November 30, 2005
Massive Ammo Cache Found In Kirkuk
Via
Central Command:
Iraqi and U.S. forces have removed more than 4,200 mortar rounds from a major weapons cache found outside of an abandoned military base near the northern Iraqi city of Kirkuk Sunday.
The buried rounds were discovered by Iraqi Soldiers Sunday morning. The Soldiers removed about 800 mortar rounds before realizing that the cache was much larger than they originally thought. U.S. Soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division's 1st Brigade Combat Team were called in to help excavate the munitions and secure the area.
The ammunition was buried under concrete blocks with dirt mounded on top. All of the ammunition removed so far has come from one mound located in a field full of similar mounds. The explosives ordnance disposal team at the site expects to find more rounds as the search expands throughout the field.
I'll be interested to see if the shells are all conventional munitions in nature, or if perhaps there is something potentially more interesting in the mix.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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If there ARE chemical rounds found there, expect to have the report buried and dismissed. Just like earlier stories of chemical weapons that have been found in Iraq.
Posted by: reverse_vampyr at December 01, 2005 05:12 PM (Ns5kk)
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While it must have been difficut to find these munitions, I think the more difficult task will be to find reporting of this discovery in the MSM.......
4,200 mortar rounds!.... Move along, nothing to see here.
Posted by: abnjm at December 02, 2005 08:13 AM (orV9r)
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Defending the Long Gray Line
Blogger John in Carolina has been pressing
NY Times public editor
Byron Calame for a retraction for false claims made by Lucian Truscott IV attacking the United States Military Academy at West Point and the Cadet Corpsin an Op-Ed, "The Not-So-Long Gray Line.''
In the Op-Ed (now hidden behind the Wall of Irrelevance known as Times Select) Truscott IV claims:
There was a time when the Army did not have a problem retaining young leaders - men like Dwight Eisenhower, George Patton, George Marshall, Omar Bradley and my grandfather, Lucian K. Truscott Jr. Having endured the horrors of World War I trenches, these men did not run headlong out of the Army in the 1920's and 30's when nobody wanted to think of the military, much less pay for it. They had made a pact with each other and with their country, and all sides were going to keep it.
There was only one problem with Truscott IV's claim as noted by John in Carolina:
Eisenhower, Bradley and Truscott never served overseas during WWI; Marshall was in France as a staff officer; and only Patton saw combat. I don't know of any historian who's ever claimed the five future generals made any sort of pact with each other.
Faced with this easily verifiable falsehood, you would think that the Public Editor would print a retraction.
You would be wrong. John is now asking for your advice.
I'd start by first reading both posts linked above, and then drop Byron Calame a note.
Lying should not be called "figurative language," even in the New York Times.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Wow. That's a shame. Truscott was commander over my Guard unit when attached to 7th Army.
Posted by: RTO Trainer at November 30, 2005 09:19 PM (rVzXG)
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I'm not going to contact Calame. However, military people rarely speak figuratively about military matters. Everything to us is pretty much real. I've read the WWI trenches comment several times and each time it comes across that those mentioned actually experienced combat "in the trenches," not just in the WWI era (as would be a figurative implication.)
Secondly, what the hell is a figurative "pact?" Either these guys swore an oath (a pact) or they didn't. There's no such thing as a figurative pact. Because these officers may have shared experiences from which they drew a bond does mean they entered into a pact. That's literary hogwash intended to lead the reader to a predrawn conclusion. It's also something we in the military refer to as BS.
These "reporters" and "journalists" are suppose to be writing about facts. Fictionalists have license to speak figuratively. It's one or the other - either fiction or non-fiction. Pick a category and stick with it. If a confused journalist feels he/she must write in figurative language and metaphors, perhaps he/she should find a new calling. The job calls for writing the facts, not an interpretation. Leave that up to the readers.
Within those few sentences, Truscott rewrote history.
Posted by: Old Soldier at November 30, 2005 09:29 PM (9ABza)
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The best book I ever read about the US Army (WWI and WWII) is "At Ease, Stories I Tell to Friends" by Dwight D. Eisenhower. It should be required reading at all high schools.
Posted by: Tom T at December 01, 2005 06:31 AM (6krEN)
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"There was a time when the Army did not have a problem retaining young leaders"
This is also wrong. Between the wars you were thought to be a sucker to stay in the tiny peacetime army. Plenty of officers left because of the limited pay and opportunity for advancement. The world does not know the names of those who quit. The four named are justly honored for sticking it out.
Posted by: Locomotive Breath at December 01, 2005 12:59 PM (W7Snj)
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my grandfather actually fought in the trenches during ww-1, but as a lowly corporal. unlike these figurative generals with their figurative pacts he left the army after we won that war. he said something about not having to worry anymore about shaving close enough. mustard gas can be a bitch if your mask doesn't seal tight. gotta love those nco's and enlisted men.
Posted by: meangreeneinsc at December 02, 2005 03:25 AM (WB4NZ)
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Beware the Fordjahadeen!
Nancy Pelosi must be putting her finishing touches on her speech declaring that we should unilaterally
withdraw from Detroit.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Detroit is a lost cause.
Check out this link
Detroit
Mouse over the picture.
Posted by: tracelan at November 30, 2005 10:30 PM (ZlXVq)
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Pelosi - just another WHITE FLAG DEMOCRAT.
Posted by: Maggie at December 01, 2005 08:41 AM (QKXCW)
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Harry Reid's Intelligence Problem
I'm sure you've heard about this story:
Nevada Senator Harry Reid thinks Osama Bin Laden was killed in last month's earthquake in Pakistan.
Speaking Wednesday on News 4's Nevada News Makers, Reid says he was informed today that Bin Laden may have died in the October temblor.
"I heard today that he may have died in the earthquake that they had in Pakistan, seriously." Reid says that if that is the case, "that's good for the world."
Is Harry Reid is basing his comments on pure speculation? He wouldn't be the first if so, but that isn't what he said.
He stated, "I heard today that he may have died..."
If Senator Reid's source is from the intelligence community and was given to him in his role as a Senator, his intelligence clearance should be reviewed. If (and only if) he is guilty of providing national security informaiton to the press, Senator Reid should not only lose his clearance, but lose his Senate seat and possibly face criminal charges.
More at PJM.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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CY, it is impossible for Reid to have gained this info from intelligence. Remember? The Democrats claim they don't have intelligence!
Posted by: Old Soldier at November 30, 2005 09:35 PM (9ABza)
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There is another problem that is twofold. The world, especially the terrorists, will see him as a U.S. Politician so they will believe he has the intelligence. Perception is everything, just look at the WP crap that is still going on. If he did die, the intelligence just got "officially" leaked out. IF he didn't die it will be another blow to U.S. Intelligence / Politicians. either way he should have kept his mouth shut.
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 01, 2005 06:25 AM (BuYeH)
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I loved the title of your post "Harry Reid's intelligence problem" because my instant reaction is, "well, yes, he doesn't have any."
Posted by: Bookworm at December 01, 2005 10:18 PM (P0tcc)
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They Can't Stand The Competition
The
L.A. Times just cannot stand the fact that another news organization might push a myopic one-sided view of the War on Terror... at least one that conflicts with their own, myopic one-sided view, that is.
Jeff Goldstein responds as well as I ever could, so go read it over there.
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November 29, 2005
Because They Care So Much...
MoveOn.org cares so much about America troops that they...
wait for it...
can't even identify American troops.
But hey, they're getting better. This was actually their third attempt.
They originally tried this one:
This was their second choice:
Better luck next time, losers.
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I wouldn't expect them to recognive Brit-Pat uniforms...
Posted by: Josh at November 30, 2005 02:54 AM (f8ZUQ)
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That is really strange! The weird part is that they photoshopped pants onto the guy in shorts rather than just get some actual video of Americans.
I'm baffled as to why.
Posted by: Kevin at November 30, 2005 03:17 AM (Eq/i5)
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Is MoveOn based in the U.K.?
Posted by: Tom T at November 30, 2005 05:43 AM (ywZa8)
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What to you expect from White Flag Democrats!
Posted by: Maggie at November 30, 2005 08:19 AM (QKXCW)
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Moveon.org is based on a desperate cry for relevance.
Posted by: blamin at November 30, 2005 11:16 AM (gF/W/)
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Light-headed
Ahmadinejad saw a bright light, alright...Zzzap!
Via
LGF, and
straight to the rubber room:
Ahmadinejad said that someone present at the UN told him that a light surrounded him while he was delivering his speech to the General Assembly. The Iranian president added that he also sensed it.
"He said when you began with the words 'in the name of God,' I saw that you became surrounded by a light until the end [of the speech]," Ahmadinejad appears to say in the video. "I felt it myself, too. I felt that all of a sudden the atmosphere changed there, and for 27-28 minutes all the leaders did not blink."
Ahmadinejad adds that he is not exaggerating.
"I am not exaggerating when I say they did not blink; it's not an exaggeration, because I was looking," he says. "They were astonished as if a hand held them there and made them sit. It had opened their eyes and ears for the message of the Islamic Republic."
Baztab.com reported that during the meeting, Ayatollah Amoli said that "carrying out promises and restraining from fooling people" is the most important duty, presumably of officials . However, it is unclear whether that comment is made in reaction to the claim made by Ahmadinejad.
Critics And Skeptics
Iranian legislator Akbar Alami has questioned Ahmadinejad's apparent claims, saying that even Islam's holiest figures have never made such claims.
I'd suspect that Ahmadinejad's chances of dying a natural death just decreased tremendously...
