August 31, 2007
Images Redacted
Brian De Palma is tediously consistent if nothing else.
His Vietnam war fiction "Casualties of War" portrayed American soldiers as rapist thugs merely bidding their time for the opportunity to commit inhuman acts against a bucolic population.
Unlike "Casualties," which was filmed decades after the war in Southeast Asia, De Palma's new film, "Redacted" is an admitted attempt by De Palma to sway world opinion against Americans soldiers while they are actively engaged in combat.
A new film about the real-life rape and killing of a 14-year-old Iraqi girl by U.S. soldiers who also murdered her family stunned the Venice festival, with shocking images that left some viewers in tears.
"Redacted," by U.S. director Brian De Palma, is one of at least eight American films on the war in Iraq due for release in the next few months and the first of two movies on the conflict screening in Venice's main competition.
Inspired by one of the most serious crimes committed by American soldiers in Iraq since the 2003 invasion, it is a harrowing indictment of the conflict and spares the audience no brutality to get its message across.
De Palma, 66, whose "Casualties of War" in 1989 told a similar tale of abuse by American soldiers in Vietnam, makes no secret of the goal he is hoping to achieve with the film's images, all based on real material he found on the Internet.
"The movie is an attempt to bring the reality of what is happening in Iraq to the American people," he told reporters after a press screening.
"The pictures are what will stop the war. One only hopes that these images will get the public incensed enough to motivate their Congressmen to vote against this war," he said.
As noted above, De Palma's film is propaganda to which he proudly admits:
"The pictures are what will stop the war. One only hopes that these images will get the public incensed enough to motivate their Congressmen to vote against this war," he said.
I wonder how this country would have responded if Director John Ford had released a film showing American servicemen raping and killing an innocent Japanese girl in 1943 and murdering her family, instead of the propaganda film December 7.
In 1944, Ford was a commander in the USNR, and watched the June 6, 1944 invasion of Normandy from the USS Plunkett as the destroyer screened troop transports off Omaha Beach, and later landed on sands tinged red with the blood of American soldiers. To this day, most of the film Ford's team of combat cameramen shot on "Bloody Omaha" has never been seen. One may wonder how De Palma would have reacted in such a setting. Would his reaction have been to have noted the sacrifice of America's soldiers, or to vilify them for shooting fair-haired soldiers of the Wehrmacht as their lines collapsed and were overrun?
It seems almost certain that if De Palma covered the battle for Okinawa in 1945, his predilection for vilifying the American military would no doubt have led him to tell the story of the noble schoolteacher who led her classroom of children over the cliffs to their deaths at Humeyuri-no-to, and the bloodthirsty Marines they escaped from into death.
Of course, De Palma isn't making movies during World War Two vilifying AmericaÂ’s soldiers; he's making movies during a current war vilifying Americans soldiers.
What would once have been quickly identified as treasonous or seditious in past conflicts is now something that appears to be quite fashionable among certain aspects of our society.
De Palma and like-minded souls in Venice, Cannes, and Santa Barbara, of course, feel brave for making a film that portrays the young Midwestern privates and southern specialists and street-smart second lieutenants from Jersey on the frontlines as savages, capable and yearning to unleash unbearable cruelty.
As sweat drips in the eyes of soldiers and Marines as they attempt to bring peace to a land that has rarely known it, their enemies will be watching pirated and crudely-dubbed bootlegs of Redacted in training camps in Syria, in mosques in Saudi Arabia, and in homes throughout the Arab world, who already take a suspicious view of the American soldier in Iraq.
We will not see the pictures that would actually win the war, of an Iraqi father wrapping his arms around a suicide bomber to keep him from entering a mosque, or of the Iraqi interpreter who proudly dreams of becoming an American Marine. We won't see American ssaving Iraqi lives, or Iraqis saving American lives, or the brutality of those we fight.
Those, you see, are the pictures that Brian de Palma has redacted.
Blast From the Past: I'd almost forgotten. Venice was a pretty smart choice for De Palma, as the Italians have quite the fetish for dishonest anti-war propaganda.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
Is it just me or does DePalma have a penchant for films involving the rape of young girls. I bet poor John Ford is turning over in his grave.
Posted by: Tarheel at August 31, 2007 02:18 PM (5EyBQ)
2
shooting fair-haired soldiers of the Wehrmacht as their lines collapsed and were overrun?
or
rape and killing of a 14-year-old Iraqi girl by U.S. soldiers who also murdered her family
...And you righties are always spluttering and mewling about your problems with the perceived "moral equivalency" practiced by the left. Putting these two situations on equal footing is disgusting.
Posted by: nunaim at August 31, 2007 02:39 PM (22/Qe)
3
It's despicable to see what De Palma is doing. It's totally irresponsible and only for political gain on his own part. He would be happy if we left now, Al Qaeda moved back in killed and terrorized the iraqi people with their taliban style rule.
What he's doing is sick and wrong.
Posted by: john at August 31, 2007 02:53 PM (1RKaX)
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Brian De Palma?
He is the one who gave us that 1984 blockbuster, Body Double.
Posted by: Dave at August 31, 2007 03:11 PM (38EUg)
5
Ah liberals.
Always the humanists.
Out of the 1000s of atrocities committed in Iraq on a daily basis- the mass murders, the car bombs, the assassinations, the rapes, the beheadings, the tortures, the 10s of thousands slaughtered by jihadis and ex-baathist thugs,
Only when the atrocity is done by an AMERICAN SOLDIER does it get his attention, and justify dumping millions into a feature film
Yeah, he cares about Iraqis.
His selective outrage is laughable if it wasnt disgusting
He isnt against America. He's for the other side.
Posted by: TMF at August 31, 2007 04:30 PM (+Ac3z)
6
Dave,
Don't forget the mega-hit, "Bonfire of the vanities"
Posted by: Brad at August 31, 2007 05:55 PM (DMnkh)
7
You mean you'd rather cover it up? Hide the fact that real justice was doled out in American courts for these heinous crimes? One soldier got 100 years, one 90 years, Steven D. Green, the ring leader may get the death penalty.
Why wouldn't you want that broadcast far and wide?
Posted by: markg8 at August 31, 2007 06:45 PM (7xxF4)
8
I totally agree with TMF... My padna Lil Country and Me witnessed the day they dumped the decapitated body of that Korean Student on Route Irish that the insurgents had offed. they didn't even have the decency of dumping his squash with his carcass... just a jumpsuited body sans casaba.
This being ONE of DOZENS of innocent-murdered bodies we saw during a 22 month tour. NO MENTION by the "Bleeding Hearts" of the constant infliction of violence on the Innocents by the REAL Bad Guys but a constant harping on our US Troops. This leads me to my next thing:
I Have a THEORY: Its a odd one, but roll with me on this for a second. I've noticed an ever increasing trend that has YET to be picked up by ANY media source or even anyone else that I can tell.
Having said that, I have noticed an increase in denial of their aging by the "Baby Boomer Generation" which happens to be the majority of the scum-sucking 1960's anti-Vietnam War peaceniks.
This include my own parents. They are constantly trying to "Live Younger" and "Act Young" on a regular basis. Isn't it true that the Mass Media regularly dump stories on us on how "Young" the current crop of 59 to 65'ers are? How they are 'extending their lives' and all that crap? Look at the number of ads and drugs that are being pushed with the idea of 'living longer' and all that jazz...
Is it possible we are seeing a MAJOR resurgence in anti-military/anti-war behavior because of these sorry 'people' are intent on "Recapturing Their Youth" and "Leaving ANOTHER Mark for Another Generation by stopping THIS war"?
Does this have more to do with the DENIAL of the fact that they are a bunch of sorry retreads who learned the hard way that they were WRONG about Vietnam and that they are setting themselves up for future failure? Add on that in their self centered minds "THIS TIME WE'RE RIGHT!!!!"
Who do they think is going to be taking care of their wrinkled butts in another 20 years? Do they have any concept of this? My thoughts are NO. Its been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Post WW2 Generation... those of the '60's Lovefest' are the most self center egocentric and completely spoiled rotten group to have ever had the unfortunate situation of having been spawned. Because of their "Me-me-me-me-me" Selfishness and the denial of "Aging Gracefully" they are setting us up for failures that they themselves won't live to see. Islam-America anyone? Among the leftists and retreads.. do the see this as a possibility? Nah... No Hope for them... If you think I'm wrong... just look at the "Usual Suspects" out there who are either 'trying' or 'doing' in playing a role in the Anti-War (bowel)Movements:
Hanoi Jane Fonda
John "5 1/2 Months Incountry" Kerry
John "EX-Marine" Murtha
Ralph "Sunbeam" Nader
Justin Raimondo
Cindy Sheehan
and a host of others...all 60's and wannabe retreads.
And for those of you who wish to argue that the youth of America are involved as well:
The Younger Generation in College right now are being taught by what has been referred to as the Most Leftist Group of Professors this side of Joseph Stalin. And for this, I offer, my Dad has been a Professor in the state he calls the Peoples Socialist Republic of Massachusetts for 25 years... I know how bad it is... it's part of why he retired this year... anyways
nuff said... let the flames begin!
Posted by: Big Country at August 31, 2007 06:53 PM (q7b5Y)
9
Only when the atrocity is done by an AMERICAN SOLDIER does it get his attention
NO MENTION by the "Bleeding Hearts" of the constant infliction of violence on the Innocents by the REAL Bad Guys but a constant harping on our US Troops.
First: we're supposed to be the
good guys, you fools. Are you seriously proposing that we judge our own behavior against the behavior of terrorists? As long we're not as bad as they are, then everything's cool?
Second: Our military presumably has the power to control the behavior of our soldiers, so it makes sense to complain about something that we can, at least nominally, have some influence over.
Duh.
Posted by: nunaim at August 31, 2007 07:17 PM (OJvAD)
10
nunaim:
The concept of "Good Guys" and "Bad Guys" went out the door years ago with "White Hats" and "Black Hats." Unfortunately its the fact of life. The fact that we
haven't gone
completely apeshit and done what
really needs to be done shows the US Militarys restraint.
As suggested by my 'Fixer' (who thankfully I helped get out of Baghdad before the place became a TOTAL cesspool), he had his own ideas.
Mohammned told me (and he's a devout Shiite) that if we, the American and Coalition forces
really wanted to stop the uprising and insurgency, his advice was that every single mullah who was publically speaking out against the Coalition be graphically and publically executed and their bodies be left in the streets as a warning to others.
Doing this he said would have prevented 95% of the violence that has since been perpetrated. The Iraqis he explained to me only respect strength and terror, and not necessarily in that order. Saddam for all his insanity understood the fracteous nature and basic tribalism of the people here, and stamped down accordingly.
Unfortunately or Fortunately, we as Americans prefer to approach things with a "nice guy approach." It's what gets our teeth kicked in every time. Nice Guys and Leftist finish last... reality is peace comes from a barrel of a gun, not from vacuous wishful thinking.
Posted by: Big Country at August 31, 2007 07:56 PM (q7b5Y)
11
No one forgives the rape and murder of a girl and her family--and the individuals involved were prosecuted because in fact we are the good guys--or at least keep our soldiers under more control than most other armies.
Nunaim goes into paroxysms of liberal guilt and angst. I suppose if it makes him or her feel better that's okay. In the meantime, Nunaim should get out of the way of the serious people and sit off in a corner somewhere nursing his/her aganst.
Posted by: Mike Myers at August 31, 2007 08:42 PM (774Bg)
12
Geez nunaim, even if we can't control the real bad guys in Iraq, how come we can't talk about them on TV or in the press in this country. TV shows about radical Islam get censored or cancelled, articles get spiked, Reuters doesn't even have the word terrorist in their lexicon (admittedely they're not U.S.). If we can talk about the bad deeds of the goog guys, why is there an embargo on a discussion of the bad deeds of the bad guys?
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 31, 2007 11:47 PM (0pZel)
13
"Our military presumably has the power to control the behavior of our soldiers, so it makes sense to complain about something that we can, at least nominally, have some influence over."
What are you thinking we should "complain about?" Do you think that the military could have prevented this? Do you think that the military somehow enabled this? Do you think that the military didn't prosecute this?
If, in fact, DePalma's point is to help prevent these sorts of atrocities in the future, then I'm guessing that the main focus of the movie would be on the heroes in the military justice system, who investigated this horrific act, prosecuted these animals, and sentenced them to terms long enough so that most of them won't be seeing the outside of a jail cell until well after their 100th birthdays.
Somehow, I'm skeptical that that is, in fact, the focus.
Especially since DePalma says that his intention is to "use the pictures to stop the war." The pictures can only do that if he is somehow claiming that it's the war itself, i.e. the US military, that is responsible for this rape/murder. That, in other words, these sorts of things are a consequence of "Bush's War," rather than the horrendous acts of individuals, and that, therefore, the individuals who committed this crime are somehow, themselves, victims of the evil military, or the evil administration.
Crimes like these cannot be 100% prevented in any instance, under any circumstance, civilian or military. With more than 1 million troops having been deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan (http://www.ips-dc.org/iraq/quagmire/), a few really sick, twisted animals must be among the bunch, no matter how well screened and trained they are. So, in other words, if Bush hadn't sent these individuals to Iraq, there's no reason to doubt that they would have committed this or a similar act in Germany, or Okinawa, or Cleveland, or wherever they would otherwise have been living. Would it still have been worth making a movie about?
Posted by: notropis at September 01, 2007 12:10 AM (zr8/n)
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The pictures are what will stop the war
If only it were so! Quite to the contrary the most the pictures can accomplish is to end the U. S. involvement in the war. 90% of the casualties and 99.9% of the atrocities have been perpetrated by people who aren't Americans.
There are people of good will who honestly believe that the entirety of what's going on is a war of national liberation and that when the Americans leave, the war will end. I respectfully disagree and suggest that this scenario corresponds to no credible theory of human behavior. If the Americans leave before the war is over, the war will go on merrily without them. There just won't be anybody in Iraq with the will or ability to prevent the worst possible effects from taking place.
Posted by: Dave Schuler at September 01, 2007 08:03 AM (Umeaf)
15
Brian DePalma is another burned out 1960s hippie. The irony here is that if there were a Teheran Film Festival, he would be hiding in a loft in Fresno, the subject of a fatwa.
Posted by: arch at September 01, 2007 09:22 AM (T4pTu)
16
Ever heard of paragraphs? Of course I shouldn't expect much from a vicious military hater like yourself.
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at September 01, 2007 01:36 PM (wUvEV)
17
I wish I could write this up well. I tried blogging it, but lost the train of thought...Here is the pot shot version:
Do you remember the big debate around 9/11 2002 about not showing the images of the planes flying into the towers or the towers coming down on the anniversary of the attacks?
They were "too traumatic" and it was better for our Western society to gain some closure, and not further demonize all Muslims, by showing those images again. And we didn't.
Now, we have Opus cartoons taking shots at radical Islamicists needing to be censored in order to not demonize, radical Islamicists? oh, no, just don't use the radicals to demonize all Muslims.
Using a few GIs to demonize the US military and ultimately the foundations of Western society, OK....that is progressive.....but not the Other...
I know I've lost a lot of people with the "foundations of Western society" bit, but it does fit together.
How many movies have come out about 9/11? Big block buster movies? Movies with the intense thriller aspects and expert, best of Hollywood direction along the lines of Spielburg's Munich???
8 anti-Iraq War II films in the pipe, but I guess stories about the carrying out of the 9/11 attacks or the horrific terror and agonizing deaths on 9/11/2001 aren't compelling enough......or maybe Hollywood cares so much about that event, they are waiting for something like the 10th anniversary to really pay tribute to the events of that day....
Getting the anti-Iraq War II stuff out is just easier and makes more sense...somehow...while holding back on 9/11 material also...somehow makes sense.
It is the same kind of sense that has movies like The Good Shepard made. Not too much of an overly political movie, but it has threads that tie it to the bigger picture - which is connected to why anti-war movies are the vogue and 9/11 movies are not....
A few times in De Niro's movie, they mention that fearful organizations like the CIA need (to manufacture fake) enemies to justify their power (and the bad things they do with it)...
He also had a scene that gave the argument that the Soviets were a hollow, rotting mammoth that "was never a threat, is not a threat, will never be a threat....."
The movie makers and we know that the rotting, bloated giant part turned out to be true, but not only did it not seem that way back then.....if you look at North Korea today....you can see how even an already collapsed, tiny state can.....still offer a terrible threat of doom due to its military size and the weapons it possess....Could the Soviet's have ever defeated the Allies? Were they ever strong enough to give it a go? It is immaterial when considering whether the threat was real or not. NK can't win a war, but it can still rain down hell on 10 million South Koreans alone living in Seoul....
But, these De Niro items in The Good Shepard are part of a trend that has been going on since before the end of the Cold War....and the objective is the same as De Palma and Hollywood on Iraq War II today AND their objective in avoiding stoking patrioticism-demonizing Muslims by not making 9/11 movies or movies that portray US soldiers in a good light....
As the Cold War was still going on, and since, segments of our society, mainly the intelligencia, have tried hard to down play the ill in the Others and play up the ills (real and imagined) in our own Western world.....
Look at the references to Dresden and fire bombing of Tokyo in literature and movies.....Try a movie I recently watched.....The Map of the Heart....
And on the flip side, I read recently, though I don't know the validity of the reporting, that the Brits are cutting out Churchill in new history textbooks to make room for other material.....but at the same time......Hitler and Nazi Germany is getting some "different perspectives" put in to help de-demonize the English view of Germans and Germany as a nation......
What we have here is the same battle going on for the hearts and minds of members of Western society.
The same battle that went on early in the 20th Century --- the battle to overcome the evils of capitalism and capitalistic society.
Is this the same as calling all these guys "communists" as we saw in the Cold War ideological battles?
No. At least the people that were openly leftists back then had an ideology they believed in...
Today.....we have the same types of people, even in some cases the same people, fighting the good fight.....they just lost any sense of an alternative with the end of the Cold War and the collapse of any hint of the Soviet-way as a viable alternative....
Today....the best they can do is Global Warming...
I know this all sounds far fetched...but think about it....
De Caprio (sp?) comes out with a GW movie and Hollywood wants to make Gore a secular saint. Big business is a constant target of the intelligencia and the pseudo-intellectuals of pop culture. And they also happen to have just pumped out a string of anti-war movies during a presidential election cycle.....
These are the same groups of people who argued the Soviets (and even the likes of North Korea) were viable alternatives to Western ills back in the day....
I mean, these are the same guys and girls who fawn over Michael Moore for going to Cuba to rave about its health care system.......
The desire is the same......they have been trying to bring about a reformation of Western society.
They do so by playing up its faults.
"Deconstructing" its "supposed" good qualities.
And by defending and shielding its enemies in various ways.
That is why Dresden naturally comes to mind for them when thinking about WWII (and not saving the world from fascism)....
That is why movies about Iraq War II demonizing American soldiers and Western governments is the right thing to do ---- and not movies about 9/11...
Posted by: usinkorea at September 01, 2007 04:23 PM (3mK4l)
18
"The Map of the Heart" should be "Map of the Human Heart" and the line about Michael Moore should have emphasized that these groups are STILL going to communist dictatorships to recuperate their image...
Posted by: usinkorea at September 01, 2007 04:30 PM (3mK4l)
19
"Quite to the contrary the most the pictures can accomplish is to end the U. S. involvement in the war. 90% of the casualties and 99.9% of the atrocities have been perpetrated by people who aren't Americans."
So true, and thanks for the correction/clarification to my post.
Posted by: notropis at September 01, 2007 05:26 PM (zr8/n)
20
He was one stoned slacker; Jeff Piccoli from Texas, not representative of the overwhelming
majority of US soldiers in Afghanistan 0r Iraq.
(Interestingly; Sean Penn friend to the Iranian mullahs, Katrina grandstander, and friend of Hugo
Chavez; was in "Casualties of War"
Posted by: narciso at September 01, 2007 06:27 PM (DMnkh)
21
Why wouldn't you want that broadcast far and wide?
De Palma will
have to omit the final act, because it would let the air out of the rest.
A proper documentary would necessarily include the trials and sentencing. He's not making a documentary though and has made no mention of including the trials and sentencing.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at September 01, 2007 10:44 PM (NiDeC)
22
De Palma will have to omit the final act, because it would let the air out of the rest.
Your reasoning doesn't make sense; the trial and sentencing would underscore the absolute wrongness of what he did.
Posted by: nunaim at September 02, 2007 07:53 AM (0K/xd)
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Guys:
Keep up the good work! Nobody has noticed one of my movies for over ten years. If you keep hacking away at it, you might just give me enough publicity to make this sucker break even.
Posted by: Brian De Palma at September 02, 2007 07:56 AM (0K/xd)
24
Well, if were going to use the actions of a very, very tiny, insignificant minority to smear an entire group/policy, I guess we can do an movie on mistress murdering drunk Teddy Kennedy as a commentary on all liberal Democrats.
Posted by: TMF at September 02, 2007 12:06 PM (+Ac3z)
25
Or a movie on philandering, perjuring, lying to the face of the American people, justice obstructing William Clinton as a commentary on Hillary.
You get the picture
These guys did a horrible thing- the type of thing, sadly, that happens with similar frequency amongst the civilian population here in the US every day.
This movie is a piece of propagandist garbage that would make DePalmas proteges in the SS proud.
Posted by: TMF at September 02, 2007 12:08 PM (+Ac3z)
26
I guess we can do an movie on mistress murdering drunk Teddy Kennedy as a commentary on all liberal Democrats....Or a movie on philandering, perjuring, lying to the face of the American people, justice obstructing William Clinton
Go for it, dude! If the Lewinsky BJ scene is graphic enough, I may even buy a ticket.
Posted by: nunaim at September 02, 2007 02:46 PM (0K/xd)
27
I do not believe Americans are free to say and do whatever they want. The thought of anarchy in a system of law in contradictory. War is hell, and war is ugly. America and England have gone far beyond any normal call for civility during war, investigating everything. When will the propagandists be held accountable? When will the American people demand this garbage stop?
Posted by: Mekan at September 02, 2007 04:09 PM (mzFPd)
28
Confederate Yankee, you refer to Casualties of War as "fiction."
You might want to rethink that charge. The rape-murder portrayed in Casualties of War most certainly took place in 1966 during a five-man recon patrol mounted by a battalion from the 1st Cavalry Division.
Now, I'll grant that the movie version is overly dramatic and involves much more combat than actually occurred during the incident in question.
I'll also grant that the rape-murder portrayed in Casualties of War cannot stand as a representational portrait of the American grunt in Vietnam. Certainly, such incidents were few and far between.
But there is no doubt that rape-murders did take place during the war, and the one portrayed in Casualties of War is based on actual court-martial testimony and interviews with the one soldier of five who refused to participate.
In other words, you use the word "fiction" in a most disingenuous manner.
Posted by: PITA at September 02, 2007 05:19 PM (2MwpW)
29
At least "Casualties of War" had a trial.
Posted by: davod at September 03, 2007 01:28 PM (llh3A)
30
De Palma will omit the "final act", i.e., the trial and imprisonment of the perpetrators, because that would nullify the entire purpose of the movie-- to demonize the U.S. military. Which means he is a propagandist for the enemy of the lowest order. In WW2 he would have been prosecuted for sedition and shot for treason. But that was before our country became infested with Liberals. They will be the downfall of America. They are the barbarians within the gates.
Posted by: Carlos at September 03, 2007 01:39 PM (z1gkf)
31
DePalma certainly included the trial and imprisonment of the offenders in his previous Casualties of War..... a movie which CY still seems to consider "fiction."
Posted by: PITA at September 03, 2007 09:49 PM (2MwpW)
32
Hmmmm.
What's worse is that this is supposed to be a documentary/fiction. Which means that they'll include just enough fact to make it somewhat credible but then blow it up as much as possible.
And that Mark Cuban is involved is something of a disgrace as well.
Posted by: memomachine at September 04, 2007 10:55 AM (3pvQO)
33
Confederate Yankee, do you mind if I ask for a third time why you refer to Casualties of War as "fiction," when, in fact, the rape-murder portrayed took place in November of '66, and was carried out by four of five members of a recon patrol from the 1st Cavalry Division?
That fifth member of the patrol who refused to participate in the rape-murder, and who was ignored by the chain of command when he tried to report the incident, and who was immediately transferred out of his rifle company (for fear his comrades might retaliate against such a "gook-lover") also saw several other atrocities committed by his fellow grunts during other patrols. He also saw evidence of Viet Cong atrocities against civilians.
All of this was documented decades ago in the book Casualties of War by Daniel Lang.
Why do you pretend otherwise?
