October 30, 2006
Zawahiri Targeted
That is what
A.J. Strata,
AllahPundit,
Bill Roggio and others are thinking today in response to reports that Pakistani military forces
killed 80 suspected al Qaeda militants with a strike led by Pakistani helicopter gunships using "precision weapons," Among the confirmed dead so far is radical cleric Maulana Liaqat, who led the al Qaeda-affiliated school.
Roggio suspects that the attack may not have been carried out by Pakistani forces, but instead an combined forces hunter/killer team currently named Task Force 145.
In previous incarnations, this team hunted and killed Musab al-Zarqawi in Iraq as TF 626, hunted and coordinated the capture of Saddam Hussein as TF121, and hunted down and killing Saddam's son's Uday and Qusay as TF20.
Whatever the group is called, it is thought to be composed of the most elite American and British Special Forces units from all branches of service, including elements of Delta Force, SEAL Team Six, SAS and SFSG commandos, and US Army, USAF, and RAF special operations air units.
Brian Ross is stating that the attack came from Predator drones.
Zawahiri was targeted and almost killed in a Predator strike under similar circumstances back in January.
Update: The operation appears to be completely Pakistani in execution, as eyewitnesses identified three Pakistani helicopters as having fired upon the Taliban and al Qaeda affiliated madrassa. What is interesting is that the locals have displayed just 20 bodies of the 80 thought to have been killed, even though there is comparatively little rubble remaining to hide bodies according to the few pictures taken from the scene.
We know from previous attacks in the area that the Taliban and al Qaeda forces are quick to claim their bodies for the rubble of such strikes if at all possible, and so the discrepancy between the number claimed killed and those recovered may be an inadverdant indicator of how many militants were indeed killed.
Update: An al Qaeda leader that survived the strike confirmed that the madrassa was used to train militants.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Last time around Musharaff unequivocally stated he "would not let this happen again"- (i.e., an American air attack over Paki territory).
Someone must have had solid intel.
Could this be the one?
Posted by: TMF at October 30, 2006 03:10 PM (+BgNZ)
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Realistically, the guy has nothing to lose these days by taking a hard line. They're already trying to assassinate him, so being a badass isn't going to change that.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 30, 2006 11:13 PM (AuPsg)
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Missing U.S. Soldier Snatched By al Sadr's Mahdi Army
The American translator kidnapped last week has been identified, and it appears that he broke Army regulations by
marrying an Iraqi civilian:
A U.S. Army translator missing after being kidnapped in Iraq had broken military rules to marry an Iraqi woman and was visiting her when he was abducted, according to people who claim to be relatives of the wife.
According to a report in Monday editions of The New York Times, the relatives said that the soldier, previously unidentified by the U.S. government, is Ahmed Qusai al-Taei, a 41-year-old Iraqi-American. The family did not know he was a soldier until after the kidnapping, the relatives said.
Taei married a 26-year-old college student, Israa Abdul-Satar, three months ago, the family said. They showed visitors photographs of the couple's wedding and honeymoon, the newspaper reported.
The relatives said members of the Shiite Mahdi Army militia came to the wife's home on Oct. 23 and dragged Taei into their car.
It should be pointed out that the situation al-Taei put himself in is one of the reasons why the military discourages soldiers from marrying into the local population, as it places both the soldier and the family at risk for reprisal attacks.
If al-Sadr's Mahdi Army is indeed behind the kidnapping, the situation has the potential for causing significant a significant political rift, as it may force a more aggressive targeting of the Shiite militia that has formed part of the base of support for Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I wonder how this guy's chain of command will answer during the investigation(s) that will no doubt follow? "Well, Sir, I guess we just weren't aware that he was going out, meeting women, and marrying them." The only good thing for him is that he was captured by a group that has been known to negotiate in the past I guess, and Al-Sadr probably doesn't want to stir the hornet's nest by whacking this guy and putting it all over the internet. Should be interesting to see how this plays out.
Posted by: paully at October 30, 2006 11:09 PM (yJuX3)
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October 29, 2006
French Bus Torched by Undescribables
And the Anonymous War
continues:
Teenagers set a bus ablaze in Marseilles, France, seriously burning a female passenger and sending three others to the hospital for smoke inhalation.
The group reportedly forced the vehicle's doors opened and threw a flammable liquid into the bus before fleeing, the BBC said Sunday.
Authorities reported several recent bus attacks, coinciding with the one-year anniversary of riots in poor suburbs across France. The deaths of two teens in Paris sparked the riots.
In Paris, about 500 people marched in memory of the two teenage boys who died in 2005. The deaths of the two, both from immigrant families, and suggestions they were fleeing from police touched off weeks of suburban clashes, the BBC said.
During last year's riots, authorities said more than 10,000 cars were set on fire and 300 buildings were firebombed, the BBC said.
It's too bad no one can seem to get a description of the people carrying out these attacks. Apparently, France is being overrun by vague, featureless teenagers.
Oh, the horror...
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How about "the ugly face of the failure of the French experiment with Socialism."
Yes, they are primarily young muslim males, but I'm leaning toward the bulk of the blame being French government policy.
Posted by: Mark at October 29, 2006 10:42 AM (uUD7+)
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Damn Druids - I knew it would come to this...
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 29, 2006 11:05 AM (AuPsg)
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And how about this wonderfully telling quote on how things are going in France:
Two other public buses and 277 vehicles around the country were burned overnight, police said.
"...Still the Interior Ministry described the night as "relative calm," noting that up to 100 cars are torched by youths in troubled neighborhoods on an average night..."
Yeah, I sure want this country influencing world events.
Losers...
Posted by: WB at October 29, 2006 11:05 AM (A9ieS)
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How fortunate, then, that my home country, Finland, is very reluctant to take immigrants, and is quite keen to deport them, should they commit any serious crimes. I'd hate to see the French way of doing things (or rather, NOT doing things) in here.
It seems that much of Europe is held hostage by these criminals, who are so eager to kill, burn, and then blame others for what they themselves have done.
Posted by: Anonymous for now at October 29, 2006 04:26 PM (RMHg5)
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Anonymous Finn, the last time I was in Helsinki, the central train station was full of sullen Somali "youths".
Posted by: Anonymous too at October 29, 2006 05:56 PM (gq1+F)
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Just another example of media manipulation. They do it all the time. Just check out my latest article at www.fromthepen.com/issue208.html to see another example.
Regards
buck
Posted by: bucktowndusty at October 29, 2006 06:53 PM (XDAh6)
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This is really laughable because everyone on the planet with an IQ above room temperature realizes that "youths" in this context means Muslims.
If whites rampaged against Muslims, does anyone doubt that the editors would find "youths" to be an inadequate discription of the perpetrators?
Posted by: Karl at October 29, 2006 10:33 PM (BHlA3)
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"Anonymous too" - you probably saw most of our Somalis there.
BTW, I'm missing your point. They didn't rob you, did they?
Posted by: Anonymous for now at October 30, 2006 12:46 PM (RMHg5)
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October 25, 2006
New War Spin: Fighting Makes Army Unsuited For Combat
Baltimore
Sun reporter David Wood makes that claim citing the Army's vice chief of staff, Gen. Richard Cody, in an oddly-titled article, "
Warfare skills eroding as Army fights insurgents":
Pressed by the demands of fighting insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan, the U.S. Army has been unable to maintain proficiency in the kind of high-intensity mechanized warfare that toppled Saddam Hussein and would be needed again if the Army were called on to fight in Korea or in other future crises, senior officers acknowledge.
Soldiers once skilled at fighting in tanks and armored vehicles have spent three years carrying out street patrols, police duty and raids on suspected insurgent safe houses. Officers who were experienced at maneuvering dozens of tanks and coordinating high-speed maneuvers with artillery, attack helicopters and strike fighters now run human intelligence networks, negotiate with clan elders and oversee Iraqi police training and neighborhood trash pickup.
The Army's senior leaders say there is scant time to train troops in high-intensity skills and to practice large-scale mechanized maneuvers when combat brigades return home. With barely 12 months between deployments, there is hardly enough time to fix damaged gear and train new soldiers in counterinsurgency operations. Some units have the time to train but find their tanks are either still in Iraq or in repair depots.
The Army's vice chief of staff, Gen. Richard Cody, recently told reporters that there is growing concern that the Army's skills are eroding and that if the war in Iraq continues at current levels, the United States could eventually have "an army that can only fight a counterinsurgency." Cody is broadly responsible for manning, equipping and training the force.
While General Cody is a career military officer and I am but a humble civilian blogger, I beg to differ with his analysis. Put simply, it seems doubtful that large U.S. mechanized units will every again square off against comparable units in large scale, high-intensity maneuver warfare, if that is indeed the assertion he was trying to make.
Advances in imagery and signals intelligence makes it doubtful that an opposing Army could assemble a large mechanized force without U.S. commanders learning of its location, at which point other intelligence gathering assets would be able to determine the force make-up and develop precise targeting coordinates. At this point, Air Force, Navy, and Marine strike fighters and bombers, along with cruise missiles and long-range artillery assets such as the MLRS and ER-MLRS can repeatedly engage opposing force armor concentrations at a range of hundreds of miles. Once closer, any surviving units can be engaged with close air support by Army and Marine attack helicopters and conventional artillery assets, in addition to on-going attacks from Air Force and Navy strike fighters and bombers. By the time American armor closes to within their several-mile striking distance, the bulk of enemy forces will likely be destroyed, at which point the job for American armored forces will likely be identifying and destroying surviving remaining enemy armored forces that are significantly degraded and largely immobilized.
Likewise, if General Cody does not see large armor-versus armor conflicts on the horizon, the practical experience gained over the past three years in urban street fighting probably makes our soldiers better prepared for future conflicts. The kind of overwhelming short range fire-support and long range "sniping" against fixed position targets that Neil Prakash wrote about in his now-defunct milblog Armor Geddon seems to be the future of heavy armored units in heavily integrated combined arms warfare.
General Casey may indeed have a point if we once again face an opposing force that can deny us the air superiority needed to make a combined arms battlespace its most effective, but as our most pressing projected opponents—Iran, North Korea, and Pakistan, according to the article—do not have that capability, his concerns seem to me to be the complaints of the kind of stereotypical general wedded to past tactics, guilty of always fighting the past war.
Note: John Donovan tells me via email that he might address the Sun article in more detail later today at Castle Argghhh!
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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The one area where the US technical superiority can be evaded in a ground war is when the enemy goes underground. Witness the problems faced by Israel v. Hizbullah in South Lebanon or the situation in Gaza. The terrorists dug their underground bunkers and were able to evade and escape aerial bombardment, and the limited ground attacks meant that quite a few of the terrorists escaped unscathed.
Around the world, the Iranians, North Koreans, and other terror groups have noted the problems dealing with underground threats and the difficulty that the US has in dealing with them (building nuclear weapons facilities underground, assisting terror groups build underground caches/bunkers, and preparing for conflict with underground attack in mind. These threats will exploit this weakness most surely. That's why development of new bunker busting technologies is absolutely necessary.
After all, the US ran into the same kinds of problems in Vietnam - the Iron Triangle/Cu Chi tunnel complex proved a tough nut to crack.
That said, the military tactics don't necessarily erode because US soldiers and Marines are dealing with one set of tactics at the moment. The
NTC is still teaching armor movement in addition to other scenarios.
Posted by: lawhawk at October 25, 2006 01:21 PM (5jnES)
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This is indeed a puzzler. CY, a self-described "civilian blogger," says that our troops are better prepared for warfare than they were before, while others disagree. If only we could get an expert to weigh in on the issue--you know, like the Army's vice chief of staff or somebody like that. If only!
Posted by: Doc Washboard at October 25, 2006 01:21 PM (/Wery)
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So, erm, if they aren't using their tanks, AFVs, and Strykers then why do we seem to have so many over there?
Posted by: Spade at October 25, 2006 01:55 PM (MwlDS)
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I've got to agree with Cody on this. In Iraq, they're using mech infantry, tankers, artillerymen, engineers, etc as light infantrymen and military police. These people are not practicing the techniques that won the original war - big-unit combined arms warfare. That skillset takes continuous training for a unit to be effective. If we find ourselves facing large-unit warfare again any time soon, we will do so with eroded skills. Given our history, I doubt very much that intelligence will provide enough time to retrain, and air attack will only provide a limited capability - remember that anyone with the capability to mount an armored assault will also have an air defense capability, something our air force hasn't faced since Vietnam.
Posted by: Cap'n Dan at October 25, 2006 02:29 PM (YYKx0)
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If only we could get an expert to weigh in on the issue...
Be snide all you want, Doc. It does seem to be one of your few talents.
History has shown us shows us time and again that once senior military officers have ingested certain strategy and tactics and have become comfortable with them, they are loath to deviate from these in the face of new technologies. The British suffered defeats in the American Revolutionary War by using tactics from previous continental conflicts, just as ground combat in WWI, where infantrymen stood side-by-side and marched against fixed positions, is perhaps the penultimate example of generals failing to recognize how new technologies should change new tactics.
Though a career Army Aviator and Master Pilot, General Cody came up through the ranks during the Cold War, where our military trained to fight a massive armored ground campaign against divisions of Warsaw Pact armor surging through the Fulda Gap with up to 50,000 main battle tanks (and that was just the Soviet Army circa 1988, not its allies). Combine all three nations that the military views as potential threats in this article—Iran, Pakistan, and North Korea, and they have just 6,400 MBTs
combined.
CodyÂ’s entire generation was brought up to fight on massive fields of armor in Europe, and the training regimen at Fort Irwin was largely created to fight that war that never came. Cody and other generals are still apparently trying to fight that war, or perhaps the 1991 Gulf War, which featured the Battle of Medina Ridge. It was the largest tank battle in U.S. history. It lasted two hours.
Since then, the technologies I briefly outlined above meant that when the British fought in their largest armored engagement since WWII during the 2003 invasion, they killed just 14 enemy tanks. All the rest had been destroyed or abandoned because of the combined arms strategy that is becoming more refined and lethal over time.
There is certainly a place for the kind of tactics and training Cody discusses, it just remains to be seen if there is an enemy on the modern battlefield that can expect to live long enough to have these tactics used against them.
Spade, I invite you to re-read the article. They are using these armored vehicles, and nobody is debating that point at all. What is being debated are the most applicable tactics and training for our modern military considering our huge technological advances since these tactics were first developed.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 25, 2006 02:41 PM (g5Nba)
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Well, your damned if you do and damned if you don't. The US Army & Marine Corps have more urban combat experience, more combat experience period that than any other army on earth but apparently they're too busy fighting to keep up their mechanized warfare skills. It seems the military can't be all things to all people. I would be more concerned about the wear and tear on the equipment from it's continuous use than the skill of the soldiers who have to use it. It doesn't matter what their skill level is if they get in the tank and the treads fall of off it.
Posted by: Tbird at October 25, 2006 03:14 PM (7rIVo)
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Hmmmmm. Lessee. There is no doubt, that at company level and below, US infantry, especially light infantry, is far far improved over what it was (less the Rangers perhaps) prior to 2001.
US artillery, in terms of ability to deliver fires, is probably unchanged, even with many units functioning in MP/light infantry mode. Certainly precision fire capability has improved. The ability to mass fires, however, is probably decayed somewhat. That's an open issue as to whether or not it's important. Mass is a quality all it's own, sometimes. But, on balance, we're probably okay, and of the combat arms branches, Artillery and Air Defense are probably the easiest to stand up quickly should you need them. That refers to delivery units.
Fire *planning* skills, that's different, and that gets at the heart of combined arms warfare. I suspect that is a skill that is atrophying somewhat for integrated maneuver, while improving for urban combat.
Lawhawk observes that the NTC still trains large scale maneuver - I would disagree, given how the NTC has changed significantly to reflect the Current Operating Environment. With 54 rotations as an O/C and a player, I'll suggest that what goes on there now is *not* nearly the same thing that went on there back in 2000. Nor should it be - but to just note that sometimes a battalion of tanks maneuvers out there is not the same thing as two weeks of combined arms attack and defense.
General Cody's real point is uncertainty.
In July of 1990, we had no idea we'd be fighting the war we'd be fighting in February of 1991. The same is true for Afghanistan, and, to a lesser extent, Iraq.
General Cody is concerned that we're building the Army to fight the current fight and designing the future army to fight this fight... and we've usually been wrong about what that future fight would be, in the event.
The whole transformation process is trying to reshape the forces to fight with less stuff, fewer people, and lighter vehicles - all made possible by the network.
Heaven help us if the network falls apart. Ask the Israelis.
Bob's critique makes some good points - but one reason there are seemingly no on-the-horizon threats out there to the Armored Force is precisely because most people know they can't stand up to it. General Cody would like to keep it that way.
Reality is, we're going to have to make some choices, and General Cody feels it's easier to flex from the 2000-style force to what we're currently doing than it will be to flex from a light fighter force to a heavy-punch force.
The real trick is trying to keep the core skillset for both. That's General Cody's challenge.
I'm an old fogey from the old days, and I make a living studying the new days - and I don't share Bob's faith in precision fires throughout the depth of the battlefield.
And what works on flat sandy pool tables doesn't work that well in cross-compartmented woody terrain. Can you spell Air Campaign in Kosovo?
Posted by: John of Argghhh! at October 25, 2006 03:18 PM (Iymsr)
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Just because counterinsurgency operations require a finer level of skills than open warfare, doesn't mean soldiers cannot fight. You can't do surgery with a sledgehammer, but you can certainly kill someone with a scalpel.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at October 25, 2006 03:31 PM (oC8nQ)
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I think one of the biggest overlooked facts is the new doctrine of combined arms warfare. I don't think large tank formations would ever survive the watchful eyes of drones, followed by bombers loaded with swarms of smart weapons.
I wouldn't want our guys out in the tanks.
What's need is more high speed agile weapons systems with better protection, like stryker. Calling in a bomber is far more effective than trying to hit the enemy with a formation of loud clanking tanks. The Israelis found this out with Hezbollah in Lebanon. Save the tanks for mop up.
Times change.
Posted by: bill at October 25, 2006 03:43 PM (7evkT)
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Another PC general promoted in the 90's. Put in charge and he'll probably bomb the Chinese embassy like the idiot Clark. Light mobile forces has been the thing for the past 6 years.
Posted by: Scrapiron at October 25, 2006 04:50 PM (fEnUg)
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Um... if the good General's problem is the erosion of tanker and arty skills when tankers and arty troops are used as infantry, why isn't he suggesting either recruiting more infantry or having those specialist troops cross-trained as infantry?
And don't I remember a problem early in the invasion... something having to do with a convoy of track mechanics getting lost, ambushed, and captured because they had no infantry skills but instead were soley "specialists" like General Cody desires?
Posted by: DaveP. at October 25, 2006 05:52 PM (G4UbQ)
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The problem is once they plug the mechanized guys back into the Matrix they have to delete the mechanized skills and install the infantry ones. But that damn Bill Gates hits you with another a licensing fee when you try to re-install the mech skills.
To make it worse, the instructor package is even more expensive so we can't even train!!!! Might as well just roll up Ft Irwin.
Posted by: y7 at October 25, 2006 07:42 PM (I1rXq)
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"Another PC general promoted in the 90's."
When you don't know what you are talking about, you would be best advised to say nothing. GEN Dick Cody is far from a PC officer. I've known Cody for many years and you will find no officer more committed to his nation, his mission and most improtantly his Soldiers.
Yes, Dick came up through Army Aviation, but do not try to out think him in any other area of Army skills; you will only embarrass yourself.
It is imperative that our soldiers prepare and finely develop the skills necessary to be successful in their current engagement. To that end they train for desert and desert urban insurgent warfare. Their core skills used in mid to high intensity battlefields take a back seat and rightfully so. As we adapt our tactics, so does the enemy and so must we and on and on. Vietnam was a constantly changing tactical operation (with no mid to high intensity armor fights).
It is not just armor that has to adapt to being policemen... aviation operations changes significantly, too. There are no deep attacks or deep air assault operations. Attack helicopter ops is denegrated to escort and guard duty. Assault helicopter ops becomes ash and trash and transport. Heavy helicopters are not involved in conducting deep strike artillery raids, and so on. These are mid to high intensity conflict core skills necessary for the Army to be successful in larger engagements.
Gen Cody's concerns are not alarmist and are not meant to indicate that we cannot readapt. I believe he wants the nation's leadership to understand that we cannot fill all missions at once with the size of the current force.
In Vietnam we deployed units with equipment to the theater and rotated soldiers in an out. In Iraq and Afghanistan we are rotating units with equipment in and out of theater. The desert theater is much harsher on equipment requiring extensive maintenance downtime when the units return. The equipment downtime does not support continued core training. Battle labs and simulation devices enable some training, but cannot accomodate large unit formations, etc. Although staffs can pretty much stay trained, individual weapon system crews cannot.
Partial combined arms responses as CY points out is most surely part of the tools that our tacticians plan to use to hold off an attack until the cavalry can arrive. That''s what "combined arms" is all about.
I guess my main point is - do not sell General Cody short. He is not some narrow minded antiquated unchangeable dinosaur who is on active duty way past his usefulness. Dick is one of the sharpest minds the Army has had in a long time. If anything, he is probaly frustrated because the Army is not being resourced to the level necessary to meet all the mission demands being placed upon it. Yet he is Soldier enough to salute the falg and do the impossible with little resources.
Posted by: Old Soldier at October 25, 2006 07:46 PM (owAN1)
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There is absolutely nobody the Right will listen to when it comes to problems in Iraq. It doesn't matter how dialed in or how high up they are--if they bear bad news, they must be screwed in some way. They "weren't in the loop," or they were only speaking out to increase book sales, or they're trapped in the past.
The Right isn't speaking out about these people when they're doing things that promote the Rightist agenda, but when they break ranks, baby, they better not bend over in the shower to pick up the soap.
