he is not free from responsibility for his speech."
He's getting death threats dude.
Posted by: yos at July 12, 2008 06:15 PM (vpZTJ)
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yos, a minor clarification:
He
says he is getting death threats. He hasn't released any of them to the public yet, so we cannot be sure if he is or not.
And, before you start bloviating that no one would make a false claim like that, let me remind you of
the student who faked having swastikas drawn on her door.
So we know that people will make false claims of crimes for publicity, which might just be what this is.
NOTE: I am not saying that Mr. Myers is faking this, only that until the death threats are confirmed either by him publishing them or the police stating that they are real, the possibility of a hoax is still open. So don't go accusing me of something I am not saying, cause it'll go over about as well as Mondale's promise to raise taxes.
Posted by: C-C-G at July 12, 2008 07:46 PM (n8vfc)
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In an educational setting, I'd consider what he wrote perfectly analogous to writing racial epithets (religion and race are BOTH OCR items, thank you very much). There is, and should no protection for this idiot under the circumstances.
People are protected under EEOC rules and laws, not religions or ritual items.
What part of not accepting another religion's sacraments is "perfectly analogous" to racial epithets? Some people think Jews not eating cheeseburgers is silly. Others think that symbolic deiphagy and believing that crackers become the body of a dead Jew is silly. Neither thought is akin to denigrating a human being.
Would you defend his railing against a racial group while simultaneously proclaiming his employer ? Or attacking women ?
He never attacked any people, just made fun of a cracker. Let the wafer file a claim under Title VII if it can. Unlike, let's say, scheduling exams on Yom Kippur, nothing the professor has done discriminates against members of a faith.
As was pointed out, in light of the truly vile history of the "desecration of the host", when Jews were killed after being falsely accused of not treating your crackers with sufficient reverence, your hysterical reaction gives one pause. Would you kill someone over mistreating your church's crackers?
I'd be saddened if someone defaced a Torah scroll, but it's within Americans' rights to do exactly that, even if it may hurt my feelings.
Religious freedom is the right to be sacrilegious. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the founding fathers. If a professor must abide by others' religious sentiments he or she has no academic freedom.
I'm quite sure that had the professor said disparaging things about Muslim artifacts you'd be defending his right to do so.
Posted by: Johan Amedeus Metesky at July 12, 2008 08:37 PM (v+K7k)
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Fire his sorry butt. Not just for being offensive, but for being too stupid to ever teach others. . .
Posted by 1charlie2 at July 12, 2008 10:40 AM
Well said.
Posted by: Dusty at July 12, 2008 09:48 PM (GJLeQ)
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"He's getting death threats dude."
Please. I got death threats when I organized my first open carry dinner. If he received them then he should deal with them the same way any other honest man deals with them. But this is not exactly about the death threats. This is about his whining about people calling for his job.
"He never attacked any people, just made fun of a cracker."
Dunce... His intent is the same as an attack against them. Now he is free to do as he wishes to that cracker, and he can say whatever he feels about a religion, but to call for others to stop voicing their opinions on his statements is just as bad as someone taping his mouth shut.
Posted by: Matt at July 12, 2008 10:15 PM (rHW2R)
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Johan,
In reverse order, you couldn't be more wrong: Yes, I would still be every bit as concerned if, in a blog identifying himself as an assoc. prof. at a college, he was offering to defaming Muslim rituals or religious objects.
The exact religion is less important than that he is embarassing his employer by simultaneously identifying himself as a member of the college or university and working so hard to be offensive to a religious group.
And second, I specifically mentioned OCR, rather than EEOC more broadly. There are admonishments under OCR against religious discrimination, although I acknowledge that the Dept. of Ed. lacks specific teeth to act solely on the basis of religion. As Deputy Sec. Marcus wrote several years ago,
"I hope that you will join me in reaffirming our commitment to the protection of basic civil rights and civil liberties, including the right of students of all faiths to be free from invidious discrimination"
No employer would want, nor long tolerate, employees operating counter to the spirit of that.
As an employer, I would seek to avoid any such publicity to begin with.
Again, it was not that this fellow wrote what he did, but that he would identify himself as a member of my organization and then engage in acts that could so easily be seen as promoting hostility that would be actionable on my part as his employer.
A university or college has a vested interest (and often legal requirements) to be seen as welcoming to a diverse student body, and this would be extraordinarily contrary to that mandate.
Had he NOT identified himself as a member of the university (or bank, or law firm, or what have you), then his actions would not reflect poorly the his employer, and his boss would not be in any position to take action (nor would there be any need to).
As an employer, I have no interest in stifling the expression of my employees unless they try to drag my firm into it. Write whatever you want in your blog, but don't put your firm's name on it.
As I said, this was not the case of some outraged citizen incensed and digging into professor Stupid's life to find his employer and try to get him fired. This was professor Stupid who put his employer out there and then proceeded to make comments that essentially had to be taken as exclusionary to a segment of the population. Had he made analogous remarks about Muslins, Mormons, Jews, or Ethiopian Zionkoptics, it would have been every bit as stupid and career-adverse.
Posted by: 1charlie2 at July 13, 2008 07:14 PM (9kFRe)
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Having been in the media for over 30 years, and a graduate of UMM, I have never heard of pz myers, so I have to conclude that he is a minute fish in a minute pond; and that apparently, is his problem. He wants his 15 minutes of fame so bad that he is willing to make an absolute fool of himself, over and over and over again, in an attempt to become known and recognized as ...well
...a fool.
The rest of us were born with brains; pz apparently was not. The rest of us received good Christian educations; pz apparently did not. The rest of us, as adults, were blessed with open minds; pz apparently was not.
I am not threatening pz, and I will not threaten him. Indeed, I sincerely hope that no one else does either. We should pity pz and pray for him; not get down and root around in the pig sty with him.
While I will not threaten pz, and have nothing but pity for him; I will encourage, urge and demand that the University unceremoniously kick him out. It is my understanding (please correct me if I am wrong), that the University has said nothing; has not repudiated his rantings and ravings and his threats to treat a Consecrated Catholic Communion Wafer (the Body of Christ) with "profound disrespect and heinous cracker abuse".
Does pz have the right to free speech? Of course he does, and I respect that right. But, his hate-filled, anti-Christian, anti-Catholic, anti-American rhetoric, does certainly abuse the privilege.
Posted by: Joel S. at July 15, 2008 03:40 PM (6HaYe)
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"CY-
I noticed the lack of publishing of these supposed threats, and a lack of police support.
This is the same ass who tried to gate crash a movie after announcing he'd try to disrupt any showing of it--then whined when he got booted."
Wrong on all counts. He has published some of the threats, although it is possible that he had not done so when you made your post.
Your description of his being denied entry to a screening of "Expelled" bears no resemblance to reality. He went online and put his (real) name on the guest list, just as everyone else did, and was denied admittance when he showed up, simply because they recognized him. He left peacably. Ironically, the producers of the movie did not recognize Richard Dawkins, who was standing in line with him, and allowed him to enter. The movie producers gave multiple, and contradictory, accounts of their actions.
It was a private screening, and so they could admit or refuse whoever they pleased, legally, but Myers was following the rules they themselves had established and not causing any sort of disruption: he was just standing in line when they demanded he leave.
Posted by: MTS at July 17, 2008 01:29 PM (GHa25)
Posted by: at March 01, 2009 09:30 AM (+Xe1F)
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December 14, 2006
To the Other Extreme
From
Jim and Tammy Faye's kid (my bold):
While the current state of Christianity might seem normal and business-as-usual to some, most see through the judgment and hypocrisy that has permeated the church for so long. People witness this and say to themselves, "Why would I want to be a part of that?" They are turned off by Christians and eventually, to Christianity altogether. We can't even count the number of times someone has given us a weird stare or completely brushed us off when they discover we work for a church.
Weird stares? I can't imagine why.
I'm sure they mean well, but I don't think they "get it" any more than those on the Jerry Falwell end of the Christian spectrum they rail against.
Their response to those Christians they feel are too judgmental is to condemn them. Missing their own message, much? They then responds to what they considers too-judgmental Christianity with a very cavalier "it's all good" approach that I somehow doubt is any more correct or Christ-like. They simply fail in the opposite extreme.
While Jesus Christ never touched on the subject directly as it wasn't a direct theological social concern of the day, I'm pretty sure that Jesus, as a (mortally) unplanned pregnancy himself, would not appreciate Bakker and Brown's flippant dismissal of abortion as something we can "agree to disagree" on.
I'm no theologian, but I'm pretty sure Jesus would be in favor of loving children, not scraping them out of the womb as an inconvenience.
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1
The one on the left kinda looks like the serial killer in Henry 2 - Mask of Insanity
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 14, 2006 02:08 PM (xXVSL)
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So the child of Jim (convicted fraudster, criminal, bisexual) and Tammy Faye (one inch of makeup) is strange.
Stop the presses.
Posted by: observer 5 at December 14, 2006 04:40 PM (X/BmB)
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Their response to those Christians they feel are too judgmental is to condemn them.
He's not condemning them; he's saying that members of the body of Christ should treat one another as such. You're just being argumentative for its own sake.
Posted by: jpe at December 14, 2006 07:38 PM (Wq+/r)
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oopsy doodle! I misread the quote (ie, I didn't read it). Yeah, he condemned 'em.
Posted by: jpe at December 14, 2006 08:52 PM (sLGSy)
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If you want to see more of this kid he has a TV show coming up on one of the learning channels, either A&E or TLC.
But what to Jim and Tammy have to do with religion? They were the ultimate scam artist.
Posted by: David Caskey at December 15, 2006 12:58 PM (xxoPt)
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Ummmm.... Tammy? I'm pretty sure the weird stares you get have nothing to do with your job, hon...
Posted by: legion at December 15, 2006 01:19 PM (3eWKF)
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December 13, 2006
Good, But Not Safe
Months ago, many liberals got bent out of shape over a Christian-themed video game called
Left Behind: Eternal Forces. The game is based upon the very successful
Left Behind fiction series, which is based upon the seven-year post-Rapture period described in Revelations.
Amazon.com provides a brief synopsis of book one, from Library Journal:
On a flight from Chicago to London, several passengers aboard Capt. Rayford Steele's plane suddenly and mysteriously disappear. When Steele radios to London to report the situation, he discovers that the incident on his plane is not an isolated phenomenon but a worldwide occurrence. As Steele begins his search for answers, he learns that the Christ has come to take the faithful with Him in preparation for the coming apocalyptic battle between good and evil and that those who have been left behind must face seven dark and chaotic years in which they must decide to join the forces of Christ or the forces of Anti-Christ.
While I've neither played the game nor read the series of books, it doesn't seem to be something worth getting upset about. The general plot seems to reflect a basic good vs. evil storyline, so why all the fuss?
Cue the latest round of liberal outrage from Ilene Lelchuck of SFGATE.com:
Clark Stevens, co-director of the Campaign to Defend the Constitution, said the game is not peaceful or diplomatic.
"It's an incredibly violent video game," said Stevens. "Sure, there is no blood. (The dead just fade off the screen.) But you are mowing down your enemy with a gun. It pushes a message of religious intolerance. You can either play for the 'good side' by trying to convert nonbelievers to your side or join the Antichrist."
The Rev. Tim Simpson, a Jacksonville, Fla., Presbyterian minister and president of the Christian Alliance for Progress, added: "So, under the Christmas tree this year for little Johnny is this allegedly Christian video game teaching Johnny to hate and kill?"
Both groups formed in 2005 to protest what their 130,000 or so members feel is the growing political influence and hypocrisy of the religious right.
In Left Behind, set in perfectly apocalyptic New York City, the Antichrist is personified by fictional Romanian Nicolae Carpathia, secretary-general of the United Nations and a People magazine "Sexiest Man Alive."
Players can choose to join the Antichrist's team, but of course they can never win on Carpathia's side. The enemy team includes fictional rock stars and folks with Muslim-sounding names, while the righteous include gospel singers, missionaries, healers and medics. Every character comes with a life story.
When asked about the Arab and Muslim-sounding names, Frichner said the game does not endorse prejudice. But "Muslims are not believers in Jesus Christ" -- and thus can't be on Christ's side in the game.
"That is so obvious," he said.
The game is based on a series of fiction books, which is in turn based upon the Pretribulationist variant of the futurist view of the biblical prophecy interpretation of the Book of Revelations. Put bluntly, it's fiction based upon fiction, based upon one of many interpretations of the most difficult to understand book in the Bible.
So why are liberals so upset? Aravosis complains that the game promotes mows down people based upon religious differences. Pandagon gripes that:
The object of the game is to convert heathens, Muslims or Jews; if they don’t come over to your side, you can kill them. – God Gameth, God Bloweth Away.
But the simple fact of the matter is that the gameplay is far, far more benign than many of the more popular video games on the market. In most games, you either kill your enemy, or they kill you. This game allows you the option of at least talking to your opponents, and trying to persuade them to convert to your point of view. Shouldn't that be commended? Not if youÂ’re a liberal, apparently.
I strongly suspect that the real problem of the liberal left with this game are far more visceral than even they realize.
They've grown up somewhat convinced that true Christians are all "turn the other cheek" pacifists, and as such, liberals feel free to mock, revile, and persecute Christian beliefs, Christian symbols, and Christians themselves without penalty of threat of danger—things they would never do to far more outrage-prone Muslims. This game, featuring both non-pacifist Christians and the clear refutation of the secular, "devil may care" way of life, scares them.
This game is a reminder for some, and a wake-up call to others, that the God of Christianity, as C.S. Lewis once alluded, is good, but not safe. No wonder they are terrified.
