July 30, 2008
Summer Camp?
That is what Reuter's says
this picture portrays.
The caption reads, "Palestinian youths attend a summer camp organised by the Islamic Jihad movement in Gaza City July 30, 2008."
The Islamic Jihad, of course, is a terrorist group established with the goal of wiping out the Jewish state of Israel and the establishment of an Islamic Palestinian state. Their interests include Qassam rocketry, suicide bombings, and martyr operations.
This isn't a "summer camp" as we would recognize it. This is the modern Hitler Youth.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Wait, does that mean that Islamic Jihad is a right-wing movement?
I mean, it has to, right?
Posted by: Andrew the Noisy at July 31, 2008 12:54 PM (cntKs)
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Hitler was a socialist, dummy. A leftwinger, through and through. If jihad actually were a rightwing phenomenon we might get some Democrats to take it seriously.
Posted by: megapotamus at August 01, 2008 03:15 PM (LF+qW)
3
Sarcasm: Learn to pick up on it.
Posted by: Andrew the Noisy at August 02, 2008 10:06 AM (cntKs)
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July 23, 2008
A Russian "Greenlight" to Attack Iran?
That is one intriguing interpretation of
today's disclosure that Iran would be getting the long range Russian surface-to-air missile system known as the S-300PMU-1 (SA-20), and that the system would be deployable in as soon as six months from their expected September arrival.
The Russians no doubt relish the contortions the West is going through over Iran's nuclear program, but at the same time, their intelligence organizations are telling them that Iran is working on developing nuclear weapons and missile technologies that can also threaten Russian interests.
By selling the Iranians advanced weapons systems and then disclosing their most likely deployment dates, the Russians are trying to have their cake and eat it too.
They've outlined the outside window of Iran's greatest vulnerability to an air assault on its nuclear program and command and control facilities. It only remains to be seen now whether or not American and Israeli leaders will strike with enough force to irreparably destroy key elements of the Iranian nuclear program, or if they will make the deadly mistake of trying to avert a nuclear war "on the cheap."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:58 PM
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Doesn't Russia still have a treaty with Iran authorizing Russia's unilateral intervention in the event of a violation of Iranian soverign territory?
Is a divided Iran
a la Germany 1945-1991 in the offing? The Russians
still want/need a warm water port. Iran has a bunch of coast on the Caspian sea as well as the IO...
Posted by: Gus Bailey at July 23, 2008 01:39 PM (LZarw)
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Well this isn't diffinitive, but: http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/21207
Posted by: Gus Bailey at July 23, 2008 01:41 PM (LZarw)
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The S-300PMU is notable for being capable of ballistic missile defense as well as anti-aircraft roles.
The smart money is on a late-October deployment target - a lot of people are sure the Israelis are going to wait until after the US Presidential elections to attack Iran's nuclear weapons program.
Posted by: cirby at July 23, 2008 02:12 PM (C0p6T)
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I think a better indication of a green light would be the Russians announcing when they will receive payment in full.
Posted by: Dusty at July 24, 2008 09:03 AM (1Lzs1)
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July 16, 2008
While the Media Slept...
...another province, Diwaniyah, was
handed over to Iraqi government control.
This means that for the first time, a democratically-elected Iraqi government is in charge of a majority of the country (10 of 18 provinces). The largest province and former home of the Sunni insurgency, al Anbar, is on the cusp of being handed over as well.
You would think that turning point such as the Iraqis taking over the control of the majority of their country would be a moment that editorial writers, always looking for moments pregnant with symbolism, would gush over.
Alas, Iraq isn't as newsworthy with victory so near at hand (and with the anointed candidate faltering so badly), and so this milestone goes all but unreported.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the -
Web Reconnaissance for 07/17/2008 A short recon of whatÂ’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.