This suggests to me that the key for the Right is uniformity of message at all costs, no matter what the facts are out here in the reality-based community.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at October 25, 2006 08:42 PM (8+v6o)
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"There is absolutely nobody the Right will listen to when it comes to problems in Iraq."
C'mon, you can't really mean that. Tactics are adjusted to the current threat all the time. You're position is insane. And what's all that garbage about male rape. Please join in the adult discussion.
I'm really impressed with most of the comments here. CY was right though. The title of that article was pretty absurd. "Warfighting skills eroding..." . So urban combat isn't "warfighting"? Thanks a bunch, Baltimore Sun.
The concept of how our military should train, trying to anticipate future conflicts is a great discussion, because there is a lot of gray area, however we are currently in a fight, therefore current training should reflect the current situation.
Posted by: brando at October 25, 2006 11:26 PM (K+VjK)
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Brando:
Don't tell me what I mean or don't mean. Give me an example of a time when a bearer of bad news about how the GWOT is being carried out has not been pilloried.
Also: I was using a metaphor. Higher level thinking: it does a body good.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at October 26, 2006 07:35 AM (UCOZf)
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"There is absolutely nobody the Right will listen to when it comes to problems in Iraq."
And when it comes to Iraq, there is no news or information that the left cannot turn into an attack against Bush.
Nowhere is the general suggesting that our policy in Iraq is wrong, or that we are losing the fight. All he is doing is making the observation that one skill set (battalion level and higher mechanized combat operations) is being neglected for another (counterinsurgency). As a general in charge of training, I am not suprised in the least that what he really wants is MORE TRAINING.
Oh and here's my second analogy:
You can have Michelangelo paint your house, but you can't have Sherman-Williams do the Sistine Chapel.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at October 26, 2006 07:36 AM (oC8nQ)
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Give me an example of a time when a bearer of bad news about how the GWOT is being carried out has not been pilloried.
Right off the top of my head, Michael Yon is seen by many on the right as having a great amount of credibility, and he has been speaking about problems in both Iraq and Afgahnistan for quite a while, speaking of problems with both tactics and strategy, and also with the military's apparent aversion to allowing embeds such as himself to take the field.
He of course isn't the only one, just one with a lot of on the ground experience that is seen is far more credible than those journalists hiding in the al Rashid Hotel uncritically "reporting" whatever stringers bother to bring them.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 26, 2006 07:57 AM (g5Nba)
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Yon doesn't fall into the same category as Administration members or high military brass. Is there a member of the GWOT Establishment, like Richard Clark or the general under discussion, who has not been discredited by the Right when he has spoken out?
Posted by: Doc Washboard at October 26, 2006 10:45 AM (/Wery)
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No one is discrediting him. I think its just a stupid comment. There is no doubt the Army is cross-training soldiers into different functional areas. Many field artillery guys are becoming MPs, Convoy Security, and Truck Drivers. Does that mean that they have forever and ever lost thier skills as Artillerymen?
No. The Army right now needs MP's, Convoy Security, and Truck Drivers. The Army does not need Artillerymen in as great of numbers as we have them. So what do we do? Do we enlist more MP's and Truck Drivers to free up our artillerymen for desert warfare training in Ft Irwin?
The most ridiculous part of this conversation is the ommission of the follow-up question: "What's your point?"
Is he saying that America is less safe because our tankers are engaged in more mission essential activities in the actual war that we are fighting rather than training for a war that may, and probably won't, ever come? If so, what is his proposal? Should we draft more tankers? More MP's?
I get the impression he is he saying that North Korea's tankers are now more proficient than US ones. How much additional train-up will our tankers need to catch up to the vaunted Starvation Army? I'm very interested...what is his point in talking about this?
The end of the article states his concern is that we will only have an army capable of fighting a counter-insurgency. Ok. Before this we only had an Amry capable of fighting a conventional war. My argument, being a soldier and knowing how well we train, is that we now have an Army capable of fighting both...the beauty of cross-training. The tankers may be unpracticed, but they are not untrained. And get this, no matter how much practice a unit had, before they were sent to war, they got to practice more! Train, train, train, that is what the Army does.
The important part of the article that should be discussed (rather than the looming incompetence of our soldiers) should be this quote:
"Some units have the time to train but find their tanks are either still in Iraq or in repair depots." That is the real problem. We don't need more troops or less cross-training, we need more stuff. Lets have that discussion instead.
Posted by: y7 at October 26, 2006 01:35 PM (yYph9)
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Please Doc, there's no reason to be defensive. When I said "You can't possibly mean...", I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I was giving you a gift. Lashing out doesn't count as intelligent discourse. You may have been raised to think so, therefore I forgive you. Lying and metaphor are not the same thing, please try harder.
CY, this is slightly off topic, but you mentioned the al Rashid Hotel, and I was there once. You're absolutely right. The place is pretty darn nice, and reporters who live there basicly have expert knowledge of catered food and a swimming pool. They'd be hard pressed to say that they're
in Iraq.
Posted by: brando at October 26, 2006 02:35 PM (K+VjK)
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Brando, I was trying to find a way to contact you privately, but, when I go to you site (linked above), I find no email address. I guess I'm left with doing this here.
I've managed to avoid namecalling in the time that I've been reading and posting on Confederate Yankee, but your idiocy has pushed me past my limit. I've read your last two posts and have come to the conclusion that you have to be one of the stupidest lumps I've ever encountered on the Web.
If you seriously, honestly think that my "don't bend over in the shower" line is lying--LYING, mind you--and not metaphor, then you seriously, honestly believe that all these guys--the generals and the mucky-mucks on the Joint Chiefs and the national security advisors--all actually shower together on a regular basis, and that I've impugned someone's honor (whose is not clear) by suggesting that he actually, factually tried to anally rape one of these other guys when they were all in this enormous shower. (And where might this imaginary shower be, I wonder?)
You poor sod, I'm talking about the metaphorical shafting Administration members get when they go off-message. It's a figure of speech. Nobody is actually forcing his wang into someone's bunghole. There is no actual shower that these guys climb into together.
Go ahead and try to give me what-for about metaphors if you'd like. I've been teaching metaphor for the past seventeen years, but please share your vast knowledge with the rest of us.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at October 27, 2006 12:21 AM (TAunl)
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I forgive you for that too.
Posted by: brando at October 27, 2006 01:00 AM (K+VjK)
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Doc, I see how you got confused. Despite your rage, I still hope that you can learn that you're accountable for what you say and do. I can't "push you" to anything. Like I said, I forgive you. I'm not trying to give you the "what for". I'm just trying to communicate. Simmer down.
The lie was the statement
"absolutely nobody the Right will listen to ..."
It's such an extreme and absolute statement that it has no chance of being true. When CY mentioned Michael Yon, you basically said he didn't count.
"Absolutely nobody", remember?
Michael Yon is a person. He's a somebody.
All encompassing extreme statements that are false, just end up being polarizing, which is what I think you were looking for. You weren't looking for truth, you were looking for a fight. I was giving you a mulligan, and I still am. You can redeem yourself, but either way it's still no sweat.
Posted by: brando at October 27, 2006 02:03 AM (K+VjK)
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Doc,
One more personal attack and you're gone.
Brando has been relatively civil, and you're here suggesting your anal rape metaphor is "higher level thinking"?
Final warning.
Posted by: Confeederate Yankee at October 27, 2006 06:31 AM (HcgFD)
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CY:
Whatever. In the couple of months I've been reading and posting, I have been relentlessly attacked by the right-wingers here. I've been called names--"stupid" being the least objectionable of them--my sexuality has been questioned, and my honesty has been impugned.
Throughout all of that--all of it--I have kept my cool and stayed on topic despite the best attempts of folks like SouthernRoots and Scrapiron to get me to do otherwise.
Throughout all of it you have done nothing. Not once have you stepped into the message board to threaten them with expulsion.
Then, the first time I indulge in the pastime of so many others at this same site, I'm threatened with expulsion.
So, again, whatever.
Brando:
"There," as Reagan used to say, "you go again." In a previous post, you wrote, "Lying and metaphor are not the same thing, please try harder." When you write that, there is no other interpretation possible than that you are calling a lie the statement that I called a metaphor. The metaphor was the prison-shower riff. There is no other interpretation available.
Finally: the discussion about who the Right would listen to in re: problems in the GWOT was focused specifically on high-level Administration or military types. I know that to be the case because I'm the one who started the discussion and I set the direction. There are people who are off the table--that is, for the sake of this discussion, they don't count. For example, CY would probably listen to his mother if she had reservations about the GWOT--we have to listen to what our mothers say, after all--but he wouldn't be foolish enough to bring her into this discussion.
When I made my charge in a previous post, I wrote, "It doesn't matter how dialed in or how high up they are--if they bear bad news, they must be screwed in some way. They 'weren't in the loop,' or they were only speaking out to increase book sales, or they're trapped in the past." It is clear that I'm talking about those who were, in fact, "dialed in" or "high up"--people who are in the loop. That is the universe of people I defined.
Michael Yon is not a member of that universe. He is neither dialed in nor high up. He's a guy with a blog. For the sake of the discussion as I defined it when I began it, he does not exist. Neither does my wife. Nor does my boss. Nor do the guys in my band. They're not part of the discussion. If they spout off on the GWOT, nobody cares.
My original charge remains. Of people who are dialed in and high up, nobody who questions the progress of the GWOT escapes unscathed by the Right.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at October 27, 2006 08:39 AM (ZDygY)
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My original charge remains.
No, it hasn't. You've significantly moved the goalposts from "absolutely nobody" on the Right, which is 111 million people give or take, to "Administration members or high military brass," perhaps a few hundred people at best.
As for those few hundred, specifically those in the "high military brass," they've had it with dishonest liberal media bias, and have
started their own web site to combat it, and several top counterterrorism experts often at odds with the Adminstration are
coming down strongly against Demcratic plans to cut and run in Iraq. Simply put, the experts think if Democrats win on Nov. 7, that the terrorists win the War on Terror.
As for Mike Yon, he is incredibly "dialed in," spending more time in both Iraq and Afghanistan than any American politician I'm aware of, and he has contacts throughout the military. Even while stateside, his network of contacts gives him better eyes on the ground than most major news organizations.
You can tell yourself there is an echochamber on the right, but I think it is readily apparrent to any honest observer that there isn't.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 27, 2006 09:11 AM (g5Nba)
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CY:
Interesting info about Michael Yon. Remind me again of the Administration policies he has been in charge of developing or executing--you know, like Joe Wilson, Clark, this general we're discussing, and any other higher-ups who have been smeared by the Right.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at October 27, 2006 10:37 AM (/Wery)
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I just reread that article again, and like I said before, I think this topic is worthy of discussion. The thing is, this is
always discussed in the military. Changing training methods for predicted future conflicts has been a big deal in the military for as long as weÂ’ve had a military. Just because some journalists have never thought about it before, doesnÂ’t mean that it hasnÂ’t been thought about. ItÂ’s almost an un-story, but the article is written as though they are pointing out an Iraq problem, that our stupid, stupid military needs to be alerted to. The headline is just flat-out goofy. For the next 15-20 years were going to have a lot of combat experienced veterans to draw from, and the article makes it sound as though more experience equals less experience.
What makes for relevant and safe military training is very open to debate, however the article writer has reported it as though the debate is over, and heÂ’s obviously right. Maybe we should have him teach at a War College, or literally be an oracle.
Posted by: brando at October 27, 2006 11:01 AM (RqbPA)
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Since when has Joe Wilson developed or executed policy during this Presidency? He hasn't. He's tried to undermine policy it with thoroughly discredited pablum, but he he certainly hasn't developed any during this Administration, having retired from diplomatic life in 1998.
As for Clark, are you referring to Wesley, the retired General and Democratic Presidential Candidate, or are you referring to Richard Clark
e, the counterterrorism official that once stated in 1999 that "old wily Usama will likely boogie to Baghdad," only to later change his tune and ship home the bin Laden family on 9/14/01?
Irregardless, all of these men made their most famous statements regarding Iraq after they were no longer serving this nation, and unless the freedom of speech is allowed to only work one way (and after the Columbia University Free Speech Massacre, that might be precisely what liberals prefer), their conclusions, reasoning and methodology in arriving at their conclusions can certainly be challenged.
As for General Cody, the post I wrote disagree with his apparent analysis if he was quoted properly--my exact phrase was "if that is indeed the assertion he was trying to make"--and at the
very worse part of my post, I mentioned that his comments as I understood them, "seem to me to be the complaints of the kind of stereotypical general wedded to past tactics, guilty of always fighting the past war."
I laid out a case of why I thought that what I took away from him comments did not seem to mesh with what I know of evolving military technologies and expected enemies. That is called a difference of opinion, not a smear.
The
overwhelming majority of commentors to this post, whether they agreed with Cody's assessment or not, only agreed or disagreed with his position. They didn't smear him. Only one commentor said anything purposefully derogatory.
On the other hand, you accuse "the Right" of being a monolithic horde that reflexively strikes out to strike down anyone who isn't 100% on message.
I'll have to refer that to Joe Lieberman. He might get a laugh out of that.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 27, 2006 11:42 AM (g5Nba)
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He is neither dialed in nor high up.
He seems more dialed in than you though. Just saying...
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 28, 2006 06:59 PM (AuPsg)
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October 24, 2006
Coincidences
Okay, I'll confess my ignorance and ask the question:
Has anyone else ever seen an African-Palestinian terrorist before?
There is the possibility that the gunman pictured is just a very dark-skinned Arab, or that the color balance was incorrect in this photo. Indeed, another photo of what appears to be the same individual at the same location does apparently show somewhat lighter skin. But with the population of Gaza being 99.4% Arab Palestinian and the remaining 0.6% being Jewish, the question is obvious:
Who is that masked man?
Do we now have photo evidence that Palestianians are importing terrorists from North African terrorist groups? And would that perhaps explain why the Associated Press photographer who shot this photo was kidnapped just hours after this picture was published?
Enquiring minds want to know.
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It is only a thumbnail with low-resolution, but it looks lke the black is a PhotoShop effect, called 'masking', I think.
Notice his 'black' color is constant and continuous and that just isn't right for any picture of that type.
Also look at the outline of the head. No hair or ears or features other than white eyes.
Posted by: Brett at October 24, 2006 06:20 PM (tcu3i)
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It is only a thumbnail with low-resolution, but it looks lke the black is a PhotoShop effect, called 'masking', I think.
Notice his 'black' color is constant and continuous and that just isn't right for any picture of that type.
Also look at the outline of the head. No hair or ears or features other than white eyes.
Posted by: Brett Field at October 24, 2006 06:20 PM (tcu3i)
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Not to disagree with the hypothesis above, but it isn't beyond reason that black Muslims from Somalia, Egypt, Sudan, or wherever have gone to Palestine to 'fight for the cause.'
Posted by: Dawnfire82 at October 24, 2006 06:57 PM (RvTAf)
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Wow, an African fighting Israelis? That would present a conundrum white supremacist groups around the nation.
Posted by: paully at October 24, 2006 09:15 PM (yJuX3)
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1. the population of Gaza has been 100% arab Palestinians for over a year now (ever since the disengagement). There is not a single Jew living there. Not even one. (There are African/black Jews in Israel, by the way).
2. There are black Palestinians in the strip. Bein Hanun for example is of Bedouin tribes. There are Bedouin tribes who are black just like Africans, (although I'm not familiar with their history), the Tarabin for example.
3. Never the less, your theory is very realistic, since Somalis and other Africans who escape from their countries, have been crossing the border to Israel from Egypt for over a decade now, it is a very common thing. For the last year the border between Egypt and Gaza has been practically open, so that Africans can cross to Gaza with no problem. Given the fact Sinai is flooded with Al-Qaeda cells, and the consistent call in the Arab world for more Muslims to continue coming to the Israeli front, I guess what you suggested is not very unlikely, with no further data.
Posted by: an Israeli at October 25, 2006 06:16 PM (7A241)
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Abandon All Hope
This child was weak—perhaps injured or dying—as this photo was taken in the Darfur region of Sudan in 2004. He may already be dead. One thing is certain; the future of millions of children throughout the Middle East just like him will be affected by you very soon.
As you read this, Darfar is a largely abandoned genocide. Supported by the Sudanese government, Arab janjaweed militias are exterminating Africans of the Fur, Zaghawa, and Massaleit ethnic groups. Estimates of the number of dead vary, and millions are thought to be displaced. We know that children and babies are among the targets of the janjaweed attacks, and that dismemberment is a not uncommon tactic. We also know that the violence in Darfur is projected to worsen throughout the rest of the year.
If current U.S. political trends hold, Iraq may become another Darfur, and Darfur well may be on its way to becoming another Rwanda.
As Victor David Hansen notes of unexpected outcomes today:
Where does all this lead? Not where most expect. The Left thinks that the “fiasco” in Iraq will bring a repudiation of George Bush, and lead to its return to power. Perhaps. But more likely it will bring a return of realpolitik to American foreign policy, in which no action abroad is allowable (so much for the liberals’ project of saving Darfur), and our diplomacy is predicated only on stability abroad. The idealism of trying to birth consensual government will be discredited; but with its demise also ends any attention to Arab moderates, who whined for years about our support for the House of Saud, Pakistani generals, Gulf autocrats, or our neglect of the mayhem wrought by Islamists in Afghanistan. We know now that when the United States tries to spend blood and treasure in Afghanistan and Iraq that it will be slandered as naïve or imperialistic.
Every major Democratic candidate in this fall’s congressional race—save one principled independent Democrat in Connecticut—is pushing for the United States to withdraw from Iraq. Some moderate Republicans are taking this tack as well. They claim that they want U.S. forces out of Iraq because our continued presence there only invites attacks against American soldiers, saps the national treasury, weakens our ability to respond to other threats such as Iran and North Korea, and weakens our image in the international community.
All of these points have some merit.
U.S. soldiers would be far safer if redeployed to Okinawa. There are no insurgents, no sectarian militias, and no roving bands of al Qaeda terrorists there.
The War in Iraq is indeed expensive, costing over 336 billion dollars and growing according to one anti-war web site.
Having such a large commitment of soldiers currently in, returning from, or preparing to go to Iraq certainly absorbs a significant portion of our current military strength, though it barely occupies our force projection from the Navy and Air Force to any extent.
And let us not forget that our international image is indeed tarnished, particularly among those nations of the world community run by strongmen, despots, and dictators that would see a weaker and more isolationist United States as a benefit for their own foreign policy desires.
But what no candidate in favor of withdrawal wants to address is what will happen to the Iraqi people if anti-war candidates do take control of Congress and attempt to live up to their campaign promises.
Rep. Charles Rangel (D-NY) and other leading Democrats have already made their intentions abundantly clear:
Rep. Charles Rangel (D-N.Y.) will chair the powerful Ways and Means Committee if Democrats win control of the House next year, but his main goal in 2007 does not fall within his panelÂ’s jurisdiction.
"I canÂ’t stop this war, " a frustrated Rangel said in a recent interview, reiterating his vow to retire from Congress if Democrats fall short of a majority in the House.
But when pressed on how he could stop the war even if Democrats control the House during the last years of President BushÂ’s second term, Rangel paused before saying, "YouÂ’ve got to be able to pay for the war, donÂ’t you?"
Rangel’s views on funding the war are shared by many of his colleagues – especially within the 73-member Out of Iraq Caucus.
Some Democratic legislators want to halt funding for the war immediately, while others say they would allocate money for activities such as reconstruction, setting up international security forces, and the ultimate withdrawal of U.S. troops.
"Personally, I wouldnÂ’t spend another dime [on the war,] " said Rep. Lynn Woolsey (D-Calif.).
Woolsey is among the Democrats in Congress who are hoping to control the power of the purse in 2007 to force an end to the war. Woolsey and some of her colleagues note that Congress helped force the end of Vietnam War by refusing to pay for it.
If Democrats take control of the House of Representatives, they will cut funding to the war effort. What they will not publicly admit is that the nearly immediate precipitous withdrawal that that would force will almost certainly destroy any hopes of Iraq being able to develop a representative form of government.
An impending, unimpeded civil war dwarfing the current level of sectarian violence will quite probably lead to genocide in Iraq, and yet, politicians in the House would not likely respond by reinserting U.S forces to help halt the violence. To do so would be to admit that they were wrong to force such an abrupt withdrawal.
Photo of an Iraqi family near the Iranian border courtesy of Michael Yon.
The price of such short-sighted political miscalculations will be paid for with the blood of Iraqi, men, women, and children. They do not want an even wider civil war, but lack any authority or capability to stop it on their own. No one can predict just how bad the violence would become, but anyone addressing the situation honestly must acknowledge that the number of those killed, injured and displaced will be far greater than the already unacceptable casualties thus far.
The Democratic PartyÂ’s intention is not genocide in Iraq, but if they come to power in Congress, that is almost assuredly what they will cause. Their much-discussed and on-going drive for isolationism is precursor to mass murder.
And yet, Iraqi civilians will not be the only victims of a Democratic Congress. A Democratic House that refuses to allow American forces the opportunity to attempt to stabilize a situation we created will have no political capital to intwt in interceding in other conflicts where we have even less direct interests.
As Hanson notes in his article linked above, no action abroad will be permissible if we withdraw from Iraq. There can be no intervention to stop the genocide in Darfur. There can be no intervention in any other "hot spots" that may develop around the world ,because a Democratic Congress that abandoned Iraq will have committed itself to a policy of non-intervention worldwide.
It is well within the realm of possibility that American voters will determine with their votes on November 7 whether or not we will see this mistake of inaction repeated in other nations in the Middle East and Africa in coming years.
The cost in blood and treasure of the current "Republican" war may yet pale in comparison to the human suffering imposed by a pending Democratic "peace."