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1
Where's the outrage for the Grand Theft Auto series?
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 13, 2006 01:31 PM (cqZXM)
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I grew up in the Methodist chuch and have been a life long conservative. But Christian activities lately have begun to concern me. This game tries to mix violence with religion which should be avoided. However, we need to tone down religion in general. I think that the conservative movement has been killed by the Christians trying to push moral objectives on the rest of us. Just as the liberals are trying to push government interference in our lives in general. Both seem the same to me.
Posted by: David Caskey at December 13, 2006 02:04 PM (xxoPt)
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Retired Navy, there has been plenty of outrage over Grand Theft Auto over the years. I work in the schools, and I've heard the outrage ever since the games first came out.
About the God game, though: let's hear it for the followers of the Prince of Peace! "Thou Shalt Mow Them Down!" Isn't that one of the Commandments?
Posted by: Doc Washboard at December 13, 2006 02:33 PM (/Wery)
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I though you would
never ask:
The commandment "thou shall not kill" (Exodus 20:13; Deuteronomy 5:17), is better understood to mean "you shall not murder," most modern translations of the Bible rendered it this way. According to the Bible not all killing, the taking of a life, is murder. Murder is the unlawfully taking of human life. The command not to murder applies to human beings, not to killing animals or plant life for food. God gave animals to mankind for his use (Genesis 1:26-30; 9:1-4). But, this does not mean that humans have the right mistreat animals and the environment (Genesis 2:15; Deuteronomy 22:6-7; 25:4; Proverbs 12:10). Under the Old Covenant God allowed the Israelites to kill other humans under very special circumstances such as punishment for certain sins, for example, murder (Exodus 21:12-14, Leviticus 24:17, 21) and adultery (Leviticus 20:10, Deuteronomy 22:22-24). God also allowed the Israelites to engage in warfare and even gave them instructions about waging war (Deuteronomy 20:1-20). God also recognized that humans might accidentally kill each other, and he made provisions for this (Numbers 35:9-34; Deuteronomy 19:1-13).
The primary reason God hates murder is that out of all creation, only human are made in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27; 9:4-6). Even before the codification of the Ten Commandments at Mount Sinai the murder of other human beings was wrong (Genesis 4:8-12; 4:23-24; 9:4-6; Exodus 1:16-17). While on earth, Jesus spoke out against murder (Matthew 5:21-26; Mark 10:17-19). We also see in the writings of Paul (Romans 1:18, 29-32; 13:8-10; Galatians 5:19-21), James (James 2:8-11; 4:1-3), Peter (1 Peter 4:15-16) and John (Revelation 9:20-21; 21:7-8; 22:14-15) that murder is wrong.
In Matthew 5:21-26 Jesus amplifies the meaning of the sixth commandment. He brings out that to commit murder means more then just killing someone, it means having an angry and unforgiving attitude towards them. The apostle John elaborates on this by writing that to hate someone is the same as murdering them (1 John 3:15). Murder like all sin, beginnings in the human mind (Matthew 15:18-19; Mark 7:20-23) it starts as a thought, in this case hatred, which leads to the action of murder (James 1:13-15; 4:1-3). The opposite of hating someone is loving them, we should even love our enemies (Matthew 5:43-4
, seeking not revenge, but looking for ways to help them (Romans 12:17-21).
This sounds quite close to the premise of the game, where you attempt to convert your enemies first, and only kill them as a last resort.
Thanks for being a reliable patsy, Doc.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 13, 2006 02:44 PM (g5Nba)
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The general plot seems to reflect a basic good vs. evil storyline, so why all the fuss?
Are you saying that anyone who doesn't convert to Christianity is evil, and that killing the non-converters is an act of goodness?
Did you mean that Christians were evil for killing innocents (the good)?
This game allows you the option of at least talking to your opponents, and trying to persuade them to convert to your point of view. Shouldn't that be commended?
I can't believe you're arguing that talking to someone, or "persuading them to convert" before killing them, is somehow "commendable".
Posted by: AkaDad at December 13, 2006 03:00 PM (1RcP8)
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Are you saying that anyone who doesn't convert to Christianity is evil, and that killing the non-converters is an act of goodness?
Not at all. In the fictional, post-Rapture world created by the work of fiction this game is based upon, you only kill those who allied with the enemy, and only if you can't convert them.
I can't believe you're arguing that talking to someone, or "persuading them to convert" before killing them, is somehow "commendable".
It's far better than other video games, where mindless slaughter is the goal and the rule. In this game, killing is a last resort, when talking doesn't work. Here, you suffer a spiritual loss when forced to kill. That is indeed commendable, and something I wish other video game desires would consider.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 13, 2006 03:12 PM (g5Nba)
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I haven't been a Christian for over ten years now, but I don't see anything wrong with Left Behind: Eternal Forces.
On the other hand, I'm a big fan of the GTA series.
Posted by: Anonymous for now at December 13, 2006 03:51 PM (RMHg5)
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There seems to be a big misconception here.
If the game is anything like the books, the “good guys” are not killing the “bad guys” for not converting. Only in self-defense or when trying to stop the bad guys from killing others.
I donÂ’t doubt that Stevens & Co. is purposely fostering this misconception in order to justify their bias against traditional Christians. As can be seen with all the knee jerk responses on this thread. Many on the left need no stinkinÂ’ facts when they can invent reasons to bash those they deem as fundamentalists.
As with any video game parents should review for age appropriateness.
Posted by: Gnome Chumpski at December 13, 2006 04:29 PM (gF/W/)
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"...only kill them as a last resort."
Excuse me, but you seem to have missed that Biblical citation in your list. Could you reference that for me so I could look it up?
Posted by: Another Ed at December 13, 2006 04:30 PM (Q1Mmi)
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Could you reference that for me so I could look it up?
He said it is due to translational differences. The
Torah gets it correctly. "You shall not murder."
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 13, 2006 05:30 PM (RWCop)
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Sounds real to me. No one is killed. Those that truly believe go to the Lord. Those that don't truly believe have several years of trials and tribulations to decide where they want to go, heaven or hell. No fakery as most in the U.S. do will be allowed.
Posted by: Scrapiron at December 13, 2006 06:40 PM (YadGF)
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You guys forgot one thing: the game itself is terrible.
http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/928956.asp
And as for the whole violence debate thing, the scientific evidence is inconclusive at best.
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/commentary.aspx?id=17554
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/commentary.aspx?id=16183
Posted by: Alex at December 13, 2006 07:11 PM (Ti6co)
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CY, would you be as comfortable with an Islam-based video game in which Christians were given a chance to convert and, if they didn't, were killed?
Posted by: Doc Washboard at December 13, 2006 09:20 PM (3pbD2)
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Gee...
Do I point out the fact that there are literally dozens of jihadi video games and mods (conversions of pre-existing games) that don't even give the option of conversion, and simply go straight for murdering the infidels?
-OR-
Do I point out the fact that this is reality in many places, and so that such a game is superfluous?
Decisions, decisions...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 13, 2006 10:02 PM (HcgFD)
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Well, neither of those options answers my question.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at December 13, 2006 11:22 PM (3pbD2)
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This sounds quite close to the premise of the game, where you attempt to convert your enemies first, and only kill them as a last resort. -- Confederate Yankee.
---
Sounds pretty much like the grounds upon which Jesus Christ was crucified.
The Romans and Pharisees tried to convert the Son of God and when he refused to convert, they tortured and killed him.
I'm a faithful, lifelong Christian and a Methodist.
P.S. Does Jesus Christ mention anywhere in the Gospels that he would kill, or order killed, anyone who refused to "convert"? Does Jesus Christ tell his Disciples anywhere in the Gospels they have His permission to kill a person who refuses to convert? Is it not the Son of God, upon witnessing a stoning of a woman for adultery, said "He who is without sin cast the first stone?" And they all put down their stones?
Confederate Yankee, exactly what Bible are you reading?
Cheers And May God Bless You.
Douglas H. Watts
Augusta, Maine
Posted by: Douglas Watts at December 14, 2006 03:59 AM (8dg5C)
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CY -- Since you seem to be a Christian the Gospels you cite show what you say is directly opposite the teachings of the Son of God:
The opposite of hating someone is loving them, we should even love our enemies (Matthew 5:43-4
, seeking not revenge, but looking for ways to help them (Romans 12:17-21).
However, you say: "This sounds quite close to the premise of the game, where you attempt to convert your enemies first, and only kill them as a last resort."
Loving thy enemies does mean killing them if they do not "convert." And "looking for ways to help them" does not mean killing them because they do not "convert."
Could you cite a statement by Jesus Christ in the Bible in which he tells his Disciples they are allowed to murder people solely because they do not convert?
Thanks.
Douglas H. Watts
Augusta, Maine
May God Bless You.
Posted by: Douglas Watts at December 14, 2006 04:09 AM (8dg5C)
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Middle Eastern names do not preclude anyone from being Christian.
Also If one studies the tenets of Islam, we are all given the chance to convert...or be killed as an infidel.
Posted by: 2cups at December 14, 2006 06:23 AM (Narou)
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Doc,
I know, I was being sarcastic. My mind actually splits on things like this. A game is a game is a game, that's one side. The other that Alex pointed out is the scientific debate. While it is NOT conclusive, it does show hightened areas in the brain while playing games. These areas do change from one game to another, more specifically, violent or non-violent.
Any form of media is a vast learning tool. The brain is an ever-chainging organ and creates new pathways with repetitive actions (learning). While creating these pathways, it just learns, it is up to the individual to distinguish right from wrong. Most can, some can't (IMO). While I don't think games, violent movies, bad websites are the CAUSE of people going 'bad', I do think they Lend a Hand.
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 14, 2006 06:31 AM (a/5fw)
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To paraphrase the liberal response to Dan Quayle's criticism of the TV show Murphy Brown, "its a video game."
BTW, if it matters, I am a hard core atheist. I don't have a problem with this. It is only a freaking video game. Lighten up.
Posted by: ray_g at December 14, 2006 11:34 AM (NmR1a)
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Actually, a lot of the objections to this game are coming from other Christian groups.
Personally, as an atheist, I don't really care. Judging from the reviews I've read it's just not a very good game.
Posted by: A Hermit at December 14, 2006 12:47 PM (Ze7RI)
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"Actually, a lot of the objections to this game are coming from other Christian groups."
Santimony has always been secular, bi-partisan and color blind.
Posted by: ray_g at December 14, 2006 01:49 PM (IrbU4)
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would you be as comfortable with an Islam-based video game in which Christians were given a chance to convert and, if they didn't, were killed?
Define "comfortable".
Willing to bash it? Yes.
Willing to ban it? No.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 15, 2006 12:35 AM (xXVSL)
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Middle Eastern names do not preclude anyone from being Christian. -- Ray G.
---
This would not be surprising since Jesus Christ was a Jew, was the Son of God, was "Middle Eastern" and spent his entire life in the "Middle East."
Of course, I'm not a theologian.
Posted by: Douglas Watts at December 15, 2006 02:11 AM (8dg5C)
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Dear Mr. Confederate Yankee,
Whenever you can cite a statement by Jesus Christ in the Bible in which he tells his Disciples they should murder people because they do not convert, that would be appreciated.
I'll just be sitting here waiting for your answer while watching the continental plates collide.
Cheers.
P.S. There is a specific Gospel in which Jesus tells his Disciples exactly what to do if people do not heed His Word, but I will let you tell me about it, since you are a fairly good Biblical scholar.
Posted by: Douglas Watts at December 15, 2006 02:18 AM (8dg5C)
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Gee, Doug, I didn't know the host of this site owed you an answer. Perhaps you could point out the contract language for us so that I, too can come around to a site to demand action from the host. While you are scouring the site answering my question for me, I'll ask another: Do you have an opinion of your own that you would like to put forth?
Hey, don't worry about me, Doug, I'll just sit here waiting while you look up that first answer for me. But don't let that stop you from answering the second question.
Since this is really fun for me, and I bet it's a ball for you, too, perhaps you could tell me what exactly your opinion is? and be prepared to justify every statement that you make, providing citations to authoritative sources.
Don't hurt yourself trying to get those answers together, Doug. I'll just sit here as the earth continues its orbit about the sun.
Cheers,
Mikey NTH
Posted by: Mikey NTH at December 15, 2006 12:58 PM (O9Cc8)
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Douglas, what you and some others seem to be missing, is the setting of this game.
The game posits that:
A) God is real
B) God is the God of the Christian NT Bible
C) The Second Coming prophesy has come to pass, and the truly righteous have been taken to heaven.
D) Thos who are left are either undecided or sinners
E) God, ever the champion of free will, has given them 7 years to make up their minds, and decide which path to take
F) The devil is working to take over the world in those same 7 years
G) The war is between God's forces and the devil's
H) The people the players are trying to destroy are the ones who have chosen evil. The ones on the sidelines stay their, to the "good guys" until they choose to be good or chose to be evil.
Anyway, this game is not taking place in the here and now any more than Warcraft or Civilization do. The game takes place in a "world" where A-H are the reality. Unlike the real world, God has given people an extra commandment: Thou Shalt Make a Choice, and live with the consequences.
Are/were you upset about the game Black And White? How about Populus? Very similar notions.
How about Steven King's "The Stand". Sounds very much like "Left Behind".
Like any game or fiction, you must suspend disbelief to enjoy it.
What is it about this work of fiction that you must take so very, very seriously, and apply your belief that believers cannot suspend disbelief and enjoy the game without taking it into the real world and going on a killing spree or hate inspired actions against non-believers?
