November 17, 2005
The Lies of Fallujah: The Hidden Massacre, Part 1
[
Note: Fallujah: The Hidden Massacre is a recently released film from Italian Rai News24, an offshoot of communist-dominated channel Rai 3, and was directed by Sigfrido Ranucci. Thanks to Sgt. B of
The Gun Line for the tip in
this post at
Argghhh!]
Starting with a lie
Kim Phuc, as shown in Fallujah: the Hidden Massacre
Fallujah, the Hidden Massacre, begins with a scene of horrified Vietnamese civilians fleeing a village after an air strike. Many are injured and burned by napalm, including a young girl who stripped naked to escape her burning clothes. The narrator of the Italian film explains that:
This is how a photo can speak about war, in Vietnam. Kim Phuc, age nine, whose fragile, naked body mutilated by the napalm thrown by the Americans, running, arms outstretched to escape death. It is 1972, and the image will circle the globe over...
Except this is alternative history.
On June 8, 1972, at approximately 1:00 PM, AE-1 Skyraiders belonging to the South Vietnamese Air Force based at Bien Hoa, bombed and strafed the outskirts of the village of Trang Bang near the Cai Dai pagoda. American forces were not involved in any aspect of this tragedy.
Nick Ut's 1973 Pulitzer Prize photograph
Phan Thi Kim Phuc says actions by photographer Huynh Cong "Nick" Ut that day saved her life.
But it was the South Vietnamese Air Force, and not Americans who rained fire upon the village of Trang Bang. It is an act of great arrogance and/or incompetence that Rai News 24 would try to rewrite the events surrounding one of the most famous photographed events of the Vietnam War.
Sadly, this is the mark director Sigfrido Ranucci makes throughout this truly incompetent and dishonest film.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Or, alternately, they simply just ASSUMED that it was the Americans that did that and never bothered to fact check this assumption.
Posted by: circlethewagons at November 17, 2005 01:27 PM (7Fqgx)
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'Fallujah, the Hidden Massacre, begins with a scene of horrified Vietnamese civilians fleeing a village after an air strike. Many are injured and burned by napalm, including a young girl who stripped naked to escape her burning clothes. The narrator of the Italian film explains that:
This is how a photo can speak about war, in Vietnam. Kim Phuc, age nine, whose fragile, naked body mutilated by the napalm thrown by the Americans, running, arms outstretched to escape death. It is 1972, and the image will circle the globe over...
Except this is alternative history.
On June 8, 1972, at approximately 1:00 PM, AE-1 Skyraiders belonging to the South Vietnamese Air Force based at Bien Hoa, bombed and strafed the outskirts of the village of Trang Bang near the Cai Dai pagoda. American forces were not involved in any aspect of this tragedy.'
I'm not condoning their program, but look at what they said: 'This is how a photo can speak about war' - the photo certainly shows that. Further, it says 'American forces were not involved in any aspect of this tragedy.'. Are you saying they were (gentle rib ;-) )?
Regs, Shaggy
Posted by: Shaggydabbydo at November 18, 2005 02:20 PM (YrK7Y)
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okay, the part in the gray text box? that i swhat the documentary claimed. the part after that was my
refutation of their lies, smarta--
;-)
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 18, 2005 04:41 PM (g5Nba)
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Hi Confederate Yankee,
Ah, sorry, yes.
Regs, Shaggy
Posted by: Shaggydabbydo at November 18, 2005 10:12 PM (YrK7Y)
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Wasn't south vietnam allied to americans? Who provided the weapons to them? Hmm!!
Posted by: joyia at November 22, 2005 03:04 PM (AFgop)
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What We're Fighting For
A great letter, via
California Conservative.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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A barely coherent screed rehashing tired talking-point arguments that should have been put to bed years ago. If rallying around nonsense like this is how the contemporary conservative movement is going to keep America safe then we're doomed.
Posted by: The Liberal Avenger at November 17, 2005 05:35 AM (kgBuS)
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I guess un-rewritten history and straightforward analysis would be incoherent for a liberal, wouldn't it?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 17, 2005 07:07 AM (0fZB6)
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This letter is an inspiration to me to continue the course of torturing Arabs and other Muslims, letting Osama continue to live and scheme, pissing off our allies and bankrupting this country, God bless Merica!
Posted by: Miserable Failure at November 17, 2005 08:57 AM (lho9Q)
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TLA, you need to buck down and clap harder there soldier.
Posted by: Miserable Failure at November 17, 2005 09:01 AM (lho9Q)
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November 16, 2005
Frist "Sheehan's" the War Effort
Bill Frist showed his political cowardice Tuesday,
co-sponsoring an amendment to a spending bill that undermines the troops and the war on terror. As
Residual Forces said in utter disgust, "Bill Frist is dead to me."
More on this tomorrow. Right now, I'm so pissed I can't see straight, and I don't want to say something I do not mean.
Update: Swift Boat Veteran Tom "River Rat" Mortensen does a wonderful job conveying the feelings I share in this letter faxed to Republicans senators who voted for the resolution. I'll just let him talk for me:
Senator,
Re: The American Surrender Resolution of 2005
I am named for an uncle who gave his life in the Pacific in 1942 for the freedom of this nation and its principles. My father lost a lung to bunker oil in the waters of the Pacific in 1943 for this nation and its principles. I carry shrapnel from two combat wounds and wear a Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat “V”, Navy Commendation Medal with Combat “V”, and two Purple Hearts acquired while defending this nation's principles on the rivers of Vietnam in 1968 and ‘69. I believe this grants me moral authority to say what follows.
I finally became a committed Republican in 1972 when a Democratic Congress voted to defund support of our allies in South Vietnam. That act of moral cowardice and treachery to our founding principles led to the death of millions in the killing fields of Southeast Asia.
Your vote yesterday in favor of what I'm calling the “American Surrender Resolution of 2005” is a travesty unparalleled in post-Vietnam American history. Your cowardice in face of an electorate deliberately misled by Democrats and a traitorous National Media is beneath contempt. It will lead directly to the death of now uncountable Americans and Iraqis and their graves will lie directly at your feet. Senator, you are a moral coward and the worst type of political panderer.
This vote provides direct aid and comfort to our avowed enemies. Thus Senator, you have no right so serve in elective office. I will work tirelessly to assure you are removed from office at the earliest possible date. I will spare no treasure or waking moment in this quest and anticipate the moment I can spit on your political grave.
I do commend with all honors the 13 Republican senators who stood up against the me-too cowardly Republican leadership: Bunning, Burr, Chambliss, Coburn, DeMint, Graham, Inhofe, Isakson, Kyl, McCain, Sessions, Thune, and Vitter. You should look to them for the courage you obviously lack.
Disrespectfully,
G. Thomas Mortensen
USA S/V Anticipation
Puerto Vallarta, Mexico
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Now hold on there a minute, ConYank. Sen. Warner's & Frist's compromise headed off the Demistan's proposed measure that demanded a timetable for withdrawal. Instead this bill calls for progress reports. President Bush has finally begun to stand up to the "Bush lied" meme. These progress reports can be another opportunity to use the bully pulpit.
Posted by: SicSemperTyrannus at November 16, 2005 08:59 AM (JSetw)
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Why so "pissed"? In manageing the big picture,(Victory)I'm sure it is tough to get it precise at every turn. One wants to put some presure on the Iraqis that they must be vigorous in assuming control of their destiny without sending too much hope to the "insurgents." Seems to me that things are unfolding as they should.
Posted by: Brian at November 16, 2005 02:29 PM (MyYr7)
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I haven't been to your blog before, but I like it. You are doing a good thing here.
You have written on your Template: "Because liberalism is a persistant vegetative state." Yep... just like Louisianna! (Pun intended)
Good job.
Regarding this particular post, don't know enough about this just yet to make a comment. Wouldn't want to speak on something I know nothing about. You might take me for a moonbat or something!
Posted by: Gayle at November 16, 2005 03:31 PM (4jhqP)
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November 15, 2005
Arkin Up The Wrong Tree
I've come to expect a certain level of dishonesty from the foreign media regarding the error-riddled white phosphorus "crockumentary" produced by Rai News24, but it is another thing entirely for a writer for a major American news organization based in our nation's capitol to uncritically repeat such "news", as has William M. Arkin in his
Washington Post piece,
"White Death" Is A Losing Strategy.
Arkin begins:
The military's use of white phosphorus during operations in Fallujah last year is making its way around the world media and blogosphere, with the claim being that the United States has again shown its inhumane side by using munitions normally reserved for smoke screens and target illumination to terrorize insurgents and kill civilians.
So the United States is "inhumane" when it decides to “terrorize" insurgents? Cry me a river, Mr. Arkin. I can't seem to work up the same amount of sympathy that you can for those that murder unsuspecting civilians on a near daily basis. Note that Mr. Arkin slyly works the language to portray killing civilians as a co-equal goal of the military mission in Fallujah, along with killing or capturing terrorists.
At least you can't accuse Arkin of hiding his biases.
The United States used "chemical" weapons, says the Italian media. A "war crime" says GlobalResearch.ca. "Illegal" and "banned" weapons say others. "White Death" says the African Mathaba.net.
He couldn't find any reputable news sources, but these will work well enough for his purposes... Just don't ask if the claims they make are "credible." They unequivocally are not.
The U.S. government's handling of the allegations has been typically clumsy and confused, fueling the controversy.
Thank the all-but-useless State Department for not being able to clearly state that white phosphorus is not a chemical weapon, and that the military does not intentionally target any civilians with any of our weapons. Even a blind hog will find an acorn every once in a while.
But what is most interesting here is why the Army chose to use white phosphorus as a terror and anti-personnel weapon, and why critics insist on labeling it "illegal" without ever recognizing the contradiction in their argument. Because the fight over white phosphorous has become so heated, it is likely that the military will stand firm behind its present policy and the commanders won't be held accountable.
Again, Arkin proves no compelling evidence at all that white phosphorus was used against civilians, nor can he justify his choice of calling a munition that has been in the conventional military arsenal of the majority of our allies and enemies, a "terror" weapon. It is an intentional misuse of language by Arkin, and a craven act. In addition, Army Field Manual (FM 3-6) states:
The purposes of incendiaries are to cause maximum fire damage on flammable materials and objects and to illuminate. Incendiary materials used include gasoline, gels, burning metals, incendiary mixes, and white phosphorus.
To be effective, incendiary munitions should be used against targets susceptible to fire or heat damage. A considerable part of the target must be flammable, so the fire can spread.
It might be another scientific shock to Arkin, but human bodies, made primarily of water, are not considered flammable by the military, and therefore, are not thought of as anti-personnel weapons.
It is also interesting that Arkin wants military commanders to be "held accountable" when he cannot even provide evidence that they did anything wrong, unless, perhaps, in Arkin's opinion it is simply criminal enough to be in the military while President Bush is in office.
Skipping down a few paragraphs we find:
The documentary shows close-ups of Fallujah civilians, badly burnt, their skin dissolved or caramelized. An Iraqi biologist in Fallujah is interviewed, saying, "a rain of fire fell on the city," burning people's flesh, but strangely leaving "their clothes intact."
This is sheer conjecture, by a highly-biased and suspect source, presented as fact.