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The politicians who will withdraw the troops from Iraq and Afganistan are not the politicians who will want to deploy troops to Darfur.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at October 24, 2006 12:08 PM (oC8nQ)
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No one reads history anymore. South Vietnam did not collapse until the Congress cut their military funding. And the slaughter that followed was horrific.
Posted by: Dawnfire82 at October 24, 2006 07:01 PM (RvTAf)
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No one reads history anymore. South Vietnam did not collapse until the Congress cut their military funding. And the slaughter that followed was horrific.
Or maybe they just don't care what happens to the Iraqis in the first place. Their own moral self righteousness is more important.
Posted by: Dawnfire82 at October 24, 2006 07:02 PM (RvTAf)
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Oh, god, now it's the conservatives who are urging us to abandon our national interests in the service of people elsewhere. America must do, first of all, what is right for America. And that means telling the Iraqis that we do not have infinite patience, money and lives, and that they must work this out on their own.
Your argument might have some merit if we could actually prevent genocide in Iraq by staying. Unfortunately, genocide has already taken place in Iraq, unless you have some other word for 600,000 dead Iraqis (if you want to dispute the figure, please go do your own peer-reviewed study). Iraq gets
worse the more we stay, not better. We destroyed the country, made it worse off than under Saddam (it's un-PC to say that, but it's undeniably true). We at least owe it to them not to continue an occupation that is fueling a genocidal war.
And Dawnfire82? You might want to look at how many troops Nixon had pulled out of Vietnam by the 1972 election. If Bush was as much of a cut-and-runner as Nixon was, I'd be ecstatic. More than that, though, nobody ever explains how we could have helped matters by staying longer. Fewer Vietnamese died at the hands of the Communists (horrible as they were) than as a result of the actual war, and while Pol Pot was a genocidal madman it's not clear that we could have stopped him simply by remaining in Vietnam (unless we stayed forever).
The fact is this: committing to stay in Iraq until it is a stable, peaceful, pro-American democracy is the same as committing to stay until monkeys can fly. It means
staying forever. If you can come up with an alternative between staying forever and telling them we have to go, let's hear it. And don't say "win" because we can't "win" another country's civil war.
Posted by: M.A. at October 24, 2006 07:17 PM (u4Rnt)
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Let's see if I understand:
Staying there gets Iraqis killed, so we cannot leave because that would get Iraqis killed?
Posted by: dzho at October 24, 2006 07:27 PM (jb33V)
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What everyone seems to forget in this debate is whether or not the United States, no, scratch that, the PEOPLE of the United States still believe in the principles of our nation and whether or not they're worth fighting for, and yes; dying for.
Our founding fathers stated that All people have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. They didn't say 'only those living in these thirteen colonies.
If it takes forever then so be it, if we fight to free the oppressed then we can hold our heads high.
M.A. and so many others apparently feel it better to watch from a safe distance (but is it?) and complain about why we're not somewhere else, doing what we're already doing for the people of Iraq, helping them free themselves from tyranny.
Posted by: Rick Howard at October 24, 2006 07:39 PM (7MWQq)
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What everyone seems to forget in this debate is whether or not the United States, no, scratch that, the PEOPLE of the United States still believe in the principles of our nation and whether or not they're worth fighting for, and yes; dying for.
Our founding fathers stated that All people have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. They didn't say 'only those living in these thirteen colonies.
If it takes forever then so be it, if we fight to free the oppressed then we can hold our heads high.
M.A. and so many others apparently feel it better to watch from a safe distance (but is it?) and complain about why we're not somewhere else, doing what we're already doing for the people of Iraq, helping them free themselves from tyranny.
Posted by: the commoner at October 24, 2006 07:40 PM (7MWQq)
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ForNow, it's been two years since that first study -- how come nobody has tried to do a more "credible" study? Apart from the whole thing about Iraq being dangerous and all. It might have been credible in 2004 to say that there had been no alternative study. In 2006 there's been plenty of time for non-Lancet alternatives and none are forthcoming.
Also,
here's a debunking of the "debunkers" of the Lancet study.
As for the commoner, if you don't understand that the Founding Fathers did in fact value the freedom of America over the freedom of the rest of the world, you don't understand the concept of patriotism and national interest. Which, come to think of it, is true of many conservatives these days.
Posted by: M.A. at October 24, 2006 08:50 PM (brQsT)
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"is the same as committing to stay until monkeys can fly" a statement that pathetic makes you look like a complete fool. Why would anyone consider anything else you have to say. The MSM and Dems claim all is lost, yet in any measurement of history this war is still a huge success. Is it nasty, tough and tragic? Of course it is as are all wars. Retreat and defeat has so many more possible tragic consequences and will so embolden our enemies it will make this current battle look pale in comparison.
Lets be honest this is not about Bush lied or Bush is incompetent this is about the Dems lust for power consequences be damed. Bush is not in the basement picking bombing targets like LBJ he is taking his advice from the Generals in the field. Everytime the MSM and the Dems claims he is incompetent or has no plan they are just trashing the brass and could careless about the troups. The Dems just want power and the MSM is enabling them and it's all enough to make me puke.
I have wondered many times how this war would look if this country was united. But again thanks to the "power at any price Dems" and the terrorists they keep cheering on, that can not be known. I also love how the left blames Bush for the lack of bipartisanship in Washington as if he has said anything compared to what has been tossed his way.
The left can dream all they want about the coming Dem tsunami and relish in the last MSM push poll. I'll sleep well tonight comfortable in the sanity of the American people. Regardless of what the MSM claims will happen I am confident these pathetic clowns will never regain control.
Posted by: TitanTrader at October 24, 2006 09:05 PM (sRKVr)
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Saddam Husein is gone and Iraq is no longer a threat. The question is whether democracy can be achieved in Iraq through our presence at an acceptable cost or whether we should prop up one or more authoritarian regimes in Iraq and leave.
I don't have the answer to that question. I do know that the Democrats are not capable of addressing it at all. A large Democrat majority in Congress would be a disaster for American policy.
Yes, it would be a replay of 1974 when the Democrats undercut our Vietnamese allies by withdrawing financial support for the war at a critical point, throwing away an American victory in the Viet Nam conflict and setting back American foreign policy for at least 6 years.
One thing I am sure of. We must be involved militarily in the Middle East indefinitely. It will be costly and horrendous mistakes will be made. The Republicans still seem willing to pay the cost and play the game in spite of the inevitable mistakes and setbacks. The Democrats consistently play the role of an opportunistic, irresponsible minority party that would compromise American lives and vital interests to regain power. Unfortunately we are stuck with the Republicans since the Democrats are unfit to lead the nation.
Posted by: charles R. Williams at October 24, 2006 09:11 PM (LzPcN)
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The MSM and Dems claim all is lost, yet in any measurement of history this war is still a huge success.
A national-security "success" is where you improve your position. America by any standard is worse off now than it was in 2002, having removed an enemy of the Islamists and of Iran (the evil but secular Saddam), destroyed Iraq, and bogged itself down in the middle of a civil war. The fact that you can call it a "success" because some elections were held is an example of why Republicans and conservatives can't be trusted with national security: they define national-security success by meaningless benchmarks instead of hard strategic benefits.
I don't have the answer to that question. I do know that the Democrats are not capable of addressing it at all. A large Democrat majority in Congress would be a disaster for American policy.
Huh? You admit you "don't know the answer" to our national-security dilemma, yet you say that the Democrats -- the only party that is offering solutions -- is not capable of addressing it?
Face it, this isn't 1974 any more. It's the
Republicans who have lost all semblance of seriousness on national security. The Democrats are offering a plan: tell the Iraqis we're losing patience and we're going to leave. You may not like that plan. But your party offers
nothing except some lame argument over whether they want to "stay the course" or "adapt to win."
There's only one party that is even remotely serious on national security: The Democrats. If you don't like their national-security ideas, come up with some of your own. But stop advocating that we do nothing except stay in Iraq forever.
One thing I am sure of. We must be involved militarily in the Middle East indefinitely.
Well, at least you're honest about wanting to stay forever. Of course, this is the very definition of why only Democrats are serious on national security: too many Republicans really believe that we need to be at war forever, but they don't have the nerve to state this nonsense out loud (instead they use fake meaningless language about "victory").
The Republicans are the party of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld -- which is to say, the party that no longer cares about America's national security interests. The Democrats, for all their faults, are the only serious national-security party left.
Posted by: M.A. at October 24, 2006 09:22 PM (brQsT)
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M.A. writes "Your argument might have some merit if we could actually prevent genocide in Iraq by staying. Unfortunately, genocide has already taken place in Iraq, unless you have some other word for 600,000 dead Iraqis"
MA, even assuming 600,000 over 3+ years is true, if we leave, it is likely millions will die.
Guess to people like you, 600,000 Arabs down ain't too much different than, say, 3,000,000. Once the 600,000 threshold was reached, it doesn't really matter if a few million more bite the dust in your malignant-narcissistic, amoral world view.
They all look the same to you, no?
Posted by: ErisIDysnomia at October 24, 2006 09:39 PM (lFVRs)
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M.A. writes "America by any standard is worse off now than it was in 2002"
I applaud M.A. for being the world's Owner and Master of Standards. He's certainly considered all the alternative standards, and judged accordingly.
Bow to the master! Hail the intellect and expertise of M.A.! Hail Caesar!
Posted by: ErisIDysnomia at October 24, 2006 09:42 PM (lFVRs)
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MA, even assuming 600,000 over 3+ years is true, if we leave, it is likely millions will die.
Even assuming this is true -- and I would point out that a phased, gradual withdrawal by U.S. troops could help prevent that from happening; we wouldn't just pull everyone out at once -- what's your alternative? If we have to stay until Iraq is at peace, then we have to stay forever. And we cannot do that. Do you have an alternative plan that will allow us to a) stop millions from dying and b) not commit to staying in the country forever?
As for "they all look the same," I'm not the one who wanted to invade a secular Arab Muslim dictatorship because its people looked the same as the people who blew up the WTC....
Posted by: M.A. at October 24, 2006 09:45 PM (brQsT)
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I applaud M.A. for being the world's Owner and Master of Standards. He's certainly considered all the alternative standards, and judged accordingly.
Cute. But that I'm right is proven by one thing: conservatives cannot, do not, will not argue for the rightness of the Iraq war without citing things that aren't true. They say that Saddam was a threat to America, that he wouldn't let the U.N. inspectors in, that he really did have WMDs, that he was not an enemy of Bin Laden -- all untrue, but all things you have to believe to pretend that the invasion has been helpful, not harmful, to America's national security interests.
Posted by: M.A. at October 24, 2006 09:48 PM (brQsT)
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I have heard just one plan from the Dems. It's to re-deploy to Okinowa. You can call that a "serious plan" but anyone with a ounce of commensense knows thats a complete joke. You can claim " by any standard where worse off then 2002". Thats just more Dem and MSM hyper-pol. Tell that to the 4000 dead terrorists they themselves claim.
Many experts predicted attacks where going to increase before this election. Yes they want to affect this election but why? It's obvious they want Bush to look bad and get Dems elected. Only a fool needs to ask why.
Posted by: TitanTrader at October 24, 2006 09:48 PM (sRKVr)
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M.A. writes "Also, here's a debunking of the "debunkers" of the Lancet study."
M.A., Johns Hopkins caused the demise of patients a few years back because they didn't do the required research showing their "new" lung treatment had been found fatal in the 1950's.
Do a google search on "johns hopkins deaths pulmonary medline librarians"
So, how come you trust this politically-motivated "study" released by a leftward leaning professor and school a few weeks before an election?
See this professor's profile "Les Roberts" at Discover the Networks.org.
Posted by: ErisIDysnomia at October 24, 2006 09:51 PM (lFVRs)
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TitanTrader,
if you don't like Murtha's plan (where the word "Okinawa" only came up once), come up with a plan of your own that doesn't involve staying in Iraq forever.
As to the ramping up of attacks "before the elections," this is typical GOP narcissism -- assuming that everything that goes on in the world is all about what's good or bad for the GOP -- but it's also wrong on the merits. Bin Laden appeared in a video before the 2004 election because he knew it would help Bush. This was the judgment of the CIA, in any case, and it makes sense, since Bush has done exactly what Bin Laden wanted -- invade a Muslim country for no reason and confirm the bad things Bin Laden says about America. The last thing Bin Laden wants is a U.S. President who's serious about the terrorist threat, which is why he helped Kerry lose: Bin Laden knew that Kerry would be a more formidable enemy than the feckless Bush.
Posted by: M.A. at October 24, 2006 09:56 PM (brQsT)
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M.A. writes "Cute. But that I'm right is proven by one thing: conservatives cannot, do not, will not argue for the rightness of the Iraq war without citing things that aren't true. They say that Saddam was a threat to America, that he wouldn't let the U.N. inspectors in, that he really did have WMDs, that he was not an enemy of Bin Laden -- all untrue, but all things you have to believe to pretend that the invasion has been helpful, not harmful, to America's national security interests."
I apologize to other readers for the pronounced arrogance of M.A.
I've been to Saudi. The Saudis themselves have deformed children in their provinces bordering Iraq from Saddam's chemical warfare.
Sir, all the things you claim as untrue in your capacity to do the required investigations of easily-available material to confirm it.
I think you're in a panic because your leftist worldview is crumbling. I feel really sorry for you.
Posted by: ErisIDysnomia at October 24, 2006 09:56 PM (lFVRs)
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ErislDysnomia, you claim that my "worldview is crumbling," yet you merely confirm my worldview: you cannot cite any truthful evidence in support of the Iraq war. (Instead you cite the fact that Saddam was evil and that he once had chemical weapons, both of which are true and both of which are irrelevant to America's security interests as of 2003.) The fact remains that Saddam was not a threat to America, that more Iraqis have died since the invasion than were dying in the last years of Saddam's reign, that Saddam had no WMDs and that the U.N. inspectors would have found this out if Bush hadn't kicked the inspectors out. Only by denying these facts can you justify the Iraq war -- but denial of basic facts is the reason why conservatives/Republicans are so weak on national security.
Posted by: M.A. at October 24, 2006 09:59 PM (brQsT)
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MA writes "but all things you have to believe to pretend that the invasion has been helpful, not harmful, to America's national security interests."
I see a lot of terrorists being killed in Baghdad, not Americans being killed in NYC as they were in london, spain etc. And none of the other attacks such as extensively catalogued on "the religion of peace.com"
I'd say on the face your argument is risible.
You need to learn how to argue rationally, not emotionally. Do your emotional venting on a street corner and spare us your babble.
Posted by: eris at October 24, 2006 10:01 PM (lFVRs)
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M.A. writes "ErislDysnomia, you claim that my "worldview is crumbling," yet you merely confirm my worldview"
M.A., your belief that what I write confirms your worldview is proof that your worldview is inded crumbling. The left s exposed for the amoral, malignantly narcissistic, nihilistic mental illness that it is.
You think too relativistically and postmodernistically to understand the profound nature of this message, but think about it some before replying. Thanks.
Posted by: eris at October 24, 2006 10:04 PM (lFVRs)
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Oh the old Bush lied meme. I guess when all else fails you can allways jump back on that one. I guess you know we are all sick of listing all of what the dems said about WMD. Face it most Dems voted for the war. When the going got tough the Summer Soliders rebuffed. You can claim retreat and defeat is a plan will find out soon enough if the American people believe its a plan.
Posted by: TitanTrader at October 24, 2006 10:05 PM (sRKVr)
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As I have now won the argument with MA, who persists in arguing from the emotions rather than from logic, I now am going to bed.
Good night all!
Posted by: eris at October 24, 2006 10:06 PM (lFVRs)
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I see a lot of terrorists being killed in Baghdad, not Americans being killed in NYC as they were in london, spain etc.
Again, you show why conservatives aren't serious about national security: you talk as if "terrorists" are a fixed pool, a finite resource, and if they're in Iraq they can't be anywhere else. Liberals understand the concept that there are many different kinds of terrorists and that they must be a) turned against each other and b) kept from recruiting more. Conservatives pretend that terrorists are all one group, like an army, and console themselves with the false belief that a terrorist killed in Iraq would otherwise have been a terrorist killing in America...
Posted by: M.A. at October 24, 2006 10:06 PM (brQsT)
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Face it most Dems voted for the war.
Even that's not true. A slim majority of
Senate Democrats voted for the use of force resolution, to their shame. But most
House Democrats didn't vote for it, 21 Senate Democrats voted against it, and most rank-and-file Democrats were against the war. Here's what Barack Obama said in 2002:
"I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history.
"I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a U.S. occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda.
"I am not opposed to all wars. I'm opposed to dumb wars."
So while some Democrats were for the war, most of the people who were against the war -- and therefore in favor of America's best national security interests -- were Democrats.
Posted by: M.A. at October 24, 2006 10:09 PM (brQsT)
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Oh the rock star speaks while he was in the state senate no less. If "most of the people where against the war" why did most of the people re-elect GWB and increase Republican control thru-out the nation?
Posted by: TitanTrader at October 24, 2006 10:14 PM (sRKVr)
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TitanTrader, I didn't say "most of the people were against the war." I said that of the people who were against the war, most of those people were Democrats. Nearly all Republicans were so weak on national security that they blindly supported the Iraq war. Not all Democrats opposed the war, but most Democrats did, and that proves that the Democrats are more serious than the Republicans on national security.
Posted by: M.A. at October 24, 2006 10:17 PM (brQsT)
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No thats what you said I suggest you re-read it. Regardless just because the MSM and the Dems continue to cry about the war doesnt make them stronger on NAT SEC. It just make em a bunch of whimps. Just as their continued crying about the econ dosen't make them stronger on the econ. It just makes em a bunch of socailist, redistributing commies. And with that good night and good luck.
Posted by: TitanTrader at October 24, 2006 10:28 PM (sRKVr)
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> Unfortunately, genocide has already taken place in Iraq, unless you have some other word for 600,000 dead Iraqis (if you want to dispute the figure, please go do your own peer-reviewed study).
600,000 is a propaganda figure, and easily recognizable as such. No one else has come up with a figure anywhere close to it.
> Iraq gets worse the more we stay, not better.
Debatable at best. And that's being kind. Much of Iraq's infrastructure has been rebuilt, free elections have been held, most of Iraq is realitvely peaceful, the Iraqi army has been substantially rebuilt and trained by our troops, the economy is growing by leaps and bounds, and much more. Sure, there's a lot that weighs against all that, but ... it's only been 3 years. You sound like the press trying to call the Iraq war a quagmire at the 3-week point.
> We destroyed the country, made it worse off than under Saddam (it's un-PC to say that, but it's undeniably true).
I deny it's true. Can't be very undeniable. It's not America that is destroying Iraq now, if you understand the concept of "civil war".
> We at least owe it to them not to continue an occupation that is fueling a genocidal war.
Again, an assertion, not an argument.
> And Dawnfire82? You might want to look at how many troops Nixon had pulled out of Vietnam by the 1972 election. If Bush was as much of a cut-and-runner as Nixon was, I'd be ecstatic.
That statement demonstrates either ignorance of the history or deliberate obtuseness. Nixon pulled Americans out of Vietnam by gradually standing up the South Vietnamese army, and promising to support them financially and with air support. This approach didn't collapse until Congress deliberately cut off all that funding and support. Which led almost immediately to the slaughter of hundreds of thousands.
> More than that, though, nobody ever explains how we could have helped matters by staying longer. Fewer Vietnamese died at the hands of the Communists (horrible as they were) than as a result of the actual war, and while Pol Pot was a genocidal madman it's not clear that we could have stopped him simply by remaining in Vietnam (unless we stayed forever).
Given the record of worldwide communism for global murder in the last century, it's shameless to claim fewer would have died if we hadn't been there. Ever hear of the "killing fields" of Cambodia? The killing of millions was a part of every successful communist revolution. Again, it's absolutely shameless to try to blame this on the US.
But it is at least on topic. Here is the one real comparison between Iraq and Vietnam: that willingness of so many to argue in favor of the enemy and against their own.
It's possible to argue seriously that Iraq was a mistake, but by now the die is cast, and we are at war. War has a way of reducing complex issues to a very simple dynamic: us or them. It is unconscionable to suggest that we just pull out with a mumbled apology and let some of the most heartless and wicked killers in the world destroy an entire nation.
> The fact is this: committing to stay in Iraq until it is a stable, peaceful, pro-American democracy is the same as committing to stay until monkeys can fly. It means staying forever.
Two problems with that statement: 1) What you say is not a fact, just an opinion with scant reason. 2) What you say is also a logical fallacy: a false dilemma. There are more choices than, "Leave now" or "Stay forever". For example, a) stay another year, b) another 2 years, c) another 3 years, d) until the Iraqi army reaches 95% e) until all militias have disbanded or been placed under control of the central government, and so on.
> If you can come up with an alternative between staying forever and telling them we have to go, let's hear it. And don't say "win" because we can't "win" another country's civil war.
Done. See above.
It's easy to come up with alernatives. The hard part is to pick the best alternative and stick with it, because there will be opposition dedicated to trying to make you fail.
If self-rule was easy, there wouldn't have been so many banana republics in South America. And yet, the Germans do it, the Italians, do it, the Japanese do it. 60 years ago, a lot of people doubted that any of them were capable of it, based on their own history. Who's to say the Iraqi's can't manage it?
Oh, that's right. You.
Posted by: Tom Henderson at October 25, 2006 12:33 AM (ZQpjR)
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What's wrong with staying forever?
We've had bases in England, Germany, Italy and Japan for 60 years. We've closed some, but we'll probably have some there for another 100 years. It's a pretty good deal all around.
If we leave now and Iraq falls to complete civil war, Iran gets the south. That increases their part of the world supply of oil from about 11% to 18%. It means we no longer have them surrounded, and they can press their nuke development as fast as they want.
(It also means we give up on North Korea, and they can sell their fissile material and technology to Iran, giving them a leg up)
Once Iran has nukes, their internal politics will force them to use them. After all, the only justification the mullahs have to stay in power is the evil of Israel and the US.
