May 31, 2007
Saint Andie isn't calling the Bush Administration Hitler...
...because the phrase War Criminals and Nazis is much more fitting.
Let's begin at the end of Andie "Patron Saint of the Man Pooter" Sullivan's article.
Critics will no doubt say I am accusing the Bush administration of being Hitler. I'm not. There is no comparison between the political system in Germany in 1937 and the U.S. in 2007. What I am reporting is a simple empirical fact: the interrogation methods approved and defended by this president are not new. Many have been used in the past. The very phrase used by the president to describe torture-that-isn't-somehow-torture - "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is a term originally coined by the Nazis. The techniques are indistinguishable. The methods were clearly understood in 1948 as war-crimes. The punishment for them was death.
See he's not calling them Hitler, because, you know Hitler was doing a world a favor by getting rid of those filthy Joos, its the Nazi Party's misguided questioning techniques that Andie wants you to think of when you think of Bush and his Henchmen.
Of course calls for the death of the Bush Administration is nothing new from the party of Love, Peace and Patriotism. If a few thousand more Americans have to die while they're at work in their offices, just so we can ensure the Freedom Fighters are comfortable in their cells, so be it and who the hell are you to question their Patriotism, you nazi bastard.
The part of the document Andie's hoping you didn't read or given the typical Neocon's lack of reading comprehension hoping you wouldn't understand:
1. The sharpened interrogation may only be applied if, on the strength of the preliminary interrogation, it has been ascertained that the prisoner can give information about facts, connections or plans hostile to the state or legal system, but does not want to reveal his knowledge and the latter cannot be obtained by way of inquiries.
2. Under this circumstance, the sharpened interrogation may be applied only against Communists, Marxists, members of the Bible-researcher sect, saboteurs, terrorists, members of the resistance movement,...
3. The sharpened interrogation may not be applied in order to induce confessions about a prisoner's own criminal acts...
Andie would hope you'd skip the part about only applying "sharpened interrogation" to terrorists who
"it has been ascertained that the prisoner can give information about facts, connections or plans hostile to the state or legal system, but does not want to reveal his knowledge and the latter cannot be obtained by way of inquiries" and follow along in his inference that Bush, his Administration and those questioning terrorists are war criminals.
Personally, I place the value of human life above my concerns of safety for a terrorist. But maybe I'm being unrealistic and we should just follow Saint Andie's lead and push for a kinder gentler form of questioning:
I guess Pablo the bikini-clad-pool-boy should question Saint Andie.
Posted by: phin at
10:55 AM
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Hell, if she's doing the interrogating.....
Posted by: Nico at May 31, 2007 11:34 AM (51ePm)
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"The methods were clearly understood in 1948 as war-crimes. The punishment for them was death."
Hmmm. So Sully supports the death penalty for those who use torture - clearly he therefore wants us to make every conceivable effort to enforce this on all those using that recently discovered (and so colorfully illustrated) middle eastern torture manual? Or is it only US citizens who have to follow laws -- the rest of the world clearly having evolved beyond the need for such a crude concept?
All kidding aside, I could at least sympathize with Sully if he were spouting this one sided and self destructive pap in the name of some religion - after all, (some) religions do place principal above all, on grounds that (religiously sanctioned) suffering in the now will result in a greater reward in the afterlife.
But this isn't driven by religious principal - it's a purely secular principal, and which therefore advocates suffering without any sort of recompense other than presumably the clearing of one's own conscience; a conscience in Andy's case that writes off the slowly-being-killed kind of suffering happening to captured servicemen and random civilians in Iraq as "all Bush's fault" in order to free up more quality time for flagellating himself over the (non-lethal) discomfort being inflicted on those in US custody who not only want him dead, but killed by way of either a live burial or having a wall toppled over on him.
Andrew Sullivan is a mindless bitch who will never get around Bush's- and conservatives'- resistance to gay marriage, no matter what size of clue by four reality beats him over the head with. This is the true Andy, the one who lay (semi) dormant prior to the gay marriage thing, until the veneer was torn away exposing him as a silly, immature, posing, over educated dolt.
Posted by: Scott at May 31, 2007 11:41 AM (FAHM2)
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Scott, Andrew didnt say he supports the death penalty for torturers. He is stating an empirical fact. When the Nazis did what we do now, they were executed.
'Or is it only US citizens who have to follow laws -- the rest of the world clearly having evolved beyond the need for such a crude concept?'
Try it the other way - the US is evolved to a point further than the terrorists. We rely on law - that's what makes us better than them, and we must preserve it.
The rest of your post was kind of gibberish, unfortunately, but that's the way it goes!
Posted by: Mick at May 31, 2007 01:30 PM (L8Iin)
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There is only one name for an American that, when faced with an enemy that hates the concept of a nation based on humane principals and the rule of law, immediately sacrifices those principals and rule of law for a temporary (and false) sense of security: "COWARD"
Posted by: Jim at May 31, 2007 01:31 PM (vmNEB)
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Mick,
Sadly your version of "evolution" would still have planes being used as weapons against our
innocent citizens.
A quick question for you.
Hypothetically you have a terrorist in custody and know he has knowledge of an attack that will take place within the next twenty-four hours would you rather:
A) Use what Saint Andie calls torture and leave a terrorist with recurring nightmares of a woman seeing him naked. or
B) Have another attack against our citizens.
We've already determined, from the article Andie sited, that these guys aren't giving up the information when being asked nicely. You're under a deadline. Its A or B, nightmares or thousands of American Kids who won't see their mom or dad ever again.
Posted by: phin at May 31, 2007 02:01 PM (CQcil)
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I don't know why the Republicans are so keen on torture that every one of the candidates except the one who knows the most about the subject, McCain, played
quien es mas macho during the debates.
The truth is, torture doesn't work.
If you don't believe me, Google Marine Major Sherwood F. Moran's piece on interrogation, the paper that is required reading for all Marine interrogators.
If the classics don't move you, read Mark Bowden's article in last month's Atlantic on how Task Force 145 cracked Abu Musab al-Zarqawi’s inner circle—without resorting to torture—and took out al-Qaeda’s main man in Iraq.
If you don't have time to read both articles, let me summarize:
Torture does not work. Being a decent human being does work.
With torture we sacrifice the moral high ground, our founding principles and the humanity of the interrogator and what do we get in return? Bupkiss.
So why are all these GOP candidates so eager to endorse a tactic that doesn't work? My guess is it's because it's an easy and cheap way to look tough, especially if you've never served.
But that's just a guess.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at May 31, 2007 02:03 PM (kxecL)
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'Enhanced Interrogation' sure got those Fort Dix six caught. Oh wait, it was all those super duper provisions of the patriot (sic) act. No? Wait, it was some dude at Wal-Mart who thought there was something odd about the 'training videos'. I'm sure glad the constitution was trampled to find those Fort Dix Six! oh wait...
Posted by: Mark at May 31, 2007 02:13 PM (zwNmS)
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Would it be worth waterboarding someone to stop NYC from being vaporized by a nuclear bomb? I think so.
"The truth is, torture doesn't work."
"If you don't have time to read both articles, let me summarize: Torture does not work. Being a decent human being does work."
Let me get this straight, asking a terrorist really nicely will work better than torture? Does it work when time is of the essence? Maybe I'm wrong, but didn't we water-board Khalid Shaikh Mohammed? Then didnt he spill the beans about a whole bunch of stuff?
Posted by: jbiccum at May 31, 2007 02:58 PM (Rd4s4)
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jbiccum,
Hey, like I said, don't believe me. Believe guys who have been there and done that.
I tend to trust people with real, hands-on experience and results.
But if you think the blow-dried Mitt Romney knows more about torture than John McCain, I guess we'll just have to disagree.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at May 31, 2007 03:06 PM (kxecL)
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"'Enhanced Interrogation' sure got those Fort Dix six caught. Oh wait, it was all those super duper provisions of the patriot (sic) act. No? Wait, it was some dude at Wal-Mart who thought there was something odd about the 'training videos'. I'm sure glad the constitution was trampled to find those Fort Dix Six! oh wait..."
Clearly it isnt the answer in every situation, but it does have its place. What if your mother or someone else close to you was saved because some low life jihadist was water-boarded, would you still be sarcastic about it?
Understand this is the most dangerous foe I think we have ever faced. They dont have a country of origin. They dont wear uniforms. They will kill anyone in any number to further their cause.
Honestly, I dont think waterboarding is torture. Nor do I think underwear on the head is torture. To me torture is a blow torch and a pair of pliers, or maybe cutting someones genitals off. That stuff is just plain wrong, and our enemies do it everyday.
Posted by: jbiccum at May 31, 2007 03:12 PM (Rd4s4)
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"But if you think the blow-dried Mitt Romney knows more about torture than John McCain, I guess we'll just have to disagree."
No man, I agree with you completely. I just don't think underwear on the head or waterboarding is anything close to what John McCain went through. Do you agree with that?
Posted by: jbiccum at May 31, 2007 03:15 PM (Rd4s4)
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jbiccum,
Yes, I agree with you on that. But this torture lite doesn't get us anything except the disgust of the rest of the world.
I did a quick search on KSM to see if maybe I'm wrong and waterboarding really worked in his case. I found a lot of sources you would probably dismiss that said it didn't and the most objective source I could find was Newsweek. Here's part of what they said:
"In recent interviews with NEWSWEEK reporters, U.S. intelligence officers say they have little—if any—evidence that useful intelligence has been obtained using techniques generally understood to be torture. It is clear, for instance, that Al Qaeda operations chief Khalid Shaikh Mohammed (KSM) was subjected to harsh interrogation techniques, including waterboarding. His interrogators even threatened, à la Jack Bauer, to go after his family. (KSM reportedly shrugged off the threat to his family—he would meet them in heaven, he said.) KSM did reveal some names and plots. But they haven’t panned out as all that threatening: one such plot was a plan by an Al Qaeda operative to cut down the Brooklyn Bridge—with a blow torch. Intelligence officials could never be sure if KSM was holding back on more serious threats, or just didn’t know of any.
So I still don't see why we should give up the moral high ground and our principles for a technique that doesn't work. Don't get me wrong. I'm no bleeding heart, and I have more than passing acquaintance with the intelligence community, and if I thought it did work I'd give it the green light.
But all the evidence I've seen says it doesn't. I know an MI officer in Iraq right now and he should be home soon. We've talked about this before and he's tougher than I am (hell, he's tougher than 100 men I know) but he wasn't convinced either, and this was right after Abu Ghraib, a place he was very familiar with. His bottom line? He wanted his men to have the license to use harsh interrogation techniques, but he saw that the blowback from Abu Ghraib probably wasn't worth it.
I still have an open mind on this, but I'm disgusted by the macho posturing of guys who've never walked the walk.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at May 31, 2007 03:30 PM (kxecL)
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jbiccum -
Yes, waterboarding is torture. So is not being allowed to sleep for weeks on end and being nearly frozen to death. These are all techniques created and tested by our most brutal enemies (Stalin's Gulag, Nazi Germany, North Vietnam, etc), and is now being endorsed by the Republican party and our President.
The choice you give of "ask nicely", or tortue, is a false choice. As suggested to you by another individual, try doing a little research about interrogation by the people that actually do it for a living. Nearly every single one will tell you that these "enhanced interrogation techniques" either fail, or send you down the wrong path.
I would much rather die free in a nation of principals, rule of law and a higher moral code than our barbaric enemies, than sacrifice the basic principals this country was founded on.
Posted by: Jim at May 31, 2007 03:34 PM (vmNEB)
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Now we're back to if you have never been a torturer you have no right to talk about torture.
Posted by: davod at May 31, 2007 03:38 PM (RdotW)
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davod,
Now we're back to if you have never been a torturer you have no right to talk about torture.
No, not at all.
But you can listen to people who are interrogators, and read about cases where a technique either worked or it didn't.
It's too easy to swagger and talk tough, that's all I'm saying.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at May 31, 2007 03:50 PM (kxecL)
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I want to play!
Hypothetically you have a prisoner in custody and know he has knowledge of an attack that will take place within the next twenty-four hours. You decide to torture him to get this information. In the course of employing your favorite
enhanced interrogation techniques, the prisoner gives up his information, but dies shortly thereafter.
You alert your security forces to stop the attack. They report back that there was no attack planned after all.
Do you:
A) Explain to his Widow and kids that "in order to make omelettes, sometimes you have to break a few eggs," give them a few hundred bucks for their trouble and send them on their way.
B) Figure the idiot had it coming. He wouldn't have been in detention if he wasn't guilty.
C) Say to yourself, "the only good sand ------ is a dead sand ------."
Posted by: Big Jim at May 31, 2007 05:13 PM (O6m74)
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"The rest of your post was kind of gibberish, unfortunately, but that's the way it goes!"
Mick, I do feel badly for you, but please don't blame your lack of reading comprehension on me - Ritalin will do wonders for your ADHD, just ask your mum to run you down to the doctor's for a prescription (service provided pro bono, BTW - no need to thank me).
(Although from the entirety of your post it looks like you'll also need to graduate from high school to understand the words with more than two syllables now that you're able to maintain attention span for longer than a paragraph, but that's the way it goes!)
Posted by: Scott at May 31, 2007 06:54 PM (FAHM2)
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Phin,
Sure I've heard similar versions of that story.
And even though that horrific little scenario never actually occurs in, um, reality, for the sake of arguement I'll accept your hypothetical
construct here provided you allow me to pick the method of tortu ... interrogation.
Fair enough?
So instead of underwear and waterboarding--this would be an attack that endangered the lives of thousands, who knows, maybe millions of innocent American lives--let's just posit that we are certain we can break this terrorist by raping his child in front of him. Sure, that's brutal, but weighed up against the lives of millions, why not?
We could drill his teeth without anesthetic. Have him drawn and quartered. Pour molten lead onto various parts of his body.
Honestly, I can't think of any action toward this terrorist scum whatsoever, however vile, unthinkable, or un-American, that couldn't easily be justified by this scenario. Can you?
But wait, that couldn't be why this scenario is being offered up? Could it?
Posted by: Big K at May 31, 2007 07:04 PM (UGN3h)
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Big K,
I haven't seen any of the torture techniques used by Americans that cause harm to anyone other than the terrorist.
As a parent I'd never go along with the raping of anyone's child or punishing and innocent to get information from someone else. There are lines that can never be crossed. As for the other methods that would inflict harm on said terrorist and in return save the lives of innocents, or even just one, you're damned skippy.
I have no problem with it at all and wouldn't have a problem sleeping at night.
How can I justify such actions? I also support the death penalty and have no problem with it being proactive enforcement.
As I'd mentioned, some lines should never be crossed. Yet if it takes killing a terrorist to prevent them from killing others I have trouble differentiating between that and a police officer killing someone who has brandished a weapon and is seriously threatening to kill a hostage.
Given the choice between one of the victims of 9/11 and Mohamed Atta being maimed or killed, I'd choose the wellbeing of the victim every time.
The choice of sacrificing an innocent person isn't at play, nor was it ever discussed. However, sacrificing a terrorist, to save the lives of innocents was. And to be blunt, No I can't think of any action against a terrorist's person that that would be off limits if they pose an
imminent threat.
Call me uncivilized if you want, but at least I'm honest about it.
Posted by: phin at May 31, 2007 07:32 PM (YgMQV)
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phin,
You say this isn't about the choice of sacrificing an innocent person, but it is. Last year we released two Afghanis from Gitmo who were guilty of nothing more than telling a joke about Clinton, a joke that was misunderstood by our interrogators as being a threat on the a president.
I won't make a joke about certain intel ops being absent a sense of humor, but I could.
So, indeed, we are talking about innocent people being swept up and tortured, for information they don't have. If you have any sense of empathy, put yourself in that Afghani jokester's sandals. Wouldn't you tell them anything to stop the waterboarding? Thank God, I've never been in that position, but I'm not sure how long I could hold out. I'd tell them something. Anything. I'd make stuff up.
Have you ever been jolted by a field phone? I have. Every GI who has been bored, with a field phone, has put their fingers on the terminals and given it a twist, just to feel what it feels like. I don't know how I could hold up if those terminals were attached to my huevos and there was an eager phin on the crank, ready to give it a whirl. And don't tell me we haven't done that because I know better.
I know we've stood kids on hand grenades, on the spoon, the pin pulled, and questioned their familes. Their mothers and fathers knowing that if the kid gets tired, which she will, she'll slip off that frag and Ka-Boom, she's toast, and they don't give it up because they don't know. That's real world, phin, not hypotheticals like a suitcase nuke and Jack Bauer has 24 to get 'er done. That's what we, the USA, have done in Central America.
So, there are those in intel who have gone on record, with results, saying that torture doesn't work.
Do you feel so confident now about our use of waterboarding? Are you so sure that as a nation we should be doing these things in your name and my name?
Because I'm not. I'm not.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at May 31, 2007 10:28 PM (tk0b2)
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Have any of you guys done any serious research into how waterboarding is done and why it's been used since at least the Inquisition? Why are you convinced it's just "torture lite"?
I'll repeat an offer -- I'll pay $10K to anyone here who will endure 60 minutes of this at my hands.