Watch the crockumentary and you will see many bodies—well, not many actually, though they repeat then again and again to make it appear there are more than their actually are. Some are clearly wearing military load-bearing equipment as you would inspect an insurgent might, Many of the other dead and wounded, in fact the majority, appear to be military-aged men. As the insurgents are not in the habit of wearing uniforms, it is quite a stretch for the Italian documentary makers to claim these were civilians.
Further, Arkin does not have any basis for claiming that the state of the bodies had anything to do with specific weaponry without an autopsy performed by a trained pathologist, preferably one with military experience. The bodies in the video most often appear to be in advanced stages of decomposition, not suffering from burns, unless the easily observable maggots on some of these bodies were present before the people died.
And while some may consider it a minor point, it would also make sense to mention that the Iraqi biologist in question has been accused of being a supporter of the insurgency... if one was trying to be objective, that is.
Arkin also misses the large, obvious lie embedded in this segment: white phosphorus, which burns hot enough to melt light steel and iron, would most certainly burn through cloth. This is not up for debate, Mr. Arkin. It is a scientific fact.
The fact that the clothes are intact on the bodies shown is strong evidence towards disproving white phosphorus as being the cause of death. But don't believe me, Mr. Arkin, call a local university chemistry department.
Obviously, fact checking is not on Arkin's agenda, it gets in the way of his message.
A year ago, Arab media was filled with reporting that the United States also used napalm and incendiary weapons in Fallujah. Islam Online, a Qatar-based website, reported that U.S. forces used "chemical weapons and poisonous gas." According to the State Department, the claim was soon "posted on hundreds of Web sites." Even the UK Sunday Mirror carried reporting that the U.S. was "secretly using outlawed napalm" in Fallujah
He has no evidence, but once again more unsupported insinuation seems to be enough for him. Arkin refuses to do the minimal legwork it would require to find out if any Mark 77s were expended in Fallujah during the assault. They were no known sightings of the massive fireballs characteristic of such weapons, cited by so much as a single credible source. Not one.
The Pentagon categorically denied the use of any chemical weapons, but the U.S. government did admit that the Marines had used napalm-like incendiary weapons during the march to Baghdad in 2003, and the admission became conflated with the denial.
The U.S. further painted itself into a corner arguing that although it had removed its last napalm bombs from its arsenal in 2001, "napalm or napalm-like incendiary weapons are not outlawed."
He doesn't have any evidence, but he'll still insinuate his predetermined storyline. Damn the facts, full speed ahead!
Finally, the U.S. said that phosphorous was used only "very sparingly in Fallujah, for illumination purposes. They were fired into the air to illuminate enemy positions at night, not at enemy fighters."
That was from the State Department, which can't figure which end of a gun to point, and should never have been involved in this conversation.
Arkin then goes on to repeat this partial story, the he finds (not surprisingly) on a far left wing blog:
A year later, after the Italian documentary, the U.S. was again denying, but this time there was no denying that the claims about the use of white phosphorous appeared valid. Dailykos reported that the March 2005 edition (pdf) of the Army's official Field Artillery Magazine contained an article -- "The Fight for Fallujah" -- by three Army artillerymen that said:
"We used it [white phosphorous] for screening missions at two breeches and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with HE [high explosives]. We fired “shake and bake” missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out."
First, American military forces never claimed (to the best I can determine) that we did not use white phosphorus in the battle for Fallujah. White phosphorus was primarily used as a screening agent, a luminary, and as an anti-material weapon, as doctrine indicated. The "shake and bake" missions were a perfect example of this doctrine, and worked only because the insurgents know that white phosphorus is typically employed as a screening agent.
As the article stated, white phosphorus was used for screening mission so American forces could advance during the battle. The "shake and bake" mission were a "potent psychological weapon" because WP dropped upon their position made them fear they were about to be the immediate victims of an overrun attack by United States Marines. Marine forces were better armed, better armored, and better trained than their opponents, and the insurgents knew this. They tried to fall back to a more defensible position, but were mowed down by high explosive (HE) shells during their retreat. White phosphorus shook them, and HE cooked their respective gooses.
It is also interesting that rkin and his friends at Daily Kos couldn't seem to find this information in the Field Artillery Magazine article:
...TF 2-2 IN encountered few civilians in its attack south.
How willful do you think that omission was?
After skipping a few paragraphs, we find Arkin blathering on:
I for one am reluctant to pronounce whether the use of white phosphorous for "shake and bake" missions in Fallujah and the evident blundering use of white phosphorous in areas known to be occupied by civilians is illegal.
You shouldn't be reluctant at all. Civilians were given almost a week to evacuate by U.S. forces in the most telegraphed offensive of the war. It was well known that Fallujah was going to become a major urban battleground. The insurgents chose to heavily militarize an urban environment, and by giving civilians plenty of time and advance warning to evacuate the city, the military has every right to claim that Fallujah was an urban battleground ,but that it was not a battleground expected to contain civilians. The Army soldiers Arkin so eagerly quotes above prove that, in fact, civilian contact was rare.
Neither am I buying the State Department's line that the use of white phosphorous in this way -- that is, to possibly inflict unnecessary suffering -- is not "illegal" use. What I'm sure of is that the use of white phosphorous is not just some insensitive act. It is not just bad P.R. It is the ill thought out and panicked use of a weapon in an illegitimate way. It is a representation of a losing strategy.
Tell me, Mr. Arkin, what do you consider necessary suffering? The suffering of American soldiers, perhaps? Or perhaps better yet, can you indicate a single weapon that has not inflicted, by your definition, "unnecessary suffering."
White phosphorus used in Fallujah was not "ill thought out and panicked" as Arkin ignorantly describes, but is part of a well thought out, carefully crafted and well-practiced doctrine that has evolved over many decades of theoretical and practical use. Every credible source indicates that white phosphorous was used exactly in the ways U.S. military doctrine stipulates during the battle of Fallujah.
There is indeed bad PR being spread, but it is Mr. Arkin and his ilk spreading it.
Other posts on the White Phosphorus crockumentary:
Popham, Meet Sites
Ablution Exclusive: Weapons Expert Challenges White Phosphorus Claims
Crow. The Other White Meat
Be Careful What You Wish For
Rai's White Phosphorus Fraud
The WP Controversy
Yet More WP
Update: Jeff Goldstein joins the fray as well.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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If you are a leftist, you can ignore any fact that gets in the way of a higher truth.
Posted by: shoprat at November 15, 2005 06:34 PM (BewsC)
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I like white phosphorus, napalm, gas bombs, daisy cutters, nuclear subs and stuff such as that. Our enemies need to remember that we can blow them to smithereens much worse on all levels than any of their murder bombers. That is what this columnist misses completely, that we are at a war, not a party.
Posted by: Southern(USA)whiteboy at November 15, 2005 07:11 PM (9oivZ)
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Damn straight! We are at a war we created to overthrow a country which was doing absolutely nothing wrong at the time. The UN disagreed - oh, remember how the US criticises other countries who carry out an act w/o UN approval?
Anyhow, we, the GD US of A own this unholy earth and by God we have the right to bomb, incinerate and fornicate against any country that pisses our GOP off. Because God is on our side - same God we don't allow in our schools and government?
These colors don't run - they kill!
Posted by: Jim Bob Moneybags at November 15, 2005 08:50 PM (JW/T0)
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Honestly, I read this and just gave a yell. I can't believe they're pushing this slime in our own newspapers! Al Jazeera, yes, Daily Kos, yes, THE WASHINGTON POST? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
And then you read the comments...
Posted by: Cutler at November 15, 2005 08:55 PM (5f4Yy)
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A few things:
the state department has a long and glorious history of misstating defense department matters. That is why I called this quote in the documentary into question in my debunking of the fakeumentary at:
www.confederateyankee.mu.nu
I do not believe they do this on purpose, but because most of the "statees" have no military background.
The other point, the fakeumentary shows (whether from fallujah or not) scenes of illumination rounds falling under parachutes (harmless) and WP for smoke being deployed in an airburst that is not over any type of structure. This is to screen movement. Why smoke at night? Night Vision technology is becoming cheaper and it is very plausible that the enemy had them. And they have surely gotten NVGs off the battlefield. Don't confuse this with thearmal imaging which can see through smoke. Also, good binoculars can be used to improve night vision, as I found out during Desert Storm. And WP smoke can be put on the enemy to confuse and scare them, it has very low probability of a kill. They had much better weapons to kill with then WP.
There is no mysterious chemical cloud that burns!!!! Burns occur from contact with the flame. The smoke is harmless. If you set up a laboratory experiment, you could possibly set up the conditions to kill with WP smoke, but there is near zero probability in practical use.
The cloths would burn. Soldiers would have MOPP gear. Good enough talking points?
Posted by: Ray Robison at November 15, 2005 10:50 PM (4joLu)
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Pathophysiology: White phosphorus results in painful chemical burn injuries. The resultant burn typically appears as a necrotic area with a yellowish color and characteristic garliclike odor. White phosphorus is highly lipid soluble and as such, is believed to have rapid dermal penetration once particles are embedded under the skin. Because of its enhanced lipid solubility, many have believed that these injuries result in delayed wound healing. This has not been well studied; therefore, all that can be stated is that white phosphorus burns represent a small subsegment of chemical burns, all of which typically result in delayed wound healing.
Few studies have investigated the degree of tissue destruction associated with white phosphorus injuries. In the experimental animal model, most tissue destruction appears to be secondary to the heat generated by oxidation.
Systemic toxicity has been described extensively in the animal model. Pathologic changes have been documented in the liver and kidney. These changes result in the development of progressive anuria, decreased creatinine clearance, and increased blood phosphorus levels. Depression of serum calcium with an elevation in the serum phosphorus level (reversed calcium-phosphorus ratio) with electrocardiographic changes including prolongation of the QT segment, ST segment depression, T wave changes, and bradycardia also have been observed. Oral ingestion of white phosphorus in humans has been demonstrated to result in pathologic changes to the liver and kidneys. The accepted lethal dose is 1 mg/kg, although the ingestion of as little as 15 mg has resulted in death. Individuals with a history of oral ingestion have been noted to pass phosphorus-laden stool ("smoking stool syndrome").
Posted by: Dr White at November 16, 2005 08:34 AM (JW/T0)
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"...Phosphorus burns on the skin are deep and painful; a firm eschar is produced and is surrounded by vesiculation. The burns usually are multiple, deep, and variable in size. The solid in the eye produces severe injury. The particles continue to burn unless deprived of atmospheric oxygen. Contact with these particles can cause local burns. These weapons are particularly nasty because white phosphorus continues to burn until it disappears. If service members are hit by pieces of white phosphorus, it could burn right down to the bone. Burns usually are limited to areas of exposed skin (upper extremities, face). Burns frequently are second and third degree because of the rapid ignition and highly lipophilic properties of white phosphorus.
If burning particles of WP strike and stick to the clothing, take off the contaminated clothing quickly before the WP burns through to the skin. Remove quickly all clothing affected by phosphorus to prevent phosphorus burning through to skin..."
