January 31, 2007
AP Re-Enters Hurriyah; Is Unable to Find Lost Credibility
I received an email from Linda Wagner of the Associated Press late this afternoon, alerting me that AP has posted a pair of new news reports by Sally Buzbee about Hurriyah, and that Wagner herself has issued forth a new statement. All three are available at the following link:
http://www.ap.org/response/response_112806a.html
As Linda was nice enough to contact me directly, we'll start with her statement first:
01/31/07
AP STATEMENT
From Linda Wagner
Director of Media Relations & Public Affairs
The Associated Press
All news organizations covering the war in Iraq have faced a severe security situation since the conflict began. The risks have risen dramatically in recent months as sectarian conflicts have escalated.
Some have criticized APÂ’s use of anonymous sources and its refusal to identify by name all AP staff members who have contributed to reporting about violent incidents in the Hurriyah district of Baghdad.
AP has already lost four staff members killed in Iraq. Upon the death earlier this month of the most recent AP staff member killed there, AP President and CEO Tom Curley said, "The situation for our journalists in Iraq is unprecedented in AP's 161-year history of covering wars and conflicts. The courage of our Iraqi colleagues and their dedication to the story stand as an example to the world of journalism's enduring value."
Without protecting the identities of many of its sources and staff members from the extraordinary dangers in Iraq, it is impossible to provide news coverage of many events in the violent conflict about which the public has the right to know.
APÂ’s use of anonymous sources and unnamed staff members adheres to its ethics and journalism guidelines, which are among the most thorough and strict in the news media profession.
You can see APÂ’s ethics and journalism guidelines from the home page of www.ap.org -- click on this link at the top right : The AP Statement Of News Values and Principles. (direct URL: http://www.ap.org/newsvalues)
You can learn more about APÂ’s concern for the publicÂ’s right to know about the war in Iraq and many other public issues by visiting another link from its www.ap.org home page: AP and the People's Right to Know. (direct URL: http://www.ap.org/FOI/index.html)
Iraq is indeed a dangerous place, both for it's residents, and for those attempting to cover the war for news organizations. In 2006 alone, 32 journalists died.
It has been a long-standing journalistic tradition to have anonymity to when naming the journalist or the source might place their lives in danger. All of this is understood.
But Wagner's release flatly dodges the elephant in the room, the Iraqi police source hiding behind the pseudonym Jamil Hussein. It is quite clear that using an undeclared* pseudonym is a serious breach of journalistic ethics.
As perhaps a few of you may be aware, Associates Press Executive Editor Kathleen Carroll has officially maintained, for over two months now, that the AP's primary source for it's Hurriyah reporting has been a man she insists is Iraqi Police Captain Jamil Hussein. We know, however, that Jamil Hussein is not his real name, according Iraqi Interior Ministry personnel records, as provided to this blogger and others via CPATT and Multinational Corps-Iraq/Joint Operations Command Public Affairs.
Wagner has been contacted multiple times to explain this discrepancy, and others. To date, she has refused to address the issue of the pseudonym. For that matter, sheÂ’s refused to answer almost all questions about Hurriyah, or problems with APÂ’s stringer-based reporting methodology, so this does fit a pattern.
And now to the news, brought to you by Sally Buzbee, AP's chief of Middle East News.
The leading story, "Mosques still show damage from attacks in Hurriyah" has been covered extensively by Bryan Preston, Michelle Malkin and Curt at Flopping Aces. I have very little to add, except this: it is very interesting that of the four mosques "burned and blew up," this new AP account does not speak of any apparent fire damage at either the al-Muhaimin mosque or al-Qaqaqa mosque.
The relative intactness of the al-Muhaimin mosque is quite important, as AP's reporting claimed that 18 people, including women and children burned to death in an "inferno" during the November 24 attacks.
This picture captures worshipers in al-Muhaimin the very next day.
Soot and corpse free. The claim is apparenty a complete falsehood.
al-Qaqaqa? I'll let AP tell it:
The fourth mosque named in the AP's original report, the al-Qaqaqa mosque, also known as the al-Meshaheda mosque, has a broken window and is closed, guarded by Iraqi army troops outside and adorned with a picture of al-Sadr's father. It also has Mahdi Army graffiti scrawled on its side, partially whitewashed over but still readable.
A broken window and graffiti. By that standard, several apartment buildings I've lived in have been "burned and blew up."
Buzbee's second article, which focuses more fully on the transition of Hurriyah from a mixed neighborhood to one populated almost entirely by Shiites and run by Madhi Army militiamen, is a very well-written article, perhaps the most informative article on life in these neighborhoods after it has been overrun that I've seen thus far.
That said, when the subject of the November 24 attacks came up, the reporting just. gets. weird.
The fighting included a Nov. 24 attack by Mahdi Army militiamen on a number of Sunni mosques. At one, the AP reported -- based on statements of residents, a local Sunni sheik and a police officer -- six men were doused with fuel and burned alive by Shiite militiamen.
Getting vague on the number of mosques... interesting. That broken window must be bothering them.
As for the witnesses, they've suddenly reversed their order of importance. Originally, Jamil Hussein was the primary source, with Sunni elder Imad al-Hashimi playing a supporting role. The accounts from anonymous residents were added in follow-up stories.
Now, the anonymous residents are suddenly more important Why? The "Sunni sheik" Imad al-Hashimi has renounced his statement. Funny how they neglected to mention that. As for the police officer, I doubt many will forget the name of their primary source for dozens of stories leading up to this one. Hiding the name of Jamil Hussein simply seems duplicitous at this point.
And so, a statement and two stories later, the following questions still remain purposefully ignored and unresolved:
Do Executive Editor Kathleen Carroll and International Editor John Daniszewski intend to stand behind the AP-reported claim that 18 people died in an "inferno" at the al-Muhaimin mosque?
Do Executive Editor Kathleen Carroll and International Editor John Daniszewski intend to stand behind the AP-reported claim that 6 men were pulled from the al-Mustafa mosque and immolated?
Whatever happened to the claim by AP that AP Television captured videotaped footage of the al Mustafa mosque after the attack? Why has (to the best of my knowledge) that film never been made public?
Do Executive Editor Kathleen Carroll and International Editor John Daniszewski intend to stand behind the AP-reported claims that the four mosques "burned and blew up"?
Does the AP intend to issue any corrections or retractions based upon new evidence showing that the initial claims were over-exaggerated and inaccurate?
Does the AP feel it was responsible to refer to the Association of Muslim Scholars and an "influential" Sunni group, without revealing the fact that they are a radical Sunni group affiliated with the Sunni insurgency and al Qaeda that reputedly derives their income from kidnapping?
The Associated Press has not used Jamil "Hussein" as a source since the Hurriyah stories became contentious. Why has the Associated Press quit using him as a source?
Did Associated Press reporters in Baghdad ever question why "Hussein" was able to provide accounts far outside of his jurisdiction?
As more time goes by and the Associated Press story continues to founder, it appears more and more that their emphasis has changed from credible journalism to corporate damage control.
*added later. Following the link would have made it clear that an undeclared pseudonym, that is, a pseudonym that the author fails to identify as such, is unethical.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I assume you've seen this Channel 4 documentary on the danger and difficulty of reporting outside the green zone, but just in case (your spaminator won't allow the "G"-word, so replace the ** in the following url with "oo"):
http://video.g**gle.com/videoplay?docid=-3519855663545752103
It's called "Iraq: The Hidden Story", and it is 49 minutes long. I don't see how you can watch it and not "get it".
Posted by: LGFtard at January 31, 2007 11:21 PM (+RsBs)
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Okay, hold on a second. Al-Muhaimin is a Sunni mosque, yes?
So why does this picture show men and women praying together?
Posted by: Sadly, No! Research Labs at February 01, 2007 01:15 AM (yAao+)
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Please remind me of the meta-message behind this whole "scandal". The liberal MSM is emphasizing the violence going on in Iraq, instead of the many schools being painted and the flowers being thrown before the treads of our M113 Armored Personnel Carriers? Is that the point?
Posted by: Pennypacker at February 01, 2007 01:34 AM (yEbyl)
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Please remind me of the meta-message behind this whole "scandal".
The "meta-message" is that you shouldn't just make stuff up regardless of how good or bad the situation is. Journalism should aim to be truthful and accurate, not "fake but accurate."
Posted by: mike at February 01, 2007 08:31 AM (GLMrI)
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"...as provided to this blogger and others via CPATT and Multinational Corps-Iraq/Joint Operations Command Public Affairs."
And of course we know that the military never lies.
**cough** Pat Tillman **cough** **cough**
Posted by: The Venerable Ed at February 02, 2007 06:21 AM (D5NBi)
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My Irony Meter Just Pegged
Barak Obama, Democratic Senator from Illinois: "
The arguments of liberals are more often grounded in reason and fact."
Mary Landrieu, Democratic Senator from Louisiana: "we 'would have been better off if the terrorists had blown up our levees.'"
Comedy gold.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Obama's comment was accurate IMHO. The country is in a sad state specifically because of the lies and obfuscation of the administration. With recent history in mind, it is easy to see where Obama was going with his comments. For the comments of Landrieu, she was referring to the fact that if terrorists blew up the levees, they would probably have been fixed long before now. The words they spoke are clear, and in english. Why is it necessary to read stuff into the words?
Posted by: Tom at January 31, 2007 04:22 PM (2/n6+)
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Hey, come to think of it. If Obama had bangs and pointy ears, he would bear a striking resemblance to Mr. Spock.
Posted by: Tbird at January 31, 2007 05:09 PM (uR8cL)
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Tom, are you using "fixed" in the same sense that I used "fixed" when I said while leaving Manhattan just yesterday, "I'm glad they fixed that site by building the new tower. I could see for miles from the observation deck".
Yup, the Administration is the one that lies and obfuscates. IMHO, of course.
Posted by: Dusty at January 31, 2007 05:41 PM (GJLeQ)
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The REAL irony of it all is, as I sit here in Manhattan, we haven't received the aid he promised us either.
Posted by: Jody at January 31, 2007 05:50 PM (lisQy)
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I find most of the arguments liberals use to be based on logical fallacy. Tom illustrates this beautifully and adds to the irony of the original post.
He profers that the country is in a "sad state" and offers no metric to support what is an opinion. Opinion stated as fact does not make it fact. It makes it an unsupported assertion.
I find liberal arguments to be based mostly on ad hominem (Bush is dumb, cowboy, Hitler, etc), appeals to authority (2000 scientists say man is causing global warming), appeals to ignorance (the federal government did little or nothing after Katrina), false dilemmas (if you do not support X government wealth redistribution scheme, people will starve/go without healthcare).
Posted by: w3 at January 31, 2007 06:05 PM (9TtwK)
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Jody, what aid have "we" not received that he promised?
Posted by: Dusty at January 31, 2007 08:04 PM (GJLeQ)
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They just whining that NYC
only gets over $100M/year in DHS booty.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at January 31, 2007 09:28 PM (LITKT)
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Quit helping out, Purple. I asked Jody. :-)
Posted by: Dusty at February 01, 2007 01:49 AM (GJLeQ)
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Oh No, Joe!
It seems the Delaware Senator that Mark Levin long-ago named "the dumbest man in the U.S. Senate" has proven that point, with his own "macaca" moment. Via
Drudge:
Mr. Biden is equally skeptical—albeit in a slightly more backhanded way—about Mr. Obama. "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy," he said.
I wonder how long long it will be before the members of the Congressional Black Caucus, a group Biden apparently considers marginalized, inarticulate, unintelligent, dirty, and ugly, issues a response.
Allah, as he often does, sums it up best:
Biden announces, immediately destroys presidential hopes.
Update: Even Kos agrees.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Oh, the Hysteria!
I'm rapidly losing faith in America's public education system.
I wrote a post yesterday titled The Case For Outing Jamil?, where I asked readers a rather simple rhetorical question:
Should I "out" Jamil Hussein, revealing his real, full, and complete name?
I stated specifically that I was leaning against publishing his name, but wanted to hear readers debate the pros and cons.
Perhaps I shouldn't have been surprised at how so many of the middleweight liberal blogs decided to twist what I actually wrote to make the claim that I was attempting to get Jamil Hussein killed.
A sampling:
Sadly No!
Steve Gilliard
Jesus' General
Pandagon
Please keep in mind that many of the bloggers, and especially their commenters, seem to be afflicted with Tourettes, so if you don't desire to read truly foul language, you might want to skip these links.
There are probably other, more inconsequential liberal blogs feeding off their hysteria, but those links above provide a good cross-sampling of the willful ignorance they've displayed so far.
The delicious irony of all this, is that for their collective hysteria to have any merit whatsoever, then they would have to believe that the Associated Press is dishonest in this post where they claim Jamil Hussein's real name is... drumroll please... Jamil Hussein.
Even if I did theoretically find a compelling reason to release Hussein's real name—and just to remind you, I've said I'm leaning against it—then if the Associated Press account is accurate, then I'm just blowing smoke.
It is a simple "either/or" proposition: He's either actually Jamil Hussein as the Associated Press maintains, or he is who his personnel records say he is, which is definitively not Jamil Hussein.
But it seems that our liberal "friends" want to have their proverbial pie and eat it, too. They want to maintain on one hand that the Associated Press is being honest and truthful with their reporting, but they also want to rant and rave about this evil conservative blog.
They can't logically have both, but since when has logic ever been an impediment for them?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I think that in this case he is better "unouted"; the issue is more useful to our side than the resolution would be. Resolve it, they say "opps", and then find yet another way -- that we don't know at first -- to be on the other side.
Posted by: htom at January 31, 2007 10:16 AM (XK5dj)
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That you absolutely refuse to acknowledge that you are playing with the life of a man says everything that needs to be said, at least about you.
It seems that the majority of your commentators would like you to keep the information to yourself. Not that I think it will matter one bit.
Posted by: Dominion at January 31, 2007 10:17 AM (GDLPF)
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Isn't it ironic that these leftards are more concerned about the life of a terrorist supporting lying AP stringer, then they are about the troops?
They would rather pass non-binding resolutions that mean nothing, but demoralize our boys on the ground, and whine about conservative blogs, than actually working to end the war.
I say that this terrorist promoting propaganda pander has earned the right to have his life held by a string.
How many people have joined the Insurgency because of his lies? How many of our boys have died because of his actions?
Posted by: Sniper One at January 31, 2007 10:37 AM (K/uDH)
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I'm not playing with anyone's life, but if you want to beleive what liberal bloggers say I wrote, versus what I actually wrote, I can't protect you from your own willful ignorance.
Jamil's greatest "threat," if there ever was one, was in the publication of his name...something the Associated Press proudly proclaims it has done dozens of times since April of 2006. Funny how you can chose to overlook that little detail... providing of course, that you actually feel the AP was honest when it said his name was Jamil Hussein.
As for who would be threatening his life... who would that be? It certainly wouldn't come from the Sunnis: his Hurriyah accounts play right into their propaganda playbook. That leave those he apparently libeled in his Hurriyah reporting, the Iraqi security forces.
Want to take a wild guess how I got his real name? It was quite simple: bloggers made a simple information request, which was forwarded to those same Iraqi security forces,
who just happened to have his full personnel records the entire time. They know who he is, know where he lives, and he still works for them. If they wanted him dead, he would be. Instead, they sent him back to work.
So please, save your incoherent rantings. As is typical, they are based on a combination of factual ignorance and your willingness to trust the untrustworthy.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at January 31, 2007 10:41 AM (g5Nba)
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How about this take?
If it's in the "public interest" for the MSM to make known top secret anti-terrorist information, why would the APs' informant be off limits?
I don't care ether way. People will believe what they want anyhow.
Posted by: Kurt P at January 31, 2007 10:52 AM (wWMQq)
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As for who would be threatening his life... who would that be? It certainly wouldn't come from the Sunnis: his Hurriyah accounts play right into their propaganda playbook. That leave those he apparently libeled in his Hurriyah reporting, the Iraqi security forces.
No, it doesn't. There's always the possibility of a private actor. If there weren't, outing people's real identities in the U.S. wouldn't be as big a deal, because there wouldn't be any potential physical threat associated with it. It's not like anyone thinks the U.S. government is going to go after outed bloggers or the like. You may not consider the possibility to be high, but it exists. Why increase the risk at all?
Posted by: LS at January 31, 2007 10:55 AM (n4O5C)
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I have been following the matter closely, and posting my own comments on my blog as well. I thought you raised some interesting points for and against the release of Hussein's true identity. I think I'd side with maintaining the anonymity of the name as I wouldn't want to put the man's safety in danger any more than it already is.
The onus on this whole matter is on AP, not you or the lefty blogs. They're the ones who set this whole matter in motion with the use of sources whose identities were pseudonyms in violation of their stated policies - setting up the Great Jamil Hussein Goose Chase. It's pretty difficult to catch a ghost when you don't even know the ghost's name.
AP has to account for why it continues to stand by the Burning Six story and the other stories sourced to 'Jamil Hussein.' In other instances, where a media outlet has been burned by a source, they would out the source to show them to be a fake or fraud - or opening them up to legal action. That could be the route taken here, but AP doesn't seek to do that either.
