June 11, 2007
Shaped Charge Captured in Afghanistan
They don't say "EFP" or "explosively-formed penetrator," but based upon how the story is composed and allusions to Iraq, it seems like that is what they are probably
talking about here.
A hi-tech bomb, similar to the ones used by militants in Iraq, has been found in the Afghan capital, Kabul.
Afghan intelligence sources say the bomb can penetrate heavily armoured vehicles and was set up by a road to target a high-level government convoy.
There is increasing evidence that sophisticated explosives technology is crossing into Afghanistan from Iraq.
Police and government officials say they believe Iran is the source of these so-called "shaped charges".
'Shaped charges'
They have been used widely in Iraq and now it seems they are on the streets of Afghanistan.
These "shaped charges" are designed to explode in a specific direction, to concentrate the force into one point, and their discovery in Kabul is a worrying development for security forces.
To be fair, EFPs are just one kind of shaped charge, and the device found in Kabul may not be an EFP. It is worrisome that the media so quickly tied this device to Iran, and I'd like to know how they made that determination. I suspect that EOD specialists noted characteristics of this device that mimic those devices captured in Iraq to make that determination, but don't know for certain.
Needless to say, it bears watching to see if more charges thought to be of Iranian origin show up in Afghanistan, which could indicate that Iran is attempting to spread its influence eastward.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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It is worrisome that the media so quickly tied this device to Iran, and I'd like to know how they made that determination.
They plan on hanging it on Bush as another example of administrative incompetence. Their ability to whitewash the real source has already been established.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 11, 2007 10:21 AM (RLeq1)
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Not be more pedantic than usual, but shaped charges have been in Kabul for a long time.
An RPG is a shaped charge.
My guess is this is a much different critter, but just calling it a shaped charge doesn't make it high tech. It's just more sophisticated, and much more lethal, than the standard IED.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 11, 2007 01:53 PM (kxecL)
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Information Underload
Connecticut Senator Joe Lieberman's comments yesterday on
Face the Nation have drawn him
quite a bit of attention:
"We've said so publicly that the Iranians have a base in Iran at which they are training Iraqis who are coming in and killing Americans. By some estimates, they have killed as many as 200 American soldiers...if there's any hope of the Iranians living according to the international rule of law and stopping, for instance, their nuclear weapons development, we can't just talk to them...He added, "If they don't play by the rules, we've got to use our force, and to me, that would include taking military action to stop them from doing what they're doing."
"They can't believe that they have immunity for training and equipping people to come in and kill Americans," he said. "We cannot let them get away with it. If we do, they'll take that as a sign of weakness on our part and we will pay for it in Iraq and throughout the region and ultimately right here at home."
People from the right and left have been quick to issue judgement on his pronouncement.
On National Review Online, Michael Ledeen states he thinks Lieberman should be our new Secretary of State because of this comments, while a whole host of liberal blogs have taken the opportunity to use these words against the former Democrat (now Independent) Senator, labeling him "a tool," a "neocon," a "warmonger," and far worse.
Sadly, while both the right and left have quickly jumped on their respective and predictable bandwagons to either support the Senator or condemn LiebermanÂ’s comments, I've read precious little issued forth in concern for the American military forces ostensibly being attacked with Iranian weapons, or by militiamen that are rumored to be trained at facilities within Iran.
Shouldn't we be debating whether or not to attack Iran based upon the threats to American servicemen? This simply is not a conversation being had.
It doesn't seem that either side wants to ask the hard questions that must be asked.
We've heard time and again that Iran is shipping precision-made EFPs (Explosively-Formed Penetrators) into Iraq to militias targeting American armored vehicles. We've heard from the military that the homemade EFPs manufactured in Iraq are not made with enough precision to perform properly against American armor, and that only those EFPs made professionally in Iran can cut through the armor of even our main battle tanks.
Shouldn't we in the blogosphere be asking for details, asking the military to completely explain, in excruciating detail, the technical characteristics of these EFPs that identify them as being Iranian in origin? Shouldn't we be asking for this conclusive proof that the Iranian government must be behind the manufacture of such weapons?
We've heard time and again that other Iranian ordnance, from mortar shells to artillery rounds to sniper rifles to surface-to-air missiles, has been captured in Iraq. Shouldn't we be asking characteristics identify these weapons as exclusively Iranian in origin, and then ask if they could be filtering into Iraq in any other way than with the assistance of the Iranian government?
We've heard time and again that the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Qods Force is actively engaged in training and equipping militias in Iraq; shouldn't we be pushing for hard evidence of such a connection, and debating whether or not the evidence of such connections is indeed an act of war worthy of a political, economic, or military response?
What precisely is Senator Lieberman asking for? Is he asking for American special operations units to insert into Iran to capture evidence from suspected EFP manufacturing centers? Is he asking for American air assets to attack and destroy the suspected terrorist training facilities at Imam Ali base near Khorram Abad, or for strikes on Revolutionary Guard bases, training facilities, or leadership targets?
We should be asking these questions, but it seems too many in the blogosphere are siloed into their positions, firmly for or against a strike against Iran based not on the threat posed to American, British, and Iraqi forces, but based upon their own domestic political objectives and agendas.
The questions we should be asking should revolve around the mortal threat Iranian weapons and training either do or do not pose to our troops and that of our allies. We should be asking for hard evidence that such weapons and training are being provided by the Iranian regime. We should be pushing the military, the media, and our leaders to provide us as much information as possible, so that we can intelligently discuss whether or not the Iranian government is either directing or allowing actions against our forces in the region, and what an appropriate response to such a threat would be.
But we aren't doing that in the blogosphere, or in the media.
We've chosen our positions, and have determined our support or opposition to actions against Iran based upon very little but our own preconceived notions and political ideologies, and with little regard to the threat posed to our national security, the security of Iraq, and the security of our troops who may be facing Iranian weapons and Iranian-trained militiamen and insurgents.
Should we consider attacking Iranian personnel and facilities for their involvement in Iraq? I, for one, don't have enough information yet to make a judgement for or against such a strike.
I wish my fellow bloggers and members of the media would pressure our politicians and the military to produce the answers we require to develop an informed opinion, though apparently, many don't feel that being informed is necessary at all.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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"We should be asking for hard evidence that such weapons and training are being provided by the Iranian regime. We should be pushing the military, the media, and our leaders to provide us as much information as possible, so that we can intelligently discuss whether or not the Iranian government is either directing or allowing actions against our forces in the region, and what an appropriate response to such a threat would be."
I got heavily slated last week for saying exactly the same thing right here.
Indeed, asking for evidence was "mainlining the kool-aid" I was accused of being a "paranoid" or "conspiracy theorist goofiness", being in "bad faith". I hope that you can avoid these pitfalls.
What is to be done about facts is a completely seperate issue from the establishment of those facts in the first place.
Like I said, I want to see cold hard evidence, not mere assertion.
Posted by: Rafar at June 11, 2007 09:47 AM (kkgmI)
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Senator LiebermanÂ’s voting record on military issues can be found at: http://vote-smart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=53278&type=category&category=47&go.x=11&go.y=8
Senator LiebermanÂ’s history of speeches on action in Iran can be found at: http://vote-smart.org/speech.php?keyword=Iran+action&daterange=&begin=&end=&phrase=&contain=&without=&type=search&can_id=53278&go2.x=0&go2.y=0#Results
Senator LiebermanÂ’s ratings from special interest groups on military issues can be found at: http://vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=53278
For more information on Senator LiebermanÂ’s position on military issues please visit http://www.vote-smart.org or call our hotline at 1-888-VOTE-SMART.
Posted by: Project Vote Smart at June 11, 2007 05:17 PM (Z+KDc)
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Let me respond to some of the questions that you are asking to be asked. Isn't that kind of "some critics say"... but I digress. The sniper rifles that you mention were tracked by serial number. The Swiss government, ignoring a request from our embassy not to sell them snipper rifles, proceeded to sell a significant number of top of the line military snipper rifles to the government of Iran for "anti-terrorist" operations. A number of these rifles, sold to the Iranian government and transfered to their army, have been captured in Baghdad. They were cross checked by serial number with the Swiss government, who verified that they were part of those sold to Iran.
The EFPs. I have seen both the Iranian imported (including the PERSIAN factory markings on the explosive content)and the locally produced. It is night and day. The Iranian EFPs are made of machined components and copper blast plates. The Locally produced are rough cut, welded and made of anything from surplus acetylene tanks to old cast iron water pipe.
The Army has given reporters briefings with the actual EFPs sitting on the tables for reporters to touch and compare. No matter, reality is subject to editorial needs.
Posted by: Rey at June 12, 2007 01:28 AM (oWGMo)
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June 08, 2007
More Bloodshed on The Way In Iraq
JD Johannes
makes some predictions about the "surge" in Iraq leading to a wider war before peace is achieved.
I don't think he's probably too far off the mark.
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June 07, 2007
Is a Summer Proxy War Brewing To Protect Iranian Nukes?
And so the build-up
begins:
Israeli intelligence officials have been warning for weeks that Syria is investing hundreds of millions of dollars in anti-tank weapons, antiaircraft rockets, and other missiles, and bolstering its presence along the Israeli border.