Posted by: David M at July 17, 2008 12:42 PM (gIAM9)
Posted by: K T Cat at July 18, 2008 10:20 AM (ML6gQ)
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Do we HAVE to repeat this??? News of this kind coming out of Iraq doesnt get reported because it doesnt do one single thing to help Michelle Obama's children get through dance class or piano lessons or help her pay off the $600 earrings she bought with her share of the national bribe...er, stimulus.
Additionally, good news out of Iraq distracts us from gazing at the Lightworker.
C'mon, people. This is fundamental.
Posted by: mike d at July 18, 2008 12:54 PM (Ug3ki)
Posted by: 南京货架、" rel="nofollow">仓储货架。 at March 05, 2009 11:06 AM (g0HKW)
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July 15, 2008
Framing Obama
Matthew Yglesias wants to get into a
framing discussion and attempts to argue than an
ABC poll was unfair to his man-crush/candidate.
Without nailing down the dishonesties in Yglesias' attempts to recast McCain's position, let's get into the specifics of what will be lost by Obama's 16-month withdrawal plan.
Logistically, it is deemed quite improbable, verging on impossible, for U.S. combat forces to perform an orderly withdrawal in 16 months. A withdrawal of personnel is possible, but at the cost of leaving behind hundreds of millions (if not billions) of dollars in taxpayer-purchased equipment that would have to be repurchased stateside, increasing future government debt, promising us yet another tax increase courtesy of Obama.
A commenter of his (Allan) claims that "Obama supports removing our troops from Iraq in an orderly process," but that is the height of fantasy; those who work in logistics have noted that his plan would promote chaos and unnecessary stresses on the supply chain and limited port facilities that have to process, decontaminate, pack, and ship outbound equipment and supplies.
This is simply the logistical argument, ignoring the dangers of a too-quick handover in provinces where Iraqi forces are still not deemed capable of taking the lead. Considering the stellar progress and trajectory of security gains and government progress in the last year, it is possible that in 16 months that the Iraqi security forces can take the lead in the eight remaining provinces where the U.S. is in charge of security, but it would be foolish and counterproductive to predetermine the removal of the safety net U.S. forces would still provide as Iraqi forces become more competent and confident.
Unless, of course, you have some vested interest in defeat.
Then there is the simple common-sense matter of which troops Obama wants to remove (combat forces). As a Iraqi war soldier or Marine (I forget which) remarked last week, who's going to be left in Obama's Army in Iraq, cooks and truck drivers?
Who is going to protect our remaining troops and positions and backstop the Iraqis if Obama pulls out our combat troops? Supply clerks? Dental hygienists?
Obama's plans for Iraq, like all of his other plans, are formulated with the impulsiveness and lack of concern for the unintended consequences of international affairs we'd expect from a neophyte government official not even one term removed from an inconsequential and lackluster state government stint, and a responsibility-free community organizer job before it.
Like so many things attached to the name Obama, his withdrawal plan for Iraqi is based upon irresponsible promises divorced from what he can actually deliver without causing far more hurt, a truism of his campign that can just as readily be applied to his domestic and foreign policy perscriptions.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I thought the Dalai Obama was going to formulate his Iraq plan in consultation with commanders on the ground. I haven't seen any evidence of consultation. Why is he announcing a plan in advance of his visit? It seems like more empty rhetoric from an empty suit.
Posted by: daleyrocks at July 15, 2008 09:45 AM (i/fLn)
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Posted by: daleyrocks at July 15, 2008 09:45 AM - "I thought the Dalai Obama was going to formulate his Iraq plan in consultation with commanders on the ground. I haven't seen any evidence of consultation. Why is he announcing a plan in advance of his visit? It seems like more empty rhetoric from an empty suit."
Hussien's supporters just wouldn't accept his meeting unconditionally with US military commanders, as this type of treatment is reserved specifically for democratic allies (such as Iranian nutjob - Amadinejad). Nancy Pelosi fully approves, as she gives Amadinejad full credit for the fruits of US soldiers blood sweat and tears - in making the surge a success.