Instead, we get a situation where the AP has its cake and is eating it as well. They protect his anonymity while declaring that nothing was wrong, ignoring that the whole thing was an exaggeration and potentially induced by Hussein's loyalties that may lie elsewhere.
It's also a sorry state of affairs when the AP and their supporters attack the messenger and not the assertions made (and sustained by the actual
evidence).
Posted by: lawhawk at January 31, 2007 11:18 AM (a8MXW)
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If he is to be held liable and accountable for his words and actions, let the Iraqi courts handle it. The info you posted on the AP is enough, they are the true bad performers here.
Posted by: Retired Navy at January 31, 2007 12:15 PM (BuYeH)
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I just published what may be my last Jamilgate post. Part 47 of the series. What else is there to say? al-AP got caught in a lie and is never going to fess up. The truth's on the web where it's available to anyone who cares enough to track it own. Don't hold your breath waiting for our lefty friends to admit it.
Posted by: Bill Faith at January 31, 2007 01:39 PM (n7SaI)
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"If it's in the "public interest" for the MSM to make known top secret anti-terrorist information, why would the APs' informant be off limits?" EXACTLY!!!! I believe in this information age if the press deems everything in the public interest I am part of the public and I want to know his name and I want Judith Miller to give up the name of person she warned about the FBI raid at the muslim charity, etc, etc, etc. The MSM cannot have it both ways but we can have it all ways with the new media.
Posted by: Rightmom at January 31, 2007 02:08 PM (0lpqx)
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Bill, I respectfully disagree.
Much like the Sandy Berger story...the Ministry of Media would LIKE for the issue to simply go away.
They wish to keep calling these "unimportant" "minor stories"...because, in point of fact...every time leftists get caught with their hand in the cookie jar, they circle the wagons and adopt the leftist Code of Silence.
I personally have had enough of Green Helmet Guy, Hadj fauxtography, faux-Jam, and all the rest to last a lifetime.
Do NOT get tired of keeping their nefarious journalistic malpractice in the front lines of the blogosphere. It's precisely what they want to happen.
The EXERCISE of brainstorming the pros and cons of making known faux-Jam's REAL name...is a useful one.
It brings to the fore certain elements in the underlying story and the coverup aftermath that need to be addressed.
I don't buy the notion that printing his REAL name...is akin to giving him a date with some amorphous executioner. But, I do fall on the side of not outing him...simply because it would cloud the issues and give ammo to a mendacious crowd that is currently ethically bankrupt. Their credibility account is seriously overdrawn.
For that reason, I would keep the pressure precisely where it is. On the underlying issues which ALL fall on our side of the fence. The truth matters.
The AP, Reuters, BBC, WaPo, NYTimes, Newsweek, ABC, NBC, CBS...all of them...are co-conspirators after the fact...if they continue to play this game of silence when one of the left leaning members gets caught ..yet again...serving up tripe for truth.
Don't get tired ...don't ever get tired, Bill...of being on the side of truth.
Posted by: cfbleachers at January 31, 2007 02:11 PM (V56h2)
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NYT Posts 4Q Loss: $648 Million
(posted over at LGF)
Bill, one more point. The left is losing....sometimes we can't see it, ....and sometimes we can.
Posted by: cfbleachers at January 31, 2007 02:34 PM (V56h2)
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Just for the record;
rhetorical; used for, belonging to, or concerned with mere style or effect.
If you had already decided to "out" Jamil, or if you are incapable of "outing" Jamil, THEN your question would be rhetorical.
Thanks.
Posted by: HappyGrammatician at January 31, 2007 02:53 PM (AMR+E)
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But it seems that our liberal "friends" want to have their proverbial pie and eat it, too. They want to maintain on one hand that the Associated Press is being honest and truthful with their reporting, but they also want to rant and rave about this evil conservative blog.
We don't take any position on whether the AP is being fair and truthful in their reporting. We say that the evidence presented
against the AP in this Jamilgate thing has been wildly speculative, selective, nit-picking, self-fulfilling, often based on word-play and semantics, and reminiscent of an irrational mob waving pitchforks.
If you know Jamil Hussein's real name, contact him and do an interview.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Research Labs at January 31, 2007 03:06 PM (/ZGYc)
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"We don't take any position on whether the AP is being fair and truthful in their reporting."
Ahhh, in leftard world...being disingenuous is a virtue...but maintaining a coherent thought throughout an entire paragraph is a monumental task.
"We refuse to take a position on whether the AP is BEING FAIR AND TRUTHFUL...in printing whisper campaigns and urban legends for the mindless lemmings of the left to gobble up..."
HOWEVER...
"We say that the evidence presented against the AP in this Jamilgate thing has been wildly speculative,"
What a crock. The EVIDENCE is that faux-Jam is not now, nor has he EVER been assigned to ANY of the districts in which he was used as a "source".
The EVIDENCE is that faux-Jam was used as an "ubersource" more than 60 times outside of his district.
The EVIDENCE is that NONE of the mosques were burned to the ground.
The EVIDENCE is that there are NO supporting reports of six immolated Sunni's, civilian homes burned to the ground, 18 murdered civilians including women and children.
None of that EVIDENCE is speculative. But the weak and lame apologies, excuses and alibis are certainly speculative.
"... selective"
How imbecilic can one be. Of course it's "selective", if the term is to mean that the utter failure on the part of the AP and their "ubersource" to report truth instead of tripe...isolates particulars in the story to show the holes. EVERY time we point to fake or staged photos...we pick the ones that show the lies. That's why it's "selective". Reuters fauxtography...it was selective to show the photoshopped ones and Green Helmet Guy it was selective to show the ones that pointed out the "staging" of news. With faux-Jam, the apologists point out the donut, we point out the holes.
"nit-picking"
Yep, that darn truth is so nit-pickable, isn't it? Much better that we mindlessly swallow the tripe for truth. If it carries the "message" that's all that matters.
"self-fulfilling"
The truth just stands there. It doesn't change. It is there to be found. If that fulfills the hypothesis that the AP and their "ubersource" were lying...then so be it. We don't adhere to the "truthiness" doctrine, where the "truth" is only as sustainable as it remains consistent with the "message" that is, of course, king.
"often based on word-play and semantics, and reminiscent of an irrational mob waving pitchforks."
You mean like the meaning of "is" and the "impeach Bush" crowd? By the way, where is Sandy Berger these days?
"If you know Jamil Hussein's real name, contact him and do an interview."
The issue, of course...is that AP knows his real name. And they know that he was not a trustworthy source, he was pushing whisper campaigns and urban legends...and the AP was a willing co-conspirator in foisting those on the public. His name, his stories, their coverup...were all...one big lie.
But then again, you don't take a position on the AP or the truth of the story...so, since you miss the main point and don't take a position on it anyway...see ya. Good riddance.
Posted by: cfbleachers at January 31, 2007 03:32 PM (V56h2)
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Couldn't agree more. But you forgot one possibility. He doesn't really exist. Just like the fire damaged and blown out roof of that mosque prove that those Mosques are a-OK.
Posted by: Marco at January 31, 2007 03:34 PM (NQgjz)
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You know, I've been through this before. You'll be like, "The EVIDENCE says X," and I'll be like, "Okay, so what's the evidence?" And then it'll be some triumphant mish-mash of speculation and discredited factoids, balancing on the definition of a word.
So okay. The AP lied. What's one example that's both provable and significant?
By this I mean an example that can be demonstrated not to be true, and that also has some definable, demonstrable real-world consequence.
Here's an example that satisfies neither of these conditions: The raw AP feed that was visible for 20 minutes, and that never made it into a published news story, which used the word 'destroyed' instead of the words, 'burned and blown up.'
Posted by: Sadly, No! Research Labs at January 31, 2007 03:54 PM (/ZGYc)
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We don't take any position on whether the AP is being fair and truthful in their reporting. We say that the evidence presented against the AP in this Jamilgate thing has been wildly speculative, selective, nit-picking, self-fulfilling, often based on word-play and semantics, and reminiscent of an irrational mob waving pitchforks.
If you know Jamil Hussein's real name, contact him and do an interview.
As is sadly becoming the case, you once again have the particulars of this incident almost completely backwards.
It is not speculative that AP uses a source hiding behind a pseudonym, a local malcontent that has since changed his story, and an al Qaeda-affiliated group as their basis for their reporting.
It is not speculative that the overwhelming majority of Hussein's accounts happened far outside of his jusrisdiction, nor is it speculative that other news organizations have been unable to corroborate this account, or 39 of the other 40 stories we researched via both Google searches and Nexis. If my memory serves me correctly, even the NY Times' Edward Wong attempted to verify the "bruning six claim, and was unable to find any evidence corroborating it.
It is not speculative that there is quite simply zero credible evidence that six Sunnis were burned alive as Jamil Hussein claimed, and the Iraqi Interior, Defense, and Health Ministries concur, as do U.S. forces that were in the area within an hour of the alleged attack.
It is not speculative to say that there is zero evidence to support the AP-published claim that 18 people died in an "inferno" at another mosque. In fact, there is
strong photographic evidence that the mosque in question was never set on fire at all, and the U.S. after action report concurs.
As a matter of fact, were someone to mention
any coverage of the Hurriyah story that would be most accurately characterized as "nit-picking, self-fulfilling, often based on word-play and semantics, and reminiscent of an irrational mob waving pitchforks," it would be Sadly No's own "debunking" of Michelle Malkin and Bryan Preston's visit to Hurriyah, which conveniently and purposefully overlooked any and all evidence that did not agree with your pre-defined storyline.
Or perhaps "irration mob" best describes the shared and purposeful mischaracterization of my previous post, where you, and other liberal bloggers, purposefully left out the fact that I stated specifically that I was leaning against identifying Hussein's real name, in order to accuse me of wanting to murder him.
There is indeed a great deal of dishonesty and uninformed, hate-filled speculation, but those providing the overwhelming majority of it comes from you and like-minded souls who are far more interested in pettiness and miscasting other people's words, than in requiring accountability from the press in a story where they claimed 24 people were horribly murdered, and no credible evidence exists to show that their speculation was true.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at January 31, 2007 04:01 PM (g5Nba)
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So okay. The AP lied. What's one example that's both provable and significant?
As has been mentioned
repeatedly, the AP story claimed that the in al al-Muhaimin mosque, "18 people had died in an inferno." Some inferno. There was no fire
at all, and they were open again for worship services the very next day, as photographic evidence readily attests.
Well, that and the fact Jamil Hussein isn't Jamil Hussein...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at January 31, 2007 04:09 PM (g5Nba)
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That you absolutely refuse to acknowledge that you are playing with the life of a man
AP used him how many times?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at January 31, 2007 04:28 PM (LITKT)
21
Reply interspersed. I'll approach this in manageable stages.
As is sadly becoming the case, you once again have the particulars of this incident almost completely backwards.
It is not speculative that AP uses a source hiding behind a pseudonym, a local malcontent that has since changed his story, and an al Qaeda-affiliated group as their basis for their reporting.
The AP may well be using a pseudonymous source. This could be because of the danger in Baghdad of sectarian death squads, or it could be a fault of the AP's (or Hussein's). However, 'Malcontent' and 'al-Qaeda-affiliated' are not evidentiary statements, but surmises.
As we were discussing before, the fact that official US reports are contradicted by AP stories is not sufficient proof of 'lying' or 'terrorist affiliations.' US reports have often been proven incorrect, and continue to be. One example is the recent kidnapping and murder of several US troops, which was officially reported contrary to the facts.
Even so, no official report exists -- to my knowledge -- that identifies 'Jamil Hussein' as a 'malcontent' or an 'al-Qaeda supporter.' This is, therefore, not evidence.
It is not speculative that the overwhelming majority of Hussein's accounts happened far outside of his jusrisdiction,
Yes. This is interesting and even somewhat suspicious. It makes me wonder -- immediately -- what might be the standard procedure for the Iraqi police inre: the giving of press statements. What is it? Do police in Baghdad use press spokesmen, as many US cities do? What has your research, if any, discovered?
nor is it speculative that other news organizations have been unable to corroborate this account, or 39 of the other 40 stories we researched via both Google searches and Nexis. If my memory serves me correctly, even the NY Times' Edward Wong attempted to verify the "bruning six claim, and was unable to find any evidence corroborating it.
Fair enough. I think it was Tom Zeller, not Edward Wong, but okay. I'll just take this at face-value. The problem here is with an elementary pillar of logic: The absence of evidence is not, prima facie, evidence of absence. That is, the method of
proving something is not the same as the method of
refuting something.
I'll put it a little more plainly. A lack of corroboration on the burning-six story leaves your Jamil/AP/terrorist-supporters hypothesis in play, but doesn't advance it. It merely rules out possibilities. For instance, if six charred corpses were dumped in a ditch somewhere (as is common in Baghdad), but Edward Wong only contacted the local morgue, then we're back to square-one. And we still have nothing evidentiary (I mean nothing) about why the AP story diverges from the official reports.
It is not speculative that there is quite simply zero credible evidence that six Sunnis were burned alive as Jamil Hussein claimed, and the Iraqi Interior, Defense, and Health Ministries concur, as do U.S. forces that were in the area within an hour of the alleged attack.
Last one for now; I'm happy to rejoin later.
Hypothesize if you will that Baghdad is a violent, chaotic place in which 'Jamil Hussein' is a press representative of an extremely busy, vulnerable, and overstressed police force that deals with dozens of murders a day, including murders of police officers. He gets a call saying that six people were burned alive, and relates this to the AP.
In other words, what's the core piece of evidence that proves that this claim -- true or false -- was made maliciously?
Posted by: Sadly, No! Research Labs at January 31, 2007 04:54 PM (/ZGYc)
22
Where was all this angst, this sanctimonious hand-wringing and wailing and breast beating...when the AP declared via Steven Hurst...that Jamil Hussein was his actual name?
If the leftards believe their own BS...why weren't they wrapping themselves in this cloak of faux concern for Jamil...when the AP was "outing" him...for the whole world?
Steven Hurst made a HUGE display of the fact that "Jamil Hussein" was his real name...and that he had been a source for more than two years.
This wasn't a DISCUSSION about "outing" him...because if the leftards believe their own BS...they would be all over the AP for "outing" the guy and setting him up to be instantly murdered.
Where were they when one of their fellow traveling leftists was "outing" "Jamil"?
Nowhere. Silence. Crickets chirping.
Know why? Because they don't believe their own BS. There's no angst over a fellow leftist "outing" someone. (be he gay, or a phony source for phony stories with a leftist "message")
When it comes to light that the "ubersource" indeed was NOT named "Jamil Hussein"...the AP clams up, Steven Hurst issues no retraction, the leftists disappear from sight and don't crop up again there's a discussion of whether it would be appropriate to even discuss the subject of using his real name.
Then, and ONLY then...do we see this drama queen screen test by the left. "I'm ready for my blog test, Mr. DeMille".
As far as I'm concerned the facts are indisputable. There is NO "Jamil Hussein", there is only a guy PLAYING "Jamil".
The mosques were NOT destroyed, burned to the ground, in fact...there wasn't even enough damage to ANY of the four mentioned (which the AP conveniently reduced to ONE in follow up stories) to disrupt even a single service.
NO persons were doused in kerosene, NO persons were immolated, NO persons were then summarily executed while they writhed on the ground in flames, NO persons were taken to a hospital morgue in an immolated condition, NO persons were taken to the cemetery in that immolated condition.
NO civilian homes were burned to the ground, NO women and children were murdered in that spree, and the "police captain" outside of the district in which this DIDN'T take place had NO knowledge to the contrary.
If someone has proof otherwise...they sure aren't bringing it forward. The police captain...as an "ubersource" is a fraud. The stories that he "sources" are nothing more than urban legends and whisper campaigns.
Don't come back to me with any other tripe for truth, unless you have FACTS to dispute. Otherwise, keep the apologista BS for the lemmings who want to swallow the Kool-Aid. I'm not interested in substituting tripe for truth.
Posted by: cfbleachers at January 31, 2007 05:16 PM (V56h2)
23
As has been mentioned repeatedly, the AP story claimed that the in al al-Muhaimin mosque, "18 people had died in an inferno." Some inferno. There was no fire at all, and they were open again for worship services the very next day, as photographic evidence readily attests.
Fair point. This is one of the mosques that Malkin and Preston didn't visit. There's a time-stamped photo showing worshippers in the al Muhaymin mosque on Nov. 25th, and another showing RPG damage to the exterior of the mosque.
Significantly, however, this was not one of the stories attributed to Jamil Hussein.
link
And the Association of Muslim Scholars, the most influential Sunni organization in Iraq, said even more victims were burned to death in attacks on the four mosques. It claimed a total of 18 people had died in an inferno at the al-Muhaimin mosque.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Research Labs at January 31, 2007 05:23 PM (/ZGYc)
24
Where was all this angst, this sanctimonious hand-wringing and wailing and breast beating...when the AP declared via Steven Hurst...that Jamil Hussein was his actual name?