Posted by: PITA at September 04, 2007 03:42 PM (2MwpW)
34
PITA, the movie
Casualties of War was a movie directed by Brian De Palma, based up a script written by David Rabe, which in turn was based upon Daniel Lang's article in
The New Yorker, which in turn, was inspired by a true event.
Further Rabe was irritated with what De Palma did to his script, further fictonalizing and stylizing it into what Vietnam correspondent and feminist Frances Fitzgerald, called "a sadoporn flick coated with sentimentality and laced with every cliche of the Vietnam War."
There is a
reason this film wasn't called a documentary, junior.
"Casualties" is based upon a true story, but as anyone over Barney-watching age
should know, that isn't remotely the same thing as reality.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 04, 2007 07:14 PM (HcgFD)
35
Junior? Barney-watching age? What gives with the down-your-nose rudeness, Confederate Yankee?
Here's the deal: "Casualties of War" is a typical over-the-top DePalma movie with some invented combat scenes, and an invented attempted-fragging scene.
The movie is entirely accurate, however, in two key regards: the gang-rape and murder of the girl kidnapped by the recon patrol (it was every bit as brutal and bloody as portrayed on the screen); and the attempted cover-up of the incident by the chain of command (platoon leader and company commander, as shown in the movie, and battalion commander, too, as noted in a book written by the chaplain who finally reported the incident to division headquarters).
So, again, why the charge that the movie is "fiction"?
Unrepresentational of the American grunt experience in Vietnam? Yes. Fiction? Afraid not.
Posted by: PITA at September 04, 2007 09:32 PM (2MwpW)
36
PITA,
While I'm not the expert that you obviously are on this particular incident, I would still make the argument that the fictionalization of the real events (the "Hollywood" type combat scenes and fake latrine fragging attempt come to mind) to serve a "larger truth" are inaccurate enough to warrant calling the film fiction, even if key elements of the film was based upon real events.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 04, 2007 09:44 PM (HcgFD)
37
Well, fair enough, CY. I think we can agree on this: there's never been a movie about Vietnam, no matter what the political agenda, that did not fictionalize certain key aspects of the story.
And that's really too bad.
Put all the Vietnam movies in a blender (from The Green Berets to Platoon), and the viewer might get an accurate impression of how the war was really a hundred different wars, depending on when, where, and with what unit a soldier served.
Enough of my rambling.
Posted by: PITA at September 04, 2007 10:08 PM (2MwpW)
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I accidentally put this comment in another post....
DePalma is a hack. He completely ruined The Black Dahlia. The pretentious little documentary about the killing that he stuck onto the DVD of that movie is laughable, no matter how gory. His fondness for such bloody fare makes me wonder if doing films like Redacted allows him to have his cake and eat it, too--in that he can satisfy his fondness for sadism even as he feigns outrage. Pervert actually means something, sometimes.
Posted by: clazy at September 04, 2007 10:48 PM (SI8Da)
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De Palma is a crappy director, used to be good but now he's lost it. However I have no problem with someone making a film about this incident. Iraq is not the same as WWII. In WWII an imperial power, germany, was the invader. Here America is the invader, and has a duty of care towards the Iraqi people - whose country they have demolished. America is not like germany in WWII, not a fascist nazi state. However in order that it never becomes one, incidents like the rape and murder of this girl and her parents must be exposed. Only by holding onesself to a higher standard can one hope to achieve that standard.
To crtiticise the filmaker for making a film about something that REALLY happened is moral cowardice. It DID happen . It IS a crime. It must NOT happen again. Covering it up, or hiding these things behind operational imperatives ensures that these rapes and murders are more likely to happen.
In vietnam we saw footage of the horrific things being done to the people of vietnam. The chemical weapons used on them, the napalm. The destroyed villages, the massacres of civilians. These images helped bring what was an unjust and unecessary war to an end. however NO SUCH FOOTAGE of iraq is being shown. No bodybags are shown of the young men sent to die in Iraq - why not? No combat footage is being shown on the news - why not? How is hiding the war from the public serving the troops?
Posted by: Wisdo at September 05, 2007 04:45 AM (gwSD/)
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If I may extend the eating analogy, Wisdo, Hollywood is like a neurotic who will eat nothing but orange food, and Depalma is the man who makes cheese puffs.
Posted by: clazy at September 05, 2007 08:44 AM (EWsFM)
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Friday Stupid
I didn't post anything yesterday because I've got separate investigations going on at once that I'm trying to stay on top of, and I have the honor of providing a noted photojournalism expert with material for a photoethics speech he's giving overseas in October.
Since I haven't been giving you real content, here's some "Friday Stupid" to keep you entertained.
Only you can prevent forest fires:
I'll see if I can dig in and provide you with something more substantial (and less drafty) later today.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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That is just SO wrong! BWAH-HAAA-HA-HA-HA..... (So I'm still juvenile at heart. Sue me.)
Posted by: Ric James at August 31, 2007 07:56 AM (AS/pd)
Posted by: Dusty at August 31, 2007 10:43 AM (1Lzs1)
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Okay, I watched it. Cute chipmunk, but it would have been nice if the advertising firm had consulted someone before portraying a chipmunk as a tree dwelling rodent.
Posted by: Dusty at August 31, 2007 11:06 AM (1Lzs1)
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Since I didn't know the product I was waiting to see how massive amounts of methane would put out a forest fire ... Oh, farts are icy cold ... ahh, ok.
Cute, but ... duh.
Posted by: DoorHold at September 02, 2007 11:34 AM (qWgCU)
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I love it!
But then, I do like to tell my wife I was born to fart.
Posted by: Randy Rager at September 02, 2007 08:39 PM (hngM7)
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Oooooooh - "investigations"!
I'll just bet it involves many, many hours in a lot of different public restrooms...
Posted by: dave™© at September 02, 2007 11:24 PM (ysvZa)
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August 29, 2007
The Big Picture(s)
Quite frankly, this is perhaps one of the more comprehensive explanations of the media's failures in covering the Iraq War that I've seen to date. Brilliantly written, and painstakingly documented, is is an indictment of why our media has failed and continues to fail us in their reporting from Iraq.
The Big Picture(s).
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Karl has done an outstanding job and a great service with that post.
Posted by: Pablo at August 29, 2007 09:01 PM (yTndK)
2
Good thing the leaked GAO report confirms just how swell everything is in Iraq. Choke on that, stupid lyin' liberul MSM!
Posted by: The Voice of Reason at August 30, 2007 09:57 PM (K1Emm)
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Rebuilding New Orleans: A Continuing Mistake
Two years ago today, Hurricane Katrina made landfall near Buras-Triumph, Louisiana as a large Category 3 storm. While parts of coastal Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama suffered the onslaught of the storm's surging waves and wind, most of the world's attention was paid, and is still being paid, to the City of New Orleans, where dozens of levee failures flooded most of the city.
More than 1,800 people were confirmed killed by Hurricane Katrina or in its wake, with 705 still missing, according to Wikipedia.
Literally millions of words have been written ascribing blame for the human failures that contributed to the loss of lives and property brought by this hurricane. The blame and blame-shifting continues to this day, and will be echoed, no doubt, long after the second-hand memories of the storm fade.
But this is not a post about past culpabilities, but those mistakes we are currently making in our all-too-human arrogance as we try to reclaim a disaster.
This is map of what the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers expected the Louisiana coastline to look like in 50 years, prior to the massive erosion and seafloor damage caused by Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, and also before the current fervor over global warming began predicting significant sea-level rise. The effects of Katrina and Rita have obviously shortened this timeline, and any sea-level rise that occurs will only hasten the demise of the city known as the Big Easy which is being killed, not protected, by the very levees and dikes that politicians seem so eager to keep building and rebuilding. Experts at LSU predict that the delta protecting New Orleans from a hungry Gulf of Mexico will be gone by 2090.
Several days ago, Presidential candidate Barack Obama unwittingly cited an appropriate passage from the Bible, even though, like most politicians, he drew exactly the wrong conclusions from the scripture he noted:
"Getting ready to talk to you today, I recall what Jesus said at the end of the Sermon on the Mount," Obama said at New Orleans' First Emmanuel Baptist Church. "He said, whoever hears these sayings of mine and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on a rock."
"The rains descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house. But it did not fall, because it was founded on the rock," he continued.
Most foundations and cities in America are built on rock, clay, or similarly durable soils, while New Orleans exemplifies the agonizing reality of the other house in that parable, the one that Obama didn't mention... that one made by foolish builders upon the sand, as noted in Matthew 7:24-27:
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
The shattered fool's house in Matthew was built upon the sand.
New Orleans is built upon an even more unstable soil, silt, that is constantly compacting and sinking. What's more, that sinking, unstable soil is in a bowl below sea-level surrounded by the Mississippi River, the Gulf of Mexico, and Lake Pontchartrain, bodies of water that are eating away the coastline at a rate of 25 square miles or more each year.
In September of 2005, I interviewed a geologist who was the former Dean of his southern university's Coastal and Marine Studies program. His closing, unsolicited recommendation was that New Orleans "should be largely abandoned as a city."
New Orleans is doomed city, a geographical mistake destined to fall to geologic and hydraulic forces beyond our control. It is sad they we are too arrogant to concede this failed city to the sea, and seem destined to waste the billions of dollars that could be spent moving the inhabitants to higher ground.
Instead we seem intent on enticing back the poor and the destitute with promises of rebuilding what should not be rebuilt, just to put their lives in danger once more.
8/31 Update: Over at Reason, Steve Chapman is on the same page:
Before the nation undertakes the extravagant project of rebuilding New Orleans and securing it from the elements, we might ask if there isn't a better option, not only for the nation but for the flood victims.
The Democratic debate over the future of New Orleans somehow passed over the instructive example of Valmeyer, Ill. In 1993, the town of 900 was swamped, not for the first time, by a rain-swollen Mississippi River. It hasn't been swamped since, because it's not there anymore. Rather than remain in a vulnerable spot, the residents voted to relocate their village to a bluff 400 feet above the river.
But no one wants to suggest similar discretion in Louisiana.
New Orleans, like Valmeyer, had long been a natural disaster waiting to happen. Most of the city lies below sea level, surrounded by water on three sides, and it's sinking. On top of that, it's steadily grown more exposed to hurricanes, thanks to the loss of coastal wetlands that once served as a buffer. It's a bathtub waiting to be filled.
As one scientist said after Katrina, "A city should never have been built there in the first place." Now that we have a chance to correct the mistake, why repeat it?
Gee, that sounds familiar.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I can't believe that people still want to send money down here.
First, our politicians will take every bit of it. They might build something that looks adequate for its purpose, but the expense will be at least 5 times over cost and then the structure will fall apart in a few years.
Second, New Orleans is under water as you said. It is a swamp that is merging with the ocean. It is gone. There is nothing remotely cultural about keeping it alive with expensive projects. The city had begun to die in the 70's and this hurricane only completed the death process.
Third, if you bring those people from the 9th ward back here, Louisiana will never progress. They consistently voted Dem. and any give away program that could be thought of. I think the real reason that other states want to rebuild NO is to get the refugees out of there towns. Any where they have gone there has been trouble.
Posted by: David Caskey,MD at August 29, 2007 09:58 AM (G5i3t)
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Trackbacked by The Thunder Run -
Web Reconnaissance for 08/29/2007
A short recon of whatÂ’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.
Posted by: David M at August 29, 2007 10:20 AM (gIAM9)
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If Katrina hadn't destroyed NO, NPR would have had a dearth of commentary-disguised-as-news over the last 2 years. Just about every week there is an interview with some unfortunate soul who is still waiting for a handout, a slow banjo playing in the background in pathetic sympathy. The communities that have rebuilt themselves (in particular, the Korean Christian community) are for the most part relegated to a fleeting comment.
Today was particularly bad. It seemed every single show (even Marketplace) had some sort of Katrina angle thrown in, with no end to the interviewees trotted out with sly (and not-so-sly) digs at Bush. They also bemoaned that it looks like Louisiana will elect a Republican governor since Blanco was so inept. Although they did note that the tards in New Orleans re-elected the King Tard Nagin.
Posted by: negentropy at August 29, 2007 11:08 AM (27KAF)
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If you recall, shortly after the hurricane, the people at the Super Dome were asking "who is going to take care of me now". That is the over rideing theme with these people. They can not do at thing for themselves, the government has made sure of that. If, by some miracle, they were provided with houses in NO, they would still not move from their current location at that would take too much effort. I know this as I have to work with these people every day.
As to Nagan, he is the choice of the white business men in the city. He was chosen due to their ability to manuplate him. Any of the other choices would have been horrible. It shows you what we have to work with in terms of leadership down here. All a politician has to do is promise a social program and he is immediately in.
Posted by: David Caskey,MD at August 29, 2007 11:17 AM (G5i3t)
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I know this is a bit off point but "Katrina made landfall near Buras-Triumph, Louisiana as a large Category 3 storm"
NOT says Paul: http://wizbangblog.com/content/2007/08/29/the-katrina-video-congress-didnt-want-you-to-see-ii.php
It's long but the most in depth piece i've seen.
Posted by: markm at August 29, 2007 12:37 PM (hVOTO)
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To be honest, I don't care about NO too much one way or the other. It does seem odd, though, that in this day of global warming politics, that there are _any_ politicians on the left who are in favor of doing anything other than abandoning NO as a city. How idiotic _is_ it to be truly concerned that sea levels are going to rise by 1-? meters and still want to rebuild a city that is already below sea level? It really falls into the "are you lying now or were you lying then" category.
Posted by: suek at August 29, 2007 06:06 PM (9yDpm)
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Damned fine point, suek.
Better we should save Gaia than NOLA.
Posted by: Pablo at August 29, 2007 09:04 PM (yTndK)
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The adage that those who learn nothing from their mistakes are destine to repeat them seems appropriate here.
Posted by: czekmark at August 29, 2007 10:09 PM (5Jrbj)
Posted by: ahem at August 30, 2007 10:48 AM (dS04S)
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ahem, who is that comment directed towards?
You're making a completely irrelevant, and frankly stupid argument is you are attempting to equate New Orleans with Greensburg. Greensburg was felled by a meteorological possibility; New Orleans is facing a geological certainty.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 30, 2007 11:18 AM (0BhZ5)
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Ahem's comment misses the mark, but not by much. Hurricanes regularly rip various parts of Florida. The feds pony up millions/billions in aid, things get rebuilt, and nobody seems bothered by it. A few years go by, and the sames places get smacked again, and again: federal aid, rebuilding, life goes on. All around the world, cities are built in geographically unfortunate places. New Orleans was located where it was for a good reason.
The only difference is the political will to protect a place. The Dutch live below sea level; they simply spend the money required to make it possible.
New Orleans drowned because the federal government failed it. The wetlands could be reclaimed; the levess could be proplerly built, and New Orleans could continue. Unfortunately, in the current climate, where Grover Norquist wants a federal govt that can "be drowned in a bathtub", this is not the solution that people want to hear. So, instead, we've chosen to abandon an American city, which just happened to be one of the great cities of the world. I'd prefer not to think that racism is involved, but it's hard to come to any other conclusion.
Posted by: montysano at August 30, 2007 12:09 PM (QQhMz)
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Obviously, no one here has ever understood what New Orleans was to the people that lived there. Grandstanding about how the land is eroding is just insensitive and stupid. New Orleans was and still remains one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the United States. It's one of the few cities recognized worldwide for it's contributions to culture, art and music. It's very easy as someone that doesn't understand living in a place like New Orleans to just dismiss it and call those that love it idiots for wanting to be there, but what this really comes down to is not supporting a city that's eventually going to sink anyways, but supporting a population that chooses to live in a part of the U.S. The earlier comment about Greensburg was dismissed because it isn't inevitable that the land there will constantly be destroyed, but it is constantly destroyed year after year by that so called meteorological possibility. The people of California don't get lambasted every time an earthquake happens do they? No one says L.A. should be abandoned, so why does that argument come so easy for LA? Face it, New Orleanians are going to stay there, they're going to rebuild and their going to continue to raise issues about how federal response to real problems is far more important than pet wars created by a President with too much power.
Posted by: dr4lom at August 30, 2007 12:13 PM (H/epk)
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Confederate Yankee,
I'm completely amazed that I could be reading your blog all this time and not realize you had such opinions on N.O. Attitudes such as yours truly scare me and make me wonder what country I live in. Contrary to what you may think of People who live in or near N.O. we are intelligent and realize the lack of respect we have from the rest of our great nation. The problem is all you can think of is 'my tax dollars'. Well, in order to bring N.O. to Cat 5 levees it may cost each person in this country $5 over 30 years. Problem is if N.O. gets this, everyone wants their share. I have yet to see scientific proof that the end is only 80 years away not one frustrated LSU prof. I think if you reviewed all the evidence from multiple sources, you'll see that there are workable plans to rebuild the wetlands that have been robbed from us by the oil companies and other interest. I could go on, but your selfish and indiscriminant attitude makes me feel sorry for anyone in this nation that suffers from the next calamity.
Posted by: DwnSth at August 30, 2007 12:47 PM (Jr0+0)
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While we're at it, let's get rid of the critical path for midwest grain shipments, crude oil, coffee imports, rubber imports, steel...hell, you name it. I mean, New Orleans is only the largest inland port in the U.S. and one of the top five largest ports in the country period.
Moron.
The Federal Government has to spend so much on New Orleans because without that city, we wouldn't be able to ship any grain, coal, or a multitude of other things out of the country or to the lower half of the nation.
Posted by: Marquis de Lafayette at August 30, 2007 01:11 PM (ODRQI)
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"if you bring those people from the 9th ward back here"
Those people = the blacks. That's what you mean, right? I can hear the lowering of your voice, good Dr., as you intone "those people". The wrong side of the tracks. The wrong side of the canal. The wrong skin color. The wrong attitude. I grew up in the south. I know exactly what you mean.
You do know that over 60% of the homes in the ninth ward were owned by the people who lived in them, right? I think you'd be awfully hard-pressed to find that rate of home ownership in any lilly-white Baton Rouge suburb.
Posted by: Marquis De Sade at August 30, 2007 01:20 PM (ODRQI)
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Dr. Caskey:
Stop using the university's resources to post racist comments on web boards, and report to my office. We're taking your purple and gold confederate flag away.
Posted by: Sean O' Keefe at August 30, 2007 01:29 PM (ODRQI)
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I see that Sadly No! is once again sending over the smug but ignorant. As none of you have apparently any knowledge of geology or coastal and marine studies, let me pass on a few bits of knowledge.
The Dutch have reclaimed land from the sea, and have done a marvelous engineering job in doing so, but the geology of Holland is completely different than that of New Orleans, which is built upon a bed of ever-compacting alluvial silt.
The fact of the matter is that the practice of building levees and dikes in Louisiana has choked off the delta region's supply of silt. Instead of seasonal flooding leaving sediments to replenish the ever-compacting delta silt below it, the Mississippi's sediments are instead ejected into the Gulf of Mexico and dispersed. Mankind, in attempting to control the river's course and flooding, has interfered with and largely destroyed the only natural mechanism the delta has of replenishment.
In addition, if we are leaving the current interglacial period and entering a period where we can expect sea level to rise as many suggest (hello, global warming), this problem is only going to be exacerbated as rising seas more rapidly encroach upon the protective marshes.
There is precisely one way, and one way only, to even hope of rebuilding the Mississippi delta and the marshes that protect it, and that is to eliminate the levee system, and allow the river to flood, deposit replenishing sediments, and chart its own course. That, of course, will not happen, because politics is getting in the way of sound science. For these replenishment practices to work, the levee system that protects New Orleans and guides the path of the river must be removed.
We know that river deltas replenish themselves through sediments deposited through seasonal flooding, and that is the same the world over, on all continents. When sediments are not deposited, the natural effects of erosion and compression still apply to the land where the waters are no longer allowed to reach. When you starve a delta from the sediments that built it, it will erode and compact away. This is why New Orleans will die.
This is far more than a matter of political will.
Further, New Orleans will drown because the silt-based soils in the area will not, and cannot be relied upon to hold. The soilbed simply lacks the cohesive physical properties it needs to hold together, which is precisely why these levees failed before they were overtopped. They were undermined, from the base. If you spend tens of billions of dollars (and probably closer to the trillions) to build systems comparable to those of Holland, the system will still fail; no known system build up such a weak foundation will be resistant to intrusion, undermining, and eventual collapse.
The attempted resurrection of New Orleans is based upon current political realities, and is perhaps inevitable as a result of human arrogance. When the city is swept underwater once more, and once more, several thousand people (and hopefully no more) are once again listed as dead or missing, perhaps weÂ’ll start listening to the real scientists, instead of social scientists, for the proper solutions.
WeÂ’re relocated flood-prone cities before, and that is the responsible course of action here. It makes for more sense to move the port further up the river beyond the alluvial fan if at all possible, than continue to poor more money into building levees that only compound the problem and promise a great catastrophe and loss of life in the future.
dr4lom, IÂ’m not making any sort of cultural judgments about the people or sociology of New Orleans, IÂ’m simply basing recommendations upon what scientists at LSU, the Corps of Engineers, and other coastal and marine studies programs have already established about the mechanisms of how the geology, hydrology, biology, and oceanography of the area are understood to work.
No one disputes the unique cultural or artistic contributions New Orleans has made to our society. Nor does anyone have any trouble at all understanding why so many would love such a unique culture.
What we have to concern ourselves with, however, is pragmatism. At what point does it become far more advisable to attempt to move the people, the port, and the culture, than watch it all get swept away in one savage stroke?
It seems to me that many people are far more interested in using the people of New Orleans as political pawns than anything else. Republicans want to help them rebuild so that they can claim some sort of moral high ground; Democrats claim Republicans arenÂ’t rebuilding fast enough so they can claim the moral high ground.
Neither side seems to have enough sense
to move the people themselves to high ground.
As a result, one day, in this year or another, New Orleans will once again see thousands of people die when the levees once again fail. It is sad that these additional thousands—most of them the poor and impoverished, no doubt—will have to die before people will finally start thinking that relocation is the best way to preserve their culture and their lives from a sinking land at the mouth of a hungry sea.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 30, 2007 01:47 PM (0BhZ5)
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I don't know what else to say Confederate Yankee. Since you are obviously a geologist and wetlands expert (I hope you're not spouting ideas you may have simply read) then I cannot argue. On the other hand, I would like to see you host a true group of true experts both local and international to see what they have to say. Again, your ignorance is amazing and sad. Sorry C.Y. I'm done with you 'reveling the truth in media'. You're a sham!
Posted by: DwnSth at August 30, 2007 02:21 PM (Jr0+0)
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I never claimed to be a geologist or wetlands "expert" by any stretch of the imagination. I took geography and oceanography courses before declaring my undergraduate degee, and retain enough from those classes to understand the basic mechanisms involved, but that is all, other than what I've gleaned from readily accessible scientific studies and an interview I've done with a
real expert.
I've yet to encounter a single scientist or paper that suggests New Orleans has long-term viability. Should you be able to provide links to a scientist who does, I'd be quite interested in reading his research and conclusions. I suspect you can't readily do that, and that you've let your emotions get in the way of logic.
I've invited experts to discuss the topic previously, sending out email to close to two dozen experts in related research, two years ago when I first wrote about the subject.
Only two replied. As I recall, one replied only to state that no scientist in his right mind would touch the issue because of the political angle, and the other was the one expert who shared his thoughts only under the cover of anonymity, for precisely those same concerns.
If you are so certain that New Orleans can be saved, please provide a practical solution.
I'm sure we'd all appreciate it.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 30, 2007 02:41 PM (0BhZ5)
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Since you are a supposed advocate of fact finding, I will be researching my contacts within the accedimic and professional field in order to provide a valid and meaniful response. I would invite others to pursue the same so we can all compare notes.
Posted by: DwnSth at August 30, 2007 03:02 PM (Jr0+0)
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By all means, please do so.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 30, 2007 03:07 PM (0BhZ5)
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I've yet to encounter a single scientist or paper that suggests New Orleans has long-term viability.
Ummm...... Ivor van Heerden from the LSU Hurrican Center would be one. You're often sloppy with your sources, CY. I'm certainly not aware of some great chorus of scientists who advocate abandoning NO.
If you are so certain that New Orleans can be saved, please provide a practical solution.
Today? Right now? Get the levees built, get 'em built right, get 'em built now. I hate to put it in these terms, but the numbers I've seen quoted for the cost of the levee system, and for wetland reclamation, are essentially equal to a couple of months in Iraq.
To suggest that we abandon an American city based on what may happen some decades hence seems to me to be the most slippery of slopes.
Posted by: montysano at August 30, 2007 03:10 PM (QQhMz)
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Very good, Monty, you've produced the name of a one scientist, and even one who has published a book. I stand corrected: I am now aware of a single scientist that states as a matter of policy that he thinks that New Orleans should be rebuilt. I'm sure there are more that feel precisely the same way.