Accordingly, the fact that exposed areas of the bodies skin (face and hands) are burned but the clothes are (at least partially) intact seems to be consistent with massive use WP burning in air with many left burning particles hitting the ground at a later time. The combined effects of this burning powder and of the highly hygroscopic and corrosive oxide dust[8] could indeed be the cause of the injuries on the bodies reported on 9 November by RAI.
Posted by: Dr White at November 16, 2005 08:41 AM (JW/T0)
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Any tool that causes the most casualties to the enemy with the least danger to our troops is the tool for the job.
No one bitched when we dropped 15,000 pound fuel bunkerbusters on Tora Bora.
"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
George S. Patton
Hooah!
Phantom Driver
Proud father of an American Soldier
Posted by: Phantom Driver at November 16, 2005 11:01 AM (gLr9P)
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Yo Phantom,
The US wasn't forced into war - you started it - unprovoked claiming the enemy had weapons of mass destructions. Yet, they didn't and although you claim to be the loving democracy your army has no problem using weapons of mass destruction. If Iraq used WP agains't the American army then the US would say, "Smoking gun", see they are bad and deserve to die.
Glad you are proud of your son - you should be. Yet, maybe you should start questioning the government that runs your country and armies.
Posted by: Exposed Driver at November 16, 2005 11:27 AM (nXTeA)
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Dr White-
You provide evidence to make your case...but the context and knowledge of the U.S. military application is important.
"Systemic toxicity has been described extensively in the animal model." This paragraph refers to the ingestion of WP as evidenced by “Oral ingestion of white phosphorus in humans has been demonstrated to result in pathologic changes to the liver and kidneys.” While this is certainly possible that it occurred on the battlefield, there is no evidence presented in the documentary. There are no toxicology reports from legitimate sources (that I am aware of) to make the case that this happened to any civilian, much less on the scale stated by the fakeumentary. The video itself shows WP being deployed in open empty terrain, evidence to the contrary of what the fakeumentary claims.
Also, the U.S. Army M825 uses WP embedded felt wedges. The specific purpose of this embedding is to keep the chemical contained to the wedge vs. being dispersed into the air in a mist. Granted some would come off, but very little and I would argue not enough to create the conditions you cite other than the presence of epidermal burning and worse case subcutaneous, but not ingested in quantities indicated for lethal dose and certainly not enough to form a corrosive cloud.
Also you state:
“the fact that exposed areas of the bodies skin (face and hands) are burned but the clothes are (at least partially) intact seems to be consistent with massive use WP burning in air with many left burning particles hitting the ground at a later time.”
I think this is directly at odds with your reference: pathophysiology.
“If burning particles of WP strike and stick to the clothing, take off the contaminated clothing quickly before the WP burns through to the skin.”
I also think it is at odds with your reference again:
“In the experimental animal model, most tissue destruction appears to be secondary to the heat generated by oxidation.”
This means oxidation causes the injury. Oxidation is a fancy word for fire, not chemical corrosion.
I also conclude that you indicate this would require massive amounts of WP in the air to burn. There is zero indication that this occurred in Fallujah as the evidence is provided in this fakeumentary. Or can you rule out that the bodies that appear burned are possibly due to exposure, explosions, or non WP related fire? If so, I would like to hear it. thanks
Posted by: Robison at November 16, 2005 11:54 AM (CdK5b)
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Exposed Driver,
Saddamm Hussein used WMDs at least
eleven times that we are aware of. 1.8 tons of low-enriched uranium and roghly other 1000 radiological elements were captured after the fall of Baghdad, and are now in safekeeping in the United States. IEDs containing Sarin and Mustard gas were used against U.S. forces in May, 2004.
There was ZERO question that Saddam Hussein's Iraq had WMDs and had used them; the question was, and still is, "what happened to the WMDs Saddam
declared he had at the end of the 1991 Gulf War?"
Iraq was home ot four known terrorist organizations, and Baghdad was home to Abu Nidal and Abu Abbas, perhaps the two most famous terrorists in the world prior to Osama bin Laden, and Abdul Rahman Yasin, the bomb-builder in the 1993 World Trade Center attack, was also a guest of Saddam Hussein.
White phosphorus is a conventional weapon that is, to the best of my knowledge, issued and used by every member of NATO.
Your ignorance of what WP is doesn't make it a chemical weapon.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 16, 2005 11:55 AM (g5Nba)
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Yet, they didn't and although you claim to be the loving democracy your army has no problem using weapons of mass destruction
Wow, Exposed Idiot you have no idea what you are talking about. Here's a clue: when the exalted U.N. Weapons Inspectors were looking for WMDs, WP wasn't on their list.
Posted by: Jordan at November 16, 2005 08:12 PM (xEXsr)
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To Jordan - . . .and prior to 9/11 an airplane was just a source of travel.
To Yankee - the 1.8 tons of uranium and radiological elements captured by the US were being used by Iraq for what?
To Yankee - The IEDs you mentioned - I believe plural was wrong and singular IED was right. Certainly a remnant or two from the past hardly supports a claim that Iraq is a threat to the US by stockpiling WMDs.
To Yankee - There absolutely is NO question that Sadam HAD WMD. Hum, were did he get the weapons?, hum, I think I remember reading the ole USA. Good job guys!!! Guess it was okay back then to use them against Iran, but lordy don't use them against the US.
To Yankee - Lastly, the US is home to alot of bad people too. Maybe China should attack the US?
Hey, odd that no one denied "The US wasn't forced into war - you started it"
Posted by: Exposed Driver at November 17, 2005 11:43 AM (M7BWM)
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Exposed, you remember wrong. The US did not supply Iraq with WMD.
Posted by: Lugo at November 17, 2005 01:21 PM (aklAt)
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Ah, you so wrong Lugo.
"Even before Iraq released its weapons-program dossier on 7 December 2002, it was said that the report would name the corporations that supplied Iraq with the equipment and other material it needed to develop biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons. Soon after the report was released, those suspicions were confirmed. Sources who had seen the report said that it identified suppliers from the US, UK, Germany, France, China, and elsewhere."
See - http://www.thememoryhole.org/corp/iraq-suppliers.htm
or - http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,861902,00.html
Posted by: Exposed Driver at November 17, 2005 02:58 PM (M7BWM)
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And what, praytell, did Americans provide, ED?
Sarin? Flamethrowers? Gas chambers from Sears?
I'm just
dying to find out.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 17, 2005 05:38 PM (0fZB6)
17
To Jordan - . . .and prior to 9/11 an airplane was just a source of travel.
What are you babbling about? WP has
never been classified as a WMD.
Posted by: Jordan at November 18, 2005 02:25 AM (pLJN7)
18
Did I miss something? Did you really just quote a report from Iraq, Saddam Hussein, to implicate the U.S.. Please guys, tell me I didn't just see that. I am too depressed by that. I'm going home.
Posted by: Ray Robison at November 18, 2005 10:50 PM (4joLu)
19
exposed , you are wrong in your assumption that U.S started the war.
The 1991 Gulf War started with the Iraqi army invading Kuwait and ended in a ceasefire agreement between the Coalition forces and Iraq, the terms of which Saddam's goverment repeatedly broke; after 14 or so innefective UN resolutions and 9/11 President Bush's new foreign policy was basically 'no more screwing around', fair enough imo.
Saddam continued to screw around. The UN continued to screw around. The MSM continues to screw around!!
So, who started it? yah, twas Saddam Hussein...
ho hum
Posted by: majah at November 21, 2005 05:47 AM (h2Hcc)
20
You people think I am crazy for calling WP a chemical weapon - Well, your own damn leaders think it is!!! Americans are soooo freaken dumb and arrogant!
File: 950901_22431050_91r.txt
Page: 91r
Total Pages: 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IIR 2 243 1050 91/POSSIBLE USE OF PHOSPHOROUS CHEMICAL
Filename:22431050.91r
PATHFINDER RECORD NUMBER: 16134
GENDATE: 950504
NNNN
TEXT:
ENVELOPE CDSN = LGX854 MCN = 91107/02896 TOR = 911070142
RTTCZYUW RUEKJCS0771 1070142-CCCC--RUEALGX.
ZNY CCCCC
HEADER R 170142Z APR 91
FM JOINT STAFF WASHINGTON DC
INFO RUENAAA/CNO WASHINGTON DC
RUEAHQA/CSAF WASHINGTON DC
RUEACMC/CMC WASHINGTON DC
RUEKCCG/USDP-CCC WASHINGTON DC
RUEAIIA/CIA WASHINGTON DC
RUEALGX/SAFE
R 160504Z APR 91
FM CDR500THMIBDE CP ZAMA JA//IAGPD-OP-CM//
TO AIG 9149
RUCJACC/USCINCCENT MACDILL AFB FL//J2//
RUSNNOA/USCINCEUR VAIHINGEN GE
RUEDBIA/CDR513THMIBDE FT MONMOUTH NJ
RUAGAAA/CDR501STMIBDE SEOUL KOR//IABDK-PH//
RUAGAAA/CDR524THMIBN SEOUL KOR//IABDK-CX-PC//
RUAJMAB/FOSIF WESTPAC KAMI SEYA JA//CSG//
RUEOADA/9TIS SHAW AFB SC//INO//
RUEHAK/USDAO ANKARA TU
BT
CONTROLS
SECTION 001 OF 002
SERIAL: (U) IIR 2 243 1050 91
/*********** THIS IS A COMBINED MESSAGE ************/
BODY PASS: (U) DIA FOR ITF/JIC/OICC/; DA FOR DAMI-FII-E
COUNTRY: (U) IRAQ (IZ); TURKEY (TU); IRAN (IR).
SUBJ: IIR 2 243 1050 91/POSSIBLE USE OF PHOSPHOROUS CHEMICAL
WEAPONS BY IRAQ IN KURDISH AREAS ALONG THE IRAQI-TURKISH-IRANIAN
BORDERS; AND CURRENT SITUATION OF KURDISH RESISTANCE AND REFUGEES
(U)
WARNING: (U) THIS IS AN INFORMATION REPORT, NOT FINALLY EVALUATED
INTELLIGENCE. REPORT CLASSIFIED
---------------------------------------------------------------------
DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE
---------------------------------------------------------------------
DOI: (U) 910300.
REQS: (U) T-8C2-2650-01-90.
SOURCE: [ (b)(1) sec 1.3(a)(4) ][ (b)(7)(D) ]
SUMMARY: IRAQ HAS POSSIBLY EMPLOYED PHOSPHOROUS
CHEMICAL
WEAPONS AGAINST THE KURDISH POPULATION IN AREAS ALONG THE
IRAQI-TURKISH-IRANIAN BORDERS. KURDISH RESISTANCE IS LOSING ITS
STRUGGLE AGAINST SADDAM HUSSEIN'S FORCES. KURDISH REBELS AND
REFUGEES' PERSONAL OBSERVATIONS AND PERCEPTIONS ARE PROVIDED.