Do you also worry that kids will get their hands on a "Players Handbook" and try to cast spells? That they will think they really can vanquish goblins and dragons?
Or do you only worry that Christians won't be able to tell the fiction of a game from fact in the world?
(that is not to say that Christian's do not play role-playing games like D&D LOL)
Posted by: SCSIwuzzy at December 15, 2006 06:19 PM (Yx9if)
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Not to nitpick one example from an excellent comment, but people DO worry that D&D players will lose track of reality as well. There are a lot of misconceptions about D&D out there among the sanctimonious, along the lines that it is the next thing to demon-worship or can become so in groups of impressionable kids. Back when I was a teen in a church youth group, we were treated to a video explaining how D&D led kids to the Dark Side, with lectures from adults who obviously didn't have the first clue about the game (something to do with demons and magic, right? Sounds evil to us!) and probably even won't read fairy tales/Harry Potter to their children.
I wasn't about to stand up and point out how ignorant the video was, lest I expose myself as a geek who actually knew something about D&D.
Do I have a relevant point here? Well, barely: just that game-players have more capacity to distinguish game ethics from real ones than many hand-wringing adults suppose.
Posted by: Amber at December 16, 2006 06:23 PM (WYkdt)
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November 23, 2006
Happy Thanksgiving
Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good; his love endures forever. Let the redeemed of the LORD say this—those he redeemed from the hand of the foe, those he gathered from the lands, from east and west, from north and south. Some wandered in desert wastelands, finding no way to a city where they could settle. They were hungry and thirsty, and their lives ebbed away. Then they cried out to the LORD in their trouble, and he delivered them from their distress. He led them by a straight way to a city where they could settle. Let them give thanks to the LORD for his unfailing love and his wonderful deeds for men, for he satisfies the thirsty and fills the hungry with good things.
From me and mine, a Happy Thanksgiving to all, especially our servicemen and women overseas. You are in our prayers.
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Thanks, you helped make my day!
Posted by: 2cups at November 23, 2006 09:58 AM (Narou)
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I've enjoyed your blog a lot, so thanks for everything. Have a very happy and blessed Thanksgiving!
God bless!
Posted by: John at November 23, 2006 11:26 AM (tROri)
Posted by: seawitch at November 23, 2006 11:47 AM (RseH7)
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Happy Thanksgiving to everyone at CY!
Posted by: lady redhawk at November 23, 2006 03:05 PM (jx05q)
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Thanks for the leadership and insight into this time.
Posted by: NortonPete at November 23, 2006 04:32 PM (fVuwW)
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Thank you CY and Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours - and all of the readers/commenters here - even the trolls.
Posted by: Specter at November 23, 2006 07:16 PM (ybfXM)
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And from me and mine to you and yours - a very Happy Thanksgiving! We have much to be thankful for these days.
God bless.
Posted by: Old Soldier at November 23, 2006 07:17 PM (owAN1)
Posted by: Consul-At-Arms at November 24, 2006 02:31 AM (I0cnc)
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Belated Happy Thanksgiving.
Rick
Posted by: Rick Watson at November 24, 2006 07:04 AM (en6cM)
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Another belated greeting - from the warmer-than-usual prairies of central Minnesota - to you and yours and to all those brave men and women in the military service to their country.
Happy Thanksgiving and God Bless America!
Jerry Haberer [AKA, Retired Spy]
Posted by: Retired Spy at November 24, 2006 08:32 AM (Xw2ki)
11
Happy thanksgiving! And consider this a
manual trackback since your trackback feature is complainin'.
Posted by: directorblue at November 24, 2006 08:49 AM (z1M8l)
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October 20, 2006
More Liberal Outreach Towards Christians
Iowahawk had a
fall-down funny spoof of a letter from DNC Chairman to banjo-plucking, cross-burning Christian conservatives earlier this week that encompassed the disdain many far left liberals seem to have for religiously-oriented traditional values voters.
AFP decided today to join in the fun, with the slight difference being that they were attempting to provide not satire, but news:
The top US general defended the leadership of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, saying it is inspired by God.
"He leads in a way that the good Lord tells him is best for our country," said Marine General Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
Rumsfeld is "a man whose patriotism focus, energy, drive, is exceeded by no one else I know ... quite simply, he works harder than anybody else in our building," Pace said at a ceremony at the Southern Command (Southcom) in Miami.
Rumsfeld has faced a storm of criticism and calls for his resignation, largely over his handling of the Iraq war.
As is typical of the left-leaning media, they seem amazed that leaders in these modern times pray for guidance from a power higher than themselves, and thought that detail was so newsworthy as to make it this story's lede. Other elements, such as Rumsfeld's controversial leadership style, and an apparent show of support at this ceremony from the military estalishment are far more newsworthy elements of the day's events to most people, but not so to AFP.
AFP seems to want to portray Rumsfeld's faith in God as an unpleasant aspect of his personality... perhaps another reason he should resign. I can only wonder what AFP must think about the 77% of Americans that also share his Christian faith. "Horror above horrors," they seem to be saying, "those people pray to Jesus."
Indeed.
Of course, I'm only speculating about what AFP appears to mean. I don't have to speculate, however, about the contempt for Christians dripping from the lips of liberal bloggers.
Cernig seems comfortable comparing Christians in the Bush Administration with al Qaeda terrorists:
Both the Bush administration and Al Qaida extremists like to claim God is on their side. One of those claims has to be wrong, and since it is a matter of faith which has no chance of objective proof this side of heaven I wish they would both just shut the f**k up about it.
Agnostic conservative/practicing liberal Andy Sullivan drips contempt in his Christianism Watch:
Surely the military leadership can be a place where expression of religious faith of one particular variety is restrained. Especially when we are at war with Islamic extremists, and when we must take every care to make sure our millitary [sic] actions aren't perceived abroad as religiously motivated. And surely military decisions should be made on an empirical, pragmatic basis, rather than on messages from Heaven.
The Agonist mockingly suggests that we should be building shrines to Rumsfeld:
High on Martin Luther's 1517 list of grievances was the concept that itermediaries[sic] between God and Man were necessary; that certain select individuals (a.k.a. "priests") relayed Divine will to the rest of us who were too stupid, spiritually inept or otherwise religiously-challenged. Conversely, the Great Unwashed could pray to saints to relay requests to The Big Guy.
After reading this I wonder if we should be building little shrines on our front lawns to Donald Rumsfeld.
Think Progress was wise enough to keep their contempt under wraps and simply chose to provide the lede, knowing that their commenters would do the damage. Sadly, a Christian Democrat was one of the early commenters, asking rather reasonably:
Rummy is on another level, and should be rightly criticized from all angles and positions, but at the end of the day, how can any sane person say they donÂ’t listen to god? I mean, each soul engages uniquely with God in contemplating divine mysteries according to its innate ability, and this engagement persists for all eternity, for the mysteries of the godhead are inexhaustible, as is the enthusiastic application of the soulsÂ’ intellectual ability.
He was quickly shouted down...
For all your flowery rhetoric, you are very obtuse.
We all know what the general said -that God is actually telling Rusmfeld what to do, not that he is merely seeking divine guidance.
Do you actually talk to your god?
And again...
How can any sane person say that god is talking to them?
There is, of course much more, both on the Think Progress thread (including another suggestion that Christians = terrorists) and elsewhere around the blogosphere.
I personally know very few people that are either moderates or conservatives (Democrat or Republican) who feel that a belief in God is a political proposition, and yet so may secular leftists are quick to equate the religious faith of our nationÂ’s leaders as a trait of one political party. From there, they seem to tie their hatred of the Bush Administration to a deep-seated and abiding contempt for Christians. Of course, many of them were likely contemptuous of Christians when Bill Clinton was in the White House as well, they just had fewer outlets (no blogosphere, no mySpace, etc) with which to voice their disgust.
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What sad little lives the Leftards have. They say they are tolerant of everything, yet the mere thought of people following the Christian or Jewish faiths drives them insane. They cannot seem to fathom that people would not only Believe, but talk to their God for guidence, rathern then worshipping at the alter of Abortion On Demand.
Of course, we know part of their insanity towards religion is because W is religious.
Unless the religion in question is Islam, of course, then they get all tolerant.
Posted by: William Teach at October 20, 2006 02:29 PM (IRsCk)
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Yes, you DO speculate. You do more than speculate, you pretend to know others thoughts and interpret them in ways that play to your own fantasies.
Wake up. This isn't about liberal or conservative, it's about saving our country from fascism, which is where it is currently headed.
Speculation and projection are EXACTLY what you are doing.
Posted by: donna at October 20, 2006 10:49 PM (RsZ4w)
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donna is unhinged, maybe with BDS?
To quote the commenters:
"Do you actually talk to your god?"
"How can any sane person say that god is actually talking to them?"
Speculation was not what he did, nor what I just did. We showed, with evidence, the "contempt for Christians" that liberals have.
The evidence is overwhelming. We don't need to
"know their thoughts". We know their deeds, their actions, their words. I have quoted directly from their own words.
Posted by: Harry at October 20, 2006 11:24 PM (iqg0k)
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I love to run car crashes where an athiest has 4,000 pounds of cold steel wrapped around them. I've never been around one that didn't ask 'God' to help them. Guess I can start telling them 'God' is on break but I have the Jaws of life in my hands.
Actually the truth is 100% of those trapped and in severe pain always ask 'God' to help them. They forget the left wing democratic atheist beliefs in a hurry.
Posted by: Scrapiron at October 20, 2006 11:42 PM (fEnUg)
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Doesn't it bother anyone here that if the quote is true, and Rumsfeld is running his office according to advice from the Good Lord, that the Good Lord must be a hopeless screw-up?
If you want to say something insulting about God, it is hard to do better than say he is responsible for the level of (in)competence that Bush and Rumsfeld have displayed running this war after talking with him.
Posted by: Counterfactual at October 21, 2006 12:00 AM (dPxga)
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Actually for what has been done in so short a period on such a limited budget with so many constraints and so many oppponents both on and off the battlefield a
miracle has been achieved but the angels are wearing camo and doing the 'hard work' the critics don't want them to do.
I do not care about a man's beliefs but about the effectiveness of the actions involved. And given that the US still has a peacetime budget, peacetime sized military, peacetime economy, peacetime damned near everything... what has been done is beyond all expectations that anyone would ever have accredited to the US in years and Administrations previous to this. We are judged by *actions* in this life.
Until the critics offer something *better* and a way to ensure the security of the Nation and fight its enemies more effectively, harping on this SecDef who has done the impossible repeatedly is pure sour grapes. And that makes very poor whine.
Posted by: ajacksonian at October 21, 2006 05:37 AM (VLjJI)
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ajackson - Unfortunately for you, the Bush Administration made pretty explicit statements about what the Iraq war would cost us and what we would accomplish. Looking at their expectations, it turns out you are right ... the actual result is "beyond all expectations" as you put it, but not in the way you seem to think.
Donald Rumsfeld on the cost of the war - "Well, the Office of Management and Budget, has come up come up with a number that's something under $50 billion for the cost. How much of that would be the U.S. burden, and how much would be other countries, is an open question.”
Current cost is now over $300 billion, and those costs are not going to stop rising soon.
And need I remind of you Dep. Secretary of Defense Wolfowitz's prediction that we would not need hundreds of thousands of occuapation troops nor a long occupation because "There is no history of ethnic strife in Iraq." I think we can all agree that there is now.
I think these quotes establish the utter blindness to reality with which the Bush Administration went into this, but I can give you more if you want. So my question to you is that given how much worse things have gone than the Bush Administration predicted, do you still think it is a miracle how well they have gone? And if you do, then why did the Bush people tell you things would be so much better than this. Were they consciously lyng to you or just hopelessly out of touch with reality?
I do agree with you that the heroic work of our soldiers trying to win a war with a peacetime budget and manpower is worthy of our respect and gratitude. But you very carefully avoid pointing out why we have a peacetime budget and manpower. That is the result of conscious decision of Bush and Rumsfeld again. When Bush went before Congress after 9/11, he could have gotten anything he asked for. Did he ask for more troops and a bigger defense budget? No. So whose fault do you think it is that we don't have them now when we need them?
Shall I now mention what we are finding out about how Rumsfeld even forbad discussion of planning for the occupation in the run-up to the war?
So we are back to my original point. If their discussions with God really did play a part in these horrible predictions and policy choices, then God is a major league screw-up. Personally, I don't think God is nearly as bad as those people trying to associate him with the Bush Administration are making him out to be.
Posted by: Counterfactual at October 21, 2006 10:00 AM (dPxga)
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ajacksonian,I would ask you to read the 10/31/2005 report from the SIGIR (Special Inspector General in Iraq) and then tell me that Mr. Rumsfeld is doing a good job. As the SIGIR points out,the logistical problems that existed in the first Iraqi war were still present.The DoD failed to supply te warfighter with body armor and up armored Humvees.
There was no post war planning.In WWII,post-war planning for the occupation of Japan and germany began in 1942.For Iraq,Jay garner was quoted as saying,we were charged with a March event in February.
God help us all,because Rumsfeld is in charge.
www.sigir.mil
Posted by: TJM at October 21, 2006 10:06 AM (F9hZP)
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TJM - I started to write a comment reminding you of all the errors that were made during WW II, the point being that war is by its very nature unpredictable and its execution always imperfect. But then I realized that you are not serious - it's probably better for you to go back to your decaf soy latte.
Better yet - post a reply "wicked blowing away this like totally fascist dude" and show it to the slightly overweight drama major you think might be giving you the eye it's sure to impress. Quick, Starbuck's is closing soon!
