September 28, 2005
"Think Progress"? I Think Not
My response to
a poorly-researched, dishonestly-written Think Progress posted about former FEMA Director Brown's congressional testimony yesterday.
BROWN CLAIM: "FEMA doesn't evacuate communities."
FACT: Brown Said FEMA Was Engaging In Evacuations During Katrina
If there is still floodwaters around there, they shouldn't be trying to evacuate those patients by themselves. The Coast Guard, FEMA, all of those continue to do those rescue missions and we continue to do those evacuations and we'll certainly continue to evacuate all of the hospitals. [CNN, 9/1/05]
You can't tell the fundamental difference between a pre-storm evacuation, which is a local/state issues, and the post storm rescue/recovery phase, which FEMA does get involved with. You don't know your subject matter.
BROWN CLAIM: FEMA Was Stretched Beyond It Capabilities
"Mr. Chairman, this event stretched FEMA beyond its capabilities. There's no question about that. It did it in several ways. One is FEMA, over the past several years, has lost a lot of manpower. At one point during my tenure, because of assessments by the Department of Homeland Security, FEMA has lost — at one point, we were short 500 people in an organization of about 2,500. You do the math. That's pretty significant… FEMA has suffered from the inability to grow to meet the demands."
FACT: Brown Said FEMA Had All The Manpower It Needed
BLITZER: Are you ready? Is FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, ready to deal with this new hurricane?
BROWN: We absolutely are. We have all the manpower and resources we need. President Bush has been a very great supporter of FEMA. [CNN, 9/26/04]
Did you bother to even check the storm size and estimated damage from 9/26/05 to landfall? Katrina was just a weak Category 1 or Category 2 Hurricane on 9/26 depending on the time of day the question was asked. It only hit Cat 4 status on 9/28.
What a completely bogus comparison between a comment made about a weak storm, and a comment made about one of the most powerful storms to ever hit land.
BROWN CLAIM: "I can't discuss with you my conversations with the president's chief of staff and the president."
FACT: Brown Spoke to New York Times About Conversations With Chief of Staff
"Hours after Hurricane Katrina passed New Orleans on Aug. 29, as the scale of the catastrophe became clear, Michael D. Brown recalls, he placed frantic calls to his boss, Michael Chertoff, the secretary of homeland security, and to the office of the White House chief of staff, Andrew H. Card Jr. … 'I am having a horrible time,' Mr. Brown said he told Mr. Chertoff and a White House official — either Mr. Card or his deputy, Joe Hagin — in a status report that evening. 'I can't get a unified command established.'" [NYT, 9/15/05]
No contradiction here, at all. Read it again. One conversation was just with the C.O.S., which he could reveal. He could not, however and for whatever reason, discuss his conversation with the C.O.S. and the President.
Think Progress is a non-partisan organization? Could have fooled me.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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In reference to your second point, it was clear Katrina would grow into a larger storm, so saying Brown was only referring to a weak storm misses the point. He should have known, like everyone was warning, that it would be much worse when it finally got there.
Posted by: joe at September 28, 2005 12:27 PM (HDulo)
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The important question we should be asking is: why is the citation for Brown's remark from 9/26/04? Is it possible that Think Progress cherry-picked an assertive comment from an interview over a year ago just to make Brown look bad? Could it be just a simple typo? Hmmm...
Hurricane Jeanne happens to correspond to 9/26/04, when it made landfall near Stuart, Florida. While it caused a lot of damage, the storm was a cat. 2-3 at best, and was downgraded to a tropical storm on 9/27/04.
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/HAW2/english/history.shtml
Jeanne also happened to strike only a few weeks after Frances, and in almost the same place. FEMA was in the region dealing with the fallout from Frances. Could that mean that the "new hurricane" that Blitzer is talking about is Jeanne - because, afterall, why would he be talking about a "new" hurricane before Katrina? It is possible that Brown would have said they had all the resources they needed to deal with Jeanne...since they would have had feet on the ground already in the wake of Frances...
Its convenient that Think Progress didn't list sources, since I'm having a bitch of a time finding the Blitzer interview transcript.
Posted by: Josh at September 28, 2005 01:23 PM (S6Wcf)
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You're wasting your time on those wingnuts.
Willful ignorance is all they have to prevent their house of canards from crashing down.
Good effort though!
Posted by: Mike's America at September 30, 2005 01:11 AM (SHL+1)
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September 27, 2005
Escape from LA
My
church is just one of many organizations sending volunteers to help those communities ground away by Hurricane Katrina. Our first team of volunteers was based out of Gretna, LA, and was in and around New Orleans from Sept. 17-22. They got out ahead of Hurricane Rita.
These are some of the images they captured.
This tractor and car were flipped by the storm surge, the garage or barn they were in was completely demolished. The large body of water in the background is probably Lake Ponchartrain.
If you can ever find the carpenter who put down this hardwood floor, hire him.
This railbed buckled under the force of the storm surge.
Even the worst of disasters can't strip some people of their sense of humor.
There are no quitters here.
More pictures are on the church's Katrina Relief Blog, which we will be adding to as we make more trips down to help. Everyone has their own set of talents, and as I am marginally capable of swinging a hammer, I hope to go down with one of the construction teams in coming months.
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Darn shame about that tractor.....
Posted by: Mike at September 27, 2005 10:09 PM (jC96s)
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That is a NICE looking floor.
Posted by: MikeM at September 27, 2005 10:40 PM (BCqik)
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It is groups like yours that are helping us to rebuild in Louisiana and Mississippi. Thanks from Mississippi.
Are you sure those last 3 aren't from Mississippi? The one with the railrod tracks looks like Waveland.
Posted by: seawitch at September 28, 2005 12:39 AM (133au)
4
seawitch,
Not unless they got
really lost. To the very best of my knowledge, these were taken within a fair distance of the base of operations in Gretna.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 28, 2005 12:43 AM (0fZB6)
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Thanks for sharing. Heartbreaking to see.
Posted by: DeeDee at September 28, 2005 07:48 AM (/VCNY)
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Yes, the third one is definitely from MS. A friend of mine sent out the same picture with the house on the train tracks and they were in MS over Labor Day.
Posted by: TN gal at September 28, 2005 11:31 AM (v9WG0)
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These pictures wer all taken by our youth minister in Louisiana. Katrina was a storm hundreds of miles wide, and therefore damaged train tracks all along the gulf seaboard.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 28, 2005 02:50 PM (g5Nba)
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September 26, 2005
Common Dreams, Questionable Sources
Via sharp-eyed
Lawhawk and
Discarded Lies, I was alerted to
this story from
Human Rights Watch on the Common Dreams Newswire.
Human Rights Watch claims:
New Orleans: Prisoners Abandoned to Floodwaters
Officers Deserted a Jail Building, Leaving Inmates Locked in Cells
NEW YORK - September 23 - As Hurricane Katrina began pounding New Orleans, the sheriff's department abandoned hundreds of inmates imprisoned in the city's jail, Human Rights Watch said today.
Inmates in Templeman III, one of several buildings in the Orleans Parish Prison compound, reported that as of Monday, August 29, there were no correctional officers in the building, which held more than 600 inmates. These inmates, including some who were locked in ground-floor cells, were not evacuated until Thursday, September 1, four days after flood waters in the jail had reached chest-level.
“Of all the nightmares during Hurricane Katrina, this must be one of the worst,” said Corinne Carey, researcher from Human Rights Watch. “Prisoners were abandoned in their cells without food or water for days as floodwaters rose toward the ceiling.”
Human Rights Watch called on the U.S. Department of Justice to conduct an investigation into the conduct of the Orleans Sheriff's Department, which runs the jail, and to establish the fate of the prisoners who had been locked in the jail. The Louisiana Department of Public Safety and Corrections, which oversaw the evacuation, and the Orleans Sheriff's Department should account for the 517 inmates who are missing from list of people evacuated from the jail.
Carey spent five days in Louisiana, conducting dozens of interviews with inmates evacuated from Orleans Parish Prison, correctional officers, state officials, lawyers and their investigators who had interviewed more than 1,000 inmates evacuated from the prison.
Read the rest.
Human Rights Watch claims that guards recklessly abandoned inmates and implied that as many as 517 prisoners are unaccounted for and possibly dead, including 130 thought to have been in Templeman 3, one of the cell blocks where flooding was worst.
While deaths may indeed have occurred in the Orleans Parish Prison, they are nowhere near what Human Rights Watch hints at, nor does there seem to be as many prisoners missing as they allege. This level of exaggeration would be on par with other Human Rights Watch reports of the recent past, and indicative of a sensationalist organizational culture.
Here is what we do know about the situation in the Orleans Parish Prison immediately before and after Hurricane Katrina.
There were indeed breakdowns in disaster planning at the Orleans Parish Prison, apparent even before Hurricane Katrina made landfall. We heard rumors of a riot in the prison on 8/30, but at the time, the riot could not be confirmed. By the next day, the prisoners had been readied for evacuation, and by September 1, all inmates and corrections officers had been evacuated with no known fatalities.
A week later, stories began leaking out about the Orleans Parish Prison riot from both inmates and guards. These were the first and only early accounts from somewhat credible named witnesses. Even then, few accounts, if any, were corroborated, while some facts were flatly preposterous, like claims by one of the guards that flooding reached the fifth floor. Only one named source in the various articles I've seen claimed to have seen bodies, and they numbered exactly two in that account.
More recent accounts, including one published 9/25, claim that while some corrections officers did fail in their duties, some performed heroically, including newly promoted Chief Deputy Bill Short, whose eyewitness testimony seem to directly contradict key points of the report from Human Rights Watch:
Chief Deputy Bill Short said Thursday that he could confirm only four escapes, but a full head count by the state Department of Corrections is still under way.
Short was promoted to his new position a week ago in acknowledgment of his steely command of the 800-inmate House of Detention during the storm and its aftermath.
Other deputies said they knew of more than a dozen escape attempts.
One thing Short said he knows for certain is that there were no deaths - not among the inmates, not among the 900 or so employees who reported to work, not among the scores of residents who floated or waded in from the surrounding neighborhood to the relative safety of the veranda of the high-rise Community Correctional Center.
"Did we know exactly what to do?" Short asked. "Nobody did. It was a wild ride, but we must have done some good things because nobody died."
According to the top on-scene official contacted so far, no inmates died as Human Rights Watch has implied, and only four escapes have been confirmed.
In addition, in their attempt to paint prison officials in the worse possible light, Human Rights Watch does not mention the fact that the prisoners were evacuated well ahead of the sick, the very young, and the elderly at the Superdome and the Convention Center. Prisoners, perhaps because of their status as wards of the State of Louisiana, actually received preferential evacuation treatment over the other citizens of New Orleans.
Corinne Carey of Human Rights Watch says of the prison, "Of all the nightmares during Hurricane Katrina, this must be one of the worst."
Not. Even. Close.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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September 25, 2005
Got Gas?
If you live, or know anyone who lives between Houston,TX and Lake Charles, LA, please
go here and see if you can help. It will only take a few minutes, and won't even cost you a phone call.
Thanks.
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September 24, 2005
Complete Hurricane Rita Coverage
WRAL-TV in Raleigh, NC has what appears to be a
complete list of links to local television (including some excellent live webcasts) and newspapers in Texas and Louisiana.
So far , it is the absolute best resource I've found for covering Hurricane Rita on a local level. This torm will hit land and stall, not leaving untli after the weekend. The widespread flooding seen as a result will be on par with that of Hurricane Floyd in 1999, with more than 20 inches expected in many areas.
Please say a prayer for everyone in the storm area.
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September 23, 2005
Help Rita's Rescuers
If you are in southeast Texas or southwest Louisiana, especially coastal areas, and plan to try to ride out Hurricane Rita, please help recovery operations by writing your social security number and name on both of your arms and both of your legs with a permanent marker.
This may assist mortuary teams in identifying your body.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I heard Gov Blanco say that. Didn't she first say what a stupid thing it was to say when Gov. Bush (think it was him, maybe it was the Miss Gov)first suggusted it?
Wonder what changed her mind?
Posted by: this and that at September 23, 2005 09:56 AM (MSMPS)
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Ouch. How about if I just write it on my shirt? Thanks for the wellwishes Blanco
Man I can't wait to vote that lady out of office.
Posted by: Kevin at September 23, 2005 10:56 AM (QHu90)
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I thought John Tierney wrote this a few weeks ago in one of his columns - he said that this is how they handle reluctant evacuees in Virginia.
Posted by: theanchoress at September 23, 2005 11:39 AM (Sp817)
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I first heard about it years ago, and can't recall if I heard it when Hugo came barrelling in our direction in '93 or when Bertha and Fran rolled thorugh in '96 or perhaps when Floyd came through in '99. I highly suspect tha it has been around as a saying for far longer than that.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 23, 2005 11:55 AM (2cgwG)
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Where would anyone rather be, at home with batteries, pumps, MREs, bottled water, or out on the Interstate Highway at the mercy of competing agencies that give conflicting information?
Posted by: Tom T at September 23, 2005 01:00 PM (6krEN)
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I had never heard this quote before
Blanco made it. It is in poor taste whoever says it. It ranks up there with Kos'
"screw them" statement imo.
Posted by: Kevin at September 23, 2005 03:14 PM (QHu90)
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It is practical advice that has become something of an urban legend, Kevin, that cops have been using for years. I personally heard about it in the 90s during one of the hurricanes that hit teh east coast, but it has been used before and since, including
this example from Hurricane Isabel, in 2003. It was used by coastal police
before Katrina as well. What, you think Blanco could have thought it up on her own?
You are worried about something being in "poor taste," while cops are using it as a rhetorical in a last ditch efforts to save people's lives.
Which is more important, offending them, or saving them?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 23, 2005 04:23 PM (0fZB6)
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The quote's origin go back to '54 when hurricane Hazel was barreling down on the North Carolina's coast.
Permanent markers hadn't been invented and paper was still a rather new and expensive commodity so the local police officers asked residents determined to stay in the area to carve their names into stone tablets tied around their ankles.