Mohammad al Habash, a Syrian parliament member, meanwhile, told the Al Jazeera satellite channel this week that his country was actively preparing for war with Israel, which he said he expected to break out this summer.
I'd suggest taking that bit of news in this context:
A senior member of Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's government suggested that his country is running out of patience with a US-backed diplomatic overture to head off Iran's nuclear ambitions, The Associated Press (AP) reported.
Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has already threatened the U.N. Security Council after threatening the destruction of Israel in the near future just days ago.
We also know that in the wake of last summer's battle in Lebanon that Syria and Iran moved rapidly to rearm the stockpiles of their Hezbollah proxies with over 20,000 short-range missiles and a significant quantity of small arms and ammunition.
According to Defense Update, Hezbollah's deputy secretary Sheikh Naim Kassem intoned that the terror group was preparing for another "adventure" with Israel this summer, and has been receiving anti-aircraft missiles and training directly from Islamic Revolutionary Guards at Iran's Imam Ali base in Tehran.
It seems that we are witnessing is a deliberate and calculated build-up of forces by Syria and Hezbollah for a probable summer campaign against Israel, an attempt likely orchestrated by Iran.
What would be the goal of such a campaign?
Any Israeli response to a summer war would necessarily involve the use of the IDF's strike fighters to hit enemy armor, troop concentrations, or rocket firing areas that are beyond the range of Israeli artillery.
With the recent build-up in training and equipment for both Hezbollah and Syrian anti-aircraft units, it seems possible that the goal of a summer war would be to draw Israel aircraft into an engagement so that they could be ambushed and shot down.
If Syrian and Hezbollah forces could draw Israel aircraft into range, volleys of anti-aircraft missiles could potentially bring down some of Israel's premier strike aircraft and pilots, including the long-range strike fighters that have been training for a possible Israeli strike against Iran's nuclear facilities.
If Israel loses a significant number of pilots and aircraft (Israel only has 25 F-15I "Ra'am" fighters, thought to be their preferred method of delivering "bunkerbuster" bombs against hardened Iranian facilities), then the probability of success of any Israeli air strike against Iran's nuclear facilities decreases.
The coming summer war may be designed for the sole purpose of buying the Iranian program the time it needs to come to fruition and produce a nuclear warhead.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Perhaps they could instead confound their foes by reusing, to an extent, the Six Day War game plan. Attack Iran with the long-range strike force (F-15I, F-16I, tankers), fending off the Syrians, if they choose to attack at a moment of perceived Israeli weakness, using the older F-15s and F-16s while attacking Hezbollah with the remaining A-4 and F-4 to keep them off-balance until the strike force has hopefully completed its task.
Posted by: Surly at June 07, 2007 11:31 AM (Q5WxB)
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We need to get out of Israel's way and let them do what it takes to protect themselves...whatever that might be.
"Let slip the dogs of war"....
Posted by: LisaV (aka "Talismen - Lady Crusader against jihad) at June 07, 2007 12:26 PM (hosSA)
3
It seems that we are witnessing is a deliberate and calculated build-up of forces by Syria and Hezbollah for a probable summer campaign against Israel, an attempt likely orchestrated by Iran.
"Likely"...on what do you base this? The ConfedYank's own intelligence? I suspect you use the Dick Cheney filter of intel analysis.
Posted by: Random Guy at June 08, 2007 12:42 AM (K1Emm)
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Maybe I'm just cynical, but I've begun to think that for radical Islamic politicians, proposing to destroy Israel is kind of like Republicans proposing to abolish abortion (or Democrats proposing Universal Healthcare). Sure these propositions get their supporters all riled up, but nobody ever really does anything. It's just political theater. Again, I'm probably just being cynical and threats on the international level should always be taken seriously.
Posted by: B.E.A.T. at June 08, 2007 02:45 AM (p+Ao3)
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"Likely"...on what do you base this? The ConfedYank's own intelligence?
Ramdom, did you actually, you know,
read the post?
Both Hezbollah's deputy secretary Sheikh Naim Kassem and Syria's Mohammad al Habash indicated they are preparing for a summer campign against Israel, and both have been stockpiling and spending hundreds of million of dollars in weaponry. Iran has continually promised ot erradicate Israel, and soon.
I based my post on
their words and actions, as carried by media outlets
they chose to spoke with.
Now it very well may be that the conclusion I'm drawing are incorrect, but as no one can predict the future, what we have to work with as our best estimates based upon what people are doing, and what they say they are preparing to do.
The scenario I've drawn out seems quite logical to my way of thinking, but if you would like to lay out a contrary argument based upon what they say they are preparing for and what they are stockpiling for with their particular mix of weapons and projected order of battle, by all means, please provide an alternative scenario.
All of us are waiting with bated breath.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 08, 2007 07:11 AM (9y6qg)
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*chirp*
*chirp* *chirp*
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 08, 2007 02:39 PM (Sr5ZD)
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The scenario I've drawn out seems quite logical to my way of thinking
Again, no evidence of some grand trans-national Islamic conspiracy, instead -- to your "way of thinking" is enough evidence that Iran has directly called Hamas and directed...etc. I'm not arguing that there isn't a connection between these parties, what I'm arguing is whether any of this stuff is as *coordinated* as your post seems to imply. And you have to admit that you don't have s**t for evidence for that --everything you implied is just to your "way of thinking". Hence the Cheney analogy.
Purple Avenger, the crickets are between your ears.
Posted by: Random Guy at June 09, 2007 01:10 AM (K1Emm)
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June 06, 2007
Blotter Claims Iran Caught Red-Handed, Ignorant Critics Deny Reality of Sunni/Shia Terror Relationships
Here's the
Blotter story, which I'll take with a Prudential rock-sized grain of salt, as I've personally caught Brian Ross being
dead wrong on the facts before.
That said, I'm already sick and tired of the smugly ignorant (check out the Blotter's comment thread as well) who repeat the delusion that Iranian Shias will not work with or support Iraqi insurgents, Afghan Taliban, or al Qaeda terrorists, merely because these groups are Sunni.
I hate to break this fabrication with a dose of reality, but does anyone remember who Iran's primary ally is? Sunni Baathist Syria. Iran has also long supported Sunni terrorist groups Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad, just to name two more.
Iran has a long and concrete history of allying with Baathist Syria and Sunni terrorist groups to support their foreign policy goals.
It's time to put this self-serving bit of "common sense" to bed as the abject ignorance it actually is.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Ahh, Bob. The regime in Syria is Alawite Shia; a minority yes, but in charge.
Posted by: RiverRat at June 07, 2007 01:01 AM (1ZNLc)
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"the delusion that Iranian Shias will not work with or support Iraqi insurgents, Afghan Taliban, or al Qaeda terrorists, merely because these groups are Sunni."
No, the argument is slightly more complex than that.
If we assume that Iran wants Iraq to become a stable Iranian ally (which should be obvious) then it is in their interests to support the elected Iraqi government (who are more pro-Iran than they are pro-US, many of whom come from Iranian backed political parties such as Da'wa and SCIRI (Now SIIC).)
Given that it is in their interest to support the government, why would they supply weapons to groups who reject that government? Why, in particular, would they supply Ex-Baathist Sunnis and Salafist Jihadis, both of whom were their sworn enemies against their friends in the government.
It makes about as much sense as the US supplying arms and training to Shiite rebels in Saudi Arabia. Forget about the denominations and faiths, look at the politics.
Now, I grant that it is possible that Iran *is* playing a very dangerous game, turning up the heat on the US with the intent of keeping them in Iraq in order to keep them tied down and unable to attack Iran. However, there are strong arguments against them taking such action;
1) If it was demonstrated clearly that they were it would provide the US with the causus belli required to bomb Iranian nuclear facilities (the very thing that Iran wants to avoid)
2) As above, they would be destabalising a government that is their friend in favour of people who are their enemies.
3) They don't have to get involved because it is obvious that in the next couple of years the Iraqi government is going to evict US troops, leaving an Iranian-Iraqi alliance. This will happen quite happily without Iranian involvement.
So, given strong arguments against Iranian involvement, and the lack of any credible evidence in favour of Iranian involvement, it behooves us to ask for extraordinarily strong evidence to match the extraordinarily claim that Iran is acting in such a foolish manner.
In response to the Blotter article, well, given that everyone is onvolved in a propeganda war, I'll believe what military analysts say when the evidence is provided in public, to independant witnesses with the ability to fact check the claims.
Posted by: Rafar at June 07, 2007 05:36 AM (kkgmI)
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Been there, they are in involved.
Posted by: CSASarge at June 07, 2007 07:01 AM (2sjvI)
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Ahh, Bob. The regime in Syria is Alawite Shia; a minority yes, but in charge.
In Syria, the population is 90% Muslims and 74% of those are Sunni, including the security services that many experts claim is actually running the country, as is Assad's wife. I guess you could make the argument that by being Alawite, Assad is then a Shia is good standing, but that might only bolster my point--he still supplies arms and support to Sunni terrorist groups, making this yet another Shia regime that supports Sunni terrorism as an extension of their foreign policy.
