December 31, 2005
Happy New Year
I'll be "enjoying" a nasty case of strep throat that has more or less ruined my holiday trip to the in-laws in New York, but I sincerely hope that everyone has a Happy New Year... well except for liberals, who I expect will have another long disappointing year of paranoia, outrage, and failure.
Hey, everybody can't be happy...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
01:51 PM
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All kinds of weird stuff going around the Big Apple ... my husband has something that's mimicking a mild flu.
Happy - and healthy - New Year's to you and yours.
Posted by: Maggie at December 31, 2005 08:02 PM (QKXCW)
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Hope you feel better soon. Happy New Year to you and yours!
Posted by: seawitch at December 31, 2005 08:18 PM (nFpTw)
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So sorry you don't feel well. Hope you feel better soon. Best wishes for a fantastic 2006!
Posted by: Lone Pony at December 31, 2005 11:27 PM (X+UH7)
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Cheers, CY! Wishing you a happy, healthy, and prosperous 2006!
Posted by: lady redhawk at January 01, 2006 12:06 AM (n8ZLN)
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Kiss Kiss ~ Happy New Year!
Pebble
Posted by: PebblePie at January 01, 2006 02:57 AM (LItBt)
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Wishing you a very happy, prosperous and healthy New Year. God bless you. Keep up the good work.
Posted by: Old Soldier at January 01, 2006 07:56 AM (9ABza)
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I too am under the weather, but I don't think it is anything serious. I only had one small drink last night so I know that's not it. (I'm not much of a drinker)
I hope you're right about the liberal new year. You probably are.
Posted by: Shoprat at January 01, 2006 07:57 AM (I6DQp)
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Here is hoping you feel better soon and may this be a year of trial and tribulations for those of the little “d.”
Posted by: Edd at January 01, 2006 11:47 AM (cQTd1)
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Yuck! I've had pneumonia over the holidays - no fun at all. Still recouperating.
Hope you have a Happy New Year all the same!
Athbhliain faoi mhaise duit
(Irish for Have a Prosperous New Year)
Posted by: Beth at January 01, 2006 03:24 PM (X6tm3)
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CY, Happy New Year to you and yours; the flu is temporary, having anarcho-marxist-leftie-liberal-Che syndrome could be terminal!
Posted by: Tom TB at January 02, 2006 08:31 AM (ywZa8)
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Get well my friend. Had walking pneumonia for the past month - you are in worst shape. Keeping you in my prayers.
Posted by: scmommy at January 03, 2006 01:17 AM (JyQt4)
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Get well soon, we miss your work!
Posted by: Ray Robison at January 03, 2006 03:38 PM (CdK5b)
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Happy New Year!! Get well soon!
Posted by: Mary Ann at January 03, 2006 08:25 PM (Kvxj3)
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We miss you Bob. Hope you feel better soon.
Posted by: Lone Pony at January 03, 2006 09:22 PM (WilwK)
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Hope you're getting better-- my own challenge this holiday season was pneumonia.
Not fun being sick over the holidays!
Happy new year!
Posted by: Fat Bastard at January 04, 2006 02:00 PM (n2Agn)
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December 29, 2005
The "Ghost Coast" Is Not Forgotten
Four months after Hurrican Katrina slammed ashore, the catastrophic destruction of the Mississippi and Alabama Gulf coasts have been all but forgotten by the media (and
Wikipedia).
On December 14, the Sun-Herald posted an editorial, Mississippi's Invisible Coast asking for at least some media attention by focused on those outside of New Orleans.
It begins:
As Aug. 29 recedes into the conscious time of many Americans, the great storm that devastated 70 miles of Mississippi's Coast, destroying the homes and lives of hundreds of thousands, fades into a black hole of media obscurity.
Never mind that, if taken alone, the destruction in Mississippi would represent the single greatest natural disaster in 229 years of American history. The telling of Katrina by national media has created the illusion of the hurricane's impact on our Coast as something of a footnote.
The awful tragedy that befell New Orleans as a consequence of levee failures at the time of Katrina, likewise, taken by itself, also represents a monumental natural disaster. But, of course, the devastation there, and here, were not separate events, but one, wrought by the Aug. 29 storm.
There is no question that the New Orleans story, like ours, is a compelling, ongoing saga as its brave people seek to reclaim those parts of the city lost to the floods.
But it becomes more and more obvious that to national media, New Orleans is THE story - to the extent that if the Mississippi Coast is mentioned at all it is often in an add-on paragraph that mentions "and the Gulf Coast" or "and Mississippi and Alabama."
Read the whole thing.
The mainstream media has once again dropped the ball. It is up to us to tell the tale of a battered land and a proud people outside of New Orleans.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:49 AM
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Thanks for posting this. It is gratfefully appreciated by us in Mississippi. All of us are trying to deal with it in our ways.
Posted by: seawitch at December 29, 2005 11:36 AM (naNih)
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Well I for one wish all of you down there the best of luck/health and hope 2006 brings you a better year.
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 29, 2005 12:56 PM (BuYeH)
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I have been following the
reconstruction and relief efforts for quite some time, and the whole issue with insurance proceeds is something that I predicted
early on would be a major obstacle to rebuilding (though I know I am not alone in recognizing the problems with flood insurance or the lack thereof among the thousands of affected businesses and residences).
Posted by: lawhawk at December 29, 2005 02:11 PM (k1QYf)
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I live close to the water and am required to carry flood insurance, my neighbor behind me who lives just as close wasn't required (but carry it anyway). Even if a flood wiped out my area I still wouldn't trust the insurance company not to file bankrupcy letting the government bail them out before having to pay on the numerous policies that would be filed. They have done it along the Mississippi before and would probably do it again. Just like arguing that it was or wasn't flood damage if it was storm pushed waves. Still sounds like a flood to me though.
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 29, 2005 02:36 PM (JYeBJ)
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While I feel for the people of the Gulf Coast and do not approve of the "shell game" played by insurance companies with their customers, the real problem is the whole system has made owning coastal property deceptively cheap for too long. Fifty years ago, if you had a place at the beach, it was a bungalow of wood and cinder block built on stilts to avoid tidal surge. Today, people build 5,000 square foot homes as close to the dunes as they can and fill them with nice furniture. Coastal property is always vulnerable and the potential for loss should never be forgotten. We need to rethink the way we build on the coast, as well as how we price disaster insurance for those who are brave enough to still undertake it.
Posted by: Gus at December 29, 2005 09:27 PM (StGgw)
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The Mississippi Coast does not have dunes like Alabama and Florida. The majority of homes that were on the beach front had been there for around 100 years. Some had been there for almost 150 years. Most were 12 to 14 feet above sea level.
The insurance dispute is homeowners are trying to get storm surges reclassified from a flood. It started in Florida and has been carried to Mississppi. Also, in Mississippi some homeowners are saying that there was substantial wind damage to their homes before the storm surge came in and they may be correct. Some videos indicate the surge coming in after the winds had already been 130+ for at least a couple of hours.
Posted by: seawitch at December 29, 2005 11:05 PM (8sZm0)
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We have the same issues here in the Florida panhandle from IVAN, the insurance companies are doing everything they can to slither out of paying even a year after IVAN.
Posted by: Joe at December 29, 2005 11:37 PM (sNRFh)
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Here's a good one from my sister's insurance company. She had a lot of roof damage and one room recieved water damage from the rain pouring in. On the first analysis from the insurance company on the breakdown of repairs, they said she was allowed to hire a carpenter for $1.00 an hour. She was not affected in any manner by the storm surge.
We have the same insurance company. I told her at the beginning of the claims process she wouldn't have a thing to worry about because during Elena, my ex and I had part of our roof blown off and our insurance agent had a check for the repairs in a week. It was the same insurance company.
It's an added aggrevation to have to fight the insurance companies for a settlement that will allow all necessary repairs to be done.
Posted by: seawitch at December 30, 2005 07:20 AM (nFpTw)
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Seawitch, my heart and prayers go out to you, your family, friends and neighbors. It's one thing to lose your home or have it severely damaged and quite another to have to legally battle your insurance company for a settlement. God bless you all.
Posted by: Old Soldier at December 30, 2005 07:40 AM (9ABza)
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Thanks for posting this. Of course there are terrible problems in N.O., but Mississippi and Alabama have been nearly forgotten.
Posted by: Mary Ann at January 03, 2006 08:28 PM (Kvxj3)
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December 28, 2005
The Powers of President George
What this NSA executive order matter will boil down to in the end is a
separation of powers issue.
Did Congress have the legal authority to bind the Office of the Presidency in conducting warrantless searches performed for national security reasons, stripping the executive branch of an inherent constitutional power?
Every President from the dawn of international wire communications well over 100 years ago until 1978 assumed this right, and the courts have always deferred to this particular power inherent to the Presidency. This is supported by case law and precedent, and is summed up in the five-page Department of Justice briefing (PDF) delivered last week. In short, the Department of Justice seems willing to make the case that Bush was well within his constitutional powers. If anything, Congress may have exceeded their constitutional powers in passing FISA.
Even after passing FISA, Carter himself did not feel strictly bound by it, nor has any President since, from Reagan, to George H. W. Bush, Clinton, to George W. Bush. They have all asserted (and over the past two weeks, their DoJ attorneys have as well) that the Office of the Presidency has the Constitutional authority to authorize warrantless intercepts of foreign intelligence. This power has been assumed by every president of the modern age before them, dating back, presumably to the Great Eastern's success in 1866 of laying the first successful transatlantic telegraph cable. From Johnson, then, through Grant, Hayes, Garfield, Arthur, Cleveland, Harrison, Cleveland (again), McKinley, Teddy Roosevelt, and Taft, through Wilson, Harding, Coolidge, Hoover, to FDR and on to Truman, Eisenhower, John Fitzgerald Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford and into the Carter administration, the Presidency has had the inherent and unchallenged power to conduct warrantless surveillance of foreign powers for national security reasons.
This is a simple, unassailable fact, not matter how loudly demagogues shriek.
FISA is a case of Congress infringing upon the inherent power of the executive branch, and if it comes up as a direct constitutional challenge, FISA will most likely be struck down as Congress infringing upon the constitutional authority of the executive branch to perform foreign intelligence functions.
By creating and using this executive order, Bush merely used a right the executive branch has always maintained since the very first "President George" in 1789.
Note: While I've made the specific case of warrantless wiretapping authority by the President back to Andrew Johnson in 1866, Robert F. Turner in WSJ.com's OpinionJournal takes the case back 216 years to another George's Administration, and beyond that back to Ben Franklin the Continental Congress in 1776.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Just a quick question. Warrantless wiretapping of whom? Because I don't think the stink is about wiretapping foreign governments or agents, but spying on American citizens. I just didn't see that particular issue addressed. And I'm not sure how Executive Order 12139 helps the case since it requires the AG to certify that an American citizen is not the subject of the wiretapping.
Posted by: Chalkboard at December 28, 2005 05:48 PM (Ob/Pa)
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Ditto the above question.
Nobody is discussing whether the president can wiretap foreigners or foreign governments. It's American citizens in America that the uproar is about.
Hey, you're not erecting a straw man are you Confederate Yankee? I thought better of you.
Posted by: Ben at December 28, 2005 06:08 PM (cQlBT)
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It seems like both of you would benefit from reading facts.
As all of the NSA scans are conducted offshore,they seem to satisfy both the 4th Amendment's border search exemption and the President's inherent Constitutional authority to conduct foreign intelligence surveillence.
Next.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 28, 2005 06:31 PM (0fZB6)
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there are dozens of instances when US citizens can be legally searched and surveilled without warrants. by which i mean to say that it ios NOT an absolute unlimited right. MOST IMPORTANTLY, searches must ne reasonable.
The POTUS can also order searches and survelliance this on his own - WITHOUT A COURT-ORSER - when he intends to collect intel as CinC and when the US person is a suspected agent of the enemy.
this is a fact asserted by many presidents.
see here for long post with links:
http://astuteblogger.blogspot.com/2005/12/bottom-line-bush-authorization-of-nsa.html
ALSO REMEMBER: FISA essentially limits only US AG's powers.
NO STATUTE can limit the constitutionally defined powers of the POTUS.
SCOTUS, the federal district courts, 2 recent Democrat presidents, a famous liberal law professor, and a former Clinton USA AG's have concur.
Posted by: reliapundit at December 28, 2005 10:55 PM (5JJoD)
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Constitution? What's that? We have a Constitution?!?
If I didn't know better I would think someone was opposed to the dissolution of federalism and an end to judicial oversight.
Posted by: Ryan at December 29, 2005 03:47 AM (ERQ0E)
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Wake up people, this is almost 2006, We have to use whatever means necessary to gather intellegence. We are dealing with a enemy that is very well educated (probably in some liberal U.S. college)well trained and financed. Every President has used this executive power. So stop whining about it. All of this is politics, the lefties are trying tear down the right and it's not working. Get over it!! The Gov't is not going to kick down your door. Face it, if you are a U.S. citizen or LEGAL resident you have a duty and responsibility to obey the laws of this country. If you are not doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about. Honestly do you think they are listening to you and I on the phone. They don't have the manpower. They have their targets and they are pursuing them aggressivly. What happens when they bring down an airliner or blow up a tunnel or detonate a nuclear device here in the United States? You clowns are going to be the first to PISS AND MOAN that homeland security was not doing their job and the Administration is at fault. BLAME GEORGE!!!!! When is the left going to stand up and take responsibility for their in-action. At least WE are trying to do something besides hand wringing. And don't reply to this with the usual "What about our right's" crap. This is not as Retired Navy puts it "Nirvana" this is the real world with evil,ruthless, vile people that do not think twice about butchering you, me and every other man, woman or child in this country. You people disgust me that you are worried about some "terrrorists right's" that might have been violated. Oh, by the way I am not a racist by any stretch of the imagination. But if Ali, or Muhhamed feel that they are being persecuted they need to think about all the people that have fought and died so he or she could live in a FREE Nation.
Posted by: Faithful Patriot at December 29, 2005 08:24 AM (y67bA)
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Sometimes we have to choose the lesser of two evils. Bush and his people gathering intelligence on Americans or more terrorist attacks,possibly with dirty bombs. To me this is a no brainer unless you are not taking the possibility of a terrorist attack seriously.
Posted by: Shoprat at December 29, 2005 08:39 AM (I6DQp)
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SLIGHTLY OT:
The aclu is running an ad comparing nixon to w.
the left trots out nixon as if he was really the mostr evil think since mccarthy.
nixon was a fabulously great presient. one of our best ever.
in five years he:
1 - ended the draft and invented the all volunteer military
2 - entirelky vienamiozied the war; on 3/29/73 we had ZERO ground combat troop in vietnam. south vietnam didn't fall until 1975, and only then when the dem doves in congress abandoned our ally by pulloing the plug on financioal support. like they did a few years later with the contras. and would dom now to the iraqwis and the afghanis.
3 - signed the clean air/clean water acts and invented the EPA
4 - appointed rehnquist to the scotus
5 - signed the FIRST nuke arms treay with the USSR
6 - invented detente and put pressure on the Soviets to release the rtefuseniks and to allow Jewish immigration - which contributed mightily to the dwonfall of the USSR
7 - OPENED UP CHINA
8 - took us off the gold standard
and on an on.
nixon did more good in 5 years than bush senior and bj clinton did in 12. and we are STILL benefitting from nixon's presidency.
OKAY: he effed up bigtime with the watergate coverup.
on balance: he was still GREAT! worth it. we were LUCKY he was elected and relected.
LOOKIT: i've been a registered dem since 1974. i wathced ALL th watergate hearings. i went to more anti-0war protests then you've seen telephone poles.
NOW, i can see that the anti-war movewment weas BAD, and the war was honorable.
when the dem doves of congress - the mcgovernites who once again control the party - when they pulled the plug on spouth vietnam, this led directly to the boat people FLEEING vietnam, the rise of Pol Pot and 4 million murdered by marxists in se asia.
and 35 yeasr of marxist slavery for 65 million vietnamese.
the peace movement was EVIL. nixon was great - flawwed but great.
BTW: the peace movement WAS REALLY RUN BY THE COMMIES. folks like A.N.S.W.E.R.
anti-Americans.
i knpow: i was there.
Posted by: reliapundit at December 29, 2005 01:26 PM (Mpp8f)
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More power to the NSA! I like their recent 'cookie strategy', but
the coffee incidents may give the public a bad taste.
Posted by: Todd at December 29, 2005 07:50 PM (Jcj9n)
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We've already lost one major American city this year and a major portion of our coast. And we seem to be carrying on just fine. Why so scared of terrorists?
Posted by: CDB at December 30, 2005 08:14 PM (Vdm21)
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Was that a rhetorical question, CDB, or are you really seeking some answers? I notice that even you email address is bogus. Maybe you are too.
Are we just expected to ignore the very real terrorist threats and hope they'll just go away through some magic? Do you have to have the country suffer from something much, much worse than 9/11 before you will have any concern for the welfare of others? Or are you so self-centered and selfish that you are willing to play the odds and hope only other people will be the ones to suffer?