The tablets not only helped to identify the resident, it also helped to keep them from washing out to see of from being blown away.
I also have a bit of swampland for sale in the 'glades is anyone's interested.
Posted by: phin at September 23, 2005 05:35 PM (DGPlf)
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September 21, 2005
F3
Hurricane Rita has achieved sustained wind speeds of 165 mph, and is now officially a Category 5 hurricane on the
Saffer-Simpson scale. This is the highest possible rating for a hurricane.
Rita is so powerful that it might be more descriptive to describe her for what she also is: A massive F3 (or “severe”) tornado on the Fujita Scale of Tornado Intensity.
The thing is, most tornados aren't generally large enough to be seen from space...
Via NOAA
If you live in South Texas, a trip north would be a good idea right about now.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I live in Houston, and I've watched as crisis mode hit this city. Every freeway heading north is jammed. There are no water bottles or batteries in any store in town. A report that a truck of generators would arrive at Home Depot this morning had me arriving at 7:00 and waiting until 11:00 before discovering the truck was rerouted to Austin (?). Despite this, the people have remained calm and orderly, for the most part. People are helping their neighbors to board up their homes. They are literally picking up hitchikers on the side of freeways. If anyone has ever been to Texas, you know the way that we band together in times of crisis. It is truly inspiring to watch. We will perservere.
Posted by: Tom in Texas at September 21, 2005 05:50 PM (a4Pyy)
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September 18, 2005
The City That Should Not Be
As I mentioned of a flooded New Orleans over
two weeks ago, rebuilding the same city in the same spot and expecting a different result is the definition of what?
Since then, President Bush has given a speech pledging billions of dollars to rebuild a city that should not be, one built in a swamp, largely below sea level, surrounded by an unnaturally choked Mississippi River on one side, and a rapidly encroaching Gulf of Mexico on the other.
Many people have rallied behind the President for his pledge to rebuild the area "in a sensible, well-planned way."
There is nothing at all sensible about rebuilding New Orleans. It will be on, or under, the Gulf of Mexico by 2050, according to this lightly modified image from the U. S. Army Corps of Engineers (more here).
Of course, looking at a map is one thing: hearing from legitimate experts is another matter entirely.
Towards that end, I sent an email to some of the top coastal and marine studies scientists in the United States this past Friday, asking them to the following five questions:
- Are estimates that the continued rate of wetland loss in Louisiana will place New Orleans on or in the Gulf of Mexico in the 2050-2090 time frame accurate?
- If these estimates are not accurate in your estimation, what do you think the actual time frame will be (ballpark estimates are perfectly acceptable)?
- The Mississippi Delta is immensely important as a breeding ground for migratory birds and for many species of marine life. Some have suggested that allowing the Mississippi River to "go native" —that is, removing levees and other hardening structures—would allow the Delta to replenish itself with sediments that are currently be lost to the Gulf of Mexico. Is that an accurate theory in your estimation?
- Are other replenishment efforts more viable for the long-term?
- If the area of New Orleans outside the port and French Quarter (above seas level) were cleared and cleaned and returned to nature with artificial flood control structures removed, what would be the impact on the wetlands of the Mississippi Delta?
Even though I sent this out on a Friday, I was able to get a response from one senior scientist. I promised that I would not reveal his identity, but I can reveal that he is a geologist, and the former Dean of a Coastal and Marine Studies program.
Here is how he responded:
1. Are estimates that the continued rate of wetland loss in Louisiana will place New Orleans on or in the Gulf of Mexico in the 2050-2090 time frame accurate?
The estimates are probably accurate. There are three main factors: Global sea level rise, delta subsidence, Mississippi River sedimentation. Sea level is rising, the delta is sinking and the river is depositing much less sediment on the delta now than in the past (for multiple reasons).
2. If these estimates are not accurate in your estimation, what do you think the actual time frame will be (ballpark estimates are perfectly acceptable)?
They "are probably accurate" (See above)
3. The Mississippi Delta is immensely important as a breeding ground for migratory birds and for many species of marine life. Some have suggested that allowing the Mississippi River to "go native" —that is, removing levees and other hardening structures—would allow the Delta to replenish itself with sediments that are currently be lost to the Gulf of Mexico. Is that an accurate theory in your estimation?
Where the Mississippi mouth is located has shifted at least 14 times in the last 7000 years. It has now reached the point where it is over extended. There is great potential for the river to turn Southwest just south of Baton Rouge and take a short cut to the ocean. The Army Corps of Engineers has been fighting this for decades. It is natural for the river channel to significantly shift its channel.
Because the river has so many dams along its course and its banks are heavily diked, sedimentation on the delta surface has been reduced. This has aggravated the problem of completely natural process of delta subsidence because little is added to the top as the bottom goes down.
Note: Here is a map showing where the Mississippi would likely change it's course, taking a sharp turn to the southwest far before it reached New Orleans. Note that if the Mississippi river does change course as suggested, then New Orleans loses much of its value as a port city, along with its only natural supply of sediment. This also means that the large area of the Mississippi Delta to the east (right) of the new course, which is over-extended into the Gulf of Mexico would erode away over time.
Are other replenishment efforts more viable for the long-term?
4. Where would the dirt come from? The natural source is the best and cheapest. [Just to be clear, he means by sedimentation –ed.] All other schemes would require enormous energy output to move the material and probably create a problem somewhere else.
If the area of New Orleans outside the port and French Quarter (above seas level) were cleared and cleaned and returned to nature with artificial flood control structures removed, what would be the impact on the wetlands of the Mississippi Delta?
There would be an immediate increase in shallow fresh to brackish water wetlands. The quality of that increase would depend on elevation (depth) and what could become established on it. If it is an increase in area of low quality wetland or a series of lakes, it may not be worth it for the gain in wetlands alone.
After answering these questions, he also volunteered the following:
If a city planner were choosing a location for a big city, it would not be where New Orleans is today. It is a location that should be largely abandoned as a city.
New Orleans is a doomed city, and even the Mississippi River it depends upon seems to want to abandon it. I'd rather we faced up to that fact now, rather than $200 billion or a trillion dollars down the road.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Not picking nits, I have an degree in the subject... rather, picking at political nits...
D'you have some pre-built posts for Los Angeles and San Francisco? (San Andreas)
Memphis and St. Louis? (New Madrid)
Seattle? (Mt. Rainier)
I got your point - it's trashed now, why rebuild it, based on the science, which doesn't apply to the other cities (in that they aren't physically trashed now, regardless of what people might think of the politics of the residents...) and it's a *lot* harder, really, to fight off the sea than it is to build for an earthquake...
Abandonment seems like surrender, which doesn't go over well politically, unless you're French.
Hmmmm...
Posted by: John of Argghhh! at September 19, 2005 07:01 AM (9FPYz)
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I lived on the Outer Banks of North Carolina for five years (Kitty Hawk, Albemarle Sound side) and saw beach erosion on the coast that no project that the Army Corps of Engineers had could stop. I've spent time in NOLA, went out to the bayous, and concluded that if I was going to live there for the rest of my natural life, it would be in a residential version of a submarine!
Posted by: Tom T at September 19, 2005 07:08 AM (M7kiy)
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This is a very good topic for us, as a nation, to be discussing. It covers all types of development in areas that there is risk... fires, floods, earthquakes, etc. There needs to be an agreed cut off for personal responsibility and society responsibility. Are people aware? Who pays? What is done? etc. Also, we are going to be having this discussion about a number of oceanside communities as sea water continues to rise.
Posted by: steve talbert at September 19, 2005 11:24 AM (M7kiy)
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I am FROM Louisiana, and I still think they need to pull the *FLUSH* handle on New Orleans...
And all this *repopulate ASAP* BS is just that, BS... People are going to DIE from filth and disease, Nagin is trying to open New Orleans up to make himself look good, "See what I did?? I am the saviour of new Orleans..."
Posted by: TexasFred at September 19, 2005 01:53 PM (qX3iX)
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The Federal Reclamation of New Orleans Act of 2005 brings to mind 2 words: Eminent Domain
Posted by: Idjiut at September 19, 2005 02:19 PM (IcLaH)
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Why not build New Orleans in the center of the Gulf, with a walkway to it, rather like an oil rig. That would preserve all the wet lands in the area, and offer residents splendid ocean views at maximum expense???
Posted by: mariro at September 19, 2005 02:38 PM (35NoB)
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I'm with John of Argghhh! on this. While we need to discuss the rebuilding on a national scale, the fact is that nearly all of the US population lives in places that are susceptible to natural disaster on a fairly regular basis. It is a risk that many people live with, but the question is how much risk and how much should the federal government compensation those who are directly affected by the disaster when it strikes.
We have insurance products to cover many of those natural disasters - flood insurance, hurricane insurance, disaster insurance, and policy riders to cover various contingencies. Many people don't have 'em despite the possibility of being affected.
And one could even argue that by government backing some of these policies that we encourage further development in high risk areas. Maybe that's something that should be discussed as well.
Posted by: lawhawk at September 19, 2005 03:14 PM (AcoYr)
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In response to John of Argghhh!'s post:
LA and San Fran are susceptible to violent earthquakes due to their proximity to the active San Andreas fault. The New Madrid fault,
(from what I recall, I may be wrong), isn't seen as being prone to a large earthquake in the foreseeable future, nor is Mt. Rainier projected to blow in the near term, and even if it did, there is a chance to could blow in the opposite direction of Seattle.
In each of these instances, there is a distinct though slight possibility of destruction. These possibilities, however, are not generally viewed as immediate impending threats, and are viewed more as geologic long-term scenarios that have a low probability of occurring in the next 50, 100, or even 1,000 years. Even if they do occur, a recurrence during any given lifetime is extremely remote.
On the other hand, it is a probability (not a possibility, but a probability) that New Orleans will be inundated by the Gulf of Mexico, permanently, and within 100 years. Efforts to disrupt this natural event by building levees and sea walls has actually accelerated this march to the sea, not mitigated it. In fact, man's interference in the sedimentation and water flow cycle has accelerated the death of the marshlands, posing a major threat to the Mississippi flyway and the estuary system that acts as a nursery for much of our nations seafood and migratory birds.
If we lost Los Angeles or Memphis, the rest of the country would not be greatly affected on an environmental scale. The efforts we are pouring into keeping New Orleans, however, is having a major environmental impact on the natural resources mentioned above.
The "foot" of Louisiana is something of an natural abomination, and is geologically in search of correction. According to the scientist quoted in my post, the Mississippi is due for a major shift in it's course just south of Baton Rouge (see the second map in the post), one that will carry the river far away from New Orleans. The shortest course to the Gulf is to the southwest, in the general direction of Lafayette.
New Orleans is not destined to survive, and it is only our human arrogance that will prolong its natural and preordained death. You are right that it might not be politically popular, but you cannot beat the ocean, you can only hold it at bay for a little while.
I happen to think that money would be much better spent relocating people now, instead of pouring billions into the sunken city many don't want to return to, only to have to relocate those that do return once or twice more before we finally get the fact that it is far too expensive to keep rebuilding a city that was a mistake to begin with.
Quite frankly, with the track T.S. Rita is currently taking, I'm not even certain New Orleans will last another two weeks, much less another 50 years.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 19, 2005 03:18 PM (2cgwG)
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Flooding of a city located below sea level is just SO special!
Earthquakes, tornados, hurricanes, fires, etc.
the event lasts for minutes, hours...
recovery/repair can begin right away.
A quote from Monty Python and the Holy Grail:
When I first came here, this was all swamp. Everyone said I was daft to build a castle on a swamp, but I built in all the same, just to show them. It sank into the swamp. So I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. So I built a third. That burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up. And that's what you're going to get, Lad, the strongest castle in all of England.
Posted by: Anony at September 19, 2005 09:37 PM (zwGgY)
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lawhawk: "...nearly all of the US population lives in places that are susceptible to natural disaster on a fairly regular basis."
Uh, what? I'm no geologist, but that seems a rather broad statement. In fact, that's gotta be dead wrong -- only a small majority of the ~ 300M live in disaster-prone areas, no?
Posted by: Ben at September 19, 2005 10:00 PM (bVNQj)
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Maybe Al Gore can invent water that runs uphill.
Posted by: Rubin at September 20, 2005 05:23 AM (WMCQi)
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lawhawk: "We have insurance products to cover many of those natural disasters - flood insurance, hurricane insurance, disaster insurance, and policy riders to cover various contingencies. Many people don't have 'em despite the possibility of being affected."
Actually, most of the people that DO have flood insurance only have them because the federal government backs the coverage.
No sane private insurer would EVER sell flood insurance in the New Orleans area without being forced to charge exorbitant rates. The only reason such coverage exists is because Uncle is willing to back it.
Posted by: MrSpkr at September 20, 2005 03:08 PM (CEsbr)
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Thank you, lawhawk. I agree, the question is not "Do we rebuild NOLA" or even "Do we, uh,
preemptively not rebuild SF/LA/SeaTac/...?" A better question is how to manage risk: in particular, how to force people as much as possible to internalize the costs of their decision to take risk, and how much "leftover" (i.e. still-externalized) risk to assume at the federal level.
MrSpkr, I'm confused: if Uncle Sam underwrote all the flood coverage, and actually had the money to cover it, we wouldn't be scrounging $200B to rebuild NOLA now. Clearly either (1) Uncle Sam didn't have enough money to cover this predictable event (perhaps he didn't charge high enough premiums), or (2) many people didn't buy the insurance, and the $200B is going mainly to bail them out. Please correct me if I'm off-base.
For the record, I'm in SF, and I just re-upped my quake insurance. IMHO anyone who lives here without some form of quake risk management (i.e. insurance) has no right to demand reparations from Washington after the fact. Of course, they will anyway...
You can't drive a car without a basic level of insurance coverage; buying/renting a home should be the same.
Posted by: quaker at September 21, 2005 03:44 PM (woVOm)
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Abandonment seems like surrender
Agreed that this is a problem . . . but then, we're not fighting a Global War Against Acts of God here.
Posted by: Crank at September 26, 2005 10:07 AM (LD7Zk)
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I have to agree with you.