I'll contact Dr. van Heerden. I have some very specific questions to ask him.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 30, 2007 03:31 PM (0BhZ5)
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What's missing in that picture is your decency.
Posted by: Nimrod Gently at August 30, 2007 03:49 PM (LGz0B)
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CY: if you read the lede of that link I posted, you'll note that Greensburg, KS had been counting its luck in tornado alley for many years. Now will you spare the mock scorn and say whether it's worth your federal tax dollars?
There are many, many places in the US that fail your test. The history of settlements shows that they often flourish in spite of environmental risks for the advantages the afford. Rivers flood; coastal areas are hit by storms and are subject to erosion. The French weren't being capricious in 1718, and neither was Jefferson in 1803.
So why can't I help thinking that those condemning NOLA would shrug and play amateur seismologist were the Big One to hit San Francisco, but would somehow morph into amateur meteorological statisticians to spare those small-town dwellers who finally crapped out in tornado alley, or would sigh and nod at their federal tax dollars going to
drought-affected farmers?
Posted by: ahem at August 30, 2007 04:29 PM (dS04S)
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ahem, perhaps I need to type slower so you'll be able to catch up, and understand something very basic: New Orleans will probably not exist in 50 years. The land on which it resides
will cease to exist.
All the other places you mention can suffer temporary disasters of varying intensity, from which they can recover and perhaps not experience another such calamity for generations.
Becoming part of the Gulf of Mexico?
Rather permanent.
Of course, you don't have to ask me... ask the residents of Indianola, once the second largest port in Texas.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 30, 2007 07:18 PM (HcgFD)
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CY, perhaps you need to think a bit slower! Odd how you go after posters who question your opinion. Back in 2006 wasn't it you who said to the Washington Post "Whether you are a Pulitzer-winning journalist or a Weblog Award nominee, your value comes from your credibility and your ability to substantiate what you say, and your ability to admit and correct mistakes."
What you didn't say was how grudgingly you admit mistakes (your response to montysanto).
Rather than citing one 'credible' source perhaps you can give names and dates for your resources. I've reviewed your body of investigative journalism and it leaves a bit to be desired as far as this debate goes. What's your stance on global warming. Do you buy into that myth also? You can sit on your bully pulpit and spout whatever nonsense you wish. Put some of that myth-busting bad reporting research to good use and give us some backup for this view from a misguided northerner stuck in the south. By the way, my investigation continues and unlike you I have to do this on my own time. Back to the Washington Post, you said "I try to establish credibility by doing research the reader may not have time to conduct on his own". I say prove that statement.
Posted by: DwnSth at August 30, 2007 10:23 PM (Jr0+0)
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DwnSth - Montysano provides a very good analogy to your query on global warming in his comment at 3:10:
"To suggest that we abandon an American city based on what may happen some decades hence seems to me to be the most slippery of slopes."
Essentially the AGW types are suggesting we radically alter our behavior, change our economies, and spend untold billions of dollars on what is essentially junk "science." The purported consensus doesn't exist and more debunking of supposed evidence is making it through the media and academic censorship filter all the time now. I can't answer for CY, but any rational person should be able to determine that based on the manipulated evidence and debunked evidence produced to date and the small amount of green house gasses produced by mankind relative to the overall total, AGW is a religion, a cult, not a science. Follow the money.
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 30, 2007 10:42 PM (0pZel)
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I would also venture to say that there is a much better body of science on the study of coastal erosion and marshes than AGW.
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 30, 2007 10:47 PM (0pZel)
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DwnSth, I'll admit mistakes when I know I've made them. To date, I've seen not the first bit of documentation provided to show that I'm incorrect here, while I've linked the sources I drew from in the article. I'm hearing whining, but seeing no facts.
Global warming is not a myth; we've know for some time we're coming out of an interglacial period. What no one knows conclusively is if mankind has had any impact on this. The data sure doesn't support that conclusion at this time, where it seems solar activity may be more responsible.
Just for kicks, I've contacted 58--almost five dozen--scientists from relevant disciplines. We'll see what those who respond have to say next week, but I already have one response, from a Research Specialist at the Division of Nearshore Research, Texas A&M University - Corpus Christi.
His response was that he agree that we should move everyone out of New Orleans and not let it be rebuilt.
I'll post whatever other responses I get midweek next week, as we are entering a holiday weekend, and I'm still working on two other investigations that I find far more interesting.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 31, 2007 12:11 AM (HcgFD)
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CY, like you have sent out many queries and received back few. From Dean at LSU School of Coast and Environment:
Whether you feel New Orleans is worth rebuilding depends very much on the timeframe you are concerned about. If you are concerned about the next 50 years, then it probably makes sense. If you are looking 500 years into the future, then it probably does not.
There's more to this response but that can wait until next week.
Again, the science of NOLA being part of the Gulf in 80 years is what I'm questioning here. If the science is there then fine, let's put our vast national resources to work and move it somewhere (not really sure how that would work). If it's 200 or 300 years out, let's fix what's there, protect the people and have real thought on how to handle the situation over a long term.
BTW, this research stuff is kinda fun. I can see why you've made a career out of it.
Have a great Labor Day weekend! I'll be in my new FEMA funded pool (Just kidding, FEMA is always good for a laugh around here).
Posted by: DwnSth at August 31, 2007 08:02 AM (Jr0+0)
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CY,
I think if you read the uniformed, illogical, mean comments by those on this thread that have been arguing with you, then you will understand the personality of NO. This is how the whole city acts. I lived there for 4 years and they are some of the meanest, most ignorant people on earth.
As to my bigoted statements. If you look at the population of the 9th ward you will find that it is made up of both races. Both act in consort as a liberal voting block that sells its vote to whatever liberal offers the most "give me" social programs at the expense of the rich (those who make any money in Louisiana).
Your assessment of the loss of wet lands and is correct and it has nothing to do with the "oil companies". This loss was the product of government action that began in the early 1900's and thinking individuals warned against it at that time. But true to form, our government felt that "something had to be done" to combat periodic flooding of low areas and this was an excellent way to accomplish that goal and steal from the taxpayer all at the same time.
I might pass on a conversation I recently had with a lawyer from NO. He said that his prominent neighborhood still did not have appropriate sewage removal. Daily a truck is brought in by the government and hooked to the lines. If is then removed and replaced by another truck the following day. The reason the main lines can not be fixed is that FEMA can not decide if the damage to the lines was due to the hurricane or aging. They worked well before the hurricane. That is the mentality we deal with.
Posted by: David Caskey at August 31, 2007 09:24 AM (G5i3t)
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A man of reason studies an issue carefully and closely; consults with experts; gathers and weighs evidence; arrives at a logical conclusion; puts pen to paper; writes with clarity; dots every I and crosses every T to craft a seamless blog entry.
He is not worried about falsifiability tests because he wants to get things right, to see the world correctly. He just gets aggravated about all the out-of-the-woodwork crack brained lunatics (like Marquis de Sade, ahem, DwnSth...) who answer rational discourse with inchoate "feelings" and shameless dishonesty (non-stop fallacies and tricks of rhetoric).
Posted by: Janes Randi Rocks at August 31, 2007 10:34 AM (6MeZY)
34
The credibility of this site would be greatly enhanced if you could demonstrate that you knew what a liberal was -- but, then you would have to confront the awful truth that YOU are liberals and I doubt you can handle the truth.
But, just in case, you have some intellectual honesty left here goes...
This nation was founded as a REPUBLIC, not a democracy. A republic is a form of governance where the rule of law is codified and published (Re-Pulbios) in a civil contract of constituted (Constitution) authority.
By definition, a Constitution is a NEGATIVE (restraining) document -- that is, it defines what the prevailing political powers CANNOT DO. Where there is NO Constitution, the prevailing political powers have UNLIMITED authority.
Since UNLIMITED authority is the starting base point of all political powers; the purpose of a Constitution is to restrain that power. It therefore follows that the more LIBERALLY the Constitution is interpreted the MORE power the prevailing political powers have; and the more CONSERVATIVELY the Constitution is interpreted the LESS power the prevailing political powers have.
You people who advocate increases in government authority whether it is through economic assaults on individuals and private property (taxation and redistribution) or military assaults on individuals and private property (war) are the REAL LIBERALS regardless of what you choose to call yourselves.
The state is not a benevolent parent, rather it is a massive bureaucratic system dominated by the selfish self-interest of hundreds of thousands of government employees.
Any "service" these people render you is only because their needs and yours just happen to intersect -- a rare serendipitous accidental conjunction; and hardly a reliable expectation. If you REALLY want freedom; stop relying on handouts and have the guts to be independent.
Posted by: Carl Street at September 04, 2007 12:51 PM (ObDOe)
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August 28, 2007
Bad Reporting After Bad
We've been over--and debunked--
this story before:
The U.S. military's soaring demand for small-arms ammunition, fueled by two wars abroad, has left domestic police agencies less able to quickly replenish their supplies, leading some to conserve rounds by cutting back on weapons training, police officials said.
To varying degrees, officials in Montgomery, Loudoun and Anne Arundel counties said, they have begun rationing or making other adjustments to accommodate delivery schedules that have changed markedly since the military campaigns began in Iraq and Afghanistan.
As conclusively proved by interviewing three ammunition manufacturers last week, the military efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan have little or nothing to do with police ammunition shortages in the United States.
To recap from that previous post, when the Associated Press ran essentially the same claims (a canned story deserves a canned response):
ATK's Ammunition Systems Group is the largest ammunition manufacturing body in the world. ATK runs the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant under contract, where it has the capacity to manufacture 1.5 billion rounds of ammunition a year, or put another way, a half billion rounds per year more than is being used by our military in Iraq and Afghanistan.
It is also a major supplier of law enforcement ammunition under Federal Premium, Speer Gold Dot, Lawman, and CCI Blazer brands. The law enforcement ammunition is made in plants in Idaho and Minnesota that are completely separate for their military operations at Lake City. These production lines do not, as the AP falsely states, use the same equipment used to manufacture military ammunition.
Those who stayed with the entire Associated Press article might note that ATK spokesman Bryce Hallowell did not buy the AP's conclusion that the war in Iraq was having a direct effect on police ammunition supplies.
He stated further:
"We had looked at this and didn't know if it was an anomaly or a long-term trend," Hallowell said. "We started running plants 24/7. Now we think it is long-term, so we're going to build more production capability."
I contacted Brian Grace of ATK Corporate Communications for further information, and he also doubted the Associated Press claim that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were responsible for a police ammunition shortage.
Since 9/11 we've seen a huge jump in demand from law enforcement. In the last fiscal year alone we saw demand from law enforcement jump 40%. By running our civil plants 24/7, hiring hundreds of new employees and streamlining our manufacturing processes we were able to increase our deliveries to law enforcement by 30% in that same period. In addition, we've just announced we'll be investing another $5 million in new production lines at our civil ammunition facilities.
I pressed Mr. Grace to clarify, asking:
Based upon this 40% increase in demand by law enforcement, is it more fair to categorize the difficulty of some departments in obtaining ammunition as a fact of increased police demand outstripping current manufacturing capabilities, and not as the result of the military needing more ammunition and drawing down civilian supply?
Is their any shortage of lead, copper, or brass, or it is just a matter of not enough manufacturing equipment?
He responded:
Manufacturing capacity is the main issue. As you might imagine, for a precision manufacturing business that faced many years of steady demand, it can be quite a challenge to suddenly meet double-digit growth in demand. But we're very proud of the successes we've had with increasing our output while maintaining the quality and reliability of our products.
And we're committed to doing everything in our power to accelerate the growth in output, which is what precipitated the recently announced investment in additional equipment.
Let me make that crystal clear.
According to two spokesmen for the world's largest ammunition manufacturer, which runs the military's ammunition manufacturing plant and separately, is a major supplier of law enforcement ammunition, it is a massive and unexpected increase in law enforcement ammunition demand that is causing delays in law enforcement ammunition delays, not the war.
Michael Shovel, National Sales Manager for COR-BON/Glaser, writes into explain that the price increases for ammunition are at least partially because of the demand from China for copper and lead for their building boom:
The reason that PD's and people are having trouble getting ammo and also the price increases is the war effort and also the fact that China is buying up lots of the copper and lead for their building boom.
Our LE market has grown this year the same as it has the past 5 years. No big increase but no drop off either.
The only issue with our ability to deliver ammunition in a timely manner is getting brass cases and primers.
We do only some specialized ammo for the military and it's done in our custom shop instead on the production floor.
Interesting.
Mr. Shovel states that the war effort does play some role in the ammunition shortage, but does not say exactly what it is, and is apparently not speaking for his company when he makes that claim.
He states that their only issue in delivering ammunition has been getting brass cases and primers, and further, that the specialized military ammunition they produce is not part of their normal civilian/law enforcement manufacturing operations.
Michael Haugen, Manager of the Military Products Division for Remington Arms Company Inc., states:
I would say that if they [law enforcement] are not training it is not due to the availability of ammunition.
Remington has one plant that makes all of their ammunition (military, law enforcement, general civilian), and Mr. Haugen stated emphatically that military sales are "definitely not" in any way detracting from the development and manufacture of civilian and law enforcement ammunition, and that Remington has additional manufacturing capacity, depending on the product required.
We now how three major manufacturers stating that their law enforcement ammunition sales are not being impacted by military ammunition sales, which seems to be directly at odds with the claims made first by Associated Press reporters last week, and now by Washington Post staff writer Candace Rondeaux attempting to refloat an already scuttled premise.
And of course, Rondeaux was wrong when she said that the 5.56x45mm NATO cartridge used by the military are "223-caliber rounds -- the same round fired by the military's M-16 and M-4 assault rifles."
Of course, had she bothered to contact ammunition companies in this story about ammunition, she might have figured a few of these things out before she went to print.
[h/t PrairiePundit]
Update: I'm not familiar with how the Washington Post cycles their news stories, but this one is no longer accessible from the front page.
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CF: yes, the MSM is bullshyte, and making crap up, as is their wont, as long as it's typical Leftist crap, attacking the war.
But, the article is CORRECT on one point: a 5.56x45mm M16/M4 round, IS a .223 caliber round!
That's a fact, and your talking to someone who has fired THOUSANDS of each!
However, you are correct in the point that they are NOT the "same" round, because the civilian version, the .223 caliber mainly manufactured by Winchester, is manufactured with lower velocity specs and a fewer amount of grains of powder.
The MilSpec 5.56x45mm has more powder and much more pressure and velocity; thus, you CAN fire a civilian Winchester .223 round out of an M16/M4, but you should NOT try to do the reverse, or you might just damage your hunting rifle, or blow out your eye!
That said, there is NO shortage of civilian or law enforcement .223 rounds in the US, because the US Military is using all the 5.56/45mm rounds in Iraq & Afghanistan!
Two different production lines, two differnt sets of specs!
The issue is as you state, the 40% increase in LE ammo requests since 9/11!
Posted by: Dale in Atlanta at August 28, 2007 12:34 AM (x1Pnj)
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A double debunkage first?. Nice job on the re-debunk.
Posted by: markm at August 28, 2007 08:56 AM (hVOTO)
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Training has increased quite a bit, and a substantial number of police departments have added .223 rifles to their standard equipment; not due to 911, but due to preparations for active shooter scenarios. Adding a new weapon, particularly one with a substantially different system than pistols, requires a lot more training and ammo demands on top of the old ones.
Posted by: Leo at August 28, 2007 09:11 AM (gVhqK)
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Alas, the article without inside info is convincing.
I noticed that neither photo allowed you to see what type of round it was. But yeah, theoretically they could be firing .9mm or .40 cal, both of which are in use overseas. And yes, everybody who watches cop shows know that SWAT teams tend to use the 5.56. So thanks for the vital expose. You're very good at this sort of thing and we're lucky to have you around. I find few blogs "vital," but yours is one.
Posted by: Michael Fumento at August 28, 2007 10:14 AM (uZVcT)
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I was part of the MSM horde in Riyadh during the '90-91 Gulf War and can personally attest that there is no limit to the laziness and stupidity of the average MSM gumshoe. Even worse, they print every anti-government leaning piece of info as gospel, and reserve their skepticism for our government's possible successes.
Posted by: daveinboca at August 28, 2007 10:37 AM (muPb3)
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Trackbacked by The Thunder Run -
Web Reconnaissance for 08/28/2007
A short recon of whatÂ’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.
Posted by: David M at August 28, 2007 10:58 AM (gIAM9)
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One aspect that the article hasn't touched on is that a majority of police departments are chronically short on either $$$ for training or $$$ for ammo for training. In my experience: I moved to Florida from Massachusetts in 2004 when I was home on R&R from Baghdad. while finishing packing I realized that I needed to pack up my firearms, to include my M-4 carbine. I was hesitiant to pack all my ammunition and mags however (1200 rounds in boxes, call it half a case of 5.56mm and 20 extra pre-loaded 30 round mags) and because I didn't want to carry it all in the trunk of the car, and the movers wouldn't ship it as "hazardous material" so I drove to the local PD with it and went in to the desk Sgt. and asked if they were interested. The Sgt. was a bit nonplussed at the whole situation (how often do citizens walk in with a triple combat load of 30 round magazines fully loaded and half a case of 5.56 mm? ESPECIALLY in an anti-gun state like Massachusetts? And offer it up gratis for the guys to use?)
He called out to the Duty LT. who also happened to be the SWAT commander, who, when he saw the windfall I was offering and the explanation that I was moving and didn't want to risk a Pan-Eastern trip with THAT much ammo, he was ecstatic!
His exact line to the desk Sgt was "Call the SWAT Team and tell them to draw their weapons! We got us a free day of training to shoot up!!!"
He then explained that there was NEVER enough money or ammo for training and that they were grateful for the opportunity I provided to them.
Just my 2 cents and personal observations.
Posted by: Big Country at August 28, 2007 11:07 AM (q7b5Y)
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My AR has a "Wylde" chamber so it will shoot either 5.56 or .223 accurately - but I reload my own so it's not a problem either. Everythign I've heard is that Police departments are as Big Country said, usually short on ammo-funds - but those would typically be for Civilian and LEO .223, not Army 5.56, and I believe the most commonly adopted Police sidearm is currently .40 S&W which is not the caliber of most Army-issue sidearms either.
But a stick is a stick and any MSM dead-horse will do.
Posted by: DirtCrashr at August 28, 2007 03:20 PM (VNM5w)
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Hold on. Why is Mr. Grace's company -- and presumably other companies -- experiencing a "double-digit growth" for the demand of ammunition at a time when domestic crime rates have only
recently (during the last two years) started going back up nationwide -- and at a pretty miniscule rate?
And can we really trust the statement of corporate executives who need to preserve the price of their companies' stocks and company bond-ratings from bad P.R.?
Not trying to be a wet blanket, just trying to be a healthy skeptic.
Damn. I'm almost defending the Washington Post. I feel a little dirty...
Posted by: Alex Ryking at August 29, 2007 05:23 AM (7C5i1)
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Hold on. Why is Mr. Grace's company -- and presumably other companies -- experiencing a "double-digit growth" for the demand of ammunition at a time when domestic crime rates have only recently (during the last two years) started going back up nationwide -- and at a pretty miniscule rate?
Why would you believe a 40% police training ammo growth to be somehow related to domestic crime rate?
The days of Barny Fife and shooting one cylinder full of .38's once a year to re qualify appears to have fallen by the wayside and even modest sized cities are sporting SWAT teams now.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 29, 2007 08:26 AM (5KwlV)
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And can we really trust the statement of corporate executives who need to preserve the price of their companies' stocks and company bond-ratings from bad P.R.?
If they're selling their product faster than they can make it, that's good PR in the business world. In fact, it's good cause for further investment.
Posted by: Pablo at August 29, 2007 09:07 PM (yTndK)
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August 27, 2007
Video: Kidnap Victim Rescued in Baghdad
The elated outburst from the family when the terp lets them know that he victim is alive is touching.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I loved it! Of course I saw it several years ago too.
Is this really the first you've seen of it? If so I believe there are 2 more recent rescues you might want to track down and post. They were just as impressive.
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at August 28, 2007 03:01 AM (Lgw9b)
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Scott Horton, We'd Like to Hear a "Who"
In the early hours of Saturday morning, I
published an entry regarding a claim made by
Harper's contributor
Scott Horton.
In an August 24 entry called "Those Thuggish Neocons," Horton described what he claimed was a direct lie by a reporter:
I have no idea whether Beauchamp’s story was accurate. But at this point I have seen enough of the Neocon corner’s war fables to immediately discount anything that emerges from it. One example: back last spring, when I was living in Baghdad, on Haifa Street, I sat in the evening reading a report by one of the core Neocon pack. He was reporting from Baghdad, and recounted a day he had spent out on a patrol with U.S. troops on Haifa Street. He described a peaceful, pleasant, upscale community. Children were out playing on the street. Men and women were out going about their daily business. Well, in fact I had been forced to spend the day “in the submarine,” as they say, missing appointments I had in town. Why? This bucolic, marvelous Haifa Street that he described had erupted in gun battles the entire day. In the view of my security guards, with which I readily concurred, it was too unsafe. And yes, I could hear the gunfire and watch some of the exchanges from my position. No American patrol had passed by and there were certainly no children playing in the street. This was the point when I realized that many of these accounts were pure fabrications.
As I said two days ago, we need to know that those who are providing us information from the front lines are telling the truth to the best they can determine it. Whether you are for this conflict or against it is a matter of opinion, but to develop, reinforce, or change those opinions, we need facts.
If there are reporters who aren't just biased, but flat-out lying, we need to call them out and discredit them.
I sent the following an email to Mr. Horton at scott@harpers.org on August 25:
Mr. Horton,
I can't claim that Harper's is one of my normal stops, but I was very intrigued by your post today "Those Thuggish Neocons," particularly the paragraph about the reporter who fabricated the Haifa Street report you read.
If you are familiar with my small blog at all (and I'm sure you probably aren't); I often run down false or inaccurate media claims, typically hitting the wire service reporting the hardest, though I've also captured fraud and inaccuracies in newspapers and magazines as well. And yes, I'd readily admit that I have a conservative perspective, but that does not make me so biased that I approach the world with ideological blinders, as this post burning a false pro-Iranian War argument should show.
I was hoping that you would provide me with the date of the story you related as specifically as you can recall, along with the news organization and individual reporter you said was making up this report.
This is pretty obviously unethical and possibly illegal, and I want this resolved quickly.
Thanks,
To date, Mr. Horton has not responded to my query, though he has apparently been online and posting quite heavily; he has posted no fewer than seven blog entries yesterday and so far today. I hope he considers answering.
Since I submitted my first email and wrote my first post on the subject Saturday, a whole host of commenters has chimed in, suggesting certain writers and certain stories may be part of the story that Mr. Horton was referencing, including one of the reporters himself via email (who, as you may well imagine, stood behind his story).
The thing is, most of the stories suggested by both liberal and conservative commenters alike both came from 2007, and in an interview with Democracy Now!, Horton quite clearly shows that he was on Haifa Street for a period of three weeks, and "just returned" at some time prior to the April 14, 2006 interview.
This would seem to limit the time period of these dueling accounts to March or April of 2006.
I'd again like to ask Mr. Horton to tell us who wrote the report he said he read that was one of the "pure fabrications" he recalls.
If so, knowing the date range, I should be able to track down the article in question, and then cross-reference that again other media and military accounts to determine the accuracy of the disputed claim.
We need honesty in media, and need to burn dissemblers, left or right, to the ground.
Don't you agree, Mr. Horton?
Update: In case Mr. Horton's email is full or non-functioning, I've also sent a request in to Giulia Melucci, Harper's Vice President/Public Relations, and asked for her help in resolving this matter.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I would be very surprised if the reknowned international human rights lawyer and prolific blogger (757 No Comment pieces in 2007 to date according to Harper's)would do a "chuck and duck" with an accustation such as that. For a man who publicly proclaims his favorite blog to be Andrew Sullivan's, I am certain he will have the integrity to follow up on his charges.
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 27, 2007 10:17 AM (0pZel)
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I suspect he's doing a little
Beauchamping of his own here.
If he spent 3 weeks living on Haifa street, there certainly should have been a number of dispatches for Harpers filed describing the conditions there.
Then again, maybe he was consumed with hard hitting reporting on the intricacies and subtleties involved in the local basket weaving trade.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 27, 2007 10:42 AM (5KwlV)
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PA - In 2006, he was working on getting a CBS cameraman released from detention. If he was there in 2007, perhaps he was just sipping green tea in imitation of Broadway Joe Wilson.
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 27, 2007 10:56 AM (0pZel)
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Wouldn't it be a hoot if Horton was lying about someone else lying?