So we save a couple of thousand US troops, and pay for it with New York, DC, Chicago and Los Angeles. And Tel Aviv, of course. Then we reply with a nuke launch that kills about 8 million Iranians.
After that, things get ugly.
Posted by: Svolich at October 25, 2006 03:31 AM (IaaeR)
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a Democratic Congress that abandoned Iraq will have committed itself to a policy of non-intervention worldwide.
That's obvious election-time bullshit. Dems won't have opposed intervention, but stupid & counterproductive intervention. The Dems' categorical opposition to feckless intervention commits them to being opposed to Iraq, but doesn't foreclose action in, say, Darfur.
Posted by: jpe at October 25, 2006 04:47 AM (mX/Vp)
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unless you have some other word for 600,000 dead Iraqis
Until such time as Al-Jazeera shows some substantial fraction of those fresh graves on video, I'm forced to conclude the "study" is crap.
Are you effectively alleging that perhaps Al-Jazeera is engaging in a coverup too?
You can't hide 600,000 fresh graves in this age of video cell phones.
As the old Burger King ocmmercial said: "where's the beef?"
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 25, 2006 10:23 AM (AuPsg)
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Really, jpe? I'd say it's bullshit that the Dems would agree to "action" (as you put it) in Darfur. Oh yeah it sounds great in principle, but it'd get messy real quick.
How long after any deployment of US ground forces do you think it would be before the first teary eyed Sudanese woman went on CNN/BBC/al-Jazeera to claim the US forces killed her son and destroyed her house? 1, maybe 2 hours? And how long after that before ANSWER and Code Pink hold their first "stop the war" protest in Washington DC? 1, maybe 2, days?
As I said, any intervention in Darfur would get messy. We'd be chasing those Janjaweed militias, who like guerillas everywhere would be hard to find. Further, just like Iraq it would "create terrorists", because Jihadists would sign up to go fight us - again, just like Iraq.
Posted by: Tom the Redhunter at October 25, 2006 08:00 PM (uj7Or)
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October 23, 2006
U.S. Soldier Missing in Baghdad
Breaking on
al-Reuters:
A U.S. soldier was reported missing in Baghdad on Monday, the military said.
The soldier, part of a multi-national division in the Iraqi capital, went missing at about 7:30 p.m. local time, the U.S. military said in a statement.
"Coalition and Iraqi Security Forces immediately responded to attempt to locate the soldier, the search is ongoing," the statement said.
The limited information coming out thus far does not indicate the circumstances under which the soldier went missing. In June, two soldiers were captured, tortured and eventually beheaded after a larger force was drawn away and their isolated position was overrun.
It has not been confirmed that this soldier was indeed captured, but that is of course the fear.
More as this develops.
Update: Fox News television mentioned the story briefly. The soldier, a translator, was kidnapped. The kidnapping was reported by an Iraqi civilian who witnessed it..
As expected, the bottomfeeders at the Democratic Underground are already insisting that any impending torture is, of course, President Bush's fault for signing the Military Commissions Act nine days ago.
Never miss a chance, kids, no matter how petty.
Update: This may be something:
An employee at Baghdad's al-Furat TV, which was raided by American forces earlier Monday, said the U.S. forces conducting the search told him they were looking for an abducted American officer of Iraqi descent.
The employee said U.S. soldiers and Mouwafak al-Rubaie, the government's national security adviser who went to the station during the raid, told him the missing officer had left to join family members in Baghdad's Karadah district.
The officer's wife, also an Iraqi-American, was reportedly in the capital visiting family, according to the reports passed on by the al-Furat employee.
Having relatives in the combat zone means that this particular soldier had a great degree of potential exposure. I hope that whoever kidnapped the missing soldier did not use his family members or his spouse as bait leading to his capture.
Update: Snatched on the way to his family? that is what I take away from this line:
American troops who raided Baghdad's al-Furat TV on Monday said they were looking for an abducted American officer of Iraqi descent who had gone to join family members in Karradah.
This is starting to sound like this specific officer may have been targeted, bring about the possibility that whoever took him is looking for intelligence, not just a random soldier to torture for propaganda purposes ahead of the election.
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Excerpted and linked at Bill's Bites.
So, did this guy slip off alone to see a friend or does someone in his chain of command deserve a firing squad for incompetence? I had to think about either possibility but I can't think of a third.
Posted by: Bill Faith at October 23, 2006 07:46 PM (n7SaI)
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...
hate to think... Next week I'm going to learn to type.
Posted by: Bill Faith at October 23, 2006 07:48 PM (n7SaI)
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I guess the torture and multilation of previous captives was in anticipation of President Bush signing the Military Commissions act long before anyone thought it would be needed to counter the traitors from the left wing democ'rat party. The more the left wing liberal say the more stupid they sound.
Posted by: Scrapiron at October 24, 2006 12:26 AM (vFS/o)
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When Narrative is More Important than Reality
Pat Tillman, a former NFL safety with the Arizona Cardinals, quit the NFL in May of 2002 and joined the Army eight months after the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks. He enlisted along with his brother Kevin Tillman, who gave up his own chance to play professional baseball. Both brothers excelled in the Army and were assigned to the 75th Ranger Regiment, and saw duty in Iraq and Afghanistan. Pat Tillman was killed by "friendly fire" in Afghanistan on April 22, 2004.
I thank the Tillmans for their service in the American military. They both gave up potential fame and fortune to serve our country, something that is increasingly rare among celebrities of this age. They put America first, and their own dreams and ambitions second. I was touched by their personal sacrifice, and felt sorrow when I learned that Pat Tillman had given his life for his nation.
Kevin Tillman has since left the U.S. Military, and on October 19, published an article remembering his brother and condemning U.S foreign policy towards combating terrorism.
When you read his article you can feel the frustration and anger Kevin Tillman feels, no doubt due to his own experiences as a soldier and as someone who has experienced direct personal loss as result of the War on Terror. That does not excuse him, however, from using his position of what Maureen Dowd called "absolute moral authority" when applying it to Cindy Sheehan, to spread unsupported hyperbole, innuendo, and half-truths.
Tillman repeats common canards of the anti-war left, but his own military service does not make for him an unassailable shield, nor does restating them make these tired conventions any more true. Saddam Hussein's Iraq did, without any doubt at all, harbor terrorists. We know the most famous of them by name, including Abu Nidal, Abu Abbas, and Abdul Rahman Yasin. They all killed Americans, and they all lived as Saddam's guests. Yasin was the man who built the 1993 World Trade Center bomb laced with sodium cyanide, the first and so far only attempted chemical weapons attack on American civilians.
Only those on the anti-war left ever (purposefully) misstated that Iraq was involved with the terrorist attacks of September 11, and only the anti-war left ever stated that Saddam's Iraq received uranium from Niger. The Bush Adminstration did not hold those positions. An honest accounting would show that the United States invaded Iraq not because of any involvement with September 11, but because September 11 made us realize how much of a threat Saddam's Iraq could be. Saddam's Iraq were behind previous terror attacks against U. S. targets, and retained the know-how to reconstitute both biological and chemical weapons programs.
Tillman's diatribe is dramatized hyperbole, and some of his commentary is purposefully erroneous and obtuse.
His statement that the suspension of habeus corpus has even occurred is an outright falsehood; no foreign soldier in any war in this nationÂ’s history has ever had habeus corpus rights, and no American civilian is threatened by the Military Commissions Act, which applies only to "alien unlawful enemy combatants"... foreign terrorists.
And yet, Kevin Tillman does provide one unassailable truth in his diatribe, when he stated that, "Somehow a narrative is more important than reality."
His narrative—devoid of concrete facts, long on assertion, hyperbole, and emotional appeal—is just that kind of narrative.
Kevin Tillman purposefully misstates why we went to war in Iraq, even conflating the insurgency and the current sectarian violence as a reason for invasion, and he fundamentally misunderstands—or perhaps avoids—recognizing the essential fact that al Qaeda and terrorist-supporting states such as Syria and Iran have decided to make Iraq the central front in the War on Terror.
Like it or not, Iraq is where the terrorsits are, partially due to our actions, but also due to the emphasis terrorists and their supporters have poured into winning in Iraq.
This leftist anti-war narrative relies on the misguided belief that if we withdraw from Iraq, that somehow, terrorists would cease trying to attack and kill American civilians. That misguided position of disengagement should have died when we were attacked on September 11, 2001, long before we ever invaded Iraq or Afghanistan.
Islamic terrorists have stated time and again the intention to come after us, no matter what we do, and our past withdrawals have only served to embolden them.
It's too bad Kevin Tillman couldn't work that one over-arching and essential fact into his narrative.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Since no less an authority than Maureen Dowd concedes that Kevin Tillman speaks from a platform of "absolute moral authority" that means that she must also concede that every brother, sister, parent and child of a soldier who has given his life in the war on terror also speaks from that same platform. It's not just the leftists that are alloted the moral high ground. Also doesn't liberalism deny that there are any moral absolutes - oh that's right it's only when we're talking about abortion, profiling, etc.
Posted by: Doc at October 23, 2006 01:38 PM (c1Kr9)
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thank goodness that some clear thinking patriot named Roy left this comment under the KT article at "truth"dig.
thanks Roy whoever you are!!!
Comment #32122 by Roy on 10/22 at 10:10 am
I appreciate your service to your country by joining the armed forces with your brother. The handling of your brotherÂ’s death was mismanaged, no question about that. However, your nobleness in joining the armed forces came with a commitment on your part, and you donÂ’t have the luxury of picking or choosing your duty assignments. You can personally agree or disagree, but you knew that when you signed on the dotted line, you, like every other soldier, serve at the pleasure of the commander in chief. Did it not cross your mind when you signed on that you were going to end up in the middle east following 9/11? I mean, if you felt so strongly that being sent to Iraq to fight was so wrong, and so illegal, and so immoral, why didnÂ’t you stand on your principles and just walk away and face the consequences?
The pot shots you take at the elected leaders of your own country after the fact is striking, and your choice of verbage speaks to your own personal hatred of your own government. I just wonder if the situation on the ground were different right now if you would be so overly critical and paint our leaders as “criminals.”
Your “paid for” president bashing story published here within this web site discredits you personally, and your otherwise noble service. You have managed to turn yourself into just another left wing bomb thrower with your hypocritcal diatribe by “breaking your silence.” You do a disservice sir to the men and women continuing to serve in our armed forces in the middle east. The difference between you, and the men who served in WW II, is the veteran returning home from Iwo Jima, no matter what his personal inner feelings might have been, would not take money in return for spewing venom about the mission he was tasked with undertaking.
Posted by: DLJ at October 23, 2006 02:47 PM (TQlCO)
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Considering that Abu Nidal was quite probably executed by Iraqi security, and considering also that no one in the American intelligence community has ever asserted that Abdul Yasin was operating on behalf of Iraq (no matter what your rigorous research on Wikipedia and Answers,com might suggest), you're left with the fantastic claim that Leon Klinghoffer's 1985 murder somehow helps to validate this abjectly stupid war.
As for the claim that Iraq was tied to the September 11 attacks, I wish I knew what to tell you here, but you're absolutely off your nut if you think that only the "anti-war left" believed that's what supporters of the war were doing. The
Weekly Standard's Stephen Hayes has been screaming incoherently about this very connection for years now (to no avail), more or less parroting claims made by Laurie Mylroie and Douglas Feith (from whom Hayes apparently gets most of his "intelligence" tips).
And finally, as for "withdrawals" -- or "redeployments," which you seem to consider to be the same thing -- how "emboldened" must the terrorists have been when the US shifted critical assets from Afghanistan to Iraq in preparation for this glorious struggle on behalf of Leon Klinghoffer's memory?
Posted by: d at October 23, 2006 08:59 PM (LHK5X)
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To be fair, it's got to be difficult when the battle group he was assigned with was the one providing the 'friendly fire' that killed his brother. FUBAR comes to mind, and understandable that he would project incompentence experienced in the field throughout military command.
Posted by: bains at October 24, 2006 01:11 AM (u78xz)
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I'm confused.
Let me see if I can understand what you're saying. Iran and Syria made America invade Iraq so that it would become the central front in the War on Terror?
But then why did you say last year;
So much for al-Zaraqawi being "the greatest" if he has to kidnap and drug people to carry out suicide attacks. It seems that the seemingly inexhaustible supply of willing suicide bombers that we westerners have come to fear is exhaustible after all. Some might even be willing to think that this validates the Bush/Rumsfeld "flypaper" strategy.
So were the Iranian and Syrians in on the flypaper thing? Is is good or bad that Iraq in a terrorists cause, recruitment and training ground?
Also how did we anti-war liberals get Bush to talk about Niger yellowcake in the SoU speech?
Dick Cheney said:
RUSSERT: The plane on the ground in Iraq used to train non-Iraqi hijackers.
Do you still believe there is no evidence that Iraq was involved in September 11?
CHENEY: Well, what we now have that's developed since you and I last talked, Tim, of course, was that report that's been pretty well confirmed, that he did go to Prague and he did meet with a senior official of the Iraqi intelligence service in Czechoslovakia last April, several months before the attack.
Why do you help cover the lies of liars CY? Do they pay you? Is your ego so fragile that admitting you voted for foolish liars would destroy it? Do you like lies and just want to spread them around?
Or are you just plain stupid and canÂ’t tell the difference?
Posted by: salvage at October 24, 2006 07:22 AM (xWitf)
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Let me see if I can understand what you're saying. Iran and Syria made America invade Iraq so that it would become the central front in the War on Terror?
Nice job of mischaracterizing what I wrote, though hardly untypical. Iran, Syria, and al Qaeda decided that Iraq would be part of a central war
after we invaded, seeing material support of terrorists and insurgents as a way to "beat" politically an American military they are too weak to confront directly.
As far the flypaper strategy, you might want to address Abu Musab al-Zarqawi for his take on that, or Ayman al-Zawahiri, who both agree that al Qaeda is getting worn down in Iraq, with many of their most experienced operatives getting killed in combat against American-led forces. On second thought, maybe you should just address that to al Zawahiri. Zarqawi become one of those dead experinced terrorists just a few months ago.
As for Bush's "16 words," he
never said that Niger supplied uranium to Iraq, only that it
sought uranium. The apolitical
Factcheck.org verifies this is accurate.
And so another "reality-based" myth down the toilet. Not that youÂ’ll stop believing in it, of course.
As for the link to the White House transcript that you selectively quite from to attack Cheney, I ask readers to read the larger context of the comments, and see if they come up with the same conclusion you did (my bold):
RUSSERT: Let me turn to Iraq. When you were last on this program, September 16, five days after the attack on our country, I asked you whether there was any evidence that Iraq was involved in the attack and
you said no.
Since that time, a couple of articles have appeared which I want to get you to react to. The first: The Czech interior minister said today that an Iraqi intelligence officer met with Mohammed Atta, one of the ringleaders of the September 11 terrorists attacks on the United States, just five months before the synchronized hijackings and mass killings were carried out.
And this from James Woolsey, former CIA director: ``We know that at Salman Pak, in the southern edge of Baghdad, five different eye witnesses--three Iraqi defectors and two American U.N. inspectors--have said, and now there are aerial photographs to show it, a Boeing 707 that was used for training of hijackers, including non-Iraqi hijackers, trained very secretly to take over airplanes with knives.''
And we have photographs. As you can see that little white speck, and there it is.
RUSSERT: The plane on the ground in Iraq used to train non-Iraqi hijackers.
Do you still believe there is no evidence that Iraq was involved in September 11?
CHENEY: Well, what we now have that's developed since you and I last talked, Tim, of course, was that report that's been pretty well confirmed, that he did go to Prague and he did meet with a senior official of the Iraqi intelligence service in Czechoslovakia last April, several months before the attack.
Now, what the purpose of that was, what transpired between them,
we simply don't know at this point. But that's clearly an avenue that we want to pursue.
RUSSERT: What we do know is that Iraq is harboring terrorists. This was from Jim Hoagland in The Washington Post that George W. Bush said that Abdul Ramini Yazen (ph), who helped bomb the World Trade Center back in 1993, according to Louis Freeh was hiding in his native Iraq. And we'll show that right there on the screen. That's an exact quote.
If they're harboring terrorist, why not go in and get them?
CHENEY: Well, the evidence is pretty conclusive that the Iraqis have indeed harbored terrorists. That wasn't the question you asked the last time we met. You asked about evidence involved in September 11.
Cheney made it quite clear that he was not ready to make a direct link, only that charges made that day by the Czech interior minister was an interesting development worth pursuing to determine if there is any truth to the allegation.
Salvage then goes on a Franken-esque rant about “lying liars,” which is particularly rich considering his entire argument was based on purposefully mischaracterizing what others said in every single example he provided.
IÂ’ll leave it for others to determine which one of us is lying based upon the preponderance of the evidence.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 24, 2006 10:09 AM (g5Nba)
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d
Iraqi forced "probably" killed Abu Nidal?
No *&*( sherlock. What you tiny single neuron mind cant grasp is the question of WHY they would do that. Perhaps he ......knew something?
As far as Yasin- CY DIDNT assert he was acting on behalf of Iraq either. He asserted that Yasin- a terrorist who intended to kill 50,000 Americans by blowing up the WTC- was harbored by Sadaam Husseins regime.
Of course you'll reply that Yasin was "incarcerated" in Iraq all those years.
Yeah, sure he was.
Posted by: TMF at October 24, 2006 10:50 AM (+BgNZ)
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Okay, so Iran, Syria, and al Qaeda decided that Iraq would be part of a central war after you invaded.
So what that means is that the terrorists have adapted their strategy to BushÂ’s. That they have taken the invasion that was supposed to destroy them and made it work for them. They have more recruits, a cause to rally around and a trial by fire that is sure to create some hardcore and experienced killers.
Are we allowed to point out that means Bush played right into their hands with the invasion? That the invasion of Iraq has done nothing but good for the bad guys? Can I point out that there are more terrorists and attacks now then ever before? Do you know that the situation in Iraq is collapsing even faster into full out civil war, that each month is more violent than the one before? Or is all that part of the master plan?
Oh and here’s the thing, the point you can’t seem to get. Terrorism has no “front”, it never has and never will. Do you really think that terrorist cells around the world are packing their bags for Baghdad? “Well we were going to blow up California but gosh Iraq is just too tempting to pass up!”
This is a rather obvious point that you donÂ’t seem to understand, I wonder why?
As far the flypaper strategy, you might want to address Abu Musab al-Zarqawi for his take on that, or Ayman al-Zawahiri, who both agree that al Qaeda is getting worn down in Iraq, with many of their most experienced operatives getting killed in combat against American-led forces. On second thought, maybe you should just address that to al Zawahiri. Zarqawi become one of those dead experinced terrorists just a few months ago.
Your trust in the alleged writing of a terrorist leader is touching, gosh heÂ’d never lie!
Hmmm no experience operatives yet the Coalition body count is the highest itÂ’s been in nearly a year. WeirdÂ… unlessÂ… maybeÂ… the terrorists arenÂ’t getting worn down? That maybe theyÂ’re learning all kinds of new tricks and tactics?
See when your opinion is at odds with the reality itÂ’s time to look hard at your opinion because itÂ’s hard to argue with a pile of corpses.
As for Bush's "16 words," he never said that Niger supplied uranium to Iraq, only that it sought uranium. The apolitical Factcheck.org verifies this is accurate.
I did not have sex with that woman!
Yes you did! We have stains! DNA you liar!
Well ah oral seÂ… stuff isnÂ’t sexÂ… yeah thatÂ’s it.
Dude.
DonÂ’t.
Even.
There are endless examples of the Bush Administration talking incessantly about WMD. The most salient being Rummy saying “WE KNOW WHERE THEY ARE.” What was Powell talking about at the UN? How do you argue with that? You can’t. Stop.
Any mention of any WMD related material and Iraq was meant to make a connection. You want to parse the words in a Clintonesque attempt to make a lie the truth then go crazy. The rest of us know the reality; they ginned up the WMD to sell a war they thought they could win in a cakewalk.
We simply don't know at this point. But that's clearly an avenue that we want to pursue.
We donÂ’t know but weÂ’re going to keep talking about it like it could be true or is true!
I donÂ’t know if Confederate Yankee likes to dress sheep up like nuns and copulate with them in the basement, I just donÂ’t know at this point, this guy in Poland told me so, IÂ’ll investigate and get back to you. In the meantime, just to be on the safe side donÂ’t leave CY alone with any sheep or wimples.
Whenever your kind does this of wide-eyed innocence thing, I have to wonder, are you really his gullible or are you choosing to be this gullible? A child could see through the semantics and the plausible deniability. But you know what? What you canÂ’t deny? That at one point 70% of Americans thought there was a connection, now where the heck did that get that idea I wonder?
Fact: Iraq was invaded for WMD, not other reason is legal or even sane.
Fact: Iraq did not have WMD. At best you could argue that the Bush Admin was grotesquely incompetent and should all be fired at worst theyÂ’re liars who should be tried. Either scenario (and those are the only two that fit the facts) means that they deserve no support.
Fact: You continue to stick your fingers in a dyke that is nothing but holes. Iraq was a mistake on every level. There is nothing to defend and as each month crawls by and the pile of bodies gets higher and higher you are going to find yourself even more alone.
Posted by: salvage at October 24, 2006 11:21 AM (xWitf)
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salvage
The increasing pile of bodies is being created by terrorists, not George W. Bush.
Just wanted to re-set your moral equivalence compass back a few notches.
You can make the argument that we shouldnt be standing up to these people- but dont confuse who is actually creating the chaos and death
Posted by: TMF at October 24, 2006 01:26 PM (+BgNZ)
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The increasing pile of bodies is being created by terrorists, not George W. Bush.
Uh huh, that is literally true and beside the point.