Posted by: SmokeVanThorn at October 21, 2006 10:43 PM (SgMbd)
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Current cost is now over $300 billion, and those costs are not going to stop rising soon.
It seems to me the $300B bought, in reality, a lot more than we ever expected. Syria marginalized, Kuwait and Saudi's having elections with women candidates, many arab countries opening up diplomatic/trade relations with Israel, etc.
Anyone who thinks those developments would have happened with Saddam still in power is a damn fool.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 22, 2006 02:50 AM (k5pDn)
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Who would pray to a god who kills innocent children? A sadist. An idiot. Or someone who hasn't done much thinking.
Despite coming from a religious family, I've been smart enough to figure out the likelihood of there being a (Christian or other) god is so close to zero, you're better off believing in Santa Claus.
Religion may have been beneficial at times, when a fear of divine retribution prevented people from raping and killing. Now that we know it's all made up, it's time to do the right thing for the sake of it being right, not because you're afraid to do wrong.
Posted by: Anonymous for now at October 22, 2006 05:47 AM (RMHg5)
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Purple Avenger - Don't forget to mention some other things that $300 billion and counting have bought.
1) An army so tied up in Iraq that the North Koreans and Iranians know they really have nothing to fear from us and so were/are free to continue with their nuclear weapons programs full blast. Given all our real enemies that are actually building nuclear bombs, it was quite the feat for Bush to pick out for attacking the one that was not, but he managed. Well done.
2) The best recruiting tool that any violent anti-American could hope for. Tell me, how many Iraqis now fighting against us do you think were anti-American terrorists before our invasion and how many are people perfectly willing to leave us alone if we left them alone, but now that we invaded their country are taking up arms against us? Al-Qaeda's basic propaganda point has always been that America makes up false reasons (like WMDs) to occupy the Arab world. It would be helpful in showing Arabs and Muslims this is not true if Bush would not do it.
3) A decline in America's world standing and body blows to our reputation for being the good guys. Let's see, we send our Secretary of State to the U.N. to give a presentation to justify a war, and now it turns out that everything he said from beginning to end was wrong. I know, Bush and his people do not consciously lie, they just say things that are not true out of incompetence. How comforting. We can also put into the scorecard that we are now an official pro-torture country. And yet despite all this, somehow other countries do not respect us like they used to. Imagine that.
4) Well, these are all bad side effects, but it was worth it to build that working democracy in Iraq. Oh wait, we don't have an effective democracy in Iraq. We have a goverment dependent on Shiite militias that effectively control much of the country on their way to establishing a semi-theocracy that is also a semi-ally of their Shiite friends in Iran. Sounds like money well spent to me.
5) Even if we ignore the decapitated Iraqis found in Baghdad parking lots every day now, there are still the thousands of Americans already dead with more every week.
And all this for a mere $300 billion, rapidly growing to $400 billion, and with no end in sight. As you say, we have "bought a lot more than we ever expected." And by the way, can you list the "many Arab countries opening up diplomatic/trade relations with Isreal"?
Posted by: Counterfactual at October 22, 2006 10:26 AM (dPxga)
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Got a quote on my site that goes somethign like "Dear God, why didn't you help the students at columbine, ..." (it goes on to list about 10-15 other schools where kids were shot) and God says "Dear student, I would have helped, but I'm not allowed in schools anymore"
Remember folks, those who reject God now will be gnashing their teeth in agony and railing against God in iternity. Yeah, their blatant hatred against Christians is hard to take, but Christ did say that we'd be hated- more and more so as the end approaches. It maddens me to see the angry vitriolic rhetoric comming from the left, but I have to stop and remind myself that this earth is as close to heaven as they will ever get & their future eternity will be non stop torment- not that I want that for them, but it will be their choice unfortunately. Black hearts spew black venom.
SacredScoop.com
Posted by: Nazareth at October 22, 2006 12:01 PM (f8md8)
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Counterfactual - So, you're saying the religious fanatics would turn against their leaders if we stopped fighting back? How did you reach that conclusion?
Posted by: Anonymous for now at October 22, 2006 03:41 PM (RMHg5)
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Anonymous for now - Ok, you got me. I have no idea from which part of my post you get your belief that I said "religious fanatics would turn against their leaders if we stopped fighting back?" The only parts of my post that even could be miscontrued as saying this are:
1) That I pointed out many people now fighting us in Iraq were not trying to kill Americans before our invasion, but now that we are occupying their country, they are. Thus we have boosted the number of our enemies.
2) That much of Iraq is now controlled by Shiite militia and that is not going to change since the Iraqi government depends on them for support to stay in power, and that many of these militia are imposing Islamic fundamentalism and are friendly to Iran.
You will have to explain a little better what you are talking about if you really want me to give a serious answer to your question.
By the way, interesting phrase you used there in saying we are "fighting back". You do realize that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 (It was an Afghanistan operation staffed mostly by Saudis), so our invading Iraq was not "fighting back" against Al-Qaeda and its supporters. The President himself even admits this is true on odd numbered days. In fact, we took resources away from where we actually were fighting back in Afghanistan to instead launch this invasion of a country that had not attacked us. I am old enough to remember when we (the U.S.) sort of had the idea it was wrong to attack other countries that had not attacked us first. I guess you hold to the more modern idea that not only do we get to invade any country we want to just because our President doesn't like it, but we get to say we are "fighting back" when we do so.
Posted by: Counterfactual at October 22, 2006 04:38 PM (dPxga)
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counterfactual- Iraq had nothign to do with hitting us, huh? Wow, have I got news for you- They absolutely did sponser and fund and encourage terrorism against us- a little research will quickly prove that there was a direct link- I've got a huge list of confessed terrorists and intel proving it- I'll be posting it on my site in a few days- meanwhile- newsbusters.org has compiled evidence- here's a short list: http://newsbusters.org/node/7335
Posted by: Nazareth at October 22, 2006 08:20 PM (f8md8)
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I forgot to mention- I've also got a long list of Democrats who vehemently stated that Saddam must go because of the attrocities that he was committing against his fellow citizens- We didn't 'invade just because we wanted to' that is a deceitful thing to accuse the government of- We went into Iraq for several reasons- the most important was to stop one of the worst genocides in history which was reason enough- never mind the fact that Saddam was actively funding attacks against us and other nations- ALL human rights violations and sanction violations which he threw i nthe worlds face for over 12 years- no counter- it wasn't 'just because we wanted to'- far far from it.
Posted by: Nazareth at October 22, 2006 08:26 PM (f8md8)
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Jeez, look at the liberal deflections. As usual, they go to their BDS crap.
Posted by: William Teach at October 22, 2006 08:33 PM (doAuV)
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Guys, if you want to start accusing someone of spreading leftist lies that President Bush invaded Iraq even though it had no connection to 9/11, I think you might want to take a look at this first. From President Bush's press conference on August 21, 2006.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/08/20060821.html
THE PRESIDENT: "What did Iraq have to do with what?"
Q: "The attack on the World Trade Center?"
THE PRESIDENT: "Nothing, except for it's part of -- and nobody has ever suggested in this administration that Saddam Hussein ordered the attack. Iraq was a -- the lesson of September the 11th is, take threats before they fully materialize, Ken. Nobody has ever suggested that the attacks of September the 11th were ordered by Iraq. I have suggested, however, that resentment and the lack of hope create the breeding grounds for terrorists who are willing to use suiciders to kill to achieve an objective. I have made that case."
Now add the 9/11 commisions finding that there is "no credible evidence" that Saddam Hussein's government in Iraq collaborated with the al Qaeda terrorist network on any attacks on the United States and you get the basis for my statement. Do you want to agree that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 or start talking about how the President and 9/11 commission Senators spread leftist lies because they hate America.
I have looked at your list of Iraqi terrorist actions, Nazareth. It is very heavy on vague newspaper articles about Saddam recruiting terrorists who never seem to actually have done anything, at least in the recent past against the United States. Admittedly, I have not had a chance to look in-depth at all of them, but in a quick run through, I could not find one specific terrorist act against the U.S. in the last 10 years they actually accused Saddam of causing. So I ask you, what specific terrorist actions against the U.S. was Saddam responsible for that justify war against Iraq? The Congressional Authorization of force does mention one (and only one), the 1993 assassination plot against Former President Bush. Given that we went to war 10 years after this happened, that seems a bit of a weak reed to lean on.
As far as going into Iraq to stop genocide, I wonder do you also favor going into the Sudan now on a massive military scale, where genocide is taking place on a scale proportionally far surpassing anything that Saddam did?
I agree it was a bit too flip on my part to say we went into Iraq because the President wanted to. We did it for 3 main reasons.
1) Stop Iraq's WMD program. Oopsie, turns out they didn't have one.
2) Show our other enemy nations (Iran especially) that our military could handle them easily. Instead such a large part of our army is now trapped in Iraq for the foreseeable future that the governments of Iran and North Korea know they are safer than ever.
3) Build a model democracy that would be an example the people of other Middle Eastern countries would seize upon and overthrow their own despots to make. Anyone want to argue that people in other countries are clammering for their countries to be made more like current Iraq?
Posted by: Counterfactual at October 22, 2006 11:25 PM (dPxga)
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Counterfactual - Let me explain.
You said: "how many [Iraqis fighting against us] are people perfectly willing to leave us alone if we left them alone".
I figured from this you're suggesting they - the fanatics - would stop killing people, if "we left them alone". Thus, they would refuse to do what their leaders urge them to do - in other words, they would turn against their leaders.
Now one could say that the crazy clerics, too, would quit preaching terror if the Western troops withdrew, but that would make little sense.
Posted by: Anonymous for now at October 23, 2006 11:39 AM (kRkl8)
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September 20, 2006
Catalytic Conversion
Last week, Pope Benedict XVI spoke at his former university, and during the course of his talk he made reference to an obscure conversation between a Byzantine Christian Emperor and a man described as "an educated Persian."
The emperor in question, Manuel II Paleologos, noted:
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."
In the week since Pope Benedict made reference to Manuel II's comment, Muslims have rioted, burned at least seven churches, murdered a nun, and one Muslim leader has even called for the Pope himself to be executed for insulting Islam. Muslim extremists have committed acts of senseless violence in trying to argue that they are a "religion of peace," and seem quite oblivious to the fact that their behavior only reinforces observations made centuries before.
The Pope has issued non-apology apologies thus far, diplomatically stating to Muslims and other critics essentially that, "I'm sorry you aren't smart enough to understand what I meant."
The Pope spoke on the subject again today:
Pope Benedict XVI has said he has "deep respect" for Islam and hopes that his recent remarks that sparked anger from Muslims lead to dialogue among religions.
The pope on Wednesday acknowledged his remarks were open to misinterpretation, but insisted he had not intended to endorse a negative view of Islam.
"I hope that in several occasions during the visit ... my deep respect for great religions, in particular for Muslims -- who worship the one God and with whom we are engaged in defending and promoting together social justice, moral values, peace and freedom for all men -- has emerged clearly," Benedict said during his weekly audience at the Vatican.
"I trust that after the initial reaction, my words at the university of Regensburg can constitute an impulse and encouragement toward positive, even self-critical dialogue both among religions and between modern reason and Christian faith," the pope told thousands of faithful in St. Peter's Square. Security in the square had been stepped up.
As others have noted, I doubt very seriously that the Pope chose to use this rather obscure text accidentally, or without understanding on some level that it might sow the seeds of discord in a world Muslim community, that frankly, seems to need very little instigation to become outraged. Other Catholic luminaries, including the current Archbishop of Sydney and the former Archbishop of Canterbury have supported the thrust of the Pope's comments.
I'm now starting to wonder if this is part of a designed attempt to lead Islam—particularly the often silent voices that claim to be the "moderate Muslim" supermajority—to look within itself and confront the extremists and fundamentalist sects within it. It seems quite possible that the Pope is very sincere in his respect for Islam as a fellow Abrahamic faith. His choice of words last week may have been chosen as a catalyst, and his stated desire for "promoting together social justice, moral values, peace and freedom for all men," is precisely the goal of the Church.
It would be very encouraging if moderate Muslims seize upon this opportunity to look inward, become introspective, and determine that the terror of al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah and other terror groups are not compatible with a "religion of peace." The Pope seems to have created a situation where moderate Muslims can take back their faith from the warlords who have twisted the word of God to meet their own very human desires for empire.
Domineering political forces within Islam are forcing the religion towards a tipping point where the faith will either have to fully embrace a violent Jihad against the rest of the world, or fight an internal Jihad to bring back peace to the religion of peace.
It seems odd and at the same time encouraging that a Catholic Pope seems to be offering moderate Muslims a chance to affect their own Reformation. I hope they are wise enough to capitalize on that possibility. The alternative—the increasing isolation, radicalization and militarization of Islam—promises a dire future for the world at large and Islam in particular if the current trend is not reversed.
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I don't see it moving the Moderate Muslims to correct or change the extremists behavior. It would be nice though.
I think it will take a lot more. The free world is getting fed up with the extremists behavior. One more big thing happening or them going after the Pope and being successful could cause some very unwanted reprisals the Muslims would not want. That may change the Moderates views. Of course, some would go one way and some the other at that point.
Posted by: Retired Navy at September 20, 2006 09:40 AM (JSetw)
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There can be no "reformation" in Islam as there was with the christian church. Unlike the bible, the Koran is the literal word of god, perfect in all respects.
Anyone who attempts to edit/correct it or come up with a version less likely to incite crazies is by definition apostate.