Posted by: Random Guy at May 31, 2007 10:40 PM (X1Llr)
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before anyone talks about whether or not waterboarding is torture, I suggest they see a video of it
here.
This reporter is an ex-Navy SEAL and as such had endured waterboarding before as part of his training in resistance to torture techniques. I think all the Keyboard Kommandos need to watch this before they try to claim that it isn't 'torture'.
And it's only about 7 minutes, not 60, before he has to tell them to stop.
Posted by: nina at June 01, 2007 06:12 AM (yvKBl)
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I agree 100% waterboarding is torture. I've seen the videos / done the research and watched men way better than me crack just a couple of minutes into it. I'm not saying it isn't.
I am however, and will go to my grave, with the opinion that we shouldn't take the methods we've currently improved off the table if they're being used on someone who has information and is a member of a terrorist organization.
I too David remember the guys we released from Gitmo and its a shame and hopefully they weren't tortured. Now if they were joking while they were setting an IDE it's one thing. But yeah, I'd be in a world of trouble if a Clinton joke earned a trip to Gitmo.
As I've stated, I'm not for the blanket approval of torture techniques. However, if we catch someone sneaking across the border with half the fixings of a bomb to wipe out a couple of hundred people I don't think we should tie the hands of our interrogators.
Now the same goes in Iraq. If we catch someone in the process of planting an IDE we can be 99% certain that they're not trying to improve traffic flow and there's a good chance they'll have information that could lead to other bombs or terrorists.
Granted they may not crack, however there is a chance they will.
Yes, if somebody is getting ready to light up my 'nads I'll tell them I'm the Queen of England if thats what they want, but a pop or two I'd probably tell them if I knew were the other IDE's were planted and I damned sure wouldn't lie if they were going to get popped for giving wrong information.
Sorry, I'm a pig headed bastard, admittedly. But if there's a chance we'll get information from somebody who is a
KNOWN terrorist that will save the lives of one innocent Iraqi we should go for it. I don't give a damn if the guy has nightmares and pees on himself every time it thunders.
Terrorists, from all organizations IRA, FARC, Militant White Supremacists, Islamic, I don't care. They're human only by birth, other than that they're animals. I won't place value on someone's life who is willing to kill a room full of toddlers to advance their cause. Okay maybe they're worth the bullet and power it'd take to send them to hell, but that's about it.
Posted by: phin at June 01, 2007 08:26 AM (CQcil)
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How can waterboarding someone be considered "sacrificing" them? I'm pretty sure nobody has ever died or even had any lasting damage from it. I could be wrong, but I think when it is done there are trained medical staff standing by at all times.
Posted by: jbiccum at June 01, 2007 04:59 PM (Rd4s4)
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I'm pretty sure nobody has ever died or even had any lasting damage from it.
On what do you base that? Wishful thinking? Why wouldn't someone have lasting psychological damage from being tortured?
Posted by: Random Guy at June 01, 2007 09:02 PM (/erTa)
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but I think when it is done there are trained medical staff standing by at all times.
jbiccum,
What do you think this is, summer camp? Trained medical people standing by? You have got to be kidding. What? Do you think this is some kind of frat prank? I have news for you, when the CIA swoops in and hauls your butt to Yemen in an extraordinary rendition, you can give up all thoughts of civilized behavior. Trained medical staff. Sure. And then they give you milk and cookies and a Batman band-aid.
And phinn,
That's my point here. We're not talking about a squad taking a guy who caught burying an IED. That s**t's going down no matter what the ROE say.
No, I'm talking about the President of the United States saying that these techniques are legal. Do you comprehend the can of worms that opens up? Do you fully understand what that means about our adherence to the Geneva Accords?
This makes us a lawless nation, a rogue among the civilized nations. It's one thing to turn a blind eye when circumstances dictate, let the chips fall, it's a whole other ball game when you codify these techniques. Because when you do that, we cross into some mighty dark territory.
Front line, stuff happens. With POWs, there are rules. McCain understands that. The other GOP candidates don't. Now ask yourself what's different between McCain and the other candidates.
Yeah, that's right.
If that doesn't make you second guess your admittedly understandable impulses, then I don't know what will.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 01, 2007 09:35 PM (tk0b2)
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It's one thing to turn a blind eye when circumstances dictate, let the chips fall, it's a whole other ball game when you codify these techniques.
This is the key point, and thank you David for making it. All of the Jack Bauer scenarios that people trot out are irrelevant. The truth is that in 99.9999% of the cases there's very little reason to believe that this guy who you picked up, who probably is a bad character by any standard, is about to kill a million people, or a thousand, or a hundred, or even 10 people. And even if he is, how do you know that he knows anything at all? And if he doesn't, what of your morality when you torture him for 72 hours? The difference is an official policy vs an extreme, and entirely hypothetical, scenario.
I don't draw parallels with Nazis lightly, believe me. But I can assure you that the "good German" working for the SD in the Third Reich was making the exact calculation the apologists for American torture are making today.
On a last point, I believe that when you claim that you're working on the side of the good guys, that you actually ACT on the side of the good guys. If you don't understand this point then I probably should take my business elsewhere. (Which you might actually appreciate!)
Posted by: Random Guy at June 02, 2007 01:47 AM (K1Emm)
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Sometimes I like to cover myself in cheese-whiz and sing I'm a little tea pot.
-- comment edited by phin, because Rasaposa has potty mouth and can't be civil.
Posted by: Rasaposa at June 02, 2007 07:39 AM (iM34J)
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This reporter is an ex-Navy SEAL and as such had endured waterboarding before as part of his training in resistance to torture techniques.
If its OK to use on our own people in training, why is it not OK to use elsewhere?
Jimmy Carter gassed me with chemical weapons at Ft. Dix back in the 70's!
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 02, 2007 08:15 AM (3hI9m)
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"Andie would hope you'd skip the part about only applying "sharpened interrogation" to terrorists who "it has been ascertained that the prisoner can give information about facts, connections or plans hostile to the state or legal system, but does not want to reveal his knowledge and the latter cannot be obtained by way of inquiries" and follow along in his inference that Bush, his Administration and those questioning terrorists are war criminals." - Phin
Actually Phin, Sulivan specifically highlights the part of the memo that you suggest he doesn't want the readers to notice:
"As you can see from the Gestapo memo, moreover, the Nazis were adamant that their "enhanced interrogation techniques" would be carefully restricted and controlled, monitored by an elite professional staff, of the kind recommended by Charles Krauthammer, and strictly reserved for certain categories of prisoner. At least, that was the original plan."
Posted by: Cameron G at June 02, 2007 02:01 PM (KEFtG)
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May 29, 2007
Hummelgate, a food shortage in Iraq?
Alternatively Titled: How can Bobby Flay challenge troops to a throwdown in the Mojave Desert when the US Military can't get civilians in Iraq the ingredients they need to "toss salad". Brevity is key, and all that.
While you were lounging around sipping mojitos and dreaming of replacing the Rosie "Patron Saint of Truther Conspiracy Theorists" O'Donnell on the view ace was all over the fake, but real, but accurate food shortage memo reported by our friends and neighbors at the WaPo. The Flopped Aced one has a pretty good synopsis of the entire escapade.
Being the good little storm troopers that we are we're wondering why the ever military friendly main stream media reporters aren't receiving their daily allotments of syrup or jelly. Which, if you're a deviant and I know you probably are, you'd know is critical for tossing salad (a search not safe for work, easily sickened or pure of heart, but if you're kinky go for it).
There really are lots of questions that go unanswered here.
- What type of knucklehead uses Flappy the flag waving wonder eagle instead of the official emblem / seal / logo of the US Embassy in Iraq.
- Who put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp? Who put the ram in the ram-a-lam-a-ding-dong? Who put the bop in the bop sh-bop sh-bop?
- Why did Parvaz Khan a Human Resources Officer create a PDF of the "document"?
- Is Gleen Ellers Thomas Francis Nancy Greenwald behind this whole shenanigan? He was quoted by congress or the senate or something
I guess it is kind of hard to find a decent US Embassy Logo to use, I mean it was on the second page google's image search.
On the upside we've got Romentum and if anybody will get to the truth behind this whole fire melting steel thingy Ron Paul will and damn it, he'll get put an end to this illegal war we're waging, pronto.
This message was approved by Flappy the salad tossing wonder eagle.
He likes syrup.
And don't blame me or Flappy if you're disturbed after googling "toss my salad", you were warned.
In desperate woman news. It looks like Jessica Simpson and that no talent hack John Mayer are done, over, fineto. If you're not familiar with John Mayer, he's the guy that sang a song about my body being a wonderland. If you're not familiar with Jessica Simpson:
She used to be perfect.
For those of you upset by the lack of "hard-hitting" "serious" reporting around here, well, I'll start as soon as the WaPo and ABC do. Which means you'll all be welcoming CY's return week's wend.
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Awww, the poor widdle diplomats can't get fresh fixin's for their salad bar.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at May 30, 2007 08:04 AM (oC8nQ)
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May 25, 2007
Iranian EFP Proxy Captured In Sadr City
Don't you just love it when a plan
comes together?
US and Iraqi forces captured an Iraqi militant accused of "acting as a proxy for an Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps officer" on Friday after a fierce gunbattle, the military said.
The joint snatch squad called in an air strike after coming under fire during a raid on the hideout of an alleged weapons smuggling gang in the notorious Sadr City district, a Shiite militia bastion in east Baghdad.
[snip]
EFPs are roadside bombs designed to fire a chunk of molten metal through the toughest armour plating. The United States accuses Tehran of smuggling hundreds of the devices to Iraq, where they have killed scores of US troops.
"Intelligence reports indicate the individual targeted is suspected of having direct ties to the leader of the EFP network as well as acting as a proxy for an Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps officer," the statement said.
American forces previously captured a suspect in the Iranian EFP smuggling network in late March. I wonder how much longer it will be until we capture known Iranian Quds Force or Revolutionary Guard Corps officers... other than the ones we've already captured, of course.
The Iranian EFPs are the most deadly threat to U.S. heavy vehicles; indigenously-made Iraqi EFPs consistently fail against U.S. armor.
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May 24, 2007
Funk You
Joe Klein, Keith Olbermann, Brian Ross, etc., I think this is
directed at you:
"Hello media, do you know you indirectly kill American soldiers every day? You inspire and report the enemy's objective every day. You are the enemy's greatest weapon. The enemy cannot beat us on the battlefield so all he does is try to wreak enough havoc and have you report it every day. With you and the enemy using each other, you continually break the will of the American public and American government.
"We go out daily and bust and kill the enemy, uncover and destroy huge weapons caches and continue to establish infrastructure. So daily we put a whoopin on the enemy, but all the enemy has to do is turn on the TV and get re-inspired. He gets to see his daily roadside bomb, truck bomb, suicide bomber or mortar attack. He doesn't see any accomplishments of the U.S. military (FOX, you're not exempt, you suck also).
[snip]
"Media, we know you hate the George Bush administration, but report both sides, not just your one-sided agenda. You have got to realize how you are continually motivating every extremist, jihadist and terrorist to continue their resolve to kill American soldiers."
That refrain should be familiar to you by now, as similar thoughts are echoed across the blogosphere and in conversations with active-duty American servicemen almost universally.
But Funk isn't done. He doesn't leave out those of you who say you "support the troops, but not the war."
"We're treading water," the Ames man told the people closest to him. "We continue to kick butt on missions and take care of each other, even though we know the American public and government DOES NOT stand behind us.
Ohhhh, they all say they support us, but how can you support me (the soldier) if you don't support my mission or my objectives. We watch the news over here. Every time we turn it on we see the American public and Hollywood conducting protests and rallies against our 'illegal occupation' of Iraq."
Feel ashamed yet? Probably not. After all, he's just one soldier, and he's no Jesse MacBeth.
(H/T Blackfive)
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1
I'm sympathetic to this, I am, but I couldn't disagree more. And shame? Tell it to the people who have screwed the pooch on this war that's made this prolonged occupation necessary.
How can I support the troops and not support their mission? Easy. I was one of the troops, and there were several missions I was involved in that I didn't think were, in the long term, the right policy. But I went, I did my best, and I came home to resume my life as a citizen.
My great-great-grandfather was the color bearer for the 42nd Georgia Infantry and although I'm proud of his heroism and honorable service, I think the Confederacy was a mistake.
The common foot soldier of the Wehrmacht fought bravely and tenaciously, and from a military perspective, I can honor his service and courage in battle, but no one can say he fought for a noble cause.
So it is possible to support soldiers and oppose the war. In fact, I make the argument that wanting to bring these soldiers home and not wanting to squander their service in a mission that is unsupported in tangible ways by this administration,
is backing our troops and their families.
Those who make this statement, in my opinion, are swallowing the hard right's line as the GOP scrambles to find a scapegoat for their failures and the media and the left are awfully convenient bogeymen.
I often wonder when it is OK to protest our government's decision to go to war. If Americans listened to you and other well-meaning people, we couldn't speak before we sent troops, because that's undermining the mission before it begins, and we can't say anything during the conflict because that's not supporting the troops, and we can't say anything after the men come home because that's just pointing fingers and living in the past.
So, if you disagree about a war, when can you speak?
I find it disingenuous to hear people like Rush Limbaugh, John Boehner and other voices of the right make this claim. I remember what Rush said during Kosovo, and I've read about the legislation Boehner proposed, calling for a timetable to pull out of Somalia. Politics over principle, as usual. There's your shame.
So, while I am sympathetic, I believe soldiers like this one are being ill-used by people much more concerned with playing CYA than they are in actually conducting this war in a way that might lead us to victory.
The soldiers, as always, are doing their jobs. It's the people who were supposed to rebuild Iraq and instead used it to enrich themselves or were too inexperienced or incompetent to do their jobs that have let our troops down and inspired our enemies, not the voices of outrage on the left.
Far too many people in America seem to think that liberty and love of country means shutting up. Nothing could be further from the truth. This nation was built on dissent and since men were brave enough to die for my right to speak freely, I'm at least brave enough to use that right.
That's one reason I attach my name to every one of these comments.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at May 24, 2007 03:51 PM (kxecL)
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Well said, David. It boggles the mind to think that "supporting the troops" means keeping them indefinitely in an intractable sectarian conflict, being killed at a clip of 100 a month, while the idea of redeploying our forces out of Iraq, which will SAVE hundreds if not thousands of our soldiers' lives, would somehow be doing them a disservice.
Posted by: Arbotreeist at May 24, 2007 06:04 PM (N8M1W)
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thank you for your comments. you sound like a realist with a true grasp of what is and is not happening in this war. thank you for your service to our country, on the battlefield and back home.
Posted by: miss lou at May 24, 2007 06:42 PM (hL5HB)
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Well said, David.
CY, if you really want people to know about when the troops are kicking butt over in Iraq, write about it more. You seem to have plenty of military connections and you've had a good smattering of stories in this vein in the past. So let's bulk up the coverage. Bloggers are supposedly the new journalists, so instead of playing media of watchdog on the Washington Post — which 1,324,308,665 other blogs already do on a daily basis — do some reporting and report on the troops over in Iraq.
Or I'll put it this way: I really don't care if the media mis-reported what model of gun some psychopath in Nebraskahoma used to kill some people. I want to read the stories you claim the MSM is ignoring.
Posted by: dmarek at May 24, 2007 07:28 PM (p+Ao3)
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I'm sorry, David, but you're dead wrong. To oppose the mission is indeed to oppose the soldier. I do not believe you have ever been a soldier yourself. The internet protects you; you can say what you like.
You are indeed ill-using this soldier, and the soldiers in my family who are fighting honorably. The soldiers in the Wehrmacht did NOT fight honorably when they fought for that ignoble cause. If your claim is that it is honorable for soldiers to shut up and do the wrong thing because they are ordered to, you have a very strange idea of honor.
Yes, use the term "hard-right" and buzz-names like Rush Limbaugh to stir up hatred against our troops, knowing full well that that is what you are doing. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
You have every right to come out against the war and our troops, and say so every chance you get.
If you were honest, you would stop lying. You are lobbying against our troops, and against all that is decent. You should be ashamed of yourself, but I doubt you have even that much humanity.
Patricia K. Larkins
Posted by: Trish at May 24, 2007 08:15 PM (l8/v1)
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Yes, use the term "hard-right" and buzz-names like Rush Limbaugh to stir up hatred against our troops, knowing full well that that is what you are doing.
Patricia,
It would be hard for me to hate the troops as I have two nephews in theater right now. One is a career officer, a Major, with a Stryker Brigade. The other is a surgeon with an FST.
I hear the anger in your voice, and I understand. I believe your anger is misplaced, but that's OK. If it makes you feel better to think I'm working against our soldiers, I think that's sad, but understandable.
But I am not lying. I just have a different idea of what it means to be an American.
You can assume I haven't served, and that's your right. But I've given you no reason to doubt me.
I know this won't help, but I'll trot out my bona fides anyway. I enlisted in 1969, was trained at Fort Monmouth, Fort Huachuca and Fort Bragg. That should give you a pretty good idea what my MOS was. I spent the next two years in Central and South America. Had I studied French, my service would have been far different. So it goes.
