June 15, 2007
Liberal Senators Seek To Equate .50 BMG Rifles To Poison Gas, Grenades, Mines
If ever there has been a bill introduced in Congress to ban something based completely on fear and in the complete absence of any actual problem, S.1331, the so-called "Long-Range Sniper Rifle Safety Act of 2007" may be a perfect example.
The bill, introduced to the Senate on May 8 by Dianne Feinstein and co-sponsored by Senators Kennedy, Levin, Menendez, Mikulski, Clinton, Durbin, Boxer, Lautenberg, Shumer and Dodd (Democrats all), seeks to classify all firearms chambered for .50 BMG and similar calibers as "destructive devices" under the Gun Control Act of 1968 and the National Firearms Act of 1934.
Presently, the "destructive device" ban in both laws refers to poison gas, bombs, grenades, rockets, missiles, and mines.
These Senators are attempting to equate large caliber target rifles with poison gas and bombs under the law. Why?
Fear and Ignorance:
U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), today introduced legislation to regulate the transfer and possession of .50 BMG caliber sniper rifles, which have extraordinary firepower and range (more than a mile with accuracy, with a maximum distance of up to four miles). These combat-style weapons are capable of bringing down airliners and helicopters that are taking off or landing, puncturing pressurized chemical storage facilities, and penetrating light armored personnel vehicles and protective limousines.
[snip]
"These are combat-style weapons designed to kill people efficiently and destroy machinery at a great distance. This legislation would regulate these dangerous combat weapons, making it harder for terrorists and others to buy them for illegitimate use," Senator Feinstein said. "This legislation doesn't ban any firearms; it would only institute common-sense regulations for the sale of these dangerous sniper rifles."
Capable of bringing down airliners and helicopters? A .50 BMG rifle must make huge holes in aircraft to do that, wouldn't you think?
Not so much.
Thi is the rough difference between the diameter of a .50-caliber bullet (left) and the extremely common .30-caliber rifle (right).
Now, take into account that a typical .50-caliber rifle is roughly five-feet long weighs around 30 pounds, requiring them to be shot from a bipod or some other sort of support, and virtually all .50-caliber rifles use telescopic sights. Most are also single-shot, bolt-action firearms.
Feinstein and the other Democrat Senators sponsoring this bill are asking you to believe that a terrorist "super-sniper" can somehow heft a 30-pound gun and wingshoot an airliner like a clay pigeon.
The odds of a sniper hitting an airliner moving in three dimensions faster than a NASCAR stock car is infinitesimal; the odds of Feinstien's hypothetical terrorists actually bringing down a plane verge on the impossible.
What of the threat of a terrorist using such a rifle to penetrate a chemical storage tank or rail car?
According to a builder of such pressurized vessels, also virtually impossible:
When asked about the alleged threat of .50cal rifles to his railcars, Mr. Darymple said that they have long tested their cars against almost every form of firearm, to include .50BMG and larger. When asked what happens when a .50 hits one of his tanks he said with a shrug "It bounces off." He went on to point out that railcars are designed to survive the force of derailing, and collision with other railcars at travel speeds. By comparison the impact of a bullet, any bullet, is like a mosquito bite.
It also goes without saying that if terrorists did desire to take down an airliner, or blow up a railcar or chemical storage tank, they are far more likely to acquire smaller, less obtrusive, more accurate, purpose-built or improvised devices already covered under federal law.
So what is the true purpose of the bill, when the stated purposes simply don't make sense?
Only the Senators themselves know for certain, but IÂ’d be willing to bet it comes wrapped in a cloak of fear and ignorance.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
03:31 PM
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Post contains 662 words, total size 5 kb.
1
Civilians have had .50BMG rifles since the end of WWII. Until '68 we had .55 Boyes and 20mm Lahti as well.
How many crimes have been committed with these weapons?
Less than 10.
Probably less than 5.
I have only been able to verify 2.
In 60 years.
There was no reason but hysteria for listing the Boyes and Lahti as destructive devices in '68 and now they are trying again go the .50BMG.