Announcing a plan prior to actually visiting Iraq is just further proof of the Obamessiah's omnipotence, and not part of the empty suit's regular song and dance! Ummm boppa oooo mauh mauh... uh uh uh oh.... Obama lama ding dong! OOoooooo!
Posted by: GL at July 15, 2008 03:24 PM (vpAFg)
3
Little known fact:
When George Washington was a boy, he got a new hatchet and was eager to try it out. He went to the prized cherry tree and began whacking. (the tree that is)
When his father discovered the cherry tree’s absence, he asked George, “George, what happened to the prized cherry tree?” To which George replied, “Father, I cannot tell a lie. I chopped down the cherry tree.” To which his father replied, “Then you shall have 10 lashes boy.” To which George replied, “Perhaps I was
inartful in my truth-telling. What I meant to say was that my friend Benedict told me that it was not a cherry tree and it would be a good tree to practice with my new ax. So I chopped it down thinking it was not the prized cherry tree. So in effect, I did not chop down the cherry tree. I’m reshuffling my friends at this time.”
Posted by: Neo at July 15, 2008 04:50 PM (Yozw9)
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And the logistical argument is a good one to use as it isn't an attack on his person, but an attackon his experience and judgment. How you get form here to there (and vice versa) is something very few take into account.
Posted by: Mikey NTH at July 16, 2008 05:31 PM (TUWci)
Posted by: 货架、 at March 01, 2009 10:34 AM (+Xe1F)
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July 10, 2008
Never Too Late to Spread a Little Fear
You have to give credit where credit is due: the Washington
Post isn't quite ready to surrender to victory in Iraq, and they're not above hyping a desperate bid for relevance by waning Shia militias as a significant tactical adaptation.
U.S. Troops in Iraq Face A Powerful New Weapon by Ernesto Londoño of the Washington Post Foreign Service was a much better article the first time I read it over a month ago in Bill Roggio's far more useful Long War Journal article, which the Post mentions but doesn't link. I can only assume that the Post failed to link Roggio's article because is so much more competently written.
While Londoño seems intent on describing a weapon system that is a an improvement over past improvised devices in describing a weapon that has killed at least 21 people, he buries the fact that 18 of those 21 (16 civilians, two Madhi Army militiamen) were killed as a result of the jury-rigged bombs failing, and detonating in their launchers.
The so-called IRAM is a crude, desperate weapon apparently designed by the Judean People's Front.
I'm not surprised that the Post would try to hype potential bad news in Iraq, but a crude weapon that has killed six times more people on the launching end than the receiving end seems more ripe for mocking than fear.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Nonsense! It was designed by the People's Front of Judea!
Posted by: Will T. Power at July 10, 2008 10:03 AM (ViOls)
2
The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the -
Web Reconnaissance for 07/10/2008 A short recon of whatÂ’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.
Posted by: David M at July 10, 2008 12:02 PM (gIAM9)
Posted by: Stan at July 10, 2008 01:08 PM (3Wewy)
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It's a home-made katyusha, and those have been around for about 65 years.
Posted by: Mikey NTH at July 10, 2008 02:43 PM (O9Cc8)
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Something like this was used against US Forces in Japan in the mid 1980's, fired against Yokota AFB while we were stationed there, but with a single rocket. The launch truck was burned out to destroy identification/evidence. I've got to say, the Japanese Red Army Faction did a better job of design...the rocket flew right down the airfield and "detonated" (not much warhead, they primarily wanted to show what they could have done) between the runway and a housing area....where we lived.
Posted by: doug in Colorado at July 11, 2008 06:49 PM (BX0Pj)
Posted by: at March 01, 2009 09:02 AM (+Xe1F)
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July 09, 2008
Iraqi Government Considers Timetable for U.S. Withdrawal
They aren't quite ready for coalition forces to leave just yet, but the dramatic gains in terms of security and political successes now have the Iraqi government suggesting a
possible U.S. withdrawal.