New Orleans, like Venice, is a doomed city. It is best to cut our losses and allow the Mississippi to go where it wants to.
I know people will bring up the loss of the port. We do have a thing called the intracostal waterway that can take the goods that would go to New Orleans to Houston, Biloxi or other ports.
The only reason I see to rebuild New Orleans is to get all the New Orleans gangs and thugs back to where they belong. Already Houston is having a big problem with them. The only good thing about that is that Harris county doesn't f**k around with thugs. If they manage not to get killed by the person they are trying to rob they will be sent to jail and if they kill someone they send em to the gas chamber. There ain't no such thing as the "touchy-feely" approach to criminals that exists in more liberal places.
Posted by: Nahanni at September 26, 2005 10:11 AM (owqCZ)
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Here's a question. Assuming the mississippi does change course, how quickly will its new course become navigable? Should we be embracing the inevitable and building a channel for it to ensure ships will have clearance?
Posted by: Jeremy Abrams at September 26, 2005 10:25 AM (EViAc)
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First flood insurance:
1) The feds have been paying out about 50 cents on the dollar of damages in recent flood events. I've seen mention of people having $115,000 in surveyed damage and getting a check for $50,000. And another with $20,000 in damages and getting a check for $8900. The speculation is that the flood insurance program would go instantly bankrupt if they payed out full damages.
2) There is little incentive for people to buy flood insurance, they know that FEMA will fly in with checks for all who suffered loses whether they have insurance or not.
3) The flood insurance program should just be handed off to private companies. If someone has to buy insurance and it costs them $2000/month then that might be a sign to them they they need to move elsewhere. Let market forces drive people out of these insane building locations.
--Rebuilding New Orleans in place would just be madness. Find a higher elevation spot upstream and move the place there.
agesilaus
Posted by: agesilaus at September 26, 2005 10:46 AM (g0e8t)
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The "foot" of Louisiana is something of an natural abomination, and is geologically in search of correction. According to the scientist quoted in my post, the Mississippi is due for a major shift in it's course just south of Baton Rouge (see the second map in the post), one that will carry the river far away from New Orleans. The shortest course to the Gulf is to the southwest, in the general direction of Lafayette.
New Orleans is not destined to survive, and it is only our human arrogance that will prolong its natural and preordained death. You are right that it might not be politically popular, but you cannot beat the ocean, you can only hold it at bay for a little while.
First, please identify any "scientist" who respondes to your questions. I've got precisely as much confidence in anonymous "experts" that I do for the for-hire medical experts I deal with as a defense attorney.
Second, "experts" have been telling us for decades that we faced a threat from the erosion of our coastal wetlands. They have also been advising on ways to restore those wetlands. Meaning that it is possible to un-do some of the damage caused by the channelling of the Mississippi and other major rivers in the region. Follow this link for sources: http://cswgcin.nbii.gov/ecoregion/wetlands/lawetlands/
With regard the changing course of the Mississippi, the general consensus among "experts" is that the course will shift towards Morgan City, rather than Lafayette. It is also not inevitable.
Finally, and the reason I'm responding to this in the first place, is that your conclusion "New Orleans is not destined to survive" is utter nonsense. Using the logic displayed in your post, Holland should be abandoned. The simple fact is that humans have manipulated their environment for thousands of years, and that includes riverine systems and settlement of areas prone to flooding.
Additionally, failing to rebuild New Orleans would deprive the United States of one of its biggest ports, among other economic impacts.
Caveat: I am from New Orleans, and have a personal interest in seeing it rebuilt. I believe, however, that I am also able to objectively judge the situation and reach a different conclusion from yours.
Your superficial understanding of the situation in South Louisiana generally, and New Orleans specifically ought to embarass you.
Posted by: Robert at September 26, 2005 11:16 AM (O2IXv)
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I'm sorry, Robert, but you not objective. If you really are an attorney, you also are surprisingly inept at making your case.
My source is as credible and qualified as any expert cited by the mainstream media, and perhaps more so; Unlike Dan RatherÂ’s sources, I've had a chance to review his resume and his work. For obvious reasons, as a scientist who conducts much of his research with government grants, he chooses to remain anonymous.
Of course, you don't have to rely on him; the initial graphic was from a U.S. Army Corps of Engineers drawing, used by LSU. Or you could have watched the Discovery Channel special that aired shortly after landfall that showed that marshland area the size of Delaware is disappearing every year. Or you could simply read any of the wetlands research published over the past decades that shows the decline of the Mississippi Delta.
Holland is a tiny country that has no choice but to push back against the sea. It literally has nowhere else to go. We, on the other hand, have town in some areas of the midwest and west all but giving away land to build communities. In addition, while the North Sea does generate storms, Holland does not face the constant threat of hurricanes. Rebuilding New Orleans is optional, as other than culturally, it offers little that can't be rebuilt in a better location at a fraction of the cost. Your comparison is, quite frankly, silly.
The weight of scientific evidence buries your biased opinions, and the link you provide proves my point exactly: to maintain and artificially-channeled delta and marshland system is technically possible, but cost-prohibitive and a huge waste of federal tax dollars. If Louisiana wants to rebuild a city in a hole in a swamp, Louisiana should pay for it. Baton Rouge should foot the bill, not Boston, and not Boise.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 26, 2005 11:55 AM (2cgwG)
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I'm also with John of Argghhh! on this one. On the west coast we have the threat of earthquakes (and just last week there were indications that stress in building in the fault). Half the east coast gets pounded by storms at least as badly as the Gulf does. If risk was an important factor in rebuilding it seems like we'd all be huddled together somewhere out in the midwest living in underground tornado shelters, with the rest of the country consisting of rusting ruins from past disasters. For good or ill that's not the way most Americans seem to operate.
Leaving New Orleans to become a swamp has its own set of costs, monetary, cultural, emotional. It seems to me that even if we didn't rebuild, the importance of the area as a port virtually guarantees that another city would grow up in about the same spot, anyway. It's going to be rebuilt, and despite all the grumbling and second-guessing there was never really any doubt about that decision. Just like there won't be any doubt about rebuilding LA when the Big One hits, or rebuilding Miami the next time it gets smashed. Yeah, It's going to cost a lot and be a difficult job, but it also gives us a chance to build a hell of a city virtually from scratch.
Posted by: Bryan C at September 26, 2005 12:25 PM (WLB9n)
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Robert's got a good point. However, I am unsure why his conclusion supports that the federal government should pay for this attempt at salvage. Risk-taking like this seems ready-made for the visionary investor (or, if it sinks, the crackpot debtor).
Posted by: Kevin F at September 26, 2005 12:25 PM (cB/4p)
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How about this for grist for the discussion.
Let the Mississippi flow free through the region. Unleash it to go to the Atchafalaya which is where it wants to go. Then build a canal connecting the Intracoastal Waterway to the new Mississippi River along the existing course. That is, turn the current river into a canal that connects the MRGO to the city to the river.
New Orleans WILL lose delta swamp immediate adjacent to it eventually. With the predicted course correction to the Atchafalaya, the delta swamps to New Orleans's east will lose any chance of sedimentation restoring it. Why not reclaim it right now as the Dutch reclaim land. Build redundant 10,000 year sea walls there for protection from future hurricanes
Just some thoughts...
Frankly, I think the $200 billion dollars would be better spent buying out the residents of the delta who demand the river be choked up in the levees all the way to the Gulf shooting the river into the sea like a firehose if they refuse to allow the river to flood again so as to recharge the protective delta swamps...
Posted by: Eric Anondson at September 26, 2005 12:28 PM (HLO4L)
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Well, there is a conceptual leap from scientific conclusion to policy conclusion. You can't pretend that the two are one and the same. What you can say is that given the scientific situation, here are some of the possible policies and their probable outcomes. I would say that "rebuild it the same way" would end up pretty low on any reasonable priority list. But seriously, so would "abandon the whole place." Humans have been reshaping the environment for millennia.
Posted by: Adam Villani at September 26, 2005 01:20 PM (fo7U0)
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Humanity has gravitated toward flood plains since their earliest days - there is nothing special or unusal about the City of New Orleans existence nor it's important position in the American economy.
The greatest impediment to rebuilding New Orleans (and let's understand something - the entire city isn't gone, there are numerous parts with scarcely any damage) is neither weather nor environmentally related - it is the human created sinkhole of interminable poverty and an enormous dependency class caused by corruption and the benign neglect of the American welfare state.
Graft and generational dependency ruined New Orleans far worse than any floodwaters can or ever will.
Posted by: MEC2 at September 26, 2005 01:27 PM (tag7B)
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Earlier posts here comparing New Orleans to San Francisco and Seattle in their risk of natural disasters are somewhat offbase: better comparison could be made to all coastal or riverine areas that can expect regular hurricane damage, flooding, or coastal destruction. IMO the reason discussion of *whether* New Orleans should be rebuilt has been actively rejected, is because of immediate comparisons to Florida, not San Francisco. As soon as we begin questioning how much money should be used to rebuild homes that are flooded or destroyed by known coastal risks, it calls into question the viability of most of the east coast (especially Miami and most of Florida)as well as wealthy beachfront property on the west coast (which as you may have noticed, is prone to sliding into the ocean). No legislator wants the finger pointed at them saying 'we won't help you rebuild this area', so they won't point the finger either.
IMO, we as a country are afraid of realistic evaluation of risk in any form, for three reasons:
1. We don't like to look objectively at risk, as a people or a culture; it requires us to acknowledge scientific, fiscal, and human behavioral realities we prefer to forget.
2. Seeing these realities would change our actions, and from our political system on down, we resist change in response to reality.
3. It would require serious, adult
prioritization of our time, money, and resources. This cuts into pork and other political deals at all levels.
4. It requires recognizing the power of the natural world and our inability to control it. This seems to be something humans as a species prefer to delude themselves about.
I believe human psychological realities trump everything, whether about risk assessment or turf battles, ego-driven power grabs or hero worship. Until we are willing to put these factors on the table and include them in our analysis, we are
not dealing with reality and will make poor decisions. Ergo, the systems and world we have now.
Posted by: bigpicgirl at September 26, 2005 01:35 PM (bjhmG)
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Here's a helpful tutorial for those of you Northerners whose nipples get hard every time someone says the word "wetlands"...
"WETLANDS" = SWAMPS
Big. Nasty. Alligator and snake filled. Swamps. Lots o' biodiversity. Lots o' leeches. Great drainage, but that same drainage is already achieved through stormwater runoff permits and other, existing frameworks.
Not a very good reason to sieze hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens' lands and property (either through regulation or eminent domain), grade an entire city over, and plow one of the most vital ports in the United States into the ground.
Is this post a joke?
Posted by: Captain Obvious at September 26, 2005 02:09 PM (65Ard)
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Oh, a different angle:
If the question is not 'should we rebuild New Orleans', then we should all be focusing on HOW TO REBUILD New Orleans in a sustainable way (i.e. with regular upkeep, not with huge infusions of money).
I've been highly disappointed in, well, everyone paying attention, that we have not even started to think outside the box on this one. What is relevant is
what WILL work in New Orleans?
For instance, outlying, primarily residential parishes directly on the delta should be returned to wetlands, with provisos for human settlement that suit the local terrain. If people want to build there, it should be as they did for generations: inexpensive houses on stilts, so they can be rebuilt, again without huge investment.
Additional alternative solutions include houseboats and other floating housing and infrastructure, and creating zones of supported housing types coupled to insurance. One of the major problems, for instance, isn't rebuilding the poor 9th ward - it's paying for the completely destroyed expensive waterfront houses. Risk, land values, and approved spending for rebuilding all need to be coupled in a reasonable way.
I'm no engineer, but there are additional alternatives: for instance, raising the level of the lowest-altitude, most at-risk neighborhoods the same way they did Galveston: pump in sand dredged from Lake Ponchartrain or the river.
Rebuilding NOLA is a done deal. Since they're going to do it, let's help them do it right. Our primary tasks as citizens should be to provide oversight, ideas, and correction to a federal government whose management, spending, and cronyism are out of control. God knows leaving FEMA and Halliburton in control will only waste our money.
Posted by: bigpicgirl at September 26, 2005 02:18 PM (bjhmG)
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Disaster in most other places in the country can be privately mitigated (building stronger homes and buildings). Therefore, choices to live in those areas and how much to spend on disaster mitigation are much more efficient.
Disaster in many places is not inherently disastrous. If IÂ’m standing around in the middle of a field, a huge earthquake will not hurt me. If IÂ’m standing around a ditch that is below sea level and it is swallowed by the Gulf of Mexico, I will die. I will not be able to return until major cleanup has taken place.
Disaster in other places reduces the chances of future disaster. If thereÂ’s a huge earthquake, it releases a lot of energy, so the potential of another earthquake greatly decreases. Whenever New Orleans is assaulted by a hurricane, it erodes the land making future disaster more likely.
The chances of a catastrophic event occurring in other places are unrelated to disaster mitigation. The frequency and size of earthquakes is not affected by people making their homes stronger. In New Orleans, environmental modifications have made disaster more likely. Furthermore, building the levees higher and stronger may reduce the chances of flooding, but it makes the Worst Case Scenario (water flowing into the city and creating Lake New Orleans via a direct hit by a hurricane) much worse.
Posted by: Ammonium at September 26, 2005 06:42 PM (IqII4)
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Alot of people here are talking about what should happen. I say wait and see what does will happen. I predict many of the evacuees are not going to return at all. There not going to wait months or years to be gainfully employed or living in a permanent residence again. They'll gain some permanent ties where they are, and many will stay there rather than risk doing this all over again sometime in the next 10 years. As for those not gainfully employed, there's not much diference between a housing project in Houston and one in NO. Meanwhile, big business and developers will be diverting and moving any big buildings or projects away from the city. Repeat this process again and again for every flood and hurricane that will come towards NO in the next 50 years, and watch the city become a ghost town.
People have been migrating like this since there have been people.