If we assume that Iran wants Iraq to become a stable Iranian ally (which should be obvious) then it is in their interests to support the elected Iraqi government (who are more pro-Iran than they are pro-US, many of whom come from Iranian backed political parties such as Da'wa and SCIRI (Now SIIC).)
Given that it is in their interest to support the government, why would they supply weapons to groups who reject that government? Why, in particular, would they supply Ex-Baathist Sunnis and Salafist Jihadis, both of whom were their sworn enemies against their friends in the government.
The answer to that is blindingly simple isn't it?
Iran wants to force the coalition out of Iraq and NATO out of Afghanistan, and the simplist way to do that is to support
any group attempting to keep these countries destabilized and violent.
They have little to no interest in making Iraq an ally, at least not all of Iraq; they are keenly interested in controlling the southern Iraqi provinces when oil abounds, and they have the bulk of their allies. Iran would be quite happy with a a partitioned Iraq, as they could then exert their influence more fully, free from a cetralized Iraqi government. A partitioned Iraq would also allow them the freedom to pursue the Kuds in the north that have been a thorn in their sides for decades, or at the very least, might lead the Turks to confront the Kurds, drawing pro-Kurdish groups out of northwestern Iran to fight Turkish forces.
It is in Iran's best interests as a nation that views itself as a rising regional superpower to provide support to any terrorist group that could destabilize neighboring countries, and further their foreign policy aspirations to more influence the Persian Gulf Region.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 07, 2007 07:38 AM (9y6qg)
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and the lack of any credible evidence in favour of Iranian involvement
If Iraq's oil production stays low, world (and Iran's) oil prices stays higher.
What motivation could be simpler than that?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 07, 2007 07:53 AM (Sr5ZD)
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"So your working assumption is your being lied to?"
Well, yes. I assume that everyone is playing the propeganda game.
"Iran wants to force the coalition out of Iraq and NATO out of Afghanistan, and the simplist way to do that is to support any group attempting to keep these countries destabilized and violent."
The simplest way (and probably the only way) to get US forces out of Iraq is to ensure that the Pro-Iran government in Iraq gains control over the country, followed by a parliamentary move to expel US forces in entirety. Any other method will simply leave US permanent bases in place. Thus you want to be friends with the government in place and friends with nationalists who can force such a vote. What you don't want to do is give US forces the excuse to stay around forever.
(NB. Afghanistan is a different issue. There constant trouble on the boil is the best play)
"They have little to no interest in making Iraq an ally, at least not all of Iraq; they are keenly interested in controlling the southern Iraqi provinces when oil abounds, and they have the bulk of their allies. Iran would be quite happy with a a partitioned Iraq, as they could then exert their influence more fully, free from a cetralized Iraqi government."
Partitioned or not they want Iraq as an ally of theirs, not the US. I don't think that they care one way or another about partition, except that they have the same issues with an independent Kurdistan as Turkey does. A unified Iraq would eliminate that threat. A partitioned one would allow greater control of the South. Swings and roundabouts.
What they do need however, is a government stable enough to reject the US occupation because a small scale insurgency isn't going to do it for them. That's why I say that supporting the Sunni insurgents isn't in their best interests. Supporting the Salafi Jihadists would be plain nuts.
"It is in Iran's best interests as a nation that views itself as a rising regional superpower to provide support to any terrorist group that could destabilize neighboring countries, and further their foreign policy aspirations to more influence the Persian Gulf Region."
But the point is that they get more influence with a stable Pro-Iranian government in Bagdhad than they do out of an ongoing US occupation. Supporting Sunnni insurgents promotes the latter, not doing so promotes the former.
Why would they want chaos when their guys are in charge? Like I say, that would be like the US trying to destabalise the Saudis.
(As I say, in Afghanistan the logic is exactly reversed. Ongoing chaos in Afghanistan keeps NATO troops bogged down at a very low cost and may buy some influence with the possible new Islamist regime as opposed to the current Pro-Us government.)
"If Iraq's oil production stays low, world (and Iran's) oil prices stays higher."
World oil prices aren't going down for anyone and , without wanting to get all conspiritorial about it, the people who have done most to ensure high oil prices over the last five years have been the US government. I'm sure the Iranians are quite happy about it but they're just riding the wave without having to actually do anything at all.
In fact, that is the big gag of the whole war. The big winners are, without a doubt, the Iranians and they didn't need to lift a finger beyond a little counterintel, Chalabi style.
Posted by: Rafar at June 07, 2007 08:27 AM (kkgmI)
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"capture of top ranking Iranian intel agents in northern Iraq (oh, thats right, they were "diplomats")"
Oh yes, and if they are Iranian intel agents, can we see them, along with evidence of the same.
Once again we are asked to take it on good faith that they are who the US says they are rather than who the Iranians say they are.
Frankly, I am fed up with taking things on good faith. I want to see some cold hard evidence, not unsupported supposition. Surely that isn't so wrong?
Posted by: Rafar at June 07, 2007 08:32 AM (kkgmI)
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"The US provided their names, their ranks, and their positions in the Iranian regime. The iranians admitted they were with the regime but denied they were there for espionage or insurgency reasons."
Of course they admitted they were with the regime. As did the Kurdish authorities in the area (our allies remember). As, I imagine, did the President of Iraq when he met with them previously. The question isn't "Were the people in the Iranian consulate Iranians", it is "Were they instigating and supporting the insurgency?". On that question we have no evidence whatsoever just an accusation from one side and a denial from the other.
"You are choosing to accept the word of a lying, terrorist supporting regime that is flaunting international law on a daily basis and crushing individual liberty domestically."
No, I am choosing to accept no-one's word without evidence. Cold, hard, independently verified evidence. Where you choose to place your faith is, of course, your own choice, but every government, particularly in wartime, has a history of outright falsehood for wider gains.
Isn't one of the bases of conservative thought that when the government says "Trust me on this" you should get suspicious?
Posted by: Rafar at June 07, 2007 10:19 AM (kkgmI)
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TMP:::"Yeah, and "secular" Saddam would never work with "religious" al qaeda"
NO!!! Saddam had STRONG TIES to al qaeda and 911
"Isn't one of the bases of conservative thought that when the government says "Trust me on this" you should get suspicious"?
TMF:::"No its not. That is the bases of conspiracy theorist goofiness"
TMF your HALF right
some leaders have a MORAL COMPASS,,, some dont
some DESECRATE the OVAL OFFICE,,, others are FORTHRIGHT and defend the HOMELAND aginst EVILDOERS
TMF:::"Healthy skepticism is certainly warranted. Blanket doubt/solipism is not."
SOLIPISM??? whats that
i AGREE with most everythinmg else
Posted by: Karl at June 07, 2007 12:57 PM (5zEhw)
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"Healthy skepticism is certainly warranted."
What part of "I'd like to see some evidence for that claim" do you consider goes beyond "Healthy skepticism"?
"Blanket doubt/solipism is not."
Asking for evidence and reserving judgement until it is available is pretty much the opposite of Solipsism, which is, of course, the belief that knowledge beyond mind is unjustified or even impossible. A Solipsist would never ask for material evidence beause he would regard it as worthless. I am specifically asking for material evidence in support of a claim which is 'Empiricism'.
Sorry for the digression, but you can read simple stuff about Solipism here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism
and about Empiricism here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empiricism
Posted by: Rafar at June 07, 2007 02:18 PM (EX6eK)
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Rafar, what about the Iranian made EFPs we have found in Iraq? Is that proof enough for you they are involved?
Posted by: jbiccum at June 07, 2007 02:35 PM (Rd4s4)
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Rafar, what kind of proof do you need? Do you need to see them with your own eyes?
Posted by: jbiccum at June 07, 2007 02:36 PM (Rd4s4)
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Rafar,
Let's say that I can prove that the Iranian government purchased a very unique, very specific type of weapon, and the serial numbers of the weapons shipped were documented prior to transfer.
If within months of purchase those weapons started being used in distinctive attacks indivative of that very specific weapon type, and then these weapons started being captured in, say, Baghdad, and American forces captured them in very significant quantities--say more than 10% of the overall shipment--would you then believe that Iran was supplying weapons?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 07, 2007 02:51 PM (9y6qg)
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"Let's say that I can prove that the Iranian government purchased a very unique, very specific type of weapon, and the serial numbers of the weapons shipped were documented prior to transfer.
If within months of purchase those weapons started being used in distinctive attacks indivative of that very specific weapon type, and then these weapons started being captured in, say, Baghdad, and American forces captured them in very significant quantities--say more than 10% of the overall shipment--would you then believe that Iran was supplying weapons?"
I would certainly be very interested in such evidence. Do you have any from an independent or verifiable source?
Posted by: Rafar at June 07, 2007 03:07 PM (EX6eK)
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 07, 2007 03:14 PM (9y6qg)
16
Relatively credible, but I would note that the story says;
"The find is the latest in a series of discoveries that indicate that Teheran is providing support to Iraq's Shia insurgents."
I never claimed that the Iranians weren't arming the Shia militias. Hell, for all intents and purposes, the US army is arming the Shia militias, by providing equipment to the heavily infiltrated Iraqi police.