If they get it, they will be back next year for the Sharps Big 50.
Posted by: GeorgeH at June 15, 2007 04:08 PM (Jkcjv)
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I'm all for the ban!!! (and I thought I'd never get rid of that experimental .49 cal wildcat)
Posted by: Fredrick at June 15, 2007 09:16 PM (TcNVg)
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It really makes one wonder if all the pompas
do nothings from Bush on down have lost their
collective minds or they just want to feel good.
Hey guys we got something done..."BFD".They can't
fix the boarder or help the troops in the sand
box but we can get rid of those nasty big guns..
But then a person with some Ammonium nitrate,some
model airplane fuel and a cell phone can do a
lot more damage...
Posted by: Tincan Sailor at June 16, 2007 11:01 AM (L4HGI)
4
"The bill, introduced to the Senate on May 8 by Dianne Feinstein and co-sponsored by Senators Kennedy, Levin, Menendez, Mikulski, Clinton, Durbin, Boxer, Lautenberg, Shumer and Dodd (Democrats all)"
My god, it's the quisling all stars.
This is ridiculous. I can't believe these people get the right to decide that a gun too big, and at the same time you can still buy a gun that bigger. Idiots.
Posted by: jbiccum at June 16, 2007 03:19 PM (Rd4s4)
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The largest pumpkin cannons have a range over a mile.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 16, 2007 04:57 PM (jnC6a)
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Meh. Most murderers won't be able to get their hands on a .50 rifle, it's damn expensive. Plus, it's hard to set up, and you can't be standing up with it.
Hell, you can fire the .477(?) T-Rex standing up, but it'll fly out of your hands and it's really, really loud.
I don't think that stupid gangbangers from LA or sicko mass murderers will get their hands on the .50. If Congress would just ban weapons from high-crime areas (like Los Angeles, New York City, anywhere with a high crime rate), there'd be a lot less murders. San Fran (despite the moonbats) banned weapons, and not a lot of chavs reside in San Fran anyway.
Posted by: the_velociraptor at June 16, 2007 06:02 PM (DqYja)
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If Congress would just ban weapons from high-crime areas
Ummm, felons are already banned from owning firearms.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 16, 2007 10:19 PM (jnC6a)
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More information on your SenatorsÂ’ and House Representatives voting record on gun issues of can be found at: http://vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote.php?type=get_years&state_id=NA&search_1=37
For more information http://www.vote-smart.org or call our hotline at 1-888-VOTE-SMART.
Posted by: Project Vote Smart at June 18, 2007 05:09 PM (Z+KDc)
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Avenger, too many felons in LA still get their hands on weapons and make LA a shitter place to live, and duh, through illegal means, they get the weapons.
What I was saying, people could stop bitching about how the Swiss and Canada own guns, yet don't kill each other, if the US would crack down on illegal dealers.
Posted by: the_velociraptor at June 20, 2007 12:12 AM (DqYja)
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What they should really do is introduce a bill to outlaw birds. These foul creatures have been hitting and downing aircraft as far back as 1905 when Orville was flying around:
"Â… flew 4,751 meters in 4 minutes 45 seconds, four complete circles. Twice passed over fence into Beard's cornfield. Chased flock of birds for two rounds and killed one which fell on top of the upper surface and after a time fell off when swinging a sharp curve." -Orville Wright Diary, 1905
Since 1988, bird strikes have resulted in 195 deaths and costs the aviation industry around $600 million annually.
Posted by: Dan Irving at June 20, 2007 01:20 PM (zw8QA)
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June 14, 2007
Guns and Madness
I'm assuming that many of you saw that the House of Representatives passed an NRA-supported gun control bill yesterday that aimed to close some dangerous loopholes, requiring states to more quickly and fully provide information to check the criminal and mental health records of potential gun buyers.
Congressional Quarterly reports that the bill faces an uncertain future in the Senate, due in part to resistance by Gun Owners of America and unidentified mental health advocacy groups.