You are a pathetic human being if that is your philosophy, Sir - and an even worse example of an American. We know your type. As soon as there is anything to threaten you personally you will run and squeal like a helpless rabbit, all the time complaining that Bush didn't save your precious butt.
Pathetic.
Posted by: Retired Spy at December 30, 2005 10:18 PM (AaKND)
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I wonder how one determines the citizenship of someone when a foreign agent is communicating with someone in the US? Are the more sensitive among us saying we are to ignore intelligence that may save lives because of some legalism. Strange when I read the Federalist Papers it is clear the founders intended the president to be solely in charge of intelligence and its conduct.
Were the doubters to be heeded we would be back in the days when Sec of State when informed that State was reading the Japanese diplomatic traffic said"gentlemen do not read others private mail."
Such beliefs do not protect our freedoms but will insure the destruction of this nation.
Posted by: TJ Jackson at December 30, 2005 11:38 PM (BXmxw)
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I work in a printing shop. Imagine some terrorist calls our business and orders business cards. Then imagine our shop is put under surveilance. 1/2 hour later we would be taken off the list because it would be obvious to anyone listening in to our phone calls that we are just too goofy to be terrorists. These people have better things to do than to listen to my boss tell stale jokes. Neither do they have the time to spend listening to my clever repartee.
In that scenario who was hurt.
Hopefully the terrorist in the long run.
Posted by: prying1 at December 31, 2005 03:26 AM (yegxa)
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I was just reflecting again on what
CDB wrote yesterday, and I have become even more incensed - infuriated, actually.
In the immediate aftermath of 9/11 we were shocked by the attack on innocent people. We watched on TV as people plunged to their deaths. We pulled together as a nation. We got behind the President.
So what happened to now make this George Bush's war on terrorism - the Republican's war on terrorism and in Iraq? The Democrats and the terrorist sympathizers on the Left surely have short memories. Their focus now is only on how to win back seats in Congress and to put some self-serving nitwit like Vietnam war traitor John Kerry in the White House.
It isn't
us as a nation any more as the Dems see it. The Republicans and GWB are their enemy - not al Qaeda and terrorism.
Then I read something written by the pond scum likes of a coward who just calls himself/herself
CDB and I want to barf. We lost a city (New Orleans) and we seem to be doing OK? Huh? Some 1000 human lives we lost, countless thousands became refugees in their own country, the economies of Mississippi and Louisianna were devastated, and the effect spread across the entire nation. We lost over 3000 innocent humans on 9/11, and the aftermath brought key airlines to their knees, and the entire economy suffered. No skin off
CDB's butt.
Why does all this really sicken me? It's people like
CDB who sit back and have no compassion for anyone else. It didn't affect him/her! "What? Me Worry?" I wonder how much money or personal sacrifice the
CDB Dirtbag contributed to Katrina victims.
It is simply disgusting that we have to occupy the same country with the likes of this person. This person is lower than whale sh*t in my opinion.
Posted by: Retired Spy at December 31, 2005 10:21 AM (AaKND)
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Retired Spy,
I tend to agree with you. Either this guy was trying to let of a sick joke or has no compassion. I spent 20 years in the Navy for all Americans, too bad I couldn't pick and choose. But then again, a little dirversity can be a good thing. Even scum like this may help others put things in perspective. One can only hope.
Prying1 had a good point, The govt won't be spying on everyone, they just don't have the resources.
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 31, 2005 11:32 AM (k86Sy)
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Here's a pointless exercise, but I'll try anyway (no spam please kind, intelligent republicans)
Let me get this straight: you agree that Shrub should have used the legal channels that would have accomplished his objective, but that his violation of the law is not out of the norm for presidents, and his crime is shielded by the separation of powers doctrine? That's the weirdest defense I've heard yet.
Note that you are not aquitting him, you are merely saying that he is above the law he violated. Given the treatment Mr. Clinton received, this is hypocrisy of the 1st order.
Here's my point:how exactly is your argument in the defense of the people? It is evident your rhetoric is designed to protect King George, not the freedoms of the people.
For the record, it is not a matter of W's supposed reasons for invading our privacy--there is no end to the justifications provided by the powerful.
I value personal liberty over national security, especially when one realizes the multitude of bogeymen erected over the years to cow us and further .
Yes it's a big, bad, scary world, but I'd rather not live in a police state, thank you very much.
I'll take privacy over security anyday.
The rest of you fearmongers need to grow up and quit listening to the GOP propaganda machine. Do you love the USA or what?
I doubt you'll listen to me (I'm probably a liberal, right?), but listen to the words of one of America's greatest generals:
"There is no security in this life. There is only opportunity."
"The powers in charge keep us in a perpetual state of fear keep us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor with the cry of grave national emergency. Always there has been some terrible evil to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it by furnishing the exorbitant sums demanded. Yet, in retrospect, these disasters seem never to have happened, seem never to have been quite real."
- General Douglas MacArthur
Posted by: child at January 02, 2006 07:55 PM (KQb8R)
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I guess you earned the moniker "child" for a very good reason: the ability to comprehend a complex argument seems to elude you.
Bush did use FISA - more than any other president, for that matter.
And Bush broke no laws. Period. The FISA court acknoledged the power of the office of the Presidency in Sealed case 2002. He is not above the law, but his powers, in this respect, exceed the limited powers of FISA.
I don't know why that is so hard for some to understand.
Your comment that you value "personal liberty over national security" proves your inability to reason as an adult: without national security providing for our rights as a free nation, you would have no personal liberties.
Not one.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at January 03, 2006 04:17 PM (g5Nba)
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Thank you, CY. It took a great deal of self control to not respond to the
child to point out the utter foolishness expressed in his/her preferences for personal liberty over national security.
You did it so well ....
Posted by: Retired Spy at January 03, 2006 05:55 PM (AaKND)
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Gosh, "back in the day" it was the libertarians on the right who reminded us that "those who would trade essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither."
What has
happened to you people?
Posted by: Fat Bastard at January 03, 2006 08:34 PM (DN5jk)
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Fat Bastard:
I think the real issue here is the relative value of
personal privacy versus
national security. The entire federal government does not have the manpower to spy on more than a minute fraction of the U.S. population, and to do so would completely ignore the real targets of this specific NSA operation - international communications between known members of the international terrorist organizations. That does not even take into account the massive requirements for targeting international and internal communications in and between the countries of all other potential adversaries throughout the world.
Your Irish Whiskey and pot stash and collection of blowup dolls are safe from federal scrutiny by the NSA. Your privacy is safe - as long as you do not communicate with al Qaeda.
Posted by: Retired Spy at January 03, 2006 09:28 PM (AaKND)
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Wiretapping is perfectly legal... with a warrant. These warrants are not hard to get, and can even be applied for AFTER the fact. All you need is a reason, and not even a good one at that. What bothers me is why was it done without using the secret courts specifically set up to allow this? It's one thing to talk about freedom, but to be so willing to give that freedom up for the perception of security... just doesn't make sense to me.
Terrorists are bad, I get it. But if their goal was to change our way of life and keep us in fear, why let them? People are die for our freedom, yet we would give those freedoms up because we are afraid.
Posted by: Erik at January 04, 2006 03:53 AM (pnHfy)
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Thank you, Retired Spy, for the mindless ad hominem; and let me respond: your mother doesn't like being referred to as a "blow up doll."
That said: national security as defined by whom? There are those who would say that Cindy Sheehan and Michael Moore are threats to national security.
And, for that matter-- FISA provides a legal means of doing wiretaps for national security. Why was that bypassed? And why does this not bother those of you who consider yourselves (if there are any such commenters on this blog) libertarian?
Posted by: Fat Bastard at January 04, 2006 08:46 AM (n2Agn)
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Unfortunately,
Fat Bastard, my mother passed away two years ago. If you had any strength of perception at all, you would conclude that the mother of a retired person, using standard actuarial data, would not likely still be among the living. You are not too perceptive, are you?
It seems you know nothing about terminology or procedure, either - nor does Erik. The NSA
does not do wiretaps. That is something the
FBI is tasked to perform - under warrant. The NSA targets
international communications - not domestic communications - carried via electromagnetically generated signals that are transmitted through the atmosphere. There are no wires involved, nor are there wiretaps.
Domestic communications between foreign al Qaeda operatives and persons inside the United States are not targeted directly against transmissions emanating from inside the United States. American citizens are not being spied upon, as some would suggest.
Some like Erik are referring to fear, but it is your fear that drives you to believe that there is some conspiracy against your privacy, created by some evil person known as George W. Bush, President of the United States.
Fear? You are just plain paranoid.
par·a·noi·a Audio pronunciation of "paranoia" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-noi)
n.
1. A psychotic disorder characterized by delusions of persecution with or without grandeur, often strenuously defended with apparent logic and reason.
2. Extreme, irrational distrust of others.
Your substances and toys are still safe.
Posted by: Retired Spy at January 04, 2006 09:22 AM (AaKND)
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Sorry about that-- lost me own mum 17 years ago and my dad passed a few months ago. Nonetheless, at the very least it's poor taste to respond to a legit question with adhominem attack.
Now then, of course, if you define it as "wiretapping" as we always understood it in the olden days of Ma Bell, perhaps you're correct. But do you really expect anyone to believe No Such Agency, with the most sophisticated elint and comint facilities in the world (mmm, mass quantities of computer power!) DOESN'T LISTEN TO TELEPHONE CONVERSATIONS?
Puh-lease. That doesn't even pass the smell test.
In fact, as I understand it the entire kerfluffle is driven by the fact that No Such Agency has listened to American citizens phone conversations without warrant.
Finally-- to chide me for my supposed "paranoia" is closely akin to saying "if you haven't done anything wrong you have nothing to hide."
But then, I don't figure you to be a libertarian; you sound much more like a garden variety authoritarian (with a dash of Islamo-paranoia).
We're not talking about my substances or my toys (and I'm sure you have a whole rack of various guns handy, don't you?), we're talking about whether the Executive can spy on American citizens without Judicial oversight.
Just remember this-- if you wouldn't want the same powers in the hands of a President Hillary Clinton, you're a hypocrite for demanding and supporting them for Mr. Bush.
Of course, you'd probably argue that anyone the Executive has interest in is, by definition, a terrorist or a terrorist sympathiser.
Posted by: Fat Bastard at January 04, 2006 09:58 AM (n2Agn)
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While many defenders of the current administration claim partisan bias or “liberal brain disorder” in the response to the latest in a string of Bushco scandals, what can these defenders say when confronted with the following observations from their own party? (Long list of quotes to follow)
Why do these Republicans hate America?
* Sens. Chuck Hagel (R-NE) and Olympia Snowe (R-ME),
"No president is ever above the law. ... We are a nation of laws. You cannot avoid or dismiss a law."
* Senate Judiciary Committee chairman Arlen Specter (R-PA)
“the president's decision to inform a handful of members of Congress was sufficient . . .I think it does not constitute a check and balance,. . .you can't have the administration and a select number of members alter the law. It can't be done.''
* Sen. Richard Lugar (R-IN),
”I think we want to see what in the course of time really works best, and the FISA act has worked pretty well from the time of President Carter's day to the current time.”
* Sen. Susan Collins (R-ME),
surveillance abuses 'extremely troubling. . . warrants further inquiry by Congress”
* Sen. John E. Sununu (R-NH)
"it is a little bit of a stretch for the administration to say the surveillance program was authorized by the post-Sept. 11 resolution . . .This is the kind of activity that should be approved in statute."
* Sen. Larry Craig (R-ID) and Rep. C.L.Otter (R-ID)
“there is a clearly established process of judicial oversight through the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) Court to obtain warrants for such wiretapping. . . the White House appears to have circumvented that process.
"The Founders envisioned a nation where people's privacy was respected and the government's business was open,. . . these actions turn that vision on its head. If the government is willing to bend the rules on this issue, how are we supposed to believe it won't abuse the powers granted by the Patriot Act?"
* Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) "I don't know of any legal basis to go around" FISA's requirement the government obtain a warrant to conduct domestic surveillance of Americans . . . We can't become an outcome-based democracy. Even in a time of war, you have to follow the process, because that's what a democracy is all about: a process.”
* Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) “I know that the situation has changed since September 11th. So the equation has changed. Why did the president choose not to use FISA? That's a legitimate question.”
* Former Rep. Bob Barr (R-GA) “Exactly like Nixon before him, Bush has ordered the National Security Agency (NSA) to conduct electronic snooping on communications of various people, including U.S. citizens. That action is unequivocally contrary to the express and implied requirements of federal law that such surveillance of U.S. persons inside the U.S. (regardless of whether their communications are going abroad) must be preceded by a court order.
Alleged associates of al-Qaeda are today's targets of that breathtaking assertion of presidential power. Tomorrow, it may be your phone calls or e-mails that will be swept up into our electronic infrastructure and secretly kept in a growing file attached to your name. Then everyone you contact could become a suspect, a link in an ever lengthening chain that would ensnare us all in the files of the largest database ever created through unlimited electronic spying that touches every aspect of our lives.
* Bruce Fein, “It's more dangerous than Clinton's lying under oath because it jeopardizes our democratic dispensation and civil liberties for the ages. It would set a precedent that, as [former Supreme Court Justice] Robert Jackson said, would lie around like a loaded gun, able to be used indefinitely for any future occupant.”
“President Bush presents a clear and present danger to the rule of law. He cannot be trusted to conduct the war against global terrorism with a decent respect for civil liberties and checks against executive abuses. Congress should swiftly enact a code that would require Mr. Bush to obtain legislative consent for every counterterrorism measure that would materially impair individual freedoms. . . .why is he so carefree about risking the liberties of both the living and those yet to be born by flouting the Constitution's separation of powers and conflating constructive criticism with treason?
Congress should insist the president cease the spying unless or until a proper statute is enacted or face possible impeachment. The Constitution's separation of powers is too important to be discarded in the name of expediency.”
*William Safire: "the president can't seize dictatorial power. And a lot of my friends looked at me like I was going batty. But now we see this argument over excessive security, and I'm with the critics on that."
* George F. Will: “the president's decision to authorize the NSA's surveillance without the complicity of a court or Congress was a mistake. Perhaps one caused by this administration's almost metabolic urge to keep Congress unnecessarily distant and hence disgruntled.
* Robert A. Levy, a senior fellow in constitutional studies at the libertarian Cato Institute and a Federalist Society member: "The text of FISA is unambiguous: "A person is guilty of an offense if he intentionally engages in electronic surveillance ... except as authorized by statute." That provision covers communications from or to U.S. citizens or permanent resident aliens in the United States. Moreover, Title III (the Wiretap Act) further provides that "procedures in this chapter and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 shall be the exclusive means by which electronic surveillance ... may be conducted."
Accordingly, warrants would be required for law enforcement purposes and, therefore, warrantless surveillance absent an authorizing statute would violate the FISA requirement."
_________
So I guess all these rightwingers hate the President and are conspiracy nuts too?
It is apparent who is playing partisan here, and who really cares about America.
National Security means securing the nation, and not only in the physical sense. A significant part of our national character is freedom from the sort of authoritarian intrusions some of you are so willing to let the current President get away with.
So if you really care about securing our nation, you cannot pick and choose the parts you want to defend. Our personal liberty is essential to our identity. We can defend our borders and our personal freedoms at the same time.
Republicans, do not compromise and sell us out now. The President does NOT have unchecked power, regardless of his justifications.
Republicans, at this moment, America needs you. History depends on you, not the minority parties.
Posted by: child at January 04, 2006 12:47 PM (KQb8R)
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Child,
Please refrain from comment bombing. Provide links to the quotes elsewhere, or more finely tune your thought process, but do not spam the comments in this manner again. Is that clear?
Back to the task at hand...
For all the wasted pixels, thse comments can be refuted easily with two very brief, very obvious comments.
When were these comments made?
You will find that most if not all were made in the opening days of the "scandal" when little was known. Most of the skittish RINOs you listed reacted by what they thought their handlers suggested, and have since backed away from these positions. Will, who I generally respect but who has be "mailing it in" since before the botched Harriet Miers SC nomination, also wrote at this time, as did Safire and Levy, correct?
The longer this drags on and the more information comes to light, it appears obvious that the
NY Times hurt the interests of our national security apparatus through what I will charitiably describe as a mixture of ignorance, malice, and greed. Time (and the on-going Justice Department investigation) may prove I was wrong to give the Time credit for being ignorant instead of greedy and malicious.
You will be hard pressed to find these people holding those same positions today.
Who made these comments, and why?
No, in this instance I'm not referring to the RINO tendencies of these politicians, but instead to the simple fact that these are uniformly Senators and Congressmen, with huge egos, who like to have their names in the paper on on hand, and hate to have their power disputed on the other. When reporters come at them with half the facts and ask them leading questions about the Executive Branch "ignoring" something created by the Legislative Branch, what exactly do you think their gut response will be?