This post was about Iran supplying Sunni guerillas, not Shiite groups. We all know that the Badr corps, for example, was founded, funded and trained in Iran. They are, of course, the armed wing of SIIC (Was SCIRI) and run the interior ministry and thus a large section of the Iraqi police.
Posted by: Rafar at June 07, 2007 04:07 PM (EX6eK)
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Forget it Bob, this dude is mainlining the kool-aid.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 07, 2007 04:08 PM (Sr5ZD)
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"Forget it Bob, this dude is mainlining the kool-aid."
I'm sorry, asking for evidence and keeping to the original point of the post ("That said, I'm already sick and tired of the smugly ignorant (check out the Blotter's comment thread as well) who repeat the delusion that Iranian Shias will not work with or support Iraqi insurgents, Afghan Taliban, or al Qaeda terrorists, merely because these groups are Sunni.") is drinking the cool aid?
Surely believing stuff without evidence and arguing against strawmen versions of the post are the behaviours of the kool-aid drinker?
I mean, he wasn't talking about Shia groups, and neither was I.
I'll tell you what scared me. The number of people in the thread on the blotter who advocated everything ranging from nuking Tehran to turning the whole of the Middle East into a sea of glass. On evidence as poor as that offered. Believe what you like, but that is just sick. Surely you agree with that? Aren't we the people who consider all human life to be created equal?
Posted by: Rafar at June 07, 2007 04:36 PM (EX6eK)
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TMF:::"Now your making sense! I agree with you too!"
YES!!!!
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Clearly he harbored well known islamic jihadist terrorists like Abu Nidal and Abu Abbas, and also probably harbored the 1993 WTC bomber, Rahman Yasin for years, and provided millions to suicide bombers families in Israel, and likely had his emissary in Prague meet with Muhammed Attah several months prior to 9-11, and allowed al-qaeda linked terrorists Ansar Al Islam to operate with impunity in northern Iraq, and his regime had multiple contacts/high level meetings with Zawahiri, Bin Laden, and other top ranking Al Qaeda, and who knows how many other connections which haven't been uncovered..
But Im sorry, my friend, I cant take the leap of faith that you do by calling the ties to al qaeda "strong".
Thats where we'll have to agree to disagree buddy! Otherwise, KEEP THE FAITH
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
AGREED!!!! itsa just simantics!! you say tomayto i say tomahdo
YES!!!!
Posted by: Karl at June 07, 2007 06:39 PM (5zEhw)
20
asking for evidence...
Living in a cocoon willfully ignorant of existing evidence, previous news stories, and 38 years of historical context is more like it.
You came to this game with opinions already formed -- based on nothing but your "faith" that reality had to be the way you desired it to be.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 08, 2007 07:52 AM (Sr5ZD)
21
"Living in a cocoon willfully ignorant of existing evidence, previous news stories, and 38 years of historical context is more like it."
No, not really, but thank for for the frank assesment of my character. I, of course, have absolutely no idea about you so refrain from drawing conclusions about you.
By the way, why 38 years of context? Why not, say, a couple of hundred? Would you try to analyse the relations between the South and North of the US going on only the history of the last 50 years, or would an understanding of the last 200 be of more use?
"You came to this game with opinions already formed -- based on nothing but your "faith" that reality had to be the way you desired it to be."
No, again, you are confusing someone who has not drawn a conclusion and is presenting an argument for why evidence is needed to draw the given conclusion with someone who has already made his mind up.
As I said, it is possible that Iran is arming Iraqi Sunni Insurgents, it just doesn't make any sense. Given that it makes no sense I would expect some good solid evidence to convince me otherwise.
In contrast, Iran arming Iraqi Shiites makes sense, and so evidence for that is hardly a surprise. Iran arming Iraqi Sunni insurgents makes no good sense, so evidence of it would be a surprise.
I note that you haven't offered any yet.
"your "faith" that reality had to be the way you desired it to be."
Again, that isn't Empiricism which is what asking for evidence of claim is. Obviously if reality had to be the way I desired it to be Iran would be a land of peace, freedom and goodwill to all, Iraq would be a flowering garden and the US military would pack their bags from around the world and go home to perform some productive labour. Unfortunately this isn't the case.
Out of interest, do you join those calling for the nuclear elimination of Iran or do you condemn them?
Posted by: Rafar at June 08, 2007 08:21 AM (kkgmI)
22
By the way, why 38 years of context?
Think about it for a while. Your mind needs the exercise. It involves Paris.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 08, 2007 02:42 PM (Sr5ZD)
23
"Think about it for a while."
Sorry, I thought that it was perfectly obvious that I was suggesting that you needed to extend your context. In future I will ensure that when I address you I write as clearly and simply as possible.
Posted by: Rafar at June 09, 2007 02:52 AM (EX6eK)
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Ahmadinejad Claims Iran's Nuclear Drive Can't be Stopped
Nuclear chicken, anyone?
Iran's nuclear program cannot be stopped, and any Western attempt to force a halt to uranium enrichment would be like playing "with the lion's tail," President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Tuesday.
In Berlin, Germany's foreign minister reported no progress in talks with Iran's chief nuclear negotiator ahead of the Group of Eight summit. And with the U.N. Security Council preparing to debate a third set of sanctions for Tehran's refusal to suspend enrichment, Britain raised the possibility of adding curbs on oil and gas investment to the limited measures against individuals and companies involved in Iran's nuclear and weapons programs.
"We advise them to give up stubbornness and childish games," Ahmadinejad said at a news conference. "Some say Iran is like a lion. It's seated quietly in a corner. We advise them not to play with the lion's tail."
Added Ahmadinejad: "It is too late to stop the progress of Iran."
In Washington, State Department Spokesman Sean McCormack responded: "It isn't."
McCormack is of course referring to diplomatic efforts by the United States and other nations in the international community to coax Iran into giving up their suspected nuclear weapons program.
Like any nuclear weapons program, the Iranian nuclear weapons program must have multiple minimum components, those being the ability to acquire raw uranium ore, the ability and facilities to process and enrich the uranium to "weapons grade," the ability to develop a warhead, and the ability to deliver a warhead.
Iran has as many as 10 functioning uranium mines according to GlobalSecurity.Org, so acquiring the raw uranium ore has never been an issue. Iran also has at least 11 known facilities to process and enrich their raw ores, with Natanz and Bushehr perhaps being the most well known. Iran is also developing a parallel plutonium-based program out of Arak.
As for the warheads, the U.N. nuclear watchdog agency (IAEA) stated that they were aware that Iran has acquired documents and drawings on the black market, and there has been speculation that Iran may have acquired dual-use components from western countries in the 1990s, as well as warhead technology from North Korea.
Iran is said to have developed long-range missiles such as the claimed Fajr-3 with multiple independently targetable reentry vehicle (MIRV) capability typically used only with nuclear warheads, and the proven Shahab-3, which can carry a singe conventional, chemical, biological, or nuclear warhead.
Based upon this information, it seems Iran has the technical capability to build a viable nuclear weapons threat. Based upon the continued threats and rhetoric issued from Iran through President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Iran also has the political will and strategic goal of becoming a nuclear power.
Western nations that feel threatened by Iran's apparent drive for nuclear weapons essentially have three options:
- Let Iran continue to develop their nuclear program and hope they are not developing a nuclear weapons program as well;
- Attempt to convince Iran not to develop a nuclear through political and economic pressures and incentives;
- Take covert and overt intelligence and military operations to undermine or remove Iran's nuclear capabilities.
We are well past the point where any reasonable nation can assume that Iran is not attempting to develop a nuclear weapons program. They have been caught with warhead plans by U.N. inspectors, and have developed nuclear-capable delivery systems.
The present efforts are primarily diplomatic and economic in nature, hoping to force Iran to the bargaining table, but as Ahmadinejad's most recent threats and rhetoric attest, they have no intention of slowing nuclear development. If they cannot be persuaded to stop their nuclear program through peaceable means, that leaves only the use of intelligence and military forces.
There has been some speculation and a few indications that covert efforts are already underway, some mirroring efforts used against the Soviet Union in the Cold War, such as providing flawed plans through double agents and spies, and at least one top Iranian nuclear scientist has died within the past year.
These covert efforts, however, can at best slow the Iranian nuclear program. There is no way to be sure that any compromised systems will go undiscovered and uncorrected, and the accumulated knowledge is difficult to eradicate with the death of a few occasional scientists, even if they are prominent.
Sadly, with continued defiance by Iran's government and their apparent belief that nuclear capability is in their nation's best interests, a military solution may yet prove that Iran's nuclear drive can indeed be stopped through force of arms.
The IAF Air Force has 25 F-15I "Ra'am" and 102 F-16I "Sufa" long-range strike fighters with the capability of hitting hardened targets with "bunker-buster" bombs in Iran without refueling. If they can arrange in-air refueling, there are no potential targets in Iran out of range.
There seems to be a common misconception that our ground combat in Iraq precludes a strike on Iran if one is warranted, but that supposition has no basis at all in reality. The U.S. assets available for a strike on Iranian nuclear facilities are literally too numerous to name. While the U.S. military's ground forces are heavily involved in Iraq and Afghanistan, U.S. Air Force and Naval units are virtually free for involvement.