As someone who uses the FBIÂ’s National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) to check the status of potential gun purchasers, I have reservations about the proposed changes, even though I strongly believe that neither felons nor the mentally ill should have access to firearms. Actually, it is my concern over the mentally ill potentially accessing firearms that has me worried.
One provision of the bill that was described thusly:
The senator suggested earlier this week that he was pleased with negotiated language that would explicitly protect the ability of veterans designated as having psychological conditions, such as post-traumatic stress disorder, to buy guns. The measure would also authorize procedures that would allow those successfully treated for mental illness to regain the ability to buy guns.
I'm neither a psychologist nor a psychiatrist, and I do not have anything beyond a layman's understanding of how the human psyche is damaged nor healed. Frankly, based upon what I've seen of people who have been to psychologists and psychiatrists, I'm none to certain that the experts have any idea, either.
For this reason, I'm extremely leery about how they might determine whether someone who was once determined to be mentally ill is now "cured."
My secondary concern deals with reality and the law of unintended consequences.
While a NICS background check is an important tool in sorting out those who should not be allowed to purchase firearms, it is simply one tool based upon documented information.
In my opinion—and I believe that I share this opinion with many who sell firearms on the retail level—one of the best tools to determine whether someone should be allowed to purchase a firearm is an employee trained to look for certain "red flag" characteristics in a buyer. For every high-profile killer like Seung-Hui Cho, there are many potential purchasers without a criminal or mental record who should not be allowed to purchase firearms for other, less technical but still reasonable concerns.
I have, on more than one occasion, turned down a transaction after a NICS background check came back allowing the sale to proceed simply because something "wasn't quite right" about the purchaser. Displayed maturity, firearms safety, certain mannerisms, personality traits, or other suspicious behavior can all be reasons to deny a sale that a database simply cannot account for.
Some gun sellers may become too over-reliant upon the more powerful proposed NICS system, and may forego some of the "human checks" as a result, while we at the same time rely on a less-than-precise mental health system to determine when someone is "cured" and once more able to purchase a firearm.
Somehow, I don't think this bill will change much.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
04:04 PM
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CY:
If a firearms seller has refused to deal with someone because something seems indefinably off, does the law as written allow him to take further steps to keep the person from buying elsewhere?
Posted by: Doc Washboard at June 14, 2007 05:05 PM (Q/FFk)
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There isn't anything legally that I'm aware of to do that, and I don't know if it is even possible to codify something being "off," as that is a subjective and impossible to define matter of judgement.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 14, 2007 05:09 PM (HcgFD)
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I'd be very leery of this because what is mental illness? Could it be someone guilty of a hate crime for instance? Or alleged spousal abuse or even sexual harassment? My guess is that mental illness will soon encompass smoker, drinkers, the over weight, rgistered GOP voters, white guys, christians (you have to b mental to believe in God), etc.
Posted by: Thomas Jackson at June 14, 2007 10:04 PM (A2ZNt)
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But what about actual mental illness, TJ? It exists. It can make people dangerous. Certainly you don't want these folks to have guns, as well.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at June 14, 2007 10:40 PM (Q/FFk)
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but we would not want retail salesmen, even firearm salesmen, to decide if someone is mentally ill. I think that could lead to serious abuse, even if it might catch folks in special cases.
Posted by: iconoclast at June 14, 2007 11:25 PM (TzLpv)
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I heard about this while I was driving around on Tuesday-- apparently, the actual text says that they have to be found not to have a mental problem.
In the military, at least the Navy, if someone tells a superior that I seem to be showing signs of a mental problem, they're required to put me under servelence and enter that in my record.
That notation was put in because a lot of vets were automatically monitored for mental illness simply because they were in a combat zone-- if they saw firefight or not.
Posted by: Foxfier at June 15, 2007 12:18 AM (fMX2K)
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The mandatory quarterly update of status should be a relief to those guys who've had bogus restraining orders slapped on them by psycho women.
Ignore the news stories - read the actual bill. I really didn't see anything in it to complain about.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 15, 2007 03:53 AM (COAGI)
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but we would not want retail salesmen, even firearm salesmen, to decide if someone is mentally ill.