Tell me, who created the environment for those terrorists? I don't recall daily multiple bombings when Saddam was running the place. I’ve never heard the term “Al Qeada In Iraq” until America invaded.
So guess what?
The bodies may not be the direct fault of Bush but they are certainly the result of his policies.
Everything that happens in Iraq is now the responsibility of Bush and America. Every attack on civilians and infrastructure is AmericaÂ’s duty to prevent. See no one asked you to invade, yÂ’all went and pulled that stunt on your own (ooops forgot Poland!) so itÂ’s all your responsibility.
ItÂ’s like Bush walked into a room full of buckets of gas and started flicking matches around, now that the fire has started his tireless defenders in the face of logic and reason are insisting itÂ’s the gasÂ’ fault for being so darn flammable.
You were warned that this would happen, you laughed it off with an unmatched hubris.
Just wanted to re-set your moral equivalence compass back a few notches.
That actually doesnÂ’t make any sense, a compass measures fixed variables, it cannot be put back any more than it can be put forward. I was making no argument about moral equivalence, I was stating facts; Iraq is in real trouble, people are dying there everyday in horrible and violent ways and itÂ’s all the ultimate responsibility of GW Bush and you.
But if you want to talk moral equivalence, whatÂ’s worse? Being murdered by SaddamÂ’s goons or being murdered by one of the many factions in Iraq today?
Posted by: salvage at October 24, 2006 02:14 PM (jQnuN)
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Yes- you are technically correct that there weren't many terrorist attacks when Sadaam was in power.
Thats because the terrorists were in power.
Posted by: TMF at October 24, 2006 03:14 PM (+BgNZ)
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Hyuck! That's funny, so when America was selling weapons to Saddam they were arming a terrorist! It's good that you can admit that.
So then I can say that it only bothers you when Iraqis are killed by Saddam, anyone else doesn't bother you?
Posted by: salvage at October 24, 2006 04:52 PM (jQnuN)
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Before we start piling up too many bodies at W's feet, has anyone stopped to consider how many of his own people Sadaam executed? Yes, I know "That was never given as a reason to go to war", but during WWII the extermination of European Judaism was never given as a reason to defeat Hitler, it was just a happy byproduct of removing a perverse despot. The same can be said of Sadaam
Posted by: doc at October 24, 2006 06:17 PM (c1Kr9)
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Sigh.
You are correct, CY.
Liberalism is indeed a "persistent vegetative state"
Exhibit A: "Salvage"
Ah the "we armed Saddam" canard.
Yeah, and we allied with the Soviets against the nazis also.
And at the time we "armed" saddam (also a falacy and not historically accurate) there was a little thing called the Islamic Revolution going on next door. It was sort of a priority at the time. And Saddam's mass murdering rampage and subsequent turn to jihadist language and training of his fedayeen (you know, the guys we are pretty much fighting now)didnt get into full swing until the 80s.
But like all liberals, you think in a completely historical vaccum and are incapable of seeing beyond your "getBushIhaterepublicansDemocratswillsavehumanityfromevil" prism.
What sad little people you all are.
Posted by: TMF at October 24, 2006 07:46 PM (cGtRE)
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October 20, 2006
Just Another Day in Tehran
Lovely:
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Friday called Israel's leaders a "group of terrorists" and threatened any country that supports the Jewish state.
"You imposed a group of terrorists ... on the region," Ahmadinejad said, addressing the U.S. and its allies. "It is in your own interest to distance yourself from these criminals... This is an ultimatum. Don't complain tomorrow."
"Nations will take revenge," he told a crowd of thousands gathered at a pro-Palestinian rally in the capital Tehran.
Ahmadinejad said Israel no longer had any reason to exist and would soon disappear.
"This regime, thanks to God, has lost the reason for its existence," he said.
"Efforts to stabilize this fake (Israeli) regime, by the grace of God, have completely failed... You should believe that this regime is disappearing," he said.
What Ahmadinejad's thinly-veiled threat failed to mention is that his apocalyptic Hojjatieh sect quite likely has the intention of "helping" Israel out of existence once Iran has both nuclear warheads and the ability to deliver them.
The implicit threats of this particular exchange, which CNN provides coverage of in greater depth, are directed at Europe:
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has warned Europe that it may pay a heavy price for its support of Israel.
"You should believe that this regime (Israel) cannot last and has no more benefit to you. What benefit have you got in supporting this regime, except the hatred of the nations?" he said in nationally broadcast speech Friday.
"We have advised the Europeans that the Americans are far away, but you are the neighbors of the nations in this region," he said.
"We inform you that the nations are like an ocean that is welling up, and if a storm begins, the dimensions will not stay limited to Palestine, and you may get hurt."
I wonder how much longer the pint-sized Holocaust denier will continue to issue threats against the world community without any measurable response from those countries he has threatened to put in the crosshairs.
Time and again, Ahmadinejad says Iran only wants to continue its nuclear program for peaceful means, only to quickly reissue threats that most understand to be links to implied of attacks by MIRV-equipped ICBMs.
I won't be shocked to find that the world will only recognize the threat that Ahmadinejad's Hojjatieh sect brings to hundreds of thousand if not millions of lives as they attempt to bring forth the Hidden Imam. I suspect it will only be after Iran's missiles are launched, and by then it will be far too late.
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What's Amarah Wit You?
A developing story in Iraq is the seizure of the southern Iraqi city of Amarah today by roughly 800 militiamen of Muqtada al-Sadr's al-Mahdi Army in response to the kidnapping of the teenage brother of the local head of the a-Madhi Army. the kidnapping came on the heels of the assassination of the head of police intelligence in the area, who belonged to another Shiite militia, the Badr Brigade. The
Associated Press is among many of the news organizations covering the story.
The takeover of Amarah is just the latest example of intra-sectarian fighting in Iraq that shows that the current U.S. strategy in Iraq is not working. As a recently-back-from-Iraq Phillip Carter noted yesterday:
During the last two years, the U.S. presence in Iraq has consolidated in massive superfortresses like Anaconda and shut down dozens of smaller bases and outposts across the country. This operational withdrawal was meant to make the U.S. presence more efficient and to reduce the risk of having small units deployed on small bases where they might be vulnerable to insurgent attack; it also forced the Iraqis to become more self-sufficient in securing their own cities. Unfortunately, this has come at a price. When a massive flare-up happens in places like Balad, Tikrit, or Kirkuk, all cities without a permanent U.S. presence, our military must respond from afar, its effectiveness and responsiveness limited by distance.
* * *
This violent weekend proves that America needs to radically change its course in Iraq, while some form of victory still lies within our grasp. First, the U.S. military must reverse its trend of consolidation and redeploy its forces into Iraq's cities. Efficiency and force protection cannot define our military footprint in Iraq; if those are our goals, we may as well bring our troops home today. Instead, we must assume risk by pushing U.S. forces out into small patrol bases in the middle of Iraq's cities where they are able to work closely with Iraqi leaders and own the streets. Counterinsurgency requires engagement. The most effective U.S. efforts thus far in Iraq have been those that followed this maxim, like the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment in Tal Afar, which established numerous bases within the city and attacked the insurgency from within with a mix of political, economic, and military action.
I hope that the current situation spurs military leaders in Iraq towards to solution that Carter rightly advocates, starting with a direct confrontation of the 800 al-Mahdi militiamen that have taken over Amarah.
Logistically, it isn't possible for just 800 unsupported militia fighters to establish and maintain the "total control"(as the media so breathlessly puts it) of a city as large as Amarah, which has an estimated population of 340,000 spread across the geographical boundaries formed by the fork of three rivers.
A more detailed satellite map from GlobalSecurity.org can be seen here.
Based upon map data alone, this would be an extremely difficult city for a much larger, better equipped and better trained conventional military force to hold, much less a militia. It seems that geography could be used to section off parts of the city, which could then be cleared of militiamen in the following manner.
Conventional military units could be used to set-up checkpoints in blockading positions around the roads leading into Amrah, while small special operations units from the Iraqi military and supported by U.S. intelligence and strike aircraft should be able to locate and observe concentrations of militiamen (untrained forces have a tendency to cluster) and inflict significant casualties with precision weapons. Militiamen patrolling the city in vehicles would seem to be prime targets for hit-and-run ambushes, which could be assembled on the fly with intelligence from overhead U.S. drone aircraft.
There is no need to engage these militia forces in a frontal assault with conventional forces that would lead to significant damage to the civilian infrastructure when precise intelligence, coordinated small arms and the use of smaller precision airborne munitions could achieve the same objectives.
If such a plan is able to be implemented, the militiamen would be forced to surrender, attempt to escape, or die as they move around the city. Once sufficiently weakened, conventional Iraqi Army and Police forces should be able to mop-up any remaining forces and reestablish control.
American and Iraqi military and police forces must rein in militias, reestablish localized bases across Iraq to better provide stability and quick response capabilities, and work to bring economic and political force to bear to make lasting changes on a local level.
I'm not sure if we need "more boots on the ground" to stabilize Iraq, but I am quite certain that we cannot improve the situation by isolating our forces in large bases and letting militias and sectarian gangs run free.
"All politics is local," said someone very wise. So are insurgencies, which cannot be defeated from the PX of a large megabase.
Update: Bill Roggio has related thoughts on dealing with Mahdi Army leader Muqtada al-Sadr.
Update: The Iraqi Army came in with two companies of soldiers from Basra, and have retaken the city. The threat of going up against a large conventional Army force was apparently enough for the militiamen.
As a side note, Wikipedia (where I got my population number from) claims Amarah's population as being 340,000 in 2002. Lexicorient.com places the city's population at 420,000 as of 2005. The AP article from today states that the population is 750,000.
I think we just found the missing people from the Lancet study.
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Don't you think the best approach to the Iraq problem would be a withdrawl to the port and selected oil fields that are easily defended. Then try to restrict entrance and exit from the country. Finally, allow these idiots to kill each other without trying to restict their efforts.
Posted by: David Caskey at October 20, 2006 11:31 AM (OSKRn)
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Dear David Caskey, thank you for openly mentioning the real reasons for war on Iraq:
"Don't you think the best approach to the Iraq problem would be a withdrawl to the port and selected oil fields that are easily defended."
WMD, democracy, freedom, ... ha, ha!
"Then ... exit from the country. Finally, allow these idiots to kill each other without trying to restict their efforts." - You are talking of men, women and children whose country YOUR military has invaded (though being warned) and which is in ruins now (even more than it was under the dictator Saddam) due to the ignorance of those who only believe in firepower.
Posted by: Hartmut Heinemann at October 23, 2006 11:51 AM (XPM/2)
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October 18, 2006
Johns Hopkins/Lancet Study Demolished
Via Bryan at
Hot Air, the politically-timed Johns Hopkins/Lancet study stating that more than 655,000 Iraqis have died as a result of the Iraq War has had its very suspect methodology
thoroughly crushed:
After doing survey research in Iraq for nearly two years, I was surprised to read that a study by a group from Johns Hopkins University claims that 655,000 Iraqis have died as a result of the war. Don't get me wrong, there have been far too many deaths in Iraq by anyone's measure; some of them have been friends of mine. But the Johns Hopkins tally is wildly at odds with any numbers I have seen in that country. Survey results frequently have a margin of error of plus or minus 3% or 5%--not 1200%.
The group--associated with the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health--employed cluster sampling for in-person interviews, which is the methodology that I and most researchers use in developing countries. Here, in the U.S., opinion surveys often use telephone polls, selecting individuals at random. But for a country lacking in telephone penetration, door-to-door interviews are required: Neighborhoods are selected at random, and then individuals are selected at random in "clusters" within each neighborhood for door-to-door interviews. Without cluster sampling, the expense and time associated with travel would make in-person interviewing virtually impossible.
However, the key to the validity of cluster sampling is to use enough cluster points. In their 2006 report, "Mortality after the 2003 invasion of Iraq: a cross-sectional sample survey," the Johns Hopkins team says it used 47 cluster points for their sample of 1,849 interviews. This is astonishing: I wouldn't survey a junior high school, no less an entire country, using only 47 cluster points.
Neither would anyone else. For its 2004 survey of Iraq, the United Nations Development Program (UNDP) used 2,200 cluster points of 10 interviews each for a total sample of 21,688. True, interviews are expensive and not everyone has the U.N.'s bank account. However, even for a similarly sized sample, that is an extraordinarily small number of cluster points. A 2005 survey conducted by ABC News, Time magazine, the BBC, NHK and Der Spiegel used 135 cluster points with a sample size of 1,711--almost three times that of the Johns Hopkins team for 93% of the sample size.
Since the beginning, Les Roberts, one of the primary authors of the study has mantained that the study is methodologically sound.
Uh, not quite:
Curious about the kind of people who would have the chutzpah to claim to a national audience that this kind of research was methodologically sound, I contacted Johns Hopkins University and was referred to Les Roberts, one of the primary authors of the study. Dr. Roberts defended his 47 cluster points, saying that this was standard. I'm not sure whose standards these are.
Appendix A of the Johns Hopkins survey, for example, cites several other studies of mortality in war zones, and uses the citations to validate the group's use of cluster sampling. One study is by the International Rescue Committee in the Democratic Republic of Congo, which used 750 cluster points. Harvard's School of Public Health, in a 1992 survey of Iraq, used 271 cluster points. Another study in Kosovo cites the use of 50 cluster points, but this was for a population of just 1.6 million, compared to Iraq's 27 million.
When I pointed out these numbers to Dr. Roberts, he said that the appendices were written by a student and should be ignored. Which led me to wonder what other sections of the survey should be ignored.
With so few cluster points, it is highly unlikely the Johns Hopkins survey is representative of the population in Iraq. However, there is a definitive method of establishing if it is. Recording the gender, age, education and other demographic characteristics of the respondents allows a researcher to compare his survey results to a known demographic instrument, such as a census.
Dr. Roberts said that his team's surveyors did not ask demographic questions. I was so surprised to hear this that I emailed him later in the day to ask a second time if his team asked demographic questions and compared the results to the 1997 Iraqi census. Dr. Roberts replied that he had not even looked at the Iraqi census.
And so, while the gender and the age of the deceased were recorded in the 2006 Johns Hopkins study, nobody, according to Dr. Roberts, recorded demographic information for the living survey respondents. This would be the first survey I have looked at in my 15 years of looking that did not ask demographic questions of its respondents. But don't take my word for it--try using Google to find a survey that does not ask demographic questions.
Reviews of the Johns Hopkins/Lancet study casts strong doubts upon the credibility of the methodology used. When compared to other studies, IÂ’d venture to say that the Johns Hopkins study is worthless and irreproducible, perhaps purposefully so. The timing of the report, once again issued in the weeks preceding a national election, casts strong doubts upon the intentions, credibility, and integrity of the researchers.
Then again, their campaign contributions and affiliations should have tipped you to their biases long ago.
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With such wonderful standards, I am doubly glad my son chose a state school over this supposed elite university. (My first happiness in his choice is in not paying over $40K per year.)
Posted by: MikeM at October 18, 2006 11:24 AM (Lz4EE)
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You have the right to block trolls. Enjoy living in a world where everyone agrees with you.
Anne Johnson
Posted by: pretty girl at October 18, 2006 11:56 AM (BvEoi)
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Why does the phrase "cluster f*ck" come to mind?
Posted by: Redhand at October 18, 2006 12:12 PM (7G9b2)
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Gee Anne, doesn't sound like you're too happy living in a world where everyone agrees with you....
Doesn't sound like you're too happy when people disagree with you.
Doesn't sound like you're too happy at all.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at October 18, 2006 12:18 PM (jHBWL)
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Wow, the author's credentials are certainly unassailable:
Mr. Moore, a political consultant with Gorton Moore International, trained Iraqi researchers for the International Republican Institute from 2003 to 2004 and conducted survey research for the Coalition Forces from 2005 to 2006.
Try again, brownshirts...
Posted by: dave™© at October 18, 2006 12:29 PM (pMgvj)
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Well, I'm going to back down here. Not because of Steven Moore, who is either manic compulsive or prone to exaggeration if he "wouldn't survey a junior high school, no less an entire country, using only 47 cluster points". But the IBC have released
a statement which gives far better arguments than asserting that so many people couldn't have died because it's more than died in the American civil war or other rubbish:One possible way of explaining such a very large number of small-scale unreported assaults is to suppose that many of these are the result of "secret" killings which have resulted from abduction, execution by gunfire, or beheading. But 42% of the 330,000 Lancet-estimated violent deaths in this final 13-month period are ascribed to "explosives/ordnance", car bombs, or air strikes, all of which carry a fairly heavy and hardly 'secret' toll (and will generally create at least 3 times as many wounded).They're right: the IBC might not pick up anonymous murders, but they would indeed pick up car bombs.
Of course, as everyone sensible in this debate (including myself) have done up to now, they continue the grand tradition of qualifying their remarks by saying that they haven't
proved that the figures are wrong. The IBC numbers are also inaccurate, and they acknowledge this fact. And I still want to know about excess deaths, and the Lancet survey was the first to make the attempt. Unfortunately, it looks like I'm still waiting to hear a credible answer to my question.
Posted by: Mat at October 18, 2006 12:31 PM (A/DgZ)
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SouthernRoots' comment prompted me to click Anne's
Pretty Girl. It is
definitely worth a look.
Posted by: Redhand at October 18, 2006 12:42 PM (7G9b2)
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Well, the way I linked to to Anne Johnson's site triggered some kind of censorship. I'll simply say that Anne's link is to the gateway to "An Interfaith Sanctuary of EarthReligion." Can't say that I've seen anything quite like it before.
Posted by: Redhand at October 18, 2006 12:51 PM (7G9b2)
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"Wow, the author's credentials are certainly unassailable...Try again brownshirts..."
Iraq Body Count, often criticized for offering inflated civilian death figures, in their Press Release 16 October 2006 thinks the Lancet study is garbage too.
"In the light of such extreme and improbable implications, a rational alternative conclusion to be considered is that the authors have drawn conclusions from unrepresentative data."
Was this a better try, pinkshirts...?
(What is this "brownshirts" crap? Haven't the Hitler allusions been worked to death?)
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/press/pr14.php
Posted by: Major Mike at October 18, 2006 12:54 PM (OhRzl)
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Major Mike, no doubt, would also agree with the broader
assessment of IBC:
Do the American people need to believe that 600,000 Iraqis have been killed before they can turn to their leaders and say "enough is enough"? The number of certain civilian deaths that has been documented to a basic standard of corroboration by "passive surveillance methods" surely already provides all the necessary evidence to deem this invasion and occupation an utter failure at all levels.
Posted by: d at October 18, 2006 01:28 PM (LHK5X)
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Either way, while I supported the war, as it turned out, it isn't going to turn out well. It was a 'bridge to far'.
Posted by: HLT at October 18, 2006 02:10 PM (FlyzA)
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I agree it is sad when innocent people are killed. I think we saved, are saving, and in the future will have saved a lot of innocent lives by fighting in Iraq, and in Afghanistan.
Muslims have killed Muslims and others whether religious or not all over the world in great numbers, regardless of our actions in Iraq. We will stay in Iraq and persevere, and Iraq will be the domino that fell and led to the end of Muslim violence.
Appeasement of violence only leads to uncontrolled violence and greater suffering. Where in recent history has weakness brought lasting peace?
Posted by: Major Mike at October 18, 2006 03:28 PM (OhRzl)
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It is obvious the Lancet study is propaganda, only a fool would not see it. As for credentials, what are Roberts's credentials? He has made no secret of his bias and if this study is an example of his skill I would say he needs to get in a new line of work. It seems that a lot more people are saying this study is bogus than are supporting it, well except for the hopelessly deranged anyway.
It is interesting how certain people on the left can only be concerned with the deaths of Iraqis if and when they think they can use those deaths for some political purpose. We all know that if Saddam was in power he could have wiede half the population off the map without a peep out of these people.
The numbers are simply outrageous. I think that 50,000 dead Iraqis is bad enough in and of itself. I guess some people think otherwise so they created a few hundred thousand more.
Posted by: Terrye at October 18, 2006 05:28 PM (XS1Do)
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A few hundred thousand with an margin of error of plus or minus 600,000. Real Science....LOL
Posted by: Specter at October 19, 2006 06:52 AM (ybfXM)
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Has anyone stopped to think how on the face of it this number is entirely implausible? First, where are the fresh graves? There should be 654,000 individual fresh graves (as opposed to mass graves under Saddam's regime).
Second, the rule of thumb is for every war death there are typically three times the number of wounded. This would mean something like 2 million Iraqis would have flooded hospitals throughout Iraq suffering clear war wounds. Maybe they have, I haven't heard if this is case.
Last. American forces have been in Iraq for a little over 3.5 years. Let's say for the sake of argument (civilians haven't been targetted throughout this entire period so cut me some slack here) that there has been this violence directed at Iraqi civilians for roughly a 1000 days. This would mean there would have to be 655 innocent Iraqi civilians killed EVERY DAY.
If there had been 100 Iraqi civilians killed every day for a thousand days, this would have been splashed as headline news all over the liberal media for those thousand days. This stuff about "secret" killings is just mere sophistry. May as well claim most of the Iraqis are being secretly killed by space aliens for some perverse experiment only known to them.
You liberals know as well as I do, that casualty rates are ALWAYS INFLATED, particularly in Muslim communities who are PR savvy and now aided and abetted by anti-war westerners. And you also know that the average civilian deaths as reported by a media just itching to ratchet up the death rate (even Iraqi hospital records and anectdotal reflections by hospital officials are notoriously unreliable and on the high side) has been somewhere around 25-30 "civilian" deaths a day for the last 18 months. That is roughly around 15,000 deaths. And it is well known that many "civilian casualties" consist of Muslim males in militias or freelancing and are killed by Coaltion forces in gunbattles. Other than the truly innocent women and children caught in between gunfire and IEDs, the radical Muslim male deaths in sectarian violence in Iraq is little different than gangland turf battles here in America ... good riddance.