At least three U.S. carrier strike groups carrying more than 240 aircraft are thought to be within range of Iran, and an unknown number of submarine and surface fleet vessels armed with cruise missiles are within range of Iran or can be relatively stealthily deployed to the region.
With mid-air refueling capabilities, the U.S. Air Force fleet of B-1B, B-2, and B-52 bombers and the U.S. strike fighter fleet of F15s, F-16s, and F-117 and F-22 stealth fighters can bring to bear literally thousands of precision-guided bombs if needed in single or multiple sorties.
Should it be determined that the military strike is warranted, precedent indicates that President Bush does not need Congressional approval for such a strike. All U.S. Presidents of the past three decades (yes, even Jimmy Carter) have launched military operations without needing or seeking congressional approval, from Carter's botched attempt to rescue U.S. hostages in Iran, to Reagan's strikes on Libya and Grenada, to Bush 41's invasion of Panama, and Clinton's strikes on Iraq, Kosovo, Afghanistan and Sudan.
There is some debate over whether such air strikes by U.S. and Israeli aircraft could destroy or significantly damage Iran's nuclear capability. Even with the recent purchase of Soviet anti-aircraft missile systems, Iran's anti-aircraft capability is second-rate, their aging and obsolete Air Force would probably never get off the ground, so their ability to successfully oppose such a strike through is very unlikely.
I would posit that both the Israeli and the U.S. military have munitions capable of destroying or severely damaging Iranian nuclear sites (even hardened underground bunkers), if those sites can be accurately identified. The attacks would only be likely to fail if the targets cannot accurately be identified and targeted.
The obvious downside of any attack by Israel or the United States upon Iranian nuclear facilities is the very real possibility, if not probability, of an Iranian counterattack by both conventional and unconventional forces.
Iran would certainly target U.S. Navy ships in the Persian Gulf in the wake of any attack on Iran, and may also possibly target civilian shipping as well. Some experts anticipate that Iran may also attempt to invade southern Iraq in retaliation. If such an attack takes place, out-gunned and out-manned British forces are severely under threat, and there is a distinct possibility that units could be overrun before coalition airpower annihilated Iranian conventional forces. Iran may also fire missiles at U.S. bases and Iraqi cities. Shia militias loyal to Iran would be directed to rise up against U.S. forces in Iraq, and the resulting battles would potentially be very bloody. Several dozen to several hundred U.S. soldiers could become fatalities, and no doubt thousands of Shia militiamen and civilians would probably perish on the other side.
Hamas, Hezbollah, and other terrorist groups would probably fire barrages of rockets into Israeli civilian populations, and there is some concern--I'm not sure how serious to take these--that Syria would attack and attempt to retake the Goal Heights, with the predictable disastrous results to Syrian forces.
There is also a credible threat of Hezbollah-directed terrorist attacks again U.S. interests worldwide and possibly in the United States as a result.
Make no mistake: Iran has the capability to hit back in retaliation after their nuclear facilities are struck, and depending on how these attacks are executed in Iraq, Israel, the united States and elsewhere, casualties could be significant.
What the U.S government, the Israeli's, and perhaps other western and Middle Eastern powers have to take into account is whether or not the threatened Iranian retaliation is a greater threat that the Iranian nuclear program. If Iran is allowed to develop nuclear weapons and their continuous threats are sincere and not just rhetoric, then quite literally, millions of lives are at risk. The result of attempting to use military force to destroy Iran's nuclear program could result in the deaths of thousands. While both options could be avoided by an internal revolt in Iran or a sudden change of course by their government, I fear this bloody drama will be played out by January of 2008, one way, or the other.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
"...to Reagan's strikes on Libya and Grenada, to Bush 41's invasion of Panama, and Clinton's strikes on Iraq, Kosovo, Afghanistan and Sudan."
What a roll call of honor! What a collection of veritable military superpowers the US has gallantly prevailed over in recent decades! These victories surely rank up there with Iwo Jima and Midway, D-Day and the Battle of the Bulge!
Posted by: Max at June 06, 2007 11:20 AM (VRb5p)
2
In one word YES
"Sadly, with continued defiance by Iran's government and their apparent belief that nuclear capability is in their nation's best interests, a military solution may yet prove that Iran's nuclear drive can indeed be stopped through force of arms."
yes
"The U.S. assets available for a strike on Iranian nuclear facilities are literally too numerous to name."
YES
"President Bush does not need Congressional approval for such a strike"
YES!!!!
"Israeli and the U.S. military have munitions capable of destroying or severely damaging Iranian nuclear sites (even hardened underground bunkers), if those sites can be accurately identified."
bunker-buster nukes ACE IN THE HOLE
"I fear this bloody drama will be played out by January of 2008, one way, or the other."
nobody wants war LESS than George W Bush and the GOP. Only, the democraps and lieberals undermine at every turn,,, do they WANT war????
Posted by: Karl at June 06, 2007 11:25 AM (5zEhw)
3
Karl,
It seems that the thought of all this destruction being unleashed is getting you terribly excited.
You really should get out more, maybe meet some girls?
Posted by: Max at June 06, 2007 11:31 AM (VRb5p)
4
"... and any Western attempt to force a halt to uranium enrichment would be like playing "with the lion's tail, ...."
Well, not "any". There are plausible attempts to force a halt which would be like "blowing the lion's head off."
Posted by: Dusty at June 06, 2007 11:34 AM (GJLeQ)
5
I know FAR more about girls than you ever will
is it time for your FOOT BATH hippy??? dont forget the sented salts
Posted by: Karl at June 06, 2007 11:48 AM (5zEhw)
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Max, Karl:
Let's bring this down a notch and stay on topic, please.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 06, 2007 11:57 AM (9y6qg)
7
The Iranian leader, Mr "Im-a-nut-job" suffers from the inability to look left and right....
- We've had him flanked for a few years now.
Posted by: LisaV (aka "Talismen - Lady Crusader against jihad) at June 06, 2007 12:13 PM (hosSA)
8
Thousands of centrifuges require a lot of power to run.
A) Kill the power lines and power generation station(s), and you silence the centrifuges.
B) Reapply Tomahawks as needed.
Just saying...
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 06, 2007 12:29 PM (Sr5ZD)
9
Karl,
Aren't you missing prayer time?
East is that way --->
Come down out of the clouds, dude.
Posted by: LisaV at June 06, 2007 01:36 PM (hosSA)
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KarlsJr.,
It is nice to be young and idealistic. It is also nice to not know how bad people are and the true nature of religion and other groups that will do anything to push their agenda and harm their fellow man. But the reality of the world is very much different than what you seemd to understand.
Weather you like it or not, we are at war with Islam. Not radical Islam. Not Iraq or any other specfic country. The fact ofthe manner is that Islam has decided to raise its ugly face and send us back to the dark ages or beyond. Not any one specfic individual made this decision. Nor did any specfic group wake up and decide that they were going to take over the world. Instead, we are in the midst of a global confrontation that seems to have started about 100 years ago and has been fueled by stupid policy decisions of several countries and most recently the US. All presidents are equally guilty wheather Democratic or Republican. Certainly GB is an idiot and totally incompetent, but the same can be said for Carter, Clinton, etc.
The problem is that people like you can not seem to understand that this confrontation is in place and that our country and much of western civilization is in jeopardy. Iran is becoming much of a problem now when we eliminate them and we will then we will be weaker and have another group that we will have to deal with.
No amount of good will or good intentions will previal. They may delay the ulitmate, but we are at some point going to have to go to war with a religion and many people will die. The alternative is to give up our way of life and endorse the religion and all the horror it brings to the table. I would be saying this if it were Christianity which I find equally as bad.
Posted by: David Caskey,MD at June 06, 2007 01:45 PM (G5i3t)
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Dr, Caskey,
I think Karls Jr is a put-on.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 06, 2007 02:46 PM (kxecL)
12
"The alternative is to give up our way of life and endorse the religion and all the horror it brings to the table."
I still don't get how step (2) works in this scenario;
1) Iran builds nuclear weapons.
2) ?????
3) Southern Baptists hurl their Bibles to the floor and start Burka-ing up.
Could you explain how (2) works for me please?
Posted by: Rafar at June 07, 2007 06:27 AM (kkgmI)
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June 05, 2007
The War Lovers
Experts continue to state that anti-war politicians will spill more blood, not less, in the Middle East.
For months, professional journalists, combat soldiers, defense experts, intelligence analysts, regional governments, and bloggers have been warning about the consequences of the disastrous retreat from Iraqi being orchestrated by the radicalized left wing of the Democratic Party.
Writing in WSJ's OpinionJournal today, Dan Senor ties it all together, showing through the words of experts that the precipitous headlong retreat favored by so many Democrats will only result in American combat forces returning to the region in greater numbers and facing a far more bloody and destabilized Middle East dubbed "Iraq Plus."
Consider Brent Scowcroft, dean of the Realist School, who openly opposed the war from the outset and was a lead skeptic of the president's democracy-building agenda. In a recent Financial Times interview, he succinctly summed up the implication of withdrawal: "The costs of staying are visible; the costs of getting out are almost never discussed. If we get out before Iraq is stable, the entire Middle East region might start to resemble Iraq today. Getting out is not a solution."