Islam has built for itself a trap from which there is no exit.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at September 20, 2006 10:09 AM (cjDIC)
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September 15, 2006
Uncomfortable History
Several days ago, Pope Benedict XVI recounted comments made by 14th century Byzantine Christian Emperor Manuel II Paleologos.
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."
Predictably, Muslims around the world are upset by the recollection:
Turkey's top Islamic cleric, Religious Affairs Directorate head Ali Bardakoglu, asked Benedict on Thursday to apologize about the remarks and unleashed a string of accusations against Christianity, raising tensions before the pontiff's planned visit to Turkey in November on what would be his first papal pilgrimage in a Muslim country.
Bardakoglu said he was deeply offended and called the remarks "extraordinarily worrying, saddening and unfortunate."
On Thursday, when the pope returned to Italy, Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, said, "It certainly wasn't the intention of the pope to carry out a deep examination of jihad (holy war) and on Muslim thought on it, much less to offend the sensibility of Muslim believers."
Lombardi insisted the pontiff respects Islam. Benedict wants to "cultivate an attitude of respect and dialogue toward the other religions and cultures, obviously also toward Islam," Lombardi said.
On Friday, Salih Kapusuz, a deputy leader of Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's party, said Benedict's remarks were either "the result of pitiful ignorance" about Islam and its prophet, or worse, a deliberate distortion of the truths.
"He has a dark mentality that comes from the darkness of the Middle Ages. He is a poor thing that has not benefited from the spirit of reform in the Christian world," Kapusuz blurted out in comments made to the state-owned Anatolia news agency. "It looks like an effort to revive the mentality of the Crusades."
Would Salih Kapusuz really like to look at the history of the spread of Islam before saying the remarks were "the result of pitiful ignorance?"
I strongly suspect not.
Mohammed himself spread the religion he created by the sword from the Battle of Badr onward. The faith was installed throughout the Middle East, Asia, and Europe by the strength of the sword as much as conversion. From Saudi Arabia through the Hindu Kush ( Kush comes from the Arab root "kushar", or slaughter, literally meaning "slaughter of the Hindus") to Andalusia in what is now modern day Spain, violent jihad in the name of Allah has been the constant companion to the spread of Islam. Islamic violence still marks every corner of the world touched by the amusingly titled "Religion of Peace."
Islam remains the only major world religion that has a primary prophet that advocated and practiced violence to spread his faith. Mohammed led campaigns from Badr to Uhud to the Battle of the Trench and beyond, establishing a long tradition of nearly 1,400 years of violent jihad.
Kapusuz can make reference to the Dark Ages if he would like, but Christian Europe slowly emerged from the Dark Ages through the Renaissance and Reformation; five hundred years later, Islam has yet to emerge from barbarity, a fact revealed every day in newspapers in every nation around the world, as they print stories of Muslims killing "infidels" and subjugating their own people to draconian rule in societies that have been in cultural stasis for over a millennia.
Muslims are of course free to follow their own beliefs, but it is quite telling that they are unwilling or unable to come to grips with the reality of their own history.
Muslims can cry "foul" all they want, but the simple truth of the matter is that the observations of Islam from a man who died 581 years ago still ring true.
How have Muslims responded to Pope Benedict's retelling of Emperor Manuel II Paleologos's 14th century observation?
They've responded with demands for an apology, predictable threats of violence, and perhaps the bombing of a church in Gaza.
It remains to see how many people may die as Islam proves how peaceful it is.
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Seems that Allahpundit was right the Pope is marked for death, the only problem is the Pope is absolutely correct in his assessment of Modern Islam, even if he was quoting historical documents; it is still a death cult.
To defend your recent actions with the argument that since centuries ago Muslims and Jews were killed by Crusading Christian knights is akin to saying that Modern Islamists are no better than Medieval man and to ignore the thousands of years of peace that Christendom has preached after realizing that its crusades were not in line with the teaching of Christ. ItÂ’s damning me to death simply for the fact that a possible relative one thousand years ago did something stupid, and I am to be held accountable for that act. Christianity in a small short period of its 2006 year history may have slipped off the path of its teaching for several decades, but it regained its footing and refocused itself on the true teachings of its founder, Islam, has never strayed from its founderÂ’s word and for its 2000+ year history it has indiscriminately killed any who stood in its way.
Perhaps the disconnect between Modern Islam and Historical Christianity is because Modern Islam is still rooted in the 15th Century and not the 21st Century. If Muslim countries follow the advice of Hakem al-Mutairi, secretary general of Kuwait's Islamic Umma, or Islamic Nation, party, urging Muslim countries to recall their ambassadors from the Vatican until the pope apologizes for what Mr. al-Mutairi called his "calumnies" against Islam, then perhaps we should hold these same people responsible for their calumnies against humanity.
Posted by: David M at September 15, 2006 09:11 AM (4Xncc)
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I didn't know about this pope or what to think of how he would do, but this one statement shows he has more than our leaders on both sides.
Posted by: David Caskey at September 15, 2006 10:37 AM (6wTpy)
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The Islamofacists will continue to target Christian sites simply because they are Christian. The church in gaza obviously has nothing to do with the Pope's comments and should not be attacked for it. Despite this racist attack on the church and "collective punishment", the islamofacists will claim racism and collective punishment the next time something doesn't go their way. How hypocritical.
Posted by: jay at September 15, 2006 11:24 AM (D23Kd)
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What, the Muslums are upset? I dont believe you. They are such a easy going bunch.
Posted by: Web at September 15, 2006 11:52 AM (hHlfn)
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If fundamentalist christians reacted the same way muslims do to criticism, the whole of the USA would be ablaze with "christian terrorism".
That it isn't, speaks volumes.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at September 15, 2006 01:59 PM (6CeBd)
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Nope, fundamental christians simply bomb abortion clinics. It is amusing that the pope be making these comments;, he was a Hitler Youth, the head of a church that colluded with the Nazis, a church that sanctioned genocide in Africa and much of the New World in stealing the land and wealth of the indigenous people, a church that gave the world the Inquisition and...wait, covers up the raping of alter boys.
Posted by: SoWhat at September 15, 2006 03:35 PM (cYuQq)
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Sowhat,
when was the last abortion clinic bombed? and even so, in a country of over 250million christians an act of christian theological violence happens once a year if at all, yet in countries with less than a million muslims, violence is as much a reality as their beards and burqas. liberals always try to fight an argument with "i know you are but what am i" but when we're practical about this, the two acts just dont compare AT ALL!!
Posted by: k-det at September 15, 2006 05:02 PM (aaP7C)
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Dear Zain,
Shut up and sell that crap somewhere else.
In countries where you kill off the those that know, and fail to educate the ones following behind, it's easy to re write whatever you'd like.
Lies, no matter how many times told are still lies.
I do appreciate how Muslims are always yelling about how "If you ever call me violent - I'm gonna come over there and kick your @ss.!!"
People are falling for it.
You can see how much the rest of the world is really starting to love those crazy Islamic folk.
Posted by: Jeff in Kabul at September 16, 2006 03:22 PM (Kap9d)
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Zain:
The two verses you cite from The Bible are certainly taken out of context. The passage from Luke is from a parable, where the character in the parable makes that comment; it is not a statement of the Christian faith.
As to the quote from Matthew, the statement itself is a quote from the Old Testament book of Micah (7:6); furthermore, it is a true statement that following Christ often results in turning family member against family member, a tug-of-war between those who believe and those who do not -- ironically, much like today's struggle of Christianity and Islam. Quite prophetic.
Naturally, if your point is one of how context can influence the argument, then your quotes from Matthew and Luke are understandable.
However, if, as I suspect, these quotes were made as an indictment of The Bible and Christianity in order to place Islam on some kind of moral equivalence with Christianity, then you're sadly off base.
I grow weary of the argument (even the company line trumpeted by President Bush) that Islam is a peaceful faith, that violence is frowned upon, etc., etc. Current events speak for themselves: bombings, violence, protests and threats of violence whenever Islam or Mohammad's authority is even questioned or is the subject of satire (the recent Dutch cartoons spoofing Mohammad come to mind).
In contrast, Christianity and so-called "Bible Belt" Christians are regularly ridiculed, satirized, diminished, winked-at, relegated to the Bible-thumping mountain hick stereotype, and written off on a daily basis, not to mention Christianity's negative treatment in popular entertainment, without so much as a shooting, kidnapping, beheading, or bombing - smart-aleck comments about abortion clinics aside (and c'mon SoWhat, how many of those have happened compared to the WORLDWIDE phenomenon of violence that followers of Islam have spawned in just the last 20 years alone?).
The proof is in the pudding. Add the number of persons killed by twisted human beings claiming Christianity as their inspiration during the last 50 years in one column and compare it to the atrocities committed by followers of Islam in the other. I'm betting the ratio is one to ten thousand, weighted on the side of Islam.
Oh -- and Zain? You can go on quoting the Koran all day long and its emphasis on peace. If the average Muslim on the streets of the middle east believes their doing the will of Allah by murdering innocents or applauding those who do, your words are meaningless.
Judging Islam by what they do instead of what they say, there is only one conclusion: Either Islam is evil, or significant plurality of its followers are. So doctor: heal thyself (and your faith) or shut up.
Posted by: Atticus_NC at September 16, 2006 04:03 PM (0xyYg)
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Zain, SoWhat -
When someone from CAIR recently said that Jesus would have been a Muslim, where were the hundreds of thousands of Christians taking to the streets in protest? Where were the signs that said, "Behead those who insult Christians"? Where were the burning cars? Burning flags? Burning effigies? Where were mosques fire-bombed? Where were Muslim reporters kidnapped and forced to convert to Christianity? How many trains and subways have Christians blown up lately?
Your comparisons are weak and pathetic. The worst part is that you just don't realize the difference.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at September 16, 2006 11:28 PM (jHBWL)
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As an American-Moslem, I know Islam well to tell you the Pope is stating historical facts. I was shocked to see the Pope retract what he said. Why say "I am sorry" when there is nothing to be sorry about. I think it is time for these retarded people speaking on behalf of all moslems to either be quiet or wake up. A violent Islam is not the word of GOD, what happened in the past was wrong, they should be sorry on behalf of heir ancestors. But at the same time, at the age of the Crusades and other Holy wars, Jihad or Holy war was not just Moslems, other people were doing it to. Many kings and countries used religion as a pretex for war, Islam was not unique. It was wrong then and it is wrong now. It was criminal then and it is criminal now. Kids are raised learning Islam and the sword are one. Jews raise their kids to defend their religion by force. This must stop. Time out. Another proof why religions of the past don't work today. The only flavor of religion that we need is one that is in the place of worship not on the battlefield. The Pope should not appologize, other people, like what I am doing should support him to.
Moslems all over the world are terrorized by the fanatic criminal element taking over Islam.
Posted by: Abdulla Bin-Abeeh at September 17, 2006 10:17 AM (B43Go)
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Spreading religious doctrine through the use of force, violence and cruelty? Oh, surely only radical Islam could be accused of such.
Inquisition.
Posted by: Maudiemae at September 17, 2006 10:59 AM (cHGaK)
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Spreading religious doctrine through the use of force, violence and cruelty? Oh, surely only radical Islam could be accused of such.
Inquisition.
Posted by Maudiemae at September 17, 2006 10:59 AM
Maudiemae - get real, that was hundreds of years ago. Compare TODAY's Christian practices with TODAY's radical Muslem practices. Christians left that behaviour behind, the radical Muslems haven't.
I guess you're saying that we just have to put up with it for a few hundred more years.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at September 17, 2006 11:30 AM (jHBWL)
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Islam coming to the West is similar to that old Twilight Zone episode where the alien told the people of the world they were only here "to serve man". In the end of the program you learn that is that name of a book one of them has. To Serve Man - it's a cook book.
Islam is the religion of peace only when there is a single Muslim alone in a room. As soon as two of them get together, if they can't find someone else to fight, they'll fight each other.
While Christians are forgiven their sins, Muslims are not. Christians have 10 commandments, Muslims have 10,000. Muslims have rules whether a man should stand or sit to urinate (sit) which way the bathroom should face, how many times to perform a set series of motions in which direction while praying 5 times a day, can you paint your child's face (decorate yes, animals no), can you let your trousers sag (no). Remember, it's not "no, that's in bad taste" it's "no, you will burn in hell for eternity".
As to it being the fastest growing, that is true. Since most of there adherents are from third world countries in the past they had families of 10 and only 3 survived to adulthood, thus the four wives bit. Now, if only one blows himself up killing kuffer (filthy vile infidels) the other nine are added to the final tally. Because of western medicine they have a net gain of 6 and they're the fastest growing.
Posted by: Jeff in Kabul at September 17, 2006 03:07 PM (Kap9d)
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Wow... I can not believe the number of thick headed racists in this country.
On another note...
"Compare TODAY's Christian practices with TODAY's radical Muslem practices. Christians left that behaviour behind, the radical Muslems haven't."
True, but our crime is just more subtle now:
IGNORACE
Posted by: joe at September 17, 2006 10:04 PM (72+9u)
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Well Islam is a Religion of Peace....
oops we blew up the WTC..
Islam means peace...
oops we blew up Bali...
Islam is a peaceful Religion...
OOooops we killed Daniel Pearl...
Islam teaches us peace...
Oops we killed a Nun...
Posted by: The Truth Speaks at September 18, 2006 06:26 AM (QxKL5)
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August 21, 2006
Forcing God's Hand
This just in from
CNN:
Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said Monday that Tehran will continue to pursue nuclear technology, state television reported.