Posted by: Protagonist at September 27, 2005 06:39 AM (sssQ5)
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September 15, 2005
Rhetoric vs. Environment
Hugh Hewitt was right regarding President George W. Bush' Speech tonight in Jackson Square; it was
A Good Speech by a Good Man:
Perfect pitch returned tonight, and the president's looks backward and forward were on target. As Chris Matthews observed, it sounded a little LBJ/FDR-like in its vows about the underclass of the recovery region, but that is exactly why it worked so well: That is what needs to happen, and he identified the best approaches in the empowerment of entrepeneurs and the retraining of the evacuees. The enterprise zone could prove a turbo charged motor to the effort, and the promise of innovation was well delivered.
For all the heartfelt sentiment however, Bush, his speechwriters, and prognosticators both Democrat and Republican missed one key point: New Orleans is not destined to be around to celebrate it's rebirth, at least not for long.
The picture above is pulled from Louisiana State University, a school that knows quite a bit about coastal erosion. The original picture comes from an online lab, where this image portrays the future Louisiana coastline as envisioned by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers in just 50 years.
More conservative estimates place New Orleans on (or under) the Gulf of Mexico by 2090, and these were both pre-Katrina estimates. Once the environmental toll of Hurrican Katrina is finally measured, years are sure to be shaved from previous estimates.
It was foolish to build a city in a swamp 300 years ago. It is even more foolish now that we could rebuild a far better city, with far fewer problems, and far more potential, with far less money on a more viable location somewhere nearby.
Pouring trillions of dollars into rebuilding a temporary metropolis destined to fail is a fool's game that I would rather not play.
Note I would like to make it clear that I'm not against rebuilding as a concept, I'd just like it to occur at a more viable location than in an eternally sinking hole surrounded by massive bodies of water. Fair enough?
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It is my understanding that when first built, the city was not as low-lying; it has been slowly sinking. Considering most of its base is/was delta silt, it adds credence to the image by the Engineer Corps.
Coastlines will and do re-arrange themselves. As we are an adaptable species, I'd suggest we let them and stop with the 'beach renourishment', etc. Perhaps if the people who wanted to inhabit such areas were left to themselves fund their indulgences, wiser heads would prevail; we seem to be smarter with our own pocketbooks.
Posted by: Cindi at September 16, 2005 02:04 AM (Ygy0d)
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I recall an article I read years ago, it stated there were 5 Nations in the world who produce more food than they consume
The United States,
Canada, Argentina, New Zealand and Australia.
The Port of New Orleans is a vital link in the world's food supply we cannot afford to place it where it is going to continually be in jepardy.
Posted by: Dan Kauffman at September 16, 2005 03:03 AM (hxRR8)
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My understanding is that there is no high ground until you get about 100 miles north of New Orleans.
Parts of New Orleans are below sea level but all of New Orleans is below the Mississippi River. The Missisisippi River is the high point in New Orleans. We do need a port in New Orleans but thats all we need there.
Posted by: Travis at September 16, 2005 09:24 AM (ZlXVq)
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NEW ORLEANS (AP) - President Bush promised Thursday night the government will pay most of the costs of rebuilding the hurricane-ravaged Gulf Coast in one of the largest reconstruction projects the world has ever seen. "There is no way to imagine America without New Orleans, and this great city will rise again," the president said.
http://apnews.myway.com//article/20050916/D8CL4MK00.html
-----------------------------------
AID is one thing, but "rebuilding the hurricane-ravaged Gulf Coast in one of the largest reconstruction projects the world has ever seen" is taking it a bit too far IMO..
I can see it now, billions of TAX dollars, yours and mine, being poured in to an area that IS going to get hit by another freaking hurricane, and God forbid it's a Cat 4 or 5 because ALL that TAX money will be washed right out into the freaking Gulf of Mexico...
I have pretty much been in agreement with Pres. Bush until now, but THIS is a crock of shit...
Louisiana is my HOME state, I was born and raised there but had the good sense to leave, and there comes a time when you just have to make a decision and figure it out, and New orleans IS a bad idea in it's present location IMO...
Posted by: TexasFred at September 16, 2005 12:05 PM (qX3iX)
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Just because an idea seems stupid doesn't mean that someone won't try it. I absolutely agree with everybody that say that rebuilding New Orleans where it is currently is stupid but... Probably the same thing was said to the people that built the dikes and levees which keep the North Sea from inudating the Netherlands. Venice, Italy has some of the same problems as New Orleans but few suggest that the city be moved to higher ground. I guess that I have trust in human ingenuity to come up with a solution to the New Orleans delta problem.
Posted by: docdave at September 16, 2005 12:08 PM (/y2oV)
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Rebuilding NO would be an idiotic waste of money. Which is exactly why it will happen.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at September 16, 2005 12:08 PM (0yYS2)
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docdave, you bring up a comparison I've heard a few times before, comparing New Orleans to Venice, Italy.
A few points:
1). The islands that make up Venice are each and every one
above seas level. The Italians might be too emotional and socialist for American tastes, but if someone proposed builting a city below sea level there, I'd wager the Italians would have the good sense to string them up like Mussolini.
2). Question: How many hurricanes does Venice experience each year? Answer: Zero. Venice would be flooded and flattened by even a minor hurricane.
As far as the Netherlands go, they had to push back the sea because there was literally nowhere else for them to go. We've got areas of the United States that are so wide open that they will all but pay you to move there.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 16, 2005 12:21 PM (2cgwG)
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Perhaps the FRENCH should get their asses over here and "FIX IT" since they are the ones that built it anyway. Shame on them.
Posted by: ! at September 16, 2005 05:20 PM (hif5L)
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Good blog, Confederate Yankee. I spent five years on the Outer Banks of North Carolina, and you will never see me building a city there. Hurricanes are inevitable, and it doesn't matter who is President, you are going to get hit hard!
Posted by: Tom T at September 16, 2005 06:23 PM (ywZa8)
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I listened to an interview with a Tulane history professor today who said that, while the French Quarter, the Garden District, and Uptown would recover nicely, he feared that the older, poorer neighborhoods near Lake P. might not return to their original, seedy glory.
Sneeringly he said that the wooden, ramshackle domiciles, which provided the city with its "caribbean flavor" might be replaced with "prefabricated townhomes."
Oh dear. Prefabricated townhomes. They might have indoor plumbing, insulation, or air-conditioning. How dreadful.
I live in the deep South, a region that has, since Reconstruction, hypnotized many with the perceived charms of a low-rent lifestyle. For NO, jazz and blues only intensified these charms; but I wonder how many more people believe that these poor NO communities (which do remind me of Jamaica, except that Jamaica reminds me of the Third World) represent some type of quaint, do-not-disturb habitat whose denizens are the caretakers of the city's soul?
Two quick points about the professor, whose name I don't remember: he's lived in NO for only nine years -- not exactly a life-time resident; and he put his family up in a Houston highrise before the storm hit.
Posted by: coffee is for closers at September 16, 2005 09:25 PM (bcLXN)
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Let's make the N.O. bowl a landfill. In ten or
twenty years, it will be back above sea level.
Then, we can rebuild it.
Posted by: George at September 17, 2005 11:44 AM (iKT22)
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RE:
Two quick points about the professor, whose name I don't remember: he's lived in NO for only nine years -- not exactly a life-time resident; and he put his family up in a Houston highrise before the storm hit.
Posted by: coffee is for closers at September 16, 2005 09:25 PM
I believe this is Pro Douglas Brinkley you are speaking of
http://www.c-span.org/Search/advanced.asp?AdvancedQueryText=douglas+brinkley&StartDateMonth=&StartDateYear=&EndDateMonth=&EndDateYear=&Series=&ProgramIssue=&QueryType=&QueryTextOptions=&ResultCount=10&SortBy=bestmatch
What would americans do without coffee? Port of NO's is the busiest central point in the entire world, we need to build to support this maritime industry, the trains are now moving, so industry does not suffer in america. I would think building on the far outerbanks of metropolitan NO's would benefit everyone, with an exception of also a new transit system as mentioned above
Posted by: *flo* at September 17, 2005 04:13 PM (7RQKL)
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I'm hoping that these much vaunted promises to rebuild N.O. will just sort of vanish with time. Certainly those parts of historic N.O. that weren't destroyed should be preserved as much as possible, but everything else seems like a waste of taxpayer money. Why build a huge City below water level? It makes sense in Holland, where practically the whole country is below water level and they have few other options aside from simply jettisoning their nation, but we've got a bit of space to spare in the rest of the U.S.
Also, to the extent that N.O. was one of the most crime-ridden cities in the U.S. (the most crime-ridden?), why recreate that magnet. Better to disburse the criminal element, where their lack of population density and their removal from home territory might weaken them.
Posted by: Bookworm at September 18, 2005 10:12 PM (btn7/)
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Travis said:
We do need a port in New Orleans but thats all we need there.
And houses for the port workers. And restaurants for the port workers. And gas stations and grocery stores and department stores for the port workers.
And houses for all those who work in restaurants and gas stations and grocery stores and department stores. And banks for all of those people to put their money. And car dealerships. And insurance agencies. And so on.
Pretty soon you have a city, don't you?
I'm not saying we shouldn't think hard about how and where we rebuild. (For instance, the current Administration proposal to create trailer-park cities is clearly the wrong way to go.) It's just that the Port of New Orleans affects a lot of commerce in this country, and it's very difficult to get those benefits without providing for a city
somewhere in that area.
Posted by: Kenneth Fair at September 20, 2005 06:53 PM (kF+CQ)
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Kenneth Fair said:
It's just that the Port of New Orleans affects a lot of commerce in this country, and it's very difficult to get those benefits without providing for a city somewhere in that area.
Erm... Well, you USED to need a city to run a port, but ports are quite automated nowadays. As proof: New Orleans is still a ghost town, but the Port of New Orleans is back in operation, and has been for awhile. The port employs something like 1000 or so people. With family, and support businesses, that might requite a small town, but not a major city.
Posted by: Monsyne Dragon at September 26, 2005 12:08 PM (HABmw)
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September 14, 2005
Durbinizing the Superdome
Does this scene sound
vaguely familiar?
"When you read some of the graphic descriptions of what has occurred here -- I almost hesitate to put them in the record, and yet they have to be added to this debate. Let me read to you what one FBI agent saw. And I quote from his report:
"On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a evacuee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more... On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The evacuee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the evacuee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor.
"If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Louisianans had done to evacuees in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime -- Pol Pot or others -- that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Louisiana politicians in the treatment of their citizens."
When these words were uttered by Illinois Senator Dick Durbin in June, he was speaking of Guantanamo Bay, and the alleged treatment of al Qaeda terrorists in the care of the American military. It is sad that by substituting a few words we could so easily capture the desperate conditions Americans forced upon Americans just last week in the Louisiana Superdome.
The allegations of torture at Guantanamo Bay turned out to be false. The desperate situation in the Superdome turned out to be all too real.
I wonder if Dick Durbin and his fellow Democrats will be able to summon the same vigor to prosecute the authorities responsible for the torturous conditions of Louisiana Superdome, as they did for those they felt were responsible for Guantanamo Bay.
Sadly, I don't see that their character will be up to the task.
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Don't be absurd. To do so means they'd have to shine a light on the local governments, and as we all know, everything they did was RIGHT.
Posted by: the anchoress at September 14, 2005 10:18 AM (Sp817)
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So quick to bash Durbin and the Democrats with a lame comparison to Guantanamo, but I fail to find any mention on your web site of Bush taking responsibility for the Federal gov's lack of response, at least as a headline, which it should be, to at the very least, pretend, to have a balanced discussion of Katrina's aftermath.
Anyways, as to Durbinizing the Superdome; to compare a "controlled" environment like the penitentiary that is Guantanamo to the "uncontrolled" environment that was the Superdome is silly. No public official at any level could have possibly allowed or prevented what happened there.
I would love it if people on the left and right would actually talk about what can be done to prevent a disaster (not the hurricane, but the response disaster) so that a disaster like this can be prevented in the future.
Yankee, where is the headline of the environmentalist's law suit that prevented the construction of a flood wall ordered by FDR and how that would have prevented the N.O. flood. Let's speculate about that and continue to ignore how our government (ALL levels not just the local ones your patrons want arrested) should have acted to save lives.
Posted by: John at September 14, 2005 11:41 AM (Hle+/)
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John, as the media has been quick to jump on (and in many cases blatantly mischaracterize) President BushÂ’s comments, I felt no need to restate BushÂ’s apology. He stood up, and accepted a responsibility that wasnÂ’t his cross to bear because he exerted
leadership.
It is quite another thing, however, to ask Democrats to own up their own far greater mistakes in this tragedy. Not one Democrat, on any level, has accepted the least bit of blame in the mismanagement of the evacuation, rescue, or recovery efforts resulting from Hurricane Katrina.
Certainly not the Mayor, who canÂ’t find hundreds of buses under his control, much less the written disaster plan in his office that explained how to use them.
Certainly not the Governor, who threw up her hands in despair and declared the situation “untenable” before she fell apart, but not before she ordered the Red Cross and Salvation Army to be barred from getting near those citizens who needed them teh most, just miles away.
Certainly not Congressman William Jefferson, who pulled National Guard air and ground units away from rescue operations so that he could gather personal effects—“a laptop computer, three suitcases, and a box about the size of a small refrigerator”—from his Marengo Street mansion, while his constituents were trapped and dying in flooded attics and on rooftops around the city.
Democrats, each and every one.
You make the outrageous claim, “No public official at any level could have possibly allowed or prevented what happened there.” Utter
horsecrap. If that is the case, then why did you just blame Bush?
Spin, spin, spin, little liberal.
Say what you
wanted to say, and what you really believe:
“No
Democrat at any level could have possibly allowed or prevented what happened there.”
That, too, is utter
horsecrap.
Ray Nagin failed to follow the written and agreed upon New Orleans Hurricane evacuation plan to use hundreds of municipal and school buses to evacuate the poorest of New Orleans out of the city before the storm made landfall.
He completely failed to do so.
As a result, far more people were trapped in New Orleans than there should have been. Using just the public transportation assets at his disposal, he could have evacuated a minimum of 20,000-25,000 people if those buses made
just one trip. In four trips, Nagin could have emptied the city of everyone who wanted to leave (some fools would choose not to leave under any circumstances).