And here is retired Marine Gen. Anthony Zinni, former Centcom Commander and a vociferous critic of the what he sees as the administration's naive and one-sided policy in Iraq and the broader Middle East: "When we are in Iraq we are in many ways containing the violence. If we back off we give it more room to breathe, and it may metastasize in some way and become a regional problem. We don't have to be there at the same force level, but it is a five- to seven-year process to get any reasonable stability in Iraq."
A number of Iraq's Sunni Arab neighbors also opposed the war as well as the U.S. push for liberalizing the region's authoritarian governments. Yet they now backchannel the same two priorities to Washington: Do not let Iran acquire nukes, and do not withdraw from Iraq.
A senior Gulf Cooperation Council official told me that "If America leaves Iraq, America will have to return. Soon. It will not be a clean break. It will not be a permanent goodbye. And by the time America returns, we will have all been drawn in. America will have to stabilize more than just Iraq. The warfare will have spread to other countries, governments will be overthrown. America's military is barely holding on in Iraq today. How will it stabilize 'Iraq Plus'?" (Iraq Plus is the term that some leaders in Arab capitals use to describe the region following a U.S. withdrawal.)
Among the people on Iraqi soil cited by Senor is NY Times Bureau Chief John Burns, who has made comments equating an American pullout with the onset of a regional conflict and violence without limits.
CNN's Michael Ware and Kyra Phillips have echoed similar sentiments, saying a U.S. pullout "would be a disaster."
U.S. secretary of Defense Robert Gates is even more blunt:
U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates on Wednesday warned that limiting troops' activities in Iraq and withdrawing from Baghdad could lead to "ethnic cleansing" in the capital and elsewhere in the country.
Gates' comment followed a proposal from Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid to end most spending on the Iraq war in 2008, limiting it to targeted operations against al Qaeda, training for Iraqi troops and U.S. force protection.
"One real possibility is if we abandon some of these areas and withdraw into the countryside or whatever to do these targeted missions that you could have a fairly significant ethnic cleansing inside Baghdad and in Iraq more broadly," Gates said.
The general premises of anti-war groups is that they wants a U.S. military pullout in Iraq seem based upon the following primary arguments:
- There were no WMDs/the reasons for the War were a lie (the playground mentality "I want a 'do-over'" argument).
- The U.S. military is causing tremendous civilian casualties in Iraq (the "remove the babykillers and the bloodshed will stop" argument).
- Leaving American troops in Iraq without a firm withdrawal date with only allow the various factions to continue fighting without coming to a political solution (the "they're all savages until we disappear and theyÂ’ll be forced to negotiate with each other" argument).
- The various Sunni, Shia and Kurdish factions are going to slaughter each other anyway, so why place American troops in the middle where they can be killed as well (the "they're all savages, let them die/kill each other" argument)
Obviously, there are variations of those major themes, but those are their general arguments.
The common failure of all of these arguments is the purposeful refusal to recognize what many (if not most) experts think will happen in the wake of the arbitrary and precipitous U.S. withdrawal, which are those predictions of a much wider regional war, a phenomenal increase in civilian casualties, the possible attempted genocide of some factions, and the re-entry of the U.S. military into the same region under far worse conditions and the threat of far greater casualties.
Anti-war politicians claim that they want to stop the war in Iraq, but the policies to which they subscribe are akin to throwing water on a grease fire. They would spread the flames of war, and create far more deaths.
Anti-war? No, it is a far wider war they will cause.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
See, this is why I'm not a Democrat.
I'm still against this war, but not for any of the reasons given. If you can stand it one more time, this is why we should pull out, and this is the opinion of a minority of one:
If we're not going to commit ourselves to this fight - and by that I mean more troops, raise taxes and be honest about how much it will cost and how long we'll be there - then don't do this half-a**ed. I don't want any American to be killed because this administration doesn't trust us enough to do what needs to be done and tell us the truth.
And as blithely as you curse the Democrats, don't forget to put the initial blame where it belongs - on the Bush administration. They screwed up the war and the occupation so badly that there are no decent alternatives. Everything looks bad thanks to their criminal incompetence.
There's plenty of blood to go around.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 05, 2007 12:50 PM (kxecL)
2
David
I am not certain that the war was so screwed up, but certainly the occupation was fouled up from the beginning.
Hindsight being what it is (perfect, of course), setting up something more like Turkey's government might well have been much more feasible than trying to create a western-style democracy in a culture better suited to dark ages styles of government. Is it too late for that solution? I have no idea. I do know that any solution will have terrible aspects for Iraqis--which is too bad.
I am 100% in agreement that if we (the USA) are not willing to do what it takes to WIN this fight then we should pull out and let the savages kill each other all day long. Like Vietnam, where we also tried to fight a limited war, the killers in Iraq will just wait us out until we tire. Intead of doing what it takes to win --smashing the sources of money, personnel and weapons to the various factions in Iraq, putting enough troops in to quell the insurgency, jailing domestic traitors who publish classified information, executing unlawful combatants after vigorous interrorgation, etc.--we fight a politically correct war watched over by opponents to ensure that nothing effective is accomplished.
So maybe the Democrats are right; pull out now and let the bloodshed begin. Heck, even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and again. Blame the ethnic cleaning/genocide on Bush & co while hand-wringing in impotence. Let the self-interest of the Iraq government decide if they are to become an Iranian puppet or be a sovereign nation. Adhere to the old philosophy "give them what they (Iraqis and Democrats) want, good and hard".
Posted by: iconoclast at June 05, 2007 02:22 PM (TzLpv)
3
iconoclast,
There are no good answers here. None.
If we stay we'll be bled to death, our soldiers a target while we borrow more and more money from the Chinese.
If we leave we'll create a power vacuum that Iran will most likely fill after a lot of internal bloodshed.
It all sucks.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 05, 2007 02:47 PM (kxecL)
4
The left is never happy until fatalities are measured in the millions.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 05, 2007 02:51 PM (Sr5ZD)
5
PA
The "new" left (for those of us old enough to remember the old socialists) haven't enough consistency to be accused of such a sentiment. Besides power, the only overarching characteristic I can see to the entire spectrum is self-delusion and a sort of comic book/harlequin romance world philosophy. How else can one explain the support leftist feminists (yeah, redundant I know) give to islamic fundamentalists?
I have no idea whatsoever how to communicate with such people.
Posted by: iconoclast at June 05, 2007 03:38 PM (TzLpv)
6
David
Agree, it all sucks. So what do? It seems to me that predicating all future action on its benefit to the USA first and the Anglosphere second (with the rest of the world a distant third) makes the most sense to me.
Assume immiment withdrawal from Iraq, resulting ethnic cleansing, and increased Iranian influence over events in Iraq. Assume critical need to keep oil flowing to the West and fairly friendly governments in some parts of the ME. Assume continued acts of war by Iran against the USA and Israel. Assume continued growth of fanatic Islam in Europe, ME, and Asia.
What should be done? Accept gradual dhimmitude? lance the core of the cancer? wait out the storm? attempt to buy them off while corrupting them with our culture?
beats me. Maybe there never is an end to this--the fight for liberty and tolerance against tyranny and oppression. And we have to win all the wars, while they (the enemy) only has to win one.
I do think that Bush's sentiments were correct--democratic regimes are peaceful regimes, while totalitarian dictatorships are warlike, so start inserting democracy into these totalitarian countries. But he should have studied the USA (and MacArthur's) approach to Japan a lot more closely. But he did not.
Posted by: iconoclast at June 05, 2007 03:54 PM (TzLpv)
7
Here is my idea on the underlying problem we have had in Iraq. Bush has been trying to fight this war totally half assed, just like David says. On one hand he wants to stabilize Iraq, on the other he wants to please everyone. We need to fight to WIN! Mediocrity, in war, is a horrible thing. Our boys can kick ass like no other, lets let them do it.
Posted by: jbiccum at June 05, 2007 08:19 PM (Rd4s4)
8
I have no idea whatsoever how to communicate with such people.
Tasers and cattle prods.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 05, 2007 08:47 PM (Sr5ZD)
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Now were MAKING PROGRESS
"The left is never happy until fatalities are measured in the millions."
YESS!!!!!! read it a second time and thikn it over fellas can you deny the TRUTH
"We need to fight to WIN!"
AGREED!!!
Posted by: Karl at June 06, 2007 12:04 AM (5zEhw)
10
Karl: I can only imagine your post was a joke.
With regards to having a government the same as Turkey. You forget one thing. Ataturk brought Turkey kicking and screaming into the 20th century, and it took years. No outsider could have done it.
I would suggest that one of th major problems with the Iraq aftermath is that the Arabists took hold of the policy. Why else would they allow Sharia to be the law of the land.
The problem I have with the anti-war types is that most of them rely upon lies and deception to support their positions. Karl's post is a good example.