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at August 27, 2007 12:10 PM (Lgw9b)
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I agree. It's difficult to believe a neocon would lie about Iraq. Horton must be roasted for this.
Posted by: bobo at August 27, 2007 12:56 PM (4b/1T)
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Bobo,
It's hard to believe anyone would like about Iraq. Especially an American, and especially an American who cloaks himself in the journalist's cloak of objectivity.
We expect journalists to tell us the truth. The truth as they see it is just fine, as long as it's the truth.
If Horton believes that Kristol, Kagen or whoever was not being honest, then he owes it to his readers to identify the piece in question and lay out his case for why he thinks that story is false.
This is not about ideology. It's about the integrity of an institution of democracy.
Show some intellectual honesty, if that's at all possible.
Posted by: Dave at August 27, 2007 01:19 PM (bF9wi)
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I'll be surprised if Horton responds beyond a vague self-righteous swipe about how the neocons are now attacking him.
Posted by: huxley at August 27, 2007 01:25 PM (/16qw)
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Hi CY, just posting a test comment.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at August 27, 2007 02:03 PM (N++ll)
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That has to be one of the best blog headlines ever. Even if you didn't have a legitimate post to follow it (and you do), you would have had to invent one, just to use that headline.
As quick as folks were to burn John McCain over his exaggerations of Iraqi safety and security, it would be very surprising if this alleged neocon reporter had not been called out immediately.
But, as you say, better late than never. Produce the alleged offender, and if he can't defend himself, well, "Boil that dust speck," I believe was the chant in the animated version of the Seuss classic.
Posted by: notropis at August 27, 2007 02:26 PM (zr8/n)
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Oh, and from Horton's original:
"This was the point when I realized that many of these accounts were pure fabrications."
Not until then? And from that one single incident he realized that "many" accounts were pure fabrications? The scales dropped from his eyes, and he suddenly knew that the neocons were capable of lying.
When you actually analyze the content of what these folks say, rather than simply absorbing the tone, you are left scratching your head.
Posted by: notropis at August 27, 2007 02:34 PM (zr8/n)
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Facing two camps of opposing ideologies I find only one that is willing to denounce wrong regardless of which camp the wrong-doer belongs. Conservatives, as a general rule, stand by their convictions and want leadership and information that is both right and true. Liberals, again as a general rule, adhere to an ends justifies the means mentality and are willing to back fellow liberals no matter what the offense may be.
Mr. Horton does not seem to understand this subtle difference between the two ideological camps. If Rush Limbaugh, CY, or Malkin simply state something in error their audience will quickly hold those pundits accountable for a correction. If those same pundits would willfully state something in error that same audience will simply stop being an audience. Maybe that is the big difference between Conservative and Liberal.?
When one holds to a relativistic morality were only Conservative is a quantifiable wrong, truth becomes subjective.
Posted by: Mekan at August 27, 2007 03:01 PM (hm8tW)
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Hmmm... Antiwar.com. Antiwar Radio. Scott Horton. Christopher Deliso. And a book called Spinning on the Axis of Evil.
Could Scott II in defending TNR and Scott I, be paraphrasing Scott III - Scott Taylor of Canada? Some passages sound eerily - similar. This summary by Deliso is a perfect summation of anti-troop asshattery, there must be a framed version available to the new up and coming leftards:
"Spinning on the Axis of Evil's analysis of US government propaganda is particularly amusing when Taylor quotes US military personnel, some of whom spout the kind of G.I. Joe bravado that gives the army a bad reputation abroad. We are treated to the remarkably incongruous sight of a tank full of "good ole' boy" rednecks sporting a Confederate flag, speeding along right behind another one manned by black soldiers blasting gangsta rap (p. 203). Then there is the tough-talking Special Forces soldier in Turkey who bloviates, "when George Bush, our Commander in Chief, tells us to start the music, we are going to rock and roll" (p. 162).
However, when the same soldiers had to face the music they started, their perceptions changed. Taylor's final interviews (from September 2003) offer poignant glimpses of American soldiers' present reality, demoralized, far from home and in constant danger. We hear from the grumpy sergeant who complains that he and his men are booze and sex-starved (p. 213), about female solders getting "knocked up" just to get out of Iraq (p. 214), and the tank commander who muses on his statistical rate of being killed in battle (p. 213), while hoping to someday go home and "Â…forget forever that there is a place on earth called Iraq."
Posted by: Enlightened at August 27, 2007 03:32 PM (CHJ2J)
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How about this blog - scroll down to roughly paragraph 10 on the March 29, 2007 entry named "Opposing views on the War on Terror"
Hmmm. Sounds like some soldiers actually wrote them. Is Scott Horton implying these soldiers lied? And that since they did TNR was merely following suit by printing their version of homegrown, employee-fed lies?
http://cavmom.wordpress.com/2007/03/
Posted by: Enlightened at August 27, 2007 03:57 PM (CHJ2J)
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Ok, and here might be the reporter's account:
ABC's Terry McCarthy: "Children have come out to play again. Shoppers are back in markets. A few devout souls even venture past the barbed wire to pray. Baghdad is still rocked by car bombs every day. But right in the center of the city, a small area of relative calm is starting to grow, thanks to stepped up U.S. patrols and increased Iraqi checkpoints. Nowhere is safe for Westerners to linger, but over the past week we visited five different neighborhoods where the locals told us life is slowly coming back to normal. We started in what used to be one of the most dangerous parts of the city. This is Haifa Street, otherwise known as ‘Sniper Street.' Until two months ago, a major battleground between U.S. troops and insurgents. Today, people who live on Haifa Street tell us it is quiet - or at least quiet enough for them to venture back out on to the street. At a tea shop, these men actually asked us to film them to show things are getting better. In Babil, we stopped for ice cream, 20 cents a scoop. The owner here, Mohamed Hassan, tells us security is improving in this part of Baghdad just in time for the summer, which is, of course, when they make most of their money. Hussein Jihad has a clothing store in Karada. ‘When people heard that it was safe,' says Hussein, ‘they started coming out and spending money again.' We found a mosque in Zayouna that had been fire-bombed. Now, open for prayer. And in Zawra, Baghdad's biggest amusement park is running again. People feel safe to bring their kids here, and have fun on a Friday afternoon. For us, it is really great to see people in Baghdad having fun. ‘It's safe here,' says 12-year-old Abdullah. ‘There used to be some bullets, but not anymore.' Nobody knows if this small safe zone will expand or get swallowed up again by violence. For the time being, though, people here are happy to enjoy a life that looks almost normal."
This and the previous link I gave you all occurred around springtime this year - like you suspected. This year. Not when Horton was in Baghdad?
http://www.johnmccain.com/informing/news/newsreleases/b0eebc9d-100d-4622-82a4-a8be8acc0248.htm
Addendum: Somehow I think this is linked to McCain's trip.
Posted by: Enlightened at August 27, 2007 04:16 PM (CHJ2J)
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Enlightened - I saw that Scott Horton at Antiwar.com and thought based on the bio it might be a different person. Just a thought.
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 27, 2007 04:23 PM (0pZel)
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Yep, they are not the same person, but the rhetoric and talking points are pretty much identical.
Antiwar Radio: Scott Horton Interviews Scott Horton
Monday, May 21st, 2007 in News, Civil liberties, War crimes, War on Terror, Politics, Antiwar Radio, Guantánamo by Scott Horton| Comment |
International human rights attorney and author of the blog No Comment at Harpers.org, The Other Scott Horton (no relation), discusses the revolution within the form of American government that has occurred in the last six years in the name of the all powerful “Unitary Executive”: Kidnapping, torture, massive domestic wiretapping, the replacement of U.S. attorneys who don’t do a good enough job prosecuting Democrats, and why Goerge Washington’s system was better.
Posted by: Enlightened at August 27, 2007 04:55 PM (CHJ2J)
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Of course, a disinterested pursuer of truth like Scott Horton doesn't respond to requests for clarification from thuggish neocons!
It's a circular argument, you see? Any critic of Scott Horton is, by definition, not to be trusted.
Posted by: Ali-Bubba at August 27, 2007 05:16 PM (wR21n)
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Any critic of Scott Horton is, by definition, not to be trusted.
And anyone who does not agree with Scott Horton is, by his definition, a "neocon."
Posted by: C-C-G at August 27, 2007 07:13 PM (8o8H3)
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Sorry but my comment/question is a liitle off the subject, but I find it incredulous just the same. Is there really a street in Baghdad, a very pronounced muslim city named "Haifa"? Haifa, (the same exact spelling to the best of my knowledge) is the name of a very prominent city and port in Israel to which I have visited on numerous occasions. If there is such a street, was it always known as Haifa Street or was it renamed after the U.S.intercession in 2003?
Posted by: Tom McKenzie at August 27, 2007 11:44 PM (1ii59)
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"I like dealing with rightists. They tell you what they really think, unlike the leftists who say one thing and mean another."
A quote from that infamous neocon tool and fellow traveller, Mao Tse-Tung.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at August 27, 2007 11:48 PM (sHuCu)
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Of course, I could be wrong, and if events prove me such, will have no difficulty acknowledging it, but I suspect that Mr. Horton's accusation of neocon lies was of the "everyone knows they do, so no proof is required beyond my statement of truthiness," type rather than the "I know neocons lie because I have actual proof," variety.
Mr. Horton may now realize that while virtually everyone with whom he associates is of a certain left-leaning mindset, a mindset wherein Mr. Horton's comments were merely preaching to the choir, not everyone in the world is a member of that choir and might be so impolite as to ask for actual, verifiable facts of the kind that have proved so troublesome to Franklin Foer and his merry band at The New Republic.
Harper's may not be far behind in the race to the journalistic bottom.
Posted by: Mike at August 28, 2007 12:19 AM (eD2kz)
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Mike,
What you said.
And no, do not hold your breath for a reply from either Mr. Horton or Ms. Melucci, or anyone else at Harper's for that matter.
Ain't gonna' happen.
What might happen is a series of further attacks on the likes of CY, WS, or those dangerous "neo-con" thugs.
BTW, what is going to happen when Hillary! becomes POTUS, the House and Senate are controlled by the Democrats, and the war continues?
?
Another "Neo-con" plot?
Just askin'.
Of course, the Hillary! administration may just surrender to Al Qaeda, Iran, and their proxies (Hamas, Hezbollah, etc.) thereby ending the war but not the violence.
It could happen.
Or not.
Just sayin'.
Posted by: MTT at August 28, 2007 09:52 AM (Jl0UE)
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A neocon lying about Iraq??? Now I've heard everything!
Posted by: Luke at August 28, 2007 09:59 AM (W+LkJ)
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This whole story stinks. Whether Mr. Horton's original story was true or not, it speaks volumes as to his journalistic credibility. Either Mr. Horton fabricated the entire story, or he remained silent when a fellow journalist fabricated an entire story (at least until Mr. Horton could use the story to bolster his ideological argument.)
How are we not to assume that Mr. HortonÂ’s view of journalism is to put ideology before facts even in his belated condemnation of this yet unknown other journalist?
Posted by: Brian at August 28, 2007 10:35 AM (23j6d)
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Could a cross reference be made between the dates that this guy was in "the sub" and the reporting of the 'unconfirmed necon'? If it is known when this Harper's guy was there, and there would have to be a record of violence on those days keeping reporters off the street... I would think anyway. Or does fuzzy recall become the refuge? Don't take notes or keep records and all is "I don't recall" after that. This sounds like another 'Bochump' to me... and he is not comfortable with answering cause whatever he says now will go under a microscope. You should be ashamed for making this poor workman for the people feel bad about telling lies that are for the good of all.
Posted by: Donald Giannatti at August 28, 2007 11:00 AM (FRu8T)
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Or does fuzzy recall become the refuge?
Not after Scooter Libby. He got convicted for fuzzy recall.
Oh, silly me, I forgot... that law only applies to the
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil Wepubwicans, not to upstanding Demogogues... er... Democrats.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 28, 2007 07:04 PM (8o8H3)
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I find this man's comments questionable for several reasons. Are we to believe he sat around in an area where gun battles were taking place all day, yet he couldn't provide any details. His minders just thought this was a wonderful place to park him whiule they drank green tea?
That ll the pro war stories are just fluff although again no specifics. Sounds like this man is an idiot. By the way Haifa Street would hardly be conjured by to invoke 5th Avenue or Rodeo Drive, its a street with businesses and cafes located in what passes in Baghdad as an upper middle class neighborhood. This would mean you'd have to live in Camden NJ to consider this upscale.
Posted by: Thomas Jackson at August 29, 2007 06:25 PM (A2ZNt)
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Horton seems to be playing the equivalence card that the leftists do so well. i.e. If I can show that the right is lying about Iraq than it's okay for the left to lie about Iraq. That's their (the left) version of 'balanced' reporting.
Posted by: czekmark at August 29, 2007 10:28 PM (5Jrbj)
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So, any response from Horton? Or his editor? We need a followup! :-)
Posted by: Greg at August 30, 2007 05:08 AM (KqaNf)
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August 26, 2007
In Ramadi, Hope Comes in Little Things
Like
new glass.
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Here in America, something like new glass in a storefront window is such an everyday occurrence that it is largely taken for granted. Not so in Iraq, which has suffered decades of totalitarian rule under Saddam.
We are bringing hope to these people, hope that they can put new glass in their store (and home) windows without fear that it will soon be broken.
And that fact, for some odd reason, drives the lefties nuts.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 26, 2007 12:20 PM (447LE)
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August 25, 2007
Burning Another Beauchamp
If we're to make any sort of sense of the Iraq War at all, we need to know that those who are providing us information on the conflict are being as honest in their reporting as inherent human biases allow. As it has often been said, we can allow people to have their own opinions, bu not their own facts. On that point, I think we can all agree.
Because of this shared desire for facts, those dissemblers who falsify accounts and events in that conflict should be brought to light and discredited so that the can no longer easily spread lies.
Friday, Harper's Scott Horton blasted one reporter for lying, and for being part of a group creating "pure fabrications" when it came to war reporting:
I have no idea whether Beauchamp's story was accurate. But at this point I have seen enough of the Neocon corner's war fables to immediately discount anything that emerges from it. One example: back last spring, when I was living in Baghdad, on Haifa Street, I sat in the evening reading a report by one of the core Neocon pack. He was reporting from Baghdad, and recounted a day he had spent out on a patrol with U.S. troops on Haifa Street. He described a peaceful, pleasant, upscale community. Children were out playing on the street. Men and women were out going about their daily business. Well, in fact I had been forced to spend the day "in the submarine," as they say, missing appointments I had in town. Why? This bucolic, marvelous Haifa Street that he described had erupted in gun battles the entire day. In the view of my security guards, with which I readily concurred, it was too unsafe. And yes, I could hear the gunfire and watch some of the exchanges from my position. No American patrol had passed by and there were certainly no children playing in the street. This was the point when I realized that many of these accounts were pure fabrications.
Clearly, Horton vividly recalls the details of that day, including both the day-long gun battles erupting around him (how could he not?) and the written words of a dishonest reporter that he knew well enough that he could even identify him as part of the core member of a specific group of reporters.
I don't care if this reporter Horton read is pro-war or antiwar; if he's lying, he's undermining all of our understanding about the war. We need a thorough investigation, and if the charges are accurate, this liar should be purged from his news organization and the profession altogether.
But first, we need information.
Horton establishes last spring as the rough time frame and Haifa Street as the location in Baghdad where this story of press duplicity allegedly took place. I've taking the liberty of contacting Mr. Horton via his Harper's email address, and I'm asking him to provide as much detail as possible about the fraudulent reporting of which he was a near-eyewitness. The more detail he can provide, the more concrete of a case we can make.
We need good reporting to understand the wars to which we're committing our nation's soldiers, and we need to discard those journalists that either can't tell truth from fiction, or prefer not to make the distinction.
Hopefully, we'll be able to get this resolved quite soon. Such fakery simply can't be allowed to stand.
Update: At the always thoughtful Bookworm Room, lawyer "Bookworm" digs further into Horton's article, and discovers "a swirling sea of anger" where honesty is perhaps not his priority.
Update: I've noticed that several people attempting to track down the article Mr. Horton may have been discussing have been focusing on articles written in 2007.
According to Democracy Now!, Horton was in Baghdad, on Haifa Street, prior to this April 14, 2006 article, and had only "recently returned." Further, that seems to be more consistent with his vague timeline of "back last spring."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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When you have the liberal belief that all truth is relative, then "facts" can be based on opinions.
Posted by: Francis Marion at August 25, 2007 05:15 AM (tmIbK)
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I hope you aren't holding your breath wating for a response from Mr. Horton.
My first thought when I read his accusation was - "Certainly, with such blatant deception on the part of this dastardly neocon, Horton's own rebuttal was soon written, corroborated, and published and the lying neocon's career was thankfully destroyed! Surely!"
But I wonder why he didn't mention his own follow-up rebuttal?
It must have something to do with the stranglehold the neocons have on the national media.
Yeah, that's it.
Posted by: Fred Patten at August 25, 2007 06:41 AM (cp8yW)
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CY, are you conducting similar rigorous fact checks with reporters you happen to agree with? Do you read right-wing reporting with the same jaundiced eye you have when you read reporting from lefties?
For example, did you ever follow up on the "Al Qaeda roasting kids and serving them to their parents" story? That whole thing seemed far-fetched, to put the most charitable spin on it, but did you accept it because it came via Yon despite the fact that he provided no backup for the tale? Perhaps I missed it, but I don't remember reading any email exchanges with Yon where you asked him to defend his story.
Posted by: nunaim at August 25, 2007 07:36 AM (wCRif)
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I wonder.....are liberals capable of doing anything but talking, whining, and lying?
Posted by: Kathy Washburn at August 25, 2007 07:36 AM (7Fjsx)
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I believe the "neocon" in question is Fred Kagen.
On Monday May 21st he wrote a piece titled "You Bet We Can Win" in which he states:
But looking at these casualty numbers alone distorts reality. Security is improving across Baghdad, even in traditionally bad areas. In early May, I walked and drove through these neighborhoods. Haifa St., scene of day-long gunfights between Al Qaeda terrorists and coalition forces in January, is calm and starting to revive. Its market is open and flourishing.
Even in Baghdad's Dora neighborhood, some of which remains very dangerous, the market now has more than 200 shops - up from zero in February. "
I would not be so quick to trust that Scott is telling the truth. By May, it is quite possible those streets were indeed as Kagen described.
I'd like verification from many other sources about what Haifa Street was like during that time in May.
However, even if Kagen's statement about Haifa Street prove to be wrong - for Scott to claim that he is part of a neocon group that always creates "pure fabrications" is nothing more hyperbole driven by his personal ideology.
I have seen more than enough examples from members of the left wing liberal media establishment, of which Scott Horton belongs, create pure fabrications, both with words and photoshopped images but I don't belligerently discount all stories that emerge from them.
John Burns offers some of the best reporting on Iraq, as do a short but important list of other journalists that belong to a large group of the liberal ideologically motivated left wing press.
Even if Kagen's statement about Haifa Street is proven completely false, that doesn't negate the truth about Scott Beauchamp - he fabricated his stories that were passed off by Franklin Foer as the truth. Foer still refuses to admit he was wrong, he was duped, his teams fact checking was flawed or fabricated, and that he "chose" or "hired" Beauchamp to provide this "Diary" only because he was married or engaged(not sure which) to a TNR journalist & staff member.
It bears repeating: Even if that one particular statement about Haifa Street was misleading or completely fabricated, neither that, nor the nepotism in chosing Scott Beauchamp to author this
Diary" negate the uglytruth that neither Foer, nor his lemming readership, nor Scott Horton, a writer whose own agenda and idealogical leanings cloud his stories and his judgment, wish to acknowledge:
Scott Beauchamp FABRICATED each story that TNR published and touted to be an honest and truthful look at a "day in the life" of soldiers in Iraq.
Scott Norton is a member of a large society called "THE MEDIA" . This society is comprised of organizations and individuals that lean left and lean right.
When any one individual or organization, whether they lean left or right, fabricates lies about the war, the soldiers, the President, or any other issue, it diminishes the credibility of EVERY journalist, writer and photographer including Scott Horton.
Posted by: Tara at August 25, 2007 07:42 AM (CeELz)
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Here is the link to the Opinion piece written by Fred Kagen in the Daily News - that I believe Scott Norton was referring to:
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2007/05/21/2007-05-21_you_bet_we_can_win.html
Posted by: Tara at August 25, 2007 07:46 AM (CeELz)
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Even Carl Levin says this week that the Iraq war is improving. Naturally, the Left must ratchet up the anti-war response to counter any "good news" of this sort.
How about going back 5 months and fabricating a story with a parsimony of detail to cast doubt? Don't do anything more than create a "Jayson Blair" scenario. Then sit back and deride the "neocons" who fail to PROVE the made up story is false.
Makes me wonder if his source may not have been Scott Thomas Beauchamp???
Posted by: BigTex at August 25, 2007 07:46 AM (ilTLX)
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nunaim, Yon recorded precisely what Iraqi interpreter extracted for the citizen--he neither claimed it was true or false, just an accurate recording of what the man said. Are you disputing the interpreter's translation?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 25, 2007 08:02 AM (HcgFD)
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Are you disputing the interpreter's translation?
No. What do I know about translations? On the other hand, Horton is recording what he experienced on the day in question. Why is one tale open to scrutiny and the other not? I suggest that it is simply because of the political leanings of the writers involved.
Posted by: nunaim at August 25, 2007 08:19 AM (wCRif)
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nunaim:
Try harder son.
Horton isn't even saying he is comparing the SAME day as Kagen's.
Horton states Kagen was referring to -some- non-specific day that was calmer than it had been in the past. He never mentioned a specific day.
ALong comes Horton to say that ONE day, the day he is writing his piece was not calm, and had some skirmishes and fighting. So that means, within his tunneled logic, that ALL days MUST be like the ONE day he was writing about.
Whereas Kagen stated, quite clearly, that while things aren't perfect, they are getting better. He never once said the fighting is -all- gone. Ever.
Go home.
Troll.
Never once is it specified that Horton and Kagen are talking about the same day.
Posted by: couch1971 at August 25, 2007 08:31 AM (AW6kf)
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As regards Burning yet another Beauchamp;
Has anyone read the NYT op-ed from the soldiers of the 82nd? As I read, there were a number of questions that I had regarding the authorship of the piece. There were a several incongruities, (sp?)and while I was an E-5 (Army SGT), I didn't know many individuals whom were familiar with "Janus", albeit, I was. I spoke w/Bill Roggio via phone, and we both concluded that it was "ghost written" by someone far above the level of the individuals that put their names to it. We concurred that the "essay" could be ripped apart in almost every single paragraph.
Any thoughts?
Posted by: Jack Coonan at August 25, 2007 08:37 AM (bAzyC)
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*Sorry if this is a duplicate but my first attempt to publish this indicated there was a problem, so I re-edited it slightly and I've tried to publish one more time*
-- Nunaim: You seem to suffer from the same stupidity most of your ilk is experiencing. Mike Yon never stated that the roasting of a child in Iraq by Al Queda was a fact. He merely shared a story that an Iraqi told in front of other soldiers and officials. The translator was an American soldier who belonged to the unit Mike was embedded with.
At NO point did Mike say the story was true, altho he felt the need to share it only because in the past 18 months he has spent in Iraq he has personally witnessed atrocities by Al Queda, and as thus, he felt the story could not be dismissed.
Why is cooking a child any different to you than BEHEADING civilians live on the internet?
An Iraqi reporter that has recently been kidnapped by Al Queda told Mike he too had heard that same story, except it was the baked and roasted head of the child that was presented to the family.
Al Q has tortured people using drills, have stuffed bombs up their cavities and used them as bombs to attack soldiers, have beheaded innocent individuals live on the net, and you wonder if its at all possible that Al Q could bake children and serve them to their parents?? Mike does NOT need to verify a story that he IDENTIFIED as a story and NOT as fact.
Its interesting to me how NO ONE of any value or serious weight on either side o the media has any issue with Mike's credibility or his dispatches.
The only people that keep harping on this are belligerent ignorant left wing bloggers with too much time on their hands, who seem incapable of understanding the ethical difference between sharing a story that was clearly identified as a story, within a bigger story, AND LYING or FABRICATING "facts" about our soldiers, our President, and the war.
I stood on a small hill in Stuttgart that had been created by the ashes of Jews that were cooked in ovens after having been gassed. If Germans were capable of gassing alive Jews then cooking their bodies in ovens and leaving the ashes behind that eventually the formed a small but evident hill in an otherwise very flat landscape, then why do you have trouble believing a story but forth by an Iraqi claiming that he witnessed Al Queda serve a baked child to the child's parents.
Let me make this clear to you--- at no point did Mike Yon ever state this story was a fact.