It was nonexistent, because Hurst is in direct contact with Hussein and is apparently halfway sane. As such, he would never in a million years 'out' an Iraqi police source unwillingly, especially under pressure from a bunch of blogs -- because
no source or journalist in Iraq would ever trust or hire him again.
I mean come on here.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Research Labs at January 31, 2007 05:36 PM (/ZGYc)
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So, Sadly, it's OK for AP to lie in its reporting because if they don't one of their reporters might not get any more juicy lies.
Glad you cleared that up.
Posted by: Tully at January 31, 2007 06:06 PM (kEQ90)
26
'al-Qaeda-affiliated group' is the group of muslim scholors and it was not a right wing blog that called them al-Qaeda affiliated.
Um, correct me if I am wrong, but the Iraqi's have an official list of qualified/authorized spokesmen and Jamil XX is not on it.
That would mean he is an unqualified/unathorized spokesman would it not?
The AP may well be using a pseudonymous source.
Then they lied. If you say you will never do X without saying so first, then turn around and do X without telling anyone and in fact repeatedly deny that it is a pseudonym, you are lying. If you want people to believe you, you don't do something you say you will not ever do.
...the fact that official US reports are contradicted by AP stories is not sufficient proof of 'lying' or 'terrorist affiliations.'
...
Even so, no official report exists -- to my knowledge -- that identifies 'Jamil Hussein' as a 'malcontent' or an 'al-Qaeda supporter.' This is, therefore, not evidence.
Considering that 'Jamil Hussein' is not even his real name then NO REPORT WILL EXIST saying that. Especially since you are misreading what was said,
'al Qaeda-affiliated group' was not referring to Jamil Hussein.
I also find it strange that you dismiss official reports as being potentially incorrect but then turn around and ask for official reports saying something else as proof you need (and that proof would be impossible to obtain if the name is fake).
In other words, what's the core piece of evidence that proves that this claim -- true or false -- was made maliciously?
A person who is not authorized to talk officially to the press, gives out 39 unsupported accounts that cannot be confirmed by anyone... not even 'Jamil Hussein' because Jamil XX says he is not that person who gave all the information.
Lets see, no proof anything remotely resembleing the orginal claims of this or the other 38 accounts happened. The only proof the AP has is the unsupported word of an unknown person. Could be each and every one of the 39 unsupported accounts were all honest mistakes from an unauthorized person using a fake name was in fear of his job or a stringer with an agenda that made sure his butt was covered if any of the 39 stories were eventually proved as false.
So if Jamil made 39 innocent mistakes and innocently regurgitated everything that insurgent propaganda has said and the AP published all of them without verified supporting evidence... that no other paper or news group reported, then that means the AP's reporting guidelines are at fault or just not being followed. Like the part of their guidelines that say they wont use a pseudonym without saying so.
Any way you slice it, someone was not doing their job properly. Accounts 1 thru 5 may have been innocent, past that it turns into incompetence or downright maliciousness.
Most would expect an institution that prides itself on trustworthyness would act to find out if a problem does exist and if so where it came from. Changing the story to one that no longer fits the discredited aspects does not fall into that catagory.
Posted by: Gunstar1 at January 31, 2007 06:23 PM (zh8i1)
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This is like arguing with people who claim the Apollo missions were staged.
Ok, so if his name isn't Jamil Hussein, and CY hasn't revealed what he thinks his name is, then how do you know he isn't on the list of official sources?
I'm not saying he is or isn't; I'm asking how you know.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Research Labs at January 31, 2007 06:37 PM (/ZGYc)
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Ok, maybe if we take this more slowly.
The AP says that they would never use a pseudonym or composite source.
Jamil Hussein is the name they give several dozen times as the "source" for the "reports on the ground" that they are passing off as "news".
NOT ONCE did they detail...or even suggest, that Jamil Hussein was anything other than a reliable source for the "facts" that they were reporting.
We come to find that "Police Captain Jamil Hussein" doesn't exist, but some guy named JGXX exists.
We also find that JGXX doesn't work in the district of a SINGLE story, for which he is the "source".
We are told by authorities over there, that he is not an official police spokesman. He doesn't have any PERSONAL knowledge of facts outside his district. He doesn't have access to CENTCOM information, because he doesn't have clearance.
The story he tells of a gruesome mass murder, including lighting six innocents on fire, dousing them with kerosene, blowing up and destroying four mosques, rampaging through civilian homes and burning them, killing women and children...is all completely, utterly, wholly discredited.
And your answer is...the guy is a fake, his name is a fake, he doesn't have personal knowledge of any facts, the mosques aren't burned to the ground, they aren't even VANDALIZED enough to disrupt services, no houses are burned, no women and children are murdered...and this is a "fog of war" issue?
Is that REALLY the argument you wish to stand on?
AP reporter: JGXX we have heard of a story about four mosques being blown up and destroyed, burned to the ground and six men pulled out doused in kerosene and burned to near death, then summarily shot in the head, do you know anything about this?
JGXX "Sounds good to me"
AP reporter: "Can we quote you on that?"
JGXX "Where did it take place, anywhere around here?"
AP reporter: "Nah, it was in Hurriya, I think."
JGXX "Yeah, sure. Just don't use my name".
AP reporter: "Police captain, Jamil Hussein confirmed reports of 18 women and children, four mosques, six Sunni's........"
Apologists: Well, maybe none of the facts are actually TRUE...but, they have that sort of "hot sourciness" we like to liberally spread on our phony stories...and, you know, it's like sort of ...you know...a caricature of a broader truth, man."
Journalistic ethics...oxymoron of the year.
Posted by: cfbleachers at January 31, 2007 07:19 PM (V56h2)
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Ok, maybe if we take this more slowly.
I'm trying, believe me.
Malkin got all mad at us about the mosque thing. In fact, I don't remember her ever replying to a critic in such a way. Let's revisit that point for a moment.
See, official US reports said that one mosque had been firebombed, while our Mr. Hussein claimed otherwise, saying four had been 'burned' and 'blown up.'
I'm not counting the AP raw feed that existed for 20 minutes and was never published, btw, in which the term was 'destroyed.' There exists a language barrier between Iraqis and Americans, for one thing.
Everyone called our Mr. Hussein him a liar, impugned his motives, etc.
So Malkin and Bryan Preston go to one of these other mosques and find that it's been firebombed and raked with gunfire, and that there's a huge hole blown in the dome. This is somehow spun as 'confirmation' of the entirely different story that they'd been telling.
This ought to have been the WTF! moment, when you guys started looking a bit deeper into the assumptions made in this case. But I see the same assumptions coming up again and again as 'proven facts.'
Do you see where I'm coming from here?
Posted by: Sadly, No! Research Labs at January 31, 2007 07:46 PM (/ZGYc)
30
Maybe if we take it even more slowly:
1) The AP says that they would never use a pseudonym or composite source.
2) Jamil Hussein is the name they give several dozen times as the "source" for the "reports on the ground" that they are passing off as "news".
3) NOT ONCE did they detail...or even suggest, that Jamil Hussein was anything other than a reliable source for the "facts" that they were reporting.
4) We come to find that "Police Captain Jamil Hussein" doesn't exist, but some guy named JGXX exists.
(therefore....the AP is in a pickle...either Jamil Hussein is his name, or it isn't. IF, it isn't...what's the explanation...in light of the original statement by the AP AND their follow up statements? Aren't you even the least bit curious about why they continue to press the issue that they don't use pseudonyms? Why not just say that in the original story? Isn't that question even remotely on your radar screen? What about the follow up statement? You know...the one that leftists jumped up and down on their mattresses and screaming "gotcha" on? You know...Jamil Hussein is his REAL name...that one? Doesn't it make you the least bit sheepish for all those "nyah, nyahs" that turned out to be made complete fools by the AP getting caught not once, but TWICE in the same lie?)
5) We also find that JGXX doesn't work in the district of a SINGLE story, for which he is the "source".
(doesn't this of its own odd circumstance, raise an eyebrow on the leftist side of the fence? How is he a "source"...outside his district? Have we ever been told? How does he know "facts on the ground" which he "verifies"...if he's not even in the area and is not an official spokesman? Have we ever been told? The absence of SUPPORT for "sourcing" a story...is, in fact...and absence of evidence and credibility. How he knows what he is "sourcing" is vital to his credibility. His credibility is in question, because his STORY is not backed up by known facts. These are all legitimate issues. All skirted by the AP and avoided by the rest of the left leaning media...in their code of silence.)
6) We are told by authorities over there, that he is not an official police spokesman.
(if you have different information, bring it forward, otherwise...I'll believe this, since the AP has not suggested otherwise...in fact, they suggested he would be ARRESTED for giving out false information...he wasn't, but they must have believed he would be...BECAUSE he didn't have clearance to speak. DEDUCTIVE logic is not out of bounds, btw.)
7) He doesn't have any PERSONAL knowledge of facts outside his district.
(if he does, please bring it forward how he does. I assume he is assigned to work his own district, any information he gets outside his district comes from sub-sources. That was never detailed in ANY of the reports using him as a "source". If, as logic indicates...he had no personal knowledge...then his stories that he is vouching for and "sourcing" are really simply composite "sources" for whom he is the mouthpiece. If you have other information, pleasr bring it forward.)
He doesn't have access to CENTCOM information, because he doesn't have clearance.
(they said this, but if you have information otherwise, please bring it forward.)
9) The story he tells of a gruesome mass murder, including lighting six innocents on fire, dousing them with kerosene, blowing up and destroying four mosques, rampaging through civilian homes and burning them, killing women and children...is all completely, utterly, wholly discredited.
(a couple of mosques were vandalized...the rest of the story is a whisper campaign and urban legend. Is it ok with you...that the story is embellished to a point of being unrecognizable...and them passed off as "sourced and verified" news? How was it "sourced and verified"...if the very tenets of ALL of its import...are all false? The vandalized mosque story.... vs..... six kerosene soaked, burned alive, shot in the head while women and children are being murdered and burned out of house and home...hmmm, which story is more likely to grab attention????
And the FOLLOW UP...is to stand by a phony source and a phony story????? And the excuse is...."fog of war". Puhleeeeezzze. This doesn't pass the smell test.
Posted by: cfbleachers at January 31, 2007 08:16 PM (V56h2)
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For SNRL: Why are people so willing to believe an apparently unprovable story about Iraqis being burned and the "inferno," but not even consider that the story might be a total fabrication--regardless of the fact that it happens to be conservatives that did the digging? If it's a news story that's entirely sourced from someone "on the street" in a war zone, can you really be so sure it's objective and/or true?
Honestly, it doesn't seem to have struck anyone as an important story in the greater context. There's enough verifiably bad stuff going on in Iraq (as well as in the media) that the 'burning six' incident, true or not, doesn't seem to make much difference either way. We're talking about a city in which a slow week has sectarian death squads killing a few dozen people.
I don't think you'd find anyone who'd say that the AP has done a flawless job in Iraq, not to mention in its domestic electoral coverage. But there's a real point of contention in the idea that the AP getting X or Y details wrong in a minor story on sectarian violence in Baghdad means that there's no wave of sectarian violence going on in Baghdad -- that it's somehow invented or grossly exaggerated by the media in order to manipulate the American public.
That's what I see as the 'purpose' of the Hussein/AP controversy -- to cast doubt on the veracity of any reporting from Iraq that doesn't fit a certain narrative. The specific details of X AP piece from November-whatever aren't necessarily that compelling out of context, if you know what I mean.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Research Labs at January 31, 2007 11:23 PM (0+YPU)
32
>blockquote>Maybe if we take it even more slowly:
1) The AP says that they would never use a pseudonym or composite source.
Ok, let's start there. What did they say about this, and when/where did they say it?
Posted by: Sadly, No! Research Labs at January 31, 2007 11:27 PM (0+YPU)
33
FABRICATIONS:
"Nothing in our news report – words, photos, graphics, sound or video – may be fabricated. We don't use pseudonyms, composite characters or fictional names, ages, places or dates. We don't stage or re-enact events for the camera or microphone, ..."
Posted by: cfbleachers at February 01, 2007 03:26 AM (5RM9g)
34
"Honestly, it doesn't seem to have struck anyone as an important story in the greater context. There's enough verifiably bad stuff going on in Iraq (as well as in the media) that the 'burning six' incident, true or not, doesn't seem to make much difference either way."
Therein lies the whole of the problem. The fact that the AP could violate nearly every journalistic ethical rule without as much as a sideways glance, because the "message" is consistent with the worldview that leftists wish to advance...is repugnant to virtually every objective observer.
IF, you conclude as I do, that the AP willingly and wilfully foisted intentionally exaggerated and sometimes wholly untrue stories upon the reading public, then intentionally covered up the use of pseudonyms, composite characters and unreliable sources when a correction or retraction was due...then their entire credibility is at stake.
To suggest that this story was "minor" is a crock. The fact that there is sectarian violence is Iraq is one thing. To suggest that it is a "minor" story when six men are alleged to have been pulled out of a place of worship, doused in kerosene, lit on fire, allowed to burn in agony and then were summarily executed...is NOT in any way, shape or form..."just more of the same".
The story was gripping...and IF, you conclude, as I do...that the story was an urban legend, a whisper campaign...then the SOURCE for that story comes under greater scrutiny for bias.
The fact that the AP and their apologists are twisting themselves into pretzels to try ANY way to deflect criticism on this "source", makes me want to dig even deeper.
It is a NATURAL consequence to begin to ask how this police captain came to know, what he alleges he "knew". It is a NATURAL consequence to this ongoing story to begin to question how he would know facts outside his district. The apologists "don't look here" attitude STOKES the flames of the curious, it doesn't put them out.
"But there's a real point of contention in the idea that the AP getting X or Y details wrong in a minor story on sectarian violence in Baghdad means that there's no wave of sectarian violence going on in Baghdad -- that it's somehow invented or grossly exaggerated by the media in order to manipulate the American public."
This is a canard. NOBODY has said that there is NO sectarian violence in Baghdad. But if there is a constant drumbeat of negativity that tells HALF a story, if it is ALWAYS pointed in the direction of the "message" that Iraq is "lost", if it IS "grossly exaggerated" or if whisper campaigns and urban legends are being passed off as news...then this is consistent with the PATTERN established with Green Helmet Guy and Reuters' fauxtography...that gross exaggerations, false details, staged events, phony sources, faked pictures...will be used with complicity to paint the picture consistent with the "message".
The truth doesn't matter...only the "message" matters. If that's your position...then fine, you are entitled to it. If you think this pattern is merely a "minor" breach of ethics, then in my opinion...you don't have enough ethics to make that call.
"That's what I see as the 'purpose' of the Hussein/AP controversy -- to cast doubt on the veracity of any reporting from Iraq that doesn't fit a certain narrative."
Quite the contrary. The purpose of Green Helmet Guy being exposed, fauxtography being exposed, the phony sourcing of the fake "Jamil" being exposed...is to say that wilfully breaching journalistic ethics inor order to FIT A CERTAIN NARRATIVE...is unacceptable.
The "story" isn't minor....and the continuing wilful breaching of journalistic ethics isn't minor. The truth matters.
" The specific details of X AP piece from November-whatever aren't necessarily that compelling out of context, if you know what I mean"
The specific details of Green Helmet Guy...if nefariously taken out of context and placed in the "larger scheme of things"...isn't that compelling either. And the Hadj phony photos are really not all that compelling, when taken out of context and isolated either.
Of course, the point of taking them out of context is to make them not "compelling". The BREACH of journalistic ethics IS compelling. The intentional telling of false stories, greatly exaggerated half-truths, intentionally misleading the reading public...IS compelling. And the PATTERN that has developed in the Mideast...and with Rathergate...and continues unabated...is that leftist leaning media members will lie, cheat, steal, exaggerate, intentionally mislead...until they get caught...and then the apologists will circle the wagons and say none of this is a big deal...and the rest of the Ministry of Media will adopt a code of silence and sit on their hands.
The truth matters. Journalistic ethics matters. And if neither of them matter to you...then I suggest you take a long look at what you have become. All to protect a dogma and ideology...that allows a guy like William Arkin to be your bedfellow.
Posted by: cfbleachers at February 01, 2007 03:51 AM (5RM9g)
35
Therein lies the whole of the problem. The fact that the AP could violate nearly every journalistic ethical rule without as much as a sideways glance, because the "message" is consistent with the worldview that leftists wish to advance...is repugnant to virtually every objective observer.
Yeah, but your response really doesn't touch on any of the substantive points I made.
We're a bit down on the page at this point, so I'll stop back some other time.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Research Labs at February 01, 2007 10:40 PM (hurx6)
36
We are told that we cannot simply accept the word of the government as true -- why should we simply trust the AP?
We are also told that leaking secret information is patriotic, even if it might lead to the death of soldiers -- wouldn't it be equally true that leaking this identity is patriotic, even if it gets this proven liar killed?
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at February 01, 2007 11:08 PM (rwVGN)
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January 30, 2007
Keeping Enemies Close
When a CBS News reporter Lara Logan uses an al Qaeda propoganda film as part of her story, and refuses to identify it as such, do you begin to wonder just how credible and trustworthy of a journalist she is?
I do.