Posted by: davod at June 06, 2007 05:24 PM (RdotW)
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The Sliding War
According to professional media organizations and politicians, this is only
factional fighting:
Hamas and Fatah forces fought a major gun battle on Tuesday in the Gaza Strip near the Karni commercial crossing, the most serious flare-up in factional fighting in two weeks.
An officer with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas's Presidential Guard said a "large number" of Hamas fighters attacked a key Presidential Guard position near the crossing, wounding at least one guard member.
The Presidential Guard officer said the Hamas fighters attempted to infiltrate the position but were pushed back by the Presidential Guard, a Fatah-dominated force which receives U.S. backing.
Hamas, which leads a Palestinian unity government with Abbas's Fatah faction, confirmed the nearly three-hour-long gun battle near Karni but said the Presidential Guard initiated the exchange.
According to Global Security, there are five recognized criteria for a civil war:
civil war: A war between factions of the same country; there are
five criteria for international recognition of this status: the
contestants must control territory, have a functioning government,
enjoy some foreign recognition, have identifiable regular armed
forces, and engage in major military operations.
- Both Hamas and Fatah control territory.
- Both Hamas and Fatah have their own political organizations and function (dysfunction) as part of a recognized government.
- both enjoy some foreign recognition via support from governments such as ours (Fatah) and Iran (Hamas).
- both have identifiable and mostly uniformed armed forces.
- both have engaged and continue to engage in major military operations.
By this definition (and others), the Palestinian Civil War in Gaza is clearly underway, and has been for some time.
A supermajority of the world media organizations refuse to recognize this conflict as the civil war that it is.
Instead, we consistently see accounts that the factions in Gaza are almost in, sliding into, on the brink of, and verging on being in a civil war, but they aren't there quite yet... and have been for over a year.
A few examples:
Abbas acts to halt slide into civil war in Gaza. The U.K. Guardian, May 22, 2006.
Political Violence in Gaza Sparks Fears of Civil War. NPR May 24, 2006.
Gaza sliding into civil war. The U.K. Guardian, October 11, 2006.
Fighting in Gaza Sparks Fears of Civil War. NPR December 17, 2006.
Gaza on brink of civil war as cleric is killed. The U.K. Telegraph, January 8, 2007.
Gaza on brink of civil war. Canada.com, January 29, 2007.
The march toward civil war. The Boston Globe via the International Herald Tribune, February 12, 2007.
Gaza on brink of civil war. The (U.K.?) Times via the Australian, May 17, 2007.
A last chance to avert civil war in Palestine. The U.K. Independent, June 5, 2007.
Abbas: Palestinians verging on civil war. Boston.com, June 5, 2007.
The war in Iraq is widely described in the world's professional media organizations as a "civil war," even though it clearly fails to satisfy the five criteria noted for international recognition as cited by Global Security above, having no formal armies, no functioning governments, nor major battles, instead revolving around kidnappings, bombing, and other random violence.
The Gaza Civil War, on the other hand, satisfies all five criteria for a civil war, and has met these criteria for roughly a year.
Why does the media refuse to recognize the conflict between Hamas and Fatah for the civil war that it is?
I have no easy answers for that question, but is a question that deserves an answer.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
Why does the media refuse to recognize the conflict between Hamas and Fatah for the civil war that it is? Because the liberal media wants the two organizations to make kissy-face so everyone is happy.
Posted by: howard_coward at June 05, 2007 12:22 PM (VeZBn)
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"Hamas, which leads a Palestinian unity government with Abbas's Fatah faction..."
Maybe they ought to look up the definition of "unity" too...
Posted by: Ignorance is Bliss at June 05, 2007 12:35 PM (qzCtA)
3
The meme is at least as old as Viet Nam. Indeed that conflict was a civil war by these criteria but it was not merely that, as it was also, I would say primarily, a proxy war between the US and Chinese/Russian communists. The domestic Left could and did nakedly support the other side. Even our home-baked nutcases have SOME difficulty cheering for jihad, though that reticence is eroding. In any event, simply because a conflict IS definable as a civil war does not mean that one victor is not legitimately preferable to another nor that outside intervention is taboo. After all, our own Revolution was first, a civil war. Viet Nam was a civil war that we COULD have and SHOULD have won, for the sake of the locals, ourselves and the world at large. Likewise Iraq. If Iran collapses into a civil war, I hope we have the courage and intelligence to intervene on the more liberal side, if such appears. But this vapid notion with, apparently, appeal on Left and Right seems to supercede that for the near future. To our detriment.
Posted by: megapotamus at June 05, 2007 12:37 PM (LF+qW)
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The answer is: so as to give Hamas time to gain complete power so they can then turn on the US imperialistic proxy Israel, who in the media's eyes deserves a beating. Then no one will report that Iran has sent troops to the West Bank and Gaza. Once the attack on Israel proper begins and Israeli civilians are massacred after being overrun the world media will wring their hands and cry how did this happen?
Posted by: JCEE at June 05, 2007 12:50 PM (M0t7U)
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JCEE.
No, they won't.
The reason for the battle of the title--is it a civil war or not--is the presumption that the US cannot win and thus should not be in somebody else's civil war. Therefore, the left wants to win the label fight, since, if it's a civil war in Iraq, we have to come home instantly.
Posted by: Richard Aubrey at June 05, 2007 01:11 PM (aQg5A)
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Three Words: Can't. Blame. Bush.
Posted by: edh at June 05, 2007 01:37 PM (V+L+y)
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If Iran collapses into a civil war, I hope we have the courage and intelligence to intervene...
I usually try not to characterize comments, but in this case I'll make an exception.
megapotamus,
This is one of the most bone-headed things I've read on this or any other blog.
If you want to unify Iranians against the US, that's how you do it. Right now we have a chance that more moderate, pro-west elements in Iran will win power over the mullahs. But if you want to put the boot to that chance, you've outlined the perfect way to do it.
In fact, that's so wrong that I suspect you might actually work for the Bush administration.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 05, 2007 02:11 PM (kxecL)
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"Right now we have a chance that more moderate, pro-west elements in Iran will win power over the mullahs."
I've been hearing that for nearly 30 years now.
The problem with that statement is that for the past 30 years, its been the Mullahs that have controlled the schools and the textbooks and the media, not the more moderate pro-west elements. And what that means is that on the whole, Iran isn't becoming more moderate, but rather more radical. Sure, there is a wonderful remenent population of educated pro-Western middle class Iranians who are great people and who would make great allies if they are anything like the many exiles living outside of Iran. But if there is anything we have learned over the last 30 years, its that they have no real power. And, they are a vanishing minority, because the Mullahs control the memetic heights so thier children on the whole are slightly more radical than thier parents are each passing year. We see the same thing going on in Palestine. As soon as the terrorists gained control of the school system (with the help of our own dear Clinton), all near term hope of peace was lost.
So, in the exceedingly unlikely event that the pro-Western, rational, democratic, middle class faction finally does crack and fight back against the Mullahs, what do you propose? Letting that one last bastion of moderation in Iran get slaughtered, so Amadinejihad can have his vision of a pure Islamic state to martyr for Allah?
Posted by: celebrim at June 05, 2007 02:25 PM (Qnlt+)
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Because the MSM are Bush deranged anti-semites. They hate America and they hate Jews and they hate Israel.
Posted by: Paul A'Barge at June 05, 2007 02:37 PM (T3gfS)
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celebrim,
I don't know where you're getting your information, but what I'm reading says that things like satellite TV and the Internet are creating a pro-western faction among the best educated, the ones most likely to oppose the mullahs. The people are getting tired of the iron fist and, I hope, will change this government through politics rather than war and that takes time.
30 years? We're talking about a part of the world that still carries a grudge over things that happened in the Sixth Century.
30 years is a blink in time. We're still feeling the waves kicked off by installing the Shah. We have to start thinking longer term if we're going to prevail in the MidEast.
But if civil war broke out, the most idiotic thing we could do would be to intervene. I'm not saying we couldn't quietly support a group, but if we moved in militarily, it would do nothing but unite Iranians against us.
That's what I'm reading.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 05, 2007 02:39 PM (kxecL)
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"I usually try not to characterize comments, but in this case I'll make an exception."
Ditto.
David Terrenoire,
Rad your own post, apply it to yourself, and try not to be a condescending, arrogant, holier-(and-more-intelligent-)than-thou, reading-the-lefty-talking-points know-it-all.
celebrim nailed it. "Right now" meaning "about the entire lifetime of the average person, or longer" is not a useful definition for most things, especially not political things.
Posted by: Deoxy at June 05, 2007 02:44 PM (THlKl)
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I think the Iran question is quite obviously solving itself,with the inept, corrupt Mullahs driving it into the ground. If Ahamijade-whack-job doesn't manage to trigger an all out war over nukes, a bus strike or a spike in tomato prices will cause its downfall. Unfortunately it will mean a blood bath for the Iranians.
Posted by: gk at June 05, 2007 03:00 PM (ULKAN)
13
David
The people are getting tired of the iron fist and, I hope, will change this government through politics rather than war and that takes time.
That sentiment, while nice and very politically correct, has nothing to do with how "moderates" will regain power in Iran. The mullahs (and communists, etc., etc.) know that as long as they are willing to imprison/torture/kill dissidents (and their families) that the moderates will cringe/hide/emigrate. Unless the moderates are willing to fight to the death for that political power, they will never achieve it.