My brother served as an officer in Vietnam. My sister was a career officer, retired a few years ago as a Major. She's a veteran of Desert Storm and proudly displayed her airborne and air assault wings.
My father was an officer in WWII in the Pacific, his brother was KIA on Iwo, with the Fifth Marines.
My wife's father was with the 82nd, dropped into Normandy in the early hours of June 6. Her grandfather was an aide to Omar Bradley, a graduate of West Point and her brother is an Annapolis grad and a Navy flier out of Pensacola.
I was short-listed to write Tommy Franks' memoirs, but did not get the contract. It was an high compliment to be considered.
It is my pleasure to shoot competitively with graduates of the three military academies every year, the only enlisted man extended that honor.
No one has a greater respect for the warrior profession than I do.
But I don't have a lot of respect for politicians, especially those politicians who ducked service when their time came, and I have no respect for a party that thinks so little of a soldier's sacrifice that they put a Purple Heart on a band-aid and work behind the scenes to cut our soldiers' combat pay.
So, you and I may disagree about whther I can support our troops and still oppose this war, but don't ever doubt my loyalty, patriotism or sincerity.
We have a difference of opinion. As Mark Twain said, that's what makes a horse race.
I hope your family members come home soon and whole. And thank you for your sacrifice. Being a military family is never easy.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at May 24, 2007 09:50 PM (tk0b2)
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David T.,
You should really have your own blog. Your comments are way too long and obscure to be worth reading most of the time. If you want to write lengthy diatribes, maybe CY would let you guest blog. Other than that - get your own!
You talk about average americans and what they believe. But how hard is it to gauge those reactions when all you see in MSM is how terrible the war is. ALL YOU SEE. Show me how the majors portray it any differently than that. Yet we know that the whole story is not out there where "average" people read it. And you are disingenuous every single time you say it. You know this is true, but you will never admit it. So show me MSM stories about the progress in infrastructure, about burgeoning economy, jobs, schools, security in many areas, etc. etc. etc. You can't and you know it. And I guarantee for every one you can find, I can show 50 from that day that are negative to the US. Put up.....
Posted by: Specter at May 24, 2007 10:04 PM (ybfXM)
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You talk about average americans and what they believe.
Specter,
No, I don't. I talk about what I see and what I believe. I would never presume to talk for anyone else.
And yes, I agree with you that too much of the media focus on the bad things happening. I'd like to hear more of the positive side of the soldiers' accomplishments. Believe it or not, I want us to succeed in Iraq. Nothing would make me happier.
But it's tough when reporters can't get out into Baghdad because it's too dangerous. How many journalists have died covering this conflict, 60-70? That tells you something right there.
I want to be wrong about this war, but everything I read, and I read widely, not just the MSM, tells me that the Bush administration has made our situation worse than before, that their incompetence has made us less safe than before.
But I put my hope in Petraeus, the man who literally wrote the book on counter-insurgency. I'm hoping he can figure this out.
As for my writing long posts, I'm a novelist, I tend to write long. Sorry. But you obviously don't read them so why do you care?
And I do have my own blog, but it covers far different subjects than this blog.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at May 24, 2007 10:34 PM (tk0b2)
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In WWII what did the media report?
How many enemies we killed that day.
In the Iraq War what did the media report?
How many of our soldiers died that day.
Nuff said.
Posted by: jbiccum at May 25, 2007 04:45 PM (NiTuu)
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In WWII what did the media report?
The media weren't working for the enemy in WWII.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at May 25, 2007 09:45 PM (VgTsb)
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The media weren't working for the enemy in WWII.
PA, please read about the Dolchstosslegende. Just like in Weimar Germany, all the socialists back home are to blame for your defeat. (To make the circle complete, you should throw some blame toward Jews, too. There's a good right-wing tradition for that kind of thing.)
Posted by: Random Guy at May 26, 2007 03:55 AM (K1Emm)
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Random Guy, of course Socialists are right-wing, as in National Socialists. Moron.
Posted by: SDN at May 26, 2007 09:36 PM (hd9Lv)
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Bush's Wars are Safer For the Military that Clinton's Peace?
It sure sounds odd but that is what the numbers seem to show in regard to military fatalities during the current and most recent administrations.
I'd be interested in countering arguments, should anyone feel like making them, though the figures provided may make a certain amount of sense in one context.
Anecdotally speaking, I recall that the various sports teams at my high school seemed to take more injuries in scrimmages than in games. Coaches often attributed such injuries to a lack of focus and less than full intensity on the part of the injured when other athletes were scrimmaging at "game speed."
Could it be that like athletes, soldiers take their "games"--real combat--more seriously than they do their practices, and are therefore perhaps more prone towards dangerous mistakes during peacetime drills and exercises than in combat?
David Petraeus, our commanding general in Iraq, could be a microcosm of these phenomena in his own right. Never wounded in war, he was shot in the chest in 1991 during a training exercise when a soldier tripped and his weapon discharged, nearly costing Petraeus his life.
IÂ’ve got no easy answers here, and would love to get your opinions in the comments.
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Our troops are safer
Were on a historic realinement in the ME
Punchline --- the traitor leftys want to LEAVE!!!
WHY???? Do they want the standard of living to fall when we lose are oil? They cant stand to say Bush is a hero? MAYBE THEY LIKE TO LOSE
Think about it leftys
Posted by: Karl at May 24, 2007 11:15 AM (e+LpB)
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It could be a case that, being deployed, soldiers and Marines aren't back home getting killed via DUIs (their own and others) and other stupid stuff that normally happens around bored members of the military.
What I haven't really seen is anything that has broken it down by "cause of death" - how
aren't soldiers dying currently is something I think I would find interesting.
Posted by: SGT Jeff (USAR) at May 24, 2007 11:17 AM (yiMNP)
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SGT Jeff- Murdoc actually breaks down the numbers from the Defense Dept.
http://www.murdoconline.net/pics/Death_Rates.pdf
The point of the post is not to say that there are less fatalities today- (adding in all fatalities puts Bush slightly higher than Clinton- lower than Reagan)- but that this war has been fought brilliantly when you compare fatalities to other US wars and with what has been accomplished.
Posted by: Jim Hoft at May 24, 2007 11:37 AM (mLkAh)
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The numbers are for different things: it's total military deaths for the Clinton era and battlefield deaths for Bush.
These aren't comparable sets. (someone else on Gateway Pundit's site finds the comparable numbers and prorates out the Bush figures, and gets something like 11k deaths to Clinton's 7.5k.)
Posted by: jpe at May 24, 2007 01:18 PM (+rmhC)
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The DOD has active duty deaths (combat and otherwise) through 2006
available here (pdf). The 2006 numbers are preliminary and subject to change. This is only fatalities of course, and non-fatal casualty numbers are much higher, so to call these years "safer," even if the fatality numbers supported it, would not be accurate. Less deadly maybe, but not safer. In any case, here are the numbers;
1993 - 1213
1994 - 1075
1995 - 1040
1996 - 974
1997 - 817
1998 - 827
1999 - 796
2000 - 758
Total - 7500
2001 - 891
2002 - 999
2003 - 1228
2004 - 1874
2005 - 1942
2006 - 1858
Total - 8792
That's an average of 937.5 per year during the Clinton years, and 1465.33 per year during the Bush years through '06.
Posted by: mantis at May 24, 2007 03:07 PM (ONTnT)
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I hate to drop an "
amnesty bill" in the punch bowl here -- The Lord knows I'm no Clinton fan -- but we didn't just stop suffering non-combat fatalities when we invaded Afghanistan. As much as I hate to call attention to it I think the linked Gateway Pundit post is comparing apples to oranges. I added an excerpt and link to my
2007.05.24 Iraq/Iran/Afghanistan/"The media sucks" Roundup
Posted by: Bill Faith at May 24, 2007 03:25 PM (n7SaI)
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Petraeus also suffered a broken leg on a parachute jump.
Posted by: Roy Lofquist at May 25, 2007 01:14 AM (0pd9m)
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Have to agree with Mr. Hoft...This war has been fought brilliantly and extraordinarily well. When the numbers of KIA are measured against each war in the same 5 year time span-no President has ever seen such low numbers-ever. Just think back to one week in Viet Nam, think it was during the TET Offensive and over 7,500 US soldiers died. That is almost double the number we have lost in 5 years in the ME under the G.W. Bush leadership.
Obviously the President isn't the training officer but pretty clearly his appointments have been in the interest of the troops not the politicians judging by the splendid and easily compared results to just one previous war. Were you to look at the numbers from the Civil War, WWI, WWII and Korea-it is truly mind-boggling and borders on the near miraculous.
IMHO, no president has been faced with as many catastrophes as this President: 9-11, near total wipe out of our economy (you can't talk to a banker or economist that isn't appreciative of the hoops the administration went through to see the economy recover), Hurricane Katrina, et. al. History, if it is remotely fair, will record Pres Bush right up there with Lincoln if not higher.
So with heartfelt appreciation, God Bless our troops, God Bless America and God Bless George W. Bush!
Posted by: Conneticut Yankee at May 25, 2007 06:08 AM (LIQ4q)
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You have to take into account the large number of severely wounded troops. That said, in peacetime the military engages in a lot of high risk training that produces a lot of fatalities. I was a Navy Pilot in the 80's and we lost a whole lot of people during exercises and training.
Posted by: dan in michigan at May 25, 2007 08:29 AM (uSI6F)
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Wow, Conneticut (sic) Yankee...Tony Snow in his utmost hagiographic mode couldn't have put it any better himself. There aren't many diehard Bush cultists like you left hanging around. Bravo, sir.
Posted by: Arbotreeist at May 25, 2007 08:35 AM (N8M1W)
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Such sarcasm....to bad only 29% of the public feels that Congress is doing a good job.
Posted by: Specter at May 25, 2007 09:12 AM (ybfXM)
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And those who think they are are more cultist than anything else I've seen.....
Posted by: Specter at May 25, 2007 09:13 AM (ybfXM)
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Reminds me of an interview I saw during the first Gulf War. It was with an officer in an RAF Tornado squadron. The media with in a sh*t state over the fact that the Brit's had lost 4 Tornados early in the war(largely the result of very dangerous low-level runway busting missions). The RAF officer pointed out to the reporter that in relation to operation hours and sorties flown, their loss in the war were actually lower than during peace time exercizes in Britian and Europe.
Posted by: Tbird at May 25, 2007 12:02 PM (aVjye)
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From TBR News' "The Dishonored Dead" (2005):
"There is excellent reason to believe that the Department of Defense has deliberately not reported a significant number of the dead in Iraq. The actual death toll is in excess of 10,000. Given the officially acknowledged number of over 15,000 seriously wounded (and a published total of 25,000 wounded overall,), this elevated death toll is far more realistic than the current 2,000+ now being officially published.
"In addition to the evident falsification of the death rolls, at least 5,500 American military personnel have deserted, most in Ireland but more have escaped to Canada and other European countries, none of whom are inclined to cooperate with vengeful American authorities. This means that of the 158,000 U.S. military shipped to Iraq, 26,000 deserted, were killed or seriously wounded. The DoD lists currently being very quietly circulated indicate over 10,000 dead, over 25,000 seriously wounded and a large number of suicides, forced hospitalization for ongoing drug usage and sales, murder of Iraqi civilians and fellow soldiers, rapes, courts martial and so on.
"The government gets away with these huge lies because they claim, falsely, that only soldiers actually killed *on the ground* in Iraq are reported. The dying and critically wounded are listed as en route to military hospitals outside of the country and *not* reported on the daily postings. Anyone who dies just as the transport takes off from the Baghdad airport is not listed and neither are those who die in the US military hospitals. Their families are certainly notified that their son, husband, brother or lover was dead and the bodies, or what is left of them (refrigeration is very bad in Iraq what with constant power outages) are shipped home, to Dover AFB. This, we note, was the overall policy until very recently. Since it became well known that many had died at Landstuhl, in Germany, the DoD began to list a very few soldiers who had died at other non-theater locations. These numbers are only for show and are pathetically small in relationship to the actual figures."
From TBR News, 2007:
"Note: Viewers of TBR News who would like a copy of the original Department of Defense Supplemental Casualty lists from 2003 to mid-2005, showing facsimiles of the actual casualties, as opposed to the heavily redacted official listings, may write to [name available at link below] at [e-mail available at link below] for a full copy of the original documents. This list is free of charge. As of May 12, 2007, [name available at link below] has sent out 25, 321 lists."
...
"This original listing showed that as of mid-2005, the death count in both Iraq and Afghanistan topped 10,000 with 20,000 seriously wounded. By 2007, the death toll has risen to over 15,000 (and rising daily) with officially reported serious woundings (requiring out-of-theater hospitalization) at 50,508 as per a report published in the New York Times of January 30, 2007.
"Also not discussed are the over 10,000 desertions (from March, 2003 to date)."
http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a2689.htm
Posted by: j at May 25, 2007 01:39 PM (4AjM8)
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J, you
might want to get into the habit of verifying the
veracity and
credibility of your sources.
Joy Behar and Rosie O'Donnell have more credibility than this man, whatever his real name is.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at May 25, 2007 01:58 PM (9y6qg)
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This keeps getting better... or at least more amusing.
One of the many aliases of the guy who writes "TBR News" is "Gregory Douglas" is a
Holocaust denier, and may have been the first guy to "air the theory" that the Bush Administration and Israel orchestrated the 9/11 attacks.
He is also purported to be a document and art forger and enthalled with the Nazis when he's not authoring articles on Karl Rove's gay orgies.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at May 25, 2007 02:18 PM (9y6qg)
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are you gonna bark all day, little doggie, or are you gonna bite? even BUSH is right twice a day....
Posted by: j at May 25, 2007 04:02 PM (4AjM8)
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Least folks, I am dealing with facts that anyone can find at the DOD sites, Search, Wikipedia sites or even, when still uncertain making a few phone calls and talking to whoever would know the issue up close and personal. As a former TV anchor/reporter closely related to the US military, am absolutely appalled at the mis-reporting and genuine ignorance of the enemy exhibited by today's journalists, even from time to time on Fox. Though for the most part retired, and am still writing and TRIPLE verify 'facts' (independent verification) before publishing. That is something apparently neither monitored nor done by today's major media outlets for the most part run by Viet Nam era fogies whose only success in life was to discredit whatever administration was in office.
The spin is constantly negative as it should be in one sense-the press is yet another check on government next to the three branches. But lying, deliberately looking for ways and means of discrediting this administration utilizing half truths or outright lies as in J's piece, is not just outrageous but beyond the pale.
My degrees are in political science so do not feel any obligation to MSM (mainstream media) or a political party except to learn the truth. A little bit of homework, deliberately looking for both positive and negatives can only leave one in genuine awe of the Bush administration. For the most part- and those of you with close military connections can verify this pretty easily-look at the number of attempts to horrifically attack the US, have been thwarted from each branch of the service working on anti-terrorism task forces throughout the country, nevermind those plans uncovered by the FBI and Homeland Security teams. It is boggling but perhaps not reported simply because the administration doesn't want the enemy to know just how much the agencies do know about them. The only place I fault the Bush administration is, perhaps, not letting the public know how extraordinarily dangerous this enemy, Al Qaeda really is.
PS-Would love to have Snow's job but don't think they hire over-60 types!
Posted by: Conneticut Yankee at May 25, 2007 04:29 PM (1S6+l)
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"But lying, deliberately looking for ways and means of discrediting this administration utilizing half truths or outright lies as in J's piece...."
for all of your guff, you've shown us none of that to be true, CY, but you have, quite accidentally, spouted out some truth in your spiel: "A little bit of homework...can only leave one in genuine awe of the Bush administration." ahhhh... "a little" homework, yes; just pray don't do too much of it.
Posted by: j at May 26, 2007 01:15 AM (4AjM8)
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May 22, 2007
Also, The Sun Came Up Today
Allegations in today's
Guardian that Iran may be supporting Sunni insurgents and al Qaeda in Iraq in anti-surge operations may come as a shock to some, but I
can't imagine why:
Iran is secretly forging ties with al-Qaida elements and Sunni Arab militias in Iraq in preparation for a summer showdown with coalition forces intended to tip a wavering US Congress into voting for full military withdrawal, US officials say.
"Iran is fighting a proxy war in Iraq and it's a very dangerous course for them to be following. They are already committing daily acts of war against US and British forces," a senior US official in Baghdad warned. "They [Iran] are behind a lot of high-profile attacks meant to undermine US will and British will, such as the rocket attacks on Basra palace and the Green Zone [in Baghdad]. The attacks are directed by the Revolutionary Guard who are connected right to the top [of the Iranian government]."
The official said US commanders were bracing for a nationwide, Iranian-orchestrated summer offensive, linking al-Qaida and Sunni insurgents to Tehran's Shia militia allies, that Iran hoped would trigger a political mutiny in Washington and a US retreat. "We expect that al-Qaida and Iran will both attempt to increase the propaganda and increase the violence prior to Petraeus's report in September [when the US commander General David Petraeus will report to Congress on President George Bush's controversial, six-month security "surge" of 30,000 troop reinforcements]," the official said.