Khamenei's declaration came on the eve of Iran's self-imposed August 22 deadline to respond to a Western incentives package for it to roll back its nuclear program. The United Nations has given Tehran until the end of August to suspend uranium enrichment.
The supreme leader's remarks also came the day after Iran's armed forces tested surface-to-surface missiles Sunday in the second stage of war games near its border with Iraq. (Full story)
"The Islamic Republic of Iran has made its own decision and in the nuclear case, God willing, with patience and power, will continue its path," Khamenei was quoted as saying by the broadcast.
He accused the United States of pressuring Iran despite Tehran's assertions that it was not seeking to develop nuclear weapons, as the United States and several of its allies have contended.
"Arrogant powers and the U.S. are putting their utmost pressure on Iran while knowing Iran is not pursuing nuclear weapons," he said.
Iran on Sunday said it will offer a "multifaceted response" to the incentives proposal.
For those who have been following these rumors for the past few weeks, the promise of a "multifaceted response" is an ominous, if uncertain, portent:
This year, Aug. 22 corresponds, in the Islamic calendar, to the 27th day of the month of Rajab of the year 1427. This, by tradition, is the night when many Muslims commemorate the night flight of the prophet Muhammad on the winged horse Buraq, first to "the farthest mosque," usually identified with Jerusalem, and then to heaven and back (c.f., Koran XVII.1). This might well be deemed an appropriate date for the apocalyptic ending of Israel and if necessary of the world. It is far from certain that Mr. Ahmadinejad plans any such cataclysmic events precisely for Aug. 22. But it would be wise to bear the possibility in mind.
Iranian President Ahmadinejad and the Hojjatieh movement of the ruling mullahcracy in Iran are so radical that they were banned in 1983 by Ayatollah Khomeini, and it is this sect of Shiite Islam that seek to force the return of the 12th Shiite Imam, Muhammad ibn Hasan. Followers of the three major world religions all believe that the world will one day face an End Times scenario, but only this sect feeling that forcing the hand of God is within their grasp:
...rooted in the Shiite ideology of martyrdom and violence, the Hojjatieh sect adds messianic and apocalyptic elements to an already volatile theology. They believe that chaos and bloodshed must precede the return of the 12th Imam, called the Mahdi. But unlike the biblical apocalypse, where the return of Jesus is preceded by waves of divinely decreed natural disasters, the summoning of the Mahdi through chaos and violence is wholly in the realm of human action. The Hojjatieh faith puts inordinate stress on the human ability to direct divinely appointed events. By creating the apocalyptic chaos, the Hojjatiehs believe it is entirely in the power of believers to affect the Mahdi's reappearance, the institution of Islamic government worldwide, and the destruction of all competing faiths.
Because of the belief of the Hojjatieh that they can, with human hands, bring about Apocalypse, the significance of tomorrow's date sets up in their eyes a divine opportunity that the rest of the world would be wise to treat with all due seriousness.
Considering the magnitude of the threat, I would be quite unamazed if the long-range F-15I "Ra'am" and F-16I "Soufa" and other aircraft of the Israeli Air Force were not now sitting in their hangers fully-fueled under heavy guard, wings heavy with the weight of the most terrible weapons known to man, as Dolphin-class submarines and their American counterparts patrol the Persian Gulf and Mediterranean with their own cataclysmic payloads.
It is fully consistent with the Hojjatieh sect's philosophy to try to "wipe Israel off the map" in hopes of triggering the expected result, and fully within Israel's sovereign rights to respond with all due mortal force to a nation seeking its annihilation. The Hojjatieh seek an end to their world to bring forth Muhammad ibn Hasan, and that they may be able to burn Israel to the ground in the process of bringing forth their Hidden Imam only makes the attraction of Apocalypse stronger.
Do the Hojjatieh seek to end the world on their terms? If is is indeed their plan, I pray that they now reconsider.
The three major religions that arose in the Middle East and propagated around this world all believe in a Creator, One that created All. If these major world religions are correct, then God alone is all powerful, and only God alone can chose the time and place of the beginning and the end, the Alpha and the Omega. By attempting to force God's hand, to attempt to control the End Times, the Hojjatieh are creating a great sin on a scale never before imagined, spanning across all nations, all believers, and faiths. The Hojjatieh seem primed to seek to create the greatest blasphemy of all.
As a Christian believer in a just and powerful God, I feel certain that while millions if not tens of millions could die if the Ahmadinejad and the other Hojjatieh have their way, that their deaths and the deaths of their unsuspecting victims (growing more unsuspecting every day) will only bring an end to lives, not a beginning of paradise.
Man cannot force or control the hand of God. A Pharaoh once tried, and the firstborn of all of Egypt died as a result. If Ahmadinejad's attempt to play God is realized, then the firstborn of the Middle East will only be a fraction of the overall toll.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
>Man cannot force or control the hand of God.
So what does praying for stuff do?
Posted by: salvage at August 21, 2006 10:11 AM (xWitf)
2
It doesn't force the hand of God. A prayer is a request, or a plea for help and guidance.
Posted by: Retired Navy at August 21, 2006 10:46 AM (elhVA)
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Nothing new here...move along.
Khamenei and the Iranian's are definately on-a-roll,
Supreme Leader Calls for Muslim Unity against US and while they feel they've the momentum, they almost certainly won't allow it let to lessen - not an iota.
Tomorrow? Eh...a dud. Beyond that? Hazarding a guess, if Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon...who all knows where else...can be made worse, they'll go-up in flames and the Iranian's will blame everything on the Great Satan's presence.
Case-in-point - one they've been bombing into the Iraqi's.
For our part, we'd better not sit back in our saddle and underestimate their intent; when these SOB's threaten, they'll make good on that threat - something we somehow repeatedly forget.
Posted by: Eg at August 21, 2006 11:23 AM (mw+rq)
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Wow, finally someone someone has the courageous humility remind us scheming humans of the big picture. Biblically, the Hebrew scriptures have long said "..I am God and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure.'" To Islam which says they believe in the Torah but that they were corrupted, the verse I quoted is from Isaiah 46:9-10, which was found within a complete Isaiah Dead Sea Scroll, nearly identical to the more recent. Great point "Retired Navy" about prayer, seems unfathomable the relationship between sovereign control of a Creator outside a created time dimension and yet the many commands to pray, somehow human prayer must be enetered into His way of fulfilling prophecy--Daniel chapter 9, praying from Jewish exile, illustrates this clearly if you're interested. Jeremiah also was told "Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you." I know secular people don't like to hear about religious themes, but some of us truly believe prayer is part of the battle, something humans can do.
Posted by: ER at August 21, 2006 11:45 AM (CBdqs)
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As scary and unbalanced as the mullahcracy are, I found this statement very interesting (provided it was translated accurately):
"Arrogant powers and the U.S. are putting their utmost pressure on Iran while knowing Iran is not pursuing nuclear weapons," he said.
Why? Simply because the US was not included in the "arrogant powers". Now maybe we were excluded from this group because we are considered "worse than arrogant." Quite probably. But it also could be that Khamenei is trying to take a slightly different stance toward us than in the past. Intriguing possibility.
Nevertheless - should they be crazy enough to try to take out Israel or other allies, they would bring "glass parking lot" retribution upon themselves. Unfortunately - as we know from news events leaking out of Iran - there are an awful lot of people there who do not agree with the government. And they would suffer as well.
Posted by: Specter at August 21, 2006 11:53 AM (ybfXM)
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Forcing the Hand of God? One would have the belief that God is on your side and would need your help in his decision process. And the other is the belief that what ever you do is ok with the Almighty, which includes, but not limited to the mass killing of innocent people. It is really scary to think that a country, any country would welcome the end of all things. This is totally different from the cold war. Guaranteed Mutual Destruction, when you were afraid of total destruction and these nutjob's look forward to it.
Posted by: Faithful Patriot at August 21, 2006 12:17 PM (elhVA)
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>A prayer is a request or a plea for help and guidance.
Okay, so can a prayer change your god's mind?
Posted by: salvage at August 21, 2006 01:29 PM (xWitf)
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So it's a communication... 'kay so the prayerer doesn't expect any reaction one way or the other? So if you pray to your god (or God, whatever you want to call it) you're not asking it to do anything?
Posted by: salvage at August 21, 2006 03:29 PM (jQnuN)
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Obtuse....everybody understand what I'm sayin?
Posted by: Specter at August 21, 2006 03:47 PM (ybfXM)
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I'm not being obtuse, can you or can you not change your god (or God)'s mind about something?
It's a simple question that no one seems to want to answer.
Posted by: salvage at August 21, 2006 05:13 PM (jQnuN)
11
The pocket Catholic dictionary defines prayer as: The voluntary response to the awareness of God's presence. This response may be an acknowledgment of God's greatness and of a person's total dependence on him (adoration), or gratitude for his benefits to oneself and others (thanksgiving), or sorrow for sins committed and begging for mercy (expiation), or asking for graces needed (petition), or affection for God, who is all good (love).
salvage is asking about petition: asking for graces needed. Asking petition of God is not to change His mind. God wishes to bless his children. Matthew 7 : 7 - 11 indicates to me that blessings are available to those who ask. One of God's many roles is teacher. A truly humble prayer given freely and in deference to God will teach the petitioner a great deal. God will decide how to answer or not answer your prayer.
Posted by: Bob at August 21, 2006 06:02 PM (9eDDd)
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Can a prayer change God's mind?
Consider this: we pray, not because we need to convince God of our wants or needs (He knows them already), but because he wants us to ask. Why? To help us learn and grow and exhibit our faith in Him, not to mention develop humility. Prayer is God's gift to us, not ours to him.
In the same vein, can we turn God's mind toward ours? No, the purpose of prayer is to turn ours to God's. A wise man once said, if God is the creator of all things, the only thing that is truly ours to give is our will. But he won't take it, we must ofter it willingly. I believe it was Abraham Lincoln who said, it is not so important to know if God is on our side, as it is to know if we are on His!
Food for thought.
Posted by: Todd at August 21, 2006 06:11 PM (QKtQX)
13
Hi and good night (evening, morining, afternoon or whatever you got there) to everyone.
To CY:
Do you expect any less of us (IDF) from what you've written (of course after the Lebanon disaster you might expect our command to prepare an airborne infantry raid agaist flying ballistic missiles)?
We are as ready as we can be, and more. Not only on the offense but on the defense too (since Mutual Assured Distruction is not a deterrent in this case, Weapons of Doom wouldn't scare the Iranians from launching their attack).
As for the defense - F16I "Sufa" (storm) could be used to take out incoming bombers, F15I "Ra'am" (thunder) carrying vacum bombs or GBU's would be used to preemptively take out missle launchers and missile silos. Also, one mustn't forget the "Hetz" (arrow) MK3, the best anti-balistic missile that exists today. As far as my knowlage goes, several batteries of those have been secretly and silently deployed in IAF bases throughout Israel.
And one more defensive/offensive thing - "The Jericho Sanction". It's a part of Israel's nuclear doctrine. It goes something like this: should Israel be threatened by nuclear weapons, Israel holds to herself the right to a PREEMPTIVE nuclear strike against the would-be enemy in order to eliminate their nuclear potential. Of course this will be used as a last resort, but as things go we might come even to that.
Also I wouldn't rule out a ground commando raid against launching sites under preparation for launch (though I do belive our command lacks the balls to order such a thing and I'd be quite surprised if my team [or any other SF team for that metter] will be called to prepare for such action any time soon).
But I guess we'l soon find out what will happen.
To salvage:
As far as I've been schooled in religion, both in Christianity and Jewdaism God is outside the golbal-mortal scheme of things. He is allmighty, all knowing, He stands before all time and after all time - meaning he's out of the loop of time we all liv in. He watches the world like an open book - only He can see it from the begining to the end at once. So in such a case He already knows what you asked for in your prayer (as much as He knows the fate of every single atom in your being from the beginning to the end) and decided whether to grant it to you or not even before the world was created (or after the world was destroyed) - since time is of no object to Him. SO if you go by this belief - one cannot tip God's hand by a prayer or any other action since God, being an all-knowing entity set out of time, has already decided on the metter of that individual's fate and should that individual be granted devine aid or not.
Regards F. Sgt. Alex
Posted by: Fisrt Sergeant Alex at August 21, 2006 06:17 PM (r4IwI)
Posted by: Mike Meyer at August 21, 2006 11:18 PM (AqWK6)
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F. Sgt. Alex
Okay so everything has been predetermined so what's the point? Since God knows the alpha and omega of the everything our choices are meaningless because they are not our choices are they? TheyÂ’re a script written before we were born that we cannot (by your ideas) deviate from.
Seems rather meaningless to me, for a god to create a universe full of stuff that has already happened as far as heÂ’s concerned.
But thanks for the answer.
Posted by: salvage at August 22, 2006 07:11 AM (xWitf)
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salvage,
For what it is worth, at the crux of all of this is that humanity (and many other works) seem to be instilled with the ability and will to make choices. God or whatever label you personally affix to that which is omnipotent and responsible for all is assumed to know your tendencies much as a parent can watch the wheels going around in their kids head as they work towards a conclusion and subsequent action.
When you make a choice that runs against the grain of the desired grand schema, the same displeasure you would feel as your kid beat his sister and set the house on fire is assumed to be present on a massive scale. The kids are subsequently dealt with, hopefully lessons are learned but you still have a bruised sister standing amongst burnt up Barbies and a lingering displeasure remains in memories for some time to come.
So while outcomes are likely known by God, the decisions that bring them about appear to be largely ours so that we can hopefully learn that which is necessary to arrive at the proper conclusions pleasing to God.