If Nagin had been marginally competent in following the disaster plan set forth before him, the number of people needing rescue would have been far less, making all rescue, recovery, law enforcement and humanitarian efforts less difficult by an order of magnitude. But Nagin failed in his responsibilities, and he failed almost completely.
Kathleen Blanco failed to know the very responsibilities and duties of her position, and misused that position to impede relief efforts on the state, federal and private levels.
Only Governor Blanco could have moved elements of the Louisiana National Guard into New Orleans to maintain order. Only Governor Blanco controlled the Louisiana Dept. of Homeland Security, which at her order, stopped the Red Cross and Salvation army from supplying food, water, and medical care to evacuees trapped at the Superdome. Blanco failed in her responsibilities, and she failed almost completely.
Your idea of a balanced discussion to is blame the federal government because it is Republican, while absolving the far more culpable Democratic local and state governments of all blame.
You want to know how to prevent the next response disaster, John?
Start with yourself. While Democrats cringe at the words “personal responsibility,” you and only you are ultimately responsible for your own survival.
During a large-scale disaster, you and your immediate neighbors are going to be your only resources in the first minutes, hours, or even days.
In the first 72 hours, your front-line defenders in any disaster are your local community, municipal, and county emergency responders. No one should every expect help from anyone other than these people and yourselves in a major disaster. No one else can get there in time, and no one else knows the area well.
State assets, often in the form of the National Guard, come rolling in from the 2-3 day point onward with basic supplies.
The federal government will help with the long-term recovery, but never, ever plan on a federal response to save you. If you wait for a federal agency you are a fool.
If you plan on relying on the federal government to save you instead of yourself and your local emergency responders, you are a dead fool.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 14, 2005 02:00 PM (2cgwG)
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Can anyone stop talking about those schoolbuses? I didn't know who the mayor of NO was before Katrina, and I am certainly no apologist for Nagin. But his response to Tim Russert when asked why the school buses weren't utilized sounded, at least to me, somewhat plausible, which was that no drivers were available.
Human nature being what it is I can easily imagine that, as danger bears down on people, a natural response is to run like hell away from it, a desire that often trumps all others -- even the desire to be a hero.
Sure Nagin screwed up. Big time. He may be from the bayouland, but he is not stupid: if you gathered all the leaders who made life-endagering mistakes in this tragedy and let them form a circle, they'd all wait for that one schmuck to step into the middle and declare he/she might've done things differently; after all, you can not only pin all your problems to that single, hapless soul, but your own failures are much easier to deflect if other people are owning up.
As for Bush's admirable efforts to shoulder the blame I am impressed. As for his mother's tone-deaf comments about the people in the Astrodome, I can only ask: has she been vacationing with the royal Brits? She sure sounds a lot like them.
Posted by: coffee is for closers at September 14, 2005 05:49 PM (bcLXN)
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coffee,
You really by the "no drivers were available"
defense?
If I even go on trial, I want you on my jury.
First, Nagin
had access to all the bus drivers in New Orleans. Municipal bus drivers report to the city, and therefore, he is their boss. He also has contacts with the school district, who has control of the drivers. Ever if he did not have professional drivers, he had no excuse.
Anyonewho has experience driving a car can drive a schoolbus well enough to take it from the Superdome to an on-ramp and down the interstate.
Nagin's excuse, no matter how you cut it, is a poor one.
As far as major blame goes, I think you will find it really boiled down to 2-4 individuals being the most foul. Nagin and Blanco both should lose their jobs over this, and may be culpable for criminal charges. I'm still researching that. Others should lose their jobs, but may not have done anything illegal, just immoral (Gretna's police Chief Lawson), or incompetent (N.O. police chief Eddie Compass).
Barbara Bush's comment was:
"And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this — this is working very well for them."
After having spent time with evacuees this weekend and hearing their life stories, I'd have to say that for at least some of them, Mrs. Bush's comments were accurate, whether they sounded like Marie Antoinette, or not.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 14, 2005 06:23 PM (0fZB6)
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Excellent contrast. But as everyone knows, the whole thing was Bush's fault.
Not really of course, but if you expect ANY accountability for local/state inaction after the C.Y.A. snowjob of the last two weeks, you must be smoking something illegal.
Posted by: Mike's America at September 16, 2005 01:57 AM (SHL+1)
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C. Yankee,
You claimed that finding facts was your actual job on another blog, so I am stunned by your response to my statement above (not that much really).
I never blamed Bush, I merely stated a fact; Bush took responsibility for the Federal governmentÂ’s involvement in the response to Katrina. I just found it interesting that you neglected to mention his statements as they pertain to the larger discussion at hand.
Then you label me a liberal (which, by the way, that statement alone labels you a conservative) and claim that I am therefore defending Democrats. I wrote "public official" and meant just that. Are most of the public officialÂ’s in LA and N.O. Democrats? It appears to be the case, so what? I stand by my statement; no public official could have prevented what happened at the Superdome, and certainly no one would have allowed it to happen.
It appears you want to make the case that it could have been prevented because you are hung up on the past and the actions of those in charge before Katrina made landfall. I believe that mentality will just maintain the status-quo and nothing will be fixed.
ThatÂ’s where my broader point of looking into the failures of all levels of government to respond to this disaster is more important now that Katrina did hit, N.O. did flood, etc. etc.
Will and should public officials at all levels be investigated and ultimately held responsible for their actions, or inactions, with out a doubt. I would not arrest them as your patrons suggest (which I realize I am becoming one of them by continuing to check out your web site). I personally believe Blanco was way in over her head and ultimately made some horrible and costly decisions, but wait I am a "Democrat," so I believe she is a saint and is flawless.
I do believe that the Federal government is ULTIMATELY the ones responsible for the well being of all of this nationÂ’s people. Therefore, I believe that they are responsible for a quick and prepared response to disaster, i.e. have a plan of action. What has the Department of Homeland Security been doing if not this very thing? This is where I personally believe the federal government failed us all(does this make me a liberal, not really). FOUR years after 9-11 I was convinced we would have been more prepared.
NO ONE had a plan of action in response to this disaster and that is wrong. The fact that individuals did not follow a plan of action (Nagin not using the buses he is supposed to use according to the city's plan) before the storm is, unfortunately, in light of the over all failure to respond, a mute point. It is important to investigate that as part of a broad investigation to the whole disaster, but it wonÂ’t save any house or person affected by Katrina now will it?
Posted by: john at September 16, 2005 11:59 AM (Hle+/)
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John you leap at logic, but you rarely get there.
Your comment that by calling you a liberal I make myself a conservative is a logical fallacy. Does that mean that if I said you were male, then I would automatically be female, or vice versa? Of course not. You arrive at the correct conclusion through no fault of your own. Alas, it is one of the few statements get you get right even getting there by mistake.
Prevention was the first key to the Superdome disaster. If Mayor Nagin had followed the cityÂ’s written evacuation plans, the crowd at the Superdome would have much smaller, and authorities there would have had enough supplies, room, and manpower.
An adequate humanitarian response was the second major component. Govrnor Blanco refused to let food, water, and medical supplies be brought into the Superdome by the Red Cross and the Salvation Army. She bottlenecked the relief effort. In addition, she was non-responsive to demands to evacuate the area. Citizens who wanted to self-evacuate were not allowed to leave via the nearest bridge out because local police blocked the exit point, and even resorted to shooting warning shots over the heads of those who would escape.
Democratic officials
directy caused the situation at the Superdome, and after the caused it, they made it more intense and longer in duration by their actions and inactions. While Nagin caused the initial situation by failing to use the evacuation before the storm made landfall, he almost immediately began calling for support. Blanco reacted with a combination of inaction (not taking steps to effect an evacuation) and detrimental action (purposefully withholding water, food, and medical supplies). Police Chief Lawson made it worse by not letting people escape the situation.
That you would have the audacity to say that Nagin, Blanco and Lawson werenÂ’t responsible for command decisions they made marks you as incredibly partisan, or incredibly stupid, John.
The rest of your remarks arenÂ’t even worth addressing. You donÂ’t understand responsibility, and revel in nanny-state socialism. This is obviously not the country for you.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 16, 2005 01:09 PM (2cgwG)
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Your Lyin' Eyes
John at WuzzaDem finds that it's
all in the timing.
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In addition to being one of the more memorable "fake-cry" performances since Tonya Harding at the 1994 Winter Olympics, Mr. Broussard's style had that unconvincing, liberal creepiness of an Al Gore convention speech drama - syrupy thick with a cadence that even a dyslexic Jesse Jackson supporter could handle ("monday, tuesday, wednesday, thursday, friday"). Mr Russert's patented 2.3 second "the donkey ate my homework" delayed response was the perfect topper.
Posted by: Brian at September 14, 2005 02:39 PM (1u7XF)
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September 13, 2005
Nursing Home Owners Charged In Katrina Deaths
Via
2theadvocate.com:
The owners of St. Rita's nursing home in St. Bernard Parish were charged with 34 counts of involuntary homicide today, announced Louisiana Attorney General Charles Foti at a press conference.
Mable B. Mangano and Salvador A. Mangano, turned themselves into authorities and are in custody in the East Baton Rouge Parish Prison.
Foti said the arrests were in connection with the deaths of residents of St. Rita's during the Hurricane Katrina catastrophe.
He said it was the owners' duty to "follow reasonable practices" in safeguarding the well-being of the facility's residents.
"When accepting patients, it is their duty to provide a standard of care for them," Foti said.
"The pathetic thing is they were asked if they wanted to move them (the patients) out, and they said they did not," he said, noting that the owners of the nursing home had been repeatedly warned of the dangers of the approaching storm.
"Their inaction resulted in these deaths," Foti said.
These nursing home owners are responsible for their charges, and they failed a sacred trust, not to mention a basic human duty.
Other people also failed those that depend on them in Louisiana... we'll see if they are also charged for their ineptitude that contributed to at least some of the deaths of the 400 people recovered from Katrina's floodwater's so far.
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I was listening to Judge Andrew Napalitano on FOX earlier today, and as outspoken as he is, his comment was something to this effect, "Cases like this are the reason we have trial by jury..."
I have to agree... A jury trial is bound to happen, and the civil suits will be outrageous...
There was also a point made that was roughly this, "Would they have been able to stand, and live thru an evacuation in a Cat 4 or 5 Hurricane??"
That spectulation has "Screw them, I AM OUTTA HERE" written all over it IMO...
Posted by: TexasFred at September 14, 2005 10:58 AM (qX3iX)
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Yes, this screams for a jury trial, but I think that if the owners are smart, they'll try and cut a deal. Hearing about 34 individual cases of death in detail will surely provide the jury with enough emotional content to want to administer the death penalty without delay.
The lawyer for the owners is already laying groundwork for the defense - that it was too dangerous to move these patients because doing so while they were connected to feeding tubes or ventilators/oxygen could have resulted in their death.
The counter is that not moving them increased their risk of injury or death to near 100% due to the severity of the storm.
Also, no one seems to know why they hestitated - though there is a story that the owners were waiting for a mandatory evac order. The parish coroner had called the home wondering if they needed help in evacuating, which should have given the owners an inkling of the severity of the situation, but that didn't seem to get across.
But, another possiblity is that the owners will try to pin this on parish officials for not declaring a mandatory evacuation, which they would have done - again by balancing the risk of keeping the patients in situ versus moving them to higher ground.
Posted by: lawhawk at September 14, 2005 09:49 PM (B4UlN)
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Nagin Bails?
Why has New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin
moved his family to Dallas?:
Mr. Nagin was speaking from the Dallas area, where, he told the New Orleans Times-Picayune, he has bought a house for his family and enrolled his young daughter in school. He said he would remain in New Orleans while his family lives for the next six months in the Dallas area and would make visits when possible.
He didn't just move his family out of the flooded area, he moved them 520 miles and 1/3 of the largest state in the Union away.
So the $64,000 question: Why?
I don't think it will take a rocket scientist to see that Nagin might be out as Mayor once his failure to follow the written New Orleans evacuation plan is widespread knowledge among his scattered constituency. As his many failures in leadership are quite arguably to blame for many of the deaths in New Orleans, moving his family might be safety issue as well.
Of course, since the people he screwed over the most didn't even have enough transportation to make it out of New Orleans to Gretna, moving his family all the way Dallas might have been overkill.
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Well, you know the old saying about rats leaving a sinking ship! I'm sure Nagin will go back to the cable TV business, just don't count on him to fix your sevice in a timely manner!
Posted by: Tom T. at September 13, 2005 09:22 AM (6krEN)
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How can we blame Bush for this?
Posted by: The Man at September 13, 2005 10:15 AM (EDlAL)
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Having made several comments on Nagin and his lack of competence, and having let you folks know that I was born and raised in Louisiana and had a pretty good idea about what I was talking about when it came to Dem Politics in Louisiana, now I have gotta tell you, I live in Dallas County Texas now, have for quite a number of years and it just makes me ROLL to think of the possibilities here...
Dallas has:
1. A VERY liberal Mayor, Laura Miller (D)
2. And a LESBIAN, open and admitted, County Sheriff in the person of Lupe Valdez (D), the 1st female Sheriff Dallas ever had and for damn sure the 1st Latino and Lesbian..
Nagin is gonna fit in just fine with this bunch of crooks and pervs...
Posted by: TexasFred at September 13, 2005 12:29 PM (qX3iX)
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why would you buy a house if you only plan on living there for 6 months? He plans on staying.
Posted by: adamboysmom at September 13, 2005 12:49 PM (dHkYi)
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Katrina, Liberal Professors, and Other Natural Disasters
“Feel free to circulate my opinion.”
Okay dear, you asked for it.
The following section come from the words of a liberal professor at a nearby university, responding to a colleague that posted a "chain of responsibility" email that explained how the government chain of command ran in New Orleans, and how it should work.