The Iraqis are confident in their ability to handle their own affairs, and I can certainly understand them wanting Iraq fully back in Iraqi hands. They're hoping for a pull-out in the 2011-13 timeframe and would like to try to establish a deadline based upon "conditions and circumstances" on the ground.
Considering the present situation in Iraq, I certainly think that a pullout in that 3-5 year window is certainly possible, though I can understand why some in Washington may be leery committing to date-based withdrawal schedule, just as I can understand why Iraqis would like to have a specific date to look forward to. As the Iraqi government and coalition forces negotiate, perhaps the best option—and to my mind, the most logical—would be a compromise agreement, that says by X date, Y forces should withdraw if Z conditions have been met, and if not by that date, as soon as those conditions are met.
This would give Iraqis not just a date to look forward to, but give them more incentive to make sure that security and political needs of their citizens are being addressed.
What would be hilarious in watching these developments—if it wasn't so pathetic—are progressive Democrats crowing about this recent decision by Iraqi officials, insisting that a timeline for withdrawal is exactly what they've been asking for all along.
Not so fast.
Some progressives have been pushing for a withdrawal since before the first bomb dropped on Saddam Hussein's Iraq. Some are genuinely opposed to the idea of all wars for any reason, some were opposed to a war launched for reasons they disagreed with by a government they disagreed with, and some fickle souls began pushing for withdrawal only once the conflict became more bloody, expensive, and protracted than they assumed it would be.
However they got to that position, they got there by the worst days of the war in 2006, when Sunni and Shia militias were locked in a deadly sectarian conflict verging on open civil war, and coalition forces were taking heavy casualties. At the time John Murtha, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and other Congressional Democrats were calling the loudest for a timeline for withdrawing American forces in Iraq, the safety and security of the Iraqi people and the success of their nation was the last thing on their minds.
Democrats wanted American troops pulled out of Iraq as soon as logistically possible, without preconditions, even if it plunged that nation into open an civil war that could cost tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of innocent lives, even if such a headlong withdrawal led to genocide, even if such a morally bankrupt decision led to a widespread regional war.
It was and is a craven, reprehensible act of cowardice, mirroring the shameful behavior of the Copperhead Democrats 140 years earlier who wanted to abandon Blacks to slavery in the South to sue for peace in the U.S. Civil War.
The Copperheads of today's Democratic Party color themselves "progressives" for championing the abandonment of a group of people (slightly lighter in skin tone than the last time) to a fate potentially as bad or worse than the slaves of antebellum, and make no mistake: the modern Copperheads care no more about "liberty and justice for all" than did their forebearers.
Then as now, it was about their selfish personal desires, hopes of amassing political power, and disdain for a stubborn Republican President. Then as now, they could rely upon their friends in the media to carry forth a call for appeasement and abandonment.
But the situation now in Iraq is far different now than it was when progressive Democrats began advocating the abandonment Iraqi civilians to a bloody fate.
Now, it is an increasingly competent and confident Iraqi government itself that builds hope of a U.S. withdrawal, based upon their growing strength and the continuing vanquishment of terrorists, criminal militias, and common gangs.
A timeline for withdrawal based upon Iraqi and coalition successes is to be commended as a beacon of hope for a brighter future for a new and sovereign democracy in the Middle East, just as the timeline of abandonment and defeat advocated by progressive Democrats should be regarded by history as a mark of shame.
Update: A bit dog barks.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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There is not a coherent point in this rambling mess of retardation.
Posted by: BobP at July 09, 2008 03:17 PM (C00yi)
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Bob, what a stellar observation.....
The Democrats have been pressing for a withdrawal in defeat since Day 0. The idea of coalition forces leaving Iraq in relative peace is anathema to them. It's all over the world. They've been shouting it from the rooftops for 5+ years now.