And what precisely do you think happens under the current system? Gun sellers have always been asked to use their judgement when determining whether or not to sell a firearm to a potential customer.
Do you honestly think a database in a far-off state is better equipped to judge a potential buyer's basic compentence, obvious stability, or possible alcohol or drug intoxication than an actual person three feet away?
Let me provide some real-world examples.
I had a guy come in and ask to see a firearm when I could smell the alcohol on him. A database wouldn't pick that up.
I've turned away a potential buyer because he seemed very agitated and angry when he came in to buy a shotgun. Who you rather I armed someone in this apparent state?
I've turned away another man because he asked point blank if a certain rifle was capable of killing a person from far away. Again, would you rather I sold this man the rifle?
A father and teen-aged son have made repeated trips to our establishment over the past year. They are so grossly (almost comically) incompent and unsafe in their handling of firearms that every employee who has dealt with them feels they would be a hazard to themselves and others if armed.
Once, the father actually pulled the muzzle towards his eye to look down the barrel while the son has his hand on the grip. Thank God we have trigger locks on all our display guns.
To date, I know one employee who has gently suggested that they take a firearms safety course before considering a purchase, which they blew off in a huff. They have done a lot of looking, but haven't tried to make a purchase. We've decided that until display more compentence and safety, we will not sell to them. To arm them would probably be criminally negligent, and is certainly morally so.
We are not asked to make a clinical diagnosis, but we are required morally and legally to refrain from selling firearms to those individual that we judge to be potentially dangerous, unstable, or impaired.
Had you been on hand to witness any of the examples cited above (and I'm certain other dealers have far more extreme examples), you probably would have judged us as mentally defective had we allowed the sale... unless, of course, you think we should trust a database somewhere instead of our own eyes, and sell firearms to homicidally-curious, agitated, unstable, or obviously intoxicated individuals.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 15, 2007 07:54 AM (9y6qg)
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I can answer your concern for the ability of "mental health experts" to certify that someone is "cured". If you would consider that just about anything regarding mental health is as close to voodoo as you can get, then you are on the mark. Despite over 100 years of observation and attempted treatment with the introduction of numerous psycho active drugs, the knowledge and treatment of mental health issures in still in the stone age. Often, the people who are professionals in this group of physicians are worse off than their patients. So when they say they are well treated, lock up the guns, close the store and barracade the door.
Posted by: David Caskey,MD at June 15, 2007 09:25 AM (G5i3t)
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As a psychiatrist I would echo your concerns over allowing the seriously and persistantly mentally ill to buy firearms. I am also skeptical of "cures" in psychiatry, with the possible exception of some simple phobias and minor depressive syndromes. I think the best advise is the one you gave - for clerks to be vigilent in their gut level assessment of potential buyers. To rely simply on a database to tell us what to do is foolhardy and would result in guns being sold to people who should never have them. As to Dr Caskey, the brain is a wonderfully complex organ and is far from being understood, but that does not mean we have made no progress and are merely modern day witchdoctors. To be involved in treating the mentally ill you have to be comfortable with a high degree of uncertainty as the medical knowledge base is simply not there to provide a high degree of certainty. Even in the area of a "simple" electromechanical pump such as the heart, our knowledge base continues to grow and treatments are improved.
Posted by: sy at June 15, 2007 12:09 PM (hr/Ar)
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sy: PSYCHIATRY is partially a science but PSYCHOLOGY is NOT
theres no agreement on if many psychological disorders EXIST like asperger, passive/aggressive, dislexya &etc
there are good tests for some like SOCIOPATH but these are notoreously hard to apply!
disorders are REDEFINED every year
psychology == NO PREDICTIVE POWER
Posted by: Karl at June 15, 2007 02:26 PM (5zEhw)
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PSYCHIATRY is partially a science but PSYCHOLOGY is NOT psychology == NO PREDICTIVE POWER
Thank you, Tom Cruise. Try not to jump on the couch, okay?
Posted by: Doc Washboard at June 15, 2007 10:04 PM (h9Q8O)
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