Again, note the fact that once facts have emerged, these easily ruffled Senators have quietly slipped away from their earlier statments.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at January 04, 2006 01:20 PM (g5Nba)
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Inherent powers or abuse of powers? What was our country originally based on? Paranoid or hypervigilent? (look it up! it saves lives.)If it was all about terrorist, than why the interest in porn sites? Child molesters receive the least amount of jail time compared to other offences. Bye the way, the only reason i am writing today is not just to bicker back and forth with people who do not understand their constitution. Think about it, why was the constitution created and why are we here! PLEASE MR.PRESIDENT READ ME!! Will we (you) be able to to jump in a boat to a new land and kill off everyone(indians "which contradicts the purpose of the constitution in the first place") for the sake of freedom? Freedom of expression, freedom of religion, freedom of speech etc.. can we as Americans actually over through our own government when it becomes "wrong"? What rights do you really have? You have all kinds of rights as long as you CONFORM!! do what i say and only what i say or you will be persecuted. Think about it, WHO ARE WE to say what is right or wrong for another country, when we don't have that right in our own? The President says "it's OK to spy" in the name of terrorism. Yet, this bull about porn sites is going on. Also, democrats are no longer allowed to speak their mind(in fear someone may listen)," we're over in iraq for the oil". Any college classroom teaching gov., constitutional law, criminal justice etc., will teach you that WE do not have a " BILL OF RIGHTS". We HAVE a "bill of restrictions". It describes things you can not do! That goes for your president also! this is why we are supposed to have "checks and balances" but, when everyone is on the same team that concept doesn't work. When people in our own gov.(whether we agree or disagree) are told they can no longer speak their mind in fear of terrorism you should be concerned. The only thing to fear is fear it self. Do not let it distort the truth. There are two kinds of wrongs, one is prohibited the other is wrong in and of itself.
Posted by: terry at January 20, 2006 11:04 AM (hLEmE)
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Cheering for the Wrong Team
Like addicts jonesing for a fix, James Risen and Eric Lichtblau of the
NY Times just can't help themselves:
Defense lawyers in some of the country's biggest terrorism cases say they plan to bring legal challenges to determine whether the National Security Agency used illegal wiretaps against several dozen Muslim men tied to Al Qaeda.
The lawyers said in interviews that they wanted to learn whether the men were monitored by the agency and, if so, whether the government withheld critical information or misled judges and defense lawyers about how and why the men were singled out.
The expected legal challenges, in cases from Florida, Ohio, Oregon and Virginia, add another dimension to the growing controversy over the agency's domestic surveillance program and could jeopardize some of the Bush administration's most important courtroom victories in terror cases, legal analysts say.
If I understand things correctly (and let's be honest, no blogger nor journalist has seen the executive order), the President's order was for national security-related wiretaps, not criminal-prosecution-related wiretaps.
Odds are that all of those terrorists convicted were done so using information from criminal wiretaps obtained via 5,645 requests that were made to FISA courts. This distinction is an important one, and if accurate, utterly undermines the case made by Risen and Lichtblau.
Woe be to Arthur Ochs "Pinch" Sulzberger.
His reporters are putting the paper in a position where casual (and many not so casual) readers are going to think that the Times utter disregard for the nation's security has morphed into grandstanding, even cheerleading support for convicted al Qaeda terrorists, while not offering any support for either the Times long-running political case against the president, nor the terrorist's attempt to slip prosecution by any means necessary.
Karl Rove simply isn't paying him enough.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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If as you suggest these terrorist convictions were made with evidence provided by information in part provided through FISA court orders then what would the gov't have to hide to a challenge asking them if such was the case?
Nope. It isn't national security at stake here. It's political security for the administration which is their concern.
Do you seriously think terrorists aren't aware that the NSA and every other law enforcement agency and intelligence service isn't using any means legal and otherwise against them? Of course they are. It's US citizens who are unaware of the rules of the game.
Posted by: ArthurStone at December 28, 2005 09:24 AM (pf+1s)
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If as you suggest these terrorist convictions were made with evidence provided by information in part provided through FISA court orders then what would the gov't have to hide to a challenge asking them if such was the case?
The rather obvious reason is that like any wartime government, this adminstration doesn't want enemy operatives to know that they are under watch
and vulnerable. We didn't let the Japanese nor the Germans know we had cracked their communications codes in World War II, ad yet folks like you seem more than willing to expose exactly this same sort of information.
Nope. It isn't national security at stake here. It's political security for the administration which is their concern.
There are none so blind as those that refuse to see. Anyone not completely blinded by partisan politics would see that exposing the existence of a successful anti-terror tool to the enemy, (in a national paper!) is among the worst of natioanl security leaks. The only thing that the
NY Times could have done worse would be to expose our weaknesses for terrorists to exploit.
As I explained elsewhere, the adminstration is on firm legal ground, and there is a strong likelihood, (IMO) that FISA, once challenged, will crumble to dust as being an unconstitutional infringement upon the inherent rights of the executive branch to conduct foreign intelligence.
As a matter of fact, I'm predicting just that.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 28, 2005 09:56 AM (g5Nba)
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The Lawyers are just the beginning, The CAIR organization is pressing to have the records released on where the Radiation Detection is taking place under the Freedom of Information Act. Why not just give all the information to the terrorists. I wonder how many more secrets the traitors in the news organizations are going to give up. In my books, they are worse then the terrorists, at least I know the terrorists hate America and are blunt about it. These guys say they do it for America, yea, right.
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 28, 2005 11:08 AM (BuYeH)
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Aldrich Ames....Soviet spy....discovered after the fall of the USSR...no warrant searches and wiretaps....Clinton DOJ. Thats all anybody needs to know about this nonsense.
Posted by: Ray Robison at December 28, 2005 11:59 AM (CdK5b)
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Comparing widespread, independent cells of terrorists with nations such as Japan and Germany engaged in an actual state of war with the US is ridiculous. There is no unified chain of command in Al-Qaeda and related groups as there was in our foes in WWII. The cells are secret (many dormant I imagine)and certainly must operate under the assumption that anything and everything they do is likely to be under observation. The analogy you make is false.
And your suggestion that an article in the NY Times would expose our 'weaknesses' to terrorists is ludicrous. They already know that most chemical plants are easy targets. The NSA eavesdrops. Tanker trucks are easy to steal. Containers on ships are vulnerable. Etc. Etc.
Again, the only folks surprised by any of this are US citizens who have had 9/11 and the 'war on terror' turned into GOP electioneering.
Posted by: ArthurStone at December 28, 2005 01:00 PM (pf+1s)
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An individual terrorist cell with a dirty bomb is more of a threat to this country then Germany was during WWII. Our rights have not been denied to us. Sedition was always illegal and the terrorists here in the states, wether citizen or not, are doing just that. If there is a known terror cell operating and the courts make the government give up how/why/where and when they do the radiaton monitering they will be more effective in their quest to take away a true citizens inalienable right to LIFE.
Any and all of those widespread terror cells need to be watched by any means necessary. If you want to talk dirty to your girlfriend the Govt just won't care. There aren't enough people as it is to worry about the vast majority. There are barely enough to do the job as it is and you on the Left want to slap another handcuff on them. The President is doing his job and I just wish he could go for another term, he'd win by a landslide.
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 28, 2005 01:21 PM (BuYeH)
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The New York Times belongs next to the National Enquirer. Both publish stories with a "Damn the consequences! Full speed ahead!" attitude.
Posted by: Shoprat at December 28, 2005 01:23 PM (I6DQp)
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Retired Navy-
Actually looking back over the years at gov't surveillance of US citizens a great deal of effort has been expended on what folks say to their boyfriend/girlfriend. Infiltration and surveillance of such as Martin Luther King and John Lennon back during the cold war were very much concerned with such things. And I doubt much as changed since. Remember the cold war when the Russians were our enemy and the end of civilization moments away? Big, big thhreat and still the FBI, CIA et.al. had plenty of time for fun and games.
But your joke about a Bush landslide is really funny. Depends on when the Diebold machines go nationwide I expect.
Posted by: ArthurStone at December 28, 2005 01:29 PM (pf+1s)
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I wasn't talking about Clinton having his political foes monitered or Monica watched, as for the Cold War, ever hear of the Cuban Missile Crisis? We were close there and a few other times. I admit, it would be great to live in your Nirvana world with pretty clouds and chocolate streams but the truth of the matter is, there really are bad guys out there. OUR President is trying to make sure they don't come over here by any means at his disposal. He is doing his best and I, for one, am glad Gore didn't get elected, or Kerry for that matter. Next fear is if Billory gets in there again. They screwed up enough, we don't need any more of them.
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 28, 2005 01:53 PM (JSetw)
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A.S. what planet are you from? I served my country Faithfully and continue to serve today. If you believe we are not "At War" with radical Islam, I would like for you to go to Bahgdad or Western Pakistan wearing an I Love the U.S.A. T-shirt waving an American flag,I can guarantee you will find out WE ARE AT WAR. Germany and Japan had opperative's in this country during WWII and the Gov't surveiled them with wire tap's and listened to there radio transmissions, then they used that information to protect our citizens. As far as the NYT they have made it their sole purpose in life to deride this President at every turn. So, frankly I as well as most other sensable people, I could really care less what the NYT has to print. As previously posted, if you do not have anything to hide, you have nothing to worry about. I am at a loss to understand why the left is so opposed to the way this administration is handling the GWOT. When I joined the military(which obviously you didn't) I took an oath "To Support and Defend The Constitution of The United States Against ALL Enemies Foreign and Domestic". The President is the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces and he took the same oath, to protect all citizens of this country and that includes you and everyone else. Personally I sleep better at night knowing that My country is doing "Whatever it Takes" to ensure my friends and family are safe. If you don't agree with that renounce your citizenship and move, That's another right that you have...
Posted by: Faithful Patriot at December 28, 2005 02:21 PM (WGcw3)
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Okay. What makes you all think that because you rally around the President those that disagree hate America? I love america - because it's FREE. What's the most basic freedom? What is this country founded on? FREEdom from government. This whole attitude - that if you have nothing to hide it shouldn't bother you is total BS. You can trust them lots, that's great, I don't. Not Clinton, not Bush. I do enjoy one thing that I've seen going on - people saying it is okay because Clinton did it. What a bar to set.
As for the leakers, they're actually called whistleblowers. And I have no problem with government employees speaking up when they think our government is doing something unconsitutional. FYI - the NYT sits on stories all the time for the sake of protecting Americans. The first step you all need to take is to realize we ALL want to be safe, we ALL want to protect americans (unless you think AS is al Qaeda - in which case I'm glad he's posting online and not plotting against us). I personally agree that democracy in the middle east is the surest long term solution to them demonizing the West.
Posted by: OchsAlly at December 28, 2005 05:42 PM (Ob/Pa)
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Faithful Patriot-
If I don't like it renounce my citizenship and move? 'Whatever it takes'? I think not.
Says who? You?
I pay my taxes. I vote. Last time I checked the current administation hadn't completely revolked freedom of speech. Perhaps you should learn a little more what are values & rights really are.
Blind obedience is not one of them for many. My self included.
Posted by: ArthurStone at December 28, 2005 07:09 PM (3StSI)
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Artie, Artie, Artie ....
There is such a thing as freedom of speech, but that does not include reactionaries like you who yell
FIRE in a crouded theater when there is no fire at all. You continue to yell and scream that George Bush violated the law, when literally hundreds of genuine legal scholars have said that you are wrong.
You are not an expert on Constitutional Law, nor am I. Unlike you, however, I
DO respect the expertise of the experts - not someone who just blows smoke and makes ludicrous, unfounded accusations.
As for OchsAlly's assertion that the persons leaking the information were no more than whistleblowers, he obviously knows nothing whatsoever about the federal laws governing the protection of classified information and the penalties for unlawful disclosure. I
DO know the penalties and the definitions from 36 years as an employee of the NSA.
Bottom line: neither of you knows squat, pure and simple.
Posted by: Retired Spy at December 28, 2005 08:30 PM (AaKND)
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Anyone notice Hillary Clinton missing during all of this NSA business? Seems like she's come up with
a new 'Southern Strategy' to gain the ear of the southern voter.
Posted by: machs at December 28, 2005 11:13 PM (3Fz95)
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'Hundreds' of legal scholars have NOT come forth and indicated Mr. Bush is correct. Back in April 2004 the man himself said eavesdopping and electronic collection of intelligence would not take place without court order.
Now he's saying something different.
And spare me the lecture of shouting fire in a theatre. Disagreeing with gov't policy lawfully is anything but.
Cheers
Posted by: ArthurStone at December 28, 2005 11:46 PM (pf+1s)
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Once again, Artie, you do not have a leg to stand on when making vague references to what George Bush said on April 20, 2004.
In the quote you and your leftie friends have cited as 'evidence' of criminal activity and/or intentional deception, you fail to show where the president was referring to the process of gathering
foreign Intelligence. It was not mentioned at all, nor was the NSA. The president was referring to the Patriot Act and
FBI wiretaps.
Once again, for those who cannot read simple English, the NSA does not do wiretaps - the FBI does wiretaps.
No wonder the Donks are doing so poorly in the public opinion polls on this issue. In fact, more that 64% of Americans are in favor of the president's actions to conduct surveillance on foreign al Qaeda targets - even if some include communications with persons inside the U.S. That is pretty impressive when one considers the number of MSM boneheads that do not know the law, use quotes incorrectly or out of context, or quote the likes of CNN's Jack Cafferty as an unimpeachable expert in Constitutional Law - and who are so dumb that they confuse electronic signal surveillance with wiretaps.
Just in case the lefties need a reading comprehension refresher course, you can find the exact text of what Bush said in 2004 as follows:
THE TRUTH
Posted by: Retired Spy at December 29, 2005 01:39 AM (AaKND)
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A.S. I agree with you and others that we as Americans have the right as individuals to agree or disagree with what our government and its policies, that is what the framers intended. I as well as you vote,pay taxes. But, there comes a time that "WE THE PEOPLE" need to stand behind our government and it's policies and proceedures. I wore the uniform of our great country and I can tell you from experience that there is NOTHING more gutwrenching and detrimental to the troops than having the media and the talking heads lam.bast what is percieved as their Commander in Chief trying to help them WIN... Some will say that I am blindly following this President, Let me say this so everyone can understand.. Those young men and women over there need all of our unwavering support, they were sent over there to protect our freedom and way of life. If I were younger I would be over there with them. If anyone thinks that our way of life has not been effected since 9/11 they are not in touch with reality. After 9/11 I saw all the flags and our country united. What happened? Ah, alas we went back to sleep.....
Posted by: Faithful Patriot at December 29, 2005 07:06 AM (JSetw)
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Retired Spy:
The president said one thing in April 2004 regarding intelligence gathering and quite a different thing in 2005. That is the truth.
And Faithful Patriot the Iraq war is the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time. And that is the truth.
Happy New Year.
Posted by: ArthurStone at December 29, 2005 06:15 PM (pf+1s)
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I'm sorry, CY, but Artie appears to be as dense as a box of stones.
Posted by: Retired Spy at December 29, 2005 06:22 PM (AaKND)
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You obviously did not bother to actually read the reference I provided, Artie - probably because of your stubborn refusal to examine the facts. Nothing whatsoever was mentioned in that talk that referred even vaguely to
intelligence gathering. The FISA was not mentioned, nor was surveillance of foreign Intelligence or the NSA mentioned. The president was talking about chasing down terrorists
physically inside the United States where the FBI - not the NSA - does wiretaps with court-approved warrants.
You can't handle the truth, Artie. You don't even recognize it when it slaps you right in the face.
Do you have a clue about anything?
Posted by: Retired Spy at December 29, 2005 06:40 PM (AaKND)
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I hope both reporters, and the staff of the NY Times along with those members involved in linking this data are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. After that I hope they are subjected to annual audits by the IRS.
Posted by: TJ Jackson at December 30, 2005 11:40 PM (BXmxw)
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The paper and reporters may be protected because they didn't actually divulge the information, they just reported it. (before you say anything I believe they are boneheaded twits who were way out of line). However, the one that actually leaked the info, once caught, should face the highest charges he can be prosecuted under.
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 31, 2005 11:35 AM (k86Sy)
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Just curious:
What would Bushco. have to do before you would take exception to it? Schiavo, Torture, Gitmo, WMDs, Downing Street Memo, wiretaps, PNAC-- nothing fazes you faithful.
He is above suspicion as far as I can tell from your comments, but you would never be so gullible in other areas of your life. Why here? Why now, when America needs you so badly?
Seriously, what would it take for you to say "hey, wait a minute Mr. Bush!"
Posted by: child at January 02, 2006 08:06 PM (KQb8R)
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December 27, 2005
Thunder Over Iran
David Bernstein notes over at
The Volokh Conspiracy that there is distinct possibility that
Israel will strike Iran within the next few months in an effort to disrupt or destroy Iran's nuclear ambitions. As Bernstein himself notes, "this is hardly an original insight."
The Iranians certainly know this, which is why they've entered into a deal to buy 29 TOR-M1 mobile air defense missile systems (another source strongly suggests that the actual number is actually 32 TOR-M1 systems, or the equivalent of two regiments).
Despite the deployment of these new systems however, Israel will not only probably engage Iranian nuclear facilities if negotiations with the international community falter, they will likely succeed.