TEXT: 1. DURING APRIL 1991, THE SOURCE TELEPHONED
BROTHER (SUBSOURCE) [ (b)(1) sec 1.3(a)(4) ][ (b)(7)(D) ]
. DURING THIS PHONE CONVERSATION,
THE SOURCE WAS ABLE TO OBTAIN THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION ON THE
PRESENT SITUATION IN KURDISH AREAS ALONG THE IRAQI-TURKISH-IRANIAN
BORDERS --
A. IRAQ'S POSSIBLE EMPLOYMENT OF PHOSPHOROUS CHEMICAL
WEAPONS -- IN LATE FEBRUARY 1991, FOLLOWING THE COALITION FORCES'
OVERWHELMING VICTORY OVER IRAQ, KURDISH REBELS STEPPED UP THEIR
STRUGGLE AGAINST IRAQI FORCES IN NORTHERN IRAQ. DURING THE BRUTAL
CRACKDOWN THAT FOLLOWED THE KURDISH UPRISING, IRAQI FORCES LOYAL
TO
PRESIDENT SADDAM ((HUSSEIN)) MAY HAVE POSSIBLY USED WHITE
PHOSPHOROUS (WP) CHEMICAL WEAPONS AGAINST KURDISH REBELS AND THE
POPULACE IN ERBIL (GEOCOORD:3412N/04401E) (VICINITY OF IRANIAN
BORDER) AND DOHUK (GEOCOORD:3652N/04301E) (VICINITY OF IRAQI
BORDER) PROVINCES, IRAQ. THE WP CHEMICAL WAS DELIVERED BY
ARTILLERY ROUNDS AND HELICOPTER GUNSHIPS (NO FURTHER INFORMATION
AT
THIS TIME). APPARENTLY, THIS TIME IRAQ DID NOT USE NERVE GAS AS
THEY DID IN 1988, IN HALABJA (GEOCOORD:3511N/04559E), IRAQ,
BECAUSE
THEY WERE AFRAID OF POSSIBLE RETALIATION FROM THE UNITED STATES
(U.S.) LED COALITION. THESE REPORTS OF POSSIBLE WP CHEMICAL WEAPON
ATTACKS SPREAD QUICKLY AMONG THE KURDISH POPULACE IN ERBIL AND
DOHUK. AS A RESULT, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF KURDS FLED FROM THESE
TWO AREAS AND CROSSED THE IRAQI BORDER INTO TURKEY. IN RESPONSE TO
THIS, TURKISH AUTHORITIES ESTABLISHED SEVERAL REFUGEE CENTERS
ALONG
THE TURKISH-IRAQI BORDER. THE SITUATION OF KURDISH REFUGEES IN
THESE CENTERS IS DESPERATE -- THEY HAVE NO SHELTERS, FOOD, WATER,
AND MEDICAL FACILITIES (NO FURTHER INFORMATION AT THIS TIME).
B. IRAQI GOVERNMENT ULTIMATUM TO KURDS REBELS AND
REFUGEES -- ON OR AROUND 2 APRIL 1991, RADIO BAGHDAD ISSUED AN
ULTIMATUM TO THE KURDISH REBELS AND REFUGEES WHO FLED IRAQ AND
SETTLED IN REFUGEE CENTERS IN TURKEY. IN THE BROADCAST, IRAQI
AUTHORITIES WARNED THE KURDS THEY HAD 10 DAYS TO RETURN TO THEIR
TOWNS AND VILLAGES, OR ELSE FACE COMPLETE ANNIHILATION. THE IRAQI
BROADCAST ALSO PROMISED THE KURDS THAT NO RETALIATORY ACTION WOULD
BE TAKEN AGAINST THEM IF THEY WOULD COMPLY WITH THIS ORDER (NO
FURTHER INFORMATION AT THIS TIME).
C. KURDISH REBELS ARE LOSING IN THEIR STRUGGLE AGAINST
SADDAM HUSSEIN'S FORCES -- KURDISH REBELS WHO WERE FIGHTING IN
NORTHERN IRAQ WERE FORCED TO WITHDRAW INTO TURKEY BY TROOPS LOYAL
TO SADDAM HUSSEIN. POOR ORGANIZATIONAL LEADERSHIP AND LACK OF
HEAVY WEAPONS, AMMUNITION, AND SUPPLIES ARE THE PRIMARY CAUSES OF
KURDISH LATEST DOWNFALL. THE ONLY GROUP CURRENTLY FIGHTING SADDAM
HUSSEIN'S FORCES IN NORTHERN IRAQ IS THE "PESHMERGEH" (FRONT
WARRIORS). HOWEVER, THIS GROUP IS ARMED ONLY WITH SMALL ARMS SUCH
AS M-60 MACHINE-GUNS, AK-47 RIFLES AND UNKNOWN TYPES OF PISTOLS
AND
REVOLVERS.
D. KURDISH REBELS' EXPECTATION OF RECEIVING HELP FROM
U.S. LED COALITION FORCE -- THE KURDISH RESISTANCE'S DECISION TO
RISE UP AND FIGHT HUSSEIN'S FORCES WAS TRIGGERED BY THE
OVERWHELMING MILITARY POWER DISPLAYED BY THE COALITION DURING
"DESERT STORM" AND THE PROPAGANDA BROADCASTS OF VOICE OF AMERICA.
KURDISH REBELS AND REFUGEES REALLY BELIEVED THAT EVENTUALLY THE
COALITION FORCE WOULD COME TO HELP THEM IN THEIR FIGHTING AGAINST
IRAQI FORCES. AFTER LEARNING OF U.S. PRESIDENT BUSH'S "STAY OUT OF
IRAQ INTERNAL AFFAIRS" POLICY, KURDISH REBELS AND REFUGEES FELT AS
THEY WERE SET UP AND LET DOWN BY THE COALITION FORCE (NO FURTHER
INFORMATION AT THIS TIME).
E. SADDAM HUSSEIN'S REASON NOT TO USE CHEMICAL WEAPONS
AGAINST THE U.S. LED COALITION FORCE DURING "DESERT STORM" -- THE
GENERAL PERCEPTION AMONG THE KURDS IS THAT PRESIDENT HUSSEIN DID
NOT USE CHEMICAL WEAPONS AGAINST THE COALITION BECAUSE HE WAS
AFRAID THAT ALLIES WOULD RETALIATE BY USING BATTLEFIELD NUCLEAR
WEAPONS (NO FURTHER INFORMATION AT THIS TIME).
COMMENTS: 1. (SOURCE COMMENT) - IRAQ USED WP IN ERBIL
AND DOHUK BECAUSE THEY WANTED THE KURDS TO PANIC AND FLEE FROM THE
AREA.
2. [ (b)(1) sec 1.3(a)(4) ][ (b)(7)(D) ]
3. (SOURCE COMMENT) - MOST OF THE SMUGGLING OF REFUGEES
ALONG THE IRAQI-TURKISH-IRANIAN BORDERS OCCURRED AT NIGHT.
4. (FIELD COMMENT) - ACCORDING TO THE TIMES' WORLD
ATLAS, THE TWO IRAQI PROVINCES ERBIL AND DOHUK ARE ALSO CALLED
ARBIL AND DIHOK RESPECTIVELY.
//IPSP: (U) PGW 2650//.
//COMSOBJ: (U) 211//.
ADMIN PROJ: (U) 252132.
INSTR: (U) US NO.
PREP: (U) 500TH MI BDE.
ACQ: (U) TOKYO, JAPAN (910409).
DISSEM: (U) FIELD: NONE.
WARNING: (U) REPORT CLASSIFIED
Posted by: Exposed Driver at November 23, 2005 01:18 PM (M7BWM)
21
E.D., you are so far behind the mental curve on this I can't even see your headlights. This was completely debunked before breakfast yesterday:
http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/134779.php
Think Progress has already been throughly humiliated over this, as their "secret Pentagon evidence" is nothing more than the transripts of a phone call between two Kurdish brothers.
Apparently critical reading is not one of those skills you picked up at cut 'n paste school.
James Bond you ain't.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 23, 2005 01:33 PM (g5Nba)
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November 14, 2005
Senator Traitor?
h/t
The Anchoress:
Senator Jay Rockefeller's alledged meetings with representatives of enemy states in advance of the Iraq War, if true, should lead to an investigation under the Logan Act.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:35 PM
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Post contains 34 words, total size 1 kb.
1
Not a chance. Lying, treasonous Democrats get elected President.
Posted by: olddawg at November 15, 2005 09:43 AM (7nc0l)
2
Oh I know! I heard about this on Hannity's radio show. Good gracious! What the heck was he thinking?
Posted by: Alabama Improper at November 15, 2005 11:26 PM (c6KJC)
3
I want to know when the so-called Conservative leaders are going to start showing some backbone. THEY are responsible for destroying this country, because THEY are the ones who are allowing this travesty. They are allowing the Liberal Media and the Liberal idiots in Congress to get away with this!
Posted by: Litl Bits at November 17, 2005 03:21 PM (8Dyit)
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November 13, 2005
Too Far
The Central Intelligence Agency isn't perfect, but to suggest there is
no difference between CIA and al Qaeda personnel is far over the line, even for the traitorous cesspool that is the
Democratic Underground.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:31 PM
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Post contains 38 words, total size 1 kb.
1
Well, ain't that nice. Sheez.
Blogrollin' ya at my place. Great place, and love the name.
Posted by: Alabama at November 14, 2005 02:23 AM (c6KJC)
2
Hey Yank,
I have an important question, where the hell was Karl Rove this past weekend? First on Friday, Bush gives a speech calling those who disagree with his war policy "deeply irresponsible." Somebody should have reminded him that 57% of Americans now disagree with his war policy. Do you think it is a good idea to use a day reserved for the solemn remembrance of our war veterans to call 57% of Americans deeply irresponsible? I think not. What do you think?
And then on Saturday Bush allows himself to be photographed on those cycling tights. It's one of the foremost truisms of American politics that Americans do not want to see their president wearing tights. It may have been OK for him to wear tights when he was cheerleading at Yale, but he's the leader of the free world now! Even among you lustful republicans who seem head over heels for the guy, you must agree that some things are best left to the imagination. C'mon, George, No More Tights!!
Cheney's approval rating is now down to 19%. Maybe Bush should lend Cheney the tights, after all how much worse could it get? Cheney's at an approval level we havn't seen since the halcyon days of Spiro Agnew, the tights might get him back at least in to the 20%+ range.
And did you hear that one fo Tom Delays staffers called right wing Christian conservatives "whackos?" Almost makes me want to give Delay some cash for his defense!
Just thought I would share some of todays good news!
Posted by: phil at November 14, 2005 05:12 PM (pouEy)
3
Phil, thank you for proving yourself as exactly the kind of person Bush was really addressing Freiday: someone who rewrites history. He did not call those who disagree with his war policy deeply irresponsible, and in fact, he said people had a right to disagree with his war policy. He said those who LIED and tried to rewrite history were irresponsible, and they are.
In that vein, consider yourself on probation. Lie again, and you're gone for good.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 14, 2005 05:30 PM (g5Nba)
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Rai's White Phosphorus Fraud
Rai News24, an offshoot of communist-dominated channel Rai 3, recently released a film titled
Fallujah: The Hidden Massacre accusing the United States military of using chemical weapons against civilians in the 2004 battle of Fallujah in Iraq. Immediately, and without question in most instances, left of center media outlets and political blogs trumpeted the "fact" that white phosphorus was used to create deadly clouds of poison gas, killing unknown scores of Iraqi civilans as they slept in their beds.