Mike was embedded with a unit, and at a meeting with Iraqi officials, one official who spoke freely at the meeting in front of Iraqi and American commanders -- whose names Mike clearly states( these would be witnesses lending veracity to what Mike wrote, Numaim) this official shares his opinion about how Al Queda came to Baquabah and united independent criminal gangs.
Now - you and your ilk of losers don't seem to take issue with that part of the dispatch. Lets move on to see how stupid you really are.
In the same dispatch Mike clearly identifies that this Iraqi official is speaking through an American interpreter, Lt David Wallach who speaks native Arabic.
So,numaim, David Wallach is identified, so he serves as yet another witness to the story Mike is RETELLING. So far Mike has provided 3 names that can lend veracity to the fact that this Iraqi told them about al queda baking a child and serving the child to his parents.
So without a doubt we (those of us who actually know how to use our brains) know that Mike Yon has NOT FABRICATED the story, since he provides the names of people who were there and who can VERIFY that this Iraqi told the story about Al Q baking children.
Are you following this logic, numaim??
I doubt you have the mental capacity to understand the difference since you and your merry band of morons out of desperation to prove your stupidity keep bringing up the "mike yon" story about Al Q baking kids.
SO LET ME SPELL IT OUT FOR YOU:
Beauchamp FABRICATED all his stories. Mike DID NOT fabricate what he reported. Mike repeated a story told to him in front of WITNESSES he identifies. And that story included some valuable important insight:
"the Iraqi official related how al Qaeda united these gangs who then became absorbed into “al Qaeda.” They recruited boys born during the years 1991, 92 and 93 who were each given weapons, including pistols, a bicycle and a phone (with phone cards paid) and a salary of $100 per month, all courtesy of al Qaeda. These boys were used for kidnapping, torturing and murdering people."
"AL Q used the young boys they recruited for kidnapping torturing and murdering people. At first, he said, they would only target Shia, but over time the new al Qaeda directed attacks against Sunni, and then anyone who thought differently."
I notice how you don't seem to ever comment on the above in your endless nattering so I have to assume you and TBogg and Instaputz and the rest of you lemmings have no problem with the credibility of the above.
You just seem to have a problem with the rest of the story this same official is sharing, but you fail to mention that Mike didn't MAKE UP the story, he merely repeated it.
Lets read what Mike witnessed:
"The official reported that on a couple of occasions in Baqubah, al Qaeda invited to lunch families they wanted to convert to their way of thinking. In each instance, the family had a boy, he said, who was about 11 years old. As LT David Wallach interpreted the man’s words, I saw Wallach go blank and silent. He stopped interpreting for a moment. I asked Wallach, “What did he say?” Wallach said that at these luncheons, the families were sat down to eat. And then their boy was brought in with his mouth stuffed. The boy had been baked. Al Qaeda served the boy to his family"
Now let me help you out here, Numaim:
Mike quoted what David Wallach, an American soldier who speaks arabic, was translating from the Iraqi official.
At no point EVER does Mike Yon say the latter or even the earlier part of what the Iraqi official is telling him is itself factual. BUT he does report verbatim what Lt David Wallach translates from the Iraqi official.
Mike Yon never said that this story about Al Q baking children was true. But we do KNOW that Mike Yon did NOT FABRICATE the story about Al Queda baking the boy.
THAT, Nunaim, or more aptly,Numnut, is the difference between Beauchamp who insisted his stories did actually happen, but were in truth fabricated ( apparently he seemed confused about WHERE that the mess hall incident took place -mistaking Kuwait for Iraq) and Mike Yon's dispatch which is detailed in location, names, conversations, witnesses, and discerns between irrevocable fact and a small part of a story that is being shared as part of a bigger story about how Al Queda operated in Baquba.
You keep insisting that Bob needs to seek proof from Mike about this story,but he doesn't because the proof is in the story. If Mike had FABRICATED any of this story then why have NONE OF THE MEN HE NAMES in this dispatch come forward to deny what he wrote??
It bears repeating that you and your lemmings have no leg to stand on with regards to your bogus accusations about Mike Yon and your useless attempt to diminish his credibility.
Mike's credibility is not in question by the worlds most respected journalists- especially those in the liberal MSM, only by a bunch of foolish left wing bloggers.
Using his name to attract attention to your blogs, to try to diminish his reputation and credibility and and to perpetuate some ludicrous assertion that Bob only attacks left wing writers serves to prove just how freaking stupid and desperate you are.
Posted by: Tara at August 25, 2007 09:02 AM (CeELz)
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Wow.
Tara, I can't add a single thing to that.
Except, perhaps,
BRAVO!
Posted by: C-C-G at August 25, 2007 06:12 PM (447LE)
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I wouldn't hold your breath expecting any specifics back from Horton. As a noted Human Rights lawyer and journalist he is unlikely to trifle with mere blogs. As a haughty lefty who sees Iraq as a purely ideological struggle, he will not want to get pinned down when he is throwing unsupported bullshit against the wall. Generalities yes, specifics, hell no.
He frames the Beauchamp matter in purely ideological terms rather than as a debunking of fables that strained the credibility of knowledeable observers. Once strained, the reluctance on the part of TNR to disavow the stories added credence to the suspicion that there may have been an ideological motivation behind their publication. The profile of Foer in this month's Columbia Magazine noted at Powerline certainly does nothing to diminish this suspicion.
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 25, 2007 07:07 PM (0pZel)
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Shorter Tara:
I'm CAREFULLY not going on the RECORD as saying the event HAPPENED, but only LIEberals will question THE FACT that it HAPPENED, because it ADVANCES the NARRATIVE I'm PUSHING.
Bonus Tara:
I'm going to MENTION Beauchamp in my TIRADE even though the PERSON I'm REPLYING TO didn't mention him, mainly because WE ON THE RIGHT are obsessed with BEAUCHAMP, and we can't stop talking ABOUT HIM. Beauchamp's dreamy, isn't he? I can't get him out of my mind...
Posted by: nunaim at August 25, 2007 07:14 PM (wCRif)
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nunaim, two points:
Point the First: Tara never, I say again,
never says that what was related in the story ever actually happened. In fact, she says:
At NO point did Mike say the story was true
Apparently you need to invest in reading comprehension classes.
Point the Second: you've been present in every Beauchamp thread that I have seen here on CY.
If we conservatives are obsessed with Beauchamp, apparently you are too.
Or obsession might not have anything to do with it.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 25, 2007 07:22 PM (447LE)
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Hmmm. Last spring? The suggestion that the "incident" of last spring isn't the only "neocon" lie? I'm with you on one point, however: no lying in the news. Ever. By anyone. Even so, there are a few interesting questions that might be wise to have answered before digging too deeply into this "situation:"
(1) If Mr. Horton was so concerned about this incident and the myriad other incidents to which he alludes, why did he restrain himself from reporting them when they occurred? Liberals haven't been shy at exposing alleged conservative perfidy to this point, so why the reticence to publish potentially juicy and damaging stories? Why did he wait until now, when the outcry for complete disclosure on the part of TNR is so strong? Perhaps that's just a coincidence, but it would be interesting to know.
(2) Why not expose the "liar(s)" immediately? Why not name names, if the truth is so belatedly important? Of course, without names, dates, times, it's much more difficult to investigate Mr. Horton's allegations, but surely he's not obfuscating?
(3) What relationship, if any, does Mr. Horton have with Mr. Foer or with anyone working at TNR? What contact has he had with anyone working at or for TNR?
Just food for thought...
Posted by: Mike99 at August 25, 2007 08:09 PM (eD2kz)
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Point the First: Tara never, I say again, never says that what was related in the story ever actually happened. In fact, she says:
At NO point did Mike say the story was true.
Apparently you need to invest in reading comprehension classes.
Oh, yes: don't people always spend paragraphs explaining things that they don't believe happened?
The sweet smell of history being rewritten, with just a dash of conspiracy theory thrown in by Mike99.
I'll bet Foer's a member of the Trilateral Commission!!
Posted by: nunaim at August 25, 2007 08:28 PM (wCRif)
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Nunaim,
Tara quotes the relevant paragraph. In it, Michael Yon presents the story as something an Iraqi citizen told a translator.
Can't you read? Just how stupid are you?
Posted by: lyle at August 25, 2007 09:05 PM (6cFp4)
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nunaim, you are purposefully taking things out of content, well past the point of gross misrepresentation.
Goodbye.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 25, 2007 09:39 PM (HcgFD)
Posted by: C-C-G at August 25, 2007 09:52 PM (447LE)
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You people are arguing with Libs who still hold up the "16 words" of the SOTU address as a lie when it is incapable of being a lie. Anyone feel like they are wasting their breath?
Posted by: MAJGross at August 25, 2007 09:57 PM (USGNE)
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Horton appears to be a full tilt hoony lib. peruse some of his daily web postings for Harpers. I particularly liked his paranoid screed from May 3, 2007 about Bush targeting the media in Iraq to control the message about the war - strike that - he says they are not REALLY targeted:
May 3, 2007
Is it hyperbole to say that the Bush Administration has gone to war against journalists? Increasingly, this claim is a literal truth. Those who would dismiss the claim should contemplate some hard facts from the real battlefields of the “war on terror” in Iraq and Afghanistan. In Iraq, over a hundred journalists have been killed – a multiple of the number who died in World War II – and a large part of that number fell to American arms. I don’t suggest that the U.S. soldiers intentionally targeted them; but it does appear that historical rules that shielded journalists on the battlefield have disappeared, and that this has led to deaths. And with respect to certain foreign press organizations, like al-Jazeera, intentional targeting is now documented.
The above was just an excerpt, but it explains where his position derives. What rules protecting journalists were relaxed exactly? What the hell is he talking about?
http://harpers.org/archive/2007/05/horton-20070504cryp
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 25, 2007 10:10 PM (0pZel)
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Anyone feel like they are wasting their breath?
Every time I'm arguing with a liberal.
Posted by: John in CA at August 25, 2007 10:14 PM (PQVEt)
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From Katherine Stapp, at IPS, via
Asia Media Forum responding to the deaths of all journalists in Iraq, as of 07 JUL 2006:
"FS: So far, CPJ has found only case where a journalist was killed by Iraqi forces, and, even in that case, the circumstances remain unclear. Most journalists who have been killed in Iraq have been murdered by insurgent forces or have otherwise been killed in insurgent attacks. Incidents involving U.S. military forces have been the second-leading-cause of death for journalists in Iraq.
IPS: So far, the number of journalists deliberately targeted (3
and those killed in crossfire or other acts of war (36) are roughly equivalent. Do you see a trend in either direction?
FS: Indeed, most journalists killed in Iraq have been murdered, usually gangland-style, in direct retaliation for their work. While nearly as many journalists have been killed in crossfire and many other acts of war. I don't think the trend in Iraq is necessarily changing. But here is food for thought. If one looks at CPJ's achives going back over the past decade, or even the previous decade, one consistent and alarming trend stands out: about three out of four journalists killed on the job are not killed on the battlefield; they have instead been murdered outright in direct reprisal for their reporting. Most of these journalists are local, investigative reporters. Even more alarming, in nearly nine out of 10 of these journalist murder cases, no alleged perpetrators have been prosecuted at all. The most murderous nations since 2000 are the Philippines, Iraq, Colombia, Bangladesh and Russia.
IPS: How bad is the situation on the ground in terms of the control, or lack of it, of the various armed forces? It appears that outside the bunkers that protect the occupying forces and their allies, widespread chaos and violence reign. How can a journalist, especially a local journalist, prepare for such coverage? What does it mean to be a freelancer in Iraq? What is possible for a freelancer in terms of making a living, securing some degree of freedom of expression and covering the conflict?
FS: Iraq today is the most dangerous conflict to cover in memory, and there is no easy or guaranteed way to cover the war and stay safe. The risks are tremendous from foreign correspondents, including even well-known Western news anchors on a Baghdad assignment to Iraqi fixers working closer to home. Freelancers whether foreign or local face additional risks. CPJ encourages freelancers especially to make sure that they have adequate health insurance, and we encourage news organisations to provide health insurance, in particular, to those whom they rely on. Security training is another important element that we also recommend. There is an organisation, the International News Safety Institute (that includes CPJ), that has been providing subsidised training for Iraqi fixers and others in Iraq."
At IPS Ms. Stapp appears to cover an array of issues on the left, including world socialist get-togethers. Here she is debunking the CPJ claim of the US being a leading or, indeed, second-leading cause of death in Iraq. She previously cites only 13 cases with US military involvement, so that would be 13 out of 74. By her own account 90% of all Iraqi reporter deaths are by this thing known as 'murder' on the street in a lawless way. At that point in 2006 the Iraqi Police were having a hard time standing up and were the frequent target of killings by insurgents, coming right after civilians if memory serves. She places this at the feet of insurgents. Thus #1 is insurgents, #2 is gangland slayings (of which there are a number of such with the typical shot to the back of the head concept). There may be some overlap as criminal and insurgent interests overlap in some areas. That puts the US no higher than #3. Perhaps we can get some reporting on organized crime activity in Iraq from 'journalists'?
So, this does seem to point out a problem with the 'US being the leading cause of death of reporters in Iraq' concept. It is a very violent place where al Qaeda, in particular, is trying to formulate the news environment so only news they like in the way they like gets reported, thus the targeting of independent journalists is done for a specific reason: to form the news environment and reporting. Of particular note is the number of Iraqi journalists, not foreign journalists, being killed and unreported in the US.
Perhaps a 'journalist' could report on that...
Posted by: ajacksonian at August 26, 2007 06:30 AM (oy1lQ)
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at August 26, 2007 01:50 PM (Lgw9b)
27
Well, I am going to have to find the various reports, but this reporters is going on out a limb to insist that it was a lie written on the same day that a battle took place.
Reading various reports, it seems that Haifa street has consistently waivered back and forth from "peaceful and 'bucolic'" to a battle front. One such report was a rather historic view of the area through various units and strategies that were put in place. The current unit in control of the area now has combat out posts and Joint Strategic Stations that remain open. I will find the report, but according to this US commander, the original owners of that area had "pacified it" and then turned it over to Iraqi police, not making any substantial regular patrols or leaving forces in the area. The police, of course, were infiltrated and further, undermanned and outgunned, thus, unable to hold it allowing insurgents of all stripes to move back in.
The movement of this US force was because the strategy had called for turning over "pacified" areas to the Iraqis and moving US forces to other areas. Largely because the manpower did not allow for leaving significant forces and because we looked at each area as a separate battle to be fought and pacified before moving on.
This officer noted that, as soon as the previous unit pulled back, Haifa street was once again infiltrated by both Sunni and Shia militias and turned into a battle field. Something that we should not be shocked about since Haifa St is literally the fault line between Sadr city, a Mahdi Army Shi'ite enclave, and multiple Sunni districts like Rusafah and Karkh. both long time bases for the Ba'athists AND al Qaeda in Baghdad. In fact, before Zarqawi was killed and back when he was moving his forces more strongly into Baghdad to inflict his latest strategy and when we had taken over a safe house where we found the now infamous video of Zarqawi in New Balance Tennis shoes unable to fire a captured US weapon, they also found a document that discussed the problems with their forces located in these areas (Rusafah and Karkh; which also abutts the green zone), the removal of some leaders who were "too hot" (because US forces were tracking them) in the area and strategies that they might undertake to attack certain strategic locations like the central police station (located across the river), certain ministries, etc, all accessible by Haifa St.
Haifa St also being the location of a rather infamous Sunni extremist mosque (the Imam Mohammed?) that openly preached "death to Americans" from its outside loud speakers. Its been raided so many times by the Iraqis and Americans, you no longer really hear about it. I believe the Imam was either replaced or significantly chastised. I believe, in the documentary "Gunner Palace", the officer in charge of the area told the Imam flat out that he would have him arrested the next time such blatant calls for attacking Americans were heard.
So, this reporter is being rather disingenuous. Possibly even the other reporter who said it was peaceful. It probably was on that day and it has been for many days and weeks before it had been re-infiltrated. In fact, recent reports indicate that it is once again "peaceful" and shops are opening. But, earlier this year, there was a video featured at blackfive showing a battle between US and Iraqi forces v. "insurgents" (their association with AQI, Ba'athists or Sadrists was unknown). Before that, it had flip-flopped between quiet and deserted to outright battles with the Iraq police and any US force that did venture into the area. I really have to find the report because the officer in question was very honest in his portrayal of the history of the area and his units forced need to basically "re-take" the area, driving out the insurgents "again". this is, in fact, how the insurgency and counter-insurgency had been fought. This is, in fact, what happens when the previous strategy was in place. This is, in fact, a truth you could apply to any area in Iraq, including Ramadi and Fallujah where the area went back and forth several times before the Shiehks were finally convinced to throw their entire lot in with us.
Therefore, I think this fellow is making something out of nothing and, is, in fact, ignoring the total history of haifa st throughout the battle to secure Baghdad and Iraq. he is also ignoring the new strategy of continuing presence and outposts to avoid this continual back and forth control of the street. It hardly signifies a "lie" on behalf of the "neocons" or a static "truth" that cannot change depending on the month and strategy.
I'll look for the reports, but I believe they are linked somewhere in Blackfive and Mudville Gazette.
I think the reporter in question, should this idiot you are quoting, actually indicate the time and date, would be found to be telling the truth for that specific time frame. It probably was rather peaceful and "bucolic" with shops opening, etc while he was there. It doesn't make his report a lie. It is just a snapshot among the many back and forth conditions of this street. To point it out as some sort of "proof" of "neocon" lies over the entire war is like trying to extrapolate the rather stupid anecdotes of Beauchamp as definitive of US forces as a whole.
In short, I give no credence to his lousy and unfounded attack. Anyone who has actually been paying attention to the Battle for Baghdad would know the truth is in between and believe neither represents the final disposition of the street or the war.
Posted by: kat-missouri at August 26, 2007 02:27 PM (io+Si)
28
Oh...and Haifa St is literally miles long and transits Baghdad from South East to North West. Meaning that, on any given day, one section of Haifa St could be exactly as the one reporter noted while on the other end of the street, miles away, a gun battle could take place and the reporter would not even know it while another one could be right in the middle of it.
So, yeah, if this guy can't name the date, time and exact location on the street the fight was raging to compare to the other reporters date, time and exact location on haifa st, I call this Scott character at least a misleading, disingenuous ideologue if not a liar.
Maps and outlines of various areas including denoting "haifa St" and how long it is:
http://themiddleground.blogspot.com/2006/05/battle-for-baghdad-ii-zarqawi-on.html
http://themiddleground.blogspot.com/2006/05/battle-for-baghdad-ii-zarqawis-alamo.html
We're talking miles and through different mixed and ethnically singular neighborhoods.
Scott Norton is an idiot.
Posted by: kat-missouri at August 26, 2007 03:19 PM (io+Si)
29
Calling a liberal an idiot is redundant.
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at August 26, 2007 03:27 PM (Lgw9b)
30
Calling a liberal an idiot is redundant.
Not necessarily.
There are those who are intelligent and who embrace liberalism in the quest for personal power.
I call those "evil."
Posted by: C-C-G at August 26, 2007 04:10 PM (447LE)
31
Finally, just so I am providing accurate information, the Sunni Mosque that was routinely raided for calling for attacks against Americans and harboring insurgents was the al Hanifa Mosque in Adhamiya on the Northwest end of Haifa St.
Battle for Baghdad
Al Adhamiya district also contains
the al Hanifa mosque that has been raided many times. It is widely known to spread anti-American and anti-government information via sermons as well as the use of their external PA system. Also suspected of providing sanctuary to insurgents and storing weapons.
The purpose of the raid was not immediately clear but some worshippers, gathered outside the mosque, said the security forces had arrested the mosque's imam, Shaikh Muayid al-Adhami.
According to the US Commander of the district, in 2004, he had warned Adhami several times about mosque activities and finally had him arrested when he continued his activities. Adhamiya is largely Sunni rejectionist and Ba'athists. Zarqawi tries to make common cause with them to prepare the way for his arrival and operations in Rusafah. He may even be hoping for "joint operations".
After the curfew was lifted on Tuesday afternoon, residents gingerly came out onto the street once more. Meanwhile, a statement issued by al-Qaeda in Iraq, the country's most prominent insurgent organization, promised more fighting on Wednesday.
"Al-Qaeda in Iraq is announcing a new raid to avenge the Sunnis at Adhamiyah and the other areas, and the raid will start with the dawn of Wednesday, if God wishes," the statement said. "The Shiite areas will be an open battlefield for us. We will strike anything we face."
While just a mile or so down the road is "al Thawra" or "Sadr City" and a little further down the road is the Sunni neighborhood of Rusafah and so on and so on.
I really could go on and on about what is the reality of the area. Before we lynch somebody as a liar, know more about the area and tell this Scott character to give up his date, time, and exact location for either alleged event. Until then, this is a macabre dance to try and prove we aren't "biased". Something that is pretty foolish and plays into this character's own ideologically biased fantasy world.
Posted by: kat-missouri at August 26, 2007 04:41 PM (io+Si)
32
Wretchard made a similar point to kat-nissou's last post, but with respect to the battle of Tal-Afar. Two reports on the same day - one portraying units out looking for insurgents and finding nothing (and implying the US military effort was fruitless.) Another right fromt he middle of a fire fight. Both were true, crrectly reported what the reported saw, the narrative (quagmire, hopelessness)thrown in with the first report not so much.
Posted by: Buck Smith at August 26, 2007 04:51 PM (7m8wS)
33
I did think I could find the post by Wretchard, but whaddiyah know I did:
http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/2005/09/news-magazine-of-mysteries.html#links
Posted by: buck smith at August 26, 2007 04:54 PM (7m8wS)
34
This reminds me of reading one of the stories in "A Piece of My Heart." It told of the rocket and mortar attacks on the hospital at Pleiku in Viet Nam. I happened to be stationed in the Pleiku area during the time that the story took place and the frequency and intensity of the storied attacks would have been notable to me. I won't begin to claim that none of them took place, but I'd bet that not nearly as many took place as was stated.
Just like those Haifa Street battles that may or may not have ever happened, the peaceful neighborhoods vs. constant street battles of the opposing press positions, may depend a lot on which side of the aisle one stands.
I for one, tend to believe the soldier who claims things seem to be more nearly peaceful. But, that's just me.
Woody
Posted by: Oran Woody at August 26, 2007 05:11 PM (NHGdT)
35
He's pretty clearly talking about Kristol's "
Nothing to Fear but the Polls Themselves," in which Kristol quotes an unnamed friend:
We went through two of the worst Sunni neighborhoods in Baghdad ... heavily infested with al Qaeda and other terrorists who terrorize the population and drive them to support or at least tolerate attacks against us. But the kids on the streets -- and there were many -- waved, smiled, asked for candy. The locals give us tips and ask us to get the terrorists out of the area and, above all, to protect them. We walked through a market off of Haifa Street -- remember, the site of that long-running gun-battle back in January that made so much news? The market was thriving, flourishing, the local U.S. commander knew everyone and everyone knew him. The kids thronged around us, laughing, asking for candy.
This friend must've written Kristol in the two weeks prior to 21 May -- the article seems to have gone online 14 May, so let's see what Haifa Street was like in late April/early May 2006.
From Bassem Mroue, "Attacks on bridges aim to geographically divide Baghdad," April 25, 2007:
Some Shiites who commute across the river say that after the Sarafiyah bridge was destroyed, they must now drive through the Sunni areas of Haifa street to the south or the Sunni neighborhood of Azamiyah to the north.
Verdict: Dangerous.
From Ann Scott Tyson, "The Two Sides of Baghdad Barriers,"
Washington Post, April 30, 2007
Across the river in the predominantly Sunni district along Haifa Street, Col. Bryan Roberts, commander of the 1st Cavalry Division's 2nd Brigade, said an increase in vehicle bombs had led him to introduce a plan to barricade five markets in the district. "My biggest concerns security-wise are the current attack methods, the VBIEDs, suicide vests," he said.
Verdict: Still Pretty Dangerous
On 9 May, Ann Scott Tyson, in "Commanders in Iraq See 'Surge' Into '08; Pentagon to Deploy 35,000 Replacement Troops," noted:
In the relatively safe Haifa Street area of Baghdad, monthly attacks fell by about 50 percent from January to February but since then have increased slightly, including a significant increase in suicide car bomb attacks.
Verdict: "Relatively" Safe.
Ironic quotation marks because things did not go well on 10 May, as reported by Agence France Presse:
Meanwhile, residents were woken by the sounds of a battle near Haifa Street, a main city thoroughfare that was once notorious as a three-way battlefield between Sunni insurgents, Shiite militia and Iraqi security forces.
For almost two hours explosions and automatic gunfire echoed among the restive district's tall concrete buildings, but officials were not immediately able to explain what was going on.