Posted by: Techie at July 09, 2008 03:44 PM (Ddo8X)
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If Strom Thurmond and Jesse Helms were around back then, they would have been Copperhead Democrats. So in truth they were more akin to today's Republicans than Democrats (at least where Civil Rights is concerned).
Also, the other big difference- the group being slighted were American citizens (somewhat), not citizens in another country.
By the way, since when do conservatives care what happens to non-Americans?
Posted by: jGregg at July 09, 2008 03:45 PM (kQZ6Y)
4
BobP was right. There wasn't a coherent point in HIS (BobP's) rambling mess of retardation. Now, looking at the blogpost, I see many coherent points in a well-structured post of elucidation. -cp
Posted by: cold pizza at July 09, 2008 03:49 PM (VOA2U)
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If I recall correctly, Republicans pushed a 50+ year long Cold War to prevent the world from falling under the shackles of Communism. Democrats used to believe in that too.
"Let both sides unite to heed in all corners of the earth the command of Isaiah—to "undo the heavy burdens ... and to let the oppressed go free.""
JFK- Inaugural Address, 1961
Posted by: Techie at July 09, 2008 03:49 PM (Ddo8X)
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"My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man."
- ibid
Posted by: Techie at July 09, 2008 03:50 PM (Ddo8X)
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jGregg-
I think what the Confederate Yankee is arguing is that America should have a large military presence in places like Darfur and Burma. Is that right?
Posted by: Michael at July 09, 2008 04:05 PM (x9tVU)
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Personally, I do think we should intervene in Darfur and Burma. Normally, I would say "the West" should, but America is the sole advanced Western power with a functioning military. France and Germany certainly couldn't do it.
Or, we could just let them rot like Rwanda. Don't want to be "imperialistic", don't we?
Posted by: Techie at July 09, 2008 04:12 PM (Ddo8X)
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I see that, as usual, lefties are incapable of comprehending logic. Must be because they so seldom use it themselves.
Posted by: C-C-G at July 09, 2008 05:29 PM (n8vfc)
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The retardation of the right knows no bounds.
Posted by: Yankee Confederate at July 10, 2008 09:17 AM (8ok1j)
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Welcome back, Nunaim. :p
Posted by: C-C-G at July 10, 2008 05:41 PM (n8vfc)
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The Democrats have been pressing for a withdrawal in defeat since Day 0.
Some Democrats (not nearly enough, but that's another matter) said it was a bad idea from the start. The reasoning was weak and the threat was non-existent. Meanwhile, it took focus and forces away from Afghanistan, where there was a threat.
The idea of coalition forces leaving Iraq in relative peace is anathema to them.
? I'm not even sure what you're arguing here. Like the host, Iraqis themselves want us to leave. They've endured as much peace from America, one thinks, as they can stand.
It's all over the world. They've been shouting it from the rooftops for 5+ years now.
This is just hysterical. "Yeah, those loser liberals complaining that after a mere 5 years of death, destruction and political stalemate -- all while the US economy goes to shit they still think we should leave. Losers."
Sure, only 60 or so Iraqis were blown up yesterday and hundreds more injured and thousands more scared shitless and millions more wondering if they'll ever be able to live in their own house again and yeah, to get to this stage has only taken longer than World War Two, but, um, what's your point again?
If I recall correctly, Republicans pushed a 50+ year long Cold War to prevent the world from falling under the shackles of Communism. Democrats used to believe in that too.
The staggering amount of ignorance and presumption bottled into that nugget is breathtaking.
1. Republicans didn't "push" the Cold War. Many wanted a very, very HOT war with the Commies, some wanted to nuke Russia, others wanted to invade China. Then, later, sought to nuke Vietnam.
2. The Cold War was basically caused by a strategy of containment developed by a Democrat (George Kennan, under Dean Acheson in the Truman Administration), backed by Republican realists and "fought" by an arms race proposed by every single post-war President and funded by a Democratic Congress.