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I guess that depends on what you consider 'natural.'
Posted by: lawhawk at November 29, 2005 04:27 PM (eppTH)
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It would be perfectly natural for me to put one of those Barrett .50's right between AHmadinejad's eyes. That natural enough?
Posted by: Old Soldier at November 29, 2005 06:11 PM (9ABza)
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Well, I
suppose whacking him with a 30-pound rifle
would work, but getting gray matter out of the scope mounts is
such a drag...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 29, 2005 06:15 PM (0fZB6)
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Yes, but think of the satisfaction you will be feeling as you clean those scope mounts - job well done!
Posted by: scgeecheegirl at November 29, 2005 09:24 PM (JyQt4)
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I wasn't talking about a butt stroke. I was talking about squeeeeezing that trigger at a range of about 2,000 yards. You, now, secure that sucker to a tree or something solid so he could see the muzzle flash and know the round is in flight. Either that or we could stump hang him. (I'd have to go off line to describe that method.)
Posted by: Old Soldier at November 29, 2005 09:53 PM (9ABza)
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Maybe next time he sees the light he will walk towards it, Old Soldier seems ready to help in that respect.
Posted by: Retired Navy at November 30, 2005 08:44 AM (Mv/2X)
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November 28, 2005
Richard Cohen's Alternate Reality
In Tuesday's
Washington Post, columnist Richard Cohen pens a column entitled
More Than a 'Mistake' on Iraq that is not only incorrect, but bordering on delusional.
Cohen states:
A line is forming outside the Iraq confessional. It consists of Democratic presidential aspirants -- where's Hillary? -- who voted for the war in Iraq and now concede that they made a "mistake." Former senator John Edwards did that Nov. 13 in a Post op-ed article, and Sen. Joseph Biden uttered the "M" word Sunday on "Meet the Press." "It was a mistake," said Biden. "It was a mistake," wrote Edwards. Yes and yes, says Cohen. But it is also a mistake to call it a mistake.
Both senators have a point, of course. They were told by the president and members of his War Cabinet -- Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld -- that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction. In particular, those three emphasized Iraq's purported nuclear weapons program. As late as August 2003, Condoleezza Rice was saying that she was "certain to this day that this regime was a threat, that it was pursuing a nuclear weapon, that it had biological and chemical weapons, that it had used them." To be charitable, she didn't know what she was talking about. [emphasis mine]
In denying that Saddam Hussein's Iraq had in the past pursued a nuclear weapons program, or that it had biological and chemical weapons and had used them, Richard Cohen shows that he is under the influence of the H5N1 strain of Bush Derangement Syndrome, and his grasp of reality is tenuous at best.
The U.K's Review of Intelligence on Weapons of Mass Destruction (PDF), otherwise known as the Butler Report, stated that :
a. It is accepted by all parties that Iraqi officials visited Niger in 1999.
b. The British government had intelligence from several different sources indicating that this visit was for the purpose of acquiring uranium. Since uranium constitutes almost three-quarters of Niger's exports, the intelligence was credible.
c. The evidence was not conclusive that Iraq actually purchased, as opposed to having sought, uranium, and the British government did not claim this.
The British government stands behind this information to this day, which pre-dates Joe Wilson's trip to Niger.
On January 1, 2003, The Telegraph reported:
United Nations weapons inspectors have uncovered evidence that proves Saddam Hussein is trying to develop an arsenal of nuclear weapons, The Telegraph can reveal. The discovery was made following spot checks last week on the homes of two Iraqi nuclear physicists in Baghdad.
Acting on information provided by Western intelligence, the UN inspection teams discovered a number of documents proving that Saddam is continuing with his attempts to develop nuclear weapons, contrary to his public declarations that Iraq is no longer interested in producing weapons of mass destruction.
Or perhaps Cohen should read Saddam, the Bomb and Me, from Mahdi Obedei, one of Saddam's nuclear scientists, in the New York Times:
Was Iraq a potential threat to the United States and the world? Threat is always a matter of perception, but our nuclear program could have been reinstituted at the snap of Saddam Hussein's fingers. The sanctions and the lucrative oil-for-food program had served as powerful deterrents, but world events - like Iran's current efforts to step up its nuclear ambitions - might well have changed the situation.
Iraqi scientists had the knowledge and the designs needed to jumpstart the program if necessary. And there is no question that we could have done so very quickly. In the late 1980's, we put together the most efficient covert nuclear program the world has ever seen. In about three years, we gained the ability to enrich uranium and nearly become a nuclear threat; we built an effective centrifuge from scratch, even though we started with no knowledge of centrifuge technology. Had Saddam Hussein ordered it and the world looked the other way, we might have shaved months if not years off our previous efforts.
The use of chemical weapons in the 1980-Iran Iraq War was well known:
The war was clearly going against Iraq by 1983, when Hussein ordered the use of chemical weapons against Iran. The first of 10 documented chemical attacks in the war was in August 1983 and caused hundreds of casualties, according to CIA sources. The largest documented attack was a February 1986 strike against al-Faw, where mustard gas and tabun may have affected up to 10,000 Iranians.
To this day, no one really knows how many other Iraqi chemical attacks went undocumented or how many Iranians died in them. Iranians call the survivors of the attacks "living martyrs," and the government in Tehran estimates that more than 60,000 soldiers were exposed to mustard gas and the nerve agents sarin and tabun.
The use of chemical weapons against Iraqi civilians was equally infamous.
For Richard Cohen to claim that administration officials "didn't know" what they were talking about when they stated Saddam "had biological and chemical weapons, that it had used them," is to rewrite history, severing all ties with reality and credibility.
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Posted by: reliapundit at November 29, 2005 01:54 AM (vV7sA)
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My guess is that he was referring to her certainty when he said that she didn't know what she was talking about.
If any of them were ever "certain," (which they at least felt they were) the results have bared out their utter ignorance.
Posted by: Richard White at November 29, 2005 11:22 AM (jbPtI)
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Oh man, there you go presenting facts and evidence again, people are really going to get confused if you keep doing that!
Posted by: Crazypolitico at November 29, 2005 02:54 PM (BuYeH)
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He even got the part about Hillary wrong:
FROM NEWSMAX
Tuesday, Nov. 29, 2005 7:55 p.m. EST
Hillary Clinton: Iraq War Vote a Mistake.
Posted by: Joe at November 29, 2005 10:33 PM (kEgnJ)
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Questioning the Unlikely
Nine days have passed since the first excited rumors surfaced that al Qaeda in Iraq leader Musab al Zarqawi
may have died in a dawn raid in Mosul November 19. Shortly thereafter, remains were sent for DNA tests, and it was said that was "
highly unlikely" that al-Zarqawi was among the dead.
That was over a week ago, and "highly unlikely" is still all we have from official sources.
But what is "likely?"
It is likely that a conclusive DNA test can be performed in five days or less from commercial sources, and it is probable that samples with as high a priority as al Zarqawi's would be determined before then.
It is perhaps likely that in the event of al Zarqawi's sudden termination, that U.S forces would intentionally keep quite about his death for a period of time, as the uncertainty in the chain of command could cause terrorists to make mistakes that might expose them.
It is highly unlikely that Abu Musab al Zarqawi is dead... but it isn't impossible, and nor is it highly unlikely that his death would be played out with not-quite confirmations and partial denials lasting as long as feasibly possible.
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Corrupt Scum
I knew Marion didn't raise that boy properly, but I never thought he'd take $2.4 million in bribes.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Words escape me. Let the judicial system work. And I'm, sorry, but there should be no leniency. Cunningham knew what he was doing when he did it. The time for remorse was BEFORE committing a felony.
Posted by: Old Soldier at November 28, 2005 08:00 PM (9ABza)
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I'd like to add that I find those who take defense-related bribes, potentially endangering our security, particularly disgusting.
I should hope that he gets the maximum sentence.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 29, 2005 06:51 AM (0fZB6)
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Sound and Fury, Pleasing No Juan
President Bush gave an immigration-related speech today at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base in Tucson, Arizona today, promising...
Nothing.
Bush, via Bloomberg:
"Together with Congress we are going to create a temporary worker program that is going to take pressure off the borders, bring workers out of the shadows,'' Bush told border patrol agents today at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base in Tucson, Arizona. ``People in this debate must recognize that we will not be able to effectively enforce our immigration laws until we create a temporary worker program."
No, Mr. President. You could not be more wrong.
We will not be able to effectively enforce our immigration laws until we have leaders serious about protecting our borders, Mr. Bush, and you have not shown yourself to be serious in this task.
This proposal is nothing but a smoke screen, one that does not in any serious way address the problems of stopping the illegal cross-border traffic of illegal aliens, drugs and suspected terrorists.
Mr. Bush's guest worker program is laughable; my farcical Punjis for Peace program involving bamboo pit traps is far more likely to succeed.
If you do not care about border security, Mr. Bush, at least have the courage to say so. Do not patronize me with empty words.
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I am sorely disappointed in the president's lack of a firm stand on this illegal alien issue. For someone so interested in limiting unnecessary collateral damage during war, he is ignoring the collateral damage going on inside our national borders by the unintended consequences of this issue; the draining of our hard earned tax dollars.
We have to speak louder, because Washington isn't hearing the real concern of the population. As I read the poles, National Security - the war is issue one, and National Security - the border is issue two. We cannot reward a blatant disregard for our laws by legitimizing the lawlessness through programs. We must back up and enforce our existing laws, period.