Update: Comments back open (mu.nu was under huge influx of comment spam last night, so I instituted a manual shutdown). I'd direct new visitors to read the comment policy before posting.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Post contains 79 words, total size 1 kb.
1
Just keeping it truthy.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at January 30, 2007 07:31 PM (LITKT)
2
Wrong again,
"I asked CBS News Vice President Paul Friedman about the video.
"I can assure you this was not from Al-Qaeda," said Friedman, who declined to identify the source. "Whenever we can identify the source of information or video, we want to do that," he added. "There are some rare cases when we have to protect the source. In this case, we needed to do so, because itÂ’s literally a matter of life and death."
"The fact that same video shows up in more than one place is something that happens every day," said CBS News spokeswoman Sandra Genelius. "We occasionally use video from an Al-Qaeda Web site and we identify it. In this case, we didn't get it from Al-Qaeda, so we didn't identify it as such."
Posted by: Sonic at January 30, 2007 09:18 PM (r1k0Y)
3
Sonic, you just don't learn, do you?
SITE Institute, video posted on
Jan. 11.
She's only a week late. You'd think that you'd have enough sense not to accept what you hear from the home of "fake, but accurate," but alas, that does not appear to be the case.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at January 30, 2007 09:36 PM (HcgFD)
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What you have there CY is a total denial that this tape was sourced by CBS from AQ.
I don't know how technical you are, but in these modern days video can be, what we scientists call, "copied"
That's right, more that one "copy" can exist. Indeed someone could be the source of the "copy" for both CBS and AQ without being AQ themselves. Which is what Mr Friedman has just told you.
I have a feeling this is going to be the shortest "blogstorm" in history
Posted by: Sonic at January 30, 2007 09:49 PM (r1k0Y)
5
Sonic let me type this very slowly, so that you can understand: This video footage was produced by the media arm of Al-Qaeda’s Islamic State of Iraq, called the Al-Furqan Institute for Media Productions. the name of this al Qaeda film is ‘Some of the Casualties of the Heretics in Haifa Street After Sunday’s Fighting, January 7, 2007, in Baghdad.’
source
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at January 30, 2007 10:05 PM (HcgFD)
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"This video footage was produced"
You have absolutely no evidence of that, not a scrap. It could have been "produced" by anyone with a mobile phone.
Even your "source" does not claim it was produced by AQ they say "first
released by Al-Qaeda!" a very different thing. They got their copy out first is all that proves.
Don't give up the day job mate.
Posted by: Sonic at January 30, 2007 10:08 PM (r1k0Y)
7
You are quite desperate to be relevant, are you? So, in your little world, a cluster of amatuer cellphone videographers were clustered in the exact same location and then dissiminated it to difference outlets? Or perhaps the person with the videophone just happens ot have a lurative jihadi video distribution business.
Try Occam. AO released it through their media arms, because these media arms:
a): are great at charades.
b): shoot, edit, produce and distribute propoganda
c): aren't real good at shooting guns.
I have a feeling we'll have an answer here fairly soon... providing CBS learned something from their last episode faking the news.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at January 30, 2007 10:22 PM (HcgFD)
8
So we have went from "I have the evidence" to Occams famous razor.
You seem not to grasp that the video could have been shot by anyone on Haifa street and then used by AQ as well as CBS.
We have the word of a respected reporter and the head of CBS news against speculation by a bunch of bloggers.
No contest I'm afraid mate, no contest at all.
Posted by: Sonic at January 30, 2007 10:35 PM (r1k0Y)
9
We have the word of a respected reporter and the head of CBS news against speculation by a bunch of bloggers.
Folks, remember: we're laughing
with him, not
at him.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at January 30, 2007 10:52 PM (HcgFD)
10
There was a time not too long ago that Jayson Blair was a respected reporter, and Howell Raines was a respected editor at the NYT. There are too many people who still believe that the MSM tells the absolute fact-checked truth, with no regard for political bias...hah! Bloggers serve an essential purpose by outing falsehoods.
Posted by: Tom TB at January 31, 2007 08:45 AM (0Co69)
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The Case for Outing Jamil?
I'm presenting working on what will likely be my last post on the Jamil Hussein/Hurriyah mosque attacks debacle. I've got some emails out to several sources and the AP itself attempting to tie up loose ends, and I won't write a final draft until those addressed have a reasonable amount of time to respond.
I did, however, have one question I addressed to all of those I queried, that I'd like to ask my readers as well:
Should I "out" Jamil, revealing his real, full, and complete name?
I'm generally quite opposed to the concept of outing. Interestingly enough, this is the entennial of outing as practiced by the leftist press. It is typically used typically to attack politicians for their sexual preferences, but occasionally to hurt celebrities as well. According the Wikipedia entry on outing linked above:
Gabriel Rotello, once editor of OutWeek, called outing "equalizing"...
If outing is an acceptable method of equalizing the gay and the straight, can't it also be applied to "equalize" claims made by the honest and dishonest?
A key contention made by "Jamil Hussein" and never retracted by either Hussein or the Associated Press is that Iraqi Army units were aware of the attacks on November 24, and stood by and did nothing.
According to an AP story printed in the Jerusalem Post on the day of the attack, Hussein claimed:
Revenge-seeking Shi'ite militiamen grabbed six Sunnis as they left Friday worship services, doused them with kerosene and burned them alive near an Iraqi army post. The soldiers did not intervene, police Capt. Jamil Hussein said.
Further down in the same article:
The Shi'ite-dominated police and Iraqi military in the area stood by, both residents and Hussein said.
Of course, AP never identifies these anonymous residents, nor does it mention that other anonymous area residents disputed these accounts, so with the anonymous residents canceling each other out, we're back to Jamil, once again.
In another, more detailed account, Hussein's statement attacking the Iraqi military are replayed:
Iraqi soldiers at a nearby army post failed to intervene in Friday's assault by suspected members of the Shiite Mahdi Army militia or subsequent attacks that killed at least 19 other Sunnis, including women and children, in the same neighborhood, the volatile Hurriyah district in northwest Baghdad, said police Capt. Jamil Hussein.
letÂ’s overlook for a moment the fact that not a single soul died, and look at Jamil's claim about the IA "failing to intervene."
Interestingly enough, official accounts from the U.S. Army's Dagger Brigade and the 1/1/6 unit of the Iraqi Army indicate that IA soldiers were on a scheduled patrol in Hurriyah early in the morning, received word of the attacks late in the morning, and were on-scene within the hour and started securing the area. The exchanged fire with the militiamen in the vicinity of Nidaa Allah mosque, and drove them from the neighborhood.
Jamil's story does not match up with what American and Iraqi forces reported.
So...
Do you trust the single policeman hiding behind a pseudonym who lied to his superiors about his involvement with the AP, and who lied about other key elements of this story? Or is it much more likely that the dozens of involved American and Iraqi soldiers, policemen, and fire department personnel are telling the truth?
As someone involved with the story noted this morning, while playing devil's advocate:
Jamil is a proven bad source whose stories do seem designed to help the Sunnis and the insurgents at the expense of the Iraqi Army. That part in the original AP Hurriyah story about the IA doing nothing about the attacks is blatantly wrong and apparently an intentional smear. The unit that responded, which included an IA general, did what it was supposed to do according to the official report--it helped with the fire and it tried to catch the attackers. It is fair game to out sources who lie like that.
So should Jamil be outed, and why or why not? I'm leaning towards not, but would like to hear arguments either way.
Update: Comments back open (mu.nu was under huge influx of comment spam last night, so I instituted a manual shutdown). I'd direct new visitors to read the comment policy before posting.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
Say Jamil Whoverheis gets waxed a day or two after he's been outed.
A day or two later they find the person that pulled the trigger and he leads them down a trail that shows he learned Jamil Whoverheis' real name from here.
Would that make you legally liable?
Say they're trying to off Jamil Whoverheis and they pop the wrong person with the same name.
The final question. How certain are you that the name you have is the right person? The names have shifted countless times. Unless you heard it directly from Jamil himself I'd take caution with it. Then even if I'd heard if from him I'd be doubtful.
Any way you go about it there are lots of risks and innocent lives may be at stake.
Posted by: phin at January 30, 2007 01:25 PM (vtIVm)
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There's a potential downside to outing him. What purpose would it serve? About the best result I can imagine, and it's a stretch, would be that the outing itself becomes a subject of controversy, drawing attention once again to the overall issue, but at potentially significant cost to you and by extension to your allies. Is there some other justification you can think of?
Apparently, he's a bad actor. Apparently, his superiors and others already know who he is. I acknowledge that there could be a lot more to the story, however - more than we'll ever know or understand. Anyway, if you've been able to find out his real name, then I suspect it's also already known or available to anyone who has a significantly good or bad use for it.
Again, what purpose would outing him serve?
Posted by: Colin at January 30, 2007 02:01 PM (muz9j)
3
I don't agree with any of phin's reasoning above. At all.
But, here's how I come to the conclusion I would reach on the topic.
1)Do I believe that based on information that the AP has provided about their "ubersource" to date, would provide enough clues for that "lurking assassin" who wants to off "Jamil"?
Let's look at it. He was a police captain. How many of those are there? He previously worked in one district, now is assigned to another. Both named. His first name is Jamil. If we use simple logic...we now have to ask ...how many police captains, named Jamil, who previously worked in one district and now work in another...are there? I suspect the answer is....one.
Are we to assume that anyone who was already motivated to attack him, would have great difficulty in pinpointing him? My suspicion is that they already know who he is.
His real name adds nothing to the story, except the finality that the AP has been engaged in a coverup, that they have knowingly lied about who he was, about him using his real name, (and of course, it further brings into question the issues about the way he came by his knowledge, about the underlying stories they printed with his "ubersourcing" and their failure to retract or correct the record on all the false "facts" they have printed while using our "ubersource")
By "outing" his name...it blinds the real issues. It certainly turns up the heat, but sheds very little light on the subject. Any objective observer (please automatically remove every leftist from the remainder of this thought)can see clearly what issues remain, without the use of his real name.
Once the debate devolves into whether or not his real name should have been made public and whether or not he should have been "outed"...the whole spotlight shifts into an arena where the "truthiness" crowd can reframe the entire issue, deflect the light that is shining on them and has them scurrying back under the baseboards.
Why give them that ammunition? Those of us, for whom the truth matters...own the high road here. Let's hold it. The truth matters...and the road getting to it...matters as well.
Posted by: cfbleachers at January 30, 2007 02:15 PM (V56h2)
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As long as there's any chance whatsoever that AP simply made up a name that by pure coincidence bore a similarity to a real person, I wouldn't.
According to Haider Ajina (in his 40s, Iraq immigrant ~20 years ago, still has family there, proud US citizen, emails me sometimes but I'm quoting Gateway Pundit here) Iraqi boys named Jamil are almost as common as American boys named Sue. I figure it's 99.9% likely if AP was quoting Jamil Someone you have the right Jamil. But... what if some reporter made the name up thinking it would be like quoting "Mr. Susan Owens" and scored accidentally?
I excerpted and linked. That's Part 46 in my Jamilgate series.
Posted by: Bill Faith at January 30, 2007 02:15 PM (n7SaI)
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I would say not to out him if what he were reporting were factually true, or even if there were a chance that he potentially had good cause the stories to be true. In that sense he really is just providing information and is not "involved".
However, if he reports stories that are patently false, then he is not reporting on events, he is trying to shape the events. He is not an observer, he is a participant, and all participants in this struggle need to be named.
Out his azz!
Posted by: bcismar at January 30, 2007 02:31 PM (dRHLs)
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Changing names to protect the innocent is fine. Changing names to protect the guilty is less fine.
If he gets whacked, that just too bad.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at January 30, 2007 02:49 PM (LITKT)
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Put me down for a "No" vote. It adds nothing to the story, and precious little to the facts. We already know what his name
isn't, and that's the relevant part.
The other thing that's been notable to me from all the Jamil-sourced stories I've read is the lack of direct quotations. We see the same thing in Hurst's "He Exists!" self-affirmation story--the spokeperson is siad to have "acknowledged" this or that, but is never directly quoted as having said so.
Given the doubt that Jamil actually said what has been attributed to him, and may just have danced around vaguely while being peppered with "Have you quit beating your wife?" style questions meant to frame him into a box that supported the reporter's "preferred narrative," I say give the outing a miss. Jamil "Hussein" may be just as much a victim of AP and their reporters as WE are. We don't
know, so give him the benefit of the doubt.
Posted by: Tully at January 30, 2007 03:13 PM (kEQ90)
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...Jamil "Hussein" may be just as much a victim of AP and their reporters as WE are. We don't know, so give him the benefit of the doubt.
I can state categorically that Jamil Hussein is no victim... he is-or was-a quite willing contributor to AP's story.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at January 30, 2007 03:25 PM (g5Nba)
Posted by: Righteous Bubba at January 30, 2007 04:06 PM (5SwAu)
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How do you out someone who doesn't exist?
Posted by: Sarcastro at January 30, 2007 04:35 PM (Yg0rt)
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No to outing to the public, in the interest of your reputation. If he died after the outing for any reason, you'd be blamed by the crazies. Outing him to journalists/bloggers in the field who want to interview him is another story. I say do that.
Posted by: Kevin at January 30, 2007 04:39 PM (H826O)
Posted by: Kevin at January 30, 2007 04:40 PM (H826O)
13
Would you publish Malkin's home address if one of her books was total dissembling garbage?
Food for thought.
Actually, that is less "food for thought" than mental diarrhea, and is not even remotely an analogous comparison.
Those of you who posted Michelle's name were hoping to cause harm to her family, which is reprehensible. By comparison, the Iraqi Army and Police, along with the American forces which are Jamil's only "true threats," are already quite aware of his real name, as they gave it to me through official channels on January 8. If they wants to do something to him, they would have, or could still, regardless of what I might say.
Naming Jamil would do little more than erode AP's credability on this story a bit more, and that is already at a low ebb.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at January 30, 2007 04:43 PM (g5Nba)
14
I can state categorically that Jamil Hussein is no victim... he is-or was-a quite willing contributor to AP's story.
I'll take your word for it, but it doesn't change my answer. Outing him by real name doesn't change any of the essentials. We already know he's not "Jamil Hussein." We already know that AP lied when they called him that, using a psuedonym in violation of their own posted "standards" (sorry, I gotta put the cynicism quote marks there)
several dozen times. We already know that they lied to us when they "stood behind" their story. And so on.
Taking his "guilt" as a given, is it "fair game" to out him? Sure! He's news. He
made himself news, so there's no "expectation of privacy" involved. Yes, it would undercut AP's credibility (if at all possible to do any better than the fine job they've done on themselves) to force them to admit Jamil Hussein is not even remotely named Hussein.
I don't believe that it's at all unethical to out him, I just don't know that I would. If he were outed and subsequently iced, the chatterheads would use that as justification for lying in the first place--even if he were shot by his wife for fooling around.
Posted by: Tully at January 30, 2007 05:29 PM (kEQ90)
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Those of you who posted Michelle's name were hoping to cause harm to her family, which is reprehensible. By comparison, the Iraqi Army and Police, along with the American forces which are Jamil's only "true threats," are already quite aware of his real name, as they gave it to me through official channels on January 8.
In fact, someone did attempt to post Michelle Malkin's address and phone number in our comments. We immediately removed the information and banned the person.
As for the rest of this statement, Baghdad has, as you know, active Shiite death squads. If you choose to broadcast the name of a prominent anti-Shiite media source -- whatever your shoddy, speculative research says about his veracity -- you're responsible for what happens to this man and his family.
Not somebody else, not 'liberals,' not the AP, not that guy over there or Hillary Clinton or 'the left,' but you.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Research Labs at January 30, 2007 05:41 PM (/ZGYc)
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Hmm....let's see. Outing him would most assuredly get you more traffic on this site and, on top of that, it would most assuredly get him killed and his family, too. GO FOR IT!!!
Posted by: FOM at January 30, 2007 06:05 PM (SLFj+)
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He said something that may have undermined support for the war?
So you are going to do your damndest to get him killed (and probably his family killed too)
Nice
Say one of us found out your schedule when you were in Iraq and posted it on a website, would we bear any responsibilty if you got "iced"?
This is not a game mate.
(Although how you can "out" someone who you have been claiming does not exist is a bit of a mystery.)
Posted by: Sonic at January 30, 2007 06:15 PM (r1k0Y)
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If you choose to broadcast the name of a prominent anti-Shiite media source -- whatever your shoddy, speculative research says about his veracity -- you're responsible for what happens to this man and his family.
Not somebody else, not 'liberals,' not the AP, not that guy over there or Hillary Clinton or 'the left,' but you.
Wait a minute... you
don't buy the AP's still official line that Jamil Hussein
is Jamil Hussein?
Why, I thought that the Iraqi Police, Interior Ministry, Iraqi Army, Iraqi Defense Minstry, firefighters, hospitals, morgues, Heath Ministry, CentCom PAO, American CPATT employees, and U.S. Army units were all lying, and that only the AP, Sadly, No! and Jamil Hussein were speaking "truth to power!"