3. What the fuck does Communism or a Cold War have to do with occupying and dying in Iraq?
4. But the situation now in Iraq is far different now than it was when progressive Democrats began advocating the abandonment Iraqi civilians to a bloody fate.
It's possibly better than it was at any time post invasion -- possibly -- but by your own definition of giving a shit about Iraqi civilians, it was better for them before "Shock and Awe". Really.
Posted by: Jay B. at July 11, 2008 05:18 PM (x7Shh)
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Homegrown Terrorists Killed Outside U.S. Consulate in Istanbul
Three gunmen
ambushed Turkish police outside the U.S. consulate in Instanbul, Turkey today, in an attack that left all three attackers and three Turkish police officers dead, but not before the police killed their assailants.
The attack was carried out with handguns and a pump shotgun, indicating this was not the work of an organized terrorist organization such as al Qaeda or Hezbollah. These groups have a well-documented history of using large vehicle-borne explosives to carry out attacks against fortified positions such as embassies and consulates. Using such short-range weaponry in such a poorly executed and apparently ad hoc assault, the attack had virtually no chance of success, and no one was apparently injured inside the consulate.
A fourth man seen with the three attackers never left a gray car seen at a nearby carwash moments before the ambush, and escaped after his compatriots were killed.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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While true this could just be an ad-hoc attack, what is the possibility that they were using this attack to gauge the response times of various emergency response and security teams? They could have observers prepositioned and this would give them an idea of how US security detachments would react if they didn't have that information already.
Not trying to make a mountain of a molehill - recon by fire like this only serves to heighten security and may be detrimental to follow up ops.
Posted by: Dan Irving at July 09, 2008 08:29 AM (zw8QA)
2
We really have to applaud the Turkish police on this one, they are after all the ones responsible for protecting the Embassy.
Not only did the Turkish police officers due their duty in protecting the Embassy three of them gave their lives during the process.
No personnel inside the Embassy were hurt.
Posted by: John Davis at July 09, 2008 12:28 PM (GAf+S)
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July 08, 2008
Map Quest
"...a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing."
Such were the famous words of Shakespeare's MacBeth, though they apply equally well to empty Iranian threats against U.S. Naval vessels in the Persian Gulf in case of conflict between our nations.
The simple fact of the matter is that should tensions escalate, U.S. capital ships have no need to be in the Persian Gulf to control the Iranian shoreline and the Straits of Hormuz.
The image above, pulled from Google Maps, shows, small body of water on the left is the Persian Gulf. The large body on the right is the Gulf of Oman, outlet to the Arabian Sea and the Indian Ocean (larger map).
U.S. carriers, amphibious assault ships, and larger surface ships can easily leave the Persian Gulf via the Straits of Hormuz if a strike on Iran is imminent, far removing them from the range of Iranian surface ships, aircraft, and radar stations. This negates the threat of Iranian anti-ship missiles, and turns the threat of blindly-fired ballistic missiles into irrelevancies splashing down in empty seas.
Iran would retain the ability to strike Israel, and could no doubt stir up trouble in Iraq via it's terror cells there, or even an open but suicidal direct assault against American forces in Iraq and elsewhere on land throughout the Gulf region, but the threats of a Iranian counterstrike against U.S. Naval forces is little more than bluster.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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The quote is from Hamlet when he was contemplating suicide.
My favorite quote from MacBeth was near the end when he says "Oh, those who lie like truth."
Posted by: Merv Benson at July 08, 2008 11:02 AM (HKB1I)
2
U.S. carriers, amphibious assault ships, and larger surface ships can easily leave the Persian Gulf via the Straits of Hormuz if a strike on Iran is imminent
Unfortunately, Iran is not Helen Keller, nor are they complete idiots. Any unusual exodus will not go unnoticed.