Posted by: Old Soldier at November 28, 2005 07:03 PM (9ABza)
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I generally support Mr. Bush but I feel he is really dropping the ball on illegal immigration. Unfortunately, I do not see him changing in this area anytime soon.
Posted by: Shoprat at November 28, 2005 07:40 PM (I6DQp)
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Step 1: Close the borders (with fences).
Step 2: Purge America of illegals.
Step 3: If we need more legal immigrants, open the border to them. Give preference to foreigners who are not illegal immigrants.
What the heck is so complicated? Who would be made unhappy by this plan? Someone make a list, so I can add it to a 'people I don't respect' list or something
Will this plan take time? Yup, get to work! As I've said before, they have until November 2006 to get it started, or I'm staying home on election day. I'm not voting Democrat, but I can't in good conscience vote Republican either if they can't put a simple black and white plan into action.
Posted by: Kevin at November 28, 2005 11:08 PM (Eq/i5)
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To Kevin.
I can't tell you to vote but you may want to look at the whole picture before you decide not to. Illegal immagragion is a huge problem but there are a lot of policies out there that can go either way. Every vote counts. If you vote, the others in the race need two votes to trump your one, if you don't, they only need one.
Posted by: Retired Navy at November 29, 2005 06:11 AM (y67bA)
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I certainly
hope to vote. All that is required to get me back into the Republican camp is one single bill. A vote by the House and Senate on an identical bill to begin building a fence down there. 11 months is plenty of time to vote on a bill. They've had 5 years to get it going, and so far nothing. If they can't pull it off by November, then there is really no point to support them. To me, they are just acting like Democrats but spelled with a capital 'R'.
If the government suddenly became controlled by the Democrats, I can't see too many changes. My taxes would go up, and the left would suddenly see the virtue of helping out Iraqis and understanding why we need to stay the course. That's about it.
Perhaps if the Republicans lose some votes, they will get scared and actually do what their base
wants them to do?
Posted by: Kevin at November 29, 2005 07:25 AM (Eq/i5)
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Try to look at a bigger picture. If the Democrats gain and the Republicans lose there could be a shift to the left. Taxes going up would be a small step, Dean would try to ram home his raising the minimum wage which could devastate the economy, small business would become a thing of the past. Hillary would be set up to be a Major threat in the next presidential election, not just a serious one, The war on terror would become a joke because of the pressure of the left and the Democrats have no real agenda for 1. the war, 2. the border, 3. Social security (I still believe the TSP plan would be benificial)and I am sure CY and Old Soldier could name a lot more than I can. Look at the whole thing and choose the best, abstaining (like the weak in congress) never works in my opinion.
Posted by: Retired Navy at November 29, 2005 08:18 AM (BuYeH)
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Shhh! *whispers* You're gonna blow it! To be honest, there is only a very small chance that I won't vote, and if I vote, there is
no chance I will vote against the Republican ticket. But they need to know that we are not happy. It worked so well with Miers that I really think the same tactic should be applied to the borders and spending. As a Reagan Republican, those are the only two unfinished policies I'm concerned with.
They've had almost 5 years to get these things done. It's time to scare them into action. At the very least, if they haven't gotten around to fixing these 2 huge problems, I will vote for the non-incumbent Republican in the primaries. I won't have to look at where he stands on issues, because I will already have determined where the incumbent stands.
I agree that it would serve no purpose to let the Democrats come to power again to further damage our nation. But can you agree that the Republicans in charge at this point are only doing marginally better? Something has to be done to spur them into action. B*tching about not voting is the best idea I have. If you have a better plan, please tell me, because all I want is results.
Posted by: Kevin at November 29, 2005 12:42 PM (Eq/i5)
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Glad to hear the vote is still on. Old Soldier contacts his reps, you can contact yours and tell them what you just told us, you are not happy and if you don't do something you will vote the incumbant out and put in a ringer. I also hate to type this and will deny deny deny that I ever did (no matter if it's glued and pasted somewhere else again) but the Democrats do well on that issue, that is they voice thier opinions LOUDLY. Something moderates and moderate conservatives rarely do. Speak up and speak out, let your voice be heard and known but don't give up or in. I did 20 years in the Navy and voted very few times because of one reason or another, then it hit me, why am I putting my life on the line for others if I don't do it myself. Make the best choice with the representation out there and cast your ballot.
Posted by: Retired Navy at November 29, 2005 02:21 PM (cqZXM)
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Kevin, I do believe you are onto something there...
Posted by: Old Soldier at November 29, 2005 06:16 PM (9ABza)
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The Lies of Fallujah: The Hidden Massacre, Part 3
Previous:
The Lies of Fallujah: The Hidden Massacre, Part 1
The Lies of Fallujah: The Hidden Massacre, Part 2
False claims are a constant in Fallujah: The Hidden Massacre.
In Part 1 of the series we show that Sigfrido Ranucci's film lies about a napalm attack in the Vietnamese village of Trang Bang in 1972. Despite the fact that this infamous incident was immortalized on film in photographer Huynh Cong "Nick" Ut's 1973 Pulitzer Prize winning photo, it didn't keep Rannuci from trying to blame a South Vietnamese Air Force mistake on Americans. Ranucci's film lied.
In Part 2 of the series we show that Ranucci's film lies about, "A rain of fire shot from U.S. helicopters on the city of Fallujah." But Ranucci's film does not show so much as one helicopter, and Ranucci's "rain of fire" was nothing more than two white phosphorus shell bursts along with one high explosive shell and three magnesium flares. Ranucci's film lied.
And Ranucci's film continues to lie again and again and again.
This time, we'll examine the bodies the "white phosphorus victims" of Fallujah: The Hidden Massacre.
White Phosphorus Pathology
Forensic Pathology is a branch of medical science concerned with analyzing medical evidence for crimes. When applied to the battlefield, forensic pathology can determine if certain wounds are consistent with different kinds of weapons.
In Fallujah: The Hidden Massacre, Sigfrido Ranucci's film shows in excess of 20 bodies his film claims were killed by the use of white phosphorus munitions in the assault on Fallujah, Iraq, in November of 2004.
But what are the characteristics of white phosphorus weapons?
To answer this question I turn to former Marine Grant Holcomb. While a Captain and the Operations Officer for 2d Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment from August 1990 to April 1991, Holcomb's unit conducted a minefield breach in Operation Desert Storm. He is an honor's graduate of the U.S. Marine Corps Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical Warfare Defense School.
He states:
WP catches fire spontaneously in air, burning with a white flame and producing clouds of white smoke - a mixture of phosphorus(III) oxide and phosphorus(V) oxide. The proportions of these depend on the amount of oxygen available. In an excess of oxygen, the product will be almost entirely phosphorus(V) oxide.
When integrated as part of a projectile, the weapon effect is derived from a chemical reaction. However, a WP based weapon is not a chemical weapon.
If a piece of WP hits clothes, it will burn through it. If WP hits skin it will burn deeply in to the flesh and cannot be put out by covering it or splashing it with water. Marines are told to cut burning WP particles out with a knife. It does not "splash" like a liquid and will subsequently leave very distinctive scars. There is absolutely no mistaking a WP burn. [my bold]
So white phosphorus leaves distinctive burns that easily burn though clothing and go deeply into the flesh.
But Where Are The White Phosphorus Burns?
As stated earlier, Sigfrido Ranucci's film Fallujah: The Hidden Massacre, shows in excess of 20 bodies his film claims were killed by the use of white phosphorus munitions in the assault on Fallujah, Iraq, in November of 2004.
We will now make a brief examination of screen captures of 19 bodies captured from the low quality film to determine if any deep, distinctive burns are present on any of the bodies. As Confederate Yankee strives to be a work-safe blog, I will provide a link to the picture being discussed instead of embedding the image. The time of the still image capture from the film is included should you want to make your own analysis from other, perhaps higher quality versions of the film.
more...
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Meanwhile, one of the biggest pushers of the "white phosphorous chemical weapons" myth has been rapidly scrambling about trying to cover their ass after showing their butts so badly over this issue:
http://thinkprogress.org/2005/11/25/truth-white-phosphorus/
Typically, they claim not to have said what they have said.
Like I've said before, Think Progress does neither.
http://nothingcouldbefiner.blogspot.com/2005/09/think-progress-does-neither-while.html
Later,
Posted by: Cicero at November 28, 2005 02:59 AM (LaBgD)
2
Go to Fumento.com, the website of science writer Michael Fumento to get more scientific truth on the White Phosphorous LIE. Impress your stupid liberal friends and relatives this Christmas!!!
Posted by: Connecticut Yankee at November 29, 2005 09:14 PM (6krEN)
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November 27, 2005
Yippie-Ki-Yay, Mother Sheehan
The Washington Post is the gift that just keeps on giving today, with the post
Sympathetic Vibrations telling us what we already; liberals are bad for the morale of our soldiers, and the vast majority of Americans know it:
Democrats fumed last week at Vice President Cheney's suggestion that criticism of the administration's war policies was itself becoming a hindrance to the war effort. But a new poll indicates most Americans are sympathetic to Cheney's point.
Seventy percent of people surveyed said that criticism of the war by Democratic senators hurts troop morale -- with 44 percent saying morale is hurt "a lot," according to a poll taken by RT Strategies. Even self-identified Democrats agree: 55 percent believe criticism hurts morale, while 21 percent say it helps morale.
It gets worse for the Party of No:
Just three of 10 adults accept that Democrats are leveling criticism because they believe this will help U.S. efforts in Iraq. A majority believes the motive is really to "gain a partisan political advantage."