I have no doubt that this explanation makes a thorough hash of many faiths but perhaps the above may help answer some of your questions.
I have to ask this; are you on paTroll using the time honored technique recognized by parents from all points - "But why?...."
And if so Why?
Posted by: Brian at August 22, 2006 08:25 AM (6CDOn)
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But back to your first question salvage, what is prayer for?
Go ask your parent.
See?
Posted by: Brian at August 22, 2006 08:29 AM (6CDOn)
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While others have made some excellent points, I'd like to offer up my own answer to salvage. While I may be wrong in what I infer from his comments, he seems to confuse prayer with begging or demanding things from God.
He asks:
So what does praying for stuff do?
Okay, so can a prayer change your god's mind?
So it's a communication... 'kay so the prayerer doesn't expect any reaction one way or the other? So if you pray to your god (or God, whatever you want to call it) you're not asking it to do anything?
I'm not being obtuse, can you or can you not change your god (or God)'s mind about something?
It's a simple question that no one seems to want to answer.
Okay so everything has been predetermined so what's the point? Since God knows the alpha and omega of the everything our choices are meaningless because they are not our choices are they? TheyÂ’re a script written before we were born that we cannot (by your ideas) deviate from.
Seems rather meaningless to me, for a god to create a universe full of stuff that has already happened as far as heÂ’s concerned.
But thanks for the answer.
According to my faith (and we are not all of the same faith, I don't think, so your mileage may vary), God knew us and loved us (warts and all) before we were ever born, and will love us no matter what. What God wants from us more than anything is an individual relationship with each and every one of us, one-on one. That's pretty heady stuff once you get your mind around it. He cares very much about you, salvage, believes in you, and wants to have a relationship with you.
But you know something else?
God granted each of us free will.
He will not force you to accept him, and will not force you to pursue him. He wants to have a relationship with you, but he won't make up your mind for you. He'll simply welcome you with open arms when and if you do decided you want to seek him.
I'm personally quite convinced that he isn't too keen on religion itself, as the process and formalities and rules imposed by people get in the way of the individual relationship. Religion screws a lot of things up (simply pick up a history book), leading to all sorts of manmade problems that get blamed on God. We really screw things up quiet a bit. Because of this, for a lot of years, I got away from God because I confused the relationship I wanted with religion I was a part of. Once I learned to push the rules and the process set down by man for a direct relationship, I felt a much stronger connection. God doesn't want to talk down to you. I believe he is your creator, savior and
friend.
So to answer your questions more directly from my point of view, "what does prayer do?"
Prayer exists as an "always on" communication channel between me and God (and I speak of the Trinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit when I say God here). I don't have to be in church, or kneeling with my hands clasped to talk to God. It isn't about a position of a tone or specific subjects. I talk to him much as I would anyone I love or am friends with. I speak to him in reverence and passion, with want, wonder, laughter and even anger at times, about all sorts of things. Nothing is off limits. How can it be, when he's omnipotent?
Another thing about God is the many hats he wears. It goes with the omnipotence thing, but often people get bogged down in the thought that God should be addressed solely as a King, and (the King of Kings), and there is a time and a place for that, but He is also known as the wonderful Counselor.
Prayer to God isn't about asking for things to happen or not happen. If that is all you use prayer for, in my opinion, you're missing the point. Prayer is a back and forth between you and the best friend you will ever have, the One who loves you more than any human on this planet possibility could. What does prayer do? It soothes the soul, helps you find answers, and provides guidance and inner peace.
Salvage then asked if prayer change God's mind. The short answer? I doubt it. The simple fact is that God I believe in is omnipotent, which means he knows all, and therefore, how could our puny human minds come up with an angle he hasn't thought of? We may not like what our lives bring us, but to steal a bit from Garth Brooks, "just because he doesn't answer doesn't mean he don't care. some of God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers."
Salvage then asks.. and I think he's being quite honest when he asks:
So it's a communication... 'kay so the prayerer doesn't expect any reaction one way or the other? So if you pray to your god (or God, whatever you want to call it) you're not asking it to do anything?
Of
course we expect a reaction. Not quite the answer you were probably expecting, but when I talk with God, most times I get a response, and quite frequently sooner rather than later, but it is always was worth the wait. The immediate reaction one might get is personal. Not "private" personal, but it effects each one of us differently, it is individualized. The problem is that we've spent so much of our lives pushing away from God, that we tend to have a hard time listening to what he is trying to tell us. Learning to talk to God is like learning a new language. It isn't always easy to pick up, but it is worth the effort, and once you understand it, you won't easily forget it.
And ask for what I discuss during my prayers, certainly, I do ask for things. I ask for guidance, and pray to help others frequently, but asking for stuff isn't all there is to prayer. AS Bob notes above there are all kinds of prayers, and I think most of mine are thanking God for various blessings, and asking for forgiveness (which he always grants) when I've screwed something up, which being a normal flawed human, I do quite often. I'm in love with and in awe of God, of how much he cares for us, for me and you as individuals. That the Almighty truly cares for each of us is a lot to get your head around, but once you start to get that--in my case at least--I'm constantly humbled that a being so powerful could care so much about my lilÂ’ old soul. It's heady stuff.
I'm not being obtuse, can you or can you not change your god (or God)'s mind about something?
It's a simple question that no one seems to want to answer.
Todd nailed the answer:
Consider this: we pray, not because we need to convince God of our wants or needs (He knows them already), but because he wants us to ask. Why? To help us learn and grow and exhibit our faith in Him, not to mention develop humility. Prayer is God's gift to us, not ours to him.
In the same vein, can we turn God's mind toward ours? No, the purpose of prayer is to turn ours to God's. A wise man once said, if God is the creator of all things, the only thing that is truly ours to give is our will. But he won't take it, we must offer it willingly. I believe it was Abraham Lincoln who said, it is not so important to know if God is on our side, as it is to know if we are on His!
Salvage then asks:
Okay so everything has been predetermined so what's the point? Since God knows the alpha and omega of the everything our choices are meaningless because they are not our choices are they? TheyÂ’re a script written before we were born that we cannot (by your ideas) deviate from.
Seems rather meaningless to me, for a god to create a universe full of stuff that has already happened as far as heÂ’s concerned.
I disagree with my esteemed Israeli friend when he says God is "outside the global/mortal scheme of things." Not that that is incorrect because God certainly has the long view, but He's also close enough to touch, and even inside you once you invite him in to your life. He's a constant companion, with you always.
And while God knows how your life begins and ends, he does not preordain your path. Again, he granted us free will to make our own decisions. It is because of this free will that Bad Things as well as good things can happen, because people were freed by God to make their own way and follow their own paths. It is the journey that you take that matters. Life is a "choose your own adventure" story with the greatest Author of all there for guidance on how to write it, if you only ask for his help.
Salvage, if you really want questions to your questions I can offer up a wonderful book recommendation to get you started on your way. There is a book called
Dinner with a Perfect Stranger that is a very quick read, and should only take you a couple of hours. I just got done with the sequel to that book last night in about an hour, but I read faster than most. I sincerely hope you find the answers you are looking for.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 22, 2006 09:56 AM (g5Nba)
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>So while outcomes are likely known by God,
Likely? How can there be an uncertainty factor with an omnipotent being?
>I have to ask this; are you on paTroll using the time honored technique recognized by parents from all points - "But why?...."
And if so Why?
Because IÂ’m trying to understand, the more and more I learn about religions the less and less sense it makes. IÂ’m trying to see what you see to better understand the mentality behind it. IÂ’ll be honest, I mock the heck out of it because it strikes me as terribly silly but at the same time IÂ’m genuinely curious as to the whys.
See to me if there really was a god there would be no questions, how can a perfect being that created something like a universe leave behind any confusion? ThatÂ’s why I cannot accept the Judaeo-Christian beliefs; the Bible is a whole raft of contradictions and inconsistencies. I find it hard to believe the same hand that made something as clever as an eyeball or a humming bird would express itself in such a clumsy and convoluted manner. The Bible is such a hodgepodge that it could only come from the maelstrom that is the human mind.
For instance the whole thing about Job has always bugged me, even when I was a kid. Why would God need to prove anything to the Devil? WouldnÂ’t God already know the outcome of any test of his creation? Why would he care what his evil opponent thought about anything? Putting someone through misery just to prove a point to a rival? DoesnÂ’t that strike anyone else as being terribly human and very far from divine?
Anyway, the whole “forcing the hand of god” thing reminded me of one of the questions I have, that is can your god’s mind be changed?
And if the answer is no than I wonder what people pray to their gods for when they make a specific request as from what I understand religious people are prone to do.
If the answer is yes than that calls into question the whole omnipotent thing.
IÂ’ve stopped talking to my parents about religion, it never goes well.
Thanks for you answers tho!
Posted by: salvage at August 22, 2006 10:07 AM (xWitf)
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To correct a misunderstanding....
I didn't mean that our path in life is predetermined, simply God, being omnipotent, allmighty and set out of the loop which we call time knows everything that has been, is and will be, forever. But still - our destiny is ours to forge it and unfold a new chapter of our lives every day as we advance through time making our choices for the good or for the bad. The fact that God knows it all doesn't make it any less real for us mortals. We have our will and we make our fate by our own hands, the prayer is one of the aspects of this will, but our needs, problems and struggles are known to him already. That was my point.
And to CY - I did say that God stands out of our 4 dimetional universe, but I do agree with you that he is close to us, clother then anything else in the world ever could be. The two things don't contredict each other.
And one more thing - there IS wrong and right in a religion and in our relationship with God.
Religion is just a set of man-made rules to solidify that relationship. But ANY such relationship must be based on the rules of common sense (like that killing is wrong, children should be protected, anyone has the right to belive in what they want and etc.).
One a religion strays too far from this common sense it can't be treated as legitimate by sane people with healthy common sense. That means that religions that contredict those basic rules of common sense (like religions that allow pedofilia, call for murder of unbelivers and etc.) should be BANNED. Not only because they endanger innocents, but also because they are an affront to God and all that He stands for.
Regards, F. Sgt. Alex
Posted by: First Sergeant Alex at August 22, 2006 08:15 PM (ri/u4)
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Do the Hojjatieh seek to end the world on their terms? If is is indeed their plan, I pray that they now reconsider.
It worked! Oh, thank you, just and powerful God! We are spared!
Posted by: bad attitude at August 23, 2006 01:52 AM (4K53w)
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Good morning. Well salvage, much of what you have said could have come out of my mouth along the way.
The uncertainty of the world and your understanding does not spring from a lack of God's omnipotence but rather from the lack of ours. That fact really is pretty self evident if you give it some thought. Having spent a few years working away at it, I'll share a few aspects of where my faith has lead me:
You see, as we delve farther into real world knowledge, yet more mysteries unfold. Cosmologists have a running joke. As scientists climb the mountain of knowledge and approach the summit, they are stunned to find a handful of holy men at the top. When asked how they could possibly understand the origins of the universe the holy men respond; "Simple, we have faith".
We are finite vessels. It would be the mother of all blivets (ten pounds of crap, meet mister five pound bag) to fit the knowledge of the universe within us so faith is like that box drawn on the blackboard in the middle of the equation that simply says "and here the miracle occurs".
The real mystery is within the box but since that is to big to get your head around, we'll argue about the wording. Of real concern to many should be what is in the black box but our limitations shift the focus to the syntax of the writing on it. And oh by the way, even when we marginally agree on what the writing should say, what font to use, etc, we'll still write it down wrong amongst ourselves.
As for the confusion, well your children don't/won't learn without being confused and making mistakes and since we're grown up children....
So relax. Continue to ask questions and try to avoid a great deal of frustration - yours and others. This advice springs from someone wound so tightly he makes springs scream but hey, it's a goal. You aren't going to get it all and that which you think you have a handle on is going to be in conflict with what others think. Sometimes that conflict is going to lead to heads rolling.
At that point your questions should probably be whose?
Hope that helps to address some of the issues that underlie the specifics you have mentioned.
Posted by: Brian at August 23, 2006 06:39 AM (6CDOn)
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July 31, 2006
Ultimate Gun Blogger
If it ever makes it as a Weblog Awards category, John Donovan of Argghhh! wins, without a doubt.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16-50_Mark_7
Now THAT'S a gun.
But, you know, they used DU. True fact, I read it somewhere on the internet.
Posted by: The Atom Bomb of Loving Kindness at August 01, 2006 02:50 AM (lpnZt)
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Spaceball!?!
I may be fuzzy, but I'm not *that* big...!
Posted by: John of Argghhh! at August 01, 2006 07:26 AM (9FPYz)
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Even worse, TABOLK - the shot them *at* things. Actually aimed them and everything.
Near as I can tell from the MSM, if you launch mostle randomly, that's cool - regardless of what you hit - but if you actually try to hit something specific, that's bad. And it's worse, because once you've shown you actually *can* hit something you aim at, you are never never never never *ever* allowed to miss. Even by a teensy bit.
Posted by: John of Argghhh! at August 01, 2006 07:29 AM (9FPYz)
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May 09, 2006
God and Man at Krispy Kreme
When I was a kid we went to Sunday School. Often as not, we'd learn something about the Bible or being a Christian through a story pulled from the Bible, and other times, we learned from parables made up to teach Christian moral ideals. I'm old enough now to read things of my own choosing and have done so for many years, but the power to teach contained in a simple parable still never ceases to amaze me.
I was sent the following parable in an email from my father this morning. If you are a Christian this is something you might want to pass along to others. If you aren't a Christian, and are of another faith, perhaps you might find this disturbing, and find yourself asking how your "donut" is paid for.