Clearly any name I have is false, isn't it?
For if the name I have in my possession is his real name, then AP was lying then, and is still lying now, about Jamil Hussein being Jamil Hussein.
That then obviously makes any and all claims made by AP in this story completely suspect. Especially those elements that have been conclusively debunked, such as the claims 18 people died in an "inferno" at a mosque that never burned at all, that all four mosques were "destroyed" or "burned and blew up." You know, not just the one you harp on, that was abandoned to begin with.
It's all or nothing.
Either releasing the full name I have means nothing because the Associated Press stories and denials are all accurate and truthful, or the entire episode is exactly as I have described it: overexaggerations mixed with outright falsehoods, unsupported by any evidence on this earthly plane.
Choose your poison wisely.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at January 30, 2007 06:19 PM (HcgFD)
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Either releasing the full name I have means nothing because the Associated Press stories and denials are all accurate and truthful, or the entire episode is exactly as I have described it: overexaggerations mixed with outright falsehoods, unsupported by any evidence on this earthly plane.
You're missing the obvious. Outing anyone as AP's source is a dangerous thing to do - whether this guy's an angel telling truths or a mass-murdering liar - because Iraq is a screwed-up place.
Outing him has nothing to do with the truth value of AP reporting and everything to do with your pride.
Posted by: Righteous Bubba at January 30, 2007 06:35 PM (5SwAu)
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I realize I need to use smaller words for you guys:
Either releasing the name I have will do nothing, because the AP is right and his name is Jamil Hussein;
-or-
I'm right, and the name in my posession actually does identify the man behind pseudonym, and relasing the name would threaten AP's source... which means categorically that AP is lying.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at January 30, 2007 06:41 PM (HcgFD)
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You're not getting the point.
Associating any Iraqi name with any foreign group operating in Iraq is DUMB.
Your either/or has multiple results, not two, and some of them might be fatal.
Posted by: Righteous Bubba at January 30, 2007 06:49 PM (5SwAu)
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And you'd be wrong there as well, Bubba. This particular Jamil has a name so singular it was in and of itself a topic of note in one discussion I had.
Which brings us back around to this:
Either releasing the name I have will do nothing, because the AP is right and his name is Jamil Hussein;
-or-
I'm right, and the name in my posession actually does identify the man behind pseudonym, and relasing the name would threaten AP's source... which means categorically that AP is lying.
And yes, it really is just that simple.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at January 30, 2007 07:18 PM (HcgFD)
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"This particular Jamil has a name so singular it was in and of itself a topic of note in one discussion I had."
Keep dropping those hints mate, we all know what you are about to do.
Posted by: Sonic at January 30, 2007 07:23 PM (r1k0Y)
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Sir, you're down a rabbit hole. I'm not being sarcastic now; I'm being completely serious and polite.
It's entirely likely that 'Jamil Hussein' is a pseudonym. Take a look now at what you're claiming:
1) There are AP reports using this source that recount violent incidents in Baghdad.
2) These reports are often contradicted by official reports.
3) In many cases, these competing reports can't both be accurate.
5) 'Jamil Hussein' is therefore a terrorist sympathizer knowingly used by AP to spread lies about how Baghdad is supposedly beset by violence.
To begin at the very beginning, I'd look at #2 quite a bit more seriously if I were investigating this story. Example: That mosque that was officially undamaged, which in fact turned out to have been firebombed and raked with gunfire.
To my knowledge, that was the ONLY THING ever physically examined in these 'Jamilgate' investigations. It doesn't look very good, frankly.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Research Labs at January 30, 2007 07:28 PM (/ZGYc)
25
Either releasing the name I have will do nothing, because the AP is right and his name is Jamil Hussein;
-or-
I'm right, and the name in my posession actually does identify the man behind pseudonym, and relasing the name would threaten AP's source... which means categorically that AP is lying.
And yes, it really is just that simple.
And you're sufficiently certain of that to consider risking a man's life.
I haven't been following this story closely enough to have an opinion about what's going on, but the fact remains that, based on what you've posted here, you are willing to consider risking a man's life because you're certain that you're right, and that there is no conceivable third alternative that you haven't thought of yet.
This. Is. Not. A. Game.
Posted by: Keith Thompson at January 30, 2007 07:31 PM (cJhkH)
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Dear Confederate Yankee,
Please just don't do this. You are aware of of much more than I am regarding this person; however, there seem to be only 2 outcomes: either nothing happens, or something bad happens. If you're hoping for a third possiblity--fame, shaming the AP, or something else...well, please just don't do it. Have a conscience.
Posted by: Jeff at January 30, 2007 07:33 PM (AauQV)
27
This particular Jamil has a name so singular it was in and of itself a topic of note in one discussion I had.
My argument is that releasing names is bad - for reasons which should be obvious - and you tell me it's good because this guy's name is unique?
Really: you have not thought this through, and I can see I'm not going to have any effect. Maybe me posting is winding you up, so I'll stop.
Posted by: Righteous Bubba at January 30, 2007 07:34 PM (5SwAu)
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Keep dropping those hints mate, we all know what you are about to do.
Nope. Never did, and obviously, still don't.
Take a look now at what you're claiming:
1) There are AP reports using this source that recount violent incidents in Baghdad.
2) These reports are often contradicted by official reports.
3) In many cases, these competing reports can't both be accurate.
5) 'Jamil Hussein' is therefore a terrorist sympathizer knowingly used by AP to spread lies about how Baghdad is supposedly beset by violence.
Wow. Can't count, and can't even get the basic arguments correct. you're quite bad at this. As for the offical report, it provided exactly what Malkin posted
here.
To my knowledge, that was the ONLY THING ever physically examined in these 'Jamilgate' investigations. It doesn't look very good, frankly.
And here we run into our greatest limitation:
your knowledge. Your basic incuriousness. You desire to pursue snark, but never actually take the time to contact those who might have the actual answers.
We've talked to Associated Press staffers, a CPATT team member working with the Iraqi police and Interior Ministries, and MNF-I. Malkin has worked with these people, plus made a trip to the area, and talked to U.S. soldiers on the ground who were there that day, and collected video, still photos from the day after, and eyewitness accounts. See Dubya at Junkyard Blog actually plotted every attack alleged by Hussein on a map, showing he was in no position to have direct knowledge on the supermajority of them.
You? Your knowledge isn't much, and you'e expressed no real desire to have any. To date, you exist only to criticize what you are too lazy, or disinterested enough, to actually go out and research yourself.
It doesn't look very good, frankly.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at January 30, 2007 08:01 PM (HcgFD)
29
We've talked to Associated Press staffers, a CPATT team member working with the Iraqi police and Interior Ministries, and MNF-I. Malkin has worked with these people, plus made a trip to the area, and talked to U.S. soldiers on the ground who were there that day, and collected video, still photos from the day after, and eyewitness accounts. See Dubya at Junkyard Blog actually plotted every attack alleged by Hussein on a map, showing he was in no position to have direct knowledge on the supermajority of them.
Sir, I said that the only thing physically examined was the mosque. You counter by listing some things that are not physical evidence (e.g. 'talking to a CPATT team member' is not physical evidence), and by mentioning the video and photos that show the 'undamaged' mosque with scorch marks coming out of the windows, bullet holes everywhere, and (in the video) a giant hole blown in the dome.
I'd be wondering, if I were you, what the rest of the 'undamaged' mosques look like. That would be an important point of information as to whether AP is in fact inventing burned mosques, wouldn't you think?
Posted by: Sadly, No! Research Labs at January 30, 2007 10:20 PM (/ZGYc)
30
Sir, I said that the only thing physically examined was the mosque.
Sadly, no. You are wrong. Again.
As has been written about exhaustively, Iraqi Police, Iraqi Army, local firefighters, and U.S. Army units have physically visited the mosques, including the abandoned Nidaa Allah you are so obsessed with. The mosques were initially visited within one hour of the attacks being reported.
As previously stated, your knowledge isn't much, and you'e expressed no real desire to have any. To date, you exist only to criticize what you are too lazy, or disinterested enough, to actually go out and research yourself.
Had you done that basic research, you would have not have made the daft claim you just did.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at January 30, 2007 10:47 PM (HcgFD)
31
I will make a correction however, and agree with you that I was wrong to use the word "undamaged" to describe the mosques in a previous post.
They were quite obviously damaged, just not "destroyed" or the synonymous "burned and blew up" as the AP reports over-exaggerated, and there are pictures showing conclusively that while two of the mosques sustained some fire damage, one of the "destroyed" mosques—the one where the AP published an unsubstantiated claim by an al Qaeda-affiliated group that an "inferno" killed 18 people, including women and children—that no fire occurred at all. It was an entirely false claim, one of several demonstrably false or over-exaggerated that AP's Director of Media Relations refuses to address, correct, or retract.
I'll make corrections. Too bad the "professionals" seem unwilling to do the same.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at January 31, 2007 10:19 AM (g5Nba)
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"So you are going to do your damndest to get him killed (and probably his family killed too)"
Not to point out the obvious, but did the stringer who went by the pseudonym Jamil Hussein think of the damage or reparations that his reports would cause? I mean, he was accusing like it was fact that the Iraqi Army and US forces stood by while militia slaughtered civilians - what danger does that pose to the IA and US forces when people *will* take that propaganda and use it as truth in an already volatile environment?
Jamil and the AP obviously didn't care for the safety of others by irresponsible reporting. If he's in danger of being "outed", then the AP should fly him out of there since they are both the ones who put him in that position.
The truth shall set you free.
Posted by: MidnightSun at January 31, 2007 10:48 AM (6/tHL)
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One thing that might help you make this difficult decision is to consider how the consequences would impact you if irresponsible bloggers were actually ever held accountable for "outing" people. Say for instance that your decision resulted in the deaths of Hussein and any collateral individuals who might happen to be in the way when he is done in--which it mostly likely will, as you well know. Could you be legally tagged as an accessory to the crime? You most certainly would be morally culpable, but what does that matter? As long as you can sit in the safety of your living room and direct assasinations from long distance, you should be at least physically safe.
What a dilemma for you. Make a meaningless point about a minor issue and possibly contribute to the assasination of someone who doesn't agree with you vs. getting over it and addressing some of the real problems we have in this country. What to do? Given the current legal climate where bloggers and reporters are not held accountable for their heinous acts, I'd say you are perfectly safe in your plan to "out"--at least from human judgement.
Posted by: Michele at January 31, 2007 10:53 AM (ilGgp)
34
The "conversation" that erupts every time yet ANOTHER leftist media outfit gets caught passing off tripe as truth...is the whole reason behind this exercise of whether the character PLAYING Jamil should be identified in the credits of this broad farce brought to you...by the AP.
And the simpleton apologists who just can't seem to get their arms around this basic axiom...the truth matters.
For anyone with two firing synapses, the mere idea that the AP would try to foist upon the reading public a caricature of truth, through a caricature of a source, to tell us grand exaggerations and wholly fabricated whisper campaigns and urban legends...and that we find that unacceptable...is beyond the pale.
NOBODY was doused in kerosene and lit on fire, then watched by coalition forces while they squirmed on the ground in agony, then shot in the head-execution style, then taken to a morgue in a hospital, while these evil-doers rampaged through the civilian neighborhood homes burning them to the ground and killing women and children.
THIS is the story "sourced" by faux-Jam...outside his district...while he notched his 61st "credit" as the "ubersource".
It DIDN'T HAPPEN. He is NOT "Jamil Hussein". The truth matters. I know this is an incredible waste of time on kneejerk (accent on the second syllable) apologists for leftist lying rags, because the point of contention is never about any of the details, nor about the journalistic ethics (an oxymoron, if ever there was one in the leftists Ministry of Media propaganda farm)...the point of contention is at the core.
For them, the truth doesn't matter. Only their "message" matters. And if lies serve them better, then they will embrace any lie. They have no honor, they have no dignity, they have no loyalty, they have no principles...except those that serve "the message". So, reason and dialogue are impossible. (see, ie comments by them above)
By SHOWING that faux-Jam was a caricature...not a real person...it eliminates one element of the silly, inane apologist argument.
But, here's the rub. It won't convince them of the point that the truth matters...because, the truth doesn't matter to them. So, in the final analysis, it won't serve the purpose intended.
It will only serve to get them to reframe the issues, create strawmen, point fingers and cloud over the seminal point. They don't get it, because they don't want to get it. And you can't have an honorable discussion with people who have no honor.
So, here's the premise. FAUX-JAM is and was a composite character used to spread whisper campaigns and urban legends to further enhance the "message" that Iraq was beyond saving. The AP created this "ubersource" by planting stories in their reports using him as the "official" who was speaking with "knowledge". They did this knowingly and willingly and breached every ethical standard in journalism known today. They then covered up the episode with a pack of lies about his "real" existence and name, in order to hide their wilful breaches.
The apologists have not a single comeback for this that is either sensible, rational or real. They don't care...their handlers lie...and they will lie to provide social cover for the lying message developers. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid kids...over here...the truth matters.
Don't out him, CY...it won't do what needs to be done and will only give them fodder for producing more tripe for truth.
Posted by: cfbleachers at January 31, 2007 11:11 AM (5RM9g)
35
As if YOU would know who he "really" is. Wait...I thought he didn't even exist. Now, somehow, YOU know his "true identity"? How? Are you a journalist? Someone to be trusted with confidential information? Someone who somehow knows something no one else does? Uh-huh. That's what I thought.
What on earth do you think you're doing?
Posted by: concerned citizen at January 31, 2007 11:34 AM (vpBE3)
36
CY (and everyone), an analogy:
The AP is a tire store, Jamil is a jealous man who is having an affair with your best friends wife, Iraq. The tire store convinces the adulterous man to slash the very expensive tires on your best friends car (the mosques, etc.). The tire store doesn't know any of the people involved, and only cares about maximizing it's profits. The jealous adulteror doesn't care about tire profits, he just hates the husband and wants to do anything he can to bring him down. If you find out who personally slashed the tires, and the involvement of the tire store, and tell your best friend the cheated upon spouse who then beats the crap out of the boyfriend and sues the tire store, is that your fault? Both the AP and "Jamil" imho acted with malice aforethought, especially in the case of "Jamil", and inserted themselves into the conflict as direct actors. As such, I think it is in the public's interest to know WHO is doing WHAT regarding this issue. If "Jamil" would truly be placed in jeopardy by the public revealing of his name, then he can request political asylum here in the U.S. and go on the talk-show circuit. I say out his butt!
Posted by: Bryce at January 31, 2007 11:37 AM (Uop4Y)
37
Well, that's illustrative of
something.
Posted by: tb at January 31, 2007 11:44 AM (G/dJe)
38
The person using the Jamil Hussein pseudonym is clearly an enemy propagandist supported by a gullible AP. The idea you would be "outing" him is nonsense; you would simply be identifying one of the enemy - because he
is our enemy, AP's attempts to gloss over their own egregious complicity in treason with this lame "protect our source" veneer notwithstanding. Back when this nation still had backbone and a clear moral perspective, it was called "aiding and abetting the enemy", and would be a hanging offense. I'd shed no tears for the enemy dead, CY, whether pseudonymed Jamil or otherwise.
And a nation serious about it's security in a time of war would be taking a good hard look at the AP editors who signed off on publishing this enemy propaganda, as well as the NYT's breaches of national security.
Posted by: Joe at January 31, 2007 12:06 PM (RA2KU)
39
what is so hard to understand about this? even if you are right and "Jamil Hussein" is not his real name, and even if for some reason using a pseudonym in a deathzone means he is lying about everything, does that mean he deserves to die? even if his stories were lies, his stories were anti-shiite. he lives in a region populated with shiite death squads. you do the math buddy.
Posted by: Exalted at January 31, 2007 01:40 PM (vnFkH)
40
This individual needs to be exposed. That does not mean that he or his family deserve any physical attacks on them. Give them a chance to avoid this by announceing that you will "out" him at a specific time far enough away that he can seek protection from whoever sponsers him and then expose him at the announced time. Give him a couple of days.
I wouldn't worry about Bubba or Sadly. If "Jamil" died of an existing condition, they'd blame you anyway. "Jamil" and AP need to held to the same standards as any source, no protection if the information is false.
Posted by: Ken Hahn at January 31, 2007 03:06 PM (I/x6l)
41
Would your purpose in revealing his real name be to destroy his utility as a conduit of anti-US, poorly sourced stories to AP? If so, would revealing his identity accomplish this? Would it accomplish it only if he were killed as a result?
If that isn't your purpose, I don't see what it might be short of vindication in the anti-AP argument (in which I side with you). Don't let THAT determine your actions. That would be stooping to the level of MSM releases of classified data because they have a one-sided feud going with W. (That's meant as an analogy, not a close parallel.)
If the first case is so, and you're reasonably certain no real threat to life and limb exists to the man involved... I think I would expose him were I in your shoes. Revealing someone in this situation, someone who SOUGHT the limelight, albeit through alias (else why use a byline tied to his "identity?"), does not make you complicit in any act that follows unless you have reason to believe that WOULD follow. We are not responsible for the actions of others unless we are in a command position with regard to those others.