Despite the commentary of some "experts," to the contrary, the Israeli Air Force has significant deep strike capability. According to Global Security, the IAF currently has 25 advanced multi-role F-15I "Ra'am" (Thunder) strike fighters, a custom built Israeli variant of the American F-15E Strike Eagle that can carry the 5,000 pound GBU-28 "Bunker Buster" capable of penetrating 20 feet of concrete or more than 100 feet of earth. Congress was alerted to the possible sale of 100 GBU-28s and supporting equipment in in April of 2005, and did not object, making it reasonable to conclude that the IAF probably has both the strike aircraft and the weaponry to take out the most heavily-fortified of Iranian facilities.
IAF F-16I "Soufa" (Storm)
In addition to the deep strike/deep penetration capability of GBU-28-armed F-15Is, the IAF also has "nearly 50" of the highly advanced F16I "Soufa" (Storm) two-seat, long-range interdictors most recognizable for two conformal fuel tanks mounted on the upper fuselage as seen in the image above. These F-16Is are equipped with long-range AMRAAM and short range Python 5 imaging infrared-guided high agility dogfighting missiles in an air-to-air role, or a mix of HARM anti-radiation missiles, Maverick air-to ground missiles, and a large variety of unguided and guided bombs
If Israel opts for a aerial assault, these roughly 75 planes should be more than a match for any air defenses Iran can project. Iranian airpower has suffered significantly since the shah's regime in the 1970s, and land-based radar and SAM capabilities are probably insufficient to the task of defending against modern strike packages.
If Israel opts for an early March strike as some sources suggest, we will know both Israel's and Iran's capabilities in very short order.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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with any probable attack against iran,iranian people would not trust in america anymore as tkey had before,besides,iranian military power is so rich that nobody can imagine.as i have intrviewed with some senior militarymen in iran they are completely ready to defend from themselves and create a storm that not only israel but also america would receive intense blows.it is utterly wrong to form any attack against them.
Posted by: gary at December 28, 2005 02:59 AM (yefHX)
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Unfortunately this could be the spark in the powder room.
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 28, 2005 06:27 AM (JYeBJ)
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While everyone has their eye on Israel, it'd be a very good idea to keep an eye on the Turks, the Fraud's and the Emirate states.
Just to mention a few other that are a tab bit nervous of the Mullah's, their proclamations and ambitions.
Posted by: Eg at December 28, 2005 10:23 AM (BK/qy)
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Interesting. Eg, are you suggesting that other Arab states might have a hand in striking Iranian facilities? If you would, please expound upon this theory.
Posted by: Confederae Yankee at December 28, 2005 10:33 AM (g5Nba)
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Here's a theory.
The Middle East has been a hotbed for centuries. There are many different tribes/factions/variations of religions/social classes etc... all under a blazing sun. They (as in the different tribes) have been josteling for power since Noah was a seamen recruit. Even in the more stable countries there is friction between the haves and have nots. A little fuel to the fire (lets just say, oh, Iran since they aren't particularly liked over there by most others) starts playing with some big matches (nuclear matches even). Well, some other kids in the neighborhood may not like it because they are all in striking range and may decide to take the matches away, by force if necessary. This could be potentially disasterous (I really hope I'm wrong). I also hope we got the beginnings of democracy in there in time, and that summits and talks will work in this case.
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 28, 2005 12:19 PM (JYeBJ)
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The only good scenario (in which Iran quits its nuclear ambitions) is also the least likely. As much as it disturbs me, someone needs to destroy Iran's nuclear capacity before it is ready for use. There is no good ending here because the Iranian president is determined to send the world into a firestorm. It would be better if Islamic nations do it, but if Israel has to they have done it before and are not afraid to defend their interests.
Posted by: Shoprat at December 28, 2005 01:31 PM (I6DQp)
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I agree Shoprat, I just know it's a big powder keg over there and hope to never hear the BOOM!!
Time will tell I guess. Smarter men then me are trying to stop it.
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 28, 2005 01:55 PM (y67bA)
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Israel is in the fight for its existance, it percieves Iran as a threat. All throughout history Jew's, Hebrew's, Israelites (hope thats spelled correctly?)have fought for their very existance. That has a tendancy to create an atmophere of distrust. Iran and their newly elected Terrrorist.... oops I mean President. Has publicly made threats to the Nation of Israel. They take that very seriously. Israel has no qualms about bombing the hell out of Iran and trust me they have the weapons to do it. If you know your history Israel fight's to win not to break even. They will attack Iran's nuclear making capabilities and wait for a response. If Iran launches an airstrike or ground troops leave the borders of Iran, Israel will annihilate them. Israelies do not mess around. Over the years Israel has TOLERATED the Palistinian's because we have asked, cohersed, arm twisted them to. This we cannot control. They see this as a military threat. They vehemently reserve the right to defend themselves at all cost's. And they will!!!!
Posted by: Faithful Patriot at December 29, 2005 09:35 AM (BuYeH)
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israel will winn iran. iran will go down. its in the bible in izikiel 38. its amaizing. i say enemies of israel must die!
Posted by: vussi shaballala at January 15, 2006 08:14 PM (/2Z6c)
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Neo-Cops Grow Ever More Unhinged on NSA Story
The kerfluffle around Bush's executive order to the NSA just keeps getting more and more interestingÂ…
On Christmas Eve, Stewart Powell of the Seattle Post-Intelligencer released a column showing that the secret FISA court that is supposed to approve government surveillance efforts was apparently exceeding its authority, forcing the Administration to go around a judicial roadblock to protect the American people:
Government records show that the administration was encountering unprecedented second-guessing by the secret federal surveillance court when President Bush decided to bypass the panel and order surveillance of U.S.-based terror suspects without the court's approval.
A review of Justice Department reports to Congress shows that the 26-year-old Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court modified more wiretap requests from the Bush administration than from the four previous presidential administrations combined.
If the FISA court was being dangerously obstructionist in the Administration's view, then the President would appear to not just have a right, but a Constitutional responsibility to go around the court if he felt American lives were at risk. To act otherwise would be criminal negligence, would it not?
Today's neo-copperheads can't be trusted in matters of national defense, and seem more intent on proving that fact for the foreseeable future. Marshall Grossman vividly proves that point in this article today at The Huffington Post.
Grossman—University of Maryland English Professor Marshall Grossman—apparently doesn't possess the reading comprehension needed to discern the meaning of the following sentence and apply it properly to today's world:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
The above is of course the Fourth Amendment, which Grossman goes out of his way to misunderstand.
He breathlessly intones:
That's it: the fourth amendment to the United States Constitution, complete and entire: One, single, gloriously clear, and grammatically explicit sentence. If some enterprising entrepreneur will put it on a tee-shirt, I'll wear it proudly.
In my naiveté I thought a few of us wearing those tee-shirts would be enough to put an end to the inane discussion of whether or not the President has the right to order the NSA to sustain a vast, warrantless, data-mining operation aimed at the international telephone and e-mail communication of Americans. On my stupid reading, the fourth amendment says no twice: no search or seizure without a sworn warrant and no warrant without specifying the places, persons or things sought.
But wait. On the Op Ed page of this morning's New York Times, a couple of strict constructionists from the Reagan and H. W. Bush Justice Departments are out to set me straight. These guys are lawyers. I'm just a guy who makes his living reading and understanding the English language.
But you are not understanding the language Professor Grossman. Either you canot understand it, or you are trying to cleverly lie with it. I'll leave the reader to decide which.
The Fourth Amendment purposefully does not outlaw all searches and seizures as Grossman would intentionally mislead readers, it only outlaws those that would be regarded as unreasonable, nor does it outlaw warrantless searches as legal precedents have shown time and time again. His entire position is predicated upon misrepresentation and ignoring the professional opinions of Justice Department lawyers from the Reagan, George H.W. Bush, and Clinton Presidential administrations, applicable case law, legal briefs, and judicial precedent, all of which which inconveniently seems to refute his purposefully obtuse position.
Ever out of his depth from a legal perspective, the good professor cannot even hold his own in an honest reading of the language. Professor Grossman should stick to 17th century English literature.
21st Century national policy matters are clearly beyond his understanding.
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Go around the courts? You are insane. What he did was impeachable and when the dems take back the house and senate in 06, watch as the impeachment proceedings begin. What a happy day for America when that useless turd is thrown from office, along with his cancerous oooze of a VP.
Posted by: Fom at December 27, 2005 06:03 PM (ywZa8)
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So Fom, what
exactly is your evidence that this warrants impeachment? Where are your legal precendents? Where are your legal experts? What cases do you cite?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 27, 2005 06:35 PM (0fZB6)
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Remember Zacarias Moussaoui? The 20th hijacker who the FBI arrested before 9/11 because the flight school he was attending became suspicious when he only wanted to learn how to steer a commercial airliner but not how to take off or land. The FISA court would not allow the FBI to search his computer. They refused to issue a warrant. If they had 9/11 may never have happened.
Posted by: tracelan at December 27, 2005 07:05 PM (ZlXVq)
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The linked report states:
But since 2001, the judges have modified 179 of the 5,645 requests for court-ordered surveillance by the Bush administration. A total of 173 of those court-ordered "substantive modifications" took place in 2003 and 2004 -- the most recent years for which public records are available.
The program at issue started in 2002, so it's obvious that the 179 modifications could not have been a factor here. The Administration could have only been aware of 6 cases at most. Just as obvious is the motive for attempting to spin this as though the 179 cases were a factor.
Posted by: Karl at December 27, 2005 08:18 PM (BZDPd)
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The right of the people to be secure in their
persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
I have always believed the courts belief that the fourth amendment applies to phones and other electronic communications was wrong, this is doubly true of cell and email which are broadcast out into the public domain. The constitution does not in any way shape or form cover privacy matters. Congress can not make a law that limits or usurps the inherent powers given by the constitution, how is this relavent to the fourth amendment? Well what the President is doing is exorcising his authority as Commander and Chief which is a military authority not a law enforcement one, none of the information gleaned by the NSA can or will be used in a court of law to do that you would need a search warrant according to the courts right now also all the INFO is being intercepted overseas this is not domestic spying. There was no law broken and as for impeachment you libs can sh*t in one hand and wish in the other and see what you get!
Posted by: Joe at December 27, 2005 08:25 PM (sNRFh)
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Bush did not go thru the FISA court because he did not need to. The President has the authority to gather intelligence with out a court order. If you are a U.S. citizen and you are communicating with AQ then you will be monitored as an agent of a foreign power.
Posted by: Joe at December 27, 2005 08:40 PM (sNRFh)
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You know, the Washington Post article at the root of all this cites what the NSA needed to provide in their request to do a wiretap: name a target (or describe it) and give a reason why its necessary.
Is that so hard? Especially since they can do it 3 days after the fact? I think I smell the quiet bigotry of low expectations at work here.
Posted by: Ben at December 28, 2005 12:33 AM (cQlBT)
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If they have 3 days after the fact, what is the point? The deed has been done. Approval or denial would have no effect. Seems like a really stupid system.
Personally I'm glad the NSA has been monitoring overseas communications with terrorists which originate from the United States. I guess if you are a terrorist or a terrorist sympathizer you would have a problem with that.
Posted by: tracelan at December 28, 2005 02:36 AM (ZlXVq)
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Old Soldier:
Many of us aren't as eager to hand our rights over to government as you seem to be.
The president has ample tools to deal with threats to the nation. Execution seems to be the problem. We keep hearing the excuse that the situation is so fluid and fast-moving that waiting for court approval can be burdensome when gov't may have only minutes or hours to act. Of course the fact they have 72 hours to do their work BEFORE seeking court approval is always somehow forgotten.
Posted by: ArthurStone at December 28, 2005 09:45 AM (pf+1s)
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Arthus, were you "handing over your rights" when FDR had these powers? Becuase he did. So did Truman, and JFK, and every other president from the dawn of international communications until Jimmy Carter was in office, and even since then, every president has held that he still has that same inherent authority, though President's have not had the occasion to assert that inherent right that until now.
You haven't lost any rights. They are the same as they always were.
The only thing you've give up, is knowledge.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 28, 2005 10:02 AM (g5Nba)
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"I guess if you are a terrorist or a terrorist sympathizer you would have a problem with that"
--tracelan
"...where was your righteous indignation when Clinton WAS spying on Americans purely for political reasons?...Please name one credible case or incident where a citizen's rights have been trampled by the NSA procedures"
-- confed yankee
Heres what Jack Cafferty says, "...unauthorized wiretaps are an impeachable offense, as Nixon proved. Mr. Bush's contemptible administration believes that a frightened populace is more easily malleable, so they forever wave the bloody shirt of 9/11 to justify doing, well, just about anything they want. And if you disagree, then you're helping the terrorists win."
http://transcripts.thatcablenewsorganizationthatamericanyankeerefusestoprintthenameof.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0512/20/sitroom.01.html
Some of the posters here believe that Clinton spied on Americans for political reasons but 1) don't care that the president administration is doing the same, 2) claim they won't believe it til the NSA and other security agencies open their super-duper-double-TS/SBI case files to you (how likely is that to happen and anybody been reading about how the Pentagon was spying on the Quakers down in Florida last year for "force protection" purposes?) and 3) can't comprehend that no other adminstration has ever had any trouble getting the courts to approve FISA wiretap requests because it's a lock-jawed-hillbilly cinch to do so.
This is the constitution we're talking about folks. It's what we're fighting for. It protects you.
Posted by: Ben at December 28, 2005 01:09 PM (cQlBT)
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I guess the left thinks it's unreasonable because Bush is in the WH.
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 28, 2005 02:00 PM (Mv/2X)
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Uh, Ben...
Jack Caffery is a
news anchor. Why don't you cite Maureen Dowd, or for that matter, some homeless person? Each have the same amount of constitutional expertise. If that is the best you've got, and this goes to the Supreme Court, FISA itself will be abolished as an unconstitutional infringment on executive branch powers by Congress before lunch.
Posted by: Confederaet Yankee at December 28, 2005 02:20 PM (g5Nba)
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"Uh, Ben... Jack Caffery is a news anchor."
-- confed yankee
I love it when someone changes the subject by saying they don't trust the source because he's a news anchor. Especially censorship-cheerleaders who have banned the name of a certain cable news network on their site.
For the politically correct who only take their information after sniffing the source's heinie to make sure its exactly the same breed of dog they are, let's quote Bob Barr, "First, in the best tradition of former President Bill Clinton's classic, "it-all-depends-on-what-the-meaning-of-is-is" defense, President Bush responded to a question at a White House news conference about what now appears to be a clear violation of federal electronic monitoring laws by trying to argue that he had not ordered the National Security Agency to "monitor" phone and e-mail communications of American citizens without court order; he had merely ordered them to "detect" improper communications."
http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/1205/28edbarr.html
There's more. Read it. I served 9 years as an 11B to protect the Constitution, which keeps the government from wiretapping Americans without an easily-obtained-up-to-3-days-after-the-fact court order.
Or tell me why Bob Barr is too liberal for your tastes. I need a good laugh.
Posted by: Ben at December 28, 2005 03:11 PM (cQlBT)
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It appears that the loonie lefties still do not know the difference between wiretaps and surveillance of communications that are transmitted via electromagnetic emissions - out in space, boneheads, not inside the territory of the United States.
Jack Cafferty as an expert on
Constitutional Law? Not lately. He is nothing more than a low-end - sometimes humorous - commentator.
The real expert, of course, is
Michael Gross. He made a complete ass of himself on Hannity % Colmes last night. I thought he was about to blow a gasket or have a stroke. And his knowledge of Constitutional Law and surveillance and wiretapping is sorely deficient too.
Where do they dig up these so-called experts? Michael Gross is an expert because he is a lawyer?
Posted by: Retired Spy at December 28, 2005 03:25 PM (AaKND)
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Ben, RS makes my point for me: this is a question where expertise matters, and in this particular subject area, Jack Cafferty's thoughts on the subject bear no weight. He is not now, nor has he ever been a legal expert.
Bob Barr, while he is at least an attorney, is not a constitutional law expert. He is, however, what I would regard as Cynthia McKinney, weapons grade
nuts if his
Wikipedia bio is accurate.
You don't understand the difference between a relevant and an irrelevant source. You're picking real winners, Ben. No wonder you don't grasp the law.
All the same, thank you for your service.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 28, 2005 04:31 PM (g5Nba)
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"loonie lefties still do not know the difference between wiretaps and surveillance of communications that are transmitted via electromagnetic emissions"
-- retired spy
Thanks for keeping the discussion civil. The point we're debating is that the courts presently have indicated that they think the govt needs an easily-obtained-up-to-3-days-after-the-fact court order for such wiretaps/surveillance on American citizens and the administration wasn't even trying to get them.
Here's what Federalist Society board member and constitutional scholar Robert Levy says, "The text of FISA §1809 is unambiguous: “A person is guilty of an offense if he intentionally engages in electronic surveillance … except as authorized by statute.” ... I know of no court case that has denied there is a reasonable expectation of privacy by U.S. citizens and permanent resident aliens in the types of wire communications that are reportedly monitored by the NSA’s electronic surveillance program."
http://www.fed-soc.org/pdf/domesticsurveillance.pdf
John Ashcroft in 6/8/2004 testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee stated about the bottleneck in obtaining those court orders: "And we are making progress. The problem is remediating. We have fewer pipeline FISAs now than before but we're not home yet. And so we will continue to work in that respect. I have asked, in each of the past three weeks, the chairman of this task force for reports and the reports are encouraging."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25211-2004Jun8.html
If getting the wiretap permissions was such a problem, why wasn't Ashcroft telling the Senate? C'mon guys, time to cut your losses, the president already is doing so, as Bob Barr has pointed out.