If you are one think who thinks the very concept of religion is stupid... well, this was written for you, most of all.
There was a certain Professor of Religion named Dr. Christianson, a studious man who taught at a small college in the western United States. Dr. Christianson taught the required survey course in Christianity at this particular institution. Every student was required to take this course his or her freshman year, regardless of his or her major.
Although Dr. Christianson tried hard to communicate the essence of the gospel in his class, he found that most of his students looked upon the course as nothing but required drudgery. Despite his best efforts, most students refused to take Christianity seriously.
This year, Dr. Christianson had a special student named Steve. Steve was only a freshman, but was studying with the intent of going onto seminary for the ministry. Steve was popular, he was well liked, and he was an imposing physical specimen. He was now the starting center on the school football team, and was the best student in the professor's class.
One day, Dr. Christianson asked Steve to stay after class so he could talk with him.
"How many push-ups can you do?"
Steve said, "I do about 200 every night."
"200? That's pretty good, Steve," Dr. Christianson said. "Do you think you could do 300?"
Steve replied, "I don't know... I've never done 300 at a time."
"Do you think you could?" again asked Dr. Christianson.
"Well, I can try," said Steve.
"Can you do 300 in sets of 10? I have a class project in mind and I need you to do about 300 push-ups in sets of ten for this to work. Can you do it? I need you to tell me you can do it," said the professor.
Steve said, "Well... I think I can...yeah, I can do it."
Dr. Christianson said, "Good. I need you to do this on Friday. Let me explain what I have in mind."
Friday came and Steve got to class early and sat in the front of the room. When class started, the professor pulled out a big box of donuts. No, these weren't the normal kinds of donuts, they were the extra fancy BIG kind, with cream centers and frosting swirls. Everyone was pretty excited it was Friday, the last class of the day, and they were going to get an early start on the weekend with a party in Dr. Christianson's class.
Dr. Christianson went to the first girl in the first row and asked, "Cynthia, do you want to have one of these donuts?"
Cynthia said, "Yes."
Dr. Christianson then turned to Steve and asked, "Steve, would you do ten push-ups so that Cynthia can have a donut?"
"Sure." Steve jumped down from his desk to do a quick ten. Then Steve again sat in his desk. Dr. Christianson put a donut on Cynthia's desk.
Dr. Christianson then went to Joe, the next person, and asked, "Joe, do you want a donut?"
Joe said, "Yes." Dr. Christianson asked, "Steve would you do ten push-ups so Joe can have a donut?"
Steve did ten push-ups, Joe got a donut. And so it went, down the first aisle, Steve did ten pushups for every person before they got their donut.
Walking down the second aisle, Dr. Christianson came to Scott. Scott was on the basketball team, and in as good condition as Steve. He was very popular and never lacking for female companionship.
When the professor asked, "Scott do you want a donut?"
Scott's reply was, "Well, can I do my own pushups?"
Dr. Christianson said, "No, Steve has to do them."
Then Scott said, "Well, I don't want one then."
Dr. Christianson shrugged and then turned to Steve and asked, "Steve, would you do ten pushups so Scott can have a donut he doesn't want?"
With perfect obedience Steve started to do ten pushups.
Scott said, "Hey, I said I didn't want one."
Dr. Christianson said, "Look, this is my classroom, my class, my desks, and these are my donuts. Just leave it on the desk if you don't want it." And he put a donut on Scott's desk.
Now by this time, Steve had begun to slow down a little. He just stayed on the floor between sets because it took too much effort to be getting up and down. You could start to see a little perspiration coming out around his brow.
Dr. Christianson started down the third row. Now the students were beginning to get a little angry. Dr. Christianson asked Jenny, "Jenny, do you want a donut?"
Sternly, Jenny said, "No."
Then Dr. Christianson asked Steve, "Steve, would you do ten more push-ups so Jenny can have a donut that she doesn't want?" Steve did ten....Jenny got a donut.
By now, a growing sense of uneasiness filled the room. The students were beginning to say "No" and there were all these uneaten donuts on the desks. Steve also had to really put forth a lot of extra effort to get these pushups done for each donut. There began to be a small pool of sweat on the floor beneath his face, his arms and brow were beginning to get red because of the physical effort involved.
Dr. Christianson asked Robert, who was the most vocal unbeliever in the class, to watch Steve do each push up to make sure he did the full ten pushups in a set because he couldn't bear to watch all of Steve's work for all of those uneaten donuts. He sent Robert over to where Steve was so Robert could count the set and watch Steve closely.
Dr. Christianson started down the fourth row. During his class, however, some students from other classes had wandered in and sat down on the steps along the radiators that ran down the sides of the room.
When the professor realized this, he did a quick count and saw that now there were 34 students in the room. He started to worry if Steve would be able to make it.
Dr. Christianson went on to the next person and the next and the next. Near the end of that row, Steve was really having a rough time. He was taking a lot more time to complete each set.
Steve asked Dr. Christianson, "Do I have to make my nose touch on each one?"
Dr. Christianson thought for a moment, "Well, they're your pushups. You are in charge now. You can do them any way that you want." And Dr. Christianson went on.
A few moments later, Jason, a recent transfer student, came to the room and was about to come in when all the students yelled in one voice, "NO, don't come in Stay out!"
Jason didn't know what was going on. Steve picked up his head and said, "No, let him come."
Professor Christianson said, "You realize that if Jason comes in you will have to do ten pushups for him?"
Steve said, "Yes, let him come in. Give him a donut."
Dr. Christianson said, "Okay, Steve, I'll let you get Jason's out of the way right now. Jason, do you want a donut?"
Jason, new to the room, hardly knew what was going on. "Yes," he said, "give me a donut."
"Steve, will you do ten push-ups so that Jason can have a donut?" Steve did ten pushups very slowly and with great effort. Jason, bewildered, was handed a donut and sat down.
Dr. Christianson finished the fourth row, and then started on those visitors seated by the heaters. Steve's arms were now shaking with each push-up in a struggle to lift himself against the force of gravity. By this time sweat was profusely dropping off of his face, there was no sound except his heavy breathing; there was not a dry eye in the room.
The very last two students in the room were two young women, both cheerleaders, and very popular. Dr. Christianson went to Linda, the second to last, and asked, "Linda, do you want a doughnut?"
Linda said, very sadly, "No, thank you."
Professor Christianson quietly asked, "Steve, would you do ten push-ups so that Linda can have a donut she doesn't want?" Grunting from the effort, Steve did ten very slow pushups for Linda.
Then Dr. Christianson turned to the last girl, Susan. "Susan, do you want a donut?"
Susan, with tears flowing down her face, began to cry. "Dr. Christianson, why can't I help him?"
Dr. Christianson, with tears of his own, said, "No, Steve has to do it alone, I have given him this task and he is in charge of seeing that everyone has an opportunity for a donut whether they want it or not. When I decided to have a party this last day of class, I looked my grade book. Steve here is the only student with a perfect grade. Everyone else has failed a test, skipped class, or offered me inferior work. Steve told me that in football practice, when a player messes up he must do push-ups. I told Steve that none of you could come to my party unless he paid the price by doing your push ups. He and I made a deal for your sakes."
"Steve, would you do ten push-ups so Susan can have a donut?" As Steve very slowly finished his last pushup, with the understanding that he had accomplished all that was required of him, having done 350 pushups, his arms buckled beneath him and he fell to the floor.
Dr. Christianson turned to the room and said. "And so it was, that our Savior, Jesus Christ, on the cross, plead to the Father, 'into thy hands I commend my spirit.' With the understanding that He had done everything that was required of Him, He yielded up His life. And like some of those in this room, many of us leave the gift on the desk, uneaten."
Two students helped Steve up off the floor and to a seat, physically exhausted, but wearing a thin smile.
"Well done, good and faithful servant," said the professor, adding, "Not all sermons are preached in words."
Turning to his class, the professor said, "My wish is that you might understand and fully comprehend all the riches of grace and mercy that have been given to you through the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He spared not only His Begotten Son, but gave Him up for us all, for the whole Church, now and forever. Whether or not we choose to accept His gift to us, the price has been paid."
"Wouldn't you be foolish and ungrateful to leave it lying on the desk?"
I'm not (overtly) trying to convert anyone, but this is a pretty good parable of Jesus Christ's sacrifice, and it might strike a cord with those who have become immune to a message that is told often, but told often badly. I think of this parable and what I picked up in the fast-paced novella Dinner With a Perfect Stranger and it makes me sad to see the 1,400 years fighting and dying going on around the world in the name of a certain other prophet and his god.
Steve in the story above paid for your donut whether you wanted it or not, and while he would offer it to you, it was never forced upon you.
That other prophet operates quite differently, doesn't he?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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W.O.W. I am a Christian, and found myself forgetting to breathe after 1/2 the story.
Posted by: Cass at May 09, 2006 10:36 AM (9fiYr)
Posted by: WB at May 09, 2006 10:42 AM (lFAkG)
Posted by: Bill at May 09, 2006 12:26 PM (3SCoU)
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That was powerful! Thanks for posting this.
Posted by: Nephos at May 09, 2006 01:21 PM (Ffvoi)
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Wow, that professor is really cruel and stupid. I'd never want to take a class with him. I think I'd complain to the university and see if I could get him reprimanded for cruel practices. He hurts everyone in his class and all for no point. If he wanted to give everyone a donut, he could. He set up the stupid rule that kept him from giving the donuts, and then he put into place and even stupider one that let him. I think he must be insane.
Posted by: Surel at May 10, 2006 06:05 PM (b7B37)
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Steve displayed the sin of pride. He's not Christ-like
The teacher was cruel, offering temptation that he could freely give, and providing only suffering to both Steve and the class. He is not Christ-like, but is the serpent from Genesis.
Christ only asks for your belief - but he does not seek to guilt his followers into believing in him. This "parable" is clearly the devil's work, and has deluded the good people of this board.
Posted by: Adrian Karel at May 10, 2006 06:13 PM (Ge4ur)
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Nobody ever said Steve was Christ, Adrian. It was a parable attempting to explain the magnitude of Christ's sacrifice to those who were not able to apprecaite it. You've missed the point entirely.
Interestingly enough, Adrian's probably fake name and proven fake "karelminstries.org" email address seems to indicate that if their is a snake in our midst, it is he.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at May 10, 2006 08:02 PM (0fZB6)
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Story reposted here; take a look. Good points made.
http://siliconshaman.livejournal.com/356324.html?#cutid1
Posted by: Gordon Schumacher at May 10, 2006 10:04 PM (QaVQ6)
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I wrote this in reposne to Gordon, and dropped a copy after reading his addendum on his site:
And yet Gordon, YOU wrote that addendum, putting your words in Professor Christianson's mouth, didn't you? It's quite easy to mock others when you control them, twisting their words and deeds, misrepresenting them in a way that makes YOU feel superior as you belittle them. I think someone did that in the Bible. He wasn't one of the good guys.
It's a small, shallow cut you make, Gordon, but not once of significance. Mostly I just feel sad for you, that you really think you can have whatever you want without paying for it. There is always a price paid by someone, for everything. Those that say their isn't a price, that strings aren't attached, might just be trying to sell you something you can't afford.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at May 10, 2006 10:30 PM (0fZB6)
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Actually, Yankee, Gordon did not write the response; this should be clear when you notice that the URL he provided as his own is different from the URL he sends you to.
There is one thing that bothers me deeply about the story, and it's something that bothers me that I see in too much of modern Christianity. It's summed up in the last line:
"Wouldn't it be foolisn and ungrateful to leave it lying on the desk?"
Now, part of the story, a personification of the redemption, suffering undertaken as a labor of love to give a gift, that's fine. As a Wiccan and a shaman, I understand and appreciate that theme deeply.
But is that the end of the story? That it is good to labor and to sacrifice to do good for others? No... the final bit of the story is "people who aren't like us are foolish and ungrateful."
And that's what bothers me.
Because, you see, many people see no "doughnut". It's not an obvious, visible thing to them. And they have only the word of people long dead to trust that suffering occurred to bring about the gift.
And what is the response of many Christians? Well... to call them ungrateful and foolish.
Rhetorically, I'd ask if that's what Jesus commanded, but I imagine we both know the answer... he commanded his followers to love one another enough to die horribly for them, even if they'd be met with anger, and hostility.
Now, which is easier... to die horribly, while facing anger and hostility, or to develop some empathy, and try to understand others? Surely, a Christian who loves others, as Jesus commanded, would also exert the effort to understand how others might see the message, yes?
And yet, that effort is too-often not expended; I imagine a great many Christians see non-Christians exactly as the story described them: as foolish and ungrateful.
Posted by: John Palmer at May 11, 2006 12:58 PM (PGzrn)
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April 23, 2006
A Perfect Stranger
Ever wondered why only one faith could be right? Where loves comes from? Whether it is possible to "earn" your way into Heaven?
I read Dinner with a Perfect Stranger tonight, and my head is reeling. At just 100 pages and written in a conversational style, you hardly feel you are reading it as much as overhearing it, and what you get out of it is profound. I'm not much into book reviews as a rule (I've done one before, I think), but I feel compelled to suggest it. It really is that good, and that impactful.
I see via Amazon that A Day with a Perfect Stranger, a follow-up novella, is going to be released July 18. I will be getting a copy.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I saw the movie version of it which while making some great points was not really suited to a movie format. Similar to Peter Kreeft works like "So-crates Meets Jesus" and "The Unaborted So-crates". Really doesn't work in a movie format.
Posted by: Adam Graham at April 23, 2006 10:46 PM (qZcpe)
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