If you suspect a real threat to him would exist, you would accrue some culpability (at least moral) in that you knowingly allowed a situation to come about (that you might have prevented) in which he could be harmed. Call it negligence in the best case.
Posted by: Dan S at February 01, 2007 12:19 AM (yObEk)
42
I advise that you not post the real name of the person cited by AP as "Jamil Hussein" unless this person gives you permission to do so or you have good reason to believe that their life or the lives of their family would not be endangered. I think it is fair to ask people what they think you should do, and why. I also think that is fair to infer, from AP's lack of response, that they have conceded the point that their source was given a psuedonym and that this was a violation of good journalistic practices -- i.e., they should have called him an unnamed source, given what information they could about him and mentioned any potential sources of bias that this source might have had, at a bare minimum. They also most likely erred in relying on him as the sole source for numerous facts they reported and should have done additional fact-finding before publishing these stories.
Posted by: Mark Wilson at February 01, 2007 02:40 AM (TfqfG)
43
Tell the truth and let the chips fall where they may.
BTW, AP is not supposed to use pseudonyms.
Posted by: TCO at February 01, 2007 09:33 AM (uHrik)
44
Here's a question for y'all.
(First let me state, I haven't followed Jamilgate near one iota since it's began.)
Who, outside of the blogosphere, even remembers a thing about Jamil Hussein, let alone, cares? So what is outing him going to truly accomplish in the long run?
Posted by: Devil's Deputy Advocate at February 01, 2007 06:51 PM (guvxV)
45
If you really beleieve that this "Jamil Hussein" person, whoever he is or isn't, is an enemy of the US, and you have some relevant information about him, then report it confidentially to the authorities (the DoD or whatever). In fact, why the hell haven't you already done so? What possible purpose would be served by revealing this information to the public, and therefore to those who might want to kill him?
Posted by: Keith Thompson at February 01, 2007 09:27 PM (wY/Cp)
46
Personaly, I'd argue FOR outing the real Jamil Husein.
After all, we are being told that we should accept him as a credible source -- but the AP is going out of its way to hide his identity to keep us from judging for ourselves.
Frankly, I' tired of being told by the media that we should trust them -- especially when they insist that we are obliged to question the government and doubt everything it says. I believe teh MSM deserves the same treatment.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at February 01, 2007 11:04 PM (rwVGN)
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January 29, 2007
Walkback?
In the wake of my
January 25 26 letter to the Board of Directors of the Associated Press concerning the news organization's inaccurate reporting of the November 24 Hurriyah assault by Shia militias on Sunni mosques--a letter in which I provided to the Board of Directors the real name of AP source "Jamil Hussein"--the official Associated Press web site containing all of AP's official responses regarding Hurriyah has
curiously withdrawn the January 4 article by AP reporter Steven R. Hurst claiming that Jamil Hussein is Jamil Hussein.
A screen capture of the AP web page from January 8 containing the Hurst article is captured here.
A screen capture of the AP Web page, minus the Hurst article, as captured this morning, is online here.
Is the Associated Press beginning a walkback of it's Hurriyah coverage? If so, quietly attempting to scrub their reporting to date is perhaps not the best way to do so.
Perhaps they should start with a formal retraction acknowledging their comedy of errors.
As I have stated from the very beginning of this debacle, what we are witnessing in action via the Hurriyah scandal and the 39 of 40 AP stories attributed to Jamil Hussein that cannot be corroborated by a rudimentary search of other English-language news organizations of the same events, what we are witnessing is a flawed methodology for gathering the news that places far too much credibility in the words of questionable sources and local stringers with dubious allegiances, and no readily apparent internal mechanism for fact-checking the reports provided.
The advice I issued on December 18 is looking better all the time.
Update: Curt at Flopping Aces notes (via email) that while the AP has scrubbed the one file linked above where AP has been consolidating their Hurriyah reporting, they still have the Hurst claim posted here. Don't worry... if they attempt to scrub that, I have a screen capture of that page, as well.
Update: By the way... notice anything funny about the image used by AP in their "Freedom of Information" section? It appears to be a photo of terrorist detainees at Guantanemo Bay.
Does the Associated Press consider capturing terrorists a violation of AP's freedom of information?
It certainly does not apply to Jamil Gulaim XXXXX XX-XXXXXXX, who is presently back at work as an Iraqi police officer.
Update: Confirmed. The picture was of detainees arriving at Camp X-Ray in 2002.
Update: Linda Wagner, Associated Press Director of Media Relations and Public Affairs, states that the disappearance of the Hurst article is "purely a technical issue." It has since been restored to the AP web site.
Does anybody here with an IT background want to explain precisely how AP's "technical issue" would delete just the one post on the page, and not all of the posts on that page? I assume it could be a technical glitch, but my experience tells me that human involvement is a far more likely culprit.
Update, for the kids over at Sadly No!: who apparently can't figure out how to click a link. A whole indignant post, dedicated to something that did not happen... how sad. No?
As for CMS systems, they are typically set to default to a set expiration after "X" days. This was not in evidence here, nor was this what AP's Linda Wagner alleged happened.
While you are at it, why won't you discuss the other mosques (not that you've finally learned to spell Nidaa Allah correctly), particularly how it is impossible for AP's al Qaeda-linked source of the Association of Muslim Scholars to be correct that one mosque was gutted in an "inferno" that left 18 dead, only to have the same mosque open for regular services the next day, and soot free at that?
Why, that might require independent thought and actually looking at facts instead of reflexively attacking any evidence brought forth by a conservative, and we can't have that, can we?
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Posted by: Bill Faith at January 29, 2007 01:08 PM (n7SaI)
2
Here at Ohio University (using a P.O.S. called CommonSpot) I can set an exparation date for any section of text on the site. Perhaps whatever software they are using allows that same kind of control.
I do agree that it seems odd though that someone would have bothered to expire one post.
I wonder if this "technical" issue would have been caught if you guys weren't on top of them. My bet is that they were indeed trying to re-write the past and got caught, but that's just me..
Chuck
Posted by: Chuck Bennett at January 29, 2007 02:56 PM (DClOL)
3
The same response was received from Wagner in the comment section at
Rathergate.com. AP as originating IP confirmed.
Posted by: Tully at January 29, 2007 03:07 PM (kEQ90)
4
Apparently the AP will respond to a blog post or two, so long as the AP can avoid answering the questions the very same bloggers have been asking for a month or so...
Posted by: Karl at January 29, 2007 05:03 PM (FNd9l)
5
Does anybody here with an IT background...
Software rots just like wood. Really! I don't think even the dumbest non-technical managers I've ever seen would buy a story like that...
...well maybe one or two, but they probably got jobs at AP.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at January 29, 2007 09:59 PM (LITKT)
6
Michelle Malkin: Fact-checking the AP and Jamil Hussein
One of the mosques identified by the AP, the Nidaa Alah mosque, ... Small arms fire damage at the Nidaa Alah mosque, which had been abandoned at the time of ...
michellemalkin.com/archives/006728.htm - 43k - Cached - Similar pages
Posted by: Nidaa Alah Allah at January 30, 2007 08:59 AM (aOeXm)
7
Psst... concering your "truthiness" story
You wrote: "First, "Allah" is not spelled "Alah," you morons."
Really?
http://hotair.com/archives/2007/01/27/andrew-sullivan-smears-us-troops/
Hot air uses "Alah"
But of course it's sadly no, a comedy blog, that needs to "get it right"
Posted by: cokane at January 30, 2007 12:34 PM (bcKMK)
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Bad Day For the Bad Guys
300 terrorists--including Afghans, Saudis and one Sudanese--were killed in
a pitched battle near the Shiite holy city of Najaf, after Iraqi forces were tipped to a planned raid on Najaf that sought to kill Shia pilgrims and leading clerics at the Imam Ali Shrine. Among the targeted clerics was Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, the most revered of Iraq's Shia clerics.
The terrorists seemed to be composed of both Sunnis and a radical Shia sect. The goal of the attack seems clear: to plunge Iraq into a direct and all-out civil war along sectarian lines, dwarfing the present sectarian conflict and perhaps pre-empting the goals of the surge of American troops that hopes to stabilize Baghdad.
As Captain Ed notes:
The post-battle assessments should be interesting. Intelligence forces must be wondering why insurgents would attempt a straight-up fight against the Iraqis, and whether that indicates overconfidence or desperation.
Jules Crittenden brings up the very interesting point that the goal of the Shia sect involved in the attack, the Army of Heaven or Army of the Sky" depending on the translation, hoped to kill the assembled Shia Grand Ayatollahs to clear the way for the arrival of the Hidden Imam, also known as the Madhi.
It bears noting that this seems to be almost exactly in line with the goals and desires of the Hojjatieh sect of Shia Islam in Iran, the sect of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and the mullahcracy of Iran.
While I've seen no accounts of the battle that explicitly or implicitly state and Iranian involvement in either the planning nor the pre-empted execution of the attack to date, I'll be very interested to see if any evidence emerges that indicates Iran may have either had advance warning of the attack, or if they had a role in its planning. Considering Iran's probable involvement in the Karbala attack nine days ago that saw American soldiers kidnapped and killed is a sophisticated attack that may have directly involved the Qods Force branch of the Iranian Republican Guard Corps, I'd say anything is possible at this point.
If it can be proven that Iran was behind this disastrous (for the bad guys) raid, it seems likely that IranÂ’s plans to expand its role in Iraq is far from benign, and may be setting both of our nations on a path towards a more direct conflict.
I sincerely hope that the Iranian leadership is not intent of forcing our nations into a direct conflict, but they seem increasingly willing to take that risk.
Iran is not nearly as strong militarily, economically, or diplomatically as they would like to appear, and we have two branches of our military—the Air Force and the Navy—which are quite capable of leveling Iran’s infrastructure, their fledging nuclear weapons program and their military (mostly composed of conscripts) before they penetrate the Iraq border, should it come to a direct confrontation between our nations.
I donÂ’t think anyone in this country wants to fight in Iran and Iraq simultaneously, but as long as we donÂ’t desire to physically invade Iran and hold ground (and we have no reason to want to do so), we can wreck far more havoc in 2007 with our assembled regional air power than we ever brought to bear in the 1990-91 Gulf War.
Then again, you cannot ascribe rational motives to a group so radicalized that it was once outlawed by Ayatollah Khomeini in 1983. The Hojjatieh do not think in mortal terms and are obsessed with bringing about their sectÂ’s "End of Days" to usher forth the Hidden Imam. What we would see as an irrational escalation that could only bring about their defeat on the battlefield, may be exactly what they hope would trigger their hoped-for apocalypse.
Strange days, indeed.
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January 28, 2007
Clinging to Truthiness
It is quite amusing to see the braintrust at liberal blog
Sadly No! go after Michelle Malkin's debunking of the AP's Hurriyah reporting.
First, if you are going to claim to link to the original AP report, make sure that you are, in fact, linking to the original AP report.
SN! links to an ABC News report that was released sometime on November 25, in a report that appears to be no better than the third version of the story. The best I can determine, this report is a day ahead of Sadly's "original" post, and this account published at 6:01 AM on November 25 claimed that:
In Hurriyah, the rampaging militiamen also burned and blew up four mosques and torched several homes in the district, Hussein said.
"Burned and blew up," said Captain Jamil not-Hussein.
There is quite a bit of difference between Sadly No!'s hand-picked "original" article saying mosques were "burned" and the earlier article's claim that the mosques were "burned and blew up." Cherry-pick much?
Why, of course they do.
They focus almost exclusvely on the fact that the abandoned Nidaa Allah mosque took an RPG round which collapsed much of the dome. I'd like to make two points about this.
First, "Allah" is not spelled "Alah," you morons. We've been at war with radical Islam for five years, and you can't even spell the name of their God right?
Second, a partially collapsed dome does not a destroyed building make. To be sure, Nidaa Allah took some serious damage to its dome and some fire damage to several rooms, but this damage is still quite a stretch from what I picture when I hear that a building has been "burned and blew up."
Let me break it down to something even Sadly No! readers can understand... pictures.
Burned and blew up:
This was a building in Lebanon before Israel took exception to it. Notice most of it is rubble. This is what most people think of when they hear burned and blew up.
Not burned and blew up:
This mosque, the al-Muhaimin, looks pretty good for one of the four "burned and blew up" mosques. This specific mosque is where the AP uncritically relayed a report from the al Qaeda-affiliated Association of Muslim Scholars that "18 people had died in an inferno." Some inferno. To date, the AP still officially stands behind the claim of this terrorist-related group over that of coalition forces.
Of course, Sadly No! doesn't want to discuss this mosque's inconvenient intactness, any more than they want to look at any of the other AP claims about their Hurriyah reporting that simply doesn't stand up to further scrutiny.
The Associated Press claimed that 24 people died when four mosques were "burned and blew up." More than two months later, the damage they've claimed to the mosques has been conclusively proven to be exaggerated, and the Associated Press has been completely unable to substantiate one death, much less the 24 deaths they claimed.
But Sadly No! has little interest in presenting any of the other evidence that does not support their narrative. Instead, they side with the media and their terrorist-supplied storyline over that of American forces and our Iraqi allies. Does that surprise me?
Sadly, no.
Update: Bryan guts Sadly No! further.
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1
I put your example in their comments, h/t'd ya, but forgot to link it to you. Actually, that may have been an act of kindness. They get pretty rude in the comments section when cornered.
Posted by: Kevin at January 29, 2007 09:40 AM (H826O)
2
SN! links to an ABC News report that was released sometime on November 25, in a report that appears to be no better than the third version of the story. The best I can determine, this report is a day ahead of Sadly's "original" post, and this account published at 6:01 AM on November 25
All three of those articles, the one quoted by SN! and the two you refer to all contain the same statement you quote about mosques being burned and blown up. Even if it had not said the same thing (as you appear to believe), SN! states this themselves directly after they link to it.
Also, you will find that with Jerusalem being between 7 and 10 hours ahead of the US that they will, as a matter of couse, be publishing the previous day anything that is timestamped 6am when published in the US.
""Burned and blew up," said Captain Jamil not-Hussein.
There is quite a bit of difference between Sadly No!'s hand-picked "original" article saying mosques were "burned" and the earlier article's claim that the mosques were "burned and blew up."
Well there's actually not "quite a bit of difference" between these articles in terms of the quote cited, as this statement features in all three articles referenced:
ABC: "Earlier that day, rampaging militiamen burned and blew up four mosques..."
Gainesville: "In Hurriyah, the rampaging militiamen also burned and blew up four mosques..."
JPost: "The militiamen attacked and burned the Ahbab al-Mustafa, Nidaa Allah, al-Muhaimin and al-Qaqaqa mosques..."
First, if you are going to claim to link to the original AP report, make sure that you are, in fact, linking to the original AP report.
That would have been the perfect opportunity to do precisely that yourself. I mean, if you intended that statement as a type of "here's how you do it" exercise.
Instead though you went on to refer to the later editions of the AP article as quoted above. As you would no doubt know by this point, and after having invested so much time on this story, the *original* AP article is none of those mentioned and contains no mention of Sunnis burned alive as these later articles cited do.
In fact SadlyNo! repeatedly asked for someone to supply them with such a link in their first post about this before citing the available ABC article. Nobody concerned with rebutting them (as you are here) supplied them with one, which is a bit puzzling until you find out what it contains.
Especially since SN! is attacking Malkin's articles about the state of these mosques and her repeated assertions that they are not "destroyed" as being of particular significance in rebutting the AP reporting. A statement which doesn't appear in any of the articles you mention.
In previous posts you have tried to pass this off as an interpreted outcome from the quoted "burned and blown up" statement. But that's not the source of this claim Malkin repeatedly cites and it would be implausible you are unaware of that at this point.
Here is the *original* AP article featuring the "destroyed" claim which Malkin is stating has been refuted...
http://tinyurl.com/2455xx
11/24/06 10:10:28
"...revenge-seeking Shiite militiamen had
destroyed four Sunni mosques, burned homes..."
...and here is what replaced that edition a mere 30 minutes later...
11/24/06 10:40:28
""...members of the Mahdi Army militia
burned four mosques, and several homes...""
This Townhall article from Noonan was linked to from Malkin's website. It reveals that in focusing on refuting that these mosques were "destroyed" in Jan-07, Malkin has blown out of the water a claim which the AP retracted 2 months ago a mere 30 minutes after it was made.
"Cherry-pick much?"
Indeed.
Posted by: Nidaa Alah Allah at January 30, 2007 10:04 AM (aOeXm)
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January 27, 2007
Careful what you wish for
Since C.Y. isn't around and I found my spare keys to this joint I figured I'd try them out, at least 'til they get repossessed.
This can't be good, can't be good at all.
It really looks like the Democrats and Ma Pelosi are going to be able to keep that promise of a "new direction" they made to the American people. I give it six weeks tops before we start that "phased redeployment" they've been after for so long.
Too bad they weren't specific enough.
If I were a betting man I'd say we'll start dropping bombs in the next couple of months, if Israel doesn't beat us to it.
update: Of course we'd learn about Iran building Centrifuges as John Kerry's making nice with the Iranian President and blaming Americans for the world's problems. Mr. Kerry for one welcomes our new Muslim overlords.