Posted by: Ben at December 28, 2005 04:48 PM (cQlBT)
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Ben, you've missed the point entirely. The point is the president doesn't need to get a FISA court warrant, because he is exercizing his constitutional authority. FISA is a legislative act that in essence restricts the president's authority and that is not allowed by our constitution. One branch cannot restrict or deminish the authority of another branch.
If NSA discovers a plot to detonate a nuclear bomb in your home town within 12 hours, but fails to get a FISA issued warrant, do you want them to act upon the intelligence data or not? How worried are you that your (specifically you) rights will be infringed upon?
You really need to put this into perspective.
Posted by: Old Soldier at December 28, 2005 04:53 PM (9ABza)
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And let me kick out Con Yank's thanks to the many commenters here (some of who I may disagree with about much) who have done hard work in dangerous places for our country. My 9 years were in the NG, so I only deserve a part-time thanks. All the same, I'm ROFL that you do indeed find Bob Barr too liberal for your taste.
I'm a big fan of Wikipedia. Glad you are, too.
Now, drumroll please, while we wait to discover if John Ashcroft, Robert Levy and the Federalist Society are closet liberal whack-jobs.
Posted by: Ben at December 28, 2005 04:59 PM (cQlBT)
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"If NSA discovers a plot to detonate a nuclear bomb in your home town within 12 hours, but fails to get a FISA issued warrant, do you want them to act upon the intelligence data or not? How worried are you that your (specifically you) rights will be infringed upon?" -- old soldier
Oh mannnn... the ticking bomb argument! This is great! So we should disregard our Constitution liberties because 1000s will die otherwise? What if only 10 people will die? Or no one? Go check out http://www.slate.com/id/2132195/ to see why this is such a treat to debate.
Of course, the qustion is moot as the NSA is allowed to apply for permission for wiretaps 3 days after the fact.
And as already mentioned, Federalist Society constitutional scholar does feel that the constitution requires the president to obey FISA. So does Bruce Fein, constitutional scholar and former deputy attorney general in the Reagan Administration: "I think the answer requires at least in part considering what the occupant of the presidency says in the aftermath of wrongdoing or rectification. On its face, if President Bush is totally unapologetic and says I continue to maintain that as a war-time President I can do anything I want – I don’t need to consult any other branches – that is an impeachable offense. It’s more dangerous than Clinton’s lying under oath because it jeopardizes our democratic dispensation and civil liberties for the ages. It would set a precedent that … would lie around like a loaded gun, able to be used indefinitely for any future occupant."
http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/bfein.htm
C'mon people, do some homework.
Posted by: Ben at December 28, 2005 05:15 PM (cQlBT)
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Here's more from constitutional scholar and former dep. att. general Fein, above cited: "President Bush's claim of inherent authority to flout congressional limitations in warring against international terrorism thus stumbles on the original meaning of the commander in chief provision in Article II, section 2.
The claim is not established by the fact that many of Mr. Bush's predecessors have made comparable assertions. In Youngstown Sheet & Tube v. Sawyer (1952), the U.S. Supreme Court rejected President Truman's claim of inherent power to seize a steel mill to settle a labor dispute during the Korean War in reliance on previous seizures of private businesses by other presidents. Writing for a 6-3 majority, Justice Hugo Black amplified: "But even if this be true, Congress has not thereby lost its exclusive constitutional authority to make laws necessary and proper to carry out the powers vested in the Constitution in the Government of the United States."
Guys, I won't think any less of you if you abandon the administration's talking points and retreat in good order from the field of battle. I'll be looking for you in my 6 o'clock.
Posted by: Ben at December 28, 2005 05:36 PM (cQlBT)
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"If the FISA court was being dangerously obstructionist in the AdministrationÂ’s view, then the President would appear to not just have a right, but a Constitutional responsibility to go around the court if he felt American lives were at risk. To act otherwise would be criminal negligence, would it not?"
I love this part. Because FISA has some objections, that the president thinks (who cares what others think I guess)are endangering national security, he decides he can bypass him. I wonder if anyone would stand up and object if he thought the congress was obstructing him, and he decided he had the power to bypass them in the name of national security.
I don't know about you, but anyone that thinks they are that right, and everyone else is so wrong, is either what you call a loose cannon, or the savior of the human races (I doubt Bush qualifies for this honor just yet)
Posted by: Tobin at December 28, 2005 06:29 PM (xJmRM)
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How very shallow, Tobin.
Bush did not make a unilateral decision as you mislead, but instead worked with dozens of lawyers in the Department of Justice, two Attorney's General, White House Counsel, and NSA lawyers to craft a legal executive order. FISA itself and the courts were aware of it, and FISA in
re Sealed Case, 310 F.3d 7 17, 742 (FISA. Ct. of Review 2002) FISA itself takes for granted the President's right to conduct warrantless foreign intelligence surveillence.
Try selling your half-truths somewhere far left of here, where they might be bought.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 28, 2005 06:40 PM (0fZB6)
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Ben is full of himself too - and appears to be more impressed with some so-called Constitutional Law legal beagles - and his own hubris - than in actual Court decisions.
Get over it. Neither the Congress nor the Court can take away the president's inherent rights under the Constitution. Courts have ruled on this, and the Supreme Court will rule the same way.
Ben has a long, long way to go before making any claims for victory on any scores discussed herein.
Posted by: Retired Spy at December 28, 2005 08:42 PM (AaKND)
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December 26, 2005
Victims of the Wave
Today marking the one year anniversary of what much of the world knows as the
Asian or Boxing Day Tsunami, which took over 200,000 lives in South Asia. Glenn Reynolds has a
roundup of roundups on his site.
Please say a prayer for those that never returned home, and for those that were left behind to face a shattered world without them.
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I lived in Japan for many years and vacationed in Thailand and Borneo and Sumatra. A terrible tragedy. All the islander smiles I remember - I wonder which were affected.
It fits no political agenda to recognize that nature has us in its grip and may squeeze whenever it chooses, but that is how it is.
Posted by: Jeremy Abrams at December 27, 2005 09:36 AM (EViAc)
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What good would a prayer accomplish? God's already had his way.
I'd rather do something that actually makes a difference.
Posted by: child at January 02, 2006 08:30 PM (KQb8R)
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December 24, 2005
The Reason for the Season
4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David
5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
6 And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
Happy birthday, Jesus, and a Merry Christmas to all.
I'll see you all again on the 26th.
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Number 14 Peace to men of GOOD WILL. Huge difference. Merry Christmas.
Posted by: jeffersonranch at December 24, 2005 03:22 PM (9IXr0)
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Wishing you and your family a blessed Christmas.
Posted by: seawitch at December 24, 2005 07:42 PM (p7/dZ)
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Merry Christmas to you and yours!
Warm Regards,
Pebble
Posted by: PebblePie at December 24, 2005 10:33 PM (9F9zf)
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Merry Christmas and Happy Chanukah to all visiting this BLOG ....
Posted by: Retired Spy at December 24, 2005 11:02 PM (AaKND)
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My 4 year old daugther explained Christmas to me today. In CVS drug store buying hose, she informed me that we needed to buy a birthday card for Jesus. It is his birthday and he needed a card and a cake. I of course made a red velvet cake and bought a card that we have put under the tree. That is what it is all about!
Merry Christmas!
Posted by: scgeecheegirl at December 25, 2005 02:37 AM (JyQt4)
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A very Merry Christmas to my Christian friends, a Happy Hanukkah to my Jewish friends, and a groovy winter solstice to everyone else!
I don't comment here often, but I enjoy reading this blog immensely. I'd like to thank each and every one of you for your insight and your humor. May the New Year be kind to you and your families.
Posted by: lady redhawk at December 25, 2005 09:12 AM (n8ZLN)
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Merry Christmas to you and your's Bob. God Bless.
Posted by: Lone Pony at December 25, 2005 02:25 PM (kAkeO)
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We all know that Jesus was actually born in September, right?
http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/birthday.htm
December 25th is Saturnalia -- a blowout, weeklong Roman festival of orgies and feasting to celebration the birth of the sun god! Io Saturnalia, everybody! Keep the Saturn in Saturnalia!
You all are welcome to celebrate Jesus' birthday as well, any excuse for a party in midwinter is a good excuse -- just don't forget the real reason for the season.
Posted by: Ben at December 27, 2005 12:57 AM (cQlBT)
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my goodness. I posted a comment earlier, but it seems to have disappeared. Have you checked to make sure your equipment is working properly?
Posted by: MzNicky at December 27, 2005 02:29 AM (+xPdi)
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Since it seems to have gone missing, let me repeat:
Why have all you godly Christians stayed up all Christmas Eve and into Christmas day googling butt plugs?
And if liberals are indeed in a "persistent vegitative state," why are you so worried about them?
Posted by: MzNicky at December 27, 2005 02:31 AM (+xPdi)
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my goodness. I posted a comment earlier, but it seems to have disappeared. Have you checked to make sure your equipment is working properly?
Perhaps your *ahem* equipment isn't working. That would explain the total insipidness of your comment.
Why have all you godly Christians stayed up all Christmas Eve and into Christmas day googling butt plugs?
We're doing our best to find you a present that you actually need. Maybe this time you won't use it as a pacifier.
And if liberals are indeed in a "persistent vegitative state," why are you so worried about them?
Because we're "compassionate" conservatives....
Posted by: Elephant Man at December 27, 2005 09:04 PM (iAa89)
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Google Mocks Christ on Christmas Eve
While trying to find a nativity image for my last post before Christmas, I did an search for "baby jesus" on Google.
This is the result.
Notice that the top search result is for a sex toy that mocks Jesus.
Other results on this search results page have more link traffic. A quick review of page's code shows no HTML meta information that should give it a favorable ranking. The page itself has a raw relevance ranking (search word divided by total words) of less than five percent. The only conclusion I can draw is that this page position ranking was done manually by a Google staffer.
Google's message to the Faithful seems obvious:
"Merry Christmas, assholes."
Update: Some folks have made the argument that this is the result of Googlebombing or other SEO tricks. Others say that it is merely the result of Google's search programs. They would absolve Google of all responsibility.
I do not.
Google's algorithms are man-made, coded by human programmers, as are any exclusionary protocols. These people ultimately decide if search results are relevant. I think it is fair to say that a butt plug is not a relevant search result for 99-percent of Google users searching for information on Jesus Christ as a baby.
So either Google has manipulative coders, or a fouled algorithm in their baseline technologies that suggests their massive capitalization is based upon a a house of cards. I'll leave individual readers and investors to make the call.
Update 2: Crooks and Liars calls this post 2005's Worst Post of the Year. Coming from such a den of delusion and paranoia (not to mention abject political failure), I consider it a compliment.
Also, I guess he didn't see this, though technically it isn't a blog post, just the worst idea of the year.
Good Friday Update: As I said previously:
Google's algorithms are man-made, coded by human programmers, as are any exclusionary protocols. These people ultimately decide if search results are relevant.
A current Google search reveals that Google has changed their search algorithm to exclude the sex toy site from at least their top 50 results in a unfiltered search. I was right, liberals were wrong.
Not that this comes as a shock to anyone...
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Incredible. And, yes, it seems quite intentional.
It if they say it was a "mistake," be certain that error would never happen for Muhammed.
Posted by: California Conservative at December 24, 2005 12:36 PM (f2ERQ)
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Google must die
google jew.............that'll knock your socks off
Yeah yeah, I know they have no agenda but they run adsfor hamas and hizbollah but refuse LGF
status as a news source
Pamela
Posted by: Pamela at December 24, 2005 01:28 PM (ywZa8)
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Assuming you didn't Photoshop that as some kind of a joke, it's not showing the same results now.
Posted by: Eric at December 24, 2005 02:50 PM (4G1j9)
Posted by: Juliette at December 24, 2005 03:59 PM (lCft3)
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I got the same result.
Damn Google!
Google Delenda est!
Posted by: robert at December 24, 2005 05:14 PM (t5bCS)
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Eric;
I just did it and the baby Jesus butt plug is at the top of the list.
Posted by: andrei at December 24, 2005 05:32 PM (CNODK)
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I don't know what Eric typed, I got the same results.
Posted by: Rodney at December 24, 2005 05:33 PM (WBj5+)
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Good grief. Merry Christmas, Google, indeed. Bad enough that the Christmas Eve logo is a cat and mouse playing with a plug ("doin' the electrocution shuffle..."). That's just breathtaking.
Posted by: The Random Yak at December 24, 2005 07:37 PM (Srfku)
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While I agree that Google is more than biased, and I too searched "baby Jesus" and got the same results. But if you want images, it's safe to go here http://images.google.com/ and search for "baby Jesus".
Merry Christmas everybody.
Posted by: theputz at December 24, 2005 08:41 PM (a9uao)
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The enemies of the truth are getting crazier and bolder every day. Come Lord Jesus.
Posted by: Shoprat at December 24, 2005 09:33 PM (I6DQp)
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It's 10:00 PM Christmas Eve here in Oklahoma, and I get the same search result. Disgusting.
I wonder what Google will pull next Ramadan season? Oh, wait -- Islam is a religion of peace. Never mind.
Posted by: Mike at December 24, 2005 11:04 PM (lMCVl)
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Other results on this search results page have more link traffic.
I'd be curious to know how you actually know that; and, therefore, can objectively conclude that it's not a Googlebomb. I was referred here by Wizbang, and someone there suggested that it has indeed been linked to a lot lately, just to tick off people like us.
Posted by: mcg at December 25, 2005 12:15 AM (fAE8G)
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At the bottom of the search page is a link that says, "Dissatisfied? Help us improve"
Hopefully enough people will take the time to comment to Google as well as commenting here!
http://www.google.com/quality_form?q=baby+jesus&hl=en&lr=
Posted by: prying1 at December 25, 2005 12:17 AM (yegxa)
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Why are you looking for images on Google's web search page? If you did the same serch on Google's images search page, you will get what you are looking for.
Posted by: Lew Al at December 25, 2005 01:43 AM (7x78S)
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If you turn on "strict filtering" under the preferences tab, it will take away any of the porn-type links like this. Why are you searching with SafeSearch turned off? Do you often search for porn and need to have it off? Turn it on (strict filtering) and there is no problem.
The only reason you would need to have SafeSearch off is to look for porn.
Posted by: Joe at December 25, 2005 01:49 AM (7x78S)
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Try Googling "Failure" see what is the top result!
Posted by: Ty at December 25, 2005 02:10 AM (r8yNG)
Posted by: Jeremy Nimmo at December 25, 2005 04:38 AM (XoY5M)
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I'm disappointed that the top link wasn't a picture of Sean Hannity.
Posted by: Jethro at December 25, 2005 05:44 AM (zKOhs)
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I just got the same result with my search. Doesn't google put advertisers at the top of their searches?
Posted by: The Ugly American at December 25, 2005 11:25 AM (BT5RV)
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Well, Google is an algorithm thingy. Maybe the problem is not Google but the statistical center of mass of its users.
Posted by: George at December 25, 2005 11:34 AM (m6VV/)
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Come on people. Google is totally algorithm-based. The algorithm strongly favors links that point to a given site-- therefore as many sites point to the one in question, it raises the google ranking. When intentional and malicious, you can call this "googlebombing."
But to suggest that a google staffer had a role to play in this is just silly. Why on earth do you think a public company would blatantly risk its reputation in this way?
Posted by: jake at December 25, 2005 01:00 PM (/u/BU)
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Your conclusion is incorrect. Google bears no fault here, and the harsh sentiments expressed in this thread reveal more about the speakers than the subject.
Google provides an algorithm, a way of matching any search term against the world's webpages. They do not manually put an offensive link at the top of a results list.
But there's a whole industry of consultants trying to match those algorithms, to get good placements for the clients sites in each of the main search engines. The search engines respond and change their algorithm to disqualify the cheaters. The SEO consultants adjust their tactics in turn, and so on.
Don't blame Google, Yahoo or Microsoft for the offensive cheaters in the world -- the search engines only reveal that such people exist, they do not create them.
For more info, try doing a web search on "google bombing" or "seo myths". There are more productive ways to spend our time than introducing such divisive controversies as "Google Mocks Christ".
Posted by: a reader at December 25, 2005 01:19 PM (jO3T9)
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The comment by Joe at 1:49 am nailed the difference between my search and the rest of those commenting that they are getting the same results. The reason I didn't get those results is that I had set my preferences to "strict filtering" which is my preferred method of using Google. I tested it, and sure enough I see what others are seeing. Now, back to "strict filtering" for me! :-)
Also, as a side note, I think that the default is not "strict filter" so just because someone got those results doesn't mean they had turned it off, but rather had never found the need to turn it on, so Joe's comment is a bit harsh.