Verdict: Not Very Safe At All
According to an 18 May security report, "US gives Iraq two months to 'rectify' political course":
"The US troops have arrested a person called Shaykh Haydar at the home of his sister, whose husband was also arrested. The US troops said that Shaykh Haydar's brother-in-law is responsible for masterminding many killings, abductions, and acts of displacement on Haifa Street in central Baghdad."
Verdict: A Little Safer, But Still Pretty Dangerous
So I wonder who Kristol's anonymous friend is, and whether the emphasis should be on refuting
Horton, since his account better squares with what I could pull up on Lexis/Nexis. Do you really believe Kristol to be an objective, non-ideological writer? Moreover, do you really believe his
anonymous friend is?
Posted by: SEK at August 26, 2007 06:09 PM (9FbHz)
36
SEK, the update I posted hours ago shows Horton was in Baghdad on Haifa Street in 2006, and I have not seen anything saying he'd been there before or since that visit. All the articles you've cited come from a year later, in 2007.
Horton may be many things, but I don't think he's a prophet.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 26, 2007 06:47 PM (HcgFD)
37
It's really neither here nor there. Haifa St has continually gone back and forth between peaceful and calm and outright battles. While one section might be secure, another section might be an insurgents' playground.
It's almost five miles long. I could be having chai at an outdoor restaurant on one end while a pitched battle was happening on the other. On the same day. On the same street called Haifa in the city of Baghdad.
Finally, no one should take any one report from any one resource on anyone day and try to conflate it into the definitive view of the street, Baghdad or Iraq as a whole. It is literally defined in inches, feet, yards, miles and district to district.
Posted by: kat-missouri at August 26, 2007 06:52 PM (io+Si)
38
I'd seen the update, but it's not unusual for correspondents to cover an area multiple times -- esp. when the one in question passed the Iraqi bar exam a few years back.
Another way to put it: the Kristol article squares with Horton's description, and given that he says "back last spring," it seems to logical to assume he was talking about 2007. Until evidence to the contrary's presented, I'm not sure why you're assuming "last spring" meant "a year ago last spring."
RE: Haifa Street
From what I remember, it's a little over two miles long, and they're describing the same Sunni-controlled sections of Haifa.
But I can turn this around: even if Horton's talking about 2007, not 2006,
Kristol's reportage on Haifa is suspect. I expect a post about the veracity of his anonymous correspondent's observations
post haste.
Posted by: SEK at August 26, 2007 07:12 PM (9FbHz)
39
Horton writes his post to specifically present the picture of a man reading the news one evening after his neighborhood had been under constant combat all day, reading with anger and disbelief that some claims to have walked through the same neighborhood, but instead of violence he saw scenes "a peaceful, pleasant, upscale community."
Horton
specifically cites two things that he said the un-named writer recounted--the presence of an American patrol, children playing in the street--that he claimed could not have happened
on that day, in that neighborhood because of the running gun battles.
Is this a honest presentation? Obviously, it is not. Either the unnamed member of "the core neocon pack" was on that section of Haifa Street in a peaceful time, or Horton was hunkered down to avoid fire: both cannot co-exist at the same place, at the same time.
Someone, obviously, is not telling the truth.
SEK, Horton is clearly writing about a report he read that day, filed that day, which was in the spring of 2006. Please quit trying to justify being a year off; it's rather unbecoming.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 26, 2007 08:41 PM (HcgFD)
40
In the Democracy Now interview, Scott Horton says he lived on Haifa Street for three weeks. If we combine that with the knowledge that he left Iraq shortly after his client was released around 4/10/06, then we can surmise that he was probably living on Haifa Street in 2006 from about 3/20 until 4/10.
I don't have access to Lexis/Nexis, but a Factiva search turned up only 1 instance of the phrase "Haifa Street" during that time frame. It was clearly not the article in question.
Posted by: WFR at August 26, 2007 09:02 PM (ODy3M)
41
WFR, I'm deaf, so I didn't try to listen to the interview. I'll do a Lexis/Nexis search for 2006 tomorrow, however, and see what turns up.
Confederate Yankee, there's absolutely nothing unbecoming about assuming that by "last spring" someone means "last spring." It's an entirely rational assumption, and I feel no shame in having made it. If I'm wrong, so be it, I can pull up the articles for 2006 and see what fits in that time-frame.
That said, the Kristol article
is by William Kristol, a prominent neo-con. It
does talk about an American patrol on Haifa St. and children playing in the street. And it
was from "last spring," fitting the time-line Horton presented. I'm not sure the reason for your tone, except that you seem certain that because he was in Iraq a year ago last spring, that means he couldn't have been there last spring too. Which, frankly, strikes me as illogical. Again, I could be incorrect here, but I don't think I'm doing anything "unbecoming."
However, I'll note that you didn't respond to my remark about when your post on Kristol will be posted. After all, the published accounts of Haifa St. in April/May 2007 don't correspond to the one Kristol presented in
The Weekly Standard. Why not bolster your rhetorical bluster with some proof that you're willing to investigate inconsistencies regardless of ideological affiliation? Kristol's relayed report on Haifa St. this April/May is contradicted by the DOD's own press releases. Where's the outrage?
Posted by: SEK at August 26, 2007 09:46 PM (9FbHz)
42
I looked over all of Horton's 2007 web postings for Harpers yesterday, sometimes more than three per day. There was nothing to indicate he was living or visiting Baghdad for any period of time this past spring unless he chose not to write about it, an event I find highly unlikely given his antiwar views and proclivity for Bush bashing.
SEK, you should take a look at his writings instead of taking a shot in the dark. I see nothing inconsistent with Kristol relaying the observations of his friend with the concurrent reporting and concerns over bombings cited elsewhere in this thread. Perhaps your ideological biases are showing the way they did on the Beauchamp threads at Protein Wisdom. Time to look in the mirror, SEK.
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 26, 2007 10:12 PM (0pZel)
43
daleyrocks, you mean the "ideological biases" which allowed me to admit, openly and unreservedly, that I'd been wrong about Beauchamp, and that he'd violated the codes of journalistic conduct I thought
TNR would've at least superficially abided by? Sorry, but I'm not blinded by ideology, as any of the folks at Jeff's place (not to mention Jeff himself) will tell you. I evaluate the facts before me, honestly, and draw my conclusions from them. Right now, I know that Horton claimed he was there "last spring." If you can tell me why "last spring"
definitively refers to "a year ago last spring," I'll buy it. I understand that he was there in the spring of 2006 ... but that doesn't preclude him having been there in the spring of 2007.
Anyway, this is a moot point, as I'm willing to grant that I'm wrong and look at the evidence from spring of 2006. I'm not wedded to my theory, I'm looking at the best available evidence. And yes, there
are inconsistencies in the picture Kristol paints when you consider what happened on Haifa St. in April/May 2007. The rhetoric's loaded -- the terrorists quickly disappear and are replaced by smiling children requesting candy ... when, as the other reports indicate, that area was prone to extreme violence at the very time the Kristol's correspondent writes about smiling children requesting candy.
At
best, Kristol's guilty of manipulating his friend's report to emphasize the narrative he's wedded to -- that the surge is working, Baghdad's getting better, &c. That he didn't mention the destruction of the bridge into the area, the "significant increase in car bomb attacks," &c. demonstrates as much. I suppose my bias is responsible for my trusting the words of Col. Bryan Roberts, commander of the 1st Cavalry Division's 2nd Brigade ... but now, as on Protein Wisdom, I'm going to trust the words of a soldier over those of an anonymous commenter.
Or do you not remember the reason I got involved in those thread? If you're wondering, it's that someone over here would countermand the words of one of our soldiers over there. Yes, it turns out Beauchamp lied, but that doesn't change anything for me: they're over there, fighting for us, and it's sad that some of you would dismiss them so quickly just because their assessment fails to jibe with yours.
Posted by: SEK at August 26, 2007 10:37 PM (9FbHz)
44
SEK - I don't remember you admitting you were wrong at PW. I just remember your attitude and bias, but I could easily have missed your admission.
I'm not disputing Col. Roberts at all as I said above. Here's an excerpt from either the same oa a different Ann Scott Tyson piece from April 30, 2007:
Although sectarian killings have decreased in Baghdad since February, when tens of thousands of U.S. and Iraqi troops began arriving, attacks with the vehicle-borne improvised explosive devices, known as VBIEDs, have increased. Supply of the weapons, which commanders liken to a low-tech precision bomb, is virtually unlimited. "It's a sophisticated network, but not a sophisticated weapon," said Maj. Gen. Joseph F. Fil Jr., commander of U.S. forces in Baghdad. "The difference is a set of keys and a driver."
"We'll come back here tonight and clean up" the debris, said [Bryan Dodd], 31, of Killeen, Tex. Before the bombing, Dodd said, the market area was so quiet he had chatted with residents over tea. "They said I could eat with them and didn't need any body armor," he said, but added somberly, "Our job is to be constantly looking for the threat."
U.S. and Iraqi commanders are planning more measures to guard against vehicle bombs, including adding barriers to parking lots such as the one outside the Sadriya market. "We will put in some more barriers," [Stuart Toney] said. "We had suggested it before, but the locals were adamant we didn't. Now they are receptive."
If you were a close follower of events on the ground over there you would have known about a shift in insurgent tactics as well as a change in coalition response this year. The erection of vehicle barriers at markets was a more widespread development this year. The peaceful scene of sitting around without body armor would not be inconsistent with that of Kristol's friend, even though danger is still present. See how this works SEK?
Nice of you to drop by.
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 26, 2007 11:03 PM (0pZel)
45
SEK - I'm also not wedded to 2006 versus 2007, but was merely pointing out what I observed from scanning his prolific output on Harpers weblog from earlier this year. Common usage would argue that he meant 2007, but he gave not hint of it in his postings this year. Strange.
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 26, 2007 11:15 PM (0pZel)
46
Does SEK have a problem deciphering 2006 and 2007? I can't grasp what he's talking about. The story is about the spring of 2006 and he keeps bringing up something Kristol said in May of 2007.
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at August 26, 2007 11:25 PM (Lgw9b)
47
Funny, I've looked in the comments here and other blogs and no response from Horton. What a surprise! Seems such a simple thing, to throw read meat at the knuckle draggers and watch them knaw. But alas, we already know that Horton won't provide a date and that the only response will be more shrill and deranged attacks on the "neocons" over the Beauchamp expose.
So nice of everyone to be so diplomatic and at least pretend he would be willing to defend his [snicker] honor.
The real story in all of this is how often these "esteemed" reporters for mainstream lefty mags just make shit up. While we always knew they did it, it is astonishing that they are unablet to correct even the most obvious problems and instead act like sociopaths, daring their readers with even bigger and bolder lies.
Posted by: Becky at August 27, 2007 12:29 AM (CTxe6)
48
Funny, I've looked in the comments here and other blogs and no response from Horton. What a surprise! Seems such a simple thing, to throw read meat at the knuckle draggers and watch them knaw. But alas, we already know that Horton won't provide a date and that the only response will be more shrill and deranged attacks on the "neocons" over the Beauchamp expose.
So nice of everyone to be so diplomatic and at least pretend he would be willing to defend his [snicker] honor.
The real story in all of this is how often these "esteemed" reporters for mainstream lefty mags just make sh** up. While we always knew they did that, it is astonishing that they are unable to correct even the most obvious problems and instead act like sociopaths, daring their readers with even bigger and bolder lies.
Posted by: Becky at August 27, 2007 12:31 AM (CTxe6)
49
Funny, I've looked in the comments here and elsewhere, and no response from Horton. Seems such a simple thing, to throw that read meat at the knuckle draggers and watch them gnaw. But alas, we already know that Horton won't provide a date and that the only response will be more shrill and deranged attacks on the "neocons".
So nice of everyone to be so diplomatic and at least pretend Horton might want to defend his [snicker] honor.
The real story in all of this is how often these "esteemed" reporters for mainstream lefty mags just make sh** up. It is astonishing that they have no ability to correct even the most obvious problems and instead act like sociopaths, daring their readers with even bigger and bolder lies.
Posted by: Becky at August 27, 2007 12:38 AM (CTxe6)
50
Funny, I've looked in the comments here and elsewhere, and still no response from Horton. Seems such a simple thing, to throw that red meat at the knuckle draggers and watch them gnaw.
But alas, we already know that Horton won't provide a date and that the only response will be more shrill and deranged attacks on the "neocons". So nice of everyone to be diplomatic and at least pretend Horton might want to defend his [snicker] honor.
The real story in all of this is how often these "esteemed" reporters from mainstream lefty mags just make sh** up. It is astonishing that they have no ability to correct even the most obvious problems and responding instead like sociopaths, daring their readers with even bigger and bolder lies.
Posted by: Becky at August 27, 2007 12:42 AM (CTxe6)
51
I'm really sorry about the excess posts. It didn't look like they went through. My bad.
Posted by: Becky at August 27, 2007 12:46 AM (CTxe6)
52
The roasted child story is important not because of of its truth or falseness (it seems dodgy to me).
It is important because it shows what the Iraqi attitude (in some sectors at least) is towards Al Q.
Posted by: M. Simon at August 27, 2007 06:19 AM (aciBF)
53
I would suggest that we try to not be drawn into arguments over Michael Yon, baked children, hypocritical bloggers, and so forth. This really boils down to something simple: Scott Horton, in an article posted to a well known magazine's website, has accused a reporter of deliberately lying, and also used that as an example to make a blanket accusation against the "Neocon corner" and their "war fables." If he has any evidence that reporters are deliberately lying about their experiences in Iraq, then he should provide that evidence. He should also have no problem providing the exact dates and any other specific information he can about the time he spent at Haifa streen in Iraq.
Anything else being commented on here is just window dressing. All that is being asked here of Mr. Horton is that he back up his accusation. That's it. It was he who made the accusation, so it is incumbent upon him, and not the accused, to provide the evidence.
Posted by: RJ at August 27, 2007 09:10 AM (su1ER)
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It is pretty clear that Haifa Street has a history as varied as the route is long. My bit of research shows that the area has been hotly contested throughout the insurgency, but that the most recent reports--beginning in May 2007--are the most accurate. Wes Morgan is no neocon hack and he writes descriptively about the area. His posts at The Fourth Rail are worth a read to anyone boasting intellectual honesty as a character trait.
Kristol may well be relating comments provided to him by Kagen. The two men are certain to correspond professionally, and Kristol's essay could be rehashing what Kagen described to him.
Horton very clearly has not been to Haifa Street in over a year. There is no evidence whatsoever to show his presence there at the time that Kristol and Kagen describe.
What's ironic is that Bob started this discussion in an intellectually honest attempt to determine if there was a Beauchamp on the right. He'd come across an accusation that someone had "fabricated" a story, and he expressed a desire to have the truth be told. That is, Confederate Yankee appeared set to castigate a conservative for the same thing we've raked TNR over the coals with. Instead, it looks like the prevarications are coming from the left. Again. Heh...
Tara and kat-Missouri have research skills that are teh bomb. Y'all rock.
Posted by: Dave at August 27, 2007 09:12 AM (bF9wi)
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How long is Haifa street?
Posted by: Bill Mead at August 27, 2007 10:37 AM (DsyJO)
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Yes, there seems to be a disjoint between Harper's 2006 experience, and Kristol's 2007 report. If nothing else, the events described are a year apart.
Please note that Harper did
not mention a specific name or date in his 2007 blog post. Also please note that he only provided
one (vague) example.
Normally when one is trying to establish a specfic claim, one attempts to provide as many specific data points (i.e. facts) as possible, for no other reason that it takes at least two data points to establish a trend.
In other words, if Harper wants to establish a claim that there's a neocon bias, or a neocon habit fabulism regarding war reporting, he is obliged to provide more than one "fer instance," and he would do well to give as many specifics as possible.
The very first thing that jumped out at me when I read Beauchamp's work was the complete absence of names, dates, ranks, or outfits. I have concluded that it is very nearly a definitive law that any claim made about American armed forces abuses is not trustworthy when the story-teller can't or won't provide those four things. Beauchamp's claims tended to validate that "law."
CY, maybe -assuming Harper ever even answers you- you can ask him for more instances of "neocon ... war fables."
About the only thing I can think of relates more to "quick on the trigger," as opposed to "fables," and that's when everyone jumped all over every news release that claimed Hussein had been killed or captured. Again. Didn't we kill him about 3 times before they finally get him? A similar problem occured several times when press releases announced that someone on the infamous "deck of cards" had been killed or captured, and writers/bloggers would run with it immediately, only to find out -oops!- wasn't him...
Posted by: Casey Tompkins at August 27, 2007 11:12 AM (xdVg/)
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"For example, did you ever follow up on the "Al Qaeda roasting kids and serving them to their parents" story? That whole thing seemed far-fetched, to put the most charitable spin on it, but did you accept it because it came via Yon despite the fact that he provided no backup for the tale? Perhaps I missed it, but I don't remember reading any email exchanges with Yon where you asked him to defend his story.
Posted by: nunaim "
Yon did not report that incident as fact. He reported what the translator was being told by an Iraqi. In this scenario, fact verification would involve contacting the translator and asking if that is what he communicated to Yon. If so, then Yon's reporting is verified. Now, if Yon left out the part of the translator and the Iraqi, and instead reported that Al Quaeda was baking children, then verification of the alleged incident would need to occur. Get it?
Posted by: PJ at August 27, 2007 01:00 PM (dIusl)
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It started out by CY trying to get someone to assist in possibly uncovering another "Beauchamp." Along the way, its become apparent that to ALL involved, be it a left/right reporter or blogger, the fact is/was/always will be/should be is that the so called "Fourth Estate" is
supposed to be free of personal bias in all ways shapes and forms. Unfortunately, that is no longer and issue, and because of the constant harping of both sides of the political spectrum, the future of America seems to be one similar to that of the Balkans, specifically the former Yugoslavia. Red State VS Blue State, Us VS Them... its all leading to a massive fractioning of society. Damned shame if you think about it.
The ONLY consolation that I have (personally speaking) is that for all the virulent rhetoric on both sides, its nice to see that SOME people have a grounding in reality. Specifically here on CY...
Posted by: Big Country at August 27, 2007 04:13 PM (q7b5Y)
Posted by: Karl at August 27, 2007 04:23 PM (00Q3s)
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Hey CY! As a linguist - I took a stab and trying to decipher Horton's story and he purposefully made his recount of his day on Haifa Street so non-specific that it could be any day, any year, on any part of this street.
What reporter (and editor for that matter) would permit such vagueness in an "investigative" report?
Here are some telling examples:
One example: back last spring (lack of detail), when I was living ("working", "reporting", "posted" would be much better choice of words) in Baghdad, on Haifa Street (again, no detail, what neighborhood? What hotel?), I sat (where? In your room? In an outdoor cafe?) in the evening reading a report by one of the core Neocon pack (In what context was he reading? Online? Newspaper? What was the source?). He was reporting from Baghdad, and recounted a day (a day? There are 365 of them in Iraq just as there are here in the US! more no specificity) he had spent out on a patrol with U.S. troops on Haifa Street. He described a peaceful, pleasant, upscale community. Children were out playing on the street. Men and women were out going about their daily business. Well, in fact I had been forced to spend the day “in the submarine,” as they say, missing appointments I had in town (appointments?). Why? This bucolic, marvelous Haifa Street that he described had erupted in gun battles the entire day (I recall a quite, typical Tuesday morning in September of 2001 that was as usual and typical as could be until about 10 am). In the view of my security guards, with which I readily concurred, it was too unsafe. And yes, I could hear the gunfire and watch some of the exchanges from my position (How dangerous could it have been if he decided to watch this all from his viewpoint? Didn't he need to take cover?). No American patrol had passed by and there were certainly no children playing in the street (So, he was outside on the street the entire day, watching every vehicle that passed by?). This was the point when I realized that many of these accounts were pure fabrications. (So, ONE report leads him to the conclusion that they ALL are "pure fabrications"?)
Not only should the writer be taken to task, soneone should be asking some hard questions to his editor asking for justification for such a strong accusation with so little, if any supporting evidence.
Posted by: Marc at August 27, 2007 06:04 PM (tYUVB)
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August 24, 2007
The New Republic, Tom Cruise, and Post Turtles
Dear "The Editors,"
I noticed with some bemusement earlier this week Jonathan Chait's attempt to rally the TNR faithful by attacking William Kristol, and note that Jonathan Cohn returned to that theme once again yesterday afternoon, with the slight exception of focusing on Ramesh Ponnuru's criticism of Chait's rant. I find it fascinating that you have the time to dedicate to critiques of critiques, but I'd really rather prefer that you just did your jobs as editors.
It has been precisely two weeks since your last attempt to whistle past those "legitimate questions that have been raised" about Scott Thomas Beauchamp's articles. It has been even more troubling that you have stone-walled those who have asked legitimate questions about your own investigation, which is far from transparent.
As Scott Johnson notes at Powerline this morning, Fridays seem to be a big day for TNR editors when it comes to releasing Beauchamp investigation-related news.
Towards that end, and knowing it is a little late, I'd still like to offer up my services to help you with your investigation.
You see, it doesn't often take very long to conduct a legitimate investigation into matters such as these.
For example, once I was finally able to reach Doug Coffey at BAE Systems, the company that manufacturers the Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicles that you refused to identify, it took only one email to determine that you didn't provide him with Beauchamp's dog-killing story to review for plausibility. I did, and his same-day response... well, we know how that ended up, don't we? It seems your researcher "re-reporting" the story just didn't know quite which questions to ask.
I seem to have a knack for knowing what to ask, so if you would be so kind, please provide the names of the civilian experts you claim to have interviewed during the course of your re-reporting, and I'll be happy to take a few minutes out of my day to make sure that you asked them the right questions, or for that matter, determine if you even asked the right experts the right questions.
Doing a thorough, transparent, and competent investigation doesn't take weeks.
Of course, that assumes that you want a thorough, transparent, and competent investigation.
* * *
Like you, dear readers, I find it rather doubtful that The New Republic will provide me or anyone else with the names of their civilian experts.
As details leak out, it seems Franklin Foer and his collaborators have become the cliché, and their continuing attempts to cover-up their editorial failures with even more questionable ethical violations and purposeful deceptions is worst than Beauchamp's fabulism. At this point, Franklin Foer and TNR's senior editors aren't so much editors as they are post turtles.
What's a post turtle? I recall an email where a doctor asked that same question when an old farmer whose hand he had been suturing used the term.
The farmer replied:
"When you're driving down a country road and you come across a fence post with a turtle balanced on top, that's a post turtle."
"You know he didn't get there by himself, he doesn't belong there, he doesn't know what to do while he's up there, and you just want to help the dumb thing get down."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Hmmmm.
Perhaps they're still on vacation?
Or are they on next year's vacation a little early?
Posted by: memomachine at August 24, 2007 11:25 AM (3pvQO)
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It seems that their damage control policy is two pronged:
1. Ignore the allegations, and hope people lose interest.
2. Attack the Weekly Standard to rally their "base."
Posted by: Steven at August 24, 2007 11:49 AM (FjERR)
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Too funny. Lengthy excerpt from Cohn's defense of Chait's attack on Kristol:
"Over at National Review yesterday, Ramesh Ponnuru--a conservative I respect and enjoy reading--criticized Jonathan Chait's column on Bill Kristol. In particular, Ramesh said, Jon has unfairly seized upon a particular passage in Kristol's recent editorial about liberals and the troops. It's the passage where Kristol wrote:
Having turned against a war that some of them supported, the left is now turning against the troops they claim still to support. They sense that history is progressing away from them--that these soldiers, fighting courageously in a just cause, could still win the war, that they are proud of their service, and that they will be future leaders of this country.
Ponnuru acknowledged that this is "an overheated and unfair statement," but went on to suggest that "Perhaps Jonathan Chait has made overheated and unfair statements from time to time? I don't think it would be reasonable to take one of those statements and use it to create a theory of his essential thuggishness."
Well, sure. Jon has made overheated and unfair statements from time to time. So have I. So has everybody. But this wasn't just a throw-away line. It was the premise of the whole article. That is why, I imagine, it appeared under the headline "THEY DON'T REALLY SUPPORT THE TROOPS.""
Yes, it sure sucks when the ENTIRE PREMISE of your fable comes back to bite you, doesn't it, Jonathans?
Posted by: mrobvious at August 24, 2007 01:59 PM (8Y/fG)
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We should take that turtle off his post and cook him for dinner. Mmmmm...Turtle soup!
Posted by: T.Ferg at August 24, 2007 03:39 PM (2YVh7)
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It's a shame that TNR has come to such an inglorious end. Peretz, Beinart, and Sullivan all produced quality journalism in their time--certainly nothing like the pathetic caricature it's been reduced to under Foer. On the other hand, Peretz is still around--what has he to say, I wonder?