By now they've certainly developed a profile of what a "normal" US disposition is. Any significant downward deviation is likely to provoke preemptive strikes and mine laying activity against any shipping activity in the strait.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at July 08, 2008 11:13 AM (Hxw+V)
3
I doubt Bush or the Israelis will attach ..Shiites believe the reappearance of the 12th Imam will bring justice and peace to the world by establishing Islam throughout the world. They believe he will reappear when the world has fallen into chaos. It is believed the chaos will start in Afghanistan and then move into Iraq, where there will be blood and destruction everywhere (already in the works) and from there to the world with burning dark clouds (nuclear war). The 12th Imam will then come to
destroy the “Dajjal,” the False Messiah, free the world from oppression and aggression, and then bring justice where it will be heaven on earth for many years to come. It is said Jesus will reappear at the same time and fight alongside Mahdi.
If I read this right, the
Iranians predict Obama, the “Dajjal” (AKA the False Messiah), will win, but will be destroyed by Mahdi, the 12th imam.
No wonder that Obama, the “Dajjal”, is so big on “service”. Charlie Rangel may finally get that draft he has been trying to get for years now.
So much for peace in our time.
Posted by: Neo at July 08, 2008 12:01 PM (Yozw9)
Posted by: Education Guy at July 08, 2008 02:21 PM (TBf8o)
5
So, if our ships start to leave the Gulf, the Iranians are going to fire on them?
That's not very smart of them.....
Posted by: Techie at July 08, 2008 04:22 PM (Ddo8X)
6
SEYTON
The queen, my lord, is dead.
MACBETH
She should have died hereafter;
There would have been a time for such a word.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
Macbeth
Act V, Scene V
Posted by: Techie at July 08, 2008 04:24 PM (Ddo8X)
7
*Still* ignoring the other story of the day? The one that goes something like
"Iraq insists on withdrawal timetable" and is followed-up by,
"US rejects Iraqi demand for troops' withdrawal timeline" ?
So much for your take on the current situation in Iraq, with your huffing and puffing about the 'defeatists' back home who ignore facts (sic) like "Al Anbar province in Iraq, once described as all but lost, will become the tenth Iraqi province handed over to Iraqi government control" (CY, "A Sad Day for Copperheads"). Except that "control" ≠ "sovereignty".
Posted by: j at July 08, 2008 04:56 PM (Lo7Nc)
8
I just read somewhere that the US has placed a carrier in the gulf of oman instead of the persian gulf. Attack imminent?
Posted by: davod at July 08, 2008 05:07 PM (llh3A)
9
davod,
I wouldn't think so. I think they're moving that one to support Afghan ops.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at July 08, 2008 05:15 PM (HcgFD)
10
awww...my posts too real for you?
Posted by: j at July 08, 2008 05:29 PM (Lo7Nc)
11
That aside, the bluster is all yours, CY, and betrays your ignorance of why the US simply
wouldn't "leave the Persian Gulf via the Straits of Hormuz if a strike on Iran is imminent":
"[According to] Amy Myers Jaffe, oil geopolitics analyst for the James A. Baker III Institute and Associate Director of the Rice University Energy Program...the United States has pledged to intervene militarily should any of the Gulf countries, including Saudi Arabia, be threatened by another state and the fear of disruption to the oil supply become heightened. This, in turn, led to the pre-positioning of U.S. Navy vessels and equipment in and around the Persian Gulf and Indian Ocean from the late 1970s through today, and at times led to the direct intervention of American forces, most notably during the 1991 Gulf War.
...
"Indeed, protecting the Persian GulfÂ’s oil installations has been an active mission of the U.S. Central Command naval forces as well as coalition forces maritime security operations (MSO) in the region. In a September 19 [2007] interview with the Washington Times, Vice Admiral Kevin J. Cosgriff, the commander of the U.S. Fifth Fleet, said, 'Security in that region writ large, but especially maritime security, is the foundation for regional stability, regional prosperity, and arguably a larger global economic stability, if you think in terms of just safeguarding the free flow of oil and other energy.'"