But who are the documentary's experts, and can they be trusted?
The Documentary "Experts"
Noted anti-American communist and serial fabricator Guiliana Sgrena was one "expert" who came armed with her opinion, but without any actual evidence. In the film she explains that the terrorists who took her hostage for several months did not want videotaped evidence of U.S. attrocities to leak out.
Jeff Englehardt, a former soldiers and left-wing poltical blogger has been roundly debunked for his erroneous claims about the physical properties of white phosphorus, has now apparently retracted his claims, while claiming that the Rai film team (that let him go on at length) misquoted him.
Another "expert witness" journalist mentioned in the video is actually Mark Manning a retired deep sea diver (not Mark Manning, the acid-tripping lead singer of Zodiac Mindwarp and The Love Reaction), who coincidentally, has his videotapes of alledged atrocities conveniently stolen before another living soul could view them, apparently by a cash rich street bum with ties to George W. Bush himself.
Even the U.S. helicopter video that the documentary presents as evidence of U.S. brutality has been exposed as fraudulently edited footage taken from another battle entirely.
One might begin to question the credibility of Rai's experts...
A Real Expert Speaks
But some experts are rather difficult to refute, and former U.S. Captain Robison (full name and current employment have been witheld for security reasons), a Confederate Yankee reader, is such an expert.
Captain Robison has over ten years of military service as an officer and enlisted soldier in the Medical Branch, Field Artillery and Signal Corp including the Gulf War and Kosovo operations. Most recently he worked as a contractor for DIA with the Iraqi Survey Group.
He had this to say:
I am a former fire support officer, who was trained to travel with infantry and armor units and be the eyes of the artillery to call for fire.
I read the article from the Italian news source, and let me state unequivocally that what it claims is physically impossible. A white phosphorous round used for illumination is a base ejecting projectile that "opens" in the air and floats down under a parachute. The projectile casing does continue down range, but fire direction officers and fire support officers along with the maneuver commanders clear this impact area as part of the calculations. The projectile casing itself could kill a person, as any bullet would, but it is not possible to use it as a chemical warfare attack.
The flare itself floats down and you would pretty much have to chase after it and position yourself under where you project it will land to even get burned. It is possible although very unlikely that this flare could hit a building and could cause a fire, but the injury wouldn't be a chemical burn, but a burn from the building fire. I have never seen anything close to this happen.
The flares come down slowly and usually burn out first, but since they are the brightest thing in the sky, it would be easy to avoid one if it landed while burning. I have seen a few flares land on the ground while burning, but this is much different than a chemical attack.
The only way you could purposely harm anyone with this is if you direct fired at a short range. The projectile most likely wouldn't eject the flare (it has a timed fuse) and it really wouldn't matter if you fired Cheetohs at someone at that range, the concussion would kill them.
An artillery unit wouldn't use direct fire unless it was being attacked. And even then it would use their organic direct fire weapons and if necessary, another type of projectile. To use a WP for direct fire would be entirely counterproductive to the security of the battery even in self defense.
This Italian news story is nothing but a lie.
I hasten to add that Captain Robison is a perhaps the single most qualified person to examine this documentary so far.
He graduated with a B.S. Biology (pre-medicine) from the University of Tampa, and has graduted the U.S. Army Field Artillery Officer Basic Course, Signal Officer Adanced Course, Combined Arms and Services Staff School, and Airborne and Air Assault.
Further, in addition to his outstanding artillery and medical background, he is also a video expert, contracted under DIA to provide analysis of captured Saddam regime video, documentation, audio, and computer media. Later, his team analyzed captured insurgent media, and analyzed thousands of videos to determine intelligence value. His team provided support that assisted in the capture of Saddam Hussein and later provided intelligence of insurgent activities.
He had this to say in specific about the video itself:
I analyzed the video and am pleased to announce that it is junk. There are many things I could point out, but here is what sticks out.
- The “fire raining down from the helicopter” was the part that concerned me...
Contrary to the documentary claim that hellicopters were shooting fire, there are no helicopters in that video segment. There is a split second airbust and if you freeze the picture at the right instant, the airburst lights up the sky. There are no helicopters present. This proves a false claim by the documentary creators in what may be the most significant portion of the video...
...I had to watch it repeatedly to figure it out. At first I thought it was the backblast from a missile being fired the other direction. After a more thorough analysis, I realize it was an air burst of WP artillery rounds. Those are basically small rags that looked like balls of fire. This is because it is night and it is hard to get perspective at night, with or without night vision equipment. Taken out of context, it is easy to make it look like fire raining down on the city. The rag would certainly burn, but it would be like a cigarette and you would just need to brush it off, maybe take off clothes, and get away from it.
- The voice over states "contrary to the claim by the state department that WP was used in open fields, this was not true because tracer rounds were used to illuminate the enemy" Nothing could have spelled out liar any bigger than that one statement. Tracy rounds are never used to illuminate the enemy. The glow from a tracer round lasts tenths of a second and travels hundreds of miles an hour; it could not possibly be used for this function, again a claim that defies all practicality. Tracer rounds are used to see where your bullets are going so your fire can be adjusted, flat out. And quoting the State Department about a military function?
- The pictures of dead bodies while hideous provide no analytical value. Contrast the opening from Vietnam, with the burned little girl, running from a napalmed village. That is conclusive evidence. Nothing about these dead bodies looked any different to the many dead bodies I have seen analyzing other videos (of dead bodies) that were all made that way (dead) by Saddam's regime and then by Jihadists. There is no way to determine what killed these people by looking at pictures, except maybe by a forensics expert.
The soldiers in the video , however were a bit more complicated for the fomer Captain:
I find the taller guy, I think his name was Garret, credible. His story rang true and is tragically repeated. [Note: his story was about a civilian car traveling at soldiers at a high rate of speed, and the soldiers firing on the vehicle. --ed.] But this is not a war crime or a chemical attack, but bad target identification and a complete human tragedy, assuming the "civilians" were indeed non combatants, it is very hard for the soldiers to tell. Although I do question his motives that is irrelevant to this analysis since he provides no “evidence” of chemical weapons.
The other guy Jeff was a liar, to the point I would need to see his orders to believe he was in Iraq. He states, (paraphrasing) "the orders unequivocally came from the pentagon to wait until after the election".
How does he know this? Was he CENTCOM commander at the time? Did the CENTCOM commander call him up and tell him that? Even if it was true, that fact in itself is not nefarious.
The re-election of Bush would be a crushing blow to the Jihadists in Fallujah, and let me tell you, I have seen their own videos recovered from there and the place was crawling with them. It would make tactical sense to wait, if you were pretty confident that Bush would win. They call this tactical patience.
Also, the timing of the attack was heavily influenced by the Iraqi Provisional Authority. The U.S. had just helped them form and wanted to get them involved with running their country as soon as possible. That is why the first battle of Fallujah was ended, because the new Iraqi government wanted more time to talk with the Jihadists. That is until the new Iraqi government officials figured out that they were now the primary target of the Jihadists and told the U.S. effectively, go get them (the Jihadists in Fallujah) as soon as you can.
Jeff states (paraphrasing), that the U.S. was using chemical weapons because we used WP.
Hogwash.
Furthermore about Jeff Englehardt (and for the record, I noticed this too):
He states (paraphrasing) when they used the stuff (WP) they would come over the net and say the WP is coming or "commence bombing" or something.
Commence bombing? Who was on the net giving this sitrep, Clark Gable? That's about the last time anybody used this term. This guy is a clown.
But for Captain Robison, perhaps the most damning evidence of fraud comes from contradictions in the very video itself:
The real tip off about the credibility of this “news story” is the pictures of dead animals.
The voice over said, paraphrasing: that several animals were found dead with no visible sign of trauma.
First off, did they examine the animals? If so, they didn't show it. Sure something is not visible, if you don't look! Animals die everyday from natural causes, hunger, disease, or even getting hit by cars or possibly by conventional weapons.
And get this, they show people who appear burned and claim this to be a sign of a chemical weapon, then they show animals with no injuries in the context of this discussion to imply they died of a mysterious chemical weapon. Their “facts” not only fail to support each other, but they directly conflict with each other.
After reviewing all of this evidence, he states:
By introducing these “facts” in the context of a chemical weapons discussion, yet not having any supporting evidence, I can only conclude that not only are these charges false, but this was done with the documentary creator's full knowledge that they were baseless charges. In other words, they purposely lied, which goes to their credibility.
Captain Robison then floored me with this firsthand experience as he reacts to reading this story at Daily Kos, regarding Marines talking about using white phosphorus in screening missions:
The kind of projectile they are speaking about here creates smoke. It is widely, commonly, and legally used by every army to conceal their men. Usually, if an obstacle needs to be breeched, the smoke is delivered by artillery in between the obstacle and the enemy observer. It can also be placed on the enemy to confuse and scare them. The smoke itself is uncomfortable, but not dangerous, unless you want to sit on top of the projectile and breathe it. I know because I have experienced it. [my bold]
Unless someone at Daily Kos or Rai News24 can present me with convincing evidence that Captain Robison died due to his exposure and is now a zombie, then I think this "crockumentary" can now be listed as thoroughly debunked.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
02:09 AM
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Post contains 2070 words, total size 13 kb.
1
My husband is a grunt. When we heard this, I think I finally saw him get really really mad at the liberal media.
Posted by: Jo at November 13, 2005 07:51 AM (eXI8W)
2
Call those multiple stage weapons "grid killers", old soldier
Posted by: Chase at November 13, 2005 08:47 PM (QSfps)
3
If this Robison guy is so qualified, how come he doesn't know the difference between illum and WP?
Just quibbling. Overall, he's correct in my view. But WP is not an illum round. It's a marking and obscuration round. It's also used to scuttle vehicles and guns when they must be abandoned on the field of battle.
Posted by: Jason Van Steenwyk at November 13, 2005 11:23 PM (tNKqq)
4
Here's a picture of
tracer fire (time elapsed). The only thing a tracer round illuminates is the path the bullet takes, not the surroundings.
Posted by: dorkafork at November 14, 2005 02:01 AM (mI+u5)
5
I was in the US Army Infantry for 18 years and trained with 81mm and 4.2in mortars, so I know a bit about WP. There are two types of WP round- the illumination round mentioned by CPT Robison and an obscurant (smoke) round. CPT Robison dealt properly with the both rounds. The smoke round does not produce a toxic smoke, but the round is extremely dangerous when it burns. It will burn completely through just about anything, so the bodies shown would be, at best, horribly burned.
This whole thing is a put-up job by ignorant people for ignorant people.
Posted by: olddawg at November 14, 2005 10:38 AM (7nc0l)
6
Jason, that was my question as well. I'm now thoroughly confused. Are we talking about WP rounds or illumination rounds. I can't believe anyone would be objecting to the use of illumination flares. Of course, I don't understand people's objection to WP rounds either.
Posted by: Tony B at November 14, 2005 11:13 PM (mozBv)
7
Tony B,
Don't get too bogged down in the details, but just to clarify, we are talking about WP as the most common (obscurant, or smoke)loading.