In the meantime, how long does the civilized world have to put up with acts of war by this regime? Another 30 years? 60 years?
And no, we are not feeling waves resulting from installation of the Shah--we are feeling waves resulting from abandoning him in favor of these dark ages fanatics currently running the country. Shall we wait long enough for them to get their nukes built and on their way to Israel? Europe? Russia? USA?
Posted by: iconoclast at June 05, 2007 03:01 PM (TzLpv)
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...condescending, arrogant, holier-(and-more-intelligent-)than-thou, reading-the-lefty-talking-points know-it-all.
Anything specific you'd like me to address, Deoxy, or is calling me names the best all you want to do? Because I don't lose sleep over anonymous commenters on a blog not liking me.
Really, I'm OK with that.
(Now
that was a condescending, arrogant post and I can do that all day if that's what you want. But if you'd rather talk about our policy in the MidEast, I'd much rather do that. Your call.)
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 05, 2007 03:03 PM (kxecL)
15
iconoclast,
When I was in college I knew Iranian students here who lived in fear of Savak, the Shah's secret police.
The Shah sowed the seeds of the revolution by brutally ruling Iran. The troubles in Iran did not begin in 1979.
But are you really proposing we go to war with Iran right now? Because the military has its hands full with a much smaller country. I don't think it's wise to make threats we can't back up.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 05, 2007 03:08 PM (kxecL)
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"30 years is a blink in time. We're still feeling the waves kicked off by installing the Shah. We have to start thinking longer term if we're going to prevail in the MidEast."
I would suggest we think in terms of Half Lifes...
Posted by: Joel Mackey at June 05, 2007 03:53 PM (tGm4a)
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I would suggest we think in terms of Half Lifes...
Joel,
I love humor, the darker the better.
And that was mighty dark.
Thanks.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 05, 2007 04:00 PM (kxecL)
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megapotomus, I have to register a slight clarification. A "revolution", while similar, is a distinctly different sort of animal from a "civil war". A civil war is fought between recognized factions of an existing government, each trying to achieve supremacy. A revolution is fought by an insurgency that has created its own opposition government.
Posted by: submandave at June 05, 2007 04:24 PM (lLS3Y)
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David
But are you really proposing we go to war with Iran right now? Because the military has its hands full with a much smaller country. I don't think it's wise to make threats we can't back up.
As far as I see it, we are at war with them right now. Or at least they are at war with us while we are trying very hard to ignore that fact and have been doing so for a number of years.
I think the military has its hands full doing nation-building--opposed violently by Iran, of course. War is another matter. I am just an arm-chair general and, of course, my opinion is highly relevant (yeah, right). But as you pointed out on another thread, either we fight this entire war or we bail. Fighting the entire war means ending the war being waged against us by Iran.
But the USA won't wage that war until after another attack on our country. Maybe we are just hoping for a mutual assured destruction between Iran and Israel...
Posted by: iconoclast at June 05, 2007 04:42 PM (TzLpv)
20
It doesn't matter what all these real smart people think, those three Carrier Battle Groups are not in the Persian Gulf for suntans.
We can cry all we want to about not being able to go to war against Iran. Iran is at war with us. Iran has been at war with us, Iran will be at war with us. The quicker everyone becomes aware of this, the quicker the war will end.
The plan seems to be for the Democrats to get in the way all they can, let George Bush handle it and then screech loudly about what an awful guy he is.
Posted by: Peter at June 06, 2007 02:48 AM (A5s0y)
21
iconoclast and Peter,
I don't know how old either of you are, or if you've ever been in the service, but if either of you are under 30 I expect you to sign up and help relieve these guys in Iraq. Because those on their third and fourth tours are getting a little tired fighting these neocon wars for the rest of us.
No, this isn't a sarcastic chickenhawk taunt. I'm dead serious. If you think we're at war with Iran, go find the nearest recruiter because your country needs you.
And God help us if you're right.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 06, 2007 06:01 AM (tk0b2)
22
Mr. Darkearth, one derives by logic that you are proposing universal military service for the U.S. As a citizen, you want to insist certain people serve, specifically, it seems, people under 30 who speak in favor of responding militarily to the verbal and indirect war Iran is waging on us and on Israel. These persons to be drafted would be replacements for those who have volunteered for war fighting and who you say are getting a little tired fighting for the rest of us (your use of the word us here is strange here). Have I successfully expressed your idea? So one group of conservatives could rest while a non-volunteer force of other conservatives takes over the fighting for a while. As you say, you are dead serious that you want conservatives to involuntarily serve as war fighters because this is our war. The Iranian Islamists only wish to kill conservatives? But there are liberals in Israel as well as here, are there not? As a liberal, you derive nothing at all from the efforts of our military?
Posted by: Fred Beloit at June 06, 2007 09:22 AM (Z7x7c)
23
Fred,
No where will you find the words liberal or conservative in what I wrote.
No, what I was suggesting is simple: If we decide to engage Iran militarily, we'll need many more troops than we have right now.
This is serious business. If you think we're in a mess in Iraq, that will look like a picnic compared to Iran. Iraq has 27 million people. Iran has 67 million people.
Right now we don't have enough soldiers. This is from the Weekly Standard:
"Analysts outside the government are increasingly in agreement: Researchers at conservative think tanks like the American Enterprise Institute and the Heritage Foundation call for larger ground forces, as do thinkers at centrist and liberal organizations ... We would urge an immediate expansion toward a 750,000-person [from 500,000] Army. In any case, the consensus for a larger Army is about as complete as it could be. Except within the administration."
This is without fighting in Iran. So, what I'm saying is that if you believe we're at war with Iran, and this is only a prelude to ground combat then as an American, left or right, if you're of sound body and capable of service, now would be a very good time to enlist.
I don't happen to think war with Iran is the right thing or inevitable, and I pray I'm right about this.
So no, this has nothing to do with liberal or conservative, left or right. You are completely misreading my call to service.
For me, this is a policy issue, not a partisan one. My original position, and one I still hold, is that change can happen within Iran without our intervention but if we do intervene it will accomplish nothing except unify the Iranians against us. War is a last resort and I don't think we're there yet.
If you believe differently, I can respect that, but if you're right many more men will be called than we have now. And that's inevitable.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 06, 2007 10:53 AM (kxecL)
24
David, I think you completely misunderstand the essential nature of what I fear is a pending war with Iran. You seem to be operating on the premise that the conflict in Iran would necessarily mirror the conflict in Iraq, and nothing could be further from the truth.
While their support for JAM is certainly a thorn in our sides in Iraq, our primary beef with them is over their nuclear program. We have no intention, nor plans (to the best I can determine), nor need to involve the U.S. Army or Marine ground forces in any way whatsoever in confronting Iran.
Iran's nuclear targets (with the possible exception of personnel) are rigid, fixed targets. Iran's Air Force and air defenses are second if not third-rate.
If you've been watching our military deployments in the region, you'll note we have been slowly and significantly building up our air assets, and if our targetting is accurate, we should be able to destroy significant portions of their nuclear program, both above and below ground.
There are only two ways our ground-pounders will be involved as a result of an attack on Iran.
The first is if the Iranian's direct the JAM to attack American and British forces in Iraq. You may note the historical fact that while those battles can be quite intense, the are also typically very lopsided.
The conflict would not doubt create U.S. casualties, but it would also severely deplete the number of militia fighters available to al Sadr and other would be militia leaders.
There are some suggesting that Iran would launch an invasion of Iraq with their uniformed Army in retaliation for an attack on their nuclear facilities. Again, total U.S. air superiority would shred Iranian forces that have only the most basic of air defense systems, resulting in a huge loss of Iranian lives. The first Gulf War taught us what happens when a modern air force encounters mechanized infantry and armor without air defense. "Does the "Highway of Death" ring a bell?
I just happen to have posted in this
here. There are going to be no winners in a war with Iran, the only question is who is going to be the biggest loser. I would prefer it to be Iran instead of us and our allies.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 06, 2007 11:36 AM (9y6qg)
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Bob,
I read your latest post and I don't have any reason to doubt your analysis except I think you've drastically underestimated US casualties if this thing goes to boil. But overall, I agree with what you've said.
It's what happens afterward that gives me pause. I have the same pain in my gut that I had in the run-up to Iraq. Not that we wouldn't win a military conflict but that the aftermath would be unmanageable (or mismanaged). I wish I had been wrong about that, but I wasn't.
Maybe my hesitation comes from my not trusting Bush. I'll be the first to admit that if he told me the sky was blue I'd have to go outside to check. Maybe that's where this feeling comes from, I don't know.
But I do know that if we unify a nation of 67 million people against us, things are going to get really bad really fast.
I know some who read this blog doubt my sincerity or maybe even my patriotism, and that's their right. But believe me when I say that I hope I'm wrong about this.
Still, there's that twist in my gut that tells me things will spin out of control a lot faster here than they did in Iraq and that both of us may be horribly mistaken. Because there's always that possibility, too.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 06, 2007 12:02 PM (kxecL)
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