Roger Simon notices this shift, and also notices action star Bruce Willis is making a movie based upon Michael Yon's chronicaling of Deuce Four, First Battalion, 24th Infantry. My money is on Willis to personally play Deuce Four commander LTC Erik Kurilla.
When this pro-democracy, pro-military film comes out, opinions on the war will continue to swing back towards supporting our troops, and the liberal special interest groups and politicians that tried to undermine the War on Terror will be hoisted on their cowardly petards.
The DNC better hope that Willis doesn' get his movie out before the 2006 elections. If he does, the Democrats will be in for a world of hurt they assuredly deserve.
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I suspect that some PC Leftist in Hollywood will quickly counter it with a movie more to their liking. Maybe Sean Penn as the CO of a company of Marines targeting innocent old ladies in Baghdad or some other nonsense.
Posted by: Shoprat at November 27, 2005 08:14 PM (I6DQp)
2
Well, it is a little known fact that Penn was supposed to play the role made famous by Tom Hanks in
Saving Private Ryan,but he was scrubbed when he kept sinking the landing craft as it launched. ;-)
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 27, 2005 08:30 PM (0fZB6)
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LOL I remember wasn't that operation Red Plastic Cup off the south end of Normandy beach?
Posted by: Joe at November 27, 2005 08:40 PM (kEgnJ)
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Good one, CY. Glad to see all that turkey hasn't affected your sense of humor.
Posted by: Old Soldier at November 27, 2005 08:40 PM (9ABza)
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I dream of the day charges of "Aiding and abbeting" are leveled at some ultra liberal Senator.
Posted by: Fish at November 27, 2005 11:19 PM (KpjA/)
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Ms. Lonely
Cindy Sheehan waits for people at her book signing near the president's ranch in Crawford, Tex., where she spoke to a crowd of about 100 people. Source
Via the Washington Post:
As in August, when she galvanized attention and made headlines for days with similar protests, there were songs and speeches and demonstrators holding signs reading "Bring the Troops Home" near the main entrance of the 1,600-acre ranch where Bush has been vacationing since Tuesday.
Unlike then, when hundreds came from all over the country for major events at the two campsites named after Sheehan's son, who was killed in Iraq, Sheehan found herself addressing a crowd of only about 100 Saturday afternoon. The large tent where supporters had erected a stage hung with the banner "Speak Truth to Power" was only partially full. In the morning Sheehan signed copies of her new book, being published this week, for an even smaller crowd.
Cindy Sheehan's cancerous celebrity had been built up around her belief that her son Casey Sheehan, an American soldier, "died for nothing." Cynical left wing political activists and the media immediately gravitated to her, and began distorting the war, comparing it to Vietnam. But Iraq is not Vietnam.
In fact, Iraq is the reverse-Vietnam, and Mother Sheehan will become even more lonely as the public becomes aware of her constant, America-hating lies.
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Breaks my heart to see this poor old has-been so lonely.
(sarcasm aside)
Can we forget about her now?
Posted by: Shoprat at November 27, 2005 06:02 PM (I6DQp)
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CY:
Now that you have established that Cindy Sheehan has no following, can you stop pretending she represents liberals in America? You can't have it both ways.
Posted by: Nate at November 27, 2005 06:34 PM (NOT0D)
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As far as I'm concerned, you can't hammer her enough! The quicker she is rendered irrelevant the better off our troops and their mission will be!
Posted by: Old Soldier at November 27, 2005 06:41 PM (9ABza)
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Well Nate, when top liberal public relations firms quit representing her, and Michael Moore and the Huffington Post don't give her prime posting real estate, and top liberal columnists aren't proclaiming her "absolute moral authority,"and the mainstream media doesn't give her prime coverage for events smaller than your average PTA meeting, and top liberal blogs aren't tripping to echo her every pronouncement as gospel, perhaps
then I'll stop hammering her.
She
does represent liberals, Nate, because liberals, as a group, decided that she did.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 27, 2005 07:25 PM (0fZB6)
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Aw, poor Cindy can't get anyone to show up. Someone tell her the 15 minutes is up.
Nate, liberals, and communists (ANSWER) declared her the "moral authority" on the war. The fact that none of them showed up shows that their attention span is limited. It's Murtha's week now.
Posted by: Crazy Politico at November 27, 2005 08:15 PM (oZ+Q0)
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Sorry, Cindy Sheehan never represented anti-war liberals anymore than Pat Robertson respresents Christians. There is a wide variety of liberals, just as their are a wide variety of Christians.
But hey, I say keep hammering away at her. The more you attack her the more you keep Iraq in the news, and the more you come off like you're picking on the little guy. It may be red meat for your GOP base, but you're waving goodbye to independents.
Posted by: Nate at November 27, 2005 08:44 PM (NOT0D)
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Oh yes she does represent the anti-war liberals since the MSM has made it that way, every time she farts they are there with their noses up her A**. Channeling Liberal: BE THE SHEEHAN, FEEL THE SHEEHAN WE ARE THE SHEEHAN channeling off.
Posted by: Joe at November 27, 2005 08:55 PM (kEgnJ)
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oh how the 'mighty' have fallen.
Posted by: meangreeneinsc at November 28, 2005 01:21 AM (WB4NZ)
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Ranter Admits to Liberal Lies About Iraq War Support
Its long been an open secret, but at least one liberal is coming clean about their two-faced positions on supporting the troops in Iraq.
Via Newsbusters.org:
It was a classic "gotcha" moment.
Ellen Ratner, the short, liberal side of The Long & the Short of It on Fox & Friends Weekend, just let the liberal cat out of the bag. Discussing the Democrats' approach to Iraq withdrawal proposals, Ratner admitted:
"If you got [Dem leaders] in a room off camera everyone agrees, but people are trying to look tough on security so the Democrats can win the House back in 2006."
Jim Pinkerton, the long, conservative side of the equation, pounced on this rare bit of Dem candor:
"Viewers should note that Ellen basically said that Democrats will think one thing and say another."
Uh, duh...
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I don't often agree with Ms. Ratner, but I have on occasion. This I have to say; She says it like she sees it. I mostly disagree with her, but she is certainly someone I could have a discussion with. If the Democrats had more of her ilk, they would be a force to be reckoned with.
Good news though! They don't, and they're not
Posted by: Kevin at November 28, 2005 11:13 PM (Eq/i5)
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November 26, 2005
Manufacturing a Gun Crisis with the Associated Press
Read
this article, and you'd get the impression that there is a tank-killing, airplane-destroying rifle being bought by drug dealers, survivalists, and terrorists
en masse.
It is too bad that almost all of what they write is inaccurate hyperbole.
For example:
When U.S. soldiers need to penetrate a tank's armor from a mile away, they count on a weapon that evolved from the garage tinkering of a former wedding photographer.
There is not a single tank made since early in World War Two that could be penetrated by an armor-piercing bullet from a .50 BMG. Not one. Only unarmored vehicles (which can be penetrated by literally any rifle, including a .22) and lightly-armored personnel carriers are threatened by .50 BMG rounds.
The .50-caliber rifle created by Ronnie Barrett and sold by his company, Barrett Firearms Manufacturing Inc., is the most powerful firearm civilians can buy.
Not quite accurate. While the 50. BMG is currently the most powerful centerfire rifle cartridge in wide distribution*, Barrett is far from being the only manufacturer making these rifles. They are offered by Accuracy International, Anzio Ironworks, Armalite, and more than a dozen other rifle manufacturers.
It weighs about 30 pounds and can hit targets up to 2,000 yards away with armor-piercing bullets.
This is accurate, though finding an area where you can see a target 2,000 yards away is somewhat problematic.
That kind of power has drawn a customer base of gun enthusiasts, Hollywood actors and Barrett's most loyal buyer, the U.S. military, which has been buying Barrett's rifles since the 1980s and using them in combat from the 1991 Gulf War to the present.
Also true.
But the powerful gun has drawn plenty of critics, who say the rifle could be used by terrorists to bring down commercial airliners or penetrate rail cars and storage plants holding hazardous materials.
This rifle has drawn plenty of ignorant critics, including, apparently, the Associated Press. A .50 rifle is less likely to bring down a commercial airliner than any other kind of rifle. Why?
The vast majority of .50 BMG rifles are single-shot weapons. The odds of hitting an airplane moving several hundred miles an hour with a single bullet from a 30-pound, handheld or bipod-mounted weapon are extremely remote, and the odds of a single half-inch wide bullet hitting anything of significance on an airborne aircraft verges on the impossible. (Publicola explains in exquisite detail why shooting an aircraft at range with a .50 BMG is highly improbable.)
Rail cars and storage tanks are a legitimate target for a .50 BMG rifle, but it is far easier to acquire or manufacture explosives that would cause far more damage to the targeted structure.
Tom Diaz, a senior policy analyst with the Washington-based Violence Policy Center, says the guns should be more regulated and harder to purchase.
The gun can now be bought by anyone 18 or older who passes a background check.
"They're (.50 caliber) easier to buy than a handgun," Diaz said. "These are ideal weapons of terrorist attack. Very dangerous elements gravitate toward these weapons."
Mr. Diaz, of course, is guilty of extreme hyperbole. .50 BMG-chambered weapons are not "easier to buy than a handgun" except in his fevered imagination.