"Certainly it [the violence] is going to pick up from their side. There is significant latent capability in Iraq, especially Iranian-sponsored capability. They can turn it up whenever they want. You can see that from the pre-positioning that's been going on and the huge stockpiles of Iranian weapons that we've turned up in the last couple of months. The relationships between Iran and groups like al-Qaida are very fluid," the official said.
Iran is not "secretly forging ties" with al Qaeda; they've had them all along, possibly as far back as the 1996 Khobar Towers attack. al Qaeda operatives, including the 9/11 plotters have long used Iran as a gateway to Afghanistan, and al Qaeda operatives have lived in Iran since the fall of the Taliban.
That Iran would use "their" al Qaeda to hook up with al Qaeda operatives and other Sunni insurgents in Iraq to pursue their shared goal of forcing the United States out of Iraq is not only unsurprising, it is tediously predictable.
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Firstly, the al Qaeda "ties" with Iran are being as implausibly played up as they were with Saddam's Iraq. Of course the Iranians are holding al Qaeda members. They hope to trade them for the MEK that we are holding in Iraq and have been for some time. The Khobar Towers connection is pure speculation. Quoth your provided article, "Al Qaeda, the commission determined, may even have played a 'yet unknown role' in aiding Hezbollah militants in the 1996 bombing of the Khobar Towers. . ." Hmm, may even have played a yet unknown role, eh? Convincing. Let us not forget that Tehran fed us intelligence during the overthrow of the Taleban. There was no love lost on that border.
To the instant case, it is possible that the Iranians are backing the Sunnis, but it would a dangerous game for them. If this speculation is correct and the goal is to force us out of Iraq, they will, if successful, have to deal with the Sunni militants themselves afterward. They are, after all, the blood enemies of Tehran's own Shi'ite allies in Iraq. That seems like it would produce way too much blowback for the Iranians to accept. This risk may be outweighed by the Iranians' desire to bleed us dry faster.
On the other hand, blaming Iran for everything has become a hobby in both Iraq and Washington and it's similarly possible that this is just more calculated disinformation.
Posted by: Shochu John at May 22, 2007 02:24 PM (mydDl)
Posted by: Bill Faith at May 22, 2007 02:25 PM (n7SaI)
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sj:
Another of those who feels the Iranians wouldn't play with AlQaeda because they are Sunni. The iranians are talking directly with the Gulf States. Why wouldn't they be working with Al Qaeda?
Posted by: davod at May 22, 2007 02:32 PM (RdotW)
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Davod,
It's not that Iran won't work with Sunnis, it's the Iran is not likely to get along with the hardline Salafis (read al Qaeda types) who think that Shi'ia are not really Muslims. These are the "takfiris" (excommuncators) that you'll regularly hear Muqtada railing against.
It's difficult to form even a short term relationship of convenience with people who want you dead, and the Iranians are unlikely to find many people they can work with on the Iraqi Sunni side once they elimiate the Salafis and the Ba'athists. This is doubly so considering that any aid given to these people would likely be used against Iran's allies in Iraq (the Shi'ite parties). Again, it is possible that Iran might back such people so they keep fighting the U.S., but, especially with an American withdrawal looking more likely, it is a very risky proposition for them. No doubt their plan for the aftermath of a U.S. withdrawal from Iraq is Iran-backed Shi'ite parties rolling over the Sunnis and getting rid of the Salafis and Ba'athists once and for all with good old-fashioned genocide.
Posted by: Shochu John at May 22, 2007 03:04 PM (mydDl)
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It's obviously ridiculous to think that Shi'ites would ever ally themselves with Sunnis. It's as absurd as say, Hitler allying with Stalin.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at May 23, 2007 02:22 AM (hnl8M)
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You will of course dismiss it because the author is Seymour Hersch, but I would love to hear an intelligent response:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/03/05/070305fa_fact_hersh
"To undermine Iran, which is predominantly Shiite, the Bush Administration has decided, in effect, to reconfigure its priorities in the Middle East. In Lebanon, the Administration has coöperated with Saudi Arabia’s government, which is Sunni, in clandestine operations that are intended to weaken Hezbollah, the Shiite organization that is backed by Iran. The U.S. has also taken part in clandestine operations aimed at Iran and its ally Syria. A by-product of these activities has been the bolstering of Sunni extremist groups that espouse a militant vision of Islam and are hostile to America and sympathetic to Al Qaeda."
Posted by: Random Guy at May 23, 2007 02:33 AM (K1Emm)
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Time for "Chicago Rules" when dealing with Iranian operatives.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at May 23, 2007 07:38 PM (zrtnQ)
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So? What is the US going to do about it? Nothing! If we do anything more than bomb them we would have to withdraw troops from Iraq in which those on the right would view as a defeat.
Posted by: JW NC at May 23, 2007 08:53 PM (88FOa)
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May 21, 2007
Progress?
Jules Crittenden takes a look
behind the headlines to note that the intensive search operations for our missing soldiers in Iraq have led to a dramatic decease in al Qaeda activity in the so-called "Triangle of Death." He's got a dozen links, al worth reading.
Meanwhile, my buddy Michael Yon is in al Anbar, once al Qaeda's base of operations and the heart of the Sunni insurgency, and is bored out of his mind. This is the second time he's mentioned a lack of action there (here's the first) in as many days. He could get used to this. I think we all could, American and Iraqi alike.
Other parts of Iraq were not as quiet.
Sheikh Azhar al-Dulaymi, the Iranian-trained mastermind of the Karbala raid that killed five American soldiers killed in late January, was killed in Sadr City by U.S. forces.
Elsewhere in Iraq, seven U.S. soldiers were killed over the weekend, along with dozens of Iraqi civilians. Eight insurgents were killed and almost three dozen more were captured in a series of raids on Karmah, south of Baghdad.
Elsewhere in the War on Terror, Lebanese Army units fought intense battles with an al Qaeda-aligned group outside Tripoli. Speculation is that the group is backed by Syrian military intelligence at the behest of Syrian dictator Bashir Assad. The group is apparently led by Shaker al-Absi, a Syrian Air Force veteran that is thought to have fought against U.S. forces in Iraq and who is believed to have had links to al Qaeda in Iraq's former leader, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. According to a Washington Post report, on the terrorists killed, Saddam El-Hajdib , was a suspect in a failed train bombing in Germany.
Meanwhile, the McCain-Kennedy Illegal Alien Exploitation and Terrorist Proliferation Bill is under debate in the U.S. Senate. The bill would offer official documentation to illegal aliens without being able to verify who they actually are or where they come from, and would allow terrorists like the three illegal alien brothers who crossed over the Mexican border at Brownsville and were recently arrested plotting a terrorist attack on Fort Dix to continue to penetrate this country, now with the added bonus of being able to get legal status.
McCain and Republicans in the House and Senate want cheap labor at indentured servitude prices, while Democrats, knowing that illegals tend to break Democrat roughly 5:1 because of the Marxist/socialist politics of their home nations, hope to use illegals to establish an overwhelming permanent Democratic majority.
In the end, we're looking at a Congress that is willing to pass a law that would enable Osama bin Laden himself to get legal status here in the United States.
That is not a comment I'm making up; it comes directly from Mike Cutler, a 30-year veteran of the U.S. Immigration Service, who thinks the Senate bill should be referred to as the Terrorist Assistance and Facilitation Act of 2007.
I hate Mondays.
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"knowing that illegals tend to break Democrat roughly 5:1 because of the Marxist/socialist politics of their home nations"
Is that it, or is it the fact that an otherwise natural fit for the GOP (socially conservative Latino voters) are being driven away by the overt anti-immigration stances of a good chunk of the Republican Party? You'll note that W. has been consistently pro-immigration. That may have something to do with the fact that Karl Rove can count. There are a lot of Latino voters today. There will be far more in twenty years.
Posted by: Shochu John at May 21, 2007 10:24 AM (dOcZ9)
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First, President Bush has been pro-Mexican immigrant from his early days as governor, and has sought to provide a means of legalization from the beginning. It is not a Karl Rove plot.
While I think this amnesty thing is wrong, very wrong, it is something that has been part of the President's goals from the outset. I don't care if the the illegals that are granted amnesty vote Democrat. I care that we are granting amnesty with our borders wide open. We have not fixed the problem, we have just punted it further down the line. This leaves us vulnerable in many ways, fiscally, socially, and militarily. The fact of the matter is that I don't think anyone would be as upset over amnesty if the mechanism for securing our borders against illegal crossing was in place.
Posted by: Mekan at May 21, 2007 11:02 AM (hm8tW)
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The way that the comments are phrased is a problem. I know of few people who are actually against immigration. The majority of people that I know that are against this deal have a significant problem with illegal immigration. They view the issue from several points. The illegals have broken the law. Not only in crossing the border, but also in obtaining false idenity (often stealing identity). This makes them criminals on multiple counts. They are also not educated and generally the lower elements of socity. We have enough of those in the country.
The open borders obviously is a security issue that has to be addressed. But has anyone considered what will happen to the illegals if they are made legit? Their employers will then have to meet Federal guidlines regarding them so they will likely lose their jobs, then we will need another 12 million to replace them.
It does the Republicans little good to count on these people as future voters if they are loosing their base. And I feel that is exactly what is occuring.
Posted by: David Caskey at May 21, 2007 11:28 AM (G5i3t)
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A Few Words on Pelosi, Reid, Murtha, Etc.
I don't agree with the
threats, but I certainly share the frustrations.
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is that supposed to be "reid"?
Posted by: jon at May 21, 2007 08:00 AM (4AjM8)
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And now you see why I shouldn't blog until I've had my second cup of coffee. ;-)
Fixed.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at May 21, 2007 08:23 AM (9y6qg)
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Pat nailed that one alright. Those three have no problems using our soldiers like props in a movie. I use to think t hey work for the other side now I see theyr only side is themself. No there HAPPY to build their career on the backs of our soldiers. They WANT us to lose so they can be big fish in a smaller pond.
LIke Pat Id feel zero remorse no thats too good first Id pop their arms from the sockets.
Posted by: Karl at May 21, 2007 10:40 AM (BKFQg)
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An angry right-winger? Now
there's something you don't see every day. Good find.
Posted by: jpe at May 21, 2007 11:02 AM (+rmhC)
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“Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled, or hanged.”
President Abraham Lincoln
Sounds like they're following a pretty good role model.
Posted by: SDN at May 21, 2007 05:52 PM (TIw0n)
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May 18, 2007
Palestinian Plot to Assassinate Olmert Foiled
The
accused plotter worked for Doctors Without Borders. I'm guessing "first do no harm" principle of Doctors without Borders slipped by him in orientation.
The Israeli intelligence services say they have foiled a plot to assassinate Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and other senior Israeli political figures. Details of the story were released yesterday after Israeli authorities lifted a media blackout.
The plot allegedly centered on Mazab Bashir, a 25-year-old Palestinian from Gaza who worked for the international medical relief organization Doctors Without Borders. According to the Israelis, Bashir was arrested in Jerusalem while he was gathering intelligence for future terrorist attacks.
It is not uncommon for Palestinians from Gaza to be granted travel permits by the Israeli security agencies if they work for recognized nongovernmental organizations. Bashir held such a permit, which allowed him to travel regularly from the Gaza Strip to Jerusalem, officials said.
The indictment said Bashir made several surveillance tours of the area surrounding Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's Jerusalem residence but decided that the building was too well protected. Working with the Palestinian militant group, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, he allegedly received hand to hand combat training and used the Internet to find alternative Israeli personalities to target.
Forbes was able to provide details of the alternative target list:
Once he deemed that the assassination of the prime minister was impossible, Bashir began collecting information on other top Israeli politicians, including Cabinet minister Avigdor Lieberman, deputy Defense Minister Ephraim Sneh and Labor Party lawmaker Ophir Pines-Paz.
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May 16, 2007
The Storm Builds
Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran.
That will be the take-away for most on this Telegraph article published today, and while that is an extreme bastardization of what former ambassador to the United Nations John Bolten actually said--he actually advocated an escalating course of significant economic sanctions, regime change, and the use of force only if nothing else works--the headline of "We must attack Iran before it gets the bomb" does accurately describe what appears at this point to be the probable end game.
Melanie Phillips does an admirable job of almost describing the stakes:
The choice is not between a negotiated peace with Iran and a war with appalling risks. It is a choice between a war with appalling risks and an Iran that will hold the world to nuclear ransom, having destroyed Israel as a throat-clearing exercise. It is a choice between war with Iran, and war with a nuclear Iran; war on our terms, and war on IranÂ’s terms; war in which we take the initiative and thus have every prospect of winning, and war in which Iran holds the trump card, which means we have a near certainty of losing.
At the same time, as Bolton also emphasised, making such a grim choice must be a last resort. All-out war with Iran is a prospect fraught with appalling perils and uncertainties. Only a fool would embark upon such a war precipitately. But only a fool would rule it out as a possibly inevitable last resort. The problem is that the EU — and parts of the US government — are behaving as if such a last resort is totally unthinkable. This has powerfully undermined the diplomacy, since Iran clearly believes — and with good reason — that the west simply isn’t serious about enforcing its will and will never go to war against Iran in any circumstances.
I this Phillips is right on the generalities of her statement, but would disagree with her comment that, "Iran that will hold the world to nuclear ransom, having destroyed Israel as a throat-clearing exercise."
Israel has developed an air force over the past decade with the express purpose of targeting Iranian nuclear facilities, which explains their purchase of long-range F-15I "Ra'am" and F-16I "Sufa" strike fighters. Israel has purchased 25 of the F-15I "Ra'am" strike fighters and 102 F-16I "Sufa" strike fighters, the last of which will be delivered in 2008. These aircraft have the capability of hitting Iranian targets without in-flight refueling, and with in-flight refueling, could target any location in that country. Both aircraft are capable of carrying "bunkerbuster" bombs thought to have been purchased from the United States, and would almost certainly be designed to carry the 60-85 nuclear weapons (according to the DIA) thought to be in Israeli inventories.
A U.S. Army paper cites the data of a fired Israeli nuclear technician, Mordechai Vanunu, who went public with his information in 1985, which seems to indicate:
...a sophisticated nuclear program, over 200 bombs, with boosted devices, neutron bombs, F-16 deliverable warheads, and Jericho warheads.
The same paper also indicates that Israel's military may already have official government authorization for a retaliatory nuclear strike if Israel was struck first with nuclear weapons.
Iran may very well destroy Israel as a nation in a nuclear first strike, but Israel's nuclear arsenal would answer holocaust with a holocaust, and as noted yesterday, the Hojjatieh cult running Iran may very well be depending on an Israel response to force a messianic return.
Iran will either be stripped of its nuclear weapons program, or Iran (and other countries) will be stripped of life.
While the headline was perhaps a bit misleading, it was nonetheless true: if economic sanctions and regime change efforts fail, we must attack Iran before it gets the bomb to avoid the deaths of tens of millions.
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I have a few questions for anyone who has the info to answer them.
First, do we even have the resources available to fight another war at this time?
Second, would the war with Iran be yet another front on the GWOT, or would it be its own war? This doesn't seem to be a semantic difference; in the first instance, the administration could make the case that the use-of-force resolution from 2003 could be stretched to cover this as well, but if it's a new war, there would have to be a new resolution/declaration, right?
Finally, when (if ever) would a nation's possession of nuclear weapons fall into the "terrorist" category?
Posted by: Doc Washboard at May 16, 2007 01:25 PM (nrafD)
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Just so you know the GWOT is actually the Global War on Extemist Islam. Iran would be included.
I dont know for a fact, but I do think we could fight a war with Iran. I dont think it would be a full on invasion, but more of a massive air campaign. Seeing as our air power isnt being used extensively in Iraq, I think we could pull it off.
Lastly if Iran, having major connections with Hezbollah, was in possesion of a nuclear bomb, that would absolutly fall into the "terrorist" category. I dont think we should be worried about it going off on American soil, but if I lived in Tel Aviv I would be extremely worried.
Posted by: Justin at May 16, 2007 02:37 PM (NiTuu)
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To declare war, Im pretty sure we would need another declaration. Seeing as we have a far far left congress, I dont think that would happen. Thats the problem with the far-left. They wont declare war even in the face of a clear threat.
See, in 2003, the Democrats weren't far-left but more centrist-left. They read the intel, they made the only logical choice, as did our president.
Posted by: Justin at May 16, 2007 02:41 PM (NiTuu)
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Justin,
Just so YOU know. The resolution authorizing the use of force doesn't include the term Global War on Extremist Islam. the term hadn't been invented yet because we were still all believeing the lie that Iraq had something to do with Al Qaidas attack on the World Trade Center. Iran isn't included and it was a real stretch to include Iraq. Constitutionally it's been longer than two years so Congress would have to reauthorize it anyway.
A "massive air strike" does not a war make. It isn't a substitute for ground troops. This was proven in Viet Nam and later in Bosnia/Kosovo. Even the first Gulf War required a ground component and that after 6 months of continual bombing. If we can't mount a ground war, and right now we can't even continue the one we're in unless Bush gets the balls to institute a draft, then we shouldn't go.