The "chain of responsibility" as the colleague called it, ran from local responsibility to federal responsibility in this order:
- the Mayor (Ray Nagin)
- the New Orleans Director of Homeland Security (Terry Ebberts)
- the Governor (Kathleen Blanco)
- the Head of Homeland Security (Michael Chertoff)
- the President (George W. Bush)
It is more or less accurate, though it is certainly simplified, as the colleague left out the Louisiana Homeland Security office (state level), that reports to Governor Blanco, and she left out a Michael Brown-led FEMA altogether (though as I write this, Brown has stepped down).
Still the colleague's hierarchy was more right that wrong.
Sadly, this liberal college professor, like so many ordinary, non-EdD and PhD (piled higher and deeper) types, is so wrapped up in her partisanship that she can't tell fact from fiction. Read her response first and see if you can spot her errors. I'll provide a proper Fisking on the other side:
Another valid perspective:
How about that the government was studying this (with our money) for 4 years - and cutting the budget to fix the levies [sic] (admittedly this was also cut under Clinton which was shameful)? Why were they budgeting anything at all if this was a private sector issue? And - since the levies protected an entire, extremely vulnerable city - how could anyone in good conscience say - it is the responsibility of property owners only? The buck stops with the person at the top. Always has and always will. In this situation, that happens unfortunately (for me and others) to be GW and his poor administrative choices, Chains of responsibility as a defense for the "blame game" don't make it in most crises situations. Try telling that to the homeless.
This piece sounds more like " blame the victims" but protect the government at all costs. I am glad this kind of thinking wasn't directed toward members of this community during Floyd. Granted, aspects of this article are probably true. The crime and violence in the Astrodome was absolutely horrifying. Given the blatant irresponsibility of some of New Orleans's citizens - why did the gov't issue $2,000 each worth of "get rich free cards" on Wed. (given to countless numbers to "empower them" to buy what?). Fortunately, someone caught the stupidity of that one and cancelled the program on Friday (when they fired the Fema Undersecretary) . When our Pres. visits Trent Lott's house and promises to rebuild it "bigger and better than ever - can't wait to be sitting on his front porch again..." - I think he is absolutely clueless regarding the plight of the poor and general human suffering. That truly frightens me. ...
By the way, watch out for Ophelia - because if we are affected, there will be nothing left for us. Wish we had more National Guard Troops at home to assist those in need right here in the US of A.
The fact that the Republicans feel the need to put forth something like this - which is blatantly political - lllustrates their defensiveness and concerns regarding the next election. Indeed, they need to be very worried.
Obviously, I have strong feelings about this too or would have let it go by. Feel free to circulate my opinion.
So how many mistakes did you find in our little liberal's canned argument? Let's take it from the top.
Another valid perspective
Sorry, but the good doctor (EdD) doesn't make it past the title on this one. You either have a chain of command, or you do not. The chain of command did leave out some key roles, and if the poster was going to address these missing roles, then the title may be valid. As we will soon see, though, the professor completely blows it. She does not in any way understand the hierarchy, and seeks to flatten it completely (everything is Bush's fault) in an effort to assign blame, hence even her title is wrong, as her hierarchy is invalid, making her claim to have a valid perspective incorrect.
How about that the government was studying this (with our money) for 4 years - and cutting the budget to fix the levies [sic] (admittedly this was also cut under Clinton which was shameful)?
Governments at various levels on two continents have been aware of levee problems in the Mississippi Delta at least since 1832 when English novelist Fanny Trollope wrote about New Orleans levees in 1832 (thank you, Michael Kinsley). Levee problems were not suddenly discovered during the Bush administration. They have been a constant concern for the citizens of New Orleans for well over a hundred yearsÂ… as has been the corruption of New Orleans and Louisiana officials that have failed to secure matching funds, misappropriated the funds they were allocated, and were so poor in money management that they lost the ability to restructure their debt.
In addition, the state of Louisiana thought so little of levee improvements that they spent less than one tenth of one percent of their 1998 budget -- $1.98 million -- to levee improvements in the New Orleans area. In 2001, the Orleans levee board was forced to defer capital improvement project because the locals rejected a tax increase to fix the levees. The levee board did manage, however to spend $2.5 million on one restoration project—of a water fountain. That, too, was well over budget. In short, New Orleans and Louisiana bear almost all the blame for not funding their levee system They couldn't even meet the federal government halfway. Why should someone in Boise or Boston be forced to pay for a Louisiana-benefiting project that won't even sell in Baton Rouge?
It is also worth noting that under the present administration, Louisiana has received more money for Corps of Engineers construction projects ($1.9 billion) than any of the other 49 states. California was a distant second with less than $1.4 billion, even though its population is more than seven times larger.
Why were they budgeting anything at all if this was a private sector issue? And - since the levies protected an entire, extremely vulnerable city - how could anyone in good conscience say - it is the responsibility of property owners only? The buck stops with the person at the top. Always has and always will.
Simply a reading comprehension issue, proving even a EdD can be semi-literate. These lines were responding to the claim that:
Â…the levees that broke were the responsibility of the local landowners and the local levee board to maintain.
The original contention was never just that the landowners were responsible, but that the landowners and the levee board were responsible.
These political cronies, six of eight appointed directly by the governor are the group with primary responsibility for the levees around New Orleans, as noted here:
The Orleans Levee District, a quasi-governmental body, is responsible for 129 miles of earthen levees, floodwalls, 190 floodgates, 2 flood control structures, and 100 valves. The governor appoints six of the board's eight members, and they serve at his pleasure. When a storm approaches it is responsible for closing the hundreds of hurricane protection floodgates and valves on levees surrounding the city. All residents outside of these levees evacuate.
The District's General Fund accounts for all operating funds for the daily operations of the Administrative Offices, Field Forces, Law Enforcement and support operations necessary to maintain the Board's level of services for flood protection and public safety.
The District's Special Levee Improvement Projects Fund (SLIP) accounts for the capital funds for major maintenance and/or capital improvements of all physical property and plant owned by the Board that is identified as directly related to flood protection.
So as the levee board was appointed directly be, and serves at the discretion of, the Governor. There is no higher authority for the levee board that the governor that appoints them. Period. This buck stops with Kathleen Blanco, and nowhere else.
In this situation, that happens unfortunately (for me and others) to be GW and his poor administrative choices, Chains of responsibility as a defense for the "blame game" don't make it in most crises situations. Try telling that to the homeless.
While without factual merit, this passage is worth mentioning in that it shows that even a seemingly educated person can become completely illogical when politics are involved, especially when you combine a rabid ideology with a lack of knowledge about the subject at hand. The Executive branch is not responsible in any way for a state's municipal projects. The good professor knows nothing of government, and tries to cover it with an emotional appeal.
This piece sounds more like "blame the victims" but protect the government at all costs. I am glad this kind of thinking wasn't directed toward members of this community during Floyd.
There was a simple reason state and local officials were not blamed for anything during Floyd, dear professor: they responded competently to the disaster. States and individual communities affected by Hurricane Floyd held to their disaster plans. Mayors led their communities; they did not flee to the state capitol. Governor's led their states; they did not toss up their hands and declare the situation "untenable."
In addition, citizens of North Carolina and Virginia and other states did not take advantage of Hurricane Floyd to go on a rampage throughout their cities, looting jewelry stores, pawn shops, and pharmacies of everything of value, which the community of New Orleans, including many law enforcement officers caught on tape, did. Perhaps we didn't blame the victims of Floyd, because the victims of Floyd didn't attempt to rob their cities blind.
Granted, aspects of this article are probably true. The crime and violence in the Astrodome was absolutely horrifying.
It would have been horrifying—if it happened. Luckily, Houston, Texas, home of the Astrodome, was unaffected by the ravages of Hurricane Katrina, or by the looters and gang members that apparently took over the New Orleans Superdome after the New Orleans police department fell apart. Currently, 25,000 evacuees of New Orleans have been evacuated to the Astrodome where they are now being cared-for by big-hearted Texans.
As for the horror stories of multiple murders and gang rapes inside the Superdome, none have so far been confirmed by credible sources, although there were some confirmed deaths, including a suicide. The majority of suffering endured by the people trapped in the Superdome was the direct result of actions, and inactions, in Baton Rouge.
Given the blatant irresponsibility of some of New Orlean's citizens - why did the gov't issue $2,000 each worth of "get rich free cards" on Wed. (given to countless numbers to "empower them" to buy what?). Fortunately, someone caught the stupidity of that one and cancelled the program on Friday (when they fired the Fema Undersecretary) . When our Pres. visits Trent Lott's house and promises to rebuild it "bigger and better than ever - can't wait to be sitting on his front porch again..."
Debit cards of $2,000—hardly "get rich quick cards" by any measure—were distributed as a pilot project in Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio where there were plenty of things to buy. Perhaps if the good professor wee a tad bit better in geography, she wouldn't be quite as snarky?
Why were the cards cancelled? Not because there weren't places to use the cards, but because the wonderful social elements created by Johnson's "Great Society" were already abusing them.
President Bush wants Trent Lott's house to be rebuilt, as much as he wants everyone else's home to be rebuilt. Just because a liberal like the good professor hates Senator Lott, it doesn't mean that he has an less value than any other person. I'd ask the professor if she'd rather if Lott not be extended the same right to rebuild as others, but I fear that I might guess her not quite Christian response.
I think he is absolutely clueless regarding the plight of the poor and general human suffering.
Come from a tenured university professor who hasn't faced the real world outside of her sheltered academic enclave and her comfortable upper-middle class neighborhood in decades, she's got quite a bit of nerve talking about the "plight of the poor."
By the way, watch out for Ophelia - because if we are affected, there will be nothing left for us. Wish we had more National Guard Troops at home to assist those in need right here in the US of A.
The fact that the Republicans feel the need to put forth something like this - which is blatantly political - lllustrates their defensiveness and concerns regarding the next election. Indeed, they need to be very worried.
Complete and utter horsecrap, if you pardon my language.
Ophelia, which wobbles back and forth nearly in place, and in strength between a tropical storm and a marginal hurricane, is a threat for minor inland flooding and beach erosion, but no more than the nor'easters that pound the Carolina coast throughout the winter season.
Even if Ophelia came ashore a strong category three or four, there are enough law enforcement and National Guardsmen in North Carolina to take care of our own, and we have done many times before. We have seasoned disaster veterans in all levels of emergency management from the state to the local level, and a citizenry that reacts to save communities, not destroy them. Therein lies the difference.
Over 100 years of corrupt and incompetent Democratic leadership on every level, an incompetent and corrupt law enforcement system, and a gang and drug-riddled population created by Johnson's failed "Great Society" doomed New Orleans.
Mayor Nagin, who failed to follow the New Orleans disaster plan and move citizens out of the city using school and public buses, has fled to Dallas. Governor Blanco who sad the situation was "untenable" and "overwhelming," went on to prove it by refusing to let the Red Cross or Salvation Army enter the city. Other Democratic leaders like Gretna Police Chief, Arthur Lawson, refused to let New Orleans citizens escape the city, and even had officer fire shots at, or over, those who tried to escape.
North Carolina citizens do not have to worry about their leaders trying to starve them out, or trying to trap them in concentration camp-like conditions.
That you would try to coverup the massive corruption, cronyism and borderline genocide committed by the Democratic party of Louisiana and New Orleans, and actually blame it upon a federal government, that actually responded faster and in more volume than any of the past six major hurricanes, speaks ill of your motives, and your knowledge.
Obviously, I have strong feelings about this too or would have let it go by.
You probably should have, professor. You probably should have.
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Identify this horses A** of a professor and i'll make sure no one in my family ever gets close to the University that has low enough standards to hire her. And I do have family members that are PHD's, Doctors and the sort. Evidently they attended a regular unversity since they are all gainfully employed and providing for their families. She makes the old saying true 'Those who can, do, and those who can't stay and teach'.
Posted by: Scrapiron at September 13, 2005 02:06 AM (6krEN)
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Please remember that not all Ed.D., Ph.D. type university employees are liberal. While we may be in the minority, some of us think our liberal colleagues are looney also.
The great thing is that our students are becoming more and more conservative. Hopefully, they will be the next generation of Ed.D., Ph.D. types in our Southern universities.
Posted by: Houston at September 13, 2005 08:08 AM (AoJ8m)
3
"And those that can't teach, administrate."
Posted by: greg at September 13, 2005 01:13 PM (20/vO)
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September 12, 2005
Disasters and Choices
I'd
written a post on September 2 in response to Kanye West's ignorant statements made during the NBC telethon that "George Bush hates black people." This post led to an especially spirited comment thread, that I eventually locked down at 323 comments.
After locking down the thread, I received an email from someone we'll call "Spartakus" who took exception to this comment from poster calling himself "Sean John:"
I agree that all levels of the gov't failed NO. But the Federal Gov't knew - before Katrina hit -that the city and state did not have enough resources to handle this alone. We all knew that. FEMA knew that. BTW did you know that the Associated Press reported that the Army Corps of Engineers asked for $105 million for hurricane and flood programs in New Orleans last year. The White House carved it to about $40 million. But President Bush and Congress agreed to a $286.4 billion pork-filled highway bill with 6,000 pet projects, including a $231 million bridge for a small, uninhabited Alaskan island.
"Spartakus," as an government insider, had this to say in response:
I do not normally respond to blogs but found the thread on the issue of
Kayne West's comments interesting. I was intending to respond to Sean
John's statement "...the Army Corps of Engineers asked for $105 million for
hurricane and flood programs in New Orleans last year. The White House
carved it to about $40 million."
I work in resource allocation for a major organization of the Federal
Government ($700 billion). I wanted to point out to Sean John that cutting
funding like that is not uncommon. Why? Because (just like our own personal
lives) the total costs of government project requests are invariably always
higher than the funding available. In order to meet the limit of the annual
federal budget programs are reduced (or cut altogether) to meet the
established topline. We call this reduction/cutting of some programs as
"taking risk." What that means is that the program will take a reduction in
funding with the hope (an educated guess if you will) that it can handle its
mission utilizing a lower amount of money. Also, it is not done in an
arbitrary fashion, the reduction is usually taken where the agency requests.