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1
So what are you waiting for? Go enlist. Or do you have a "trick" knee also?
There's a lot of that going around, I hear.
Posted by: tbogg at January 28, 2007 12:32 AM (d7Sqx)
2
tbogg
so, if we enlist do we get to do whatever we think is right? Or whatever you think is right?
you are such a nitwit....
Posted by: iconoclast at January 28, 2007 12:51 AM (R5iSO)
3
tbogg: I enlisted. Therefore, by your logic, I just get to tell you what to think.
Posted by: brando at January 28, 2007 03:28 PM (uZ35s)
4
Posted by tbogg at January 28, 2007 12:32 AM
I enlisted, stayed for 20 years. So my opinion counts more and I say Pelosi is one of the worst things that happened to this country.
Posted by: Retired Navy at January 29, 2007 06:08 AM (BuYeH)
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January 26, 2007
Right to the Top
One thing I've learned over the course of my 35 years, is that when you have a customer service issue and the lower level support staff won't help you, it helps to go to their supervisors to get a satisfactory resolution. So what do you do when the person blocking your attempted to remedy the situation is senior management?
You go straight to the Board of Directors.
Julie Inskeep
Publisher
The Journal Gazette
Fort Wayne, Indiana
jinskeep@jg.net
David Lord
President
Pioneer Newspapers, Inc.
Seattle, Washington
dlord@pioneernewspapers.com
R. John Mitchell
Publisher
Rutland Herald
Rutland, Vermont
john.mitchell@rutlandherald.com
Jon Rust
Publisher
Southeast Missourian
Co-president, Rust Communications
Cape Girardeau, Missouri
jrust@semissourian.com
William Dean Singleton
Vice Chairman and CEO
MediaNews Group Inc.
Denver, Colorado
deansingleton@medianewsgroup.com
Jay R. Smith
President
Cox Newspapers, Inc.
Atlanta, Georgia
Jay.Smith@coxinc.com
Dear Publisher Inskeep, President Lord, Publisher Mitchell, Publisher Rust, CEO Singleton, and President Smith:
I write to you today as members of the Board of Directors for the Associated Press, asking you to write a wrong that Executive Editor Kathleen Carroll has steadfastly refused to address, even after being confronted with the evidence.
On November 24, 2006, a series of stories was published by the Associated Press concerning a series of Shia militia attacks upon Sunni mosques in the Hurriyah neighborhood of Baghdad, Iraq. Two these reports have been attached as PDFs, as they were published by Gainesville.com and the Jerusalem Post (gainesville11_25_26.pdf and jeruslampost11_24_06.pdf, respectively).
These reports allege that four Sunni mosques were "burned and blew up" and that 24 Sunni civilians (18 at one mosque, six at another) perished as a result of these attacks as nearby Iraqi Army units looked on. A particularly gruesome detail of the attacks were claims made by a long-time Associated Press source, Iraqi Police Captain Jamil Hussein, that when the al-Mustafa mosque was attacked, six Sunni men were pulled outside by Shia militiamen, doused in kerosene, and immolated—burned alive.
From that time until today, Associated Press Executive Editor Kathleen Carroll and International Editor John Daniszewski have officially held the position that these attacks occurred just as they have described.
These claims are:
The Associated Press originally claimed four mosques were "burned and blew up" in Hurriyah according to Police Captain Jamil Hussein, along with several houses.
That 24 people were burned to death. Six were pulled from the Ahbab al-Mustafa as it was attacked, the were doused and set on fire, according to AP source Captain Jamil Hussein. The AP also printed a claim by the Association of Muslim Scholars (a group suspected of strong ties to al Qaeda, a detail the AP left out of their reporting) that 18 more people, including women in children, were burned to death in an "inferno" resulting from a Shiite militia attack at the al-Muhaimin mosque.
The Associated Press initially claimed that Associated Press Television had video showing damage to the Ahbab al-Mustafa mosque where they claim these six men were immolated.
Executive Editor Carroll insists that their long-time source, Iraqi Police Captain Jamil Gholaiem Hussein, is exactly who they said he is.
The problem I've written to you to address, as the Board of Directors of the Associated Press, is that every single claim listed above is highly questionable; some have been proven to be exaggerated with photographic and videotaped evidence, and it is quite likely that some of the claims were fabricated entirely.
Once you read the evidence compiled below, I hope that you will consider having the Associated Press run an article correcting the mismanaged Hurriyah coverage issued so far, and perhaps several other issues as well.
To begin with, the Associated Press has never retracted nor corrected the claim that four mosques were "burned and blew up" (see the attached Gainesville article), even though photographic evidence was taken the following day (November 25) shows that all four mosques are still standing. Information about all four mosques are available for your review here:
Print:
http://www.nypost.com/seven/01212007/postopinion/opedcolumnists/destroyed___not_opedcolumnists_michelle_malkin.htm?page=0
Pictures from the day after the attacks took place:
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/006728.htm
Video from two weeks ago:
http://hotair.com/archives/2007/01/22/hurriyas-mosques-still-standing/
All four mosques sustained small arms fire. One abandoned mosque was fired upon with a rocket-propelled grenade that damaged its dome and a firebomb did burn two rooms. Another mosque had two rooms damaged by a firebomb. Of the two remaining mosques, neither one suffered any fire damage, though one had exterior damage due to an RPG strike.
In addition to grossly exaggerating the damage inflicted upon these four mosques, the Associated Press accounts of 24 deaths attributed to these attacks may have been entirely fabricated.
The largest number of casualties in the Associated Press accounts of the Hurriyah attacks was a claim sourced by the AP to the "influential"Association of Muslim Scholars, which claimed that 18 people burned to death in an "inferno at the al-Muhiamin mosque."
The Association of Muslim Scholars is a group deeply involved with the Sunni insurgency, including elements of al Qaeda. The Associated Press accounts conveniently skipped over that fact in order to carry their allegation, which is completely fabricated.
I return you once again to the pictures provided by Michelle Malkin in the link to her site above, which shows RPG and rifle fire damage to the exterior of the mosque, but also shows that Sunni worship service in that mosque the very next day. For the Associated Press claim to be true, there must have been a fire; there was none, and this account has conclusively been debunked. Even with this conclusive evidence, Kathleen Carroll stands behind the AP's reporting, and refuses to issue either a correction or a retraction.
In addition to these 18 AP-reported deaths that categorically did not happen, there is exactly zero corroborating evidence to support the AP-run claim of Jamil Hussein that six Sunnis were pulled from the al-Mustafa mosque, doused in kerosene, and burned alive. the AP account hangs squarely upon the word of Jamil Hussein; a "Sunni elder" the AP chose to cite as a secondary witness recanted his statement almost immediately, and AP reporters flatly buried denials made by other areas residents, including two local imams, that these alleged immolations never occurred.
And what of long time AP source Captain Jamil Hussein, the man who broke the story of the immolations, and still the only source saying the immolations occured?
He has been cited as an Associated Press source by name on 61 stories between April and November of 2006, and Editor Carroll claims that the AP has been using him as a source for up to two years. Interestingly enough, I did an English language Google search of the first 40 of the 61 accounts attributing Hussein as a source, and was able to verify just one of the 40 with corroborating accounts from other news organizations. Of those 39 accounts that were not corroborated by any other English-language accounts from other news organizations, research into both English and Arab language accounts of one assassination, along with Iraqi Police casualties accounts provided to Multinational Corps Iraq (MNC-I) and relayed to me for the day of June 20, 2006, seems to suggest that one story, the assassination of Iraqi Police Captain Amir Kamil, may have been fabricated entirely.
Jamil Hussein is not a source who's stories have been easy to corroborate, and the fact that his accounts came from all over Baghdad, mostly well outside of his jurisdiction, should have thrown his veracity into question months before Hurriyah became and issue.
Two variations of a map showing Hussein's duty stations and the locations of his alleged accounts show just how suspicious accounts are, and are located here:
http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/211760.php
By way of comparison, this is the equivalent of a New York Police Department officer based in Staten Island being used as source in Brooklyn, Long Island, the Bronx, Queens, and Harlem. Would you allow the reporters in your own organizations to get away with this? Executive Editor Kathleen Carroll and International Editor John Daniszewski apparently did.
Another point of contention is that she still maintains that "Jamil Hussein" is, in fact, the name of her source. This is patently untrue.
According to MNC-I, there is no police officer named Jamil Hussein, despite a January 4, Steven Hurst article (surprising enough, an AP-written article by someone who used Hussein as a source repeatedly) saying otherwise. According to a MNC-I email, Interior Ministry personnel records show that "Jamil Hussein" is actually Jamil Gulaim XXXXX XX-XXXXXXX [name redacted for blog publication]. If this is true--and MNC-I has been right on almost everything so far--then one of two things has occurred.
Either the Associated Press is guilty of extremely shoddy reporting, and has been duped as to XX-XXXXXXX's identity for two years, or the Associated Press reporters and editors involved, in direct violation of the organizations own code of ethics, used a pseudonym for their source.
Considering how rapidly Director of Media Relations and Public Affairs for the Associated Press Linda Wagner contacted me with a denial after I attempted to confirm to XX-XXXXXXX's identity with Steven Hurst (within 1.5 hours), I feel the second is more likely.
Let me now take a moment to review the case I've made:
The Associated Press reported 4 mosques were "burned and blew up." the physical evidence shows that this claim was greatly exaggerated, as all four building still stand.
The Associated Press claims that 24 people died as a result of these attacks. The same photographic evidence cited above flatly debunks the claim of 18 people dying in an inferno, as there was no fire. As for the claim that six people were immolated, there has never been the first bit of evidence to suggest this is true, and local civilians dispute that such an event ever occurred, as does all involved Iraqi Ministries (Interior, Health, Defense) and American military units in the area.
Jamil Hussein, who Kathleen Carroll would seem to imply is a rock-solid source, is not even Jamil Hussein, but Jamil Gulaim XXXXX XX-XXXXXXX. Jamil Hussein seems to be an unacknowledged (and therefore unethical) pseudonym. Only one of 40 accounts provided by Hussein can be readily verified, and it appears that one account, the assassination of Amir Kamil, may have been fabricated.
With all of this known, I hope that you act to restore integrity to the reputation of the Associated Press by correcting the inaccurate Hurriyah stories, and consider investigating how "Jamil Hussein" could have been allowed to be a source for AP for so long when his accounts seemed almost always uncorroborated and well outside of his jurisdiction.
I hope that you also take steps to assure that this kind of journalistic malpractice and "faith-based" reporting does not happen again.
Thank you very much for allowing me to present this matter to you.
Respectfully,
I was unable to find the email addresses of all of the Board's members, but feel confident that by contacting these members who have the AP's best interests at heart, that we might see some movement towards a correction of the Associated Press' overexaggerated and in some cases fraudulent reporting in the coming weeks.
Update: Heh. I take it somebody read it.
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1
right a wrong, not write a wrong, is what you mean. The latter is what they did.
Posted by: colin at January 26, 2007 01:23 PM (muz9j)
2
Crap. Dunno why I did that.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at January 26, 2007 01:30 PM (g5Nba)
3
Great letter. And great idea to go to the top to complain about the shoddy product they sell.
Posted by: Patty at January 26, 2007 02:27 PM (cqlKO)
4
I caught a few more typos, but figure since the letter was already sent...no sense pointing them out, it was the content...not the typos that are of paramount importance. No worries.
Great letter, it will be interesting to see if they even bother to respond. My suspicion is, they will give the old PKO and say that it's an internal matter for those in AP "management" to decide. But, it's certainly worth trying.
On a second item, LGF has some interesting news today about the "shot in the back of the head" portion of the downed helicopter...as a heads up.
Posted by: cfbleachers at January 26, 2007 02:31 PM (V56h2)
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Thanks for the effort. I hope at least one of them will actually read this; but I doubt it will get past their screeners.
Michelle Malkin has a good video on the AP this morning on her web site.
Posted by: Rod Stanton at January 26, 2007 04:03 PM (+1sk7)
Posted by: bird dog at January 26, 2007 05:25 PM (YadGF)
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Civic! Good on ya.
AP's like that giant Pillsbury Doughboy in Ghostbusters, so big and soft and numb that it doesn't feel pain and never but never has to say "I'm Sorry".
Sure, it's lefty & agenda-driven and dishonest whenever it feels like it, but that's power, ain't it!
Posted by: buddy larsen at January 26, 2007 09:12 PM (lCS93)
Posted by: Bill Faith at January 26, 2007 09:27 PM (n7SaI)
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Great letter and an even better idea. The American way to right a wrong is to take things to the people in charge.
As an aside, I went through the 61 AP notations listed by Curt at Flopping Aces, found and read online sources for the articles, and counted "only" 50 AP articles that use Jamil Hussein as a source. A few articles listed more than one incident sourced to Jamil Hussein, thereby increasing the count of incidents attributable to him. However, several of Curt's entries were duplicates - different articles based on the same incident - that decreased the total count. I don't think it makes one whit of difference but I thought I'd mention it here since you have done a yeoman's job of following up on this story.
Posted by: DRJ at January 26, 2007 09:46 PM (fv0m2)
10
db,
... if you want to be taken seriously, spend a little more time on grammar before sending out your silly screeds.
If you would like to indulge in condescending snark, you might wish to double-check your facts.
The error you highlighted is not a grammatical error, it is an error of diction or spelling.
Cheers,
Matthew
Posted by: Matthew Goggins at January 27, 2007 05:51 AM (CiApg)
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Good for you, CY, and thanks for the addresses. I have a few bones to pick with that bunch myself.
Posted by: RebeccaH at January 27, 2007 10:17 AM (Eodj2)
12
CY: Excellent work and many thanks for efforts.I have such a bad taste for the AP and other MSM anymore I have turned my back on them. I send letters and emails to the advertisers of MSM, Hit them where it hurts their pocketbooks.
Posted by: learner at January 27, 2007 04:55 PM (ag9hj)
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Nothing to See Here: Move Along
It's only the attempted trafficking of
weapons-grade uranium:
A top official at a Russian state scientific institute confirmed Friday that Georgia had sent Russia a sample of uranium allegedly seized in a sting operation and that it was weapons-grade, Russian news agencies reported.
However, Igor Shkabura, deputy director of the Bochvar Inorganic Materials Institute, said the size of the sample provided by Georgia was too small to determine its origin, the RIA-Novosti and ITAR-Tass news agencies said.
At least this buy last year was a sting; other developments make me wonder of other attempts to sell weapons-grade uranium were successful:
The standoff between Iran and the West over its alleged clandestine nuclear programme looks set to increase with a report emerging on Wednesday in a British newspaper asserting that Tehran has been acquiring North Korean assistance in preparation for its first underground nuclear test, which European officials believe could take place as early as the end of the year.
According to The Daily Telegraph, Tehran and Pyongyang have expanded their traditional military ties to the nuclear level, with the reclusive Stalinist state sharing with Iranian nuclear scientists all data and information pertaining to the first-ever North Korean underground nuclear test conducted last October.
The news is set to exacerbate tensions between Tehran and western capitals. However, it appears that Iran was aware that the development would soon be made public. Just two days earlier, it barred 38 nuclear inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) from operating on its territory, in a move that has already been slammed by France as evidence of Iranian discrimination against westerners from the United Nations nuclear watchdogÂ’s inspection team.
This is of course merely speculation (that's what you guys pay me the big blogging bucks for, isn't it?), but it would appear to make quite a bit of sense.
If Western intelligence agencies are correct then Iran's own nuclear weapons program should not have yet been able to yet develop weapons-grade uranium from the cascade of centrifuges they currently have in their possession, why is Iran seeking help to prepare for a nuclear weapons test now, unless they either have, or anticipate having, a warhead ready to test in the near future?
If Iran was angling for foreign weapons-grade uranium, it might also be worthwhile to imply a far more nefarious purpose... plausible deniability. Nuclear weapons have signatures that can be traced back of their country of origin. Should a nuclear weapon be smuggled overland into the target area, a la the "neo-con" episode of 24 and then detonated, then it would be more difficult to conclusively prove who was behind the blast.
Were Tel Aviv or San Diego to suddenly disappear in a blinding flash and the uranium signature trace back to Georgia instead of Iran, then it is much less likely that the United States would have the immediate justification for a nuclear counterstrike.
This of course, is all idle speculation. Right?
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WaPo Appalled at Concept of Killing the Enemy
You've just got to love how Allahpundit nailed the right level of near-hysteria in his headline about this
Washington Post article:
WaPo: U.S. declares war on Iran in Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Palestine.
The actual lede seems to me as a "about damn time" directive but WaPo somehow figures this is front page news:
The Bush administration has authorized the U.S. military to kill or capture Iranian operatives inside Iraq as part of an aggressive new strategy to weaken Tehran's influence across the Middle East and compel it to give up its nuclear program, according to government and counterterrorism officials with direct knowledge of the effort.