The Barrett M82 pictured in the MSNBC-version of this Associated Press article retails for $7,500. Most single shot .50 BMG rifles range from $2,600 upwards. For this reason, no national sporting good stores carry this caliber of firearm, nor its ammunition, which costs $3-$5 per cartridge. It is prohibitively expensive for all but the most affluent customers. Only a tiny fraction of gun shops across the nation stock such a firearm, whereas almost all typically stock dozens to hundreds of pistols.
If 50 BMG rifles are the "ideal weapons of terrorist attack," then why hasn't a .50 rifle ever been used in a terror attack anywhere in the world? Not once have I ever heard of an incident reported where a .50 BMG rifle was used in a terror attack, not can I find any evidence of such an attack.
Nor can I find any evidence that "dangerous elements" gravitate towards such a weapon. More people have walked on water than have been assaulted with a .50 BMG rifle.
Mr. Diaz's hyperbole verges on being a bald-faced lie.
The guns are used by most civilians for hunting big game and in marksmanship competitions.
I'd be very interested to see who the Associated Press find who uses such a weapon for hunting. At roughly 30 lbs and five feet, these rifles are far too impractical for hunting purposes based upon size and weight alone. They are simply too heavy to carry afield. In addition, the .50 cartridge is not useful as a hunting round, being vastly overgunned for every big game animal on the planet.
Long-range target shooting with .50 BMG rifles, on the other hand is rapidly growing in popularity, as the existence and growing membership of the FCSA and .50 BMG-capable target ranges proves.
Joseph King, a terrorism expert at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York, said terrorists could use the weapon to take out a plane.
"I don't understand what good a .50-caliber is going to do you," King said. "I don't understand any civilian use of it. The only thing it's good for is for military or police application. You can't really hunt with it because it would destroy most of the meat."
This has been previously addressed. .50 BMG rifles are very unlikely to successful carry out an attack against an aircraft. While Mr. Jay may claim terrorism expertise, he seems to have gathered his firearms and aeronautical knowledge from Hollywood.
"I don't understand what good" is not a valid legal argument in this country. While not understanding a good use for something might be a reason to outlaw everything from foosball tables to the Wonderbra for Mr. King, his potential fear of Wonderbras and guns doesn't have to ruin the enjoyment of such products for everyone else.
Barrett and gun advocates say the gun's power has been exaggerated and doesn't pose a threat to citizens because the weapons are too expensive and heavy to be used by criminals.
As I've been saying...
The heavy recoil of the Browning made it nearly impossible to shoot without it being mounted on a turret, but Barrett's rifle reduces recoil to the point where it can be shoulder-fired, while the weapon rests on a bipod.
Actually, the 84-pound weight of the M2 Browning all but negated recoil, but made sturdy mounts necessary.
There are enough things in this world to worry about in this world without the Associated Press manufacturing hysterics. Don't you agree?
* The .50 BMG is not the most powerful machine gun cartridge available in a rifle as the Associated Press claims. There are at least three rifle cartridges that have more power. The 12.7mm Russian cartridge uses the same .50 bullet, but has a case length 9mm longer, and therefore can hold more powder (producing more energy, range, and penetration) than the .50 BMG.
The 14.5mm Russian and 14.5 JDJ, while made in smaller numbers and requiring a destructive device exemption, both fire a bullet substantially larger than the .50 BMG, and the 14.5 Russian cartridge generates nearly twice the muzzle energy.
Update As a former member of the British Army's Queen's Own Highlanders reminds me in the comments, A Barrett Light 50 was used by an IRA sniper team between 1992-97, and killed 11 members of the security forces during that time period with single shot attacks.
I would agree with Dave T. that these IRA sniper attacks are indeed terror attacks, they just did not happen to fit the mass casualty definition of terrorism that has become common today and was implied in the AP article.
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"Known as the Barrett Light Fifty, the weapon was eventually smuggled into Ireland and was used by the IRA to kill eleven members of the security forces in one shot attacks mostly in south Armagh between 1992 and 1997. It was possibly the most feared gun in the IRA's arsenal at the time."
I was shot at by one of these - missed my patrol but they got a hit a week earlier in Crossmaglen South Armagh. Now whilst I appreciate 'terrorism' might not have the same definition with some Americans if it is in 'Irish' context, nevertheless I would class these sniper attacks as 'terrorism'.
The fact that the sniper was eventually found to be an American and that AQ are alleged to have obtained 25 of these rifles from the IRA in 1988 also gives cause for concern.
Just a wee point. Good blog!
Posted by: Dave t at November 27, 2005 08:42 AM (W7YeE)
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The next thing you know, they'll be trying to outlaw fishing with dynamite. These people have no respect for game-taking sportsmen.
These people wouldn't sing this airplane tune if they had seen some of the Huey helicopters that "flew home" with well over
100 .30 caliber and .51 caliber hits in Vietnam. And helicopters are considered significantly more vulnerable than are fixed wing craft. SA-7 GRAILs (Russian equivalent to our Stinger shoulder fired anit-aircraft missiles) would be much more effective and are more plentiful than are Barretts.
Sniping does have a terror application as the first commenter pointed out. However, the radical Islamic terrorist's current tactics seem bent on grandiose. They want to kill and injure a lot more than one person at a time. I don't see the .50 caliber rifle (in the hands of radical Islamic terrorists) as any kind of significant threat to the people of the US. The weapon of choice for the DC snipers (who by coincidence were Muuslim) was a .223 caliber, not .50 caliber.
Posted by: Old Soldier at November 27, 2005 09:38 AM (9ABza)
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I saw this article in the Houston Chronicle yesterday, and I just KNEW there's be a quote from an anti-gunner from the VPC. It would have been nice if the AP reporter had asked some experts about Diaz's outrageous claim, but as we've all seen from reports on gun-related issues, it's just entirely too much to ask to get both sides of the story reported fairly.
Posted by: Erik at November 27, 2005 10:42 AM (tYX97)
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Dave T,
Thanks for the information. I think I'd heard rumours that these rifles had been used by a team in the IRA, but as the context of the AP article was the domestic U.S. use of this rifle as a terrorist weapon, it didn't cross my mind as I wrote the article. I added your information as an update to the main article.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 27, 2005 10:57 AM (0fZB6)
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Cheers. I rather wish we weren't so hampered by the gun laws over here- only the criminals seem to have the damm things - witness the shooting dead of a female police officer and the injuring of another last week by what appear to be illegal immigrants who may have fled to Europe....
Posted by: Dave t at November 28, 2005 02:40 AM (W7YeE)
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Dave T, we have a saying here, "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns!", and sadly that's what appears to have happened in Britain.
Posted by: Tom T at November 28, 2005 06:40 AM (M7kiy)
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Yep! Part of the cunning plan by the undercover communists to keep the mobs under control. Did you know our Secretary of State for Defence (Rummy's equivalent) is a former Marxist...? As are many of the current government?!
Looks like old Joe Stalin's long term plan is working.....
Posted by: Dave t at November 28, 2005 08:04 AM (W7YeE)
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I've always wanted one of these. Out here in Texas, we can actually get 2000 yards of open space to shoot.
Dave T makes a good point, if obliquely. These guns are better for anti-personnel use than anti-vehicle (tanks, aircraft, etc.). Even a .50 cal makes a (relatively) small hole. I've been on the sending and receiving end of the M2 .50 cal machine gun and survived, so maybe I know a bit about this.
A far bigger worry is all of the anti-tank and anti-aircraft rockets floating around the world. This whole discussion is just a subtle gun grab.
Posted by: old_dawg at November 28, 2005 10:08 AM (7nc0l)
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I was shooting at a target with my .22 rifle the other day. The bullet went right through the target and the straw bail behind it. 300 yards away, it smacked into a bug, killing it and ending the bullets kinetic energy.
Here's the bad part. The bug was the rare "split tailed dual winged orange spotted hairy cockroach". And that is why I'm for not only making .50 caliber guns illegal, but all guns! If it saves just one split tailed dual winged orange spotted hairy cockroach, it's worth it.
Posted by: Kevin at November 28, 2005 11:21 PM (Eq/i5)
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I've watched a video of "guys with big guns" shooting things...The .50 caliber was used to hit a car door. It was shot through a light cover of brush and grass. The round did NOT penetrate the old 57 chevy door with any effectiviness. It split into three pieces after conacting the small, light branchs of the shrubbery. The shooter did the forensics and said (paraphrasing) "Well, I guess the lesson is, if you must shoot through a simple unarmored car door, make sure your target isn't armored with light brush covering."
No way this round can penetrate a lightly armored vehicle. None.
Posted by: Connecticut Yankee at November 29, 2005 09:22 PM (6krEN)
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Conn Yank,
Whatever you saw shot was NOT .50 BMG, which would not have any problem with a 57 Chevy's engine block, much less a door...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 29, 2005 11:35 PM (0fZB6)
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November 25, 2005
"Friends of Sheehan" Target Children With Grenades
Michael Moore and Cindy Sheehan must be proud of their "Minutemen" friends for specifically targeting children with
hand grenades hidden in dolls.
These children are the people Cindy Sheehan wants to abandon. She claims to be "heartbroken" that our troops aren't home.
I wish she cared half as much about these children, but hey, they aren't white, or American, so I guess they aren't worth dying for...
Right, Cindy?
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They only care about children whose deaths can be directly blamed on America. Find a way to blame the deaths on the USA and they will become the most important people in the world. Their problems with America is not what we do but who we are. As long as we are who we are, our actions will never satisfy them.
Posted by: shoprat at November 25, 2005 04:35 PM (I6DQp)
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The VC (Viet Cong) used to use children, too. They would put a grenade in a kid's hand, pull the pin and tell them to take it to the American GIs.