The "they'll give the terrorists the bomb" theory was a lie when it was Saddam who was supposedly developing one and it's a lie now. Both the US and USSR have had much smaller and more powerful weapons for decades. Both have supported organizations that used terrorist tactics and neither have ever given anyone "the bomb".
Iran is a signatory of the non-proliferation treaty. Thay have the right under that treaty to refine uranium for civilian power production. There is proof that they are enriching it for other reasons and to a far higher level than they are yet capable of there isn't any reason to invade.
Then there is the issue of who might get "the bomb". Palastine is holy ground to Hezbollah. They're not fighting because they're "evil" or because they like "killing Jews", they want their country back. Setting off nukes in a country they expect to occupy some day is contraproductive.
Finally, if you really expect Muslims to set off nuclear weapons in a very small country that contains some of Islams most sacred sites you'd better ask yourself what has been done to them to make them so angry and desperate.
Posted by: iaintbacchus at May 16, 2007 03:17 PM (mYHGQ)
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Justin,
Maybe you should define what you mean by left and right. and where the "center" is. Almost a quarter of the Dems in the Senate and about a fifth of the house are "blue dogs" who vote consistantly with the Republicans. I think that your definition of "centerist" is being in agreement with you. That isn't where the center is unless you're pre-Galleleo world view puts you at the center of the universe.
And the only "intel" that congress got in 2002/3 was hand picked by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz. And all of it turned out to be, to put it kindly, inaccurate.
Posted by: iaintbacchus at May 16, 2007 03:26 PM (mYHGQ)
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Folks, I'm going to ask you to please re-read the
comments policy, and stop with the profanity and personal insults.
I can delete 'em a lot fast than you can write 'em, and I can ban your IP even faster than that.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at May 17, 2007 12:38 PM (9y6qg)
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Well then Mr. Fair-Play,
Since Oldcrow started it on this thread, delete his offending post. Or is it only liberal profanity and insults that get cut?
R. Mutt
Posted by: R.Mutt at May 17, 2007 12:52 PM (WijbP)
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Mutt, I tend to delete comments fairly evenly (a certain conservative regular would lead my deleted comments by far, if I kept score), but don't claim to be able to catch them 100% of the time.
You'll note that Crow's comment is now gone. I missed the insult the first time around because his comment was long, and I only quickly skimmed through it.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at May 17, 2007 01:14 PM (9y6qg)
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Whether it's a good idea or a bad idea from an ideological point of view, the bombing of Iran appears to be a nonoption for the foreseeable future if only because so many people in the military oppose it. If Bush ordered a new war, I think there would be mass resignations of general officers. Again, you may think that the military would be wrong to prevent a new war; but assuming war is out, isn't it time to think about other approaches to Iran that don't involve feckless saber-rattling?
By the way, an Israeli attack on Iran at this time would probably have the effect of putting us at war with Iran in short order. One can only hope that Bush doesn't encourage Israeli air strikes as a way of getting us into another war without securing the consent of Congress or the willing participation of the professional mililtary. That could happen. Legality and plain dealing are hardly the hallmarks of this administration.
Posted by: Jim Harrison at May 17, 2007 02:56 PM (021Bh)
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"were still all believeing the lie that Iraq had something to do with Al Qaidas attack on the World Trade Center"
Who thought that? I didnt. Bush never said Iraq had anything to with 9/11. Im not sure what lie you're talking about exactly.
"A "massive air strike" does not a war make. It isn't a substitute for ground troops. This was proven in Viet Nam and later in Bosnia/Kosovo."
No, it doesnt. However, that might be all we need to stop Iran's enrichment program. And, I thought we used ground troops in Nam. Maybe I'm wrong.
"Iran is a signatory of the non-proliferation treaty. Thay have the right under that treaty to refine uranium for civilian power production. "
Let me get this straight, you think its a good idea to trust Iran to not make bombs? Wow.
"Maybe you should define what you mean by left and right. and where the "center" is. Almost a quarter of the Dems in the Senate and about a fifth of the house are "blue dogs" who vote consistantly with the Republicans"
That one is my mistake. I meant the Democrat leadership. However, the Blue Dogs do follow their leadership, or they will be go the way of Leiberman.
"And the only "intel" that congress got in 2002/3 was hand picked by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz. And all of it turned out to be, to put it kindly, inaccurate."
Really. And the Dems only have access to supposed hand picked intel? If thats the case, then they are pretty negligent in authorizing a war without doing some reasearch. Oh maybe its because the leading Dems were screaming since 1998 we had to take out Saddamn for his WMD's and for not listening to the world community. Do I have to post the quotes from Mr. Clinton?
Posted by: Justin at May 17, 2007 03:27 PM (NiTuu)
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Only three-year olds think they've got a right to kick you in the shins and then to be surprised when the victim kicks back. Sheesh! Of course bombing Iran is an act of war, and I guarantee that the consequences of such a strike will not be pleasant. We can attack Iran with planes and missiles but they can't retaliate in kind, which just means we'll be dealing with terrorism, economic warfare, and probably a protracted land war in Iraq.
What's missing here is any sense that other people have rights and that it's not a small thing to order air strikes or murder anybody we chose. That's a crazy attitude; and, granted that we don't have a monopoly on the power, increasingly a stupid one. It's also not to bright to bring on a two- or three-front war when you don't have to.
Posted by: Jim Harrison at May 17, 2007 04:51 PM (+7yVx)
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Justin,
Bush said in his 2003 SOTU address that Iraqi intellegence officers has had meetings with high level Al Qaida operatives. What other point was he trying to make since the entire speech was a pitch for his dishonest war? I could if I wanted to take the time find mant other examples of Bush, Cheney, Rice and even Powell trying to make the case that Iraq was somehow responsible for 9/11. So could you. you're just being dishonest.
As for an air strike. Do you really think it would be a good idea to use a large number of bombs to stop Iran's enrichment program? The effect would be to spread enriched uranium, most of which is in gaseous form over most of central Asia.
Let me get this straight, You have some concrete reason to believe that Iran has managed to enrich uranium to a 80% u236 content? Gee, maybe you should be working for the CIA. As signatories to that treaty ourselves, by constitutiional law, we can invade them for simply having an enrichment program. Not that legality has stopped this president from doing anything for the last 6 years, but it would be nice to get back to the rule of law in the US.
I'm well aware that Clintons position was for regieme change in Iraq. He upheald and increased the sanctions against Iraq and enforced the no fly zones in northern and Southern Iraq for 8 years. But I don't recall him using a terrorist attack by people from another country as an excuse to invade. Clinton understood the concepts of Soveriegn Statehood and international law. As for congress doing some research, every single organization tasked with gathering foriegn intellegence falls under the executive branch. And all of that intellegence, before it was given to congress was filtered through the Office of Special Plans in the Pentagon. Which gets us back to Pearl and Wolfowitz. Bush was even providing intellegence breifings for the Republican members of the intellegence commitee only. Weren't you reading the new in 2002 and 2003?
And for that matter, if what Clinton said or did was of so much importance, why did both State and Justice ignore the outgoing administrations warning that Osamma Bin Laden and Al Qaida were the biggest current theat to national security. 9/11 could have been avoided if Justice and John Ashcroft haddn't been more interested in busting whorehouses than catching international terrorists. Give up on the "Clinton did it, too" defense. It's wearing thin and it isn't true anyway.
Posted by: iaintbacchus at May 17, 2007 05:04 PM (mYHGQ)
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Iaintbacchus, this just flat out a lie: "And all of that intelligence, before it was given to congress was filtered through the Office of Special Plans in the Pentagon." It took an act of Congress to get these folks to even share info. Remember?
Posted by: CoRev at May 17, 2007 08:46 PM (0U8Ob)
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An Accidental Interview
I had an interesting twenty-minute face-to-face conversation with a Spec Ops soldier named "K.C." last night.
K.C. first jumped into Iraq on March 26, 2003 with the 173rd Airborne Brigade, in the largest combat air drop since WWII. He most recently served in a six-man Long Range Surveillance (LRS) unit. The LRS are direct descendents of the famed LRRP "A-teams" of the Vietnam War era.
He was careful not to mention assignments or duty locations, but based upon some of the things he stated in our conversation, I gather that he has served extensively in Iraq, and perhaps in Afghanistan as well. He is presently on leave.
During the course of our conversation, K.C. told me the same things I've heard time and again from soldiers at nearby Fort Bragg, airmen from Pope AFB, and the occasion Marines from Camp Lejune and MCAS Cherry Point.
Stop me if you've heard these before.
"The war you see in the media is not the war we are fighting."
If he has his way, K.C. would boot all media out of Iraq. Like others soldiers and Marines before him, he noted to problem of news organizations basing many of their stories based upon anecdotal conversations from locals with their own agendas, while ignoring the testimony of U.S. soldiers, or sometimes cherry-picking comments and dowdifying them to the point that they no longer reflected what the soldier actually said, reflected the battles they've fought, or the experiences they've had. Reporters have alsoeither ignored the physical evidence supporting soldiers contentions, or have been too ignorant or biased to assimilate the information.
K.C.'s observation reminds me of a conversation I had with a soldier who fought in Ramadi some months ago, who spoke of an attack in his area that left civilians dead. The media blamed the deaths on a firefight involving U.S. forces, even though it was 7.62x39mm shell casings (the cartridge used almost universally by Arab militaries, militias, and insurgent groups) and expended RPG fragments found at the scene of the attack, and no signs of American involvement were present.
K.C. related one particular story that obviously still bothered him, that of a school hit by insurgents during the early days of the war. The insurgents killed a number of children, and the media accounts he later saw attributed it to a U.S. airstrike.
I guess that even though the AP has stopped using his name since he was exposed as a fraud, Jamil Not-Hussein still really gets around.
I told him about milblogs, maintained by the active duty soldiers and veterans, and how I thought that if the military was smart, they'd make an effort to channel more information through them to bypass the media that he and other soldiers distrust so much, enabling soldiers to directly tell their stories and experiences to the world. He liked the concept quite a bit, even though he stated he couldn't write about what he personally did.
I hope any military brass that happen to be reading this listens.
"G--D--- Democrats"
Like every single soldier, airman and Marine I've talked to, K.C. is disgusted with Democrat politicians. He pulls no punches: he considers them supporters of terrorism. Period.
This is a sentiment I've also heard before, and interestingly enough, it seems, at least among those I've talked with, that the infantry soldiers and Marines who have spent the most time on the ground feel this the strongest.
Of course, this could have several reasons. The frontline soldiers have more personally invested blood, sweat and tears in the war, have lost friends, and have killed men in Iraq. They also interact with the Iraqi people, and would presumably know them and the culture better than support troops or the airmen I've spoken with. Some seemed to like the Iraqi people, some did not, but to a man, they all wanted to continue the mission and were visibly, coldly (and sometimes not so coldly) angry with Democratic attempts to lose the war.
I shook hands with K.C., wished him well, and told him to keep his head down as he prepares for his next deployment in Our Children's Children's War.
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Good luck and Godspeed to that brave soldier.
Posted by: Dan Irving at May 16, 2007 10:02 AM (zw8QA)
Posted by: David M at May 16, 2007 10:27 AM (6+obf)
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"
hey all wanted to continue the mission and were visibly, coldly (and sometimes not so coldly) angry with Democratic attempts to lose the war."
How impressed are they with Republican attempts to win the war? Both look equally halfhearted.
Posted by: Shochu John at May 16, 2007 10:42 AM (m4aO9)
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At least the Republicans are attempting to win. Alot better than attempting to lose.
Posted by: Justin at May 16, 2007 11:39 AM (NiTuu)
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Really, Justin? Here's how I see it. There are only two responsible things to do in a war: win it or get the hell out. Winning it is better than getting out and both are better than jabbering on about winning while having no actual strategy to do so.
Is there a plan to avoid a bloody Iraqi civil war? If so, what is it, if not, what do we accomplish by delaying it?
Posted by: Shochu John at May 16, 2007 12:30 PM (m4aO9)
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"no actual strategy?"
Here's 252 pages of "
no actual strategy" (PDF). You won't actually read any of it, of course.
Its successful implementation will slowly begin to eat away at the bloody sectarian divide, which arose out of security concerns to begin with. If the security concerns are addressed, JAM has no reason to exist, and will stop going after Sunnis (not that they have done a lot of that recently anyway). These security concerns, often the result of Sunni and al Qaeda attacks against Shias, are already being impacted by the "awakening" movements in Anbar and Diyala, where Sunni tribes are joining the police and military, while turning on their former Sunni insurgent and al Qaeda allies.
You now have "the plan" if you actually are willing to read it.
Somehow, I doubt you'll get much past the cover page.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at May 16, 2007 12:47 PM (9y6qg)
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Getting the hell out is a "responsable" part of war? Wow.
Posted by: Justin at May 16, 2007 02:30 PM (NiTuu)
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A few minor points... The March 03 drop was the largest combat airdrop since Panama in '89. Although the same USAF page also describes it as the largest _formation_ airdop since D-Day, confusingly. Also, LRRPs had nothing to do with "A" teams. LRRPs were recon, trained by SF, but largely manned by Rangers, until being handed completely over to the Rangers in '69. "A" teams are multi-purpose units mainly for deep infiltration and sabotage, either on their own or by making contact with friendly nationals in-country.
Also,
The media blamed the deaths on a firefight involving U.S. forces, even though it was 7.62x39mm shell casings (the cartridge used almost universally by Arab militaries, militias, and insurgent groups) and expended RPG fragments found at the scene of the attack, and no signs of American involvement were present.
BS. Anyone who's even been in that part of the world knows how incredibly common AKs are, and I happen to know that no small number of US personnel have access to and even carry AKs themselves. Saying it was 7.62 casings proves nothing either way.
And as for yor "actual strategy"? Allow me to quote for you paragraph 6 of Joint Pub 5-0, "Joint Operation Planning":
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U) Paragraph: 6 The Scope of Joint Operation Planning
a. Joint operation planning encompasses the full range of activities required to conduct joint operations. These activities include the mobilization, deployment, employment, sustainment, redeployment, and demobilization of forces.
(1) Mobilization. Mobilization is the process by which the Armed Forces or part of them are brought to a state of readiness for war or other national emergency. Mobilization may include activating all or part of the Reserve_ Component. Mobilization is primarily the responsibility of the Military Departments and Services in close cooperation with the supported commanders and their Service component commanders.
Joint Publication (JP) 4-05, Joint Mobilization Planning, discusses joint mobilization planning in greater detail.
(2) Deployment. Deployment encompasses the movement of forces and their sustainment resources from their original locations to a specific destination to conduct joint operations. It specifically includes movement of forces and their requisite sustaining resources within the United States, within theaters, and between theaters. Deployment is primarily the responsibility of the supported commanders and their Service component commanders, in close cooperation with the supporting combatant commanders (CCDRs) and US Transportation Command (USTRANSCOM).
Joint Publication (JP) 3-35, Joint Deployment and Redeployment Operations, discusses joint deployment planning in greater detail.
(3) Employment. Employment encompasses the use of military forces and capabilities within an operational area (OA). Employment planning provides the foundation for, determines the scope of, and is limited by mobilization, deployment, and sustainment planning. Employment is primarily the responsibility of the supported combatant commanders (CCDRs) and their subordinate and supporting commanders.
Joint Publication (JP) 3-0, Joint Operations, this publication, and numerous other publications in the joint doctrine system discuss joint employment planning in greater detail.
(4) Sustainment. Sustainment is the provision of logistics and personnel services required to maintain and prolong operations until successful mission accomplishment. The focus of sustainment in joint operations is to provide the joint force commander (JFC) with the means to enable freedom of action and endurance and extend operational reach. Effective sustainment determines the depth to which the joint force can conduct decisive operations; allowing the JFC to seize, retain and exploit the initiative. Sustainment is primarily the responsibility of the supported combatant commander (CCDR)s and their Service component commanders in close cooperation with the Services, combat support agencies, and supporting commands.
Joint Publication (JP) 4-0, Joint Logistic Support, JP 1-0, Personnel Support to Joint Operations, and other joint logistic doctrine publications discuss joint sustainment planning in greater detail.
(5) Redeployment. Redeployment encompasses the movement of units, individuals, or supplies deployed in one area to another area, or to another location within the area for the purpose of further employment. Redeployment also includes the return of forces and resources to their original location and status. Redeployment is primarily the responsibility of supported commanders and their Service component commanders, in close cooperation with the supporting combatant commanders (CCDRs) and United States Transportation Command (USTRANSCOM).
Joint Publication (JP) 3-35, Joint Deployment and Redeployment Operations, discusses joint redeployment planning in greater detail.
(6) Demobilization. Demobilization is the process of transitioning a conflict or wartime military establishment and defense-based civilian economy to a peacetime configuration while maintaining national security and economic vitality. It includes the return of Reserve_ Component units, individuals, and materiel stocks to their former status. Demobilization is primarily the responsibility of the Military Departments and Services, in close cooperation with the supported commanders and their Service component commanders.
Joint Publication (JP) 4-05, Joint Mobilization Planning, discusses demobilization planning in greater detail.