Anyway, Merry Christmas to all. And happy Google bombing next Christmas. ;-)
Eric.
Posted by: Eric at December 25, 2005 09:33 PM (4G1j9)
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Well, I e-mailed google....we'll see what they say.
Posted by: DixieDarlin' at December 25, 2005 09:40 PM (oMcKT)
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Right on, Google. I love those guys. Hey, if you type in "failure" and hit "i feel lucky" you will have a little chuckle. Also, type in "Santorum" and hit "I feel lucky." I love Google.
Posted by: FOM at December 25, 2005 09:43 PM (6krEN)
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Re: "yes, it seems quite intentional". Well, yes, an intentional effort by PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF GOOGLE to game the system. Unlike traditional full-text search, things like "keyword density" plays a modest role in getting the top hit on Google. As others have noted, do a little research on "googlebomb". I would guess this result is fairly recent, and will disappear. Google removes or penalizes sites that try to game the system not that are offensive. A search for "jew" is a good example. As a previous commenter noted, "failure" is another one -- the top 2 matches clearly can't be explained by "keyword density" or metatags or such.
And, no I don't for Google; I just don't like to see people fall for conspiracy theories that have no basis in reality. (I suppose it's possible that a rogue employee tweaked the result; I have no idea how easy that would be -- but I'll bet it's cause for being fired immediately, offensive or not.)
Posted by: Scott Lawton at December 25, 2005 09:56 PM (+Bhct)
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U neocon idiots really need to get a life! Btw, last I heard, there never was a Jesus. It's all made up to fool non-thinking idiots like u! Go get yourselves some lives. Better still some loofahs a la the Christmas Wars General, Bill O'reilly and Fox Lies News!!!!
Posted by: neoconsareidiots at December 26, 2005 09:42 AM (Hp2RG)
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Sadly, this post has become infested with liberals, and the peculiar, hate-filled,logic-free thought that the "liberal elite" bring to us country folks.
Some have BDS advanced enough that they've somehow blamed this on Bush and the neocons. Halliburton, it seems, would be next on their list of cliched talking points.
Since they can't converse like adults, I'm locking this thread.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 26, 2005 12:15 PM (0fZB6)
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A THIRD Surveillance Scandal
First there was the Bush Executive Order to have the NSA intercept messages outside the country to and from the terrorists that upset liberals. Then the NEST surveillance of predominately Muslims sites for dirty bombs which made them livid.
And then there is this, perhaps the most intrusive surveillance of all.
The ACLU will not be happy.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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This is appalling; do these people have no idea that certain “programs” can only be effective if conducted in absolute secrecy? Surveillance under this “program” has existed for a long time without any court issued warrants and has been accepted as being within the constitution for decades. To expose it now is just beyond the pale.
Merry
CHRISTmas to all; and to all a goodnight!
Posted by: Old Soldier at December 24, 2005 11:07 AM (9ABza)
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Nice link. Actually had me going for a bit as I wondered what he was talking about.
Merry Christmas to you.
Posted by: joated at December 24, 2005 01:08 PM (M7kiy)
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December 23, 2005
Which Side Are They On?
You've got to wonder just how fast today's mainstream media would have leaked the
breaking of Enigma to the Germans.
From U.S News & World Report:
In search of a terrorist nuclear bomb, the federal government since 9/11 has run a far-reaching, top secret program to monitor radiation levels at over a hundred Muslim sites in the Washington, D.C., area, including mosques, homes, businesses, and warehouses, plus similar sites in at least five other cities, U.S. News has learned. In numerous cases, the monitoring required investigators to go on to the property under surveillance, although no search warrants or court orders were ever obtained, according to those with knowledge of the program. Some participants were threatened with loss of their jobs when they questioned the legality of the operation, according to these accounts.
I would certainly hope that U.S. mosques, where terrorists have already attempted to purchase surface to air missiles, are under surveillance for radiological weapons. I should hope they are being monitored for suspicious chemicals and biological agents as well.
Perhaps not surprisingly, the main ingredient in the U.S. News story is the "surprising" fact that - get this - some suspicious Muslim sites were monitored without obtaining warrants. The rest of the story - including the "omitted details of how the monitoring is conducted" - has been public knowledge at least since June 9 of 2002 when much of this same ground was covered by the Boston Globe:
[NEST] teams have been driving around urban areas in vans known as ''Hot Spot Mobile Labs,'' armed with instruments that detect alpha, beta, gamma, and neutron radiation. Other teams are equipped with backpacks that hold smaller detectors...
...
Though the effort has relaxed somewhat since the October scare, one official said NEST units still go on random, weekly search missions in different cities, focusing on ports, warehouse districts, and other locations where a smuggled weapon might be housed.
NEST teams may have driven their vans onto mosque property to sniff the air for radioactive isotopes. Backpack-equipped NEST team members may have walked through a neighborhood or apartment complex.
The government holds that these sniff tests are legal. Not surprisingly, U.S. News was able to find a dissenting expert.
Georgetown University Professor David Cole, a constitutional law expert, disagrees. Surveillance of public spaces such as mosques or public businesses might well be allowable without a court order, he argues, but not private offices or homes: "They don't need a warrant to drive onto the property -- the issue isn't where they are, but whether they're using a tactic to intrude on privacy. It seems to me that they are, and that they would need a warrant or probable cause."
U.S. News might have also mentioned that Georgetown University Professor David Cole, "a constitutional law expert," is also the legal affairs correspondent for The Nation, a far left liberal magazine.
It gets worse.
Cole points to a 2001 Supreme Court decision, U.S. vs. Kyllo, which looked at police use -- without a search warrant -- of thermal imaging technology to search for marijuana-growing lamps in a home.
Because of course, sensors used for national security are the exact same thing as local cops making a pot bust. Brilliant comparison, Professor Cole.
Perhaps because of his politics, Cole does not bother to mention the blatantly obvious fact that these radiation-sensing technologies should not violate the "unreasonable search" clause of the Fourth Amendment because of the "special needs" exception.
Nor does Cole mention that going into publicly-accessible driveways and parking lots without a warrant is not necessarily unconstitutional.
You would think that Cole or U.S. News would have tried to seek a more balanced approach to this story.
Of course, if they did, there wouldn't be a story, would there?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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and remember: the NYOD uses this stuff everyday of the year somehwere in the big apple, and IN TIMES SQUARE ON NEW YEARS EVE EVEYBODY COMING TO MIDTOWN IS CHECKED.
and this had been going on FOR YEARS.
and the NYTIMES never complained ONCE or cliamed they were violating anyone's rights, or that these detectors constituted an illegal search.
that USNEWS now went with the story and that it was picked up so widely in the MSM PROVES that the BDS afflicted Lefties now control the MSM and the now control the DNC.
they are more afriad of BusHitlerburton and more angry with him than they are of/at al Qaeda.
Posted by: reliapundit at December 24, 2005 12:59 AM (G3ctB)
Posted by: reliapundit at December 24, 2005 01:00 AM (G3ctB)
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Reliapundit, I believe you've pegged the situation. The radical left now controls the DNC, a majority of the Democrats in congress and the majority of the MSM. They are going to shove their version of America down everybody's throat by force if necessary.
Our forefathers had the brilliant foresight to establish a government with three branches; each with specific powers. Without the constitution, the liberadicals would probably be marching on Washington today. Our brilliant forefathers provided one more safety from such an occurance; the right to keep and bear arms. Fortunately, the liberadicals are on the side of disarmament, so guess when the firepower lays? Right where it needs to be to prevent an insurection. Don't you just love the constitution?
As for the US News, all I can say is this non-story is a "holiday" present to the liberadicals. It would be far better if the truly understood
CHRISTmas.
Posted by: Old Soldier at December 24, 2005 08:27 AM (9ABza)
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I absoulutely agree with your article which I would like to say in my own words. They break no laws driving around with electronic sniffers. It also makes me wonder what the "liberradicals" (I like that one)are hiding that they don't want found.
My opinion of them is they got nuthin I want.
Posted by: Ron at December 24, 2005 11:07 AM (6krEN)
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You libtards are all the same- crybabies looking for the big government to come and watch you all the time like mommy. Like you need a nanny cam so no one will hurt you. Little babies and cowards. Of course, you're liberals. Are you so scared and shitting in your pants over the big bad terrorists that you have to give up your freedoms like a bunch of commies? You need a big, strong daddy to take care of little baby? You don't deserve to live under this proud flag.
Posted by: Proud, Strong American at December 27, 2005 03:18 AM (oDYNj)
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You libtards are all the same- crybabies looking for the big government to come and watch you all the time like mommy. Like you need a nanny cam so no one will hurt you. Little babies and cowards. Of course, you're liberals. Are you so scared and shitting in your pants over the big bad terrorists that you have to give up your freedoms like a bunch of commies? You need a big, strong daddy to take care of little baby? You don't deserve to live under this proud flag.
Posted by: Proud, Strong American at December 27, 2005 03:18 AM (oDYNj)
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ConLaw Scholar: Bush has the Authority For NSA Wiretaps
This segment of a radio talk show transcript is interesting, especially coming from self-described liberal Constitutional law Professor Cass Sunstein on the Hugh Hewitt Radio Show:
Hugh Hewitt (HH): ...First, did the authorization for the use of military force from 2001 authorize the president's action with regards to conducting surveillance on foreign powers, including al Qaeda, in contact with their agents in America, Professor?
Cass Sunstein (CS): Well, probably. If the Congress authorizes the president to use force, a pretty natural incident of that is to engage in surveillance. So if there's on the battlefield some communication between Taliban and al Qaeda, the president can monitor that. If al Qaeda calls the United States, the president can probably monitor that, too, as part of waging against al Qaeda.
Hugh Hewitt (HH): Very good. Part two of your analysis...If...whether or not the AUMF does, does the Constitution give the president inherent authority to do what he did?
Cass Sunstein (CS): That's less clear, but there's a very strong argument the president does have that authority. All the lower courts that have investigated the issue have so said. So as part of the president's power as executive, there's a strong argument that he can monitor conversations from overseas, especially if they're al Qaeda communications in the aftermath of 9/11. So what I guess I do is put the two arguments together. It's a little technical, but I think pretty important, which is that since the president has a plausible claim that he has inherent authority to do this, that is to monitor communications from threats outside our borders, we should be pretty willing to interpret a Congressional authorization to use force in a way that conforms to the president's possible Constitutional authority. So that is if you put the Constitutional authority together with the statutory authorization, the president's on pretty good ground.
Radioblogger has the entire transcript.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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None of this will matter a bit to those who are screaming for the president's blood. Their minds are made up, don't confuse them with the facts.
Posted by: Shoprat at December 23, 2005 02:37 PM (I6DQp)
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People will believe what they want; however, I believe most will see through the brouhaha of this issue and see the obstructionists and defeatists for what they really are. If the cameras havenÂ’t been rolling during these recent antics for future political commercials, then someone is falling down on their job.
Posted by: Old Soldier at December 23, 2005 05:05 PM (9ABza)
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You clowns are ridiculous. If Clinton had done this, you'd be screaming for his impeachment (rightfully, this time).
No true liberal supports the illegal usurping of FISA. No true conservative would either. FISA should be permissive enough for everyone. Otherwise, that's why FISC, the NSA, Congress, etc. etc., you can name enough, refuse to support this.
Posted by: NaySayer at December 27, 2005 03:55 PM (jgYch)
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I hate to break up your delusion, Naysayer, but DoJ lawyers from the last 4 adminstrations, The NSA itself, and most constitutional law experts happen to disagree with you, and I'll let you guess who carries the most weight.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 27, 2005 04:36 PM (g5Nba)
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I don't think it's a delusion to suggest spying on Americans without a warrant (ex post or ante) is unconstitutional. I also seriously challenge your assertion that most constitutional law experts disagree with NaySayer. If anything, I'd like more than just your word that they disagree. Plus, just because some DoJ lawyers disagree - I doubt all would - remember that they were ALL working for the EXECUTIVE branch. Finally, it is a little scary that the President can decide who to listen to - most especially considering according to him EVERYTHING is linked to al Qaeda (remember, if you speak up for troops without armor - you're aiding and abetting, if you think more troops are needed - you're aiding and abetting, if you think maybe we should have caught Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan before refocusing on Iraq - you're aiding and abetting). Heck, seems that the President might think every Democrat on the Hill (at least) would be linked to al Qaeda.
Posted by: True Believer at December 28, 2005 05:20 PM (Ob/Pa)
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Sunstein is not correct here, he states where Bush's authority begins, but he does not state where it ends. Bush DOES have the authority to wiretap. Under normal circumstances he has 72 hours to file paperwork with a FISA judge. Under extreme circumstances (such as 9/11) they have 15 days to file the paperwork. If a FISA judge rejects a warrant it is NOT ok for Bush to ignore the judge. According to Federal law that is where his authority ends.
Our government is based on checks and balances. When the executive branch ignores the judicial branch, they are also ignoring the laws created by the legislative branch. Turning our 3 branch government into a 1 branch government.
"I have re-authorized this program more than 30 times," Bush said.
Without checks and balances, Bush is becoming a King. This is not good.
Posted by: Steve at January 01, 2006 04:34 PM (b8wHl)
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December 22, 2005
FISA Court Could Disband After Briefing
The FISA Court in the center of the Bush/NSA surveillance kerfluffle just got interesting, as the presiding judge is apparently setting up a briefing for her fellow judges next month, according to the
Washington Post.
The presiding judge of a secret court that oversees government surveillance in espionage and terrorism cases is arranging a classified briefing for her fellow judges to address their concerns about the legality of President Bush's domestic spying program, according to several intelligence and government sources.
Is it just my reading of this passage, or does this article seem to suggest that presiding judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly—attempting to assuage their concerns, as the passage states—has knowledge of the Bush executive order and it's legal justifications, and buys into it enough to sponsor a briefing for other FISA judges?
It is also interesting to note that “protest resignation” of Judge James Robertson occurred before the briefing, lending some degree of credibility to the theory that his divorce from the FISA court was political in nature.
Among the more interesting bits of information in this WaPo article is how the FISA judges could chose to react after the briefing, which is expected to be made by NSA and Justice Department attorneys.
The judges could, depending on their level of satisfaction with the answers, demand that the Justice Department produce proof that previous wiretaps were not tainted, according to government officials knowledgeable about the FISA court. Warrants obtained through secret surveillance could be thrown into question. One judge, speaking on the condition of anonymity, also said members could suggest disbanding the court in light of the president's suggestion that he has the power to bypass the court.
Bold in the above is mine.
I would think that the step of disbanding the court would prove to be an emphatic acknowledgement of the shortcomings of the FISA law itself, and would be seen as an affirmation of the Article II powers inherent to the Office of the President.
If this is the final decision of the court—and at this point, it is simply impossible to tell—it will have to be seen as a huge blow to the credibility of the “impeach him now, ask questions later” faction of the Democratic Party running in the 2006 elections, and to the Jimmy Carter-era “Dazed and Malaised” Congress that brought FISA into existence.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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CY opined:
"Is it just my reading of this passage, or does this article seem to suggest that presiding judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly—attempting to assuage their concerns, as the passage states—has knowledge of the Bush executive order and it's legal justifications, and buys into it enough to sponsor a briefing for other FISA judges?"
It is just your reading. Equally likely is her concern that the President has overstepped his authority. But given your love for the all powerful executive (though not likely in a Democratic administration)that wouldn't occur to you.
Time will tell.
Posted by: ArthurStone at December 22, 2005 10:34 AM (ZVJnb)
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Why am I not surprised by Artie's bonehead response to CY's opinion?
Hey Artie! Have you bothered to actually read the legal views on this issue expressed by a wide variety of courts, including the U.S. Supreme Court? How is it that all of these courts have ruled in favor of the President's authority when it comes to tasking the Intelligence surveillance organization - The National Security Agency - to target foreign and international communications known to have ties to al Qaeda and other terrorist entities?
I am really doubting that you have a clue about the Law or legal precedent. It appears to me and others that you are just a "hot air machine."
Popcorn, anyone?
Posted by: Retired Spy at December 22, 2005 10:52 AM (AaKND)
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Even ignoring the Legal aspect, how about just Common Sense? There is no real infringment on our rights (here comes the complaints about the 4th). The NSA can get better intel to keep us safer, it is being monitered by legal experts a lot more experienced and smarter than I am. And who knows, we may stop a bad guy or two.
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 22, 2005 11:20 AM (PJ4Iq)
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the US Constitution protects us from UNreasonable searches.
REASONABLE ones made by the govt are A-OK.
and if intercepts target foreign powers/agents and are NOT used for evidence in a court - but only for military action, then the CinC can order them wiothout anyone else's approval.
Even FISA only says that the pres must INFORM the USA AG and get concurrence and inform Congressional leadership. They do NOT have veto over the pres.
Posted by: reliapundit at December 22, 2005 12:10 PM (AV77T)
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You know, it might not be a bad idea to look at the body of Judge Kollar-Kotelly's work before trying to guess what she's saying. She's not exactly a shill for Executive power. Check out her ruling on lawyer access to Guantanamo prisoners.