WP can apparently loaded into different kinds of shells for different uses. Most are used for screening, but some weapons still seem to have WP availible as a kind of illumination round.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 14, 2005 11:26 PM (0fZB6)
8
Old Dawg,
Thank you. That cleared it up for me. I wasn't aware that there were WP illumination rounds. I wish I'd read your comment before confessing my ignorance. I feel a bit stupid about this. I'm a former artillery officer myself.
Posted by: Tony B at November 15, 2005 12:03 AM (mozBv)
9
Tony, I must admit, that was a nagging question in my mind about mag vs. wp for illum. I researched it and didn't find a source for mag so I went with what I thought. Some are supporting each opinion, but just for illum, not smoke which is the real heart of the matter. If anyone has a source for mag, please post. If necessary, insert mag for WP in the illum talk and leave WP for smoke and it still applies, thanks
Posted by: Ray Robison at November 15, 2005 12:34 AM (4joLu)
10
My father was hit with white phosphorous in Korea where it was used for anti-personnel situations by both the North Koreans and the Chinese. It was NOT used as a gas weapon, instead, it was meant to inflict burns/wounds almost like a shrapnel weapon. This kind of half-truth or outright lie posing as reporting truly makes my blood boil, especially when it is simply not challenged. Is this a nation of sheep or lemmings?
Posted by: Richard M at November 15, 2005 06:23 AM (Yb06A)
11
I'm not sure what I think about this. I believed the documentary when I saw it; now I can see a bit more clearly the propaganda behind it. Nevertheless, the government started out by denying the use of WP, and now it changed its stance to "yes, we use it, but only on combatants, and we never signed an agreement saying WP is a chemical weapon" (see CNN's story on the web).
It just seems that we are undermining ourselves by lying about what we do. I would actually be fine with the use of WP as a weapon. It's war, for crying out loud. Everyone dies a horrible death in a war, some faster than others, some more painful, but in the end if you're fighting someone to the death, there's gonna be suffering involved. If using WP makes us win the war more easily, then buy a ton or two on me. But this illusion of "civilized" conflict is just cowardly. There is nothing civilized about blowing someone's head off. We all wish it wasn't necessary, but it is. Sorry to get off on a rant, but for the love of God, stop lying about it.
Posted by: Peter Campbell at November 16, 2005 04:53 PM (dDBQG)
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This is just one more example of American double-standards:
1) WE THROW CHEMICAL WEAPONS
2) WE KIDNAP AND TORTURE PEOPLE
And the Republicans want to find who blew the whistle.
Guess what? TERRORISM IS HERE TO STAY.
THE EXTREME RIGHT-WING IN THIS COUNTRY HAS BROUGHT UPON US ENDURING DAMAGE AND ENDANGERMENT. WE HAVE BECOME NOT A BEACON AND GUARDIAN OF FREEDOM, BUT A HYPOCRYTICAL HUMAN-RIGHTS VIOLATOR.
The US used chemical weapons in Iraq - and then lied about it http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1642989,00.html
Posted by: Jason Kaynes at November 18, 2005 11:32 AM (HSNmb)
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A lot of people are claiming that WP is a chemical and a weapon therefore it is a chemical weapon. My desire is to clear up this misconception by analyzing the differences between WP as it was used in Fallujah and a chemical weapon. It is not an attempt to dehumanize the event or pass morale judgment either way. I leave that to the reader. But I think it is important for people to have easy to understand, informal analysis to make judgments.
Compare and contrast the use of WP in Fallujah to a generic chemical weapon.
A chemical weapon when deployed will retain its toxicity in vapor or liquid form for a variable length of time usually measurable in hours, depending on the agent. This is to create wide and indiscriminate dispersal.
WP oxidizes spontaneously and does not exist in a residual form when exposed to oxygen other than smoke, which is no more harmful than any smoke because it is no longer "white phosphorous" having oxidized. In addition, the military application in question uses WP embedded on felt wedges to allow a more controlled dispersion versus indiscriminate.
Chemical weapons require protective equipment and decontamination to operate in the affected area.
WP requires none after it oxidizes.
Chemical weapons attack the body in a variety of ways including inhalation and absorption through the skin to produce a toxic effect.
Though you can replicate a scenario in a controlled environment that may demonstrate this for WP, such as forced ingestion, the practical application of WP weapons causes injury by the heat generated by oxidation. The injury is localized to the exposed area and does spread through the body, but it would take massive amounts of exposure to become toxic, which is impractical to this application. It continues until the WP is removed, oxidized, or removed from oxygen. This is a burn, not a toxic reaction.
If you are in a location attacked with a chemical weapon, there is no way to avoid it without protective equipment.
Falling WP can be avoided easily with cover. The WP may cause secondary fires and associated smoke, but fire and smoke are not chemical weapons.
The lethality is what really shows the difference:
If you deployed a chemical weapon against a building containing 20 enemy soldiers, they would probably all die and any one near the building, down the street, around the cornerÂ….
If you deployed this application (base-ejecting, artillery 155mm projectile with WP embedded on 116 felt wedges with a total payload about the size of a coffee can) against a building you would have a very low probability of killing any of the soldiers. You would even have a low probability of injury, since in this scenario the enemy has cover. You may get secondary effects from fire and concentrated smoke, but this is not a chemical attack.
Chemical weapons have one function: kill everything in the affected area.
WP has other functionality such as obscuration, incendiary, and marking a target.
Posted by: Ray Robison at November 18, 2005 11:37 AM (CdK5b)
Posted by: hiya at November 18, 2005 12:03 PM (g5Nba)
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liberals not stupid. chickenhawks stupid. read on, chickenhawks.
phosphorus is a chemical.
chemicals are packed into shell casings.
casings are 1) launched, 2) dropped, 3) shot out of guns.
sometimes these casings have parachutes attached to them.
sometimes not.
using soft wadding, many chemicals can be shot out of guns into buildings containing civilians or freedom fighters or pink elephants and when the chemical gets on the (all the above) they burn as.if.they.were.attacked.with.a.chemical.weapon.
when i was in the service, we called it cbw (chemical biological warfare), or cnbw if you want to go nuclear.
chickenhawks can call it whatever they want, it's a free country, but a chemical is a chemical and burnt people are still crispy critters. see
these pictures here. warning: not pretty.
Posted by: fazzaz31 at November 21, 2005 10:41 PM (TmEkj)
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fazzaz31,
so your logic is:
WP is a chemical
a chemical can be used on people
your experience in the service indicates WP is a chemical weapon
Bad logic, bad reasoning, bad conclusions, bad data on your experience. In my over ten years of U.S. army training on the application of and how to react to chemical weapons, WP was never even mentioned. I defy you to find a US army training manual that deals with chemical weapons that even mentions it. I am waiting, blameocrat....
Posted by: Ray Robison at November 22, 2005 04:41 PM (CdK5b)
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November 11, 2005
Yippie-Ki-Yay...
Via
The Corner:
It's about these guys.
It's about these guys who do what they are asked to do for very little money to defend and fight for what they consider to be freedom.
And it's not just for this country. It's for the world. It is time for terrorism to stop. And the United States is the country that can stop it. And that's what they're doing over there."
That was actor Bruce Willis, talking about Duece Four LTC Erik Krillia's unit if you read Michael Yon as you should, before offering one million dollars of his own money for the heads of Osama Bin Laden, Ayman al Zawahri, or Abu Musab al Zarqawi.
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http://managedmusic.com/beforeyougo.html
Posted by: NtvAmrcn at November 11, 2005 04:40 PM (l3B4F)
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When I was a liberal, I felt guilty that I liked Bruce Willis -- and got a lot of grief from my peers for admitting to that liking. Now, I'm congratulating myself on having the good sense to have liked him even before I figured out that he was in the right space politically.
Posted by: Bookworm at November 12, 2005 11:59 PM (3U9Nd)
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November 10, 2005
Be Careful What You Wish For
Diarist Steven D at Daily Kos, citing the Altercation peice without bothering to put his brain in gear, parroted the same argument, cuasing a gleeful kos to
make the challenge:
Let's see them deny this shit now -- kos
Bad move, cupcake.
In a post titled "US Army Admits Use of White Phosphorus as Weapon," Steven D starts off with the following claim:
That's right. Not from Al Jazheera [sic], or Al Arabiya, but the US fucking Army, in their very own publication, from the (WARNING: pdf file) March edition of Field Artillery Magazine in an article entitled "The Fight for Fallujah":
"WP [i.e., white phosphorus rounds] proved to be an effective and versatile munition. We used it for screening missions at two breeches and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with HE. We fired 'shake and bake' missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out."
In other words the claim by the US Government that White Phosphorus was used only for illumination at Fallujah had been pre-emptively debunked by the Army. Indeed, the article goes on to make clear that soldiers would have liked to have saved more WP rounds to use for "lethal missions."
Steve D seems to have an issue meshing reading comprehension with tactical knowledge, as exposed by the paragraph that he cites as "proof" of chemical weapons attacks.
A primary use of white phosphorous is indeed creating smoke screens. But Steve D somehow manage to transmutate the use of white phosphorous as a "potent psychological weapon" into that of a chemical weapon. WP was used to scare the enemy, so that the enemy would run, where he would then be cut down by high explosive fragmentation ammunition.
Am I to believe that he takes issue with scaring the enemy before we kill him?
Steve D then repeats an untruth from emailer Mark Kraft at Altercation, who wrongly claims:
. . . there is no way you can use white phosphorus like that without forming a deadly chemical cloud that kills everything within a tenth of a mile in all directions from where it hits. Obviously, the effect of such deadly clouds weren't just psychological in nature.
Unequivocally this is false information. Altercation's commentator Kraft is totally, completely wrong. White phosphorous has been used for over 60 years by the United State military, and is most often deployed to screen the movement of troops from specific enemy positions. As these soldiers assault the position screened by the white phosphorous cloud of smoke, they must often maneuver directly through that smoke to taken their objective. I have been unable to find one instance dating from World War II to the present where a soldier has become a casualty as the result of the "deadly chemical cloud" Kraft relates to. As one of my readers, a retired Army Lt. Colonel related to me via email, "I'm sure breathing the smoke isn't the best thing for you, but Sarin it ain't."
Sadly, it just gets worse for Steve D. and others on the left that would like to forge ahead with this false story.
Military experts have debunked all claims made about white phosphorous weapons. The Italian filmmakers who started this left-wing meltdown have had their credibility shredded, and their American soldier witness was found to be an anti-war activist who never got closer to the battle than a radio.
Now even kos is trying to backtrack and shift focus. Too little, too late.
Consider you anti-American hatred forcefully, and conclusively, denied.
Update: More background on the Italian television station at the bottom of this left-wing fiasco from Captain Marlow.
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CY, I found this online.
Direct quote is below.
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts103.html
Kinda hard to kill everything within a 150 metre radius when it dissapates within minutes. Not much of a chemical weapon if you ask me.
Collateral damage is regrettable and always unacceptable, but it is also a feature of war. Maybe he would be happier if the people were killed by HE, napalm or good ol'fashioned bullets?
And why don't you hear these people complaining about the collateral damage and innocents being killed by the suicide bomners? That would be a great blog article! Sounds fishy if they don't criticize equally, when equal harm is (supposedly) being done.