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I could sift through Google, but I have seen numerous qutes and stories where senior members of the military, including then-Vice Chairman Pace, flatly state that they did not perform steps 5 and 6 at all for OIF. And it's pretty obvious that step 4 wasn't fully worked out either. What it boils down to is that regardless of what is said or written, Bush is only capable of thinking in terms of 'hit it with a bigger hammer', which only guarrantees that more people like KC will come back in body bags, and that "victory", regardless of how you define it, in not going to happen.
Posted by: legion at May 16, 2007 03:42 PM (3eWKF)
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Um, Yankee, that's an army field manual. A doncument describing a doctrine. Not a strategy. Not even a tactic. Did you actually read it?
And in the preface it makes two very important points: An organization that is geared toward winning large scale conventional warfare is exactly the wrong one for fighting an insurgency. And a unit must begin preparing to fight a specific insurgency operation months or years in advance.
This would have been a great document to have had around the whitehouse in, oh, say 2001. Pity it wan't even written until last year.
It's to late now. We do not have the man power for the operation and even if we got a draft today it'd be 2 years before we could field the additional 350-500K ground troops Patreaus needs to do the job. According to chapter 4 you need a 40 to one ratio of combat troops to civilians on the ground to have an optimal chance of success and they all need to be "culturally aware". There's 25 million Iraqi civilians. That means you need 625K ground troops who have been trained to understand the culture and at least one per platoon who speaks the local language. We just don't have that and we're not going to get it.
Right now the nasteist thing we could do to Al Qaida in Iraq is to get out and leave that Sunni terrorist cult to the mercy of the Shiite majority.
Posted by: iaintbacchus at May 16, 2007 03:54 PM (mYHGQ)
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"You now have "the plan" if you actually are willing to read it."
That's not a plan, that's a counterinsurgency manual. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad we have a counterinsurgency manual, it's just not a plan. As our Iraqi allies have proven themselves decidedly unhelpful for four years running, we're going to have to do this ourselves. To do counterisnurgency properly, we need 400-500K more troops minimal. If you doubt this, perhaps you should read you manual again and consider the manpower it will take to secure the entire country simultaenously, instead of our crruent strategy which involves clearing the same area over and over again because we simply don't have the people to hold it. As we are never going to send enough troops, our sole other alternative is to apply blunt force and rule by fear. It worked for Saddam, but we're not that kind of country, are we?
As I have said before, a part of me almost hopes that the Democrats show their classic spinelessness and fail to get the troops out of Iraq, that Bush and his people get their way from start to finish. That way, there is nobody else to blame when this inadequate "surge" fails. However, what kind of person would I be if I were to advocate the continuation of a war that I knew was pointless just to be proven right? Alas, I fear the only moral thing to do is advocate for withdrawal.
Posted by: Shochu John at May 16, 2007 06:01 PM (m4aO9)
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Both look equally halfhearted.
Yea, but on the spectrum between surrender and victory, the democrats generally stake out the ground on the surrender side and the republicans the generally stake out the ground on the victory side.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at May 16, 2007 08:13 PM (5AiPK)
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Having served with 173rd in Vietnam under both Johnson and Nixon, I can tell it does not matter who talks the toughest. There ain't no big shot Republicans son serving in combat. Opening a second front in Iraq was one of the greatest military blunders in history. Blaming the Media and people who are against the war is just a smokescreen for cowards who wouldn't serve if Bin laden was making a landing on the Maine coast. The 173rd is on it's way back to Afghanistan for it's second tour in June,to fight a reborn Taliban that was never destroyed in 2001.Had we done the job then instead of rushing off to Iraq many lives could have been spared. And make no mistake about it the thinking men and women in Iraq know this thing is over , the countdown has begun their just hoping to avoid being the last one clipped. To you fools that have been hoodwinked by Bush and Cheney's tough talk as they get ready to walk off to the the rich man's sunset .shame shame shame. It is not the Media who has the blood on their hands.
Posted by: bob at May 17, 2007 04:17 AM (PCkOR)
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May 15, 2007
Remembering a Fallen Soldier
I sincerely hope that I'm readying Steve Clemons
wrong (my bold):
But this young man did serve his nation -- but his death is so incredibly tragic, like the others -- but his even more because his well-respected father has been working hard to end this horrible, self-damaging crusade. It's incredibly sad.
Is Clemon's really saying that this son's loss is more tragic than others, because the father shares Clemon's anti-war beliefs?
Jules Crittenden, who knew Professor Bacevich, offers a much more fitting tribute.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I think it's easier to lose a son in a war you believe in. So yes, for this father it is more tragic than for another father who supports the war.
That doesn't mean it's not terrible for both. Losing a child is not something I would wish on anyone.
The older I get the more I hate the waste and stupidity of war. It is a sign that our species, at bottom, is hopelessly irrational.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at May 15, 2007 12:53 PM (kxecL)
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Well said, David. It is not a tragedy, in the Greek sense, for a hero to die for a worthy cause. It is far closer to a tragedy for a hero to die for a foolish cause brought on by a national tragic flaw.
Posted by: Shochu John at May 15, 2007 01:14 PM (m4aO9)
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The death of a US soldier is terrible. Period. When the man/woman chooses the honor of wearing the uniform he/she chooses to obey the civil leaders. The soldier does not pick and choose what battles the soldier fights.
It saddens me when any parent loses a child. But remember this soldier, as a man, chose the life he wanted to lead.
Posted by: Mekan at May 15, 2007 02:49 PM (hm8tW)
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CY:
Jules Crittenden, who knew Professor Bacevich
Might you be confused over the fact that father and son have the same name, Andrew Bacevich? The father, a professor at Boston U., is still alive. The son was not a professor.
Posted by: Lex Steele at May 15, 2007 10:04 PM (6LXo4)
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Lex, Crittenden mentioned in his article that he knew him.
There seems to be a point that seems to escape some, most soldiers and military in general aren't warmongers. They are average, every day people that believe that our country, right or wrong, is worth defending. They don't want to go out in a blaze of glory, that's Hollywood. Most just want the world to be a safer place to raise their families. When I see backhanded comments about what some think our guys ideas are, I wonder if they ever talked to any.
Is it irrational to try to provide security and establish peace in a country where individual rights didn't exhist before present? (Never mind why we WENT to war, we are there now and should not leave it in turmoil).
Is it really a foolish cause to try to give people a chance at freedom? To let them live their lives without fear? To instill in them a desire for a better life?
He did not "Choose" to die in battle, he chose to protect the ideas of this country and protect freedom and democracy around the world. The individual battle, ANY individual battle is not worth dying for, it is the belief and ideas that he held that make his death not in vain.
Posted by: Retired Navy at May 16, 2007 05:29 AM (0EcTE)
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Lex, I'm sorry that you're too lazy to actually click the link provided (it clearly answers that question).
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at May 16, 2007 07:21 AM (9y6qg)
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I feel bad for any soldier who dies in war. Even worse for the ones who think they are fighting in Iraq for our freedoms (how could anyone fall for that canard?).
On the other hand, I'll believe he's dead when I see his flag-draped casket on TV.
(Fat chance.)
Posted by: Robert at May 16, 2007 01:51 PM (VTtVl)
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CY:
Lex, I'm sorry that you're too lazy to actually click the link provided (it clearly answers that question).
I was genuinely trying to be helpful. You said 'knew', which is past tense, so I thought perhaps you were confused.
I was confused also because I can't figure out why you are outraged about Steve Clemons's remark. Obviously it's easier for a father to accept the death of his son when believes the son died for a noble cause. That's common sense.
Posted by: Lex Steele at May 16, 2007 06:36 PM (BKFQg)
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The Eschatology of the Coming Nuclear War
U.S. News and World Report has a short post up concerning the simulation of
nuclear detonations in the Middle East:
A simulation has determined that any major use of nuclear forces in the Middle East in the next decade would most likely be "existential," meaning that an attack would amount to an effort to destroy a nation and the ability of its people to ever recover from a nuclear exchange. The briefers determined that Israel would be vulnerable to such attacks--and so would any Iranian attacker. The simulation was developed by the National Defense University in Washington, D.C., to examine the nuclear dynamics likely to develop in the Middle East between 2010 and 2020.
"In fact," noted a Center for Strategic and International Studies summary of the briefing released today, "a nation like Iran--with so much of its economy, culture, and government concentrated in Tehran and a few other cities, might prove to be far more vulnerable to the forces Israel could develop than Israel would be to the forces Iran could hope to deploy" until the end of the 2010-2020 time period. The briefing covers the use of nuclear ground bursts, fallout, longer-term death rates, and population-killing strikes. Other targets will likely include oil and gas distribution and loading facilities, desalination and water purification plants, electric power plants, and refineries--targets likely to affect the general population.
First, is there ever a "minor" use of nuclear forces?
But that isn't my main focus here.
The writer of this piece seems to imply that Iran's vulnerability to a nuclear exchange would keep it from starting a nuclear exchange with Israel. To make such an assumption, if this is the writer's intent, is a failure of cultural understanding.
It would perhaps be fair to apply Western standards and values to the state of Israel, as so much of the Israeli population emigrated to Israel from western nations, and their society and government hold with Westernized cultural values, but to attempt to apply those same cultural values to an Iranian government run by this mullacracy is to avoid the plain fact that Iran's leaders have values shaped by a radical theology all their own.
The Iranian government--and hence its rapidly expanding nuclear weapons program, is slaved to the beliefs of a radical Shia sect called the Hojjatieh, a cult within Shia Islam so radical that it was outlawed in 1983 by Ayatollah Khomeini.
As notes the Persian Journal:
According to Shi'ite Muslim teaching, Abul-Qassem Mohammad, the 12th leader whom Shi'ites consider descended from the Prophet Mohammed, disappeared in 941 but will return at the end of time to lead an era of Islamic justice.
"Our revolution's main mission is to pave the way for the reappearance of the 12th Imam, the Mahdi," Ahmadinejad said in the speech to Friday Prayers leaders from across the country.
"Therefore, Iran should become a powerful, developed and model Islamic society."
"Today, we should define our economic, cultural and political policies based on the policy of Imam Mahdi's return. We should avoid copying the West's policies and systems," he added, newspapers and local news agencies reported.
Ahmadinejad refers to the return of the 12th Imam, also known as the Mahdi, in almost all his major speeches since he took office in August.
A September address to the U.N. General Assembly contained long passages on the Mahdi which confused Western diplomats and irked those from Sunni Muslim countries who believe in a different line of succession from Mohammed.
This fascination has prompted wild stories to circulate.
Presidential aides have denied a popular rumor that he ordered his cabinet to write a letter to the 12th Imam and throw it down a well near the holy city of Qom where thousands of pilgrims come each week to pray and drop messages to the Imam.
But what really has tongues wagging is the possibility that Ahmadinejad's belief in the 12th Imam's return may be linked to the supposed growing influence of a secretive society devoted to the Mahdi which was banned in the early 1980s.
Founded in 1953 and used by the Shah of Iran to try to eradicate followers of the Bahai faith, the Hojjatieh Society is governed by the conviction that the 12th Imam's return will be hastened by the creation of chaos on earth.
How seriously should we take the ruling Hojjatieh sect?
The executive summary of one study provided to the U.S. military by a strategic planning contractor stated:
Ultra-religious Shia clerics and Ahmadinejad are dedicated to the near-term messianic return of the 12th Imam via the creation of an apocalypse.
I don't think it gets much clearer than that.
The contention is that not only do the Hojjatieh anticipate the "creation of chaos on earth," they actively seek to create an apocalypse. Based upon their public pronoucements and nuclear weapons research, it seems quite clear that their preferred method is to instigate a nuclear attack against Israel. They know that Israel will respond with a retaliatory nuclear strike of their own, and are in fact, are more than likely counting on it.
It is this Israeli return nuclear strike on Tehran that Ahmadinejad and the Hojjatieh are counting upon to trigger the Madhi's return.
Iran and Ahmadinejad have been very clear in their desire to see Israel "wiped off the map," with multiple threatening pronouncements, and Ahmadinejad himself seems quite convinced that he is on a mission from Allah.
Mortal concerns and fears have little importance for an Iranian leadership seemingly bent on using a nuclear war to force a messianic return. Tens of millions may perish because a once-outlawed cult thinks a nuclear war will convince a four-year-old messiah to crawl out of a well in which he's been hiding 1,066 years.
I sadly fear that Democratic Party principles of avoidance will force our government to continue to discount the Iranian nuclear threat until after Iranian missiles are already arcing in towards Tel Aviv, at which point any further action against Iran will be addressed to a relative handful of survivors.
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Posted by: Bill Faith at May 15, 2007 12:47 PM (n7SaI)
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Why does anyone think Iran would be silly enough to launch a nuke attack themselves? They have many willing allies to press the button for them. If this is the case, will any in the West be willing to attack those that are responsible without hard evidence of the fact? No.
Unfortunately this is not a Democrat Vs. Republican issue any longer. Both the Dems and the Repubs fail to call a snake a snake, or, more importantly, kill the snake that is in their midsts.
Posted by: Mekan at May 15, 2007 02:54 PM (hm8tW)
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First, is there ever a "minor" use of nuclear forces?
The smallest fission device Ted Taylor ever designed for the US arsenal is smaller than a grapefruit.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at May 15, 2007 03:36 PM (5AiPK)
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Let's assume you're right about Iran being suicidal. Why wait for nukes? They've got plenty of conventional warheads, and probably chemical ones as well. Why not fire 'em all at Israel and then welcome the incoming rounds?
In truth, much is made of this '12th Iman' thing, but it's a little like Christianity's Apocalypse: something you might even believe in, but are not going to seriously try to trigger.
Posted by: gregdn at May 15, 2007 03:49 PM (jVDxL)
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The reason they dont use conventional munitions is because they want to at least hurt Israel. Conventional warheads with limited guidance are just sabers to rattle. A nuke does a huge amount of damage, doesnt need to be guided as well, and it radiates the area.
A chemical attack would cause casualties, but not nearly as many a nuclear strike. Plus it only kills, it doesnt destroy. Being a WMD though, Israel would most likely retalliate with nukes. They might be suicidal, but they wont kill themselves for nothing.
Posted by: jbiccum at May 15, 2007 04:17 PM (NiTuu)
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Q: How do you know someone is trying to over-inflate the Iranian threat?
A: They pretend Ahmadinejad is actually in charge of Iran.
Sorry kids, strict limit of one botched war per generation. That's Iraq.
Posted by: Shochu John at May 16, 2007 11:16 AM (m4aO9)
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Q: How can you tell if someone is a liberal?
A. When they purposefully misstate what someone else says, so they can continue to stick their heads in the sand.
What part of "Iranian government run by this mullacracy," "Iran's leaders," "their own," "the ruling Hojjatieh sect," "Ultra-religious Shia clerics and Ahmadinejad," "their public pronoucements," "Ahmadinejad and the Hojjatieh," "Iran and Ahmadinejad," "Iranian leadership," and "once-outlawed cult" (all pulled from the post itself) would make anyone with two firing brain cells interpret Ahmadinejad as the power "in charge of Iran?"
I'm quite cleary not referring to one man.
You're intellectually dishonest, John, and purposefully so.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at May 16, 2007 11:40 AM (9y6qg)
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Let me spell this out more clearly. This entire post, and do correctly me if I'm wrong, is based on the notion that,as yous say, "
he Iranian government--and hence its rapidly expanding nuclear weapons program, is slaved to the beliefs of a radical Shia sect called the Hojjatieh, a cult within Shia Islam so radical that it was outlawed in 1983 by Ayatollah Khomeini."
Slave to the beliefs? Interesting. And what would make the entire Iranian government slave to such beliefs? Because, as it says in the very headline of the linked Persian Journal article, "Iran president paves the way for arabs' imam return" Indeed, the entire article is about how this school of thought influences Ahmadinejad. You yourself note that this little millenarian cult was banned in Iran over twenty years ago. So, now let's turn this into a logic puzzle. If you take evidence that the Hojjatieh controls A-Jad to mean that the Hojjatieh controls the Iranian government, it must mean that you believe A-Jad controls the Iranian government.
As I am a guest here, I shant return your accusations of purposeful intellectual dishonesty in kind, but will instead give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you simply do not understand the ultimate logical meaning of your statements.
Posted by: Shochu John at May 16, 2007 01:00 PM (m4aO9)
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My apologies, John.
Now seeing your most recent comment, I realize my error: I didn't make things simple enough for you to understand them.
Ayatollah Khomeini? Dead. So are his edicts, including the one that outlawed the Hojjatieh. The reason their outlawing was cited was to show that this bunch of nutters was too crazy even for their crazies. The edict, however, died with Khomeini.
The Hojjatieh not only exist, they are the power beind the Iranian Beeblebrox, Ahmadinejad, not hte other way around. Now, all of my other readers seem to grasp this without having it explained to them, so perhaps you're simply the lowest common denominator, as it were.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at May 16, 2007 01:30 PM (9y6qg)
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"The Hojjatieh not only exist, they are the power beind the Iranian Beeblebrox, Ahmadinejad, not hte other way around."
Swing and a miss. Where did I say A-jad controlled these people? Why don't you got ahead and point that out for me.