An example is your own personal budget. Let's say that, rather than getting
your annual pay in 26 bi-weekly paychecks, I am going to give it all to you
up front on October 1st (the fiscal year). However, two years prior to that
you need to present me with a plan on how every single dollar is going to be
spent. You may also include items you would like to have, since I can only
give you a rough estimate of dollars you will have to spend.
Also understand you cannot "rob Peter to pay Paul." By that I mean your
"FY2007 Home Budget Plan" must be divided into many subcategories: Home Roof
Repair, Bathroom 1 Plumbing Repair, Fast Food Purchase from McD's, Fast Food
Purchase from Wendy's, Gas for Car A, Gas for Car B, Oil for Car A, New Tire
for Car A, Repair 1 flat tire for Car A.... (See how it works? This roughly
approximates the myriad of agencies vying for Federal dollars every year).
Now, since you planned for only 1 flat tire for Car A what do you do if you
have two? What you cannot do is take money out of your "Fast Food Program"
or "Home Roof Repair" because these are different agencies. You must pay
for the tire out of your Car A Repair funds. By not programming for two
flats you also took risk.
When I know how much money you can "execute" in FY2007 I will give you your
budget "topline." Invariably you will find that your topline is lower that
the available funding. So now you must cut some of your programs and in
doing so you must carefully evaluate each program and take risk when you
decrease the funding.
So the Federal Government and the Corps of Engineers took risk (the Corps
would have to show OMB what specific programs were to bet reduced/cut) when
they cut the initial request by $65 million. As we are now seeing, the
Federal Government will probably spend more than $65 million in direct and
indirect costs (indirect costs are those that we pay to our military and
governments employees who have responded. We would have paid them anyway
but we are paying them to do something in support of Katrina relief). The
government will probably pay these costs with supplemental budget
authorizations (but remember, cannot rob Peter to pay Paul usually applies)
although some of the burden of funding (FEMA, the National Guard, the
military) will be placed on agencies to fund (so they will have to find the
funds within their own organizations to pay, usually fuel costs).
Is it cut throat? Yes, it most certainly can be. But it is the reality of
government budgeting. Everybody wants a slice of the federal budget pie but
there is a limited amount of pie every year. [my emphasis -ed.]
To answer the blog threads of those who like to place blame for the slow
response I say it is too early to say. The problem with disaster response
is you do not get to really practice your plan. You usually have to execute
it in a real time situation and as Murphy's Law states: "No plan survives
initial contact with the enemy." Same is true for a disaster of this
magnitude. In the "hotwash" to come there will no doubt be enough blame
apportioned, but there will be success to highlight as well. Government
agencies usually end up learning from mistakes, it is unfortunate that
people must suffer during the learning process.
Something to think about,isn't it?
The federal government can't be there, at all times, being all things to all people. We've only got so much money to spend, folks, and we try to put it where it makes the most sense at the time. Even liberal Michael Kinsley recognizes that:
Democratic Sen. Mary Landrieu and other Louisiana politicians, for instance, have been flashing their foresight all over the tube. They say they asked repeatedly for more money so that the Army Corps of Engineers could strengthen the levees, but repeatedly the Bush administration actually cut the corps' budget instead.
The Corps of Engineers itself is feeling pretty smug. It has long wanted money to build levees that would even survive a Category 5 hurricane, let alone a measly Category 4 like Katrina.
Sure, and if there were a Category 6 or a Category 473, there would be a dusty Corps of Engineers report in a filing cabinet somewhere, asking for money to protect against that one too. The Corps of Engineers has done many marvelous things. But it would cement over the Great Lakes and level Mt. Rainier if we would let it. Its warnings about natural disasters are like the warnings of that famous economist who has predicted 10 of the last five recessions.
Hinsight is 20/20, folks, but if Louisiana was all that interested in building additional levees, they could have raised their taxes in their states for their needs. They made the choice not to.
That was the wrong choice.
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What slow responce? The feds were present before the storm hit. Subsequent to the storm, they have apparently moved as best they can with the road conditions and the flooding. But the obstiles that they met are not natural but the product of a disgusting local political situation. Both the governor and mayor suck. If you really want to do something to help our state begin writing to investigate these people and as many others in the state government as you can. What good does it do to attack Bush? My own opinion of him is poor as I think he is too liberal and too big government. But with national attention centered on LA think what a change you could make for us. We have been hampered for about 140 years by people like the governor and mayor and if you began an outside effort to rectify the situation, your would be helping more people in the future than you could calculate. Consider also that the responce was slow due to the fact that you had to have a gun to enter the city. NO has been a city controled by black gangs for about 35 years, in part thanks to efforts by Hanoi Jane in the 70's. Within the last 10 years you had to be nuts or a tourist to go to the city! Also, much of the government red tape was at the local level and is rediculous. You want a bloated fed department to cut the red tape in an idiotic local situation. It is amazing that the military is having to do this now. Stories are also emerging of the people in the Superdome and Convention Center being ruthlessly handled by the criminal element. Where were the NO police? Looting and generally not putting their asses out like they are supposed to. They need to be in jail! So please, get off Bush, help our state by writing the attorney general or the fed district attorney.
Posted by: David Caskey, MD at September 12, 2005 10:50 AM (6wTpy)
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The response to every disaster, whether natural or man-made, involves a chain of command. The actions of the Mayor and Governor are to me, as a former Fireman and E.M.T., incomprehensible. Where were the supplies? Where were the bus drivers? It's not that this hurricane sneaked up on a city, 80% of which is below Gulf of Mexico mean-high tide sea-level unnoticed! Heads should roll, but today they never do, they just bash Bush, and ask for more federal aid, when they can't account for all the money spent there for years!
Posted by: Tom Bosee at September 12, 2005 11:18 AM (M7kiy)
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I seem to remember that, after 9/11, or actually, ON 9/11, Republicans lined up to hang the blame for the whole thing around Clinton's neck. Sure, he had been out of office for 8 months. Sure, he increased anti-terrorism spending by about 500%, and took a shot at bin Laden, unfortunately missing. Sure, he convened the Hart-Rudman panel to study terrorism, and sure, that panel gave an in-depth report to Bush, chock full of recommendations that were ignored.
But no matter. This was Clinton's fault. Somehow, George Bush, the man who had been in charge of the country for 8 months at the time, had nothing whatsoever to do with it.
And now, a fortnight removed from one of the most shocking examples of incompetent emergency "management" in the history of the country, we are hearing, incredibly, that again the Bush administration is not to blame! "You do not get to practice your plan," says Spartakus.
But Spartakus misses the point. The problem is not that our plan wasn't "practiced". The problem is not that our plan needed to be "tweaked". The problem is that there WAS no plan! No command center, no one in charge, an absolute free-for-all.
Sometimes, I am amazed at how Bush seems to evade responsibility for everything that has gone wrong under his watch. And then I look at his sub-40% approval ratings, and I realize that maybe he's not getting away with it after all.
Posted by: dg at September 12, 2005 12:40 PM (Xuf5e)
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dg, THERE WAS A PLAN. Multiple plans, in point ofact.
New Orleans had a written disaster plan, and Nagin did not follow it. Louisiana has a disaster plan, and Blanco did not follow it.
Please explain to me how President Bush is responsible for the failures of long-time Democratic governments on teh state and local level, who have known the threat of this kind of storm to New Orleans for over 150 years?
George Bush did EXACTLY as much as the United States Constitution would allow, and the FEMA response to Hurricane Katrina was on-time, and in far greater volume than was the response to smaller hurricanes with less damage areas, such as Hugo, Andrew, Iniki, Fran, and Jeanne.
If you don't understand our system of government, perhaps you should refrain from commenting on it.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 12, 2005 01:56 PM (2cgwG)
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September 10, 2005
Hates Black People (The Conspiracy Show)
It's time for everyone's favorite show, “Who Hates Black People?” hosted by Kanye West.
Here's how we play, audience: pick an offense, and we'll tell you which racist cracker has committed the crime!
This week, we're going to focus on Hurricane Katrina. As you know, Hurricane Katrina was a hurricane created by Republicans and aimed at New Orleans to kill black folks on welfare.
Are you ready? Let's go!
Q: Which racist Republican created Hurricane Katrina by refusing to ratify the Kyoto Protocol?
A: George Bush*
* Please ignore the fact that the second largest emitter of greenhouse gases (China) was completely exempted from the agreement, and ignore the fact that Russia's influential Academy of Sciences called the protocol “scientifically unfounded nonsense,” or that the Leipzig Declaration on Global Climate Change by 80 academics and 25 meteorologists was skeptical that global warming even exists. Also, please ignore the fact that we are currently in a 3 million year-old ice age. Hurricane Katrina is obviously Bush's fault.
Q: Which racist Republican purposefully trapped 100,000 black citizens of New Orleans by not following evacuation plans?
A: George Bush*
* Please ignore the fact that it was (Democrat) Mayor Ray Nagin who failed to follow the written disaster plan to use buses to effect an evacuation of the City of New Orleans, even though he knew 125,000 citizens didn't have personal transportation. George Bush should have bought each one of them a car.
Q: Which racist Republican blocked the escape the black citizens of New Orleans that tried to escape over the bridge known as the Crescent City Connection?
A: George Bush*
* Please ignore the fact that those orders actually came from Police Chief Arthur Lawson (Democrat), who said, "If we had opened the bridge, our city would have looked like New Orleans does now: looted, burned and pillaged." Of course, Bush forced Lawson to say that.
Q: Which racist Republican ordered the Louisiana National Guard and Louisiana Department of Homeland Security to keep the Red Cross and Salvation Army away from the tens of thousands of sick and starving people trapped at the Superdome and Convention Center?
A: George Bush*
* Please ignore the fact that while President Bush is the Commander in Chief of federalized National Guard units, Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco (Democrat) is Commander in Chief of Louisiana's National Guard until she decides to hand control to the federal government, which she refused then and still refuses to do, despite the problems that has caused with the relief effort. It was under Blanco's orders that the Red Cross and Salvation Army were barred from entering New Orleans with relief supplies. Bush purposefully confused her by following the law.
Q: Which racist Republican violated the Second, Fourth, Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments of the United States Constitution by denying the remaining people in New Orleans the right to defend themselves from looters and thugs?
A: George Bush*
* Actually, It is New Orleans Police Chief P. Edwin Compass (Democrat) that violated and continues to violate the Second, Fourth, Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments of the United States Constitution, numerous provisions of the Louisiana Constitution, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and natural law. Of course, he did so because, um, ah.. oh wait, it is Democrats that hate people having a right to defend themselves, isn't it?
Well, that's all the time we have for today's show, but come back next week after Hurricane Ophelia makes landfall on Myrtle Beach to see Jeff Foxworthy Host “Who Hates Rednecks?”
Update: Via Ace of Spaces, Strange Women Lying in Ponds provides more evidence of the racial nature of Hurricane Katrina. Damn that Bush!
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Posted by: J.Wright at September 10, 2005 05:52 PM (zIUQ4)
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Awesome CY... Ya done good... Being FROM Louisiana, you have no idea how much it means to ME personally to know that others out there *Get It*...
Posted by: TexasFred at September 10, 2005 06:36 PM (qX3iX)
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ice age huh? people in palm beach might be interested to know that. when you conservatives swallow the party line, you're worse than the soviets. will you pay to restore the planet once you've f***ed it up?
Posted by: joe at September 11, 2005 07:51 PM (HDulo)
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Sorry, joe but before I ended up in my eventual college major, I'd spent time studying geology and oceanography. Despite the fact that it might not be known to the all-knowing Oliver Willis or Duncan Black,
we are in the Pleistocene Ice Age, which began 40 million years ago, and intensified within the last 3 million years.
As a matter of pure fact, we are in a interglacial period
now but may be about to enter a glacial period, where the ice sheets advance.
Global warming? You'd better be far more concerned about global cooling, little liberal.
Here, I've
found it explained in kids terms from Indiana University. It might not be dumbed-down enough for you Evergreen State grads (who aren't smart enough to get out of the way of a bulldozer), but is is the best I can do.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 11, 2005 09:22 PM (0fZB6)
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key word being "may", since last ice age we human weren't driving suvs. and you seem a little hot under the collar. you conservatives sure don't like it when people disagree with you, huh? is that why you watch fox propaganda channel - so you won't ever have to face uncomfortable facts?
Posted by: joe at September 11, 2005 09:47 PM (HDulo)
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joe, I don't like listening to people disagreeing from a position of ignorance, as you are doing. You speak of global warming as fact, which it is far from being. I supported my contention. Where is your evidence?
I make you a deal: when you present some facts, I'll worry about answering them. Till then, you're just a proverbial dog in the night, barking at nothing.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 11, 2005 10:48 PM (0fZB6)
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actually, you didn't support your contention. you yourself said there "may be" a glacial phase coming. pretty big if, there. or did i miss the part where your speculation counts as proof? no wonder you conservatives want to teach intelligent design - it's just more of your speculation that you seem to regard as cold hard fact.
and since you can't seem to read above a third grade level, let me explain: i never said global warming is a fact (although it is, and even bush says so). i just want to know what you conservatives plan to do if your bet that it isn't happening turns out to be false. pretty big risk, wouldn't you say? and i don't know why you think you get to ruin the planet for the rest of us. of course, don't take my word for it: 99.99% of scientists agree, and the 7 or so who don't keep getting quoted over and over in right-wing mags. take a look sometime: the same ones over and over, because they're the only ones you can find who still think it's a myth.
Posted by: joe at September 11, 2005 11:07 PM (HDulo)
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Speaking of reading comprehension, what part of "we are in the Pleistocene Ice Age" is slipping past you? Was putting it in italics confusing? We are in an interglacial period, but
still in an ice age (have been for 40 million years) nevertheless.
I guess the kid's description I linked to was too complex...
You haven't proven anything, especially how us ratifying Kyoto is going to change global warming since China and India, two of the fasted growing economies are completely exempt (India) or not even a part (China, already the second largest producer of greenhouse gases, and projected to be the first soon).
So "99.9" of scientists agree global warming is real, and only 7 scientists? that that it isn't?
Prove it.