Quotation:
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts103.html
"In the air, white phosphorus reacts rapidly with oxygen to produce relatively harmless chemicals within minutes.
In water, white phosphorus reacts with oxygen within hours or days.
In water with low oxygen, white phosphorus may degrade to a highly toxic compound called phosphine, which eventually evaporates to the air and is changed to less harmful chemicals."
Marshall Neal
Posted by: Marshall Neal at November 11, 2005 12:02 AM (ZyviB)
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See my post on the Italian politics behind it.
http://cmarlow.blogspot.com/2005/11/politics-behind-italian-documentary-on.html
All the best,
Marlow
Posted by: Captain Marlow at November 11, 2005 07:06 AM (MLfMq)
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"It was used as an incendiary weapon against enemy combatants," spokesman Lt Col Barry Venable told the BBC.
How 'bout them cupcakes?
The Ape Man
Posted by: The Ape Man at November 15, 2005 07:02 PM (F++G6)
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November 09, 2005
Crow. The Other White Meat
Yesterday, I wrote blog post responding a
pack of lies passed off as journalism by the
Independent's Peter Popham.
Popham wrote an article accusing the United States military of using massive quantities of white phosphorous as a chemical weapon the battle of Fallujah. He claimed massive civilian casualties. He claimed that assault went unreported by the media, as were (presumably) the supposed atrocities. But none of Popham's story is supported by the truth.
I wrote a scathing reply to his false charges in this post, pointing out the very obvious fact that many journalists were in Fallujah, including Kevin Sites who shot the internationally famous (or infamous) video of a Marine shooting a wounded terrorist in a Fallujah mosque, or of a picture that made a Kentucky Marine famous as the "Marlboro man."
News photographers shot thousands of photos and hours of video in Fallujah. I was so right about the fact that they were there, but I was so wrong about what their presence and photographic evidence meant.
After reading Popham's article, I must have internalized the quote from the "former American solider" he quotes, who said:
"Phosphorus explodes and forms a cloud. Anyone within a radius of 150 metres is done for."
I then claimed that the lack of protective gear in the photos proved white phosphorous could not have been used in "massive quantities" as claimed by Popham. Boy, was I wrong. It proves nothing of the sort.
From a reader, who happens to be something of an expert:
You made an erroneous correlation in your commentary "Popham, Meet Sites"
concerning the absence of chemical protection on the Marines indicating that
WP would not have been used. Chemical protection is not needed nor used
when WP is employed. There is no respiratory "chemical threat" associated
with WP. Our chemical protection suits would not protect a person from
burns associated with WP. (WP would burn right through a chemical
protection suit.)
In other words, the lack of protective gear I cited meant precisely nothing, because protective gear wouldn't stop white phosphorous, nor even slow it down. He further clarifies the properties of WP:
WP is not employed in an anti-personnel roll. It works great in disabling equipment because of the extreme heat properties of the chemicals. It can burn through thinner steel and iron very quickly rendering equipment unusable. Of course it will quickly ignite fuel and ammunition, hence its use against POL [petroleum/oil/lubricants] and Ammo storage areas. It does not work well against heavily armored equipment like tanks because the there just isn't a large enough mass of burning phosphorus to burn through tank armor.
But wait. Didn't Popham claim the following?
Provided by the Studies Centre of Human Rights in Fallujah, dozens of high-quality, colour close-ups show bodies of Fallujah residents, some still in their beds, whose clothes remain largely intact but whose skin has been dissolved or caramelised or turned the consistency of leather by the shells.
So clothes don't remain "largely intact" nor is skin "dissolved," but is instead completely burned away. White phosphorous does not leave skin "carmelised" nor turns the skin "consistency of leather."
High explosives, commonly used in warfare, however, can "carmelise" skin, and dead bodies in hot dry desert air tends to begin to mummify, and can quite easily turn " the consistency of leather" because of the desiccation of the human body in such an environment.
In short, these wounds are not caused from WP. Period. The burn physics of white phosphorous does not change, though the excuses on the Left flitter by like the wind.
The expert concludes:
Most of the Fallujah operation was conducted in daylight, so the primary use of WP would have been as an obscurant. WP especially from mortars would serve no useful destructive purpose (like an HE round). Technically, in this employment roll, WP would be a tactic, not a weapon – in that it would not be fired with the expectation of killing the enemy. If the enemy was inside a building WP would be wholly ineffective as a weapon employed to neutralize/kill him...
In your defense, Sites and any other reporters close at hand did not report any massive use of WP. It would seem to me that if the Marines had used massive amounts of WP rounds; something out of the ordinary as compared to tactics previously employed, there would have been reporter comments. Not comments condemning the use of chemical weapons, but comments about the employment of an unseen and unusual tactic. Those comments were not forthcoming.
Scott Burgess at the UK blog The Daily Ablution has a similar conversation with an expert today that follows a similar path and reaches similar conclusions.
The Independent stories--Popham's yesterday, and Andrew Buncombe's today--are meritless, tawdry political theater based upon willful ignorance and deliberately uncritical reporting and editing.
I guess there is a place for "Mary Mapes-style" journalism in the world after all.
Also: While you're here, consider this post, will you?
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That's the Independent for you. I dont know how well they cover British issues, but much of their "reporting" on America is just laughable. It makes the Guardian look downright centrist.
Posted by: Go Metro at November 09, 2005 10:32 PM (Vax/m)
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WP ("Willie Peter") has been around a long time. Check out WWII combat films on TV (especially from the Pacific) that show white clouds from exploding rounds. Like napalm, WP was used to get at people protected from conventional explosives. In my Army days, 1959-1961, we fired WP rounds from 4.2-inch mortars for practice. We were told the stuff is nasty, because it will adhere to skin and cannot be extinguished with water. The reporter on this story is only a half-step from breathlessly telling us that bullets are used in Iraq and that they can hurt people.
Posted by: Hammerin' Hank at November 09, 2005 10:45 PM (M7kiy)
3
[
PDF file] on artillery use from the March/April edition of the US Army's "Field Artillery Magazine."
. . . "WP proved to be an effective and versatile munition. We used it for screening missions at two breeches and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with HE. We fired 'shake and bake' missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out."
Embedded reporter describing "shake and bake" WP use in Fallajuh:
"The boom kicked dust around the pit as they ran through the drill again and again, sending a mixture of burning white phosphorus and high explosives they call "shake 'n' bake" into a cluster of buildings where insurgents have been spotted all week."
Posted by: Dave Johnson at November 09, 2005 11:06 PM (/xFuy)
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Its not a "chemical weapon" just another incindiary. One that happens to be hard to put out.
We should make some sodium based incindiary rounds - how could anyone complain about 1/2 the constituent "chemical" in table salt?
Pure sodium is quirky stuff to handle though...
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 10, 2005 12:05 AM (tsOCS)
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If only it were that easy...
"A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes." - Mark Twain
Whatever the truth of the matter is, the ranks of traitors and seditionists are going to keep pounding and pounding on the "US used chemical weapons on civilians in Fallujah" until it becomes an article of faith, and the facts of the case no longer matter. Watch for their representatives in Congress to call for investigations before long.
Posted by: Tommythegun at November 10, 2005 04:04 AM (ybtbS)
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Okay, instead of "Willy Pete", we go after these insurgents in their caves with non-stop sixties peace songs blasted at them from giant speakers until they die laughing, kill themselves with their own weapons, or "turn on, tune in, drop out".
Posted by: Tom T at November 10, 2005 09:53 AM (ywZa8)
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Tom, you obviously underestimate the power of William Shatner's version of "Mr. Tambourine Man" and Leonard Nimoy's rendition "If I Had a Hammer."
Talk about cruel and unusual punishment...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 10, 2005 11:09 AM (g5Nba)
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Actually the March-April 2004 issue of Field Artillery magazine
http://sill-www.army.mil/FAMAG/Previous_Editions/05/mar-apr05/PAGE24-30.pdf
and the May-June 2004 issue of Infantry magazine,
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0IAV/is_3_93/ai_n6366546
both DoD publications, confirm the offensive use of WP. The Field Artllerly issue confirms its use in Fallujah.
Posted by: Rob W at November 10, 2005 01:50 PM (43iqV)
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No one is disputing the actual usage of WP, Rob. The dispute is what WP can do, and what it was used for. The propaganda film that claimed all this BS says that WP would not burn clothes - which is a blatant lie. It also says that breathing WP would melt you from the inside - lie. If you look at any medical fact sheet on the substance, you'll see how completely insane all these claims are.
The Field Artillery issue confirms that they used WP to "flush them out" and HE to "take them out". In other words, just as was said above in this post, WP was used as a tactical weapon, while HE was used as a destructive weapon.
Don't let facts and science get in your way though!
Posted by: Seixon at November 10, 2005 02:28 PM (9RcD9)
Posted by: sojourning crow at November 10, 2005 02:35 PM (9Ts0y)
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You gotta remember that these "peace activists" never let mere facts get in the way of truth.
Posted by: shoprat at November 10, 2005 10:38 PM (BewsC)
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You may want to share this with your readers. This is not a professional work, but just an informal analysis.
I had this conversation yesterday regarding this news story about WP being used as a chemical weapon.
I am a former fire support officer, who was trained to travel with infantry and armor units and be the eyes of the artillery to call for fire.
I read the article from the Italian news source, and let me state unequivocally that what it claims is physically impossible. A white phosphorous round used for illumination is a base ejecting projectile that "opens" in the air and floats down under a parachute. The projectile casing does continue down range, but fire direction officers and fire support officers along with the maneuver commanders clear this impact area as part of the calculations. The projectile casing itself could kill a person, as any bullet would, but it is not possible to use it as a chemical warfare attack.
The flare itself floats down and you would pretty much have to chase after it and position yourself under where you project it will land to even get burned. It is possible although very unlikely that this flare could hit a building and could cause a fire, but the injury wouldnÂ’t be a chemical burn, but a burn from the building fire. I have never seen anything close to this happen.
The flares come down slowly and usually burn out first, but since they are the brightest thing in the sky, it would be easy to avoid one if it landed while burning. I have seen a few flares land on the ground while burning, but this is much different than a chemical attack.
The only way you could purposely harm anyone with this is if you direct fired at a short range. The projectile most likely wouldn't eject the flare (it has a timed fuse) and it really wouldn't matter if you fired Cheetohs at someone at that range, the concussion would kill them.
An artillery unit wouldn't use direct fire unless it was being attacked. And even then it would use their organic direct fire weapons and if necessary, another type of projectile. To use a WP for direct fire would be entirely counterproductive to the security of the battery even in self defense.
This Italian news story is nothing but a lie.
After being asked repeatedly to analyze the “Italian News Story” (gag), I analyzed the video, here are my thoughts
I analyzed the video and am pleased to announce that it is junk. There are many things I could point out, but here is what sticks out.
1. The “fire raining down from the helicopter” was the part that concerned me. I had to watch it repeatedly to figure it out. At first I thought it was the backblast from a missile being fired the other direction. After a more thorough analysis, I realize it was an air burst of WP artillery rounds. Those are basically small rags that looked like balls of fire. This is because it is night and it is hard to get perspective at night, with or without night vision equipment. Taken out of context, it is easy to make it look like fire raining down on the city. The rag would certainly burn, but it would be like a cigarette and you would just need to brush it off, maybe take off clothes, and get away from it.