And there is little doubt the overwhelmingly vast majority of innocent civilian deaths are a result of Muslim on Muslim violence. And blaming this religious sectarian violence on the American presence is like invoking the Great Satan America-made-me-do-it argument - and the devil made me do it argument has never washed with me.
You don't blame doctors for the spread of cancer when they do find cancer and try to treat it.
Posted by: Hankmeister at October 19, 2006 08:32 AM (7lz6g)
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If we leave it to memory, then all we'll have is the newspaper "of record" in the really long term. How many blogs will come and go who diligently exposed the lies and omissions of the NYT, yet what counts in the long term is where someone goes for "the record", and if you carefully deconstruct the NYT articles, the most biased part is in the headlines and the first paragraph, sometimes continuing on in subsequent paragraphs until the end where they sometimes do a 180 degree turn and admit to economic numbers they denied in the first 80% of the article, saying how bad other things are when most other newspapers just report the economic numbers. This is deliberate because the articles are archived in the NYT by title and first paragraph or first two paragraphs from the article so you can decide whether to "purchase" the past news.
So, going back to memory, since I can't find the article, my computer must have went down before I had a chance to archive the article(s) a couple of years ago... during the previous election two years ago, Lancet, from memory, pulled the same stunt. Don't know if it was the same authors, the same school, but Lancet, from memory, was involved. At that time, again, some time before the election, they came out with a study that was repeated in the left wing blogs ad nauseam, where some 100,000 Iraqi civilians had been killed in the first year, or beginning of the war. The 100,000 number was touted on DailyCows, probably Communist Underground, and many, many more left wing and extremist blogs. And they succeeded in getting the fiction into letters to the editor. Except someone experienced in statistics and surveys took a close look at the survey that was performed, and from what I remember it was performed in the same way as this current one, by interviews and unsubstantiated by other methods with one excuse being the "danger" involved in verifying the numbers mostly collected by Iraqis. But the real kicker was that the person who took a look at the number of 100,000 also took a look at the statistical error probability, error rate, whatever its called in statistics. It turns out the model they used would have made 5,000 just as accurate as 100,000, just as accurate as a much higher number, and all they did was take the high number, or the middle number, and claim that that was the correct number. So in the survey two years ago by Lancet on Iraqi deaths because of the war, it would have been just as accurate according to the statistical methodology they used, for them to claim that 5,000 deaths resulted, as it was for them to claim what they really claimed, that 100,000 deaths resulted.
Again, someone, possibly a professor from another school, took a close look at the numbers, methodology, probability, error rate and everything else you look at to see if the survey stands up, and he found that the survey did not stand up unless 5,000 deaths was included as just as possible and just as precise as the 100,000 deaths figure. But this revelation didn't matter. NYT, the left wing blogs, Reuters, AP, AFP, and letters to the editor all ran with the 100,000 deaths number and no one issued a correction, other than the middle of the road and right wing blogs who picked up on the professor's comments.
Maybe someone can find a link to the two year old Lancet study being debunked. I failed to archive the article, and a later exhaustive google search two years ago failed to find the article again. Someone well versed in searching with google may be able to find the old Lancet study and the article debunking it.
Posted by: Jeau L'expose at October 19, 2006 01:08 PM (5hfWV)
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As a matter of fact, I'm quite happy indeed. It's all those lazy summer afternoons at the InterFaith Sanctuary, I guess. Does a body good.
Anne Johnson
B.A. The Johns Hopkins University, 1981
Posted by: gorgeous babe at October 19, 2006 03:18 PM (BvEoi)
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Jl,
I think this article may be referencing the survey of which you were speaking:
THE LANCET STUDY FINDING 100,000 CIVILIAN CASUALTIES: ANOTHER TAKE www.rantingprofs.com/rantingprofs/2004/10/the_lancet_stud.html
It is relative to note that the Iraqi city of Falluja was included in their sample.
Thank you for mentioning this survey. I had forgotten about it. These lancet surveys bring to mind my mom's oft quoted.. "fool me once, shame on you... fool me twice, shame on me... "
Posted by: MOPI at October 19, 2006 06:14 PM (TaAgJ)
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Oh, so if Johns Hopkins is wrong and the Dear Leader and the PNACers have only helped kill, say, 300,000 people, that's something to be proud of? No wonder your party is about to be cast upon the ash heap of history. See you November 7th!
Posted by: blogenfreude at October 22, 2006 06:05 PM (lCFxJ)
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Whatever the number of Iraqis slaughtered by Bush and his neo-con warmongers, it is a tragedy unprecedented in the history of our once free and great republic.
Posted by: jose at October 24, 2006 05:55 PM (L4N8t)
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October 17, 2006
No. Korea: ''A Declaration of War''
Captain Poofy is starting to sound like a great proponent of regime change, primarily
his own:
Blaming the United States for instigating U.N. Security Council sanctions against it, North Korea on Tuesday called the resolution approved over the weekend a "declaration of war."
North Korea's Foreign Ministry said in a statement carried by the official Korean Central News Agency that the country wants "peace but is not afraid of war."
The North "vehemently denounces the resolution, a product of the U.S. hostile policy toward (the North) and totally refutes it," the statement said, according to a report from The Associated Press.
North Korea's statement followed U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice calling the U.N. resolution a "clear message" that Pyongyang must "make a new set of calculations" about its nuclear endeavors.
"North Korea cannot endanger the world and then expect other nations to conduct business as usual in arms or missile parts," Rice told reporters on Monday. "It cannot destabilize the international system and then expect to exploit elaborate financial networks built for peaceful commerce."
As some have mentioned previously, the nuclear gambit is North Korea's last straw. They have nothing else with which to threaten the world. Their nuclear threats fall short with missiles that won't fly and nuclear weapons that won't detonate, and their massive conventional army is decades obsolete. All the have left is their arms business, and the U.N. blockade is taking that away.
At the current rate of escalation, I would not be all that surprised to find North Korea may very well be considering a disasterous invasion of South Korea if a pending second nuke test fails. They had so little to begin with, that they have almost nothing else to lose.
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You just gotta hope that he doesn't now suffer DTs, flop around, see attacking American troops in his delirium, and push some apocalyptic buttons.
But seriously, I think it's time to tell the ChiComs in NO uncertain terms that America will have to nuclear arm Japan and Taiwan to stave off the articulated clear and present danger. China has thus far been getting a pass when they could have ended ill Kim's madness LONG ago were it not for their favoring all things anti-American.
~(Ä)~
Posted by: Rocketman ~(Ä)~ at October 18, 2006 09:09 AM (NlvMC)
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October 16, 2006
Left-Wing Lawyer to be Sentenced For Aiding Terrorism
Lynne Stewart, the radical liberal lawyer convicted of providing material support for terrorism, faces being sentenced for
up to 30 years today. Her defense team's strategy?
She and her allies are pinning their hopes for leniency on a strategy that argues she became so emotionally involved in the sheik's case that she acted irrationally — a strategy that is underpinned by a sealed letter to the court from a psychiatrist.
A psychiatric report submitted to the federal judge in Manhattan who will decide the sentence, John Koeltl, claims that several emotional events in Stewart's life suggest her actions were motivated by "human factors of her client and his situation" and not by politics, according to portions of the psychiatric report.
The psychiatrist, Steven Teich, points to 11 emotional events that he claims prompted her to want to take action on Abdel Rahman's behalf, Stewart's attorneys say. Among the events that make Dr.Teich's list are her experiences seeing Abdel Rahman incarcerated and the 1995 suicide of a drug defendant named Dominick Maldonado, whom Stewart had once represented.
"Ms. Stewart's commitment to the protection of her client, the Sheik, in prison was magnified by emotions from her perceived failure to protect her former client Mr. Maldonado, which had, consequently, resulted in his death by suicide," Mr. Teich wrote.
While the evaluation by Dr. Teich is filed under seal, Stewart's attorneys quote portions of it at length in public legal papers.
Stewart's behavior was "emotionally based and sometimes impulsive" and her mental state while representing Abdel Rahman "immobilized her critical ability to evaluate the potential consequences of her actions," according to the psychiatric report.
In other words, they are claiming that Stewart became a traitor to her country because she let her perceived failures and emotions get the better of her, not because she was inherently or willfully disloyal.
Somehow, that defense sounds familiar... where have I heard it before?
This "emotionally-based and sometimes impulsive" behavior did not start in 2000 or in September 11, 2001, in October of 2001, or March of 2003. It is instead a inherent structural flaw in a group of people going back decades.
Once upon a time liberals were classic liberals, pulling for individual rights, equal opportunity, freedom, and peace. I didn't agree with the methods they espoused towards realizing their ideals, but I could at least respect their ideals, if not their plans for implementation.
Somewhere, however, liberals began to lose their liberalism and thirst for universal freedoms. As Dr. Sanity noted, they traded their ideals for ideology, and have now reached a point where:
...every issue supported by the Left, and almost all of the behavior exhibited by the Left is completely antithetical to classical liberal philosophies. There is no longer a commitment to personal liberty or to freedom. The Left is far too busy to promote freedom for the common man or woman, because their time is taken up advocating freedom for tyrants who oppress the common man; terrorists who kill the common man; and religious fanatics who subjugate the common woman.
The intellectuals who once promoted the IDEA of freedom, now are ensnared in an IDEOLOGY that depends for its very existence on the silencing of speech; the suppression of ideas; and the persecution of those who dare to refute its tenets.
Patriotism and love of one’s country is mocked by those who once fought to bring the American Dream to all American citizens; and who once championed those who were prevented from sharing in that Dream. Slowly and inexorably those idealists who once shouted, “we shall overcome,” morphed into a toxic culture promoting a never-ending victimhood that cannot possibly be overcome. Love of American ideals and values was transformed into the most perverse and vile anti-Americanism –where all things originating or “tainted” as American are uniquely bad; and where America became the source of all evil in the world.
This is the worldview that seems to have ensnared Lynne Stewart, and forms the basis for her defense as she is about to be sentenced for aiding and abetting terrorism. "I didn't mean to become a traitor," seems to be her cry, "my emotions made me do it." It seems beyond her that emotions led her to support those who would take away everything that she professed to support in a lifetime of liberal activism.
Liberals are not liberal anymore, and have not been for decades.
Many no longer even choose to identify themselves as such, perhaps subconsciously acknowledging that as they brand themselves as "progressives," without even realizing what they are progressing towards; Statism, the destruction of free speech, the crushing of dissent, the willful abandonment of a platform that once declared all should have equal rights to life liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Their new platform is something else entirely.
Progressives donÂ’t want peace; they just don't support our going to war.
They push to surrender in Iraq and Afghanistan—or as the style it, "redeploy"—because they claim that the cost of American lives is too high. The are ashamed to address what occurred when they were able to convince us to withdraw from Somalia and Vietnam. They perhaps saved tens of thousands of American soldier's lives by forcing politically-motivated withdrawals, but at what cost?
Millions died in Southeast Asia as a result of a successful anti-war movement in the United States forcing us to retreat, and the Murtha-led retreat from Somalia inspired Osama bin Laden to the African embassy bombings, the attack on the USS Cole, and eventually 9/11/01.
Progressives still claim to support individual freedoms and feminism and equality, but shamefully propose to abandon two fledgling nations struggling to find democracy to Islamists that subjugate people for being of a different ethnic group, or religion, or race, or gender.
How is this surrender to oppression in any way in confluence with the classical concept of liberalism? Put bluntly, it is not.
Liberalism, or at least those who today claim to be liberal and progressive, has become the refuge of back-biting isolationists that long ago gave up any pretense of finding freedom and equality concepts worth fighting for in favor of a morally bankrupt ideology blindly seeking power and relevance at any cost. Once more, those that claim to be liberals urge us to turn our backs on the ideals that made American great.
Justice. Honor. Freedom. Equality.
These noble concepts are snorted at with derision by an American Left today that in no way shares the ideals of those who came before. No one truly interested in human rights and justice and equality could abandon Iraq to insurgent Islamists and elements of al Qaeda advocating sharia law, nor abandoning Afghanistan to a brutal Taliban that subjugates women and murders homosexuals and others who deemed unworthy under brutal and primitive Sharia law. These "liberals" would condemn more than 50 million people to oppression because the price we've paid thus far is too much for their tender sensibilities.
Lynne Stewart braces for sentencing today as one liberal that long ago abandoned her stated principles in favor of an ideology most un-American. Thousands more just like her view her impending incarceration as a travesty of justice, without understanding that it is instead their beliefs that run counter to every ideal this nation holds dear. Ironically, they think they are the voices of freedom and reason.
Freedom is not earned by submission. Cowardice does not buy liberty. Retreat does not win equality.
Somehow, so called liberals lost sight of those basic facts long ago.
Update: I said "cowardice does not buy liberty"... but convicted felon and liberal moneyman George Soros came damn close. Soros funded a significant portion of Stewart's legal defense.
Stewart was sentenced today to to a whopping 28 months in prison. Her paralegal Ahmed Sattar got 24 years for conspiracy to kidnap and kill those in a foreign country.
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Justice. Honor. Freedom. Equality.
These noble concepts are snorted at with derision by an American Left today that in no way shares the ideals of those who came before.
Abu Ghraib. Waterboarding. Stress positions.
Keep preaching to us about the moral superiority of the American Right...
Posted by: Phoenician in a time of Romans at October 16, 2006 04:32 PM (iYlrE)
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Phoenician,
Waterboarding vs Beheading... you can argue about the wrongs of individuals all you want but in the end you have to choose sides. I think it is a great testament to this nation that our citizens will not stand for relatively minor(considering the historical and international record on torture) mistakes by our side. at the same time, it is mind boggling how people can some how come to the conclusion that these occurrances not only make us equally evil as our enemy, but worthy of losing the war at the cost of millions of innocents here and abroad.
Wars do not end without a victor; regardless of our indiscretions, to deny that we must win this war is at best naive and stupid, at worst it is treasonous and fascistic.
Posted by: K-Det at October 16, 2006 07:08 PM (aaP7C)
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Still trying to pin the slaughter in Cambodia on America's withdrawl from Vietnam?
Hard to square with the fact that the Vietnemese are the ones who put a stop to the "killing fields."
Posted by: monkyboy at October 16, 2006 07:45 PM (unUeA)
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Pleeeeaaaassee tell me that wasn't a reference to "waterboards" and "stress positions" as some sort of heinous atrocity. You can do better than that. being waterboarded sucks, but it's probably got long term effects similar to being tickle-tortured for an hour.
when i was at SERE school, some of the guys in the class wanted to see what being water boarded was like, so they resisted past all reason and the instructors obliged them. to a man, and we're talking about marine officers and a SEAL, they said that after being water boarded they told the instructors anything they wanted to hear because it freaked them out.
were they sitting in the fetal position in class? no. having had it done on them, they recognized how effective it was because it's such a powerful tool. is there a risk of death? no. you just think you're going to drown, but you wont. are the terrorists probably pissed off and crying torture because they completely freaked out and spilled the beans? wouldn't surprise me.
Open question: Have any journalists volunteered to be water boarded to see what it's like? It might sound ridiculous but..why not?
Anyway, this woman is claiming to be a slave to her emotional impulses, and her occasional whackjob sessions make her a threat to those around her. She ought to be treated as such, and be placed in a mental institution so that she doesn't accidentally get emotionally involved with terrorists and whatnot. It's for her own safety.
Posted by: paully at October 16, 2006 09:00 PM (yJuX3)
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Waterboarding vs Beheading...
A difference in degree, rather than kind.
you can argue about the wrongs of individuals all you want but in the end you have to choose sides.
Very good - I choose the side of civilization rather than barbarity. Your country has degenerated to resemble the thing it claims to struggle against.
I take pride in being able to state that
my country does not torture people. Any thinking American would be deeply humiliated by the fact that they cannot say the same.
Justice. Honor. Freedom. Equality - remember?
Posted by: Phoenician in a time of Romans at October 16, 2006 10:57 PM (iYlrE)
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Freedom is not earned by submission
It was for the Confederacy...or at least for the Confederacy's former slaves.
Posted by: Hed at October 16, 2006 11:53 PM (ZS4Cu)
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Freedom is not earned by submission. Cowardice does not buy liberty.
Does this mean that you believe those Iraqis attempting to kill the American invaders occupying their country are right to do so?
Posted by: Phoenician in a time of Romans at October 17, 2006 12:03 AM (iYlrE)
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Put your hand on the phone-ah, dial the number, see that your free to be carrying on-ah, when your gone-ah...
Posted by: Pinko Punko at October 17, 2006 12:46 AM (6F6lT)
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What country are you from? Pamphletpropagandastan? Those little snipings are pretty tired. Why not bring in your experiences from your utopic country, which you mentioned is free of any oppression, and throw around some original ideas?
Posted by: paully at October 17, 2006 01:00 AM (yJuX3)
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Paully:
Phoenician wanders into blogs spewing all over the place until it finally pisses off the blog owner and gets banned, in which case it finds a new one.
Looks like Confederate Yankee's the next lucky host.
Posted by: Patrick Chester at October 17, 2006 03:21 AM (MKaa5)
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PiatoR is one of Goldstein's old trolls from PW, it just took me a while to recognize the handle. He's gone.
Not that it matters, but he is from New Zealand, a country rich in hobbits and hairy fruits.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 17, 2006 06:31 AM (BTdrY)
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Go Braveheart Bob!
Ban everyone who disagrees with you. Way to show that Kiwi who's boss of this little house of cards!
Posted by: Lint at October 17, 2006 08:07 AM (lf6+g)
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you cant spell "banality" without "ban".
Posted by: paully at October 17, 2006 08:29 AM (gLHFl)
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Hard to square with the fact that the Vietnemese are the ones who put a stop to the "killing fields."
I would suggest you read Chandlers's
Brother Number One
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 17, 2006 10:06 AM (k5pDn)
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Well, paully, it may have something to do with the fact that we prosecuted Japanese soldiers for waterboarding. War crime in 1945, but really effective interrogation technique now? As a graduate of a SERE course myself, I am constantly amused by the comparison if its use on highly trained troops in a known training environment, with its use on civilian prisoners under our control who have no recourse.
Followed only by the first class cognitive dissonance that you don't have to prove a single one is guilty before you use a war crime to extract information. The irrational rationalization being, I suppose, its not really that big a deal, so if they're innocent, no harm done. It takes a special kind of crazy to fit that in your head, and then advocate having it written into your "law".
Posted by: Officious Pedant at October 17, 2006 12:13 PM (688sS)
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I want the three minutes of my life back that I spent reading this.
So "liberal" is o.k., but the liberals have forgotten what that means? Yes CY, it is the left that is pushing to destroy free speech and squelch dissent. Damn man, what color is the sky in your world?
Posted by: T.S. Garp at October 17, 2006 03:55 PM (pSZ41)
Posted by: AJB at October 18, 2006 07:36 AM (C8fuN)
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...every issue supported by the Left, and almost all of the behavior exhibited by the Left is completely antithetical to classical liberal philosophies. There is no longer a commitment to personal liberty or to freedom.
Hm. I support Habeas Corpus. Apparently this makes me a fascist?
Bye bye, Republicans. It has been unpleasant dealing with you.
Posted by: brooksfoe at October 18, 2006 10:27 AM (OVjfO)
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October 13, 2006
Guards: I Can't Gitmo Satisfaction
If some of the stories told to Sgt. Heather Cerveny by guards at Guantanamo Bay are true, I hope the offenders are appropriately punished, but parts of CervenyÂ’s affidavit are
simply sad:
During my conversations with these people, one Sailor who called himself Bo (rank and last name unknown) told the group stories involving detainees. Bo was 19 years old and had been working at Guantanamo Bay for almost one year. He was about 5”10” and 180 pounds. He was Caucasian, with blond hair and blue eyes. Bo told the other guards and me about him beating different detainees being help in the prison. One such story Bo told involved him taking a detainee by the head and hitting the detainee’s head into the cell door. Bo said that his actions wee known to others. I asked him if he had been charged with an offense for beating and abusing this detainee. He told me nothing happened to him. He received neither nonjudicial punishment or court-martial. And he never even received formal counseling. He was eventually moved to the maintenance section but this did not occur until some time after the incident where he slammed the detainee’s head into the cell door.
Detainee abuse is a bad thing, but Sgt. HeatherÂ’s apparent incredulity that Bo didnÂ’t even get counseling makes me either want to laugh or cryÂ… I havenÂ’t decided which yet.
It is worth noting that this and all the other admissions came as a lonely, undoubtedly horny sailors were trying to impress a girl in a bar. Pardon me if I hold out hope that his apparent attempt to be “bar tough” is just one more lie to join the hundreds of millions told in a fruitless attempt to impress women.
What Sgt. Heather also seems to consider abuse outside of several claims of hitting detainees, however, is well, questionable.
I recall speaking with a guard named Steven. Steven was a Caucasian male, about 5”8”, 170 pounds, with brown hair and brown eyes. He stated that he used to work in Camp 5 but he now works in Camp 6. He works on one of the “blocks” as a guard. He told me that even when a detainee is being good, they will take his personal items away. He said that they do this to anger the detainees so that they can punish them when they object or complain. I asked Steven why he treats detainees this way. He said it is because he hates the detainees and that they are bad people. And he stated that he doesn’t like having to take care of them or be nice to them. Steven also added that his “only job was to keep the detainees alive.” I understood this to mean that as long as the detainees were kept alive, he didn’t care what happened to them.
I bet Sgt. Heather is probably a very nice person, kind to old people and animals, and is probably just the girl youÂ’d like to take home to meet dear old Mom and Dad, but would someone please explain to her what holy Hell these people are in prison for?