Posted by: Nathan Tabor at August 24, 2007 04:33 PM (k3z5a)
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What part of "Scott Beauchamp burned us and we fell for it" do you not understand, Frank?
Posted by: Pablo at August 24, 2007 08:36 PM (yTndK)
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I am writing five of The New Republic's seven advertisers - VISA, General Motors, British Petroleum, Ford, and Allstate - to ask if they want their good name associated with a magazine that smeared our troops. Whether the false reports were unintentional (incompetence) or deliberate (slander), is it worth paying to support these acts to reach a shrinking audience of 60,000 subscribers? (Copy to your board of directors.)
Looking at a copy of TNR, it is a high cost production periodical - 50 glossy pages - yet subscriptions only gross $1.54 for mail and $1.15 for online customers. The news stand price is $4.95, but I am probably the only person who has ever bought one.
By focusing on the declining subscriber base and the outrageous mendacity contained in Baghdad Diarist, we may cause advertisers to rethink their patronage of TNR.
Posted by: arch at August 26, 2007 02:41 PM (w+v/Q)
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The turtle must be mocked while it is on the fence post.
Then you can have mocked turtle soup.
Posted by: M. Simon at August 27, 2007 06:48 AM (aciBF)
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August 23, 2007
The Journalism that Bloggers Actually Do (And Some Won't Discuss)
Is
this attack on one liberal journalism professor by another liberal journalism professor in a left-coast liberal newspaper missing anything?
Off the top of my head, I'd say there is an almost purposeful lack of the important contributions to original reporting from center-right blogs.
Oh, I'm sure that there is a market for those who care about an over-priced chocolatier's deceptive marketing practices, but I'm quite convinced that Rathergate, the CBS/Sixty Minutes scandal that saw Mary Mapes and Dan Rather discredited while trying to run a pre-election hit piece on President Bush using fake documents, was far more important. Driving that scandal were "buckhead" on Free Republic, Powerline with their "The Sixty-First Minute" and Charles Johnson at Little Green Footballs, who showed that forged documents were created on the only version of Microsoft Word running in 1973. Rosen, instead of giving credit to the conservative bloggers that blew this story wide open, instead links to a non-blog web site.
Rather disingenuous, if you ask me.
Charles Johnson was also a lead blogger in the "fauxtography" scandals emanating from last summer's Israeli-Hezbollah war, catching Reuters photographer Adnan Hajj photoshopping a picture of combat. Rusty Shackleford at The Jawa Report discovered another Hajj photograph where the photographer cloned elements and duplicated them. Reuters subsequently pulled more than 900 photos as a result. Literally dozens of other photos were scoured by conservative bloggers and shown to be staged and/or staged managed by HezbollahÂ’s media minders.
This raft of stories also doesn't make it on Rosen's radar, which seems to only scan left.
Ed Morrissey's coverage of "Adscam" revealed corruption that was credited as a key factor in sending the Liberal Party of Canada down to defeat in national elections.
There is also the current, on-going meltdown with Scott Beauchamp and The New Republic, exposed and led by center-right bloggers beginning with Michael Goldfarb of The Weekly Standard.
I've also had a busy couple of months myself, debunking a pair of wire service reported massacres that never occurred, revealing the hidden experts behind a ethically-bankrupt magazine's rigged investigation, embarrassing the world's oldest wire service into changing their photo attribution policies, and conclusively debunking a poorly-research Associated Press group report that sought to blame law enforcement ammunition shortages on current overseas conflicts.
One might think that most readers would find these right-generated stories marginally more interesting than an open-source software lawsuit details and chocolate exaggerations, but then, perhaps that is my bias.
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Sorry, but I think you are a little unfair – I say this despite not substantively disagreeing with your observation that the examples missed some important contributions form center-right blogs.
Let me explain myself:
To slightly oversimplify, the thesis of Skube is that blogs deserve disdain because they are long on hot air and short on elbow grease. Blogs donÂ’t do the tedious hard work of fact checking like the real media.
Rosen’s thesis is “nonsense – of course they do, let me enlighten you with examples”
Your thesis is that the Rosen list omits some important contributions. Fair (as in accurate) but unfair (as in non-responsive).
In the mathematical sense, you disprove a claim of non-existence by demonstrating a single example. ThereÂ’s no requirement that the example be representative, or exhaustive. While it may be revealing that RosenÂ’s list didnÂ’t contain some of the examples near and dear to both of us, he didnÂ’t purport to deliver a representative survey. While you dismissed the chocolate example as unimportant, I saw it as a decent and delightful example helping to illustrate the breadth of the fact checking of blobs.
In short, Skube was way off base, and Rosen adequately punctured the Skube thesis.
Phil
Posted by: Phil at August 23, 2007 02:31 PM (39DNf)
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Phil, Rosen went out of his way to go around Powerline and LGF to cite a non-blog for Rathergate. This is ignoring the biggest constributors to the story that many consider as
the story that put bloggers "on the map" as an effective check on the media.
Rosen doesn't have to be exhaustive, but he leaves out not just this most powerful example, but many of the other powerful examples of blogs doing journalism as I cited in the main article, most of which were of far more general importance than those he cited in his list, some of which were frankly obscure.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 23, 2007 02:56 PM (0BhZ5)
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I gotta go with CY on this one.
Posted by: T.Ferg at August 24, 2007 09:16 AM (2YVh7)
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Errr... he modestly said.
I would suggest that my work on The Stingy List falls into this category. After the UN accused Americans of being stingy in the aftermath of the tsunami, I documented over a billion dollars of donations by private Americans and business.
Posted by: Chuck Simmins at August 24, 2007 12:41 PM (HeNaU)
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August 22, 2007
A Sorry State of Affairs
I don't normally read Jonathan Chait and know little about him. I don't know what role he normally plays at
The New Republic, or what role he may or may not have played in the magazine's latest fabulism scandal.
What I do know of Chait is that his attack on William Kristol this morning is written with the obvious intent of distracting TNR readers from the editors' compromised ethics by attacking an ideological opposite.
It is perhaps not the oldest trick in psychology or politics, but it is close: attack a common enemy to shore up your own faltering base. Chait's none-too-subtle-variation on this is to get readers riled up at Kristol for a comment where he states that liberals are turning against the troops. I would imagine that the quote is probably accurate, even though Chait provides neither a link to the original editorial, or the context in which this passage appeared.
But what is far more interesting—both to myself, and based upon their comments, some of the magazine's readers—is what Chait doesn't say in his attempt to distract us away from the magazine's editorial deceptions with his assault on Kristol.
The topic was The New Republic's decision to publish an essay by Scott Beauchamp, an American soldier serving in Iraq, detailing some repugnant acts he said he and his comrades committed. Legitimate questions have been raised about this essay's veracity. (We've been publishing updates on our continuing efforts to get answers to them at tnr.com.) But Kristol rushed past these questions, immediately declaring the piece a "fiction."
Legitimate questions were raised about Beauchamp's articles: all three of them, in fact. And we know now based upon an internal investigation by the United States Army, interviews with military personnel, contractors, vehicle experts, and even simple Google searches, is that the major allegations made in "Shock Troops" and in at least one of Beauchamp's other stories ("Dark of Night") are indeed, fiction. They are fabrications. Untruths. Lies.
The questions that remain surrounding this fabulist's train-wreck are concerned with the editorial decisions of Franklin Foer, Jason Zengerle, and perhaps even Chait and other editorial staffers.
Those questions—what did the editors know, when did they know it, and why do they continue to cover it up—those are the questions that remain unresolved and of interest to those following this on-going example of gross editorial misconduct.
To recap:
- TNR editor Franklin Foer claimed on July 20 that, "I've spoken extensively with the author of the piece and have communicated with other soldiers who witnessed the events described in the diarist. Thus far, these conversations have done nothing to undermine--and much to corroborate--the author's descriptions. I will let you know more after we complete our investigation." Foer has never provided any corroborating details to support these claims, despite his promise.
- The editors claimed that "the article [Shock Troops] was rigorously edited and fact-checked before it was published." The fact of the matter is that TNR subsequently had to change the "burned woman" assault story from happening at FOB Falcon and as the result of the psychological trauma experienced by the author as the result of combat, to another location in another country before Beauchamp ever went to war, precisely because they did not rigorously edit or fact check the article before publication. This is a not only evidence of a lie by the editors when they said they "rigorously edited and fact-checked" the article before publication, it fatally undermines the entire premise of the article.
- TNR has not released, and appears to have purposefully hidden, unfavorable testimony of those it interviewed in the course of their investigation. We know that TNR editor Jason Zengerle admitted to John Podhoretz of The Corner that a Kuwait-based PAO regarded the "burned woman" story as a myth or urban legend, yet TNR editors have never revealed these findings as part of their investigation. So much for the promise to "release the full results of our search when it is completed." We have no way of knowing if they have hidden other unfavorable information.
- TNR's editors have led a purposefully vague investigation that does not disclose the names, qualifications, or expertise of anyone they claimed to have interviewed during the course of their investigation, hindering anyone who would like to follow behind them and verify the veracity of their claimed research. They have not disclosed the questions they asked their experts, and have thus far refused to provide their answers directly.
- One of the experts has been located and re-interviewed, and discloses the fact that he was never specifically interviewed about the claims made by Beauchamp at all. Further, once provided with Beauchamp's direct claims, he cited the physical properties and characteristics that would make Beauchamp's claims highly unlikely if not impossible. TNR staffers are well aware of his new, more fully-informed response, and have yet to respond.
In short, TNR's editors, led by Franklin Foer, have misled their readers, hidden testimony, and perhaps even rigged an investigation in order to claim some sort of vindication for their editorial and ethical failings.
These are the matters of importance that Johathan Chait, Franklin Foer, and other staffers at The New Republic would rather we didn't focus on.
They would much rather gin up "us versus them" conflicts between liberals and conservatives, between The Weekly Standard and The New Republic, and supporters of the war versus those who would bring the troops home now, than focus on the all-too-apparent fact that the editorial leadership of The New Republic has lied to its readers, compromised their integrity, and dissembled to fellow journalists and critics alike. They've done all of this to cover-up just how poor of a job they did in allowing a staffer's husband to publish inflammatory articles without any apparent editorial controls in place.
The editors of The New Republic have rather obviously lied to us all. They continue to do so today, and no amount of blame-shifting or "look over there!" sleight-of-hand will hide that brutal fact.
In the comments to Chait's article, TNR subscriber "PJmolloy" states:
This is a vile piece. It almost makes Beauchamp look tolerable if this is the alternative.
I've subscribed to TNR off and on for forty years. But it looks like it'll be more off than on in the future. Isn't there someone who can help this magazine?
There is, of course.
Why CanWest MediaWorks refuses to do so is yet another mystery.
Update: Captain Ed pulls no punches:
Chait should save his shocked, shocked! hypocrisy for the people in his own office who violated journalistic standards to publish Beauchamp, apparently based on the word of his wife and sweetened by the themes of his inartful fabulism. Attacking Kristol for essentially nailing the strangely-silent editors and publisher of TNR may conform to the strategy of going on offense as the best defense, but it's rather transparent, like the glass house TNR has chosen to occupy.
Nor does Bryan at Hot Air:
ChaitÂ’s article is another example of TNRÂ’s defense by offense, and itÂ’s the work of a smear artist and a scoundrel.
Powerline's Scott Johnson rips the TNR editor's "Chaitred" as well.
It seems at this late stage that even an offensive by The New Republic is quite transparent and doomed to fail.
I also seem to have someone's undivided attention at the home office.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Excellent post! Mr. Chait's attack is not only intemperate, but ill-timed, inasmuch as it only intensifies the feeling that the New Republic is grasping at straws.
I do, however, have one critique: The bloggers that are putting pressure on the TNR editors to release the results of their investigation, should not forget to apply the same pressure to the United States Military to release the details of its own investigation. After all, the military has made the extraordinary (and for TNR, damning) claim that there is no substance to the tales told by Scott Beauchamp. Gaining access to (at least some) details of the military's investigation would most likely allow bloggers to put the final nail in TNR's coffin.
Additionally, the military should be asked to clear up the issue of whether or not the Weekly Standard's report concerning a signed statement by Beauchamp, retracting his stories, is accurate.
All things considered, transparency should be the name of the game here. We would all be served well by having access to the results of the investigations done by TNR, as well as the military.
Posted by: Ari Lamm at August 22, 2007 10:56 AM (CMZ9B)
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Lamm, the military cannot legally release any more information without Beauchamp's permission, due to privacy regulations on personnel matters.
Since this is apparently not going to a public court-martial, but is handled administratively, the proceedings are confidential, and only Beauchamp can waive that confidentiality.
And he's not giving that permission, nor talking to anyone himself, although he is free to do so.
Posted by: Wethal at August 22, 2007 11:08 AM (CPxxm)
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Ari,
I do not think the military can legally release that information. Whether by policy or by law employers can not release personnel records. It is up to Mr. Beauchamp to do so. Beauchamp needs to be transparent.
Posted by: Rick at August 22, 2007 11:09 AM (fGZN5)
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I believe that CY's on their radar because TNR and parent Co. are checking (and hoping) to see if this is going away (yet). Please don't let up!
Posted by: Jack C at August 22, 2007 11:21 AM (Z10aw)
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how dare tnr respond to kristol's outrageously disingenuous assertions about their motives. for shame!
Posted by: neil at August 22, 2007 11:55 AM (ht9Vr)
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Chait's article is merely a flash pot intended to distract his readers from the Beauchump mess. However, it is interesting that TNR has now entered into Phase 2 of what I call "The Clinton Defense":
1. We did nothing wrong!
2. Well, you're guilty too!
3. Move on already, that's old news!
Personally I still think TNR's editor Franklin Foer will be Fredo-ed on the Friday before Labor Day weekend. Expect a post-Labor Day defense of, "can't we talk about something current?"
http://exurbanleague.com/2007/08/22/beauchump-scandal-enters-phase-two.aspx
Posted by: Exurban Jon at August 22, 2007 12:01 PM (N0doa)
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Congrats as ever to CY and everyone keeping the pressure on. However, at this point I wonder how much more TNR can lose by brazening it out.
Why not keep Foer on, while maintaing TNR's aggrieved innocence, then push him out in a year or so for unrelated reasons? Would honesty be better for them in the long run compared to the damage TNR suffers if it admits that once again it has printed fabrications?
Unless someone can take TNR to court, maybe TNR is better off stonewalling.
Posted by: huxley at August 22, 2007 12:42 PM (kTHvu)
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The article appears on TNR's table of contents as "The Thuggery of William Kristol: Complexity is weakness. Dissent is treason. What neoconservatism has become" and the article closes by calling Kristol a thug.
Which only shows Chait to be an apparatchik for a corrupt organization.
Posted by: pst314 at August 22, 2007 01:19 PM (OA547)
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Intrigued by Jon Chait's article, The Thuggery of Bill Kristol, I began searching for evidence of the neocon's bad behavior. Imagine how shocked I was to find a photograph from a recent Weekly Standard cruise proving Chait's thug assertion:
http://exurbanleague.com/2007/08/22/thug-life-4-real.aspx
Kristol is hardcore, man.
Posted by: Exurban Jon at August 22, 2007 01:24 PM (N0doa)
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Amazingly arrogant and hypocritical - but what else would you expect from a writer, Chait, whose greatest previous contribution to American letters was an essay about his seething, very personal hatred of the President?
Article #2 on their web offering today: "Freedom's False Ring" by Eric Rauchway, capsuled as "America's hypocritical impulse to remake the world."
So, their first article is a blatantly hypocritical hit piece against one of their critics, and the second is a typical TNR attack on someone else's supposed hypocrisy. This time it's the whole dang country that another TNR web writer is after, but, all in all, it's just snide on top of snide, as usual.
Just when you thought that the vast continent of moral bankruptcy to the point of self-parody had been fully mapped, TNR discovers new territories.
I swear to you all, it really was possible to read TNR once upon a time, even to open it up at the local coffee shop without a feeling of embarrassment.
Posted by: CK MacLeod at August 22, 2007 01:34 PM (dvksz)
11
Wethal and Rick are correct. The military can not, by law, release any more information than they have already released.
No one is keeping STB from talking but STB. And no one is working hard to cover anything up except TNR.
Posted by: Tully at August 22, 2007 01:36 PM (kEQ90)
12
CK -- I quite believe you. Again, I wonder if TNR is simply being the magazine it wants to be, or perhaps feels it has no other choice to be.
Following the STB affair has impressed upon me the large reservoir of Americans for whom "Shock Troops" was spot-on, never mind the criticism or contradictions, and anyone who says different is just a wingnut.
Why shouldn't TNR play to its strengths with this audience?
Posted by: huxley at August 22, 2007 02:19 PM (kTHvu)
13
Wethal (and others),
I think what you are referring to is information concerning the signed statement. From what I understand, the military is, indeed, prohibited from clearing that up at this time. But does that apply to the rest of their investigation?
No matter, the conservative blogosphere is already doing a more-than-adequate job exposing this hoax for what it is.
Posted by: Ari Lamm at August 22, 2007 03:13 PM (CMZ9B)
14
A comment over at
QandO:
Speaking of PVT Beauchamp.
I checked out his AKO account back when he first introducted himself. I found that he was listed as a PV2 and much was made of the fact by others that he had been a PFC but must have been busted to PV2 prior to his journey into journalism.
I checked his AKO information a few days ago. It still lists his unit as 1/18th however his rank is now listed as PV1.
So that, at least to me, answers the question of what punishment he got. Looks like an ART 15, reduction in rank to PV1, and who knows if he got extra duty or loss of any more pay.
It appears from this that Beauchamp got busted down a rank.
Posted by: Neo at August 22, 2007 03:38 PM (Yozw9)
15
I had thought that Chait left TNR some time ago, as he appears regularly in the LAT. One good thing about this shmuck is he does, credit to him, have the stones to appear regularly on the Hewitt show. I don't think he's been on lately and haven't seen him mentioned on the HH site. Certainly, Hugh would not shirk from asking him the relevant questions. This thing ain't going anywhere and the reason is simple: this imbroglio DOES just what Kristol and others claim... exposes the true depravity of these critters we know as Liberals. But they can't keep the mask on much longer. It chafes.
Posted by: megapotamus at August 22, 2007 04:06 PM (LF+qW)
16
Tully, I'm not really sure that there IS an answer for THE NEW REPUBLIC. For years now, ever since the evil "thug" Kristol got THE WEEKLY STANDARD off the ground, TNR has increasingly been forced to choose sides, and is naturally pushed to the left. TNR could have instead fought the STANDARD for a bigger share of the center, including in particular the center right on foreign policy, but when President Bush and the war in Iraq were at 70+% popularity, there was a lot more room to maneuver.
Chait's an interesting figure in this both because he appears to lack writerly impulse control, and also because, when he's not in bruised-feelings mode, he can come across as thoughtful and open-minded. He took some heat a few weeks ago, for instance, for daring to suggest that his political allies might want to consider how they'd react if the surge strategy did work. I think that this latest piece speaks volumes not just about his own uncertain predicament, being intimately tied to a troubled enterprise under heavy fire, but about a larger state of confusion at TNR - not just over how to handle the Beauchamp affair, but over the magazine's future, at minimum its political purpose and direction, possibly its very existence.
Posted by: CK MacLeod at August 22, 2007 04:08 PM (dvksz)
17
Pretty lame attack from Chait, who's certainly smart enough to be capable of mustering stronger arguments. Well, usually; in this case, I suppose that's all he's got. It wasn't so many years ago that the New Republic still produced decent journalism; in a way, it's sad to see it in this state.
Posted by: Nathan Tabor at August 22, 2007 05:12 PM (qkRuy)
18
What a novel approach it is to "distract us away from the magazine's editorial deceptions" by addressing those same "editorial deceptions" at the very beginning of the piece!
They're evil geniuses over there at TNR, and make no mistake.
Posted by: nunaim at August 22, 2007 05:42 PM (22/Qe)
19
My questions for TNR are:
Have you asked Scott Beauchamp to sign a waiver allowing the Army to release his statement (allegedly a full retraction) and other details of the investigation?
If you asked him, what did he say?
If you didn't ask, why not?
I don't think TNR had a sinister political agenda in publishing Beauchamp. But they screwed up badly in not getting something with Iraq experience -- or common sense -- to check his assertions. Then they gravely compounded the error by putting more energy into ass covering than into determining the truth about Beauchamp's stories.
Some of the people who've gone after TNR and Beauchamp have a political agenda; some don't. What counts is that they've poked big holes in Beauchamp's credibility on everything's he's written -- I'm dubious about the Al Qaeda tongue amputation too -- and TNR has not acknowledged that they screwed up.
Posted by: Joanne Jacobs at August 22, 2007 06:15 PM (ma2OS)
Posted by: DirtCrashr at August 22, 2007 06:45 PM (VNM5w)
21
I'm not sure if anyone has been rude enough to point out yet that Chait was already on the staff of
TNR at the time of the Stephen Glass affair almost 10 years ago, and actually shared a byline with Glass on at least one story. (Though obviously, it was not one of the pieces that Glass had fabricated entirely out of thin air.)
Posted by: Throbert McGee at August 22, 2007 07:01 PM (Dwf5/)
22
And another bit of Chait trivia: In the movie
Shattered Glass, most of the
TNR staffers portrayed were highly disguised, fictionalized, and in some cases composite versions of the real people involved. (I believe that Mike Kelly, Chuck Lane, and Glass himself were the only "real-life names" used.)
Jon Chait himself was gender-switched to become the character "Amy Brand" -- played by Melanie Lynskey, who's best known as Kate Winslet's mousy co-star in the fabulous
Heavenly Creatures.
Posted by: Throbert McGee at August 22, 2007 07:07 PM (Dwf5/)
23
Chait says:
"We've been publishing updates on our continuing efforts to get answers to them at tnr.com."
"been publishing updates" is a bit of a stretch, since the last one was almost a month ago, and contained no verifiable statements about their "continuing efforts," just "trust us, we're working on it, but so far it looks like we'll stand by STB." In other words, this assertion has the same arrogant, dismissive tone, and plays as loosely with the facts, as the "updates" themselves.
Posted by: notropis at August 22, 2007 07:33 PM (UJifq)
24
....and TNR has not acknowledged that they screwed up.
TNR still hasn't told it's readers that the Army has investigated and come to a diametrically opposed conclusion. They haven't told them anything in 10 days.
I think the next news will be hearing out of this is Frank Foer's sudden desire to "spend more time with family."
Posted by: Pablo at August 22, 2007 07:38 PM (yTndK)
25
The loony Left's newest convert and all around nutjob, John Cole over at Balloon Juice, has a contrary view, opining that: The Chait article is an "[e]xcellent piece....on the increasingly unstable folks at the Weekly Standard..."
I've been told that Cole has a job teaching at a university, which I guess speaks volumes about the current sorry state of the US educational system.
Posted by: Vick H at August 22, 2007 08:32 PM (DMnkh)
26
Me thinks that this whole episode calls for a new "slogan";
Beauchamp Lied, TNR Died.
Posted by: Jack Coonan at August 22, 2007 08:39 PM (bAzyC)
27
Jack,
Maybe Beauchamp lied, TNR cried. Then, perhaps, died. A truly pathetic spectacle to be sure.
Posted by: Chris at August 22, 2007 09:49 PM (Jyeuw)
28
Sorry, Chris
Maybe He LIED, (won't go into qual's) isn't an answer, He did.
Posted by: Jack Coonan at August 23, 2007 02:01 AM (bAzyC)
29
If Chait and TNR were upset and vented their furstration at Kristol, you can bet dollars to donuts that they will react to the possible busting of their "budding Hemingway" with even more vitriol.
This is all part of TNR as "victim".
The question that TNR will try to obscure .. who is the victimizer ?
Of course, it is the fabulist, Mr. Beauchamp.
Posted by: Neo at August 23, 2007 04:52 AM (Yozw9)
30
Nothing will change for TNR. They have a subscription base of hardcore lefties who are getting just what they want from the mag. What incentive do they have to change?
Posted by: T.Ferg at August 23, 2007 08:40 AM (2YVh7)
31
(notropis made this point above, but it is worth repeating):
I was surprised to see Chait claim that TNR is "publishing updates". I realized that maybe I was unfair (thinking they were steonewalling), so I went to TNR, searched on "Beauchamp" to read these recent updates.
Nothing recent.
And what's there isn't very informative.
I'm not quite as ready as you to dismiss everything Beauchamp as lies - my main point is that there are enough questions that the burden of the proof is on TNR. Not on the army, not even on Beauchamp - frankly, what he has to say is uninteresting in itself - what is important is that TNR wove a narrative, and they have the responsibility to back it up or back off.