2. The voice over states "contrary to the claim by the state department that WP was used in open fields, this was not true because tracer rounds were used to illuminate the enemy" Nothing could have spelled out liar any bigger than that one statement. Tracy rounds are never used to illuminate the enemy. The glow from a tracer round lasts tenths of a second and travels hundreds of miles an hour; it could not possibly be used for this function, again a claim that defies all practicality. Tracer rounds are used to see where your bullets are going so your fire can be adjusted, flat out. And quoting the State Department about a military function?
3. The pictures of dead bodies while hideous provide no analytical value. Contrast the opening from Vietnam, with the burned little girl, running from a napalmed village. That is conclusive evidence. Nothing about these dead bodies looked any different to the many dead bodies I have seen analyzing other videos (of dead bodies) that were all made that way (dead) by SaddamÂ’s regime and then by Jihadists. There is no way to determine what killed these people by looking at pictures, except maybe by a forensics expert.
4. The soldiers, this is more complicated:
I find the taller guy, I think his name was Garret, credible. His story rang true and is tragically repeated. But this is not a war crime or a chemical attack, but bad target identification and a complete human tragedy, assuming the "civilians" were indeed non combatants, it is very hard for the soldiers to tell. Although I do question his motives that is irrelevant to this analysis since he provides no “evidence” of chemical weapons.
The other guy Jeff was a liar, to the point I would need to see his orders to believe he was in Iraq. He states, (paraphrasing) "the orders unequivocally came from the pentagon to wait until after the election".
How does he know this? Was he CENTCOM commander at the time? Did the CENTCOM commander call him up and tell him that? Even if it was true, that fact in itself is not nefarious.
The re-election of Bush would be a crushing blow to the Jihadists in Fallujah, and let me tell you, I have seen their own videos recovered from there and the place was crawling with them. It would make tactical sense to wait, if you were pretty confident that Bush would win. They call this tactical patience.
Also, the timing of the attack was heavily influenced by the Iraqi Provisional Authority. The U.S. had just helped them form and wanted to get them involved with running their country as soon as possible. That is why the first battle of Fallujah was ended, because the new Iraqi government wanted more time to talk with the Jihadists. That is until the new Iraqi government officials figured out that they were now the primary target of the Jihadists and told the U.S. effectively, go get them (the Jihadists in Fallujah) as soon as you can.
Jeff states (paraphrasing), that the U.S. was using chemical weapons because we used WP. Hogwash. The video itself showed the flares floating slowly to the ground and the ground itself gave perspective. Now I am not saying I would want WP on my skin, but I wouldn't want Drano on my skin either and I am not declaring chemical warfare on my home. Now a person could make the argument that you could take that Drano and throw it on your neighbor and that would be a chemical attack. True, but, you can not spew WP from a deployed flare because if it is burning, it is burning the WP. You wouldnÂ’t want to put your mouth over it, of course, and you wouldnÂ’t want to purposely hold it to your skin, but you would have to go out of the way to hurt yourself with a flare.
c. He states (paraphrasing) when they used the stuff (WP) they would come over the net and say the WP is coming or "commence bombing" or something.
Commence bombing? Who was on the net giving this sitrep, Clark Gable? ThatÂ’s about the last time anybody used this term. This guy is a clown. And notice he makes claims and then says, oh, I didn't see it, but I heard about it.
5. The real tip off about the credibility of this “news story” is the pictures of dead animals.
The voice over said, paraphrasing: that several animals were found dead with no visible sign of trauma.
First off, did they examine the animals? If so, they didnÂ’t show it. Sure something is not visible, if you donÂ’t look! Animals die everyday from natural causes, hunger, disease, or even getting hit by cars or possibly by conventional weapons.
And get this, they show people who appear burned and claim this to be a sign of a chemical weapon, then they show animals with no injuries in the context of this discussion to imply they died of a mysterious chemical weapon. Their “facts” not only fail to support each other, but they directly conflict with each other. Yet they choose to throw them at the viewer with full understanding of the emotional impact of these images.
6. A human rights group based in Fallujah? For crying out loud, that was Saddam's power base. That is were the people burned four contractors and hung them from a bridge.
By introducing these “facts” in the context of a chemical weapons discussion, yet not having any supporting evidence, I can only conclude that not only are these charges false, but this was done with the documentary creator’s full knowledge that they were baseless charges. In other words, they purposely lied, which goes to their credibility.
After I wrote this, I was informed of more “supporting evidence” linked on the www.Dailykos.com:
“"WP [i.e., white phosphorus rounds] proved to be an effective and versatile munition. We used it for screening missions at two breeches and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with HE. We fired 'shake and bake' missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out."
-- Field Artillery Magazine, via Steven D
My analysis:
I donÂ’t mean to speak for the author, but this is evident
""WP [i.e., white phosphorus rounds] proved to be an effective and versatile munition."
Very true and widely known among redlegs (artillerymen). Nothing interesting here.
"We used it for screening missions at two breeches ..."
The kind of projectile they are speaking about here creates smoke. It is widely, commonly, and legally used by every army to conceal their men. Usually, if an obstacle needs to be breeched, the smoke is delivered by artillery in between the obstacle and the enemy observer. It can also be placed on the enemy to confuse and scare them. The smoke itself is uncomfortable, but not dangerous, unless you want to sit on top of the projectile and breathe it. I know because I have experienced it.
"and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with HE."
Notice he said psychological weapon and not chemical weapon. This is because the smoke would confuse the enemy and conceal our movements and would indeed, scare them.
"We fired 'shake and bake' missions at the insurgents"
A poor choice of phrasing because it is not technically accurate and does give the wrong impression, but this is a soldier and not a politician or a marketing strategist. (After further consideration, I think if the reference is to the projectile itself and not to the effect on flesh, it could be accurate. The HE would shake the ground and the material that creates smoke does so by burning (baking) but you would pretty much have to try to set yourself on fire by rolling around in it.)
"using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out."
This takes a little bit of imagination. Imagine you are in a fighting position and the enemy is dropping smoke near your position. You ask yourself "why are they dropping smoke here?" the answer "because they are coming right through here." So, you haul butt out of your defensive position and expose yourself to HE.
This statement has absolutely nothing to do with the “dual use” of smoke (WP) as a chemical weapon. It is stating that WP can have a psychological effect as well as a tactical use. That is the only “dual use” here.
-Ray Robison is a Sr. Military Operations Research Analyst with Scientific Applications International Corporation at the Aviation and Missile, Research, Development, Engineering Command in Huntsville Alabama. His background includes over ten years of military service as an officer and enlisted soldier in the Medical Branch, Field Artillery and Signal Corp including the Gulf War and Kosovo operations. Most recently he worked as a contractor for DIA with the Iraqi Survey Group.
Posted by: Ray Robison at November 12, 2005 06:49 PM (4joLu)
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So, no more cavalry in the house to throw in the gauntlet and fight like knights?
You guys make General Custer look hot LOOOL.
Posted by: Nader at November 20, 2005 09:30 AM (KIU4h)
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As you say Tom T (does this stand for Mr. T?) there are many ways of going after the Iraqi resistance. There is always the Texas Chainsaw drama. or, the classic Charles Manson approach.
Posted by: Nader at November 20, 2005 10:36 AM (vBN2f)
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November 06, 2005
France Fries
A burned-out McDonalds in Corbeil-Essonnes, south of Paris. Via Yahoo!
A bomb-making operation was found in a Paris suburb last night as more than 900 vehicles, schools and shops were torched by Muslim immigrants in incidents spreading across France from Normandy to Paris to Mediterranean Sea.
The European Civil War is ahead of schedule, but hardly surprising. Sadly, as Mark Steyn notes, we have come to the edge of critical point in Western European history.
Now would be a prudent time to deploy the military to restore order, but as Parapundit notes, the loyalty of the French Army is in doubt.
The riots seem to be spreading, the police are ineffectual, the government is paralyzed by doubt, and the military, apparently, isn't trusted to follow orders.
If the French don't break out of their torpor soon, this might become known as the largest minaret in the world.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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The French need to remember that France is their home and if they don't fight for it, no one will.
Posted by: shoprat at November 06, 2005 04:31 PM (BewsC)
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All juvenile delinquents are the same all over the world,they know how far they can go. These guys have cell phones, police scanners, and computers, and hit and run knowing that they won't be shot, at least by anything that causes a fatal injury. If your car is destroyed, and you couldn't legally defend your property with a firearm, who is to blame?
Posted by: Tom T at November 06, 2005 07:02 PM (M7kiy)
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On the briteside, the McDs now has an additional drive-thru window.
Posted by: the man at November 07, 2005 03:06 PM (EDlAL)
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You think? I thought it looked more like a drive-in...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 07, 2005 03:17 PM (g5Nba)
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Words fail to give an adequate picture of the present days in France, but this Map despite the fact that it is without doubt dated at this time, does reveal what the media has clouded with smoke and mirrors.
France in Flames
Posted by: Dan Kauffman at November 09, 2005 02:45 AM (hxRR8)
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November 04, 2005
Gore-Wilson-Alamoudi-al Qaeda?
Wow.
Probably nothing but a conspiracy theory, but all too many intersecting interests, altogether, indeed...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:52 PM
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Perhaps it is a conspiracy theory.
However, it is an impressively supported and researched one.
The connections with Scowcroft and Sen. Hagel are VERY interesting as well; it helps to explain part of the psychology of why career Republicans have been so strong in their opposition of Bush and his foreign policy.
Mike Wallace, Gerald Rivera - eat your heart out. Investigate THIS one, prove it, and the Pulitzer will be yours.
Yeah, I know -- dream on.
Posted by: Atticus_NC at November 05, 2005 08:07 AM (3lxJi)
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November 03, 2005
Spanish Train Bomb Suspect Captured?
Via
AP:
One al-Qaida suspect was killed in a police raid and a second was arrested, Pakistan announced Thursday, and an official said officials are trying to determine if the detainee is a Syrian with a $5 million U.S. bounty on his head for training terrorists.
Intelligence officials said a third man, with links to a Pakistani extremist group, was also captured Tuesday during the raid on a shop in this southern city that served as the office of an Islamic charity linked to a militant group.
"I can only confirm there was an encounter, and our security forces arrested one suspected al-Qaida terrorist while another terrorist was killed," Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed told The Associated Press. He said it would "take some time" to confirm their identities.
But a senior government official raised the possibility one of the arrested men is Mustafa Setmarian Nasar, 47, a Syrian native who holds Spanish citizenship.
It continues
Media reports have linked Nasar, also known as Abu Musab al-Suri, to the 2004 commuter train bombings in Madrid, Spain, that killed 191 people and to the July 7 attacks in London that left 56 dead, including the four bombers.
In September 2003, Nasar was among 35 people named in an indictment handed down by a Spanish magistrate for terrorist activities connected to al-Qaida.
If this is true, another high-level terrorist is out of action. The killing or capture of "A" list terrorists are getting fewer and further between. Of course, that probably has something to do with the fact that there aren't many more "A" listers still alive.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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