I can't figure Cindy Sheehan out; she's too old to make a movie like Barbarella - besides, who the heck would go see it?. I also can't figure; if she is so "heartbroken" why is she always smiling (for the cameras that is). Oh, yeah, there's one more thing I can't figure out about Cindy: what's her purpose in life, I mean besides being an oxygen thief?
Posted by: Old Soldier at November 25, 2005 04:57 PM (9ABza)
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<>
Gosh, I was leaning Anti-bush and Anti-Iraq War there for a minute, but the above quote sure has me convinced now.
What a Man !
And a Helluva Nice Guy Too !
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAA
Posted by: Duke Denby at November 25, 2005 09:38 PM (M7kiy)
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You Bush-supporters are so incredibly dumb you don't even realize you have resorted to classic left-wing "do it for the children" tactics to justify your war. Where were you when Bush wanted to pull our troops out of Kosovo, where they were helping to prevent genocide? Where are your photos of children in the Sudan? Of poor kids in Asia? Oh, that's right, they don't serve your Iraq war agenda, so you could care less about them.
Your war is over. Now Republicans are looking for the exit, and are going to blame the MSM and Cindy Sheehan for eroding morale and causing us to lose the war. I say keep it up, because sane Americans see right through your pathetic scapegoating. You got your war, but you were too stupid to realize you what kind of a war it would be. Let the grownups take over now.
Posted by: Nate at November 25, 2005 09:40 PM (NOT0D)
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Nate, we'd love to be able to put some Green Berets in the Sudan, but can't because of folks like John Murtha and anti-war types who don't think war is worth being fought for any reason. If you remember, he's the one who convinced Clinton to abandon Somalia's children when just 18 Americans died.
Freeing the Iraqi people was already a state goal. Just read the President's pre-war speeches, genius.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 25, 2005 10:01 PM (0fZB6)
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Nate, do you know any grown-ups that can keep the facts straight and remember from one year to the next what they read and how they voted? If you do they're not in your party.
Posted by: Old Soldier at November 25, 2005 10:13 PM (9ABza)
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I have some bitter thoughts at this moment about other friends of Cindy Sheehan, they are expounded upon in this post
When I was Ten Years Old
Here's a brief sample
"I think it was the machine gunfire that woke me up that night. It turned out
they were having exercises, but sometimes ten year old boys are not told these
things. I was frozen at that window in total terror, UNTIL, I saw the Marines
running towards the beach in full kit. Then I was all in one istant, no longer
afraid. I knew that those big strong men, who played with us kids in the sanlot
behind their barracks and my Daddy would not let ANYTHING Bad happen to us. Some
may understand how I felt when I read. This Is How The Left Supports The Troops?
in Common Sense Run Wild"
Posted by: Dan Kauffman at November 26, 2005 01:32 AM (ZgJa9)
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Whom are you kidding? Clinton had to fight tooth and nail to get Republicans to approve military intervention in Bosnia and Kosovo. Bush ran on an election platform of pulling the troops out of Kosovo because they were "eroding the morale" of the army. Look it up.
Look, the US military is trained to fight and win wars. At this point, the military is not trained to mediate disputes between tons of ethnic groups, rebuild the economies of corrupt, backward states, or foster democratic governments in formerly tribal societies. If post 9-11, Republicans decide they want they military to do these things, we don't you help our guys out and actually train them for these jobs?
And by the way, our Green Berets in CENT-COM are deployed where they are most desperately needed right now- in Iraq and Afghanistan. They practically run the Afghan operation. If you think we are willing to send some down to the mess in the Sudan, that's foolishly idealistic thinking.
Posted by: Nate at November 26, 2005 11:19 AM (NOT0D)
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Nate, you have just shown a ton of not knowing what you are talking about.
First off, there is more than one Special Forces battalion. The battalions have different areas of responsibility and specialties associated with those geographical regions. You are very misinformed if you believe all of the ArmyÂ’s SF is committed to Afghanistan and Iraq. Not so, no matter how much you may wish it to be so.
Second, the Army has “Civil Affairs” battalions whose mission is to assist weak governments and build governments where necessary. Have you paid absolutely no attention to the news? Iraq and Afghanistan both have fledgling representative governments where several democratic votes have already occurred. How do you think those governments came about? Magic in a vacuum? I’m afraid not. The US Army helped to build those governments. So your snip about training our military (to accomplish civil affairs type missions) is negated. Already been done, Nate, and bearing fruit!
IÂ’m not going to address Kosovo, because it doesnÂ’t come close to resembling Afghanistan and Iraq. It was a peace-keeping mission not an operation directed to ensure our national security. Since you brought up Kosovo, why did Clinton believe it so important to keep the peace in Kosovo but ignore the genocide in the Sudan?
”Look, the US military is trained to fight and win wars.”
My handle (Old Soldier) is predicated upon 31 years active service in the U.S. Army. I believe I understand what the military is trained to do, apparently much better than you.
Posted by: Old Soldier at November 26, 2005 12:27 PM (9ABza)
Posted by: Claire at November 26, 2005 01:15 PM (l1oyw)
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Old Soldier:
Special Forces are divided into five different regions, and learn the different languages. They are currently deployed all over the world, which is why the are a finite amount of SF forces in CENT-COM, which encompasses the Near East and North-Eastern Africa. The army cannot just drop a bunch of Green Berets into the Sudan because the Arabic specialists are needed in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the rest are spread out in places like the Phillipines and Columbia, where they are conducting lower profile operations against terrorists and drug lords. SF cannot be deployed to the Sudan without giving up other missions, even if you wanted to take a unit out of their specialized region.
Yes, we do have Civil Affairs units, but not nearly enough of them. Things like Psychological Operations, Military Police, and Civil Affairs are over-taxed due to our military being unprepared for such a prolonged nation-building effort. And even if we did have more people in these positions, what is really needed is more cultural experts and linguists, the lack of which doomed our first two years in Iraq. See pro-war military experts such as Robert Kaplan and Max Boot for more on this.
We are doing much better now, given that the military adapts quickly and we have learned from our mistakes, but frankly I think it is too little too late. We have a low-level civil war going on that the administration refused to acknowledge, preferring to characterize it as the last gasp of terrorists. The political progress we see is built on a very weak foundation, and very possibly could cave due to a number of factors.
Regarding Kosovo, I'm a realist. That intervention was an example of doing something with our allies to promote a greater good. But we cannot be all things to all people. If in the future we want to go into places like Rwanda and the Sudan, we need to develop better peace-keeping capabilities, and certainly reform the UN. This process will take time, and given our priorities in Iraq, I don't see us focusing on preventing genocides at present. We certainly shouldn't go in anywhere unilaterally right now, even to prevent a genocide.
Posted by: Nate at November 26, 2005 01:28 PM (NOT0D)
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Nate, your tune has changed significantly. Were you baiting in your earlier comments?
How long did it take the allies (primarily the US) to rebuild Germany? Japan? It was many years more than 3. During our “rebuilding” process in Germany, our soldiers were continuously being sniped and subjected to booby-trap bomb devices. Some could have argued that we were dealing with a civil war within Germany. Iraq isn’t going perfectly by any means, but it is going better than any of our past nation rebuilding projects.
Iraq may ultimately fail as a free Islamic representative democracy. Then again it may just succeed. If it succeeds, it will deny al-Qaeda a logistical resource they desperately need. Iraq could possibly join Jordan in declaring war on al-Qaeda and other radical Islamic terrorist organizations. The alternative to attempting to defeat radical Islam by denying them resources, is to make it too painful to all of Islam for radical Islam to be tolerated or supported. That will be a very unfortunate error indeed if that is an eventuality.
I hear what I believe to be your pain. I can only say that since Vietnam the military has repeatedly been asked to do more with less resources. I donÂ’t see that changing anytime soon.
Posted by: Old Soldier at November 26, 2005 02:24 PM (9ABza)
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The doll grenade story is horrible if true, but
it's lurid enough to smell like agitprop. No
photographs, no witnesses, and no source other
than an Iraqi Army spokesman. Remember the
dead-babies-dumped-from-incubators story from
the first gulf war?
http://tinyurl.com/5vr1
Posted by: Laney at November 26, 2005 06:29 PM (OC+Q8)
14
Old Soldier:
My angry tone in the first post was because before I was writing out of sheer frustration. I still think posting pictures of children and accusing war critics of not caring about non-white, non-American kids is ridiculous, and something that fringe left-wingers do when arguing on behalf of things like welfare and affirmative action. It is an intellectually dishonest tactic.
Regarding Japan and Germany: I don't think these are good analogies for Iraq for a number of reasons. Both had:
a) Highly developed economies
b) No inner strife among ethnic groups
c) A much less effective insurgency
Then there is the fact that, in terms of the military, we have never left those countries. None of this is the case in Iraq, where we have a harder job, and less time to do it, since nobody wants a long-term American presence.
I don't think any of our problems in Iraq are to be blamed on the military. I do blame the people who sent them to Iraq and ignored the State Department reports that predicted this kind of situation could occur. And I hope we are recognizing that:
a) asymetical warfare is something that requires a new skill set to fight
b) nation-building is a serious business that can't be improvised on the spot.
I recommend the author Thomas Barnett, who advocates a two-pronged approach along these lines, but wouldn't force the military to do both at the same time.
Posted by: Nate at November 26, 2005 07:18 PM (NOT0D)
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Nate, IÂ’ll let CY address your first issue.