What I said was:
"If you take evidence that the Hojjatieh controls A-Jad to mean that the Hojjatieh controls the Iranian government, it must mean that you believe A-Jad controls the Iranian government."
Please, for the love of God, take the time to read over that statement. Read it out loud to yourself if you have to There is little value to engaging in name calling because you disagree with the comments I didn't make.
Posted by: Shochu John at May 16, 2007 01:52 PM (m4aO9)
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This is an excellent message dealing with the analogy of faith and other matters of the interpretation of prophecy.
http://polemos.net/Audio/Waldron,%20Eschatology%2017%20Revelation%2020%20Pt%201.mp3
http://polemos.net/Eschatology.html
Posted by: Jonathan at May 17, 2007 08:55 PM (mfVi1)
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A couple of points - having read through the released briefing from CSIS, the author doesn't imply one way or the other that Iran would be deterred from use of nukes - it
does however, note that it
may be an existential for Israel (or it might be able to recover in 10 years), but it is much less clear that it will be recoverable over something like a 50 year timeframe for Iran.
And @ Sochu John, your argument seems to hinge on wheter Ahmadinejad is in charge or not. As far as I can tell, the control of strategic devices would most likely rest with the IRGC, not with the regular military, and in any case, I can't think of a single government in the history of mankind that was either totally under control of any single individual or completely in control of the nation as a whole.
Maybe I just don't see what you're driving at, but I don't get how the relative command-and-control authority of Ahmadinejad over all sectors of the state is relevant to his C3I over the nuclear deterrent, particularly keeping in mind that the creation of the IRGC was intended specifically to tackle the military/civil relationship.
BRD
Posted by: Bravo Romeo Delta at May 18, 2007 09:52 AM (7XogM)
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May 14, 2007
Al Qaeda Warns U.S. To Stop Search For Missing Soldiers
On Saturday, a U.S. patrol was ambushed near Mahmoudiya, Iraq. Four U.S. soldiers and an Iraqi soldier acting as their interpreter was killed in the ambush, and three soldiers are missing. The Islamic State of Iraq (ISI), an al Qaeda front group, is claiming responsibility for the attack, and
has warned the thousands of coalition forces in the area to stop looking for the missing soldiers.
While we all obviously hope that the three missing soldiers will be recovered alive, I suspect that they were never captured alive to begin with, a sad suspicion shared at Hot Air. Knowing the fate in store for them if they did surrender--brutal torture followed by a YouTubed beheading--our soldiers would most likely fight to the death.
Because of this, I suspect al Qaeda managed a successful ambush and body thievery, but captured no living prisoners.
The al Qaeda cry to quit looking for the captured soldiers was likely issued from fears that the on-going search would further disrupt al Qaeda terrorist cells and turn up weapons caches. Thus far, two terrorists have been killed, four others wounded, and 100 people have been detained as the military sweep south of Baghdad continues.
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I thought they wanted us to stay in Iraq. Wouldn't they want us on the streets. Al Qaeda is sending me mixed signals.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at May 14, 2007 03:54 PM (oC8nQ)
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They should have been doing this a long time ago. I hate to see it came to some soldiers getting killed for them to properly search an area.
Posted by: Retired Navy at May 15, 2007 05:00 AM (cqZXM)
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So Al Qaeda wants to tell the U.S. military what to do? Okay, AQ, where are you located? Come out, come out wherever you are!
Posted by: Tom TB at May 15, 2007 07:09 AM (2nDll)
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Dollard: Starving Parasites
Pat Dollard, Hollywood agent turned combat filmmaker and IED magnet, is echoing a sentiment I've been hearing more and more from fellow combat journalists: the war in Iraq is going very badly...
for al Qaeda:
Terrorists are parasites. They rely on a host body to support them. Now they can terrorize a host body into providing them support, but that will only go so far. Ultimately, the host body must be somewhat sympathetic to the terrorists, or else, by sheer dint of numbers, the members of the host body will be able to reject the terrorists. These two principles explain the entire history of Al QaedaÂ’s reign over Al Anbar. Al Anbar, like Al Qaeda, is a Sunni entity. The people of Al Anbar were sympathetic enough to Al Qaeda that they provided them sanctuary, support and even manpower - which is to say, the very lifeblood that this parasite required. Finally, the Sunnis of Al Anbar had enough of the bleak and empty future, and very bloody present, that comprised the entirety of Al QaedaÂ’s offerings. And so the host body rejected the parasite. The parasite is now in its last possible refuge, the mixed Sunni/Shiite Triangle of Death & Diyala Province areas, just south and northeast of Baghdad, respectively. My time in Iraq started there, and will likely end there. Along with Al QaedaÂ’s.
There is a reason neither Al Qaeda or the Iranian Shiite Insurgents have no traction in Kurdistan. There is no sympathetic and compliant host body. There is a reason Al Qaeda has no traction in the southern/eastern Shiite areas of Iraq. There is no compliant, sympathetic (which is to say, Sunni) host body. There is only one place left with enough of a sympathetic, compliant host body for Al Qaeda to keep itself alive in. This is the mixed Sunni/Shiite Triangle of Death. An appropriate appellation for the battlefield of IraqÂ’s Apocalypse with its Public Enemy #1. Iraqis, Al Qaeda, U.S. forces. A triangle of death, indeed.
We're not hearing very much like this from the professional media nor the U.S. military, for very understandable and strikingly similar reasons.
The media staked out their narrative to a doomed war long ago, and will only begin to back off of that position once they are sure that al Qaeda,
and the Sunni insurgency is nearing collapse. The Iraqi government, U.S. government, and Coalition military and police forces are likewise cautious about overstating successes knowing that previous claims of a faltering insurgency have turned out to be false.
But Dollard's comments are part of a low, growing rumble from observers who have seen Iraq firsthand. Bill Roggio, J.D. Johannes, and others have been noting for several months the turnaround in al Anbar province, formerly the heart of the Sunni insurgency, as the Anbar Awakening has seen the overwhelming majority of the Sunni tribes once loyal to al Qaeda and the Sunni insurgency reject the terrorists, and accept the U.S. and coalition forces as allies. It is these tribes that are now leading the hunt for al Qaeda, joining the Iraqi police and military in record numbers, and when they cannot get into official government security positions fast enough to hunt the terrorists, using their own ad hoc tribal militias to establish neighborhood security checkpoints and choke al Qaeda off and attack and kill al Qaeda aligned tribes.
This Awakening movement has spread as al Qaeda becomes the hunted in Anbar. al Qaeda continues its flight to Diyala, only to find the Sunni Awakening spreading to Diyala as well.
The media, quick to notice stumbling blocks and setbacks, seems unable to mention the obvious truth that al Qaeda and their Sunni allies, along with similar efforts by Shia militias trained and equipped by Iran, are also in their own version of a surge to counter our own.
Shia death squads will step up attacks against Sunni civilians in an effort to stoke Sunni militancy, just as the Islamic State of Iraq, a Sunni insurgent umbrella group, attempts to goad Sunnis into attacks against Shia, and al Qaeda continues to indiscriminately target Sunni, Shia, and Kurd to increases tensions among all groups.
What the U.S. military is hoping to accomplish with the COIN doctrine will not end the insurgency overnight, nor was that ever the promise. What it does intend, and where it is succeeding, is in engaging the Iraqis and helping civilians tired of war turn on Sunni, Shia, and al Qaeda militants among them.
As Dollard and others have noted, and as the British noted in Mayala, insurgencies are only viable as long as the population will support them. While it typically takes a decade or longer to completely defeat an insurgency, they rarely (never?) succeed once the bulk of the population turns against them. Once that tipping point is reached, much more blood may yet be spilled, but the final outcome all but assured.
Dollard is correct when he states al Qaeda in Iraq may end in Diyala. The tipping point against them seems to have already been reached in al Anbar, with the bulk of their former allies turning against them, and now hunting them down like dogs. As the Diyala Awakening gathers momentum, al Qaeda and aligned insurgents will no doubt mount more spectacular, bloody attacks in an attempt to intimidate the population into compliance. Like in al Anbar, those attacks are only likely to fuel anti-al Qaeda, anti-insurgency sentiment.
It is still very possible, considering the political climate, that we can still lose the war in Iraq because of its unpopularity here in the United States, and a corrupt and incompetent Iraqi government apparently more interested in personal profit than national unity and reconciliation. Our military is stretched close to its limits, and the will of Iran and Syria to continue supporting various militias and insurgent groups does not appear to lack resolve, or any real consequences for their support from either the United Nations or the United States.
The governments of the United States, Great Britain, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia and perhaps a dozen other countries near and far are attempting to shape Iraq's future for their own best interests. The various religions, sects, and tribes within Iraq have formed and split alliances over the past four-plus years, attempting to do what they think is best for themselves. With all of these internal and external actors attempting to exert power and influence, it is ultimately up to the Iraqi people to determine which fate will envelope their nation. Perhaps the rise of The Awakening al Anbar and Diyala are an indication that the future they are choosing is one of hope amidst the carnage.
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I've seen this in several places and I know this will come as a surprise to some of your more right-leaning readers, but I hope this is true.
Yes, a liberal who wants us to succeed in Iraq. Shocking, I know.
As for the Iraqis finally getting tired of getting blown up every time they go out for a loaf of bread, it's about d**n time.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at May 14, 2007 09:43 AM (kxecL)
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May 11, 2007
Mort Kondrake's Final Solution
Writing today at RealClearPolitics, Mort Kondrake's basic solution to the problems poised by the Iraq War is
genocidally specific:
Without prejudging whether President Bush's "surge" policy will work, the administration and its critics ought to be seriously thinking about a Plan B, the "80 percent solution" - also known as "winning dirty." Right now, the administration is committed to building a unified, reconciled, multisectarian Iraq - "winning clean." Most Democrats say that's what they want, too. But it may not be possible.
The 80 percent alternative involves accepting rule by Shiites and Kurds, allowing them to violently suppress Sunni resistance and making sure that Shiites friendly to the United States emerge victorious.
There is a certain simple genius to Kondrake's formulation.
If you don't like the problems poised by 20% of the population, simply eliminate the problematic population.
Why would anyone object?
Allah tackles this "solution" as well.
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Don't Plan B used to be call "fighting a war."
Posted by: Anh at May 11, 2007 12:42 PM (ScKRZ)
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What's a little genocide between friends? Its like doing your first serial killing. The first is tough, the rest are easy.
I've often said, once you give up on those quaint notions of integrity, all things become possible.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at May 11, 2007 01:00 PM (pGj0D)
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The only Plan B that works for me is making Plan A work. OTOH, maybe PA has a point; the world didn't stop turning after he Cambodian slaughter. Of course the Khmer Rouge didn't follow us home, either.
I added an excerpt and link to my 2007.05.11 Dem Perfidy // Islamism Delenda Est Roundup
Posted by: Bill Faith at May 11, 2007 03:44 PM (n7SaI)
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Ah yes, winning is always secondary to morality in the eyes of those who are not at risk nor have sacrificed anything. Let us maintain the mooral high ground as we retreat and proclaim our moral supremacy. That should safeguard us against the consequences of defeat at the hands of a foe who will neither accept civilization's views of morality nor accept anything less than the West's utter defeat and enslavement. We have our morality to keep us warm at night. I suspect this is what the French told themselves in 1940.
Posted by: Thomas Jackson at May 12, 2007 11:45 PM (YXXuO)
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What are you complaining about? Kondracke is a right-of-centre slug that works for a Republican News Channel that likes to pretend to provide fairness and balance. For you to complain about what he has to say is similar to a child at the zoo screaming angrily at his parents that the monkey in the cage next to him isn't entertaining enough.
Posted by: Tom at May 15, 2007 03:06 PM (Hajdx)
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Surrendercrats Threaten War Effort, Military Pay
Once again, Congressional Democrats show which side they support in the Iraq War, and it
isn't ours:
The Democratic-controlled House voted Thursday night to pay for military operations in Iraq on an installment plan, defying President Bush's threat of a second straight veto in a fierce test of wills over the unpopular war.
The 221-205 vote was largely along party lines and sent the measure to a cool reception in the Senate, where Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., is seeking a compromise with the White House and Republicans.
The bill was passed by House Democrats only as an act of political gamesmanship with our soldiers lives, as they that knew it would likely die in the Senate.
The continuing failure of anti-victory House Democrats to deliver a viable war funding bill is already impacting the military:
Delays in getting an emergency supplemental war-funding bill approved are causing disruption within the Defense Department, particularly among programs at home, Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates said today. The Army has slowed spending in numerous areas to free up money to fully fund wartime costs since President Bush vetoed war-spending legislation because it set a date for the return of combat forces from Iraq, Gates told the Senate Appropriations Committee's defense subcommittee.
The bill included $93.4 billion to help fund U.S. forces in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere in the global war on terror, but stipulated that U.S. combat troops be out of Iraq by Aug. 31, 2008. It also included costs unrelated to the war.
Bush vetoed the bill because he rejects establishing a deadline for troop withdrawals, insisting that such decisions must be based on conditions in the war zone.
Gates told Congress today that delays in getting a spending bill approved are having "a growing impact here at home."
"The Army is already trying to cope with this," he said. Spending in various programs has slowed or stopped altogether, he said. Defense contracts are being withheld; hiring of civilian employees has slowed; and bases have begun resorting to month-to-month service contracts for services and supplies.
The failure of Democrats to fund our military at war has some U.S. Servicemen wondering if their paychecks may stop. It sounds like it's time for an important action alert:
Is it possible airmen might not get paid due to the rising costs of the war?
That's what many airmen have wanted to know since the Pentagon requested to divert $1.6 billion from the Navy and Air Force personnel accounts to the Army.
The Air Force has sent conflicting answers in the past three weeks. Last month, the Air Force hinted in a statement sent to Stars and Stripes that it was possible such a move could affect airmenÂ’s paychecks.
On Monday, an Air Force spokeswoman said that would "never" happen. A day later, Maj. Morshe Araujo said she made a mistake and such a scenario could happen if the money is not returned.
However, the Air Force is optimistic about the money being restored.
"I misspoke," said Araujo, a public affairs officer in Washington, D.C., on Tuesday. "If the money is not returned or restored, there is a possibility."
Some might argue that servicemembers are underpaid, but it is not believed there has ever been a time in modern history that troops have not paid, especially while the country is at war.
Chet Curtis, director of Policy and Communications for the Air Force Association, said he couldn't recall off the top of his head whether such a thing has ever happened.
The association, an independent nonprofit Air Force advocate group, is calling upon its members to contact the Bush administration and members of Congress and urge them to boost funding for the Air Force.
The association put out an "Action Alert" on its Website under the headline: Air Force Funding Critical.
Although the Air Force is confident Congress will pass a supplemental bill and restore the funding to the personnel accounts, the service said on Tuesday it needs the money to pay their people.
But just remember...
...they support the troops.
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These people drive me crazy! No war is popular, but this war must be fought and won. This is nothing more than political grandstanding. The problem is they are standing on the backs of our soldiers and on American's safety.
Posted by: Mekan at May 11, 2007 09:04 AM (a8Oey)
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I have come to think that when the Dems say that they support the troops...the mean the enemy's troops.
Posted by: David M at May 11, 2007 09:06 AM (6+obf)
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Lex, Lex, RSS any comment? When they are cutting into the personnel side the cuts are REALLY deep. I can feel the pain in the program offices as I sit and type this. Some programs are dead, some are just idling, and some are stalled completely. The frequent salami slice cuts are over, and real meat is being cut everywhere. Contractors are or will be laying off.
But its for the better good. Its that awful President's fault.
Posted by: CoRev at May 11, 2007 09:24 AM (0U8Ob)
Posted by: David M at May 11, 2007 10:20 AM (6+obf)
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I think it is time that the the executive branch consolidate some departments. Department of the EPA...now part of DOD. Department of State...now part of DOD. Just keep the consolidation going until you have enough budget for the military.
Recall all Congressional protections and freebies..ie big a$$ jets for Pelosi.
Posted by: mekan at May 11, 2007 02:56 PM (a8Oey)
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I'm sure the Fifth Column will hit this thread soon. They're not anti-war, they're on the other side.
If they do have to stop paying the troops, I hope they start with bases in Democrat districts... and a training day on the meaning of "enemies foreign and domestic" wouldn't be out of place either.
Posted by: SDN at May 11, 2007 04:31 PM (6yn+d)
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It is important to remember that the funds held up now are an emergency appropriation for the war on terror. If holding up this money causes pain in terms of personnel accounts or equipment shortages, the Administration is as much to blame as the Democrats for not including this money in the regular budgetary process. They know it is not an emergency, but they call it that for political reasons--mostly so they can say that they that the budget is closer to balance than it really is.
It is telling that the Air Force spokeswoman initially said that pay would never be held up, and then changed her tune. I think she had it right the first time--in my 20 years, I saw budget battles several times, usually at the end of fiscal years. Even when the appropriations bills came late, we got paid--that last thing to be cut would be servicemember's paychecks. On that you can rely as a certainty--if this were truly a possiblity, even a Democratic Congress would pass a bill to fund military pay in a NY minute. No politician is stupid enough to go down that road.