They are Islamic terrorists who want nothing more than to see Americans dead. These same inmates have a long record of flinging various bodily liquids at guards, assaulting them with homemade weapons, and generally not being nice people. God forbid that Steven doesnÂ’t like them and occasionally confiscates the personal effects from an inmate that once forced him to remove a uniform covered in , urine, feces, spit, or semen, or who once tried to cut him with a shiv.
And God forbid, sheÂ’s upset that they might not be getting their mail in a timely manner:
I asked Shawn why it often takes 6 months of so for them to get their mail. Shawn replied that there is often a delay because the mailroom personnel have to look through everything and get it translated prior to the mail being forwarded to detainees. I then asked why it would possibly still take six months if the mail matter was printed in English. Shawn said there wouldnÂ’t really be a reason and it was not uncommon for them to withhold the mail of detainees until they, the mailroom clerks, decided to forward the mail.
Prisoner abuse—hitting and punching them without prevarication or just cause—is patently wrong. But Sgt. Heather seems to be under the delusion that Marines and sailors have a duty to be nice and go out of their way to provide prompt, courteous, and friendly service to terrorists, as if Guantanamo Bay was a resort. Someone needs to write this little Marine paralegal a reality check.
Of course, Brian Ross sees this as a major scandal. I guess Foleygate must not be having the desired effect.
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Should the guards have been nice to the innocents who have since been released from Guantanamo?
Posted by: monkyboy at October 13, 2006 04:05 PM (unUeA)
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I watch Fox news frequently and read political blogs just to see how crazy the "other" side is....and often wonder if it were twenty years or thirty years earlier, I'd be seeing journalist defending torcher. How sad we have lowered ourselves.
I find myself watching the morning Fox and Friends, just so I can look up a girl's crotch and watch some pro-wrestling level debate, a cheap thrill if you will.
Would Walter Cronkite be a part of this crap? Not.
Reaching CY....Reaching.......(shaking my head and smiling)
Posted by: Johnny at October 13, 2006 06:23 PM (jmvhP)
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What you have is a young girl looking for attention so she took some bar room bragging and turned it into a story. If things work out she will have a nice two/three year vacation break at the brig in Ks. Lying in sworn statements will get you free transport and everything.
Posted by: Scrapiron at October 13, 2006 08:37 PM (fEnUg)
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What's so sad about the fact that he didn't get counseled? Oh, I forgot, you're a chickenhawk who doesnt know the first thing about soldiering. A counseling statement is the precursor to a punishment. You must be counseled by your superiors prior to a punishment as either a warning or a notification that you are facing an Article 15.
Good belittling of a female sergeant, too. You're an asshole.
Posted by: Ron at October 14, 2006 12:07 AM (BgCsf)
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CY:
When I think of the detainees in Guantanamo, I'm put in mind of those who were held in Abu Ghraib--not because of the torture allegations, although that does cross my mind. I'm thinking of the hundreds of innocents who were let out in mass releases after the Abu Ghraib abuses were publicized. These dudes, apparently, had done nothing; they'd been in the wrong place at the wrong time, or they'd been turned in for a bounty or whatever.
How many of those held in Guantanamo are in the same boat? Even if it is, as the Right calls it, "Club Gitmo," these dudes are being held with no hope of release ever, and it's possible that they are not, in fact, "enemy combatants" or whatever other term the Administration wants to make up to describe them.
Are we to believe the Administration's claim that they are all bad guys? Why? Because of their impeccable track record for honesty and thoroughness in these situations? That brings us full circle back to Abu Ghraib. Some of those guys were bad, but many were merely hapless.
The whole thing bothers me. I want to keep the bad guys behind bars, but I want to see the innocents go home. I'd rather not see anyone tortured, and let's start with the guys we have in custody. It's safe to say that none of them are the proverbial "ticking time bombs."
Posted by: Doc Washboard at October 14, 2006 09:02 AM (6+rMK)
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Enough of the Chicken hawk BS, Ron. Following typical chickenhawk logic then only the 700000 people, the number of soldiers that have gone through RFI, are allowed to have an opinion on Iraq. Its a stupid argument and the reason democrats were stuck with the dud Kerry...he supposedly had 'gotcha' points on Bush's service.
I was a First Sergeant on Abu Ghraib. The detainee population consisted of criminals, terrorists, people that were in the wrong place, people faking it for US medical care, and witnesses. That's right, witnesses. Its Legal under Iraqi law to detain witnesses to keep them from disappearing.
Next, they are called detainees because they haven't been proven guilty yet and are awaiting trial. They had satellite TV, plasma screens, surround sound, plenty of food, and excellent medical care. Tough life.
Had anyone committed those offenses we would have gone straight past counseling statements and to legal punishment. I have a good friend that was a guard at Gitmo and he indicates that nothing like that happened while he was there...not even after a poop throwing incident.
Thats my two cents. If you have never been to Abu or Gitmo, you are not allowed to have an opinion on what happens there, according to Ron.
Posted by: y7 at October 14, 2006 11:06 AM (I1rXq)
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Gitmo has got to be the most watched, talked about, investigated prison in the world. What about the thousands and thousands of people languishing in prisons in places like Yemen, does anyone ever even think about them? Is their fate of no import?
Posted by: Terrye at October 18, 2006 06:18 AM (4XoCB)
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Number Crunched
Thank you,
Asymmetrical Information commenter
Yancey Ward:
If there have been 650,000 excess deaths, and my understanding is that violence is the predominate cause of this excess, then I wonder about the ratio of wounded to dead. From my reading of history, in war there is about a 3 to 1 or greater ratio of wounded to dead in combat. If we take the study seriously, then we should also have well over 1.5 million wounded. Has anyone checked this out?
According to the Lancet’s disputed study, 601,027 people—al Qaeda terrorists, insurgents, Iraqi soldiers, police, and true civilians—have been killed violently ("the most common cause being gunfire," says the summary) since the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
We also know that for every combat-related death, there are usually a far greater number of casualties. As Donald Sensing notes in a 2004 post to his blog, the United States sustained a ratio of wounded to killed of 2.3:1 in World War II, 3.28:1 in Vietnam, and 9.5:1 in the current Iraq war (a more current Newsday article from last week puts that figure at roughly 8:1).
The numbers look the way they do largely because of the advances made in medical and defensive technologies since the World War II and Vietnam era. U.S. soldiers that sustain wounds today will often survive what would have been killing wounds of 40 to 60 years ago, and they often won't sustain wounds where they might have in prior wars because of advances in vehicle and personnel armor.
Iraqi civilians do not wear body armor and as a rule neither do most insurgents or al Qaeda terrorists (though there are exceptions to that rule as well). Many Iraqi police and Army units do have body armor, as well as some lightly armored vehicles. While it is a simple SWAG, it would probably not be unreasonable to suspect that medical technologies available to the average Iraqi are probably not any worse than what our soldiers faced in World War Two, and may be better and approaching or exceeding Vietnam-era levels in some urban areas.
It is far from valid science (I, at least, admit it), but one might assume that a wounded to killed ratios of all Iraqis probably fits within the 2.3:1 and 3.28:1 figures of these prior wars, and a slightly higher number afforded by modern medical methods used in Iraqi civilian hospitals.
If we can therefore make that assumption (and I'm not entirely sure that we can, but I'm going to in an endeavor to prove a point) that the Lancet accurately states that 601,027 Iraqis have been killed violently since 2003, then there would logically be a minimum of 1,382,363-1,971,369 Iraqis wounded by violence (using the WWII and Vietnam ratios). If the ratio of wounded surviving is better than that, then there should be in excess of 2 million wounded Iraqis in addition to those killed by violence, or a grand total of 1,983,390-2,572,396 Iraqi civilians that have either killed or wounded since 2003.
The CIA World Factbook estimates the population of Iraq at 26,783,383 as of July.
Does the Lancet really want to stand behind a study that seems to suggest almost a tenth of Iraq's population has been killed or wounded in the past 3 years, and the world somehow overlooked it?
Funny think, statistics.
Update: In a post titled, Reality checks: some responses to the latest Lancet estimates, the staff of IraqBodyCount.org accuses the Lancet of over-inflating the civilian body count in Iraq.
Interestingly enough, IBC asked where the wounded are, how the media could have overlooked such carnage, how the Iraqi government could have participated in such a cover-up, and where the death certificates are.
If those questions sound familiar, it's because you've been reading this blog.
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So if I read you correctly, you're taking battlefield statistics from two 20th century wars, applying the ratio of wounded to dead
soldiers to the latest estimates of
overall mortality figures for Iraqis, and concluding yet again that one of the most prestigious medical journals in the world is off its nut -- all because of the inspiring words of a commenter named "Yancey Ward."
These marijuana cigarettes you're smoking -- where can I get some?
Posted by: d at October 13, 2006 04:08 PM (LHK5X)
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d - instead of being snarky, why don't you use your self-proclaimed intellectual superiority and address the subject of the wounded?
If there has been a excess of 650,000 deaths - caused by violence - then isn't it likely that there has been an excess of wounded? If fighting occurs in populated areas, then isn't it reasonable to expect a higher proportion of wounded among the civilian population?
Or are we to surmise that the coalition's plan is to leave no witnesses, therefore most casualties would be deaths, rather than wounded?
Enlighten us.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at October 13, 2006 04:45 PM (jHBWL)
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It keeps getting better with you folks. It's amazing.
First, the proprietor of this blog makes a stream of facially absurd remarks that indicate a basic misunderstanding of statistics, public health research, the academic peer review process, and any number of other related issues; he and his commenters (including you) go out of your way to mis-read the article under consideration, claiming that it argues something that it does not; and then, after it's pointed out over and over again (try
here for starters) that criticism of the
Lancet study is almost universally ignorant, CY (and now you) derive renewed inspiration from a commenter named "Yancey Ward" and promtly begin howling about a pile of utterly irrelevant, phantasmic statistics about wounded Iraqis.
There's no possible way to enlighten you. It's quite dark in there, I'm afraid to say.
Posted by: d at October 13, 2006 05:37 PM (LHK5X)
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In other words, we have absolutely no right to be astounded and skeptical of a death rate that is significantly higher (10x-13x) than what has been reported over the last 4 years?
We have no right to question the accuracy of the report?
We have no right to question the political motives of the authors of the report?
We have no right to ask for more than a statistical extrapolation as proof of the veracity of the report?
We must bow down and pledge unquestioning obedience to all (the right) scientists for they are pure, infallable, and apolitical?
Well, I am performing my patriotic duty by dissenting with your point of view.
The link you gave said (paraphrased) "Pay no attention the the really big number - it doesn't matter. What matters is that we have scientifically proven, beyond a shadow of any doubt, that Iraq is extremely more worse off since the start of the war than they were before the war started."
Until corroborated by other sources, I will remain skeptical.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at October 13, 2006 07:27 PM (jHBWL)
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I'm still waiting for Al-Jazeera to show the pics of these 600,000 graves. I won't be holding my breath, becasue if AJ can't can't find'em, nobody can.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 13, 2006 07:32 PM (uLMbH)
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Another example of a professor sucking more people into some fantasy so he can get attention. Like a spoiled brat they don't care what kind of attention just so it's attention. This bunch is so full of bull a kindergarden student would smell it out.
Posted by: Scrapiron at October 13, 2006 08:40 PM (fEnUg)
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I have not read the study, and really do not intend to. But if more Iraqis died of US activity in a couple of years than Germans during four years of bombing not only factories but "population centers" (Berlin, Hamburg, Dresden and others) would not there be more than one study showing it?
Perhaps the statistical analysis of reported (to the studiers) deaths is good: can the same be said of their sampling methods? For example, asking interviewees to spread the word that they want to hear about deaths by violence, is it not likely that only people who had such deaths to report would then show up on succeeding days? Extrapolating from such a self-selected base would surely be akin to interviewing only people who claim success on the grapefruit diet and extrapolating that it must work...
Posted by: Tequila Jack at October 13, 2006 09:39 PM (oHkbn)
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Tequila Jack: I appreciate your willingness to publicly state your determination to know absolutely nothing about this study.
Scrapiron: You're absolutely right. I have no interest in this question except to draw people into some kind of "fantasy," and I am so desperate for attention that I can only receive it from people who denounce public health research they have publicly announced their refusal to read. Remarkable.
Southern Roots: I don't particularly give a squirt if you "question authority" or not. I'd remind you, though, that intelligent questions will always get you farther in life than the ones you knuckleheads are asking about the
Lancet study.
Let me put this whole issue another way. Rather than focus on the estimated figure of 655,000 dead, I'd like someone -- why don't we start with you, Southern Roots? -- to explain to me why we should find it so implausible that the Iraqi mortality rate should rise from 5.5 per capita to 13.3 per capita over the course of three and a half years of warfare and insurgency, sectarian violence, infrastructural corrosion, massive unemployment, and degraded access to medical care throughout much of the country. The 655,000 figure you find so grotesquely overstated is actually derived from that spike in mortality.
I'm keen to hear your theories on this one.
Posted by: d at October 14, 2006 12:02 AM (LHK5X)
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d - We are having a very fine dance here. You are asked questions and you refuse to really answer them except to belittle and then fall back on the "read the report, believe the report, you no nothing of statistical analysis" theme.
In order to have an increase from 5.5 to 13.5, you are required to have over 600,000 more deaths than "normal" in a three year period.
There is no getting around that number. I find it very difficult to believe that it goes unnoticed and unreported.
If the death rate due to violence increases significantly, then there should be a corresponding increase in wounded. You have thus far refused to acknowledge this, let alone discuss it.
I also don't think anyone here has been arguing that there haven't been increase in civilian casualties due to the war, what we are disputing is the magnitude. Do you honestly believe that, if the casualties are as high as the Lancet report claims, that all those groups that detest and hate Bush (and America) are just sitting on their hands and not finding some way to use this information against Bush? How realistic is that?
When actions do not correspond the presumptions of statistical studies, I do get cynical about the theoretical side. And I don't "give a squirt" if that puts your panties in a bunch.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at October 14, 2006 01:07 AM (jHBWL)
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If the death rate due to violence increases significantly, then there should be a corresponding increase in wounded. You have thus far refused to acknowledge this, let alone discuss it.Alright, let's have a go with this.
No-one knows how many people have been wounded in Iraq over the last three years. You don't know, I don't know, The Lancet doesn't know, and George Bush doesn't know. There has never been a comprehensive study of this.
If the Lancet had tried to do the same survey of injuries as they did for deaths, the numbers would be practically useless. With a death, you're either living or dead, true or false, there's no middle ground. It's an easy thing to count because it doesn't rely on someone's interpretation. There's even official certificates. But for injuries, you'd need to send doctors out to assess every wound, which obviously isn't practical. Many of these people don't have access to medical care at all, so if you've got a few thousand doctors spare who are happy to be sent into dangerous territory, they really should be used to make people better, rather than collate statistics.
The comparison to war statistics is, as d says, a non sequitur. I think a lot of you are missing the point here: this number of 655,000 is
not measuring war dead. That is, it is not measuring people who died in pitched battles. It is measuring excess deaths due to many causes, including sickness and accidents. It is measuring the number of extra dead people Iraq has as a result of the war, not the number of people killed directly in the war itself. Historically, it's perfectly normal for there to be a big difference between these two numbers.
As to how many people I think were wounded, I can only speculate. I might say that many of the dead bodies that have been turning up show signs of torture. That is, they weren't gunned down in a pitched battle, but abducted, tortured, and killed. If someone wants to do that to you, you either escape, or you're dead. There's no way to get injured. If that effect was statistically significant, it might produce a death/injury ratio higher than pitched battles would. But I should emphasise that that's just speculation: I have no idea what the injury rates should look like.
So we have no idea how many people we should expect to have been injured given 655,000 excess deaths, and we have no idea how many people were in fact injured. You are taking two numbers you know nothing about and concluding that one is less than the other. It's not very convincing.
Posted by: Mat at October 14, 2006 03:34 AM (2yVWt)
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To follow up on Mat's point in the last two paragraphs, I just typed "Iraq" into Google News. The top two headlines were:
Decapitated corpses found in Iraq
8 Females, 2 Teenagers Kidnapped In Iraq
I haven't done a scientific study that shows that the dead-to-wounded ration from decapitation and kidnap-murder is higher than the dead-to-wounded ratio of WWII-style combat, but it seems like a plausible hypothesis. (That is to say, freaking obvious.)
A couple of other points:
would not there be more than one study showing it?
Well, there was another study a couple of years ago. But these studies are very difficult to carry out -- they involve going around Iraq and interviewing families in large numbers, and Iraq is a dangerous place to do it. So no one else has actually attempted this kind of study, as far as I know.
I'm still waiting for Al-Jazeera to show the pics of these 600,000 graves.
There are some interesting articles lately about people fishing bodies out of the Tigris.
Posted by: Matt Weiner at October 14, 2006 08:47 AM (Mnkma)
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Rather than focus on the estimated figure of 655,000 dead...
Yes, lets ignore a patently absurd claim so we can bash others. Yea, that's the ticket.
Sorry jaggoff, the claim is so absurd its not even worth considering in serious company. Save this shit for you truther buddies who might listen.
You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure this out, you just need to watch rabidly biased sources like Al-Jazzera to know its bogus.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 15, 2006 11:31 AM (uLMbH)
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Where did they grow you guys? I think I know what they used for fertilizer.
Posted by: Pinko Punko at October 16, 2006 01:33 PM (6F6lT)
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The staff of Iraq Body Count has now issued a press release accuses the Lancet of over-inflating the civilian body count in Iraq.
See the update to this post.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 16, 2006 03:25 PM (g5Nba)
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If there has been a excess of 650,000 deaths - caused by violence - then isn't it likely that there has been an excess of wounded?
Not particularly. Very few people who are kidnapped with the intent of being tortured to death and dumped as an object lesson to others wind up wounded instead of dead. Since deaths from violence would tend to involve victims rather than soldiers, I'd expect a far higher dead-to-wounded ratio.
In other words, we have absolutely no right to be astounded and skeptical of a death rate that is significantly higher (10x-13x) than what has been reported over the last 4 years?
From an interview with one of the authors (to which, strangely enough, this blog won't allow a link):
"We have gone and looked at every recent war we can find, and only in Bosnia did all governmental statistics add up to even one-fifth of the true death toll. And in Bosnia, the rate was 30 or 40 percent, with huge support for surveillance activities from the UN. So itÂ’s normal in times of war that communications systems break down, systems for registering events break down.
And in SaddamÂ’s last year of his reign, only about one-third of all deaths were captured at morgues and hospitals through the official government surveillance network. So, when things were good, if only a third of deaths were captured, what do you think itÂ’s like now?"
You were saying?
Perhaps the statistical analysis of reported (to the studiers) deaths is good: can the same be said of their sampling methods? For example, asking interviewees to spread the word that they want to hear about deaths by violence, is it not likely that only people who had such deaths to report would then show up on succeeding days?
"And then, once we had picked that we were going to visit two or three neighborhoods in a certain governance or province, we would then make a list of all the villages and towns and cities, and again randomly pick one of those to visit, so that big places had a larger chance of being visited than smaller places. And then, finally,
when we got down to the village level or to the section of a city, we would pick a house at random, visit it and the other 39 houses closest to it to grab a cluster of 40 houses."
You were saying?
Posted by: Phoenician in a time of Romans at October 16, 2006 04:42 PM (iYlrE)
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Summary
Iraqi Body Count Press Release
October 16, 2006
"In the light of such extreme and improbable implications, a rational alternative conclusion to be considered is that the authors have drawn conclusions from unrepresentative data. In addition, totals of the magnitude generated by this study are unnecessary to brand the invasion and occupation of Iraq a human and strategic tragedy."
http://tinyurl.com/yd5o2j
Posted by: Bluangel at October 16, 2006 08:43 PM (T1cju)
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In the light of such extreme and improbable implications, a rational alternative conclusion to be considered is that the authors have drawn conclusions from unrepresentative data.
Ooops -
Appeal to Consequences of a Belief.
One notices that the IBC hasn't said anything about the statistical basis of the study, of which all informed experts have said is fairly robust. One also notes that the authors have addressed some of the points made, noting, for example:
"We have gone and looked at every recent war we can find, and only in Bosnia did all governmental statistics add up to even one-fifth of the true death toll. And in Bosnia, the rate was 30 or 40 percent, with huge support for surveillance activities from the UN. So itÂ’s normal in times of war that communications systems break down, systems for registering events break down."
"And in SaddamÂ’s last year of his reign, only about one-third of all deaths were captured at morgues and hospitals through the official government surveillance network. So, when things were good, if only a third of deaths were captured, what do you think itÂ’s like now?"
So the IBC criticism is not only off focus, it is based on false assumptions.
Try again.
Posted by: Phoenician in a time of Romans at October 16, 2006 11:06 PM (iYlrE)
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of which all informed experts have said is fairly robust.
Where have we heard the "all experts concur" line before?
Donald Berry, chairman of biostatistics at M. D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, was even more troubled by the study, which he said had “a tone of accuracy that’s just inappropriate.”
http://medpundit.blogspot.com/2006/10/lancet-strikes-again-i-admit-this.html
According to official reports , over 180,000 internally displaced refugees were reported just between the months of February and June of 2006. Undoubtedly those not registering pushes the number much higher. As I pointed out below, the survey methodology means that these displaced refugees had very little chance of being surveyed. But in addition to that, their migration is sure to skew the analysis of the data.
The authors acknowledge as much in their paper:
"The population data used for cluster selection were at least 2 years old, and if populations subsequently migrated from areas of high mortality to those with low mortality, the sample might have over-represented the high-mortality
areas."
http://notropis.blogspot.com/
"We have gone and looked at every recent war we can find, and only in Bosnia did all governmental statistics add up to even one-fifth of the true death toll. And in Bosnia, the rate was 30 or 40 percent, with huge support for surveillance activities from the UN. So itÂ’s normal in times of war that communications systems break down, systems for registering events break down."