In regards to the differences between Iraq and Germany and Japan; there are several more differences of significance. In Germany and Japan we established military governments and our forces were in fact occupational armies. In Iraq, we very quietly established a military government only long enough to empower some of the Iraqi political leaders. We messed up on one or two and had to replace them, but we established Iraqi political leaders as quickly as possible. We also did not assume the roll of an occupational army. We did not lock down and control the country. It would have been counterproductive for us (as infidels) to establish positive control over an Islamic country we “liberated” vs. conquered.
Although Germany and Japan had functioning economies in place they both crashed after their surrender. In each case their currency became worthless overnight. It took several years to get both countries back on their feet economically and a lot of that was done through American contracts with German and Japanese companies. Iraq on the contrary has flourished quickly with TV stations, cell phone service, newspapers, schools, hospitals, and other infrastructure.
In Germany we still faced opposition from the Gestapo and the Hitler Youth associated with the Arian propaganda. I donÂ’t have the casualty statistics associated with the early years of occupying Germany, so I canÂ’t say if the radical Islamic terrorists are more or less effective. I know the frequency and numbers of attacks are decreasing, and that the Iraqi populace is becoming more cooperative at turning in the terroristÂ’s locations.
No we havenÂ’t left Germany and Japan, but we are no longer an occupational force. Part of the conditions of surrender stipulated no armed forces other than for defense. (ThatÂ’s one of the reason Japan would not send offensive forces to the first Gulf War. They sent money and equipment, but no troops.) As the world geopolitical landscape changed, it became apparent that allied forces would be required for deterrent reasons. It also gave us a global presence during the COld War. That may occur in Iraq as well. We just havenÂ’t reached that point yet.
Asymmetrical warfare is significantly different from mid and high intensity conflicts against a national uniformed force. However, we’ve been training asymmetrical tactics for some years now. We’re not as “unskilled” as some might think. Technology is on our side and improving every day. The terrorists target us just enough to keep US deaths in the news. They still kill far more Iraqis trying to keep them intimidated for later purposes. The problem is that the Iraqis are getting real tired of being killed and are really starting to fight back. It will not surprise me to read that Iraq has joined Jordan in declaring war on al-Qaeda.
We all but enjoyed a victory of defeating asymmetrical forces in Vietnam. We rendered the VC ineffective and had the NVA on the ropes (without knowing it at the time). And we did that with conventional forces using pretty much conventional tactics. Too, the radical Islamic terrorists do not have an opposing super power arming them with the latest technology weapons (like the NVA had the USSR and China). The terrorists are receiving some munitions from Iran. I donÂ’t know, but expect steps are being taken to limit suspect traffic at that border. I believe Iran will exercise some prudence, because they really donÂ’t want to give us a legitimate reason to invade.
Nonetheless, the process converting Iraq into a free Islamic nation has started and it is imperative we maintain security long enough for them to become self defended. We must stay committed to that end.
Posted by: Old Soldier at November 26, 2005 08:41 PM (9ABza)
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I'll allow for a different, more optimistic take on Iraq than my own. But I'm more concerned than you for the following reasons:
1) I'm unconvinced that the suicide bomber problem is improving. As this past week has shown, the terrorists are still killing far more people than befits a reasonably stable society. The Sunnis and Shiites are increasingly distrustful of each other, and it is difficult to tell how much the Shiite militias have penetrated the new Iraqi army.
2) It doesn't seem to me that we have a way of cutting down on munitions from Iran or infiltrators from Syria. We have recently done a better job of taking a town and staying put, but it seems to me we are still spread thin, even with the new Iraqi forces, and can't control the borders.
3) I do think the majority of the Iraqi people hates the terrorists. But I also think there is resentment towards the US for not doing more to stop the terrorists. In my opinion, we made a major mistake by NOT occupying the country in the first year. We were always going to be perceived as an occupier in the short-term anyway, and the benefits of law and order would have helped in the long run. I'm always amused when certain Republicans say that the Democrats view the military as occupiers instead of liberators, since I don't think you can liberate a country unless you effectively occupy it. Maybe Germany and Japan were less well off than Iraq in the initial years of occupation, but the long-term results in Germany and Japan are hard to argue with.
Despite my misgivings, I do agree that we should be committed to giving Iraq the best future it can get. I can't say much about the Vietnam comparison, but from talking to my dad and neighbor, ex-vets, I've always been under the impression that winning in Vietnam would have required bombing the country is a way that totally destroyed it. I mean, wouldn't the NVA have turned into an insurgency rather than give up like a traditional army? It seems to me that war was very much like this one in that ultimately a military solution was secondary to a "hearts and minds" campaign, and the latter is more difficult to fight.
Posted by: Nate at November 27, 2005 10:50 AM (NOT0D)
17
Nate, I donÂ’t have any insight into the factional distrust between Sunni and Shiite or Shia or whoever. I can only hope that with a representative government a balance will be effected where one faction does not possess the ability to subjugate the others. Like I said, it may work and it may not. But if we donÂ’t try weÂ’ll never know and if it does work weÂ’re light-years ahead.
I now there are many tactical ways to control a border besides committing troops. Satellites, Unmanned Aerial Vehicles, ground radar are just a few. Weapons carrying UAVs and artillery batteries can be effective at stopping unwanted intruders. IÂ’ve been concerned about border control, too, but if it were as big a threat as we perceive, you can bet your bottom dollar those generals would be moving move troops in as needed. Since the generals are not indicating they need more troops, I have to believe in their judgment. Remember, Saddam had huge weapons caches many of which we havenÂ’t discovered as yet. ANd they could be the primary sources of the IED munitions.
As far as actually occupying Iraq, I have to go back to Germany and Japan. In Germany it took 4 years to get to the first election and we ended our occupation the same year food rationing ended – 1952. In Japan we occupied the country until 1952 also. Effecting elections in Japan included having to institute suffrage. If we had tried to occupy Iraq for an extended period, I’m afraid we would have solidified all of Islam behind al-Qaeda rather than our gaining Iraq’s alliance. Something to think about…
The Vietnam misperception that we had to destroy villages in order to save them is incorrect. There were in deed villages destroyed, but primarily because they were known to be NVA or VC strongholds. Usually it was the South Vietnamese that conducted the assaults and usually the villages were notified to vacate. I do not necessarily condone that tactic, however, an army will not constantly take fire from a known enemy stronghold location and not do something about it. That is part of the inhumanity of war.
According to Gen Giap, had we continued to attack the Ho Chi Minh trail (the logistics supply route from north Vietnam into South Vietnam) the NVA would have had to negotiate a peace settlement because they were not getting enough supplies through to keep their troops fed and armed. They hung on because they recognized that the dissent and protesting within the US was causing a loss of will to win the war. As I’ve said before, the politicians managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. The NVA would not have had the means to become insurgents; they would have had no supplies. We had almost achieved the ultimate goal of warfare – deny the enemy the ability to mount offensive operations. It was the Jane Fondas and John Kerrys that fueled the dissent and protests that ultimately caused the population to drop their support for a victory in Vietnam. That’s why I’m so bitter toward the Jane Fondas and now Cindy Sheehans, but that is not on topic, is it?
WeÂ’ve made mistakes and probably will make more. But every American should know that Iraq is but one front on the global war against radical Islamic terrorists. We fight for our right not to have to worship Allah or submit to Dhimmitude or die.
Posted by: Old Soldier at November 27, 2005 04:51 PM (9ABza)
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I have read conflicting reports about the need for more troops in Iraq. Rumsfeld may be correct when he says the generals have not requested more troops, but I've read a lot of accounts from officers on the ground who say the exact opposite. I don't politics are out of the question here, since I'm sure the other generals noted that Gen. Shinseki was pushed into an early retirement soon after his assessment that Iraq would need a few hundred thousand troops.
Regarding our mistakes, I realize it is easy to point out errors in hindsight. But I don't know that declaring martial law, instituting curfews, and threatening to shoot looters would have necessarily turned the Iraqis against us. The first objective should have been order, followed by economic development. We should have identified the sheiks with power, given them money for reconstruction projects, and encouraged them to sign up as many young men for work as possible, even if they signed up more than were needed for a job. So long as young men are showing up for work, the sheiks would stay on the US payroll, since this is perhaps the best counter-insurgency tool. This influx of cash would act as a counterpoint to the heavy-handed police state, and we could slowly work towards elections.
I don't know enough about military tactics, but it seems to me we should have made it known once we took Baghdad that no armed militias, bodyguards, or gangs of any kind would be tolerated. We should have encouraged the Iraqi military and police to come forward, and if they turned in their arms, we would continue to pay their salaries, as well as keep open the option to return to their job. It strikes me as a mistake for the US to have not insisted on a complete monopoly of force in the first year. We can give them their right to bear arms later on.
As for Vietnam, you may be right that we could have won. (I still doubt that) But I very much disagree that it was Jane Fonda and John Kerry that lost it. The country just finally decided we were losing too many lives for an ambiguous cause. If anything the anti-war protestors prolonged the war, since so many people were put off by their overt anti-Americanism.
The same goes for today. Cindy Sheehan, in my opinion, has zero effect on America's stance on the war. The country voted for Bush because they were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on Iraq, even though it had not gone according to plan. Over the last year, they haven't seen enough progess, and have shifted their views. The notion that Democrats are driving this shift is absurd, since if anything their recent attacks on Bush reflect them FOLLOWING the public mood rather than LEADING it. I can see how a pro-war person might see this as reprehensible, but frankly it's just politics, and politicans will always try to pander to the people.