Posted by: CharleyCarp at December 22, 2005 12:12 PM (pCHZL)
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Will any kind of action be taken agains that traitor who resigned from the court? It seems to me that he could be prosecuted under the Patriot Act. It may not be fair to label him en enemy combatant but certainly his actions give comfort to the enemy.
Posted by: Smithy at December 22, 2005 12:14 PM (V4LLQ)
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Equally likely is her concern that the President has overstepped his authority.
"Equally likely" or wishful thinking?
But given your love for the all powerful executive (though not likely in a Democratic administration)that wouldn't occur to you.
But given Artie's almost pathological hatred of Bush (
a trait that will ultimately be the democrats' undoing) the idea that this is all just a another political stunt wouldn't occur to him.
Time will tell
Yes it will with the most likely outcome being that this "scandal" will go the way of every other "scandal" drummed up by the donks.
Bush unscathed and the democrats looking like fools. (
again)
Posted by: Elephant Man at December 24, 2005 10:12 AM (iAa89)
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If you all don't think he would be impeached if we had an independent counsel law, you're crazy. The only reason he gets away unscathed is because Republicans control both houses of Congress. God save the President if Dems capture the House next election cycle. Also, it is of no moment to me that a prior president (republican or democrat) asserted the same authority - it is a separation of powers issue, not a political one. Presidents have a prediliction, if not an obligation, to protect the powers of the Presidency.
Posted by: Congress' Pocket at December 28, 2005 06:39 PM (Ob/Pa)
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Congress, you keep popping around under different names, trying to appear as if you are more than one poster. That is highly dishonest. Consider yourself banned.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 28, 2005 06:43 PM (0fZB6)
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December 21, 2005
Motives and Madmen
No wonder President Bush
has been at ease the past few days.
While details of Bush's NSA Executive Order to conduct warrantless surveillance on suspected terrorist operatives remains classified, the "smoking gun" case of Presidential misconduct made by the New York Times is showing signs of falling completely apart under the weight of Constitutional law and similar national security precedents made by previous presidential administrations.
President Jimmy Carter's Executive Order 12139 approved electronic surveillance above and beyond FISA to acquire foreign intelligence information without a court order as long as it was certified by the attorney general. This executive order issued by Carter has never been challenged, and seems to be very close to the content of Bush's current still classified order.
President Bill Clinton's Executive Order 12949 expanded upon Carters provisions to include warrantless physical searches.
So what damning new information does the Times crusading book promoter James Risen and his faithful sidekick Eric Lichtblau bring us today?
The most evil of all horrors: the accidental surveillance of international cell phones and email addresses suspected to belong to terrorists once they've crossed into the United States:
A surveillance program approved by President Bush to conduct eavesdropping without warrants has captured what are purely domestic communications in some cases, despite a requirement by the White House that one end of the intercepted conversations take place on foreign soil, officials say.
The officials say the National Security Agency's interception of a small number of communications between people within the United States was apparently accidental, and was caused by technical glitches at the National Security Agency in determining whether a communication was in fact "international."
Telecommunications experts say the issue points up troubling logistical questions about the program. At a time when communications networks are increasingly globalized, it is sometimes difficult even for the N.S.A. to determine whether someone is inside or outside the United States when making a cellphone call or sending an e-mail message. As a result, people that the security agency may think are outside the United States are actually on American soil.
Jump to:
But in at least one instance, someone using an international cellphone was thought to be outside the United States when in fact both people in the conversation were in the country. Officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the program remains classified, would not discuss the number of accidental intercepts, but the total is thought to represent a very small fraction of the total number of wiretaps that Mr. Bush has authorized without getting warrants.
Say a Canadian al Qaeda suspect checks his email on his laptop in a flat in Fort Erie, Canada. He takes a short bus ride across the Peace Bridge to Buffalo, New York, grabs a gingerbread latte at the Starbucks on Delaware and Kenmore, and he checks this same email account again. By monitoring this same email account accessed on the same computer, the NSA committed the kind of accidental illegal intercept that Risen and Lichtblau are complaining about.
I don't know about you, but I'm just livid with outrage... but not at the NSA, nor President Bush.
The Times has been reduced to complaining that a handful of suspected terrorists targeted for international surveillance got into the United States and were accidentally still monitored.
Ahem. I never suspected that NY Times reporters would ever be charged with being Administration cronies, but by advocating against the best interests of the United States over such trivial details, Risen and Lichtblau give us every reason to doubt their true motives and allegiances.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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You may want to add F-A-M-E
That way they can go on a talking circuit after the books and TV interviews.
By the way, if you read CY's post on the ROVEING the TIMES story, he addresses where those two mindless twits could be used by the Intelligence community, in that case the aren't "Useless Idiots" but the Useful ones so Army may have gotten a point over Navy.
)
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 21, 2005 08:12 AM (cqZXM)
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The Carter and Clinton executive orders were directed only at foreign agents, and did not authorize warrantless searches nor surveillence of U.S. citizens.
Get your facts straight before you echo crap from Drudge.
Posted by: ross at December 21, 2005 12:25 PM (f30nY)
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Ross
Here is an interesting link you may wish to read
http://www.nationalreview.com/mccarthy/mccarthy200512201735.asp
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 21, 2005 12:52 PM (BuYeH)
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Ross, you should probably read
this in addition to Retired Navy's link, but more importantly you should read what John Schmidt, associate attorney general under Bill Clinton had to say. He states flat out the President's authority in this matter is a constutional obligation. Whats more, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review says, and I quote:
"All the ... courts to have decided the issue held that the president did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence ... We take for granted that the president does have that authority."
Got that, Ross? "We take for granted" means that the court views the Constitutional authority of the president in this role is so absolute in this matter as to be beyond question.
Goldstein has the link to the Tribune article Schmidt wrote and far more.
Ross, you either do not know, or have simply forgetten, that information monitored that the information monitored had at least one-leg outside of the United States. Clinton also authorized
and used warrantless physical searches of U.S. citizens, and evidence collected in such searches put away CIA spy Aldrich Ames.
Please do try on the long pants. You will find that you aren't ready for them yet.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 21, 2005 01:22 PM (g5Nba)
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I feel that we should expand the surveillance so that we can monitor those engaging in the war on Christmas. The ACLU is attacking our heritage. I would feel more comfortable if I knew that their communications were being monitored. And I think 53% of the population probably agrees with me.
Posted by: Smithy at December 22, 2005 12:17 PM (V4LLQ)
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I think what Ross was trying to say, and what none of you have disproved, is that Drudge, and the idea that Clinton did the exact same thing as Bush, have been totaly debunked.
You want a link
here ya go.
Posted by: Fred at December 22, 2005 05:31 PM (fqmuR)
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Fred:
How in the hell do YOU know what Ross
meant in his flimsy statement? Are you and Ross one in the same person - or just joined at the brain?
Ross stated that "[those] executive orders were directed only at foreign agents, and did not authorize warrantless searches nor surveillence of U.S. citizens."
Your references state, in essence, that there needed to be authorization by the Attorney General. The same provision is covered under FISA section 1802. There was nothing in your references that prohibited surveillance of American citizens.
Ross made no mention of Drudge. You did!
Don't give us any sh*t about authorization only against foreign Intelligence, either. If American citizens or persons residing in the United States are communicating with known terrorists overseas, they become de facto agents of the foreign entity. That is what Bush has done in tasking the NSA. The target is international communications with known connections to terrorist organizations.
Did you even bother to read what CY posted here?
You lefties are so easy.
Posted by: Retired Spy at December 22, 2005 06:50 PM (AaKND)
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"Get your facts straight before you echo crap from Drudge," is what I believe Ross stated, and thats what this post appears to echo indeed.
Read my post, I'm not going to hog space here. http://fredbieling.blogspot.com/2005/12/theyve-already-got-us-on-some-list.html
Posted by: Fred at December 22, 2005 08:19 PM (fqmuR)
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I read your Blog, Fred. I was not impressed. I can't imagine that anyone with an IQ above room temperature would be impressed either - except for the extreme left moonbats .....
You're right. Ross DID mention Drudge. I guess I was so unimpressed by his first sentence than I knew nothing else could have been of value either. I was right!
Posted by: Retired Spy at December 22, 2005 09:51 PM (AaKND)
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Well thank you for at least giving me a chance. I was sure you'd have liked my "
In praise of a Republican" post, or the one I sited above, but hey... can't please everyone. It's the
comments section where I really shine anyways.
Posted by: Fred at December 23, 2005 07:11 AM (fqmuR)
11
It's the comments section where I really shine anyways.
If that's true, why waste money on a blog? You can bloviate er, "shine" on someone else's dime.
Posted by: Elephant Man at December 27, 2005 08:51 PM (iAa89)
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December 20, 2005
Bush: Roving the Times?
With James Risen presumably off reading the galley proofs of his forthcoming book
Screwing Over America (For Fun and Profit), David Sanger joined in
the next installment of Eric Lichtblau's year-long fevered pursuit to tip al Qaeda to the nature of NSA-run surveillance operation authorized by a White House executive order in the wake of the September 11, 2001 terror attacks.
Despite the ill will of the Times, the present administration is standing firm. Law professor/blogger Ann Althouse even notes of Bush's impromptu press conference Monday morning:
I'm just reading, but it seems to me that he's awfully relaxed, joking like this, when he's under fire about not complying with FISA restrictions...
And later:
I'm watching the C-Span replay of the press conference now, and I'm even more impressed by the strength of Bush's confidence. This man is happy.
It does seem like very odd behavior for a man that is, if the Times is correct, on the edge of not only losing one of American's most effective surveillance tools, but of facing a political firestorm that have some of his fevered foes calling for impeachment.
As some of the nation's top legal minds spent Monday building an unfavorable case against him based upon what the Times has leaked, and what his own administration had confirmed... hey, wait just a cotton-pickin' minute.
I think I've seen this film before.
Indulge me, please, for just a moment.
The NY Times discovers a top secret internal spying effort by the Bush Administration. The Times presumes that their sources are accurate (indeed they may be), and presumes to know most if not all of the facts. They then hold onto this information for approximately one year, flushing it out with information from confidential sources, before finally breaking the story last week. Bush's only known attempt to quash publication?
As a breathless Jonathan Alter explains:
I learned this week that on December 6, Bush summoned Times publisher Arthur Sulzberger and executive editor Bill Keller to the Oval Office in a futile attempt to talk them out of running the story. The Times will not comment on the meeting, but one can only imagine the president's desperation.
Indeed. Bush was so desperate, in fact, that he gave two of his most relaxed press conferences in recent memory. Perhaps the NY Times can't see it, or perhaps I'm just a bit fevered, but the Bush Administration appears to be writing this story in the national media as much as they are starring in it.
Let me offer up these simple thoughts for you to consider:
The Bush administration has known for a year that the New York Times was investigating and intended to run at some point a story about the executive order NSA.
The government probably figured out exactly what James Risen and Eric Lichtblau knew about the program within the first week of their investigation coming to light.
The government could easily "turn" any of Risen's and Lichtblau's informants with the very real, legally valid threat of long-term accommodations of the government's choosing. It could then use these turncoats to feed "fake but accurate" information to the NY Times.
The result?
The release of a story with just enough truth to be thought credible by enemies both "foreign and domestic." The story causes a cascade of irregular signal activity that "paints" terror cells as clearly as active sonar on a submarine. Unwittingly, the Times contributes to the NSA project.
If you are willing to go that far, one then has to ask this question: is the NSA program mentioned in the Times the program actually being run, or was the Times misled into being "useful idiots" for an entirely legal program out of the reach of FISA entirely?
My contention? Military intelligence operates outside of FISA restrictions that control domestic surveillance organizations, and if the NSA is collecting intercepted information offshore and is feeding it directly to the military to kill or capture bad guys overseas, the Bush's AUMF justification is both crystal clear and perfectly legal. If this is true, teh seemingly murkey explanations the Adminstration had been giving for the past week would be perfecty accurate, as well, would they not?
The fake civilian spying program can run its course to be "shutdown," while the real military program continues to run and provide for our safety in the cover of its own apparent grave.
This is of course, all just wild speculationÂ…
Isn't it?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Good Theory, the only problem I really see with it is it may only be a one shot deal. The terrorists now are looking for other ways to communicate. That, to me, is the biggest problem of leaking out this information. We now have one less tool to use in the on-going struggle with terrorism.
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 20, 2005 06:49 AM (Mv/2X)
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You ought to be writing spy novels. The NY Times, tricked into actually helping defend the country from terrorists? Too beautiful to be real.
Posted by: Van Helsing at December 20, 2005 06:28 PM (e8Fsv)
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Dear Sirs,
I was in the Army Security Agency 1961-1963. We were a collection arm for the NSA. The Air Force Security Service and the Naval Intelligence Service served the same function. The military supplied the logistics and the manpower at that time. The ferret aircraft that were shot down and the ship captured by the NOK's were on NSA missions.
I don't know if it still works that way. They don't talk about it much.
Regards,
Roy
Posted by: Roy Lofquist at December 20, 2005 06:53 PM (SBoXv)
4
Sounds like we might hear of some sudden retirements from CIA.
Or maybe
won't hear of some sudden retirements from the Directorate of intelligence.
Bubye.
Posted by: Charlie (Colorado) at December 21, 2005 01:00 PM (6eJlh)
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December 19, 2005
¿Cómo se dice, "Stupid?"
Mother Sheehan was on the whine in Madrid. via
Breitbart:
Anti-war activist Cindy Sheehan led a small protest Saturday outside the U.S. Embassy to denounce the war in Iraq.
About 100 protesters carried banners criticizing President Bush.
Sheehan, whose soldier son was killed in Iraq, called Bush a war criminal and said, "Iraq is worse than Vietnam."
Of course it is, Cindy. This time we're winning.
Cindy apparently still has grass in her eyes from her last stomach-churning photo op.
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It's weird that no one quoted what she was saying when they snapped this photo. "Why! Why! Why did I belittle my son's memory! I'm so embarrassed."
Posted by: Kevin at December 19, 2005 01:09 PM (Eq/i5)
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Actually, this photo was shot right after her media handler told her how many people showed up for her latest book signing.
Posted by: Maggie at December 19, 2005 06:27 PM (QKXCW)
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Tu dices que; la gringa perra esta estupido y loco o sin un cerebro.
You say that; the Yankee bitch is crazy and stupid or without a brain.
Posted by: RiverRat at December 19, 2005 10:29 PM (oNFas)
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I think she is "whine"ding down
Posted by: Shoprat at December 20, 2005 11:26 AM (I6DQp)
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It looks like she's showing her reaction when Bubba Clinton gave her the "blue dress" treatment.
*guffaw*
(
Sorry, I know that's a bit "over the top" but I couldn't resist)
Posted by: Elephant Man at December 21, 2005 10:42 AM (iAa89)
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Reid: I'm not Corrupt, and I'm Keeping the Money
How is that again, Harry?
"Don't lump me in with Jack Abramoff. This is a Republican scandal," Reid told Fox News Sunday, saying he never received any money from Abramoff.
Reid, like many members of Congress, Democrats and Republicans, has received campaign contributions from Abramoff clients. Some lawmakers have returned those donations, but Reid gave no indication he would do so.
He never received any money, and he won't give back the money he didn't take in the first place. What is the definition of a honest politician again?
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He tried the same line on the wire-tapping thing. Yes I was informed months ago, but it's all the president's fault (and it was wrong). Something like that.
It was too funny watching him try to dodge the question the first time, and get really pissed when Wallace repeated the question, forcing him to answer
Chris Wallace rocks.
Posted by: Kevin at December 19, 2005 01:16 PM (Eq/i5)
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I lived in Nevada for 17 years and listened to our Senator Reid talk way too many times. He always seemed to manage to work in the fact he'd grown up poor in Searchlight and had spent most of his adult life in service to Nevada. Since he became a multi-millionaire in the process one can't help but wonder just who he was really serving.
Posted by: Fish at December 19, 2005 01:38 PM (KpjA/)
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Risen's New Lows
New York Times reporters James Risen and Eric Lichtblau
continued their assault on America's domestic security today in an article that sensationalizes the scope of Bush's executive order, studiously avoids the Administration's legal justification for NSA surveillance of terror suspects, and avoids addressing their own moral culpability in the almost certainly illegal leaking of classified intelligence information in on-going anti-terror operations.
Risen (who just happens to have a book coming out very soon) and Lichtblau start their article with this bit of willful misdirection:
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on Sunday defended President Bush's decision to secretly authorize the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans without seeking warrants, saying the program was carefully controlled and necessary to close gaps in the nation's counterterrorism efforts.
To read Risen and Lichtblau today one might get the impression that any and all Americans are subject to a warrantless search. That is not the case, as Risen and Lichtblau themselves state just a few days ago:
Under a presidential order signed in 2002, the intelligence agency has monitored the international telephone calls and international e-mail messages of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people inside the United States without warrants over the past three years in an effort to track possible "dirty numbers" linked to Al Qaeda, the officials said.
Only those people thought to be communicating and collaborating with al Qaeda terrorists overseas were subject to surveillance. Risen and Lichtblau purposefully conflate the limited number of people affected to drum up hysteria in the American people their nation is spying on them.