Link
Posted by: j at July 08, 2008 05:52 PM (Lo7Nc)
12
So, if our ships start to leave the Gulf, the Iranians are going to fire on them?
If they believe those ships leaving is prelude to an attack, they'd be foolish to not fire on them and sink other commercial shipping in the strait.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at July 08, 2008 06:15 PM (Hxw+V)
13
Like Iran firing on our navy for LEAVING the Gulf wouldn't prompt a 400+ House vote for a declaration of war?
Its a no-win situation for the mullahs.
Posted by: Techie at July 08, 2008 06:37 PM (Ddo8X)
14
"If they believe those ships leaving is prelude to an attack, they'd be foolish to not fire on them and
attempt to sink other commercial shipping in the strait."
There . . . fixed it for you.
If the Iranians attempted to attack American -- and now other -- shipping in the straits they would get their heads handed to them. Someone else has already referenced Operation Preying Mantis. Although it has been two decades since then, I doubt the Iranians have forgotten it.
If they have, we will provide a remedial eductation.
And if they did make the attempt, it would solve a
lot of problems. The Iranians know it, too. So they won't even try until January 21, 2009, and then only if John McCain is not President.
But they will bluster. Boy will they bluster. They will even fool some of the more gullible with their bluster, too.
Posted by: Mark L at July 09, 2008 08:22 AM (2X4q0)
15
The Nour Rocket has a range of 200km and can apparently now be mounted to helicopters, extending their range even farther. From the map you supply that seems more than enough to cover the entire Gulf of Oman and even extend a tiny bit out into the Indian ocean proper.
Of course, their real threat is to distribute these and similar missiles to terrorist/militant groups around the world who can take pit shots at any US naval vessels who get close to their shores. I personally have always believed that was the threat behind Hezbollah's use of them in 2006.
Posted by: libarbarian at July 09, 2008 03:59 PM (tCYT+)
16
libarbarian,
The problem with the Noor (a supposed variant of the
Chinese C-802) is that the launching helicopter has to get to within 200 KM -- 125 miles -- of U.S. ships to launch an attack. Considering the U.S.'s unquestioned air superiority and Iran's antiquated Air Force, I think that is rather unlikely.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at July 09, 2008 04:14 PM (HcgFD)
17
CY,
Yes, but it has to be both seen and identified as hostile - not just Iranian but as having hostile intent. The latter depends on several factors including the amount of non-hostile air traffic around into which an attacking copter could try to blend.
I believe during the Iran-Iraq war one of our ships got hit by an Iraqi sunburst missile. The ship saw the plane on radar but didn't respond because it turned around at a "safe" distance - we didn't see it had fired a missile until right before it plowed into the ship. Hell, they might just throw more at us than we can shoot down in time.
Even if we won the total exchange, sinking a single US capital ship would be a big deal. Besides the effect it would have on the Navy brass, almost NOTHING will do more to "embolden" people to buck the US than to see a US capital ship be destroyed. I think it would be worse than 9/11 for the US reputation because that was a surprise terrorist attack on an undefended civilian target whereas sinking a US capital ship, however, would be taking down a potent symbol of US military power. Simply establishing that it can be done (for cost much less than the ship itself) would prove the concept to other nations and probably inspire other nations to imitate it.
I'm not an expert in this and I well know our advantages, but I never felt comfortable listening to people sit around talking about how we would whoop so-and-so's ass, especially when its accompanied by references to fights from 20 years ago without any discussion of how the other party adapted their arsenal and doctrine in the intervening decades.
Posted by: libarbarian at July 09, 2008 05:03 PM (tCYT+)
18
". . .when have we ever ran away from a fight?"
Ooh! Ooh! I know! When Carter and Clinton were President.
Posted by: Mark L at July 10, 2008 08:09 AM (bWB5j)
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