The Academy of Sciences (RU) says it is outright poltical B.S. Do you have
facts to proven them wrong?
Give me links, son.
Again, you're failing badly to support your contentions (any of them, in fact), and I'm hardly going to take you at your word when the kid's science pages are going over your head.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 12, 2005 06:10 AM (0fZB6)
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haha - i love pissing off conservatives. they get so heated and try to seem all tough and manly. they fall for it every time. you're so busy hurling insults that you don't even pay attention to what i say. thanks for letting me make you look stupid on your own website. sayonara.
Posted by: joe at September 12, 2005 10:28 AM (HDulo)
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If by "looking stupid" you mean that I made it obvious that you can't support one contention you've asserted, then gosh, you sure showed me!
Why with that kind of intellectual beatdown, I might just quit blogging altogether... Not.
It does go to show, though, that liberals such as yourself are very good at shouting, but not so good at backing up what you say with facts.
Toodles.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 12, 2005 10:52 AM (2cgwG)
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Even if we were one vote away from a black president I wouldn't vote for condolezza rice.
And I am black. She is much to blame as bush is.
Posted by: SHAKYM at September 13, 2005 06:53 AM (XyA0S)
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that is a bunch of crap.. bush is the best. you and your stupid racist crap.. get over it.
Posted by: earl at October 19, 2005 08:28 PM (6mUkl)
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September 09, 2005
New Orleans Hurricane Prison Riot Confirmed
First reported by a local ABC affiliate and then discounted as a rumor by a lack of supporting evidence, the story
Orleans Parish Prison Riot is starting to slip out in bits and pieces.
"I really didn't think we were going to get out of there alive," 52-year-old Deborah Williams said of her ordeal at the Orleans Parish Prison complex. "It really was a miracle from God."
Williams, along with several other guards and the 10- to 17-year-old inmates were moved to an 8-story building at the prison from a less-secure juvenile detention center in the hours before Hurricane Katrina hit the Gulf Coast because the prison was thought to be safer. By the time they were rescued, the building had flooded up to the fifth floor, a riot had broken out and been put down and most of the other inmates had been evacuated.
While flooding to the fifth floor seems to be a gross exaggeration, the rest of the story seems to match other accounts coming to light. Sadly, Williams' story also provides the first evidence of prisoners dying during the evacuation.
"Sometime Thursday morning, we heard helicopters outside," Williams said. "Then I heard someone calling my name — 'Williams! Deborah Williams!' — and I knew we were saved. We all started hugging each other, and soldiers started coming in from the roof."
Williams and the others were given life jackets and, because of the high water and the fact that many couldn't swim, they were tied together and pulled several blocks through the flooded streets of downtown New Orleans.
"It was horrible," she said. "Two of our kids drowned, and there was nothing we could do to help them. One of them was pregnant. There were bodies floating by, and the soldiers kept telling us to hurry, that it wasn't safe."
An Australian tourist, Ashley McDonald, was arrested for minor offenses and since freed, reported that prisoners were virtually abandoned in the days after Hurricane Katrina struck, and also confirmed both prisoner riots and escapes:
"They basically threw away the key to the jail for four days," he said.
McDonald said he and the other prisoners were basically abandoned by authorities in the storm's aftermath.
"We had no food, no water, no power, no air-conditioning, no toilets," McDonald said.
"A lot of people started breaking out and escaping and that's when attention was brought to the jail."
It was only then that the jail was evacuated and the prisoners shipped out, including many with homemade weapons. McDonald himself was threatened with a screwdriver once he arrived at the prison in Baton Rouge.
Perhaps the most disturbing vision of the scene inside the prison from corrections officer Shantia Barnes:
As Katrina raged Monday outside the prison on Perdido Street, water began seeping into the building where Barnes worked. Toilets began to back up. By Tuesday, the water inside was about 3 feet high and about 320 inmates had to be moved to the second floor, she said.
As water rose 5 feet high that evening, the situation became desperate, she said. About 40 civilians, including family members of prison workers, had also taken refuge at the jail. Word spread among the inmates that the Ninth Ward neighborhood of New Orleans, where many had family, was underwater. Unfed for days, the inmates began to riot inside their cellblocks, Barnes said.
"We had no phone lines, no electricity," she said. "There was raw gas in the water ... If it wasn't for the deputies, a lot of people would have died."
She believes many drowned anyway, including inmates housed on the first floor of the Templeman 3 building, where Barnes said that in the chaos, some inmates may have remained locked inside.
"We evacuated everybody who was at the jail as far as we know once we got there," said Pam Laborde, a spokeswoman for the Louisiana Department of Corrections, which helped evacuate the prison. Laborde said she could not confirm what may have happened before rescuers from her agency arrived.
Taken together, these accounts seem to paint a picture of scared prisoners rioting in an attempt to get away from rising floodwaters. A skeleton crew of guards was unable to easily put down the uprising, and as a result, inmates may have been trapped and drowned in rising floodwaters.
The media seems unwilling, or unable to present a full picture of the events inside the Orleans Parish prison, with only these fractured accounts from two guards and one inmate presenting a fractured picture of rioting, fear and death that runs counter to official pronouncements of orderly prisoner transfers to other Louisiana prisons.
What once seemed to be a bright spot in the failed evacuation of New Orleans now appears to be just another failure to adequately prepare by Louisiana authorities.
Note: This just kind of confirmed what Dan Riehl reported almost a week ago.
Previous:
Lambs Leading Wolves
Orleans Prison Riot
Hurricane Katrina's Harsh Sentence
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You mean this women lost tow of her children to drowning. HOW terrible. Unreal. I AM OUTRAGED.
ref. below..
While flooding to the fifth floor seems to be a gross exaggeration, the rest of the story seems to match other accounts coming to light. Sadly, WilliamsÂ’ story also provides the first evidence of prisoners dying during the evacuation.
"Sometime Thursday morning, we heard helicopters outside," Williams said. "Then I heard someone calling my name — 'Williams! Deborah Williams!' — and I knew we were saved. We all started hugging each other, and soldiers started coming in from the roof."
Williams and the others were given life jackets and, because of the high water and the fact that many couldn't swim, they were tied together and pulled several blocks through the flooded streets of downtown New Orleans.
"It was horrible," she said. "Two of our kids drowned, and there was nothing we could do to help them. One of them was pregnant. There were bodies floating by, and the soldiers kept telling us to hurry, that it wasn't safe."
Posted by: ! at September 09, 2005 10:13 PM (hif5L)
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The two girls killed were not her children, but inmates. "Our kids" were referring to juvenile offenders they were guarding.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 09, 2005 10:21 PM (0fZB6)
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Is this a good place to find information about other jails or prisons in the flooded areas? Were most area prisoners evacuated adequately? Do we know of other places where prisoners might have drowned, been restrained, or even abondoned in locked cells?
Posted by: flamingojake at September 10, 2005 06:43 AM (gC3H4)
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Keep in mind that this large prison was built and maintained in an area prone to catastrophic and sudden flooding in the event of a levee failure, just as the Big Charity hospital was. No one was concerned about it until the levee broke.
Posted by: Tresho at September 10, 2005 11:59 PM (fn3pr)
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Grossly Overstated
A lot of folks are hyping figures tossed out by New Orleans Mayor
Ray Nagin and Louisiana U.S. Sen.
David Vitter that deaths in New Orleans are in the range of 10,000 dead.
I'm going on the record and saying that the actual body count will be far lower than these estimates, probably in the range of 3,000-3,500 dead. Why?
The bodies just aren't showing up as you might expect as the floodwaters recede. If deaths were on the order of 10,000 in Louisiana, Reuters photographers wouldn't have to ask to join FEMA on rescue boats to find bodies to feast on; corpses would be piling up like driftwood at chokepoints and finding bodies to exploit would be no problem at all.
But that isn't occurring, and the simplest explanation is that far fewer people died than expected. We heard grossly over-inflated estimates in the hundreds or even thousands when Hurricane Floyd came through North Carolina back in 1999 and caused extensive flooding. 47 died, not 470, or 4,700.
Thankfully, the lack of bodies recovered so far indicate that this might also be the case with Hurricane Katrina.
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Good post! What happened here in NYC after 9/11 was that we were told there were over ten times the number of deaths than what was the true figure. The reason for this inflation was that relatives in other countries contacted their state departments, to search for people they had not heard from in a while; some didn't know one part of New York State from another. I think that in this current disaster, being so politicized, the media would be showing rows of body-bags, if they existed!
Posted by: Tom Bosee at September 09, 2005 07:19 AM (M7kiy)
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"Thankfully, the lack of bodies recovered so far indicate that this might also be the case with Hurricane Katrina."
I'm certainly praying that that is the case and I know that you guys are as well. On a hopeful note, I see that 2/3's of the refugees that were in the Astrodome have been able to find outside housing and, in some cases, jobs in Houston (which apparently was suffering a glut of open positions). For some, this disaster may turn out to be a blessing in disguise.
Tob
Posted by: Toby928 at September 09, 2005 12:34 PM (ATbKm)
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Good post.
There's nothing evil or slanted here. Just difficult to enumerate death. Harder than you realize
Stick to the lower, at least, number
Posted by: don surber at September 09, 2005 12:44 PM (OIxNx)
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Lets hope there are far far far fewer than anybody is predicting.
Posted by: muckdog at September 09, 2005 07:15 PM (dE5CK)
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Naturally the ghouls that are body counting will not deduct the normal number of people who die daily in a city the size of N.O. They will hype it that they were all killed by the Hurricane. There is no honest news reporters nor media outlets these days, just a bunch of idiots with a camera and a pencil. Look at the number of them in the way of the rescue across the south. All they did was suck up the water and food that the people needed. I have yet to see any of them tell the people (48 % who are stupid dim-wits) that there are several stages to a rescue operation, and 'rescue' is the primary one. Recovery of the dead is the last priorty. I will ignore a dead person (throw a sheet over them and move on) in a vehicle crash until the living have been taken care of, normal operating procedure everywhere. Anything else is a waste of manpower and resources.
Posted by: scrapiron at September 12, 2005 01:35 AM (M7kiy)
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September 08, 2005
Dependence + Stupidity, Kills
Listening to
WPTF Radio on the way home this afternoon, host
Bill LuMaye noted that many of those poor - and now feared dead - citizens of the areas heavily flooded by the levee breaks in New Orleans had refused to leave their homes because they were afraid that if they evacuated,
they would not get their government assistance checks.
The reasons they gave were that:
- that they didn't trust their neighbors not to steal their checks, and;
- they were afraid their checks would blow away
*Pop*
That the mail would not be delivered in a city under a mandatory disaster evacuation apparently never cross their minds.
Some people claim that a lot of people drown in New Orleans because of their skin color. Is it impolite to mention that their economic situation might have more to do with their intelligence and education than their melanin content? Quite frankly, many people died not because they were of a certain race, but because they were stupid.
Sorry, but there it is.
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RACIST!!!!
BIGOT!!!!!
Ok, actually I agree, I was just trying to "thicken your skin" a bit for the impending accusations with which folks generally get blasted for telling the truth about the situation.
Along a similar line, I wonder which political party put the "projects" in the lowest part of the city?
Posted by: BoDiddly at September 09, 2005 12:26 AM (Bn7Z6)
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Anyone that doubts this has NEVER spent a day in New Orleans, or most anywhere in the deep south for that matter... I can't speak to how *inner city* America works up in *Yankke Land* but I can promise you, urban decay was rampant in NOLA.. And the *welfare* pipeline IS so well entrenched, it will never be broken as long as the people that were on the *dole* in Louisiana are allowed to continue to remain on the *dole* whereever it is they end up...
Try offering a *homeless* guy a job... You know the ones I'm talking about?? "Will work for food" guy on the corner of Major Hwy and Huge Ave... That guy... He'll laugh in your face..
Same deal in NOLA... Not ALL, but a rather large proportion of the former residents of NOLA would rather sit on their asses and draw welfare, foodstamps and anything else the government will hand them...
Posted by: TexasFred at September 09, 2005 05:20 PM (qX3iX)
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Quote: "Sorry, but there it is."
Up to that point, much respect. But why apologize for your opinion - especially when it is a logical conclusion?
I think we need to spend a lot less time apologizing in fear of offending someone and stand up for our beliefs.
The author needs to stop apologizing. Be a man.
Posted by: William Thrash at September 09, 2005 08:39 PM (yheG2)
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I remember hearing on the radio, the night before the storm hit, in one piece someone saying that if people didn't get out they wouldn't have enough body bags, and in the next, a woman saying that she was going to stay and "whatver happens is what happens".
So yeah, some people couldn't leave, but most were just too stupid to leave. That damned storm was the size of Texas, what the hell did they expect, a summer shower?
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at September 09, 2005 10:48 PM (0yYS2)
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Governor Who?
Stumble across the
official web site for the Louisiana Governor's mansion at
http://www.gov.state.la.us/mansion/letter2.htm, and you get a wonderful welcoming letter from the Governor—Governor
Murphy J. “Mike” Foster.
It looks like levee construction isn't the only thing that is out of date and/or under construction in Louisiana.
And MikeÂ…
Seafoam?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:19 PM
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Post contains 53 words, total size 1 kb.
1
The mayor and the governor will have their fates decided by the voters. Who will remove the director of FEMA, whose resume, background, and obvious performance have turned out to be a complete joke? He will not only get to keep his job, like fellow incompetents Tenet and Rumsfield, but will probably get a promotion.
There's an old saying in government: SCREW UP, MOVE UP.
Posted by: coffee is for closers at September 09, 2005 10:00 PM (bcLXN)
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Coffee, you need to have some. You're about
12 hours late:
Federal Emergency Management Agency Director Michael Brown, under criticism due to his management of Hurricane Katrina as well as reported discrepancies on his resume, has been ousted from disaster relief efforts.
And sources have told ABC News that Brown is also expected to be out as head of the agency very soon.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 09, 2005 10:41 PM (0fZB6)
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They need a retired flag officer to run an agency like that, not a Washington parasite bureaucrat.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at September 09, 2005 10:51 PM (0yYS2)
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