This is a dishonest attempt to engender fears (and no doubt advanced book sales) that a narrowly-tailored executive order targeting just a few hundred or few thousand terrorist-linked email addresses and phone numbers, is general surveillance of all citizen communications in a nation of 295 million.
Legally Blind
Risen and Lichtblau are more than willing to mention that the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (FISA) requires a court order to seek surveillance on suspected terrorists or spies, but somehow, they seem unable to find a legal precedent from 2000 entitled U.S vs. bin Laden (h/t Instapundit) that says in part:
“Circuit courts applying Keith [that's the FISA law] to the foreign intelligence context have affirmed the existence of a foreign intelligence exception to the warrant requirement for searches conducted within the United States that target foreign powers or their agents.”
While I'm no lawyer (nor do I play one on television), it would seem to me that that U.S. courts have an established judicial precedent for bypassing FISA in certain circumstances - the circumstances that two Attorney Generals, Justice Department, lawyers and White House Counsel all seem to affirm that President Bush was within his constitutional authority in addressing with his executive order to the NSA.
Other useful bits of information the Times crack reporters seem to have trouble finding—or at least reporting—were Executive Order 12333 issued while Ronald Reagan was in office, stipulations of FISA itself, and the President's constitutional authority, as noted by Hugh Hewitt:
Overlooked in most of the commentary on the New York Times article is the simple, undeniable fact that the president has the power to conduct warantless surveillance of foreign powers conspiring to kill Americans or attack the government. The Fourth Amendment, which prohibits "unreasonable" searches and seizures has not been interpreted by the Supreme Court to restrict this inherent presidential power. The 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (an introduction from a critic of the Act is here) cannot be read as a limit on a constitutional authority even if the Act purported to so limit that authority.
"Further, the instant case requires no judgment on the scope of the President's surveillance power with respect to the activities of foreign powers, within or without this country."
That is from the 1972 decision in United States v. United States District Court for the Eastern District of Michigan et al, (407 U.S. 297) which is where the debate over the president's executive order ought to begin and end. The FISA statute can have no impact on a constitutional authority, any more than an Act of Congress could diminish the First Amendment protection provided newspapers. Statutes cannot add to or detract from constitutional authority.
In short, a truthful, competent year-long investigation of President Bush's executive order regarding surveillance of terror suspects should have reflected the legal basis from which the authority was drawn.
It is a shame that honest reporting, or for that matter, the safety of the American people, are of little apparent concern for the Times and its reporters.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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It's questionable whether the Times would publish it, but this should be sent to the NY times in the form of a letter to the editor. You at least have to let them know that you and your readers know what terrible liars they are!
Posted by: Donald Dewey at December 19, 2005 09:22 AM (MKnJt)
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To Old Soldier,
I take exception to the fact you calld them "Useful Idiots". What use do they have?
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 19, 2005 09:41 AM (JSetw)
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One small (but probably important) correction in the citation above.
Keith was a Supreme Court decision that predated the establishment of FISA by 7 years. Keith is not the same as FISA; although the justices in Keith, including the majority opinion written by Justice Powell, argued for a FISA-type of court and laws.
So, one could say that FISA is a progeny of Keith.
Posted by: SteveMG at December 19, 2005 09:59 AM (MD9z8)
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Old Soldier,
The rest of your post stands perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned. Maybe we could just amend it to "Useless Idiots". Besides, my little tongue in cheek was meant to make you smile even over two boneheads that wouldn't know real news if it bit them you know where.
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 19, 2005 12:20 PM (JYeBJ)
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Confederate Yankee wrote:
To read Risen and Lichtblau today one might get the impression that any and all Americans are subject to a warrantless search.
...
Only those people thought to be communicating and collaborating with al Qaeda terrorists overseas were subject to surveillance.
If there is no oversight to the process, then these two statements are perfectly compatible. Any American can be thought to be collaborating with Al Qaeda terrorists and thus subjected to warrantless search and surveillance.
I'm not saying that they are in fact misusing this power -- I'm complaining that I have no way of knowing if they are. You're saying to blindly trust the President because there's no way that the President would misuse his power. I claim that the past has shown that anyone given power without oversight is capable of abusing that power.
I agree that domestic terrorism is a theat, but it is important to keep it in perspective to other threats. Compare for a moment the total number of murders within the U.S. in the past three years (over 48,000) to the number of people killed by Islamic terrorism.
Posted by: jhkim at December 19, 2005 01:55 PM (l3ixn)
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You're saying to blindly trust the President because there's no way that the President would misuse his power.
No, I'm not saying anything of the sort. This executive order, to be the best of my limited knowledge of executive orders, is very heavily "lawyered up."
This executive order, before being implemented the first time, went through Attorney General John Ashcroft and the best lawyers in the United States Justice Department, who worked very closely with White House Counsel to ensure that the EE was a legal compliment to FISA.
Since its inception, it has been reviewed and approved more than three dozen times by two Attorney's General and the best legal minds in the United States government (career government lawyers that will have to use this evidence in court, not politicians, it bears repeating). It is also created with the knowledge of the FISA court (which few seem to want to acknowledge), which is still updated on the use of the document. Leaders of both parties, in both houses of Congress, have known about this program from its inception, and have been updated on its progress no less than a dozen times. None had any apparent problems with it.
Blind trust? Hardly.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 19, 2005 02:34 PM (g5Nba)
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While I can understand your concern that there is no oversight (one I can share if I believed it to be true), there have been briefings to congressional leaders quite a few times. This has not been blanket Big Brother move but more of a surgical strike to look into activites deemed "questionable" in reguards to National Security.
I have stated before I fully support our constitiution and rights but this doesn't violate them. If you arent doing anything wrong you shouldn't have anything to worry about.
The American public (Both Liberal and Conservative) would not let any kind of police state to happen. I may be hopefully optomistic but I even believe all of Congress would not let that happen. I do think that you have to protect Life first, then Liberty then let people persue happiness. I believe that on a Global scale, not just for us in the U.S.
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 19, 2005 02:35 PM (cqZXM)
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Retired Navy - Question for you. Why should they not get warrants to listen to the conversations of American citizens? According to the law they are even allowed to listen and then get a warrant up to 72 hours later. But they MUST get a warrant according to the law and the Constitution.
Why let them decide to just violate that law? And doesn't the violation of law bother you at all? Doesn't it seem to imply that they were doing soething they COULDN'T get a warrant to do?
FYI Both Bob Graham and Harry Reid say they were NOT briefed. Reid has said he was told one sentence four years after the warrantless spying began. (Graham was head of the Intelligence Committee at the time the warrantless spying began.)
Apparently four Republicans were briefed - that's it.
Posted by: Dave Johnson at December 19, 2005 05:05 PM (8e8Ir)
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Dave,
Where on earth are you getting your information? Reid has admitted he was briefed, and his words have been reported in dozens if not hundreds of sources. Simply type in his name and NSA in a Google News search. You guys aren't waiting even a week to start revising history. Is that a record?
Democrats and Republican leaders in both houses were notified, along with thw House and Senate intelligence committees including Daschle when he was in office. You should really rely on something other than Kos and the Onion as news sources.
While getting FISA warrants approved is relatively easy, going through the procedural mechanism to get requests to to the FISA court can take months. That is well documented.
You are also completely wrong when you state that they have to have warrants in all circumstances(the courts say no, you don't in terror cases, and I'll provide case law later). Nor did this order violate the constitution, and in fact it derives it power expressly from the Constituion.
I'll have more tonight, Dave, so be sure to check back then. I mention it once before and I'll say it again: This is going to be the CBS/Mary Mapes story all over again, but bigger.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 19, 2005 05:28 PM (g5Nba)
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Indeed. If Congress was so thoroughly briefed, why did, say, Republican Arlen Specter say "There is no doubt that this is inappropriate" -- as stated in the Fox News Story which you yourself linked to?
I don't know for sure if what was done had some constitutional justification or not. I'll leave that up to Congress and the courts, eventually. But I think it is irresponsible to say that anyone concerned about the allegations are unthinking Leftists.
Posted by: jhkim at December 19, 2005 05:35 PM (l3ixn)
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Its hard to believe that you guys are bending over backwards to justify wide spread violation of the 4th Amendment. The Executive does not have the authority to impugn civil liberties without oversight of the Judicial branch. Why would Bush do an end run around FISA courts? The only reason that makes sense is that it was done for political, not defense or anti-terrorism, purposes.
Bush has violated his oath of office and should be impeached.
Posted by: John Gillnitz at December 19, 2005 05:39 PM (eHLUP)
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Any reason is a good reason to proceed with impeachment hearings for Bush, right? Even if he operated within the law? Doesn't matter, right? Just get the SOB outa office at any cost; right, wrong or indifferent!
How many times does it have to be referenced that the President acted within his executive powers? Try reading another discourse here:
http://crushliberalism.blogspot.com/2005/12/some-much-needed-perspective-on-bushs.html.
If the Democrats put just half as much effort into supporting this country as they do opposing Bush at every turn, Iraq would be settled business and we could be having a whole new line of discourse about Iran. I'm sorry, I just find the whole Democrat obstruction gig over the top. I believe it will tell on the party come November '06, too.
Posted by: Old Soldier at December 19, 2005 07:04 PM (9ABza)
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Oh, please. At least the current complaints have something vaguely to do with what Bush is doing in his role as President. At around this point in Clinton's terms, the Right was screaming bloody murder and trying to impeach him over fooling around with some intern. Pot... kettle... black.
Posted by: jhkim at December 19, 2005 08:21 PM (l3ixn)
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jhkim, you ask:
Indeed. If Congress was so thoroughly briefed, why did, say, Republican Arlen Specter say "There is no doubt that this is inappropriate" -- as stated in the Fox News Story which you yourself linked to?
Do you actually read things? Is suspect not, or you would note that the people notified were members of House and Senate intelligence committees and the House and Senate leadership. Specter is neither, and did not need to be notified at the time.
John,
There are two apparent 4th amendment exceptions (border search and national security) that apply as noted by law professor Orin Kerr, and the Article II point many are making is far from being unconstitutional or illegal, it seems, becuase it has never been tested. By definition, if something has not yet been defined, it is not unconstitutional, nor illegal. It is possibly an untested "first principles" case.
Clinton was impeached for perjury, by the way.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 19, 2005 09:23 PM (0fZB6)
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"At around this point in Clinton's terms, the Right was screaming bloody murder and trying to impeach him over fooling around with some intern. Pot... kettle... black."
As CY pointed out, it wasn't about sex, it was about lying under oath; something we would expect the chief executive to NOT do. Oh, BTW, perjury is actually an impeachable offense. Pot – black, Kettle – clean.
Posted by: Old Soldier at December 19, 2005 09:54 PM (9ABza)
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What some folks have not discussed here is how Bill Clinton used his Office to instruct the NSA to monitor U.S. citizens inside the U.S. who were employed by foreign companies. The Clinton efforts were not to thwart any terrorists. Thet were reportedly attempts by Clinton to spy on foreign corporations through U.S. employees inside the U.S.
It was the subject of a CBS 60 Minutes piece early in 2000. The NSA program was called Project Echelon, according to CBS and others.
When I was with the NSA during the Reagan Administration, we were absoltely forbidden to perform such surveillance. It is a different world out there now.
Posted by: Retired Spy at December 20, 2005 12:20 AM (AaKND)
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A couple of observations to separate rhetoric from fact:
FIRST, A FEW NOTES ABOUT FISA...
It is interesting to read the way FISA defines "Electronic Surveillance"[as found in 50 U.S.C.A. § 1801(f), read it for yourself]. Using simple logic, it is even more interesting how those definitions create several gaping loopholes that, taken in conjunction of established case precedent of the presidential power for warrantless searches involving national security issues, would clearly allow monitoring of persons in the U.S. without a FISA warrant. Consider what FISA does NOT regulate as electronic surveillance:
1. The acquisition of any radio communication in which either one of the intended recipients or the sender is outside the United States and the purpose of the interception is not to target specifically a United States citizen or permanent resident of the U.S.(i.e., illegals or non-permanent residents may be freely monitored by the U.S. in this situation, even while in U.S. Cellular phones come to mind).
2. Any interception of a wire communication from any person in the U.S. if the communication is intercepted outside U.S. Territory and, again, the purpose of the interception is not to target specifically a United States citizen or permanent resident of the U.S. (again, virtually any international call may be tapped just outside U.S. territory, as in just offshore, etc.)
Thinking creatively, these loopholes allow an intelligence officer to gather a great deal of information under Presidential authority for a warrantless search, even considering the confines of FISA.
AND NOW ABOUT FISA IN GENERAL...
At first blush, one would assume that FISA is the end-all, be-all of domestic surveillance. This is true only when one assumes that a warrant is necessary under the Fourth Amendment to conduct all searches. Of course, this is not true. Consider the recent case of In re Sealed Case, 310 F.3d 717 (2002)[heard by the FISA court's own special appeals court, the U.S. Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review], which cogently stated in pertinent part that:
"The distinction between ordinary criminal prosecutions and extraordinary situations underlies the Supreme Court's approval of entirely warrantless and even suspicionless searches that are designed to serve the government's "special needs, beyond the normal need for law enforcement." Vernonia School Dist. 47J v. Acton, 515 U.S. 646, 653, 115 S.Ct. 2386, 2391, 132 L.Ed.2d 564 (1995) (quoting Griffin v. Wisconsin, 483 U.S. 868, 873, 107 S.Ct. 3164, 3168, 97 L.Ed.2d 709 (1987)[stating that "A search unsupported by probable cause can be constitutional, we have said, 'when special needs, beyond the normal need for law enforcement, make the warrant and probable-cause requirement impracticable.'"].
Furthemore, the same court openly assumed in its closing statement that the President had "inherent constitutional authority to conduct warrantless foreign intelligence surveillance."
And therein lies the rub for the recent FISA evangelists in Congress: Congress cannot pass any law that restricts the inherent constitutional authority of another branch -- no more than the President can disband Congress or the Supreme Court can set next year's fiscal budget. In short, implementation of national security is the exclusive province of the Commander-in-Chief, and it will be entertaining to see FISA go down in flames in a future court case as an unconstitutional restriction of the President's authority to defend the country where special needs dictate the immediate surveillance of known or suspected terrorists in our midst.
Posted by: Atticus_NC at December 20, 2005 12:43 AM (3lxJi)
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There is an added wrinkle to consider - for what it is worth. As Commander in Chief, the president has the responsibility for directing all components of the military, including the Department of Defense. That is his responsibility under the U.S. Constitution. Anyone care to argue with that?
Well, The National Security Agency is a Department of Defense organization. It's budget is within the DoD budget authorizations, and its Director has ALWAYS been a military Flag Officer. I just find that an interesting little factoid for the armchair lawyers to consider.
Would that not make the president the Commander in Chief of the NSA?
Posted by: Retired Spy at December 20, 2005 12:49 AM (AaKND)
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Retired Spy:
It certainly would!
Posted by: Atticus_NC at December 20, 2005 12:56 AM (3lxJi)
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"Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so."
George Bush, April 2004.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040420-2.html#
Posted by: lucas at December 20, 2005 11:25 PM (QhIkH)
21
Congratulations Lucas! You "caught" President Bush talking about domestic wiretaps inside the United States as performed by the FBI under the Patriot Act.
I'm starting to understand why liberals can't discuss this issue intelligently...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 20, 2005 11:46 PM (0fZB6)
22
To catch Bush on a "lie" on this topic is akin to sending all intelligence agents to hell for lying in the name of protecting our country.
So, it's okay to lie about sex with Monica, but not okay to lie to the American people to protect a covert program to catch terrorists?
Get a grip, people. I mean -- really. As Supreme Court justice Robert Jackson so deftly said: "The Constitution is not a suicide pact." Neither is telling the American people the truth all the time, sacrificing full disclosure in the name of putting a terrorist bulls-eye on our foreheads.
Posted by: Atticus_NC at December 21, 2005 08:49 PM (3lxJi)
23
Our new pal, Lucas, is regurgitating the same garbage that Alan Colmes used as 'evidence' on the Hannity and Colmes Show last night. I sent Colmes an email to set him straight. Other liberals were using the same quote.
As CY noted, these boneheads provide us with clear insight into why liberals can only accuse - not discuss intelligently.
They don't know the difference between physical wiretaps and collection of electromagnetic emissions through the airwaves? Duh!
Posted by: Retired Spy at December 22, 2005 04:11 PM (AaKND)
24
Bravo! I've found an educated, intelligent discussion board. Atticus and Confederate Yankee, thank you -- your comments and references have greatly aided my view of events and debates with the lazy. (Lazy: those that repeat rantings of "Evil!" without researching what really happened; often called ignorant, their ignorance comes from laziness.)
Posted by: globalroamer at December 30, 2005 03:43 PM (B+qrE)
25
I am curious? Why do you discuss things with "Kos types"? They have no intelligence to understand ANYTHING. No left wing DemocRat idiot does?
Posted by: leaddog2 at December 30, 2005 07:02 PM (Dg+Be)
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