This is really just another straw man. If you really believe that Democratic politicians actually support the enemy, hate America, and want us to lose, you belong in the same category as those who think Bush and Cheney planned 9-11 so he could funnel money to Halliburton. Right or wrong, both sides believe they are doing the right thing for the country. As CY has said before, there is little value in name calling and silly accusations--this debate needs substantive discussion based on facts.
I think Congress is trying to execute its duty as the legislative branch, and because Democrats run the place now, that duty is interpreted differently than it was under the GOP. One of its Constitutionally mandated duties is managing the armed forces and declaring war. It wants to use funding to manage the military (in terms of training and deployment length), and perhaps to declare this war over. I think this is the wrong approach--they should just vote on whether to demand an end to the war, and if they lose, they should tell the President that next year he will have to put all military funding in the normal budget process, and deal with it then. If they think training and deployment issues need to be addressed, they should do that separately.
But I would caution those who accuse Democratic politicians of "political grandstanding" or "supporting the enemy troops." These guys are doing this because they believe that the American people want this thing brought to a close. Many polls support this view, and Democrats are reacting to them. They think they have a mandate, and they are trying to execute it. In one sense an "up or down vote" strategy is a politically sound one--it gets GOP reps and Senators on record as voting to continue the war. This would work in some districts, but would probably work agains Republicans in others (such as those that elect GOP reps even as they vote for Dem Presidential candidates).
In the final analysis, we will know soon enough. In about 18 months we will have new elections. Those who believe that Americans support the war, send the message that they will continue it. Those who believe that we are on the wrong track, and need a drastically new strategy (one based on police work and diplomacy, for example) need to make that case. If Americans support the war, we will see new GOP majorities and perhaps a President Giuliani. If not, the Dems will increase their control over Congress and elect a President (hopefully not Hillary).
I am willing to take bets.
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at May 12, 2007 10:05 AM (GYgSv)
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THESE PHRASES about shooting officers and generals, are taken almost verbatim from "The Internationale", the theme song of Communists and Socialists. They have been singing it for decades, at many many Socialist gatherings and meetings.
HOW COULD anyone be so naive as to call these people 'Liberals' or 'Progressives'? They are so obviously NOT.
AN amazed Canadian.
Pro Patria
More:
http://www.box.net/shared/7dnvimtb5z
Posted by: DemocracyRules at May 12, 2007 09:17 PM (L/SIz)
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Posted by R. Stanton Scott at May 12, 2007 10:05 AM
I agree that congress will pay the military. I remember when Regan was in, there was one year we only got paid because of a stop-gap measure that was passed by a huge majority while they (Both sides of the isle) fought over the rest of the budget.
I also don't believe the Dems support our enemies, but really do believe they are misguided in how they do what they believe is best for our troops and America in general.
This is our Soverign Nation, we can't allow what happened on 9-11 happen again. We can't be bullied by terrorists or it will never end. The line in the sand has already been drawn, we need to toe the line.
Posted by: Retired Navy at May 14, 2007 05:35 AM (cqZXM)
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Retired Navy: And I think it is the GOP that is misguided about how best to manage our military services and protect the nation. I believe they have drawn the line in the sand in the wrong place, and once they drew it they began to toe it incompetently. The American people seem to agree in growing numbers.
The claim that something must be working because we have not been attacked here since 2001 is nothing more than a talking point. On 9.10.01, the claim that Clinton's anti-terrorism policy must be working, because we had not been attacked for 8 years, seemed a valid one. Not so, as it turned out so tragically.
We can no more completely eliminate the possiblity of future terrorist attacks than we can eliminate the possiblity of future liquor store robberies. Bad people are out there, and they are not going away. We can manage the problem to some degree--minimize the damage when it occurs, and punish actors--but society will always be under attack.
But these attacks are not an existential one. We should not allow terrorists to bully us, but the fact is that our "Sovereign Nation" is not under an existential threat from terrorists any more than capitalism is threatened by petty criminals. No al-Q'aida "Caliphate" is going to conquer the US, and Americans will never be forced to worhsip Allah in mosques against their will. If disagree, you have less faith in our military forces, and the American people at large, than I.
Since we cannot eliminate terrorism completely, and the threat is at any rate not an existential one, we have to address the moral implications of our anti-terrorism policy. We have killed thousands of people in defense of a nation that is not going to die. We torture and kill innocent people because we are afraid to die. Is this morally acceptable because our system is somehow special, or because our lives are somehow more valuable? It is important to remember that every time we bomb a neighborhood to kill terrorists we kill someone's sister or mother. From their perspective, it is often we who are the terrorists.
Thinking of terrorism this way is difficult, and in many ways it boils down to a question of "who started it?" At some point, who struck the first blow becomes less important than asking ourselves some difficult moral questions, and wondering: What would Jesus do?
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at May 14, 2007 09:06 AM (Bg7n2)
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May 10, 2007
Now Or Later
They keep telling us we're
not at war with Iran:
U.S.-led forces conducted a raid in the Baghdad neighborhood of Sadr City early Thursday, killing three militants as they tried to break up a cell accused of smuggling weapons from Iran to fight U.S. forces, the military said.
The raid was part of the military's 12-week-old Baghdad security plan, meant to tackle the Sunni-led insurgents and Shiite militias and bring order to the violence-wracked Iraqi capital.
Just after midnight, a joint U.S.-Iraqi force on a raid in the southern part of the Shiite slum of Sadr City, came under fire from two buildings, the military said in a statement. After a gunbattle, the soldiers called in an airstrike that killed three armed insurgents, it said.
The force was searching for a cell suspected of smuggling weapons, including the devastating explosively formed penetrators, from Iran, the military said. The group was also accused of sending militants to Iran for training, the military said. The force detained four of the suspected militants during the raid, the military said.
This on-going Iranian involvement in Iraq should force Americans, particularly Congressional Democrats and waffling Republicans, to consider what will happen if American forces precipitously withdraw from Iraq. Iran, accused of training thousands of Shia insurgents and supplying weapons to both Shia and Sunni insurgents, is posing to fill the vacuum left by an American withdrawal.
If Democrats are successful in their neo-copperhead attempts to force an American withdrawal, many experts and long-time journalists expect that the Iranian attempts to take over Iraq by proxy may result in genocide and a clear PR victory for al Qaeda. Others rightly fear that such a threat will draw Saudi Arabia into a regional war based in Iraq, where Shias funded, trained, and equipped by Iran, will square off against Iraqi Sunnis trained, funded, and equipped by Saudi Arabia.
If the proxy war is contained to Iraq, the overwhelming numerical superiority of Shias in Iraq may very well lead to a either a mass exodus of Sunnis, or a mass genocide dwarfing the civilian casualties of the Iraq War thus far. The failed state would presumably fall under Iranian control from Baghdad south.
If the war is not contained to Iraq, and open hostilities break out between Iran and Saudi Arabia and other Sunni Gulf States such as Kuwait, Qatar, and the United Arab Emirates, we could very well see a more expanded, more violent version of the 1984-87 Tanker War. In that conflict, which resulted from the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq War, Iran and Iraq began targeting merchant shipping in an attempt to cut off each other's oil exports. Seventy-one merchant ships, including oil tankers, were attacked in 1984 alone, forcing Lloyds of London to increase insurance rates on tankers and leading to a twenty-five percent reduction in Gulf shipping. Since the 1980s, advances in military missile technology has made it possible for all sides potentially involved in a regional war to unilaterally stop all Persian Gulf shipping. The result of such a stoppage would threaten global oil supplies, and the economic and national security of many nations.
This is at a minimum. It could get much worse.
A U.S. pullout in 2008 could potentially lead to an economically-necessitated re-invasion of Iraq and a direct conflict with Iran within the next five years.
While Iran's naval and air force assets could be theoretically be reduced with minimal U.S. losses, a scenario predicted by DOD strategic planning contractor VII, Inc. called "Yalu II," in a January 2006 document called "Iranian President-Islamic Eschatology: Near Term Implications," posits that the Iranian military may respond to their air and naval shortcomings by sending up to 350,000 conventional Army forces, supplemented by roughly 1,800 tanks and 2,300 towed and self-propelled artillery pieces, across southern Iraq. This scenario was presented by VII before threats of a wider regional war were being discussed. I would add to VII's assessment that Iran may do more than invade southern Iraq, and may opt to attack Saudi Arabia though Kuwait, threatening, at least on paper, King Khalid Military City, the Saudi Persian Gulf city of Jubail and the Saudi military bases concentrated around Jubail, and the Saudi Capital of Riyahd itself.
Ultimately, such a direct assault on Saudi Arabia would probably lead to an Iranian defeat as their supply lines would be very vulnerable to Saudi Arabian and allied air superiority, but by then, Iran would have either captured or destroyed Iraqi and Kuwaiti oil terminals and wells. Were this scenario to play out, this would mean that Iran would control or would have destroyed 32% of Gulf oil production, based upon 2003 estimates.
This sequence of events is of course speculative.
Iran may very well be content to use their Shia militia allies to overthrow Iraq internally, and confine themselves to isolating Iraqi Sunnis and Kurds instead of eliminating them wholesale. They would then control roughly 20% of Persian Gulf oil exports directly, while still being able to threaten the 90% of Persian Gulf oil exported by supertanker through the Straits of Hormuz as they continue down the path of developing nuclear weapons.
What is the best way to head off either scenario?
The answer is obvious: keep Coalition forces engaged in Iraq targeting Sunni and Shia extremist cells like the one American soldiers attacked today. Force the Iraq government into making progress on unresolved issues, and perhaps consider replacing Prime Minster Maliki if he fails to make progress, by supporting other candidates for the position. Keep engaging Sunni and Shia moderates, while building up Iraqi police and Army forces. While internal Iraqi groups are relying on external forces to build their powerbases, America should continue to support that national cultural, political, and security needs of Iraq. Continue the COIN strategy to root out insurgents and develop regional and national Iraqi unity. Continue to support insurgent movements in Iran to destabilize the mullacracy.
It should be blindingly obvious to all sides concerned that a failure to resolve the political and security needs of Iraq now will only necessitate a later, perhaps larger and longer military reentry into the region, after what many predict will be a large and unnecessary loss of civilian lives.
After four years of muddled strategies, real progress is being made in Iraq. Al Anbar, long the home of the Sunni insurgency and al Qaeda's launching ground, has turned against al Qaeda and is joining the political process, developments that have been reported on scarcely in the western media. A similar movement is now emerging in Diyala Province, as Iraqis target, hunt and kill al Qaeda terrorists and the insurgents of the Islamic State of Iraq.
You will have a very hard time discovering this through the traditional media, however, as they tend to underestimate the importance of such tectonic cultural shifts which are very hard to translate into a press dominated by "if it bleeds, it leads" philosophy.
The groups primarily active in an opposition to the "surge" of American troops are al Qaeda and their allies in the Islamic State of Iraq, who are staging their own counter-surge, aimed as much at western media as the Iraqi people.
If you note news accounts of the last several months as the surge began, the types of attacks in Iraq shifted.
Sectarian attacks have dropped substantially, as al Qaeda and the ISI have shift to an intensified pattern of often randomized car and truck bombings meant to capture media attention and draw away from the fact that their internal support within Iraq is faltering. The goal of their media campaign is transparent; make it appear that the situation on the ground in Iraq is unchanged or becoming worse, thereby increasing American resistance to remaining in Iraq, even as their own base of support falters and threatens outright collapse.
Indeed, the U.S. military and astute observers predicted this, and so they expect an increase in spectacular media-generating attacks on civilians and Coalition military and police casualties as these forces more forcefully project themselves into areas and increase pressure on anti-government forces.
If you listen to our men in the field—not the Washington politicians who say they will refuse to believe signs of progress, or lie about what they have heard—you will hear many opinions, but the one most common is that they see a real difference in Iraq since the implementation of the COIN strategy. They are even petitioning Congress for courage, and not to give up, even when it is their lives on the line.
We're going to have to finish this war. The only question is whether Democrats lead the cut-and-run now and give al Qaeda and Iran a clear victory setting up a potential genocide, or whether or not we continue the successes now being seen in al Anbar, Baghdad, and Diyala.
The later approach will save for more Iraqi and American lives in the long run. I hope we have strong enough leadership that we only have to fight this war once, but with Democrats still attempting to surrender to al Qaeda and other Islamofascists, and the far left increasingly in bed with Islamofascists, I fear all we may accomplish is a brief, bloody intermission before we refight this war on a larger, bloodier scale.
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Neo-copperheads. A very good insight. Thanks for the color.
Posted by: locomotivebreath1901 at May 10, 2007 10:33 AM (Cy7OH)
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Iran won in 2003. If we don't suppress the Iraq civil war, the Shia win and Iraq becomes a natural ally with Iran. On the other hand the occupation of Iraq is bleeding us dry. The same goes for Al Qaeda. If we leave, Al Qaeda will declare victory. If we stay, Al Qaeda will continue to pick our soldiers off and to be flooded with recruits and to have a terrorist training grounds.
The Dems were patient with Iraq, giving Bush every single thing he asked for in a war his administration said would be a cakewalk, where we would be greeted as liberators. Only after four years, 3,300 troops, and a half trillion dollars are they getting tough.
There's no way for our troops there to win. We can somewhat suppress the civil war, but what more? Promote democracy? I don't even hear you guys talking about that any more. Very likely they'll end up with a Shiite theocracy one way or the other. Now I guess the best you are hoping for is to bring the violence down to some tolerable threshold. What then? What we have now is Operation Bush Passes the Buck.
In poll after poll the Iraqis say they want us to leave. A majority of Iraq's parliament just voted in favor of requesting the US to set a timetable for withdrawal. We our asking our soldiers to die in a conflict where they are not even wanted.
Posted by: Lex Steele at May 10, 2007 10:34 AM (6LXo4)
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"Al Anbar, long the home of the Sunni insurgency and al Qaeda's launching ground, has turned against al Qaeda and is joining the political process, developments that have been reported on scarcely in the western media."
They always hated Al-Q, they just thought that they were useful (enemy of my enemy and all that). If left to their own devices they were always going to slaughter Al-Q.
Do not for a second imagine that this means that they are not also going to continue to attack US forces, or that they are going to sit quietly while the Shiite government splits the country up and enforces the constitution of Iraq that was so clearly rejected by the Sunnis.
"ranian attempts to take over Iraq by proxy may result in genocide and a clear PR victory for al Qaeda. Others rightly fear that such a threat will draw Saudi Arabia into a regional war based in Iraq, where Shias funded, trained, and equipped by Iran, will square off against Iraqi Sunnis trained, funded, and equipped by Saudi Arabia."
I know it is worthless to say at this point, as we are where we are, but can you now at least understand where many of us who opposed this thing from the start were coming from?
We didn't love Saddam, we could just see this sort of stuff happening as a result of the invasion. The only way to avoid a permanent US presence in Iraq with a permanent insurgency or a regional war was to not invade Iraq.
Posted by: Rafar at May 10, 2007 11:04 AM (kkgmI)
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Promote democracy? I don't even hear you guys talking about that any more.
Maybe because its a done deal? A constitution and several rounds of elections appear on the surface to be the trappings of democracy.
In fact, they seem to have accomplished that faster than the USA did.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at May 10, 2007 12:33 PM (pGj0D)
5
PA:
Maybe because its a done deal?
Horse cobblers. You may be the only person on earth who believes that Iraq is a democracy. Saddam held elections. England doesn't have a constitution. Neither elections nor a constitution prove anything.
Posted by: Lex Steele at May 10, 2007 01:22 PM (6LXo4)
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May 09, 2007
Close Enough
If you use
bloglines and have the ABC News International feed, you might have seen something like this today:
It you actually clicked the link, however, you'd end up here.
Do you have questions about situation in Darfur? Send your questions and see them answered next week on our 24-hour news network, ABC News Now.
Screen Cap:
I've got a question, Terry: Why can't ABC News tell the difference between Darfur and Iraq?
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the difference is that we need to surrender in Iraq so we can send troops into Darfur, the "good" kind of international intervention
Posted by: guest at May 09, 2007 01:38 PM (8Y/fG)
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Four More Arrested in 7/7 London Bombing Plot
Via
CNN:
British police arrested the wife of one of the July 7, 2005 suicide bombers as well as three other suspects in early morning terror-related raids Wednesday.
While the identities of the suspects have yet to be officially released, sources told CNN the woman being held is 29-year-old Hasina Patel, the widow of Mohammad Sidique Khan, one of the 7/7 suicide bombers.
Patel and two men aged of 30 and 34 were arrested by officers from the Metropolitan Police Service Counter Terrorism Command in the West Yorkshire, England area. A fourth man, 22, was arrested in West Midlands.
A statement from Scotland Yard said, the four were arrested under the country's terrorism laws "on suspicion of the commission, preparation, or instigation of acts of terrorism."
The arrests were made in a "pre-planned, intelligence-led operation," the statement said, as part of an ongoing investigation into the July 7 attacks on London's transportation system that killed 52 people and injured 700.
The arrests are part of an on-going investigation to help roll-up the support network that enabled four suicide bombers to carry out the series of attacks that occured almost to years ago, and more arrests are possible.
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