Posted by: Nate at November 27, 2005 06:23 PM (NOT0D)
19
Nate, Shinseki’s retirement may be perceived as having been pushed, but it is immaterial to the troop strength assigned to the Iraq operation. General Franks was the theater commander and it was his call on forces necessary to victoriously take Saddam’s military. Gen Shinseki was in a staff position – he did not command troops or a theater of operation. Gen Cody has never stated that more forces were required and he is the Vice Chief of Staff and is much closer to the action (as it were). As for officers returning making statements that more troops are needed; the military is a very structured organization with levels of command and staffs. Junior officers start out at the lower level organizations and are not necessarily privy to holistic plans and requirements. They may earnestly believe more troops would improve their ability to control the situation and in many instances they may be more correct than wrong. However, time as favored the decisions made by Franks and his successors.
The historical situations (Germany and Japan) where we have occupied a country with marshal law, validate that it takes a long time to reconstitute a country's government and economy. Unemployment is somewhat a problem in Iraq, however with all the gains in Iraqi infrastructure, more and more jobs become available weekly. There is more infrastructure up and running now than when Saddam was in power. Besides, poverty and unemployment is not the motivator for the radical Islamic terrorists. The terrorists involved in 9-11 were not poor, nor were they from poor families. Destitution was not a motivator – it was the radical Islamic jihad theology.
Shortly after we took Iraq, there were many sweeping operations trying to round up arms. Iraq was very much like the US in that much of the population owned weapons. Trying to disarm the US would be an armyÂ’s worst nightmare. As long as the Iraqi was not suspected of being a terrorist or supporting them, they were pretty much left alone. And there have been instances where armed citizens have taken out some of the terrorists themselves.
I’m not trying to oversimplify our pullout of Vietnam by blaming it solely on Jane Fonda and John Kerry. They were people who were at the forefront of the dissent and protests. They both proved to be fuel feeding the fires of dissent and protest with the MSM fanning the flames. An example; the Tet ’68 offensive was carefully and meticulously planned by Gen Giap and believed to be a tide turning blow to the American forces. At the completion of the offensive, his commanders reported back dismal failures – they had been decidedly defeated by the Americans. However, Walter Cronkite reported that the Tet offensive was a resounding success for the NVA and VC and in fact they had captured the US Embassy in Saigon. That was an outright falsehood – one VC had been shot just outside the embassy and that was as close as they got. The media elites had decided the US had suffered enough casualties in a useless war (never mind the millions of Vietnamese that didn’t want communism) and set about turning public opinion against the war. They succeeded because they were the only game in town and they had been fairly honest in their prior reporting of wars. I’m not stating anything here that you can’t find on the internet. I, too, happen to be a veteran of Vietnam as well as a career soldier and I hold some very strong opinions that have been validated by subsequent investigative journalism. Please give my regards to your dad and neighbor.
Posted by: Old Soldier at November 27, 2005 08:04 PM (9ABza)
20
I doubt we'll ever know the truth about the number of troops question. But there is a problem if we have to take towns twice, three, and four different times, if the borders are not secured, and if civilians feel the threat of force by insurgents is more powerful than the the threat of force by the Americans.
From what I have read, the core of the insurgency is Sunnis with ties to the old regime. They seem to be operating more out of nationalism and tribalism than jihadist ferver, but of course they work with foreign jihadists. Maybe money wouldn't do everything, but more should have been done to keep them from feeling alienated in the new Iraq.
I just talked to my dad about Tet. He was not in Vietnam yet, having been drafted in the fall of 1967 and still in boot camp. He said that Cronkite was indeed wrong when he said the war was lost. But according to my dad the reason Tet was such a watershed was that it exposed President Johnson's campaign of deception about the enemy we were facing. Support for the war stayed relatively strong- it was support for Johnson that eroded. After all, the public elected Nixon twice, the second time against a clear anti-war candidate.
In general I don't like tying political preferences to views about a war. My dad is Vietnam veteran who is proud of his service, but he's very liberal- he voted for Nader in 2000. I have an uncle on the other side of the family who is a huge Republican, and during Vietnam he used connections to get into the California national guard. Two of my older cousins were naval officers in Vietnam, one an underwater explosives specialist who is now a solid Republican, the other a moderate Democrat. I don't think people's attitudes towards the military are defined by their politics.
That neighbor of mine I mentioned (actually former neighbor since I recently moved) is a good example. He is very left-wing and very anti-war, partly I think because he feels his unit was betrayed and left behind in some weird situation when the war ended. He is a filmmaker by trade, and in the process of making a film about his unit's experience. Last year he gathered a bunch of the guys together and they traveled to Vietnam and he filmed them revisiting their past. He hasn't finished it yet, but it's pretty powerful from the interviews that he showed me. Everyone has their own take on the war-some guys are still angry, some are very proud, but what's great is that they respect each other's views, and don't see each other as spreading lies.
Now, I don't know your experience during the war, but it seems to me there is room for reasonable people to disagree. The same goes for this war. I don't agree with people who want to pull out right away, but they aren't unpatriotic or undermining the troops for wanting to do so. Cindy Sheehan is an idiot, and if our country can be undermined by somoen like her, then we don't deserve to win in the first place.
Posted by: Nate at November 28, 2005 02:02 AM (NOT0D)
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Goodbye, Mr. Miyagi
Pat Morita, a sickly child who was told he would never walk (and didn't until he was
eleven), later became the most famous fictional karate sensei in history as Mr. Miyagi. He
died of natural causes on Thanksgiving at his Los Angeles home. He was 73.
He will be missed.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:15 AM
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Pat Morita will be missed by many of the older crowd. He was a great mentor in the Karate Kid series, but I loved his humor in Happy Days. I always enjoyed films with Pat Morita. I'm sorry to hear of his passing.
Posted by: Old Soldier at November 25, 2005 10:27 PM (9ABza)
2
I'm sure Malkin wishes he died in the concentration camp, hey yoh!
Posted by: Wild Bill at November 26, 2005 08:38 PM (7euID)
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November 24, 2005
Think Progress Warns of Thanksgiving "Chemical Attack" by US Forces
Think Progress has intercepted the following communication and warns of
L-tryptophan deployment by U.S. Forces today, and called for our immediate withdrawal from both Iraq and
New Orleans.
This is thought to be a far more credible interpretation that their previous release discussed here.
PAAUZFH1 RUEOCSA6054 3252031-UUUU--RHMFIUU.
ZNR UUUUU ZOV RUEOCSA6054 RELAY OF RUEOMCE1058 3252025
P 211800Z NOV 05 PSN 250821H18
FM CJCS WASHINGTON DC
TO ALMILACT
INFO ZEN/JOINT STAFF WASHINGTON DC
BT
UNCLAS
QQQQ
SUBJ: CJCS-ALMILACT MESSAGE 15-05, THANKSGIVING 2005 UNCLASSIFIED//
UNCLAS
UNCLASSIFIED DTG 211800Z NOV 05
MSGID/GENADMIN/CJCS//
SUBJ/CJCS-ALMILACT MESSAGE 15-05, THANKSGIVING 2005//
GENTEXT/REMARKS/
THIS THANKSGIVING WE JOIN AMERICANS EVERYWHERE IN GIVING THANKS FOR THE MANY BLESSINGS WE ENJOY AS CITIZENS OF THIS GREAT NATION. THOSE FREEDOMS FOR WHICH WE GIVE THANKS, HOWEVER, CAME ABOUT ONLY THROUGH TREMENDOUS SACRIFICE.
NEARLY 400 YEARS AGO, THE PILGRIMS INAUGURATED THANKSGIVING AFTER SURVIVING THE FIRST HARSH WINTER AT PLYMOUTH. GEORGE WASHINGTON PROCLAIMED THE FIRST NATIONAL DAY OF THANKSGIVING DURING THE EARLY STRUGGLES OF THE REPUBLIC, AND ABRAHAM LINCOLN LATER REVIVED THE TRADITION FOLLOWING THE DARK DAYS OF THE CIVIL WAR. ON THIS THANKSGIVING DAY, WE ARE AGAIN ENGAGED IN A GREAT STRUGGLE, THIS TIME AGAINST TERRORISTS WHO THREATEN THE VALUES WE HOLD SO DEAR. LIKE THOSE BEFORE YOU, A NEW GENERATION OF COURAGEOUS SOLDIERS, SAILORS, AIRMEN, MARINES, COAST GUARDSMEN AND MERCHANT MARINES CONTINUES THE NOBLE TRADITION OF SERVICE TO THE NATION. TO EACH OF YOU IN UNIFORM, WE ARE THANKFUL FOR YOUR DEDICATION AND SELFLESSNESS.
MANY WILL PAUSE ON THIS SPECIAL DAY, AND GIVE THANKS FOR THE FREEDOM YOUR SERVICE MAKES POSSIBLE.
ON THIS SPECIAL HOLIDAY, A DAY WHEN DUTY WILL KEEP MANY OF YOU AWAY FROM HOME AND LOVED ONES, THE JOINT CHIEFS JOIN ME IN SENDING YOU AND YOUR FAMILIES OUR BEST WISHES FOR A HAPPY THANKSGIVING.
SIGNED: PETER PACE, GENERAL, UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS, CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF//
BT
Happy Thanksgiving to all Americans, no matter where in the world you may be.
Note: N.Z. Bear has a Thanksgiving-related topic page up.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:25 AM
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