For more than a year, U.S. forces in Iraq have secretly detained dozens of suspected Iranian agents, holding them for three to four days at a time. The "catch and release" policy was designed to avoid escalating tensions with Iran and yet intimidate its emissaries. U.S. forces collected DNA samples from some of the Iranians without their knowledge, subjected others to retina scans, and fingerprinted and photographed all of them before letting them go.
Last summer, however, senior administration officials decided that a more confrontational approach was necessary, as Iran's regional influence grew and U.S. efforts to isolate Tehran appeared to be failing. The country's nuclear work was advancing, U.S. allies were resisting robust sanctions against the Tehran government, and Iran was aggravating sectarian violence in Iraq.
"There were no costs for the Iranians," said one senior administration official. "They are hurting our mission in Iraq, and we were bending over backwards not to fight back."
Three officials said that about 150 Iranian intelligence officers, plus members of Iran's Revolutionary Guard Command, are believed to be active inside Iraq at any given time. There is no evidence the Iranians have directly attacked U.S. troops in Iraq, intelligence officials said.
I guess this is an example of the difference between those of us who desire to actually succeed in Iraq, and those of us who don't.
Perhaps it is just my perception, but it seems to me that Dafna Linzer is gob-smacked at this idea that we would be targeting those training terrorists, and perhaps even filled with appropriate levels of self-righteous heartache, but my response is simply this: what took so freaking long?
Iranian foreign policy is in direct conflict with that of the United States across the Middle East, and they have provided military support, training, and presumably intelligence assets in both Iraq and Lebanon. They seek not to just destroy the tenuous democratic governments in these two nations and (no doubt) hopefully install puppet regimes of their own beholden to Tehran, but hope to destroy both the United States and Israel. Of course, we can't been sure of that last claim... Ahmadinejad has only stated it publicly about a dozen times, so we might be missing some nuance there.
I look upon this as a favorable development, but Allah has his full weltschmerz on:
The aim, obviously, is to beat back Iran influence across the region until theyÂ’re back to this point and are ready to make a deal on nukes. Like the surge, itÂ’s a good idea thatÂ’s years too late. Unlike the surge, which will be led by Petraeus, itÂ’s being run by BushÂ’s same old crew. I have no faith in them at this point to anticipate contingencies or react effectively when they occur, so color me reluctantly, cautiously pessimistic.
He makes a very valid point; we've been very reactive in Iraq instead of pro-active, which to my mind, means we've still got far too much of the war-fighting decision-making coming out of the White House instead of in the theater of operations, where these decisions should be made.
I have some hopes that nomination of Army Lt. Gen. David Petraeus to command American forces in Iraq will change how we fight there. Petraeus has been in Iraq twice, and has learned from the school of hard knocks what doesn't work, and also, hopefully, what might, as he helped draft the Army's new counterinsurgency manual.
In the past, the United States Army has excelled at countering insurgencies and perhaps with the right leadership, it can do so again, but it remains to be seen if a lame-duck Administration and a mewling Congress will actually allow the military the time, resources, and rules of engagement necessary to win.
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Posted by: David M at January 26, 2007 11:18 AM (kNjJk)
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The REAL PROBLEM IS, lack of TROOPS. It's STILL AN ALL VOLUNTEER MILITARY. ENLIST TODAY.
Posted by: Mike Meyer at January 26, 2007 01:07 PM (Iw/jc)
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errr, Mike?
Having 100 soldiers that cannot kill the enemy is no better than having 1 soldier unallowed to kill the enemy. In that situation, all more troops provide is more targets. duh.
Posted by: iconoclast at January 27, 2007 12:59 PM (R5iSO)
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Thank You, President Bush
I just filled up my tank for $1.979/ gallon. Finally, the War for Oil is paying off!
Now, if it will just keep going down to the $1.679 a gallon I was paying before the invasion...
Update: That really ought to help those Two Americas we've heard so much about.
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Not to brag but it's $1.89 here in Michigan. Damn near free!!!
Posted by: markm at January 26, 2007 09:39 AM (hVOTO)
2
I paid $1.71 the other day in Kansas but I get a dime a gallon off...
And I paid $1.58 last week in the Nations in Oklahoma, where the tax is all tribal.
Posted by: Tully at January 26, 2007 10:11 AM (kEQ90)
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January 25, 2007
Sign the NRSC Pledge
Hugh Hewitt started the idea,
N.Z. Bear whipped it into shape, Dean Barnett provided the
FAQ and
here it is, with over 12,000 signatories so far in the first full day.
What's it all about? It's simple, really:
If the United States Senate passes a resolution, non-binding or otherwise, that criticizes the commitment of additional troops to Iraq that General Petraeus has asked for and that the president has pledged, and if the Senate does so after the testimony of General Petraeus on January 23 that such a resolution will be an encouragement to the enemy, I will not contribute to any Republican senator who voted for the resolution. Further, if any Republican senator who votes for such a resolution is a candidate for re-election in 2008, I will not contribute to the National Republican Senatorial Committee unless the Chairman of that Committee, Senator Ensign, commits in writing that none of the funds of the NRSC will go to support the re-election of any senator supporting the non-binding resolution.
What did I think of it? Of more than 12,000 signatories, I'm #7. What are you waiting for; McCain to grow a spine?
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I MUST AGREE, we elect these people. If they don't do what we want, don't give them a fucking dime.
Posted by: Mike Meyer at January 25, 2007 10:44 PM (S8sN4)
2
I doubt the GOP senators who oppose the surge are quaking in their shoes about p***ing you all off. The 12,000 of you who have signed up probably account for nothing more than a negligible percentage of their campaign funds. And you add up to even less of their vote counts. This is destined to be just yet one more time where the blogosphere ends up with egg on its face after overestimating its power and pull. But if it makes you feel good, go ahead.
While Petraeus is no doubt sincere that such a resolution would give encouragement to our enemies, so what? I question just how much attention the insurgents pay to the intramural politics here in Washington as opposed to the attention they pay to how many of them are getting killed by our military... yeah, I figure the insurgents are all reading the NYT and getting all encouraged... all the while, their units get chewed up everytime they face off against our military.
As for me, I don't give cash to politicians. But since I'm opposed to a surge, perhaps I should start giving to those who disappoint you?
Posted by: steve sturm at January 25, 2007 10:47 PM (XBWtm)
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It's your nickle, give it to whomever you want. Remember though, EVERYTHING that happens starts with ONE PERSON saying something to another. Personally, I don't see the surge as changing the situation much. 160,000 of us---26,000,000 of them.
Posted by: Mike Meyer at January 26, 2007 12:45 PM (Iw/jc)
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I've Heard This Song Before
Salon.com, which I rarely read any more (and perhaps this is why), has published a historical account of how Democratic doves won their war in southeast Asia.
On the third page of this even-handed academic work (so even-handed it labeled President Bush as "war-mongering president" in the first paragraph of the post, but I digress) the author, Rick Perlstein, states:
...McGovern-Hatfield failed because of presidential intimidation, in the face of overwhelming public support. Nixon and Nixon surrogates pinioned legislators inclined to vote for it with the same old threats. A surviving document recording the talking points had them say they would be giving "aid and comfort" to an enemy seeking to "kill more Americans," and, yes, "stab our men in the back," and "must assume responsibility for all subsequent deaths" if they succeeded in "tying the president's hands through a Congressional Appropriations route."
But isn't that interesting: There wouldn't have been subsequent deaths if they had had the fortitude to stand up to the threats.
What Perlstein means, of course, is that there wouldn't have been subsequent American deaths if liberal doves had forced an earlier withdraw from southeast Asia.
There are a number of deaths--just a few-- that Perlstein doesn't address that occurred after we ceded southeast Asia to communism.
These skulls represent just a few of the estimated 1.7-3.0 million Cambodians who died on Pol Pot's killing fields. 165,000 perished in Vietnamese "re-education camps" after doves forced our withdrawal, and South Vietnam collapsed. Millions more fled the country in fear for their lives. The mass exodus gave birth to the term "boat people," as a description of the resulting international humanitarian crisis.
Perlstein advocates today's liberal doves to follow the strategies of their past, even though those policies resulted in the murder of millions and the displacement of millions more.
How many more Iraqis may die as a result of the near-term withdrawal from Iraq that Perlstein and other doves desire? How many Iraqis can and will flee?
What kind of failed nation-state would remain? How many more Muslims would be wooed to the cause of Jihad as they see America defeated?
Perlstein and his fellow doves refuse to look that far down the road, in either direction. To defeat a "war-mongering president" and teach America a lesson, the sacrifices are worth it... just so long as those sacrificed aren't Americans.
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You keep interfering in some good ole history revisionism. At this rate, Salon will never be able to move to the next phase of air brushing history, titled "Stalin Good, Truman Bad".
Posted by: Actual at January 25, 2007 07:54 AM (wthW1)
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Linked over at my house. http://pcrevolt.blogspot.com/2007/01/results-from-withdrawing-from-iraq.html
Can't seem to get trackback to work.
Posted by: CoRev at January 25, 2007 09:19 AM (Hr52v)
Posted by: Retired Spy at January 25, 2007 10:06 AM (Xw2ki)
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As steet cops say - don't pay any attention to what they're saying, watch their hands if you want to know their true intentions.
The left has never had any conscience problems with ultra-high body counts. Watch their hands, watch the results.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at January 25, 2007 03:44 PM (LITKT)
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bravo. aso: dove retreat from vietnamization occurred 2 yrs after last us troops had left.
also, this led to afghanistan invasion and then the fall of the shah.
also, along with retreat from somalia this led binladen to bvelive he could do to the USA what mujahadeen (and USA) did to ussr.
the dove don't want victory and they don;t accept that retreat is defeat. they love appeasing, on principle.
DEMOCRATS REALLY DON'T WANT VICTORY
SALON:
"Why Democrats can stop the war"
"STOP" not win.
KERRY:
"Above all else, the mission we must all join is to end the war in Iraq."
"END" not win.
GOLDBERG/NRO:
... the Dems would not stand up en masse was when Bush said we should pursue victory:
This is not the fight we entered in Iraq, but it is the fight we are in. Every one of us wishes that this war were over and won. Yet it would not be like us to leave our promises unkept, our friends abandoned, and our own security at risk. Ladies and gentlemen: On this day, at this hour, it is still within our power to shape the outcome of this battle. So let us find our resolve, and turn events toward victory.
ME: The Dems don't want to win, and they do not care about the consequences, either.
Posted by: reliapundit at January 25, 2007 11:54 PM (BBXV+)
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WE left these people hanging out to dry at the end of Gulf War 1. Kissenger has sold the Kurds to the Regime 2 of 3 times, (why he can't go to Europe, arrest warrants)were you bitching about that? We did it before and NOBODY seemed to complain.
Posted by: Mike Meyer at January 26, 2007 01:02 PM (Iw/jc)
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January 24, 2007
Partial Scores
According to a centcom.mil press release, 100 members of "The Council" in Diyala were killed and 50 more were detained in operations of the past few weeks. They were
all terrorists.
U.S. and Iraqi forces killed 100 terrorists, detained 50, and dismantled a large terrorist group in January during Operation Turki Bowl, the senior U.S. Army officer in IraqÂ’s Diyala province said yesterday.
The operation, conducted from Jan. 4 to 13, occurred south of Balad Ruz in the Turki Village, Tuwilla and 30 Tamuz areas of the province. During the operation, U.S. Army and Iraqi soldiers isolated and defeated a terrorist group known as “The Council,” Col. David W. Sutherland, commander of 3rd Brigade Combat Team, 1st Cavalry Division, told reporters via satellite connection from a news conference in Iraq.
“The group, made up of former Baath Regime members, al Qaeda and Sunni extremists, refused to participate in any political dialogue and preferred attacking innocent civilians in the Diyala province,” Sutherland said.
Did U.S. media outlets cover this victory where 100 terrorists were killed and 50 were captured? No. They responded with hardly a whisper.
They certainly found plenty of time to discuss it when 100 civilians were killed, however.
100 dead civilians is front page news around the globe, especially here in the United States, but 100 dead terrorists? It barely garners a mention.
It seems it has become a fairly standard practice to report half the war in the American media, so perhaps it should come as no surprise that Americans are against a war where all that ever seems to occur the deaths of American soldiers and Iraqi civilians.
To use a metaphor of a basketball game (and I'm shamelessly stealing this from a local radio host by the name of Bill Lumaye), it is as if the media consistently reports that the local college team scored 70 points in Wednesday night's game after scoring 68 the Saturday before and 63 the Wednesday before that; you're only getting part of the story, and certainly not enough to know who won.
Without knowing how the other team did, you don't know the whole story, and as the on-going saga of the Associated Press/Jamil Hussein scandal reminds us, it doesn't help when even that partial score is grossly exaggerated.
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One of the mistake of the Media war today was our fear of the 'body count' mentality of Vietnam. In Vietnam, the leadership equated body count with victory. It kept on pushing that we were winning because we were killing more and more of them than they were with us. That was a mistake then, but we have overreacted to the point that you almost never hear any hard numbers out of any operation, whether the number is 1 or 100. What this has left was a gaping hole in the story that the media now fills with pure crap. No numbers from CENTCOM means we need to get the numbers from Captain Jamil YouKnowWho.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at January 24, 2007 05:05 PM (oC8nQ)
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What Bohica said. For whatever reason the military in Iraq very seldom releases any numbers, even estimates, for enemy casualties. I don't know if the media would report these numbers with the prominence they report dead Americans and dead civilians (well yes I do know) but they don't even get the chance. I guess it's overreaction someplace in the Pentagon to the Vietnam body count numbers.
It's weird though because in Afghanistan numbers of enemy dead are reported all the time.
Posted by: moon6 at January 24, 2007 10:20 PM (qmM4O)
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It would sure help morale (mine anyway) to read about dead Jihadis.
Posted by: moon6 at January 24, 2007 10:21 PM (qmM4O)
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36,000 Iraqi's died last year
Nobody wants to say how many of those were suspected bad guys.
Why might that be?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at January 25, 2007 12:44 AM (HoI9m)
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Well said CY. Your article is dead-on. Geep up the great work.
Posted by: brando at January 25, 2007 01:29 AM (uZ35s)
Posted by: brando at January 25, 2007 01:30 AM (uZ35s)
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the best part of that article is the name of the operation - "OPeration Turki Bowl" excellent!
Posted by: negentropy at January 25, 2007 04:47 PM (27KAF)
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Jihadis got what they asked for, Civilians, well, that's why they they're called Civilians, ain't asking for any trouble. Could be why they get top billing, cause they didn't ask for it.
Posted by: Mike Meyer at January 25, 2007 07:15 PM (1HRMg)
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Strange deja vue look back at Vietnam. Some of the blogs I read remember that we had achieved something close to military victory over there before the anti-war activists stormed into Congress and sold us out. The Viet Cong, beloved of so many college liberals were dead, killed in Tet. The army of North Vietnam conquered Saigon after the Democratic Congress cut off military aid and support from the United States.
Millions died in Vietnam and Cambodia.
Al Qaeda has died by the thousands, and is hated in both Iraq and Afghanistan. They are now the face of the insirgency.
And what is the Democratic Congress trying to do now??
And what will the the cost in lives??
Posted by: Rob at January 25, 2007 11:36 PM (Uibui)
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January 23, 2007
Live-blogging the State of the Union
You're kidding... right? Pardon me if I have better things to do than to listen to President Bush disappoint me once again on a whole raft of issues where he holds positions far from conservative (my first choice) or libertarian (my second).
The only thing tonight I'm anticipating less? Jim Webb's rebuttal.
Perhaps it shouldn't surprise me that the Democrats would turn to another war veteran to do their dirty work, though perhaps Webb should wonder why liberals only turn to veterans when they endevour to find a beard to help them lose wars.
Update: Using MKH's live-blogging as a guide, it looks like I didn't miss much, though it might have been mildly entertaining to watch Speaker of the House "Blinky."
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I will say that once I got over the fake radio voice, he had a smooth delivery which for some reason surprised me.
I really liked the "my father was military, I was military"...so we know how to give in to defeat.
Posted by: markm at January 24, 2007 06:39 AM (hVOTO)
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CRACKDOWN: Iraqi PM Locks Down Official Media Access to Key Government Ministries
An anonymous source from within Baghdad's Green Zone has provided me with a copy of a document issued from the office of Iraqi Prime Minster Nouri Al-Malki, ordering the shutdown of contacts with the world press on "any topics that relate to security issues."
The document was directed to "the official speakers or the media advisors" within the Iraqi Interior and Defense Ministries.
No context was provided.
This will likely mean an increased reliance upon anonymous sources in regards to security-related news coming out of Iraq.
This is not a good development for transparent government nor for Iraqi democracy.
Copies of the document in it's original and translated formats are provided below.
Copy of Original:
Copy of Translation:
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:04 PM
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Post contains 142 words, total size 1 kb.
1
Malki == Diem
Just a matter of time...
Posted by: Purple Avenger at January 23, 2007 01:15 PM (HoI9m)
2
We will need to bring back jamail
Posted by: John Ryan at January 23, 2007 03:49 PM (1dOeJ)
Posted by: Bill Faith at January 23, 2007 04:03 PM (n7SaI)
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