Even with such terrible registration rates for death certificates, isn't it just amazing how the Lancet group was able to get well over 80% of the households to produce a death certificate? This was a key element in their validation of interprolating the numbers out to >650,000.
Seems bogus to me.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at October 16, 2006 11:48 PM (jHBWL)
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To compare deaths-to-wounds ratios in combat with what's going on in Iraq is just pig-ignorant.
Then, to presume at least WWII-quality medical care is to ignore the fact that hospitals currently are serving as *bases* for some of the militias, so a lot of wounded probably aren't even seeking medical help.
Beyond that, sure, it's possible the Lancet study is flawed. But nothing to date proves it, and disinterested public-health professionals find the survey techniques generally unassailable.
As for IraqBodyCount, anyone who knows anything about statistics has known for some time that its own methodology was overwhelmingly likely to have been understating fatalities by anywhere from several multiples to an order of magnitude.
But don't let, you know, facts get in the way of a good story.
Posted by: Lex at October 17, 2006 02:51 PM (FcWi1)
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Where are the death certificates? If they could get them for 501 and of the 546 people they said were killed because of the war, where are the rest?
The methodology is sloppy, they virtually ignore rural areas, and the sample groups are too small and interrelated. Note how few real professionals are prepared to risk their reputations backing this absurd claim. It is like saying the earth is flat, it is ridiculous on its face.
It is political and it shows a cyncial disregard for the suffering of the Iraqi people. They are just cannon fodder for the people who did this report.
I wonder what the numbers would have been had they done a report like this when Saddam was around and used as a sample the Kurds and Shia? There were people in the Kurdish north whose entire villages were destroyed. I wonder how many millions they could have claimed as dead using this methodology? But then again, Saddam would not even have let them talk to people.
Posted by: terrye at October 18, 2006 06:30 AM (4XoCB)
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The
Wall Street Journal says that the Lancet is a bogus report.
Specifically that the selection of only 47 clusters to represent 26 million people was bogus.
Also that no demographics were asked of the interviewees so that the samples could be compared with a census or other information.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at October 18, 2006 09:47 AM (jHBWL)
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According to the Lancet’s disputed study, 601,027 people—al Qaeda terrorists, insurgents, Iraqi soldiers, police, and true civilians—have been killed violently ("the most common cause being gunfire," says the summary) since the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
We also know that for every combat-related death, there are usually a far greater number of casualties.
"Violent" death and "combat-related death" are not synonyms.
A large number of targeted murders would yield a large number of bodies, and few wounded.
(By "targeted murder", I mean a murder where the murderer has selected a victim, and decided to kill the victim, attacked, and did not stop until certain that the victim was dead.)
However, if you can prove that there is damn good injury tracking in Iraq - a statement that we have no evidence for - and can show that nowhere near that level of injury has occurred, you might well have found a flaw in the report.
Uh, do you have any proof that the injury tracking in Iraq is so good that it calls the study results into question?
I mean, you haven't presented any; you've just insisted that we surely would have known if there were that many injuries. You're saying that one should trust an unknown system of tracking and reporting injuries, and use that trust to ignore solid research with a sound methodology.
It doesn't sound very sensible to me. My figuring is, if the study is done soundly (and it was), we should be digging to find out if it's true, not looking for self-serving reasons to declare that it's false.
Posted by: Longhairedweirdo at October 18, 2006 02:19 PM (MTypB)
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October 12, 2006
Confirming or Debunking the Lancet Study with One Simple Question
The controversial and disputed Johns Hopkins study
published (free reg required) in the
Lancet today claims an additional 654,965 deaths as the result of the Iraq War since 2003, 610,000 of those deaths as a result of violence. It also claims they were able to verify that 92% of those 629 claimed killed in their survey had valid death certificates.
Using the research of the John Hopkins study, the Iraqi Ministry of Health should be able to therefore produce roughly 602,568 total death certificates (654,965 x 92%), and 561,200 (610,000 x 92%) of these death certificates should by attributed to violent deaths, if they do in fact collect such information nationally.
If they have far, far less death certificates on file, then the Lancet study will have invalidated itself using it's own methodology, would it not?
I'll also be very interested to find out whether or not Gilbert Burnham of John Hopkins or the editors of the Lancet made any attempt to check their figures against any available compilations of the number of death certificates issued in Iraq as a check on their research. Iraqi morgues regularly and independently released their own figures until September, when the Iraqi government took over that responsibility, which was after the data in the study was compiled by June of 2006.
Other Estimates
Not surprisingly the study figures--far beyond every other survey done by orders of magnitude--are widely discounted by most, and run contrary to every previous attempt to estimate casualties.
Iraq Body Count, a well-respected site that tracks the number of casualties in Iraq based upon media reports, lists the maximum number of casualties to date at 48,693.
The Brookings Institute reports (PDF) their estimate, based upon IBC and United Nations Cumulative data until August 31, 2006, to be a slightly higher figure of 62,000 civilian deaths due to violence. Michael E. O'Hanlon of the Brookings Institution said of the Lancet numbers:
"I do not believe the new numbers. I think they're way off," he said.
A June 25, 2006 Los Angeles Times report comes up with another set of figures:
The Times attempted to reach a comprehensive figure by obtaining statistics from the Baghdad morgue and the Health Ministry and checking those numbers against a sampling of local health departments for possible undercounts.
The Health Ministry gathers numbers from hospitals in the capital and the outlying provinces. If a victim of violence dies at a hospital or arrives dead, medical officials issue a death certificate. Relatives claim the body directly from the hospital and arrange for a speedy burial in keeping with Muslim beliefs.
If the morgue receives a body — usually those deemed suspicious deaths — officials there issue the death certificate.
Health Ministry officials said that because death certificates are issued and counted separately, the two data sets are not overlapping.
The Baghdad morgue received 30,204 bodies from 2003 through mid-2006, while the Health Ministry said it had documented 18,933 deaths from "military clashes" and "terrorist attacks" from April 5, 2004, to June 1, 2006. Together, the toll reaches 49,137.
Obviously, the Johns Hopkins study figures published in today’s Lancet are far higher than any previous estimates. It will be quite interesting to see if these figures—already dismissed by every world leader and military leader commenting on it so far—can indeed be defended.
As Bryan notes at Hot Air:
The Lancet study would have us believe that 2.5% of Iraq has been killed by the war in the past three years. It would have us believe that more Iraqis have died as a result of a mid-sized insurgency than Americans died in World War II. Or the Civil War. Or Germans, who died in World War II, fighting against the combined might of the USSR, the British Empire and the United States, at a time when Germany was reduced to conscripting young boys and old men to resist those armies as they approached Berlin.
This study, in other words, is nonsense on stilts.
Of course it is, but it will be most entertaining if we can debunk them using their own informaiton against them.
Update: A word on public health methodology from a medical professional at Jane Galt:
And sorry, but the defense that it's as soundly designed as can be expected for these kinds of public health surveys is a weak one. Retrospective, interview-based studies like this are poor designs. It may be the standard way of gathering data in the public health field, but that doesn't make it the best methodology, and it certainly doesn't make its statistics sound. For too long the field of public health has relied on these types of shotty shoddy numbers to influence public policy, whether it's the number of people who die from second hand smoke or the number who die from eating the wrong kinds of cooking oils.
The same blog post notes that Lancet-published studies of the past have been throughly debunked for shoddy research.
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If they have far, far less death certificates on file, then the Lancet study will have invalidated itself using it's own methodology, would it not?No. Not at all. Iraq is a chaotic country with an ineffective government. There are many little fiefdoms and regions that are effectively independent, with very little coordination with the central government. It would be absolutely astounding if, with Iraq in the state it is now, there was any central government authority with a massive database of every single death certificate that had been issued by every local authority in the country. Only statistical methods, imprecise as they are, can hope to give even a vaguely accurate picture.
Iraq Body Count, a well-respected site that tracks the number of casualties in Iraq based upon media reports, lists the maximum number of casualties to date at 48,693.Can you please, just to ease the mental strain on the rest of us, acknowledge that you understand that the IBC is based on media reports, and not every single death in the country is reported by the media? You get that right? As the IBC themselves say:
Our maximum therefore refers to reported deaths - which can only be a sample of true deaths unless one assumes that every civilian death has been reported. It is likely that many if not most civilian casualties will go unreported by the media. That is the sad nature of war.
Posted by: Mat at October 12, 2006 10:03 AM (kVBtr)
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Can you please, just to ease the mental strain on the rest of us, acknowledge that you understand that the IBC is based on media reports...
You mean, like in the
exact section you quoted?
dee-dee-dee...
And I'm waiting on your explaination of why the Brookings and L.A.Times estiamtes are so off, and yet close to each other, and why every government leader in the free world, including the Iraqis themselves, think this report is utter bunk.
Do you really, honestly think that the earlier estimates were off by more casualties than were compiled in the the U.S Civil War, or those sustained by the German Military in World War II, and the entire world just fault
missed it?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 12, 2006 10:19 AM (g5Nba)
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You mean, like in the exact section you quoted?What came after the ellipsis, dude? It was important, you know. The IBC is an
under-estimate.
The Brookings numbers are based on the IBC.
As to what's wrong with the LA Times numbers, it's right there in the link you provided:Many more Iraqis are believed to have been killed but not counted because of serious lapses in recording deaths in the chaotic first year after the invasion, when there was no functioning Iraqi government, and continued spotty reporting nationwide since.
...and why every government leader in the free world, including the Iraqis themselves, think this report is utter bunk.Every leader in the free world? You have a quote from the Prime Minister of Belgium?
The reason why the leaders of Iraq and the USA want to deny these numbers is that they're trying to keep control of a country on the verge of civil war, and bad news just makes this worse. And there's nothing even wrong with that. But they're hardly disinterested commentators.
Do you really, honestly think that the earlier estimates were off by more casualties than were compiled in the the U.S Civil War, or those sustained by the German Military in World War II, and the entire world just fault missed it?I believe that the earlier estimates were dramatic underestimates, mainly because the very people who compiled them claim... that they're dramatic underestimates. To be honest, I'm not entirely convinced that it's 655,000 myself, but this survey has by far the best methodology I've seen so far, so until a better survey comes along, that's what I'm going with.
And I don't know why you keep going on about this "and we just missed it" line. Which news are you watching? Every day we get news about an attack or a discovery of butchered victims. No-one's missing anything, except reliable overall statistics, and that's precisely what the John Hopkins study is supposed to correct.
Posted by: Mat at October 12, 2006 10:50 AM (KvK7c)
4
So Iraq has almost the
same rate of population loss as Japan had during WWII? 550 Iraqi dead
per day? Give me a break. With the last study these folks did right before the 2004 election, this is beyond questionable methodology. It borders on election tampering.
G. Hamid
Posted by: G. Hamid at October 12, 2006 11:22 AM (Ej1ST)
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Could someone with more military knowledge than myself provide me with air strike figures from the period of June of 2005 to June of 2006 or tell me where I might be able to get such figures?
What I want to know specifically is how many actual targets were struck during this period?
Posted by: mike at October 12, 2006 01:41 PM (c5sWc)
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I see Mat has already corrected your misuse of Iraq Body Count. However, keep in mind that there's something else Mat missed.
IBC counts *only* violent, civilian deaths recorded by two English speaking sources.
It doesn't count military actions, terrorist actions, etc., and it only counts those that are dual reported.
If you said "if you could prove to me there were more than 40,000 innocent victims of this war, I'd agree it was wrong" (I can't imagine your actually saying that...), then I could send you to IBC, and you could see that there have certainly been many more than that.
The study tried to chase down all additional deaths, from all causes, regardless of whether or not they were reported.
So, it tried to grab deaths of civilians, military, police, insurgent, terrorist, or unknown, for any cause, and then subtracted the number of deaths we would have expected, had things stayed the way they did in the 14 months pre-invasion.
As for the big numbers of deaths, 833 deaths per day is one 30,000th of the Iraqi population per day. If there were 833 deaths per year, ten people handled each body, and they all took turns, in one year, a mere 1/8th of Iraq would have had to take a turn being one of the ten people on body duty for a single body. Yes, the large number of deaths could be swallowed up, especially when it quickly stopped being "news". Do you see it in the newspaper when someone mugs a person in the bad part of town?
The study, taken over completely different populations, provided greater support for the 2004 report, coming up with similar number, with greater precision. Instead of 8-192k, centered on 98k, we have about 60-160k, centered on 112k. If you study the same phenomenon twice, and get similar results, you're virtually certain to be on the right track. Sure, your methodology could be screwed up, but screwed up so as to skew the results to such a similar estimate?
Face it; you've got strong evidence that the invasion has killed hundreds of thousands of people. Your choice is to try to learn the truth, or to insist you don't like the truth and walk away.
But until you find a *real* problem with the evidence, something more than "Bush thinks it's wrong, and the Iraqi government thinks it's wrong and (some UK officials - I don't know if Blair commented or not) say its wrong!", you're refusing to accept the strongest evidence we have.
Of course Bush would refuse to accept the evidence; he doesn't want to be known as the man whose invasion caused 650,000 deaths. Ditto for the UK, who were in it from the start, in a big way. Iraq doesn't want to admit they can't keep their citizenry safe.
But what are the statisticians who have dug into the guts of the report saying?
One of them - me, though I'm not an expert on experimental design, I can check the numbers and assumptions, and they *do* add up - says that it's solid. Rock solid. It would just about require deliberate fraud to make this report inaccurate. And if you're going to claim deliberate fraud, you ought to have evidence, or, again, you'd be refusing to accept the strongest evidence we have.
Posted by: Longhairedweirdo at October 12, 2006 04:19 PM (cFBux)
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Face it; you've got strong evidence that the invasion has killed hundreds of thousands of people.
No, I do not. I have a bit of political agi-prop printed in a public health journal with a history of (a)sensationalism, and (b) publishing throughly debunked research (which I will further detail in my next post).
Again, it goes back to GIGO= Garbage in, Garbage Out.
I've read the report, and think I understand the methodolgy enough to know that it is a slightly larger sample size repeat of the same methodology used and dismissed in it's previous report of two years ago, that to date, not another single study or estimate has supported. Not
one.
ThE United Nations did not support the figures in the 2004 report, and is surprised at the figures shown now. The L.A .Time estimate released in June reported 50,000 and acknowledged it was probably underreported... but not by the outrageous factor of more than ten that this John Hokpins study suggests.
You lefties keep trying to win this argument saying that the methodology is sound, without acknowledging that the researcheven admits it is far from accurate. It is a guestimate, a number arrived at by visiting separate areas that may or may not be representative, by doctors that may or may not have political motivations (remember the Fallujah doctors that swore white phosphorous was used again and again, when the bodies they showed were completely inconsistent with WP wounds?), interviewing people who also may have motivations of their own. This is a house of cards built upon a scientific-sounding framework that falls apart under an absurd casualty claim more than a half million above any prior estimate.
According to you, there are 600,000 relatively fresh civilian graves in Iraq.
Funny how no one can find them.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 12, 2006 05:01 PM (BTdrY)
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The Baghdad morgue received 30,204 bodies from 2003 through mid-2006, while the Health Ministry said it had documented 18,933 deaths from "military clashes" and "terrorist attacks" from April 5, 2004, to June 1, 2006. Together, the toll reaches 49,137.
The L.A. Times numbers only take into account the deaths that occured in Baghdad, what about the rest of the country, if 50,000 deaths occured in the capital, a number of 100,000 t0 150,000 is not that far fetched for the rest of the country (Baghdad has 1/6 of the whole Iraqi population, so maybe a number of 300,000 is not that far fetched)
Posted by: Mike Huntley at October 15, 2006 01:40 PM (Db6U5)
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October 11, 2006
Small Plane Hits NYC Skyscraper
I hope this is just an
accident:
The aircraft struck the 20th floor of a building on East 72nd Street, said Fire Department spokeswoman Emily Rahimi. Witnesses said the crash caused a loud noise, and burning and falling debris was seen. Flames were seen shooting out of the windows.
"There's huge pieces of debris falling," said one witness who refused to give her full name. "There's so much falling now, I've got to get away."
The article goes on to say that this is a 50 story building, meaning that 30 stories of the building is above the site of the strike, which would likely make it difficult for people to escape through the elevators. The relatively low strike and small size of the plane might make a rooftop helicopter evacuation plausible, but I just don't have enough details to know.
It is too early to know how bad the fire may be or what the proximate cause was at this point. More as this develops...
Update From Allah's description, it does indeed sound like an accident and it appears that the NYFD will bring this under control, if they haven't already.
Update: NY Yankee's pitcher Cory Lidle and an instructor pilot were killed in the crash.
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Apparently it looks as if Yankee pitcher Cory Lidle was onboard and is feared dead.
Posted by: Nico at October 11, 2006 04:36 PM (059Fh)
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October 10, 2006
North Korean Seppuku?
Can someone please tell me when the firing of an ICBM armed with a nuclear warhead was not universally recognized as an
act of war?
North Korea stepped up its threats aimed at Washington, saying it could fire a nuclear[sic] nuclear-tipped missile unless the United States acts to resolve its standoff with Pyongyang, the Yonhap news agency reported Tuesday from Beijing.
Even if Pyongyang is confirmed to have nuclear weapons, experts say it's unlikely the North has a bomb design small and light enough to be mounted atop a missile. Their long-range missile capability also remains in question, after a test rocket in July apparently fizzled out shortly after takeoff.
"We hope the situation will be resolved before an unfortunate incident of us firing a nuclear missile comes," Yonhap quoted an unidentified North Korean official as saying. "That depends on how the U.S. will act."
The official said the nuclear test was "an expression of our intention to face the United States across the negotiating table," reported Yonhap, which didn't say how or where it contacted the official, or why no name was given.
More after I have a chance to think about what this means...
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experts say it's unlikely the North has a bomb design small and light enough to be mounted atop a missile.
Almost 25 years ago, John Phillips designed such a bomb in a few months as a junior year physics project.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 10, 2006 08:59 AM (PNnHh)
Posted by: hdw at October 10, 2006 10:07 AM (nA9AR)
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Are you saying that the missile that fired and failed was an act of war? Or the threat of firing a missile with a nuclear warhead on it's tip is the same as doing it, thus being an act of war?
Claiming to have the technology and ability to launch "an ICBM armed with a nuclear warhead" and actually doing so are two totally different things. Scary stuff going on nonetheless, but I wouldn't call the latest North Korean test "an act of war."
Posted by: H! at October 10, 2006 10:54 AM (FUME3)
4
H!,
Not sure I get your point. Are you just trying to say you don't like the turn of the phrase, or are you supporting NK's right to fire a nuclear tipped missile if they want?
Many now doubt that NK actually has nuclear capability - yet. And we know that the NoDong II was a failure.
However - just say that they had the technology - a nuke warhead, and a missile big enough to hit US territory. When a launch occurs, it takes a few minutes to determine where the bird is going. In many nuclear scenarios counter-launch has to happen early enough to get your own missiles away. In that type of scenario, would a NK launch constitute an act of war? Yes.
But, a few missiles, a few warheards - it would not seem that NK has enough to devastate the US and we could annihilate them in second strike. I suspect that first NK would try on a neighbor. Then you get into who are the allies of the neighbor and what are their capabilities. Japan, China, SK, etc. Now you open a real can of worms. Would that be an act of war? Yes.
What about a shot into the ocean? I don't think anyone would retaliate, but what concerns do we then need to think about with regards to nuclear contamination spreading through the ocean? That impacts quite a few lives. And yes - I know that the US conducted such tests in the early days - but I think you would agree that everybody knows a lot more about the effects now. Back then a lot was speculation....
Posted by: Specter at October 10, 2006 11:22 AM (ybfXM)
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Specter,
I'm doing neither. I'm just saying that North Korea didn't fire a nuclear-tipped missile at us, so to say that firing an ICBM with a nuclear warhead on it's tip is an act of war is totally agreeable, but not what actually happened.
The "test" I was referring to was the missile launch, not the recent (and apparently failed) nuke test underground.
I was just trying to figure out if the CY was claiming that North Korea had committed an act of war with it's missle test, or was he just stating that by putting a nuke in there, an act of war WOULD be committed... something even I would support.
Posted by: H! at October 10, 2006 04:40 PM (FUME3)
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I meant firing a missile
with a nucelar warhead attached, or one we suspected was attached. If they say they are going to fire a nuclear ICBM and a missile goes up and we return fire before it hits and is determined to be a dud or a fake, then I don't have any sympathy for them.
It's kinda like telling a cop that you have a gun in your pocket and then making a sudden move for your pocket. If the cop shoots you thinking you are armed, that is considered justifiable.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 10, 2006 04:47 PM (BTdrY)
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Gotcha, thanks for clarifying. This liberal DEM agrees with that 110%.
Posted by: H! at October 10, 2006 05:12 PM (FUME3)
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Don't worry, Kim, you fire a missile at the US, and I
promise you we'll "act to resove [our] standoff" with you.
Of course, you'll be dead when we're finished.
Posted by: Greg D at October 11, 2006 11:58 AM (8viKe)
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NorK Dork Corked
And Bill Gertz agrees with that
initial speculation, just 24 short hours
later:
U.S. intelligence agencies say, based on preliminary indications, that North Korea did not produce its first nuclear blast yesterday.
U.S. officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said that seismic readings show that the conventional high explosives used to create a chain reaction in a plutonium-based device went off, but that the blast's readings were shy of a typical nuclear detonation.
"We're still evaluating the data, and as more data comes in, we hope to develop a clearer picture," said one official familiar with intelligence reports.
"There was a seismic event that registered about 4 on the Richter scale, but it still isn't clear if it was a nuclear test. You can get that kind of seismic reading from high explosives."
It still remains, of course, to see if this assessment is correct. It could have been a faulty nuke, after all.
As ever, the sleepless Allah is on the case.
Update: Related thoughts at AoC.
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