And no blaming Beauchamp for clamming up - nor can they claim that the Army must speak. TNR spoke, TNR must support their own claim. It isn't an impossible task - the narrative involves literally dozens of people - other people in the Bradley, other people in the mess tent, other people who saw the boy. Find them, get their statements on record, and either support the TNR narrative with solid evidence or come clean and concede the narrative was a fiction.
Posted by: Phil at August 23, 2007 09:38 AM (39DNf)
32
Well said, Phil! The burden of proof is on TNR and they won't even own up to that.
>What incentive do they have to change?
However, TFerg's question is mine too. If TNR were truly concerned with responsibility and integrity, they would have handled this scandal differently from the beginning, and not by piling up further lies and evasions on top of Beauchamp's. Nonetheless, TNR does not lack for defenders, who similarly evade the issues with counter-attacks and uncritical thinking.
Unless there is some clear, unavoidable and harsh consequence for TNR's stonewalling, I see no reason for them to change.
Posted by: huxley at August 23, 2007 10:49 AM (/16qw)
33
So many of Beauchamp's claims have been exposed as lies that the reasonable position is now to treat him as an habitual liar and either ignore him or require that he prove everything he says.
Posted by: pst314 at August 23, 2007 12:03 PM (OA547)
34
"So much for the promise to 'release the full results of our search when it is completed'."
I expect that TNR's intention is to complete their investigation about the same time that O.J. finishes searching America's golf courses for the killer of Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman. (Or perhaps they will simply wait until most people have forgotten all the details and then release a mendacious report of the "The Narrative Was Right, but the Facts Were Wrong" variety, whitewashing their behavior while smearing their betters.)
Posted by: pst314 at August 23, 2007 12:13 PM (OA547)
35
Or perhaps they will simply wait until most people have forgotten all the details and then release a mendacious report of the "The Narrative Was Right, but the Facts Were Wrong" variety, whitewashing their behavior while smearing their betters
More likely TNR won't bother even admitting to wrong facts beyond the conceded relocation of the burn victim anecdote (which is almost certainly not true either).
Unless the Army releases the recantation the Weekly Standard says Beauchamp made, I see no reason for TNR to acknowledge anything.
Posted by: huxley at August 23, 2007 12:38 PM (rOvvS)
36
Huxley, I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on television, but my understanding is that the Army is legally prohibited from releasing it without Beauchamp's permission.
However, TNR is not legally prohibited from releasing the names of the people they claim to have spoken to, yet they have not done so.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 23, 2007 10:49 PM (447LE)
37
I understand that; I did read the earlier responses too. I mentioned it as a hypothetical case which might force an admission out of TNR. Otherwise, as I say, I see no reason for TNR to acknowledge anything. If someone sees differently, I would like to hear from them.
It bothers me that there really don't seem to be consequences for TNR as along as it maintains a sufficient readership which similarly favors an agenda over facts and ethics.
Posted by: huxley at August 24, 2007 12:10 AM (/16qw)
38
i cant believe you people are this dumb...bush obvously set up tnr because they had supported his illegal iraq war and then learned the truth and told people...so to punish them the shrub president had his nsa agents set up scott as the perfect writer and those artecals were probably written in the oval office
Posted by: iknowthetruth at August 24, 2007 09:16 AM (wo5+T)
39
I can't believe how difficult it is to tell whether an anti-Bush, anti-war rant is the real thing or a parody making fun of anti-Bush, anti-war people.
Did the NSA also arrange for Elspeth Reeve, one of the TNR factcheckers, to fall in love and marry Scott Beauchamp? Those cynical bastards!
Posted by: huxley at August 24, 2007 10:12 AM (/16qw)
40
Huxley, in the minds of these "troofers," the NSA probably used a love potion.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 24, 2007 07:04 PM (447LE)
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August 20, 2007
Misfire: AP's Bogus Ammo Shortage Story
An Associated Press report published late Friday afternoon stated that ammunition shortages in some law enforcement agencies around the nation were to be
blamed on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan:
Troops training for and fighting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are firing more than 1 billion bullets a year, contributing to ammunition shortages hitting police departments nationwide and preventing some officers from training with the weapons they carry on patrol.
An Associated Press review of dozens of police and sheriff's departments found that many are struggling with delays of as long as a year for both handgun and rifle ammunition.
The damning narrative was grasped quickly by war critics who uttered banalities such as this:
Here's another little way the Bush doctrine is endangering our safety at home. Our local police are running out of ammo...
Similar thoughts from the community-based reality were echoed here:
The good news is, U.S. forces in the Middle East are not going to run out; the troops get most of their ammunition from a dedicated plant. The bad news is, the strain is a burden on police departments, which could undermine public safety.
Bloggers were hardly alone is running with the narrative, which was carried by the Boston Globe, the Seattle Times, and other news agencies.
The Associated Press article cited police officers and sheriffs, and seems to present a bulletproof case.
Reality, however, shows that the assumptions made and biases held by the Associated Press reporters may have led the story to having been built on an entirely fault premise.
To understand the ammunition shortage being experienced by some police agencies today, we shouldn't look at September 11, 2001, but instead, begin with February 28, 1997.
It was on that day in North Hollywood, California that Larry Phillips, Jr. and Emil Matasareanu, two-heavily armed and armored bank robbers, engaged in a 44-minute shootout with an out-gunned Los Angeles Police Department. The two suspects fired more than 1,300 rounds of ammunition, and each was shot multiple times with police handguns. The 9mm police pistol bullets bounced off their homemade body armor. Phillips eventually died after being shot 11 times; Matasareanu died after being hit 29 times.
In the aftermath of the shootout, the LAPD, followed by police departments large and small nationwide, began to feel that rank-and-file patrol officers should be armed with semi-automatic or fully-automatic assault rifles or submachine guns in addition to their traditional sidearms, anticipating an up-tick of heavily armed and armored subjects. The trend has failed to materialize more than a decade later.
As with most trends in law enforcement, the trend towards the militarization of police patrol officers to a level once reserved for SWAT/ERT teams was slow, though one that gathered momentum rapidly after September 11, 2001.
Today, it is this increased and on-going militarization of police forces and the associated training requirements that have caused the ammunition shortages experienced by some police departments, and the lack of ammunition is not related to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq in any meaningful way.
The Associated Press report is not supported beyond anecdotal evidence by real, objective facts.
ATK's Ammunition Systems Group is the largest ammunition manufacturing body in the world. ATK runs the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant under contract, where it has the capacity to manufacture 1.5 billion rounds of ammunition a year, or put another way, a half billion rounds per year more than is being used by our military in Iraq and Afghanistan.
It is also a major supplier of law enforcement ammunition under Federal Premium, Speer Gold Dot, Lawman, and CCI Blazer brands. The law enforcement ammunition is made in plants in Idaho and Minnesota that are completely separate for their military operations at Lake City. These production lines do not, as the AP falsely states, use the same equipment used to manufacture military ammunition.
Those who stayed with the entire Associated Press article might note that ATK spokesman Bryce Hallowell did not buy the AP's conclusion that the war in Iraq was having a direct effect on police ammunition supplies.
He stated further:
"We had looked at this and didn't know if it was an anomaly or a long-term trend," Hallowell said. "We started running plants 24/7. Now we think it is long-term, so we're going to build more production capability."
I contacted Brian Grace of ATK Corporate Communications for further information, and he also doubted the Associated Press claim that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were responsible for a police ammunition shortage.
Since 9/11 we've seen a huge jump in demand from law enforcement. In the last fiscal year alone we saw demand from law enforcement jump 40%. By running our civil plants 24/7, hiring hundreds of new employees and streamlining our manufacturing processes we were able to increase our deliveries to law enforcement by 30% in that same period. In addition, we've just announced we'll be investing another $5 million in new production lines at our civil ammunition facilities.
I pressed Mr. Grace to clarify, asking:
Based upon this 40% increase in demand by law enforcement, is it more fair to categorize the difficulty of some departments in obtaining ammunition as a fact of increased police demand outstripping current manufacturing capabilities, and not as the result of the military needing more ammunition and drawing down civilian supply?
Is their any shortage of lead, copper, or brass, or it is just a matter of not enough manufacturing equipment?
He responded:
Manufacturing capacity is the main issue. As you might imagine, for a precision manufacturing business that faced many years of steady demand, it can be quite a challenge to suddenly meet double-digit growth in demand. But we're very proud of the successes we've had with increasing our output while maintaining the quality and reliability of our products.
And we're committed to doing everything in our power to accelerate the growth in output, which is what precipitated the recently announced investment in additional equipment.
Let me make that crystal clear.
According to two spokesmen for the world's largest ammunition manufacturer, which runs the military's ammunition manufacturing plant and separately, is a major supplier of law enforcement ammunition, it is a massive and unexpected increase in law enforcement ammunition demand that is causing delays in law enforcement ammunition delays, not the war.
Once again, a media organization with target fixation seems to have widely missed the mark.
Update: Another Manufacturer Weighs In
Michael Shovel, National Sales Manager for COR-BON/Glaser, writes into explain that the price increases for ammunition are at least partially because of the demand from China for copper and lead for their building boom [and for toy paint, and baby bibs, and pajamas, but I digress--ed]:
The reason that PD's and people are having trouble getting ammo and also the price increases is the war effort and also the fact that China is buying up lots of the copper and lead for their building boom.
Our LE market has grown this year the same as it has the past 5 years. No big increase but no drop off either.
The only issue with our ability to deliver ammunition in a timely manner is getting brass cases and primers.
We do only some specialized ammo for the military and it's done in our custom shop instead on the production floor.
Interesting.
Mr. Shovel states that the war effort does play some role in the ammunition shortage, but does not say exactly what it is, and is apparently not speaking for his company when he makes that claim.
He states that their only issue in delivering ammunition has been getting brass cases and primers, and further, that the specialized military ammunition they produce is not part of their normal civilian/law enforcement manufacturing operations.
Dr. Ignatius Piazza, Director of the Frontsite Firearms Training Institute was also contacted about the shortage claimed by the Associated Press, as Frontsight's training courses typically require from hundreds to over a thousand rounds of ammunition per student per course.
Dr. Piazza noted, "From time to time ammo becomes in short supply but we always find it at various sources." He also stated that the shortages have been blamed on the ammunition companies "selling all they can sell" to the government, but once again, we don't seem to have any direct evidence of this charge revealed, at least not yet.
Could it be that the "conventional wisdom" is wrong?
Once again, I'm forced to wonder why the Associated Press reporters who composed this article chose to interview police officers about ammunition, instead of the companies that manufacture it and would have far more direct knowledge of the cause of any shortages.
Update: Manufacturer Remington Weighs In
Michael Haugen, Manager of the Military Products Division for Remington Arms Company Inc., states:
I would say that if they [law enforcement] are not training it is not due to the availability of ammunition.
Remington has one plant that makes all of their ammunition (military, law enforcement, general civilian), and Mr. Haugen stated emphatically that military sales are "definitely not" in any way detracting from the development and manufacture of civilian and law enforcement ammunition, and that Remington has additional manufacturing capacity, depending on the product required.
We now how three major manufacturers stating that their law enforcement ammunition sales are not being impacted by military ammunition sales, which seems to be directly at odds with the claims made by these Associated Press reporters.
I've approached Associated Press Media Relations Director Paul Colford and suggest that either a correction or retraction seems to be warranted for this story.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:12 PM
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1
Aww, come on, CY, you don't expect the leftymedia to let a few inconvenient facts get in the way of a good anti-Bush, anti-war, anti-military story, do ya?
Posted by: C-C-G at August 20, 2007 11:49 PM (447LE)
2
Considering the way the cops and deputies shoot in LA, they need all the practice ammo they can find...
Posted by: richard mcenroe at August 20, 2007 11:54 PM (lCheg)
3
But they support the troops right?
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at August 21, 2007 01:01 AM (Lgw9b)
4
I don't get it. I thought the lefties
wanted the police to be disarmed.
Posted by: Attila (Pillage Idiot) at August 21, 2007 03:29 AM (ZaM5Y)
5
CY is turning into the number one enemy of news fabricators.
Posted by: Kevin at August 21, 2007 04:28 AM (f0QzP)
6
Something else doesn't make sense about that story.
Most LEO's carry either 9mm or 10mm sidearms, right? And last I heard, the typical long arm for patrol cars was a shotgun. Only the SWAT types carry the M16 lookalikes that shoot 5.56mm NATO.
But American troops in combat carry M16 and related weapons, which shoot only the 5.56mm.
So how the hell can combat expenditure of 5.56mm be causing shortages in other calibers?
Posted by: wolfwalker at August 21, 2007 05:53 AM (ecQz3)
7
Excellent analysis, CY, you nailed it.
Posted by: Thrill at August 21, 2007 06:00 AM (bqxU9)
8
my read is that demand jumped 40% *last year* and ATK was able to increase production by 30%.
Dan's analysis using the North LA bank robbery as a starting point does little to account for a sudden 40% spike five years after 9/11.
Also, the problem is solvable by a five million dollar capital investment, for which funding has been secured.
My hunch is that those departments which are facing a shortage of ammunition have budget issues which prevent the departments from simply paying more for the existing ammo.
There is a 10% shortfall in ammunition supply, whether that alone can account for sudden, dramatic decline of police capability remains to be proven.
Posted by: BumperStickerist at August 21, 2007 06:32 AM (Gz4Wf)
9
Good work.
I'm conflicted on the subject, though.
I don't want the police to have fully automatic weapons (indiscriminate firing) and be heavy militarized (conspiracy theories).
But I want them to be able to respond to a terrorist attack if AQ decides to release small hit squads in cities.
And - of course - the media run with what they see. Kinda like the drunk looking for his keys under the street-light...
Posted by: _Jon at August 21, 2007 06:39 AM (ZM3Qb)
10
Traditionally the patrol car long arm was the short-barrelled shotgun. But departments are trending away from that, in favor of M4-style assault rifles.
In addition, SWAT-type units are more and more prevalent, as the federal government provides an insane amount of money for standing up and arming these teams, even in departments that have no need for them.
Police are rapidly becoming (and in some cities already are) the standing army our Founding Fathers were afraid of.
Posted by: mariner at August 21, 2007 06:57 AM (pEXyx)
11
Actually, the real reason our cops don't have enough guns and ammo---they're all being smuggled to Mexico!
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-01-18-mexico-arms_x.htm
Posted by: Steve Yuen at August 21, 2007 07:05 AM (01VUl)
12
Love Libby's use of "ammo". When you're a tough, smart, tough, and strong liberal, not only are you are troop-friendly (bring the baby-killers home now) but you know the jargon.
Cops. Ammo. City streets. Don RayBans, scowl, and cue terse, driving music.
Yep, smart, tough, strong and smart. The liberals.
Posted by: JHoward at August 21, 2007 07:19 AM (Hqu76)
13
Most LEO's carry either 9mm or 10mm sidearms, right?
Varies by department. 9mm and .40 S&W are the most popular calibers in the LE market, however, there are some departments that use .45 ACP.
And last I heard, the typical long arm for patrol cars was a shotgun. Only the SWAT types carry the M16 lookalikes that shoot 5.56mm NATO.
Again, varies by department. After the Hollywood bank robbery, the cops around here seem to have moved the shotguns to the trunk and have M4s in the passenger compartment- and I'm taking about regular patrol cops, not SWAT. Those guys have MP5s and the like.
But American troops in combat carry M16 and related weapons, which shoot only the 5.56mm.
Not exactly. 5.56 NATO is the standard issue, but a lot of other calibers are used, as well. 308 cal/7.62 NATO is used in many (generally full-auto) support weapons, and it's also one of the other very popular cartridges for both the LE and civilian markets.
So how the hell can combat expenditure of 5.56mm be causing shortages in other calibers?
Well, the thing is, I have yet to find a gunshop that didn't have *some* 5.56 or 7.62 to buy... usually premium-grade hunting or competition ammo. What they don't have for sale are the 1000-round bulk cases of FMJ that people like to use for training or recreation.
Posted by: rosignol at August 21, 2007 07:24 AM (ENrLG)
14
I'm conflicted on the subject, though.
I don't want the police to have fully automatic weapons (indiscriminate firing) and be heavy militarized (conspiracy theories).
But I want them to be able to respond to a terrorist attack if AQ decides to release small hit squads in cities.
Do the police need automatic weapons to respond to a terrorist attack. Or would the
semi-automatic weapons that the rest of us have to use do the job?
The
militarization of the
police is
hardly a conspiracy theory. It is such a
problem that sometimes I'm more worried about the threat
they pose then some Allah-worshipping pyjama-clad monkey-bar expert.
Posted by: Anonymous Coward at August 21, 2007 07:50 AM (AilTL)
15
The military load on the 9mm and .223 is usually in API, incendiary and ball. While LEO can use ball they will usually tend toward a hollow point type round that is forbidden to military applications by one of the Geneva Conventions. The hollow tip round also add the benefit of reduced of rounds passing through one target and hitting another.
Posted by: dreadnaught at August 21, 2007 08:38 AM (SAPb2)
16
The militarization of the police is hardly a conspiracy theory
No joke there. I noticed that the 'upswing' of the military/police also goes within the timeframe (1994) of the Government asking a selection of active US Military whether or not they were willing to suppress the citizenry of the US on the orders of Washington. The overwhelming response was negative, and those in charge realized that the active military would NOT be willing to take part in the suppression of the People of the United States.
By increasing the funds available to local law enforcement, and allowing them to "upgrade" their firepower and vehicles from surplus stocks from the US Militaery, the stage has been set for a real life "police state" circa Orwells "1984" or even Terry Gilliams "Brazil"
Posted by: Big Country at August 21, 2007 08:44 AM (8dJDM)
17
I wonder if the "uptick" in demand might have something to do with the various attempts by the "ban guns" crowd to shift to ammunition? Things like the OSHA stunt and statements by some of the Sara Brady types as well as increased visibility of atrocities like the DC ban may be making more 'private citizens' inclined to stockpile ammo.
Posted by: Hartley at August 21, 2007 08:45 AM (0zW6U)
18
Good work. I'll definitely be bookmarking this site.
Posted by: adolfo_velasquez at August 21, 2007 08:57 AM (k5032)
19
That's impressive reporting, CY. You not only provide greater depth of analysis than their article, you also point out exactly where they go wrong, in asking police departments rather than manufacturers for comment. Their reporters were clearly in over their head. I also have to wonder who served this story to them on a platter.
Posted by: clazy at August 21, 2007 09:24 AM (EWsFM)
20
And remember, Aug. 28 is National Buy Ammo day. Read more over at 'War On Guns'.
Posted by: Gary at August 21, 2007 09:24 AM (/C3Pw)
21
Regarding use of 9mm and .45 hurting .40 cal, Yes it does. Ammunition lines are limited. each line gets switched back and forth between several calibers, just like a reloader at home does. Therefore high demand for 9mm means less .40 will be produced. try getting rare cartridges. some of those are near impossible to find and also high priced due to the time required to change over a line being factored into cost. The hours taken in reset are spread accross a few thousand rounds, vs a million rounds. Some lines are dedicated to one round only, but when demand for that round increases, another line is switched to that caliber.
Regarding cops carrying stuff other then shotguns, after 1997, I had cops borrowing weapons from me to supplement their dept issue. The prospect scared a lot of cops bad! Departments were slow to react due to budget constraints, and a lot of cops are low paid. (I got out of law enforcement because I could make more then double what a highway patrol officer was getting working in industry.) I had bucks, I like to shoot, so I spent my dough on some nice black guns. I used to go to the range with my deputy buddies, and they all knew what I had in my closet. Less then a week after the North Hollywood shoot out, one close friend asked to borrow my M-16. Within two weeks, every semi auto I had was on loan. I even loaned out my .44 mag and .357 to cops whose dept issue were old .38s.
As time went on, departments caught up, the officers budgeted for a good long gun, and the scare died down a little, and I got my stuff back.
After 9-11 The M-16 was back on patrol for about six months. during that time I added an M1A to my collection, and it got loaned out too.
Posted by: Jeremy at August 21, 2007 09:37 AM (PzpF5)
22
Just wondering out loud with this, and offering no data at all to support it...
But I can't help but wonder if the increase in gasoline costs hasn't crept into the PD's pinched ammo budgets. I would imagine that a major cost of operating a PD is just keeping the cars running. Increase the cost of fuel, and a PD might find itself trimming elsewhere to keep paying the gas bill. Ergo: They might not keep so much training ammo around.
You see, in a leftist reporter's mind (but I'm being redundant, aren't I?),
It's always about the Global Warming, isn't it?
Posted by: azlibertarian at August 21, 2007 09:50 AM (vk+55)
23
So how the hell can combat expenditure of 5.56mm be causing shortages in other calibers?
C'mon, you know to most libbies a bullet is a bullet. Since when did the media care for distinctions when generalizations prmote the agenda much better? That's how you get stories like the AFP piece with the woman showing the two rounds that hit her house in a firefight (somehow miraulously unfired...)
Posted by: Raving Lunatic at August 21, 2007 09:53 AM (reXpC)
24
Jeremy,
I have to ask: Just what liability would an Officer and/or Police Department incur by using a
borrowed (and I'll presume "not-trained-on") firearm if they ever had to shoot someone with it?
Posted by: azlibertarian at August 21, 2007 10:17 AM (vk+55)
25
"demand from China for copper and lead for their building boom [and for toy paint, and baby bibs, and pajamas"
...now THAT is funny!!!.
Posted by: markm at August 21, 2007 11:55 AM (hVOTO)
26
Trackbacked by The Thunder Run -
Web Reconnaissance for 08/21/2007
A short recon of whatÂ’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.
Posted by: David M at August 21, 2007 12:20 PM (gIAM9)
27
The fact that the price of copper has quadrupled and the cost of lead has doubled over the last couple of years definitely has had a large effect on the matter. The war also has an effect. All the surplus ammo that showed up on the civilian market due to the end of the cold war has finally dried up as well. The worth of the dollar has decreased, so importing ammo is more expensive now. Cost of fuel increases freight costs which are not insignificant when dealing with something as heavy as ammo. Add in more demand by PD agencies for ammo, and well its not hard to understand why the price of 5.56 ball has more than doubled over the past year. It's pretty ugly right now for the recreational shooter, if you are buying ammo off the shelf for an outing. A day at the range a year ago might of cost $50. Now its more like $150.
Posted by: Jason at August 21, 2007 12:27 PM (OSSCz)
28
From Slate on 8/15/07 and
Bill Hobbs on 8/16/07:
An associate professor at the University of Oregon's School of Journalism and Communication, Scott R. Maier, conducted research into the accuracy of newsprint, and found that about 50% of 1,220 news stories contained errors. And only 23 of these (about 2%) ever printed a correction.
An associate professor at the University of Oregon's School of Journalism and Communication, Scott R. Maier, conducted research into the accuracy of newsprint, and found that about 50% of 1,220 news stories contained errors. And only 23 of these (about 2%) ever printed a correction.
Posted by: Robert at August 21, 2007 12:27 PM (Kl4YT)
29
Sorry for the double post, I don't know how that happened.
Posted by: Robert at August 21, 2007 12:29 PM (Kl4YT)
30
Just one more thing to throw into the mix:
Under the Clinton Administration, orders were made by the White House that all military Ammunition would be 'environmentally sound.' In other words "Green" as the research showed that throwing lead downrange might have some impact on the environment. The interesting thing is the Military changed the core of the 5.56mm round to a Tungsen/Tin composite.
See the Article:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_19_16/ai_62349852
Whats REALLY fascinating is that the primary source of tungsten ore is the People's Republic of China, which "has an estimated 40% of the world's tungsten reserves." http://www.americanpolicy.org/more/greenamunition.htm
Interesting how Clinton handed the Chinese ANOTHER great deal huh?
Posted by: Big Country at August 21, 2007 01:47 PM (q7b5Y)
31
How many rounds of rifle and machine gun ammunition does the United States military fire at the enemy on average each day in Iraq? A hundred rounds? A few hundred rounds? Whoopdee do. The United States military has for decades fired hundreds of times (thousands of times?) more rounds in training each day than the United States military in Iraq fires at the enemy each day on average in Iraq. Also, as far as ammunition for pistols, how many damn rounds of ammunition for pistols have been fired at the enemy in the last five years in Iraq? Ten rounds? Sorry, Associated (with terrorists) Press, but there aren't many service members in Iraq engaging the enemy with pistols. Sorry, AP but the United States military is not engaging even hundreds of enemy targets with rifles each day in Iraq. Evidently, the dingbat from the Associated (with terrorists) Press "thinks" that the United States military is engaging hundreds of thousands of enemy troops in sustained combat each day in Iraq. ROTFLMAO! This Associated (with terrorists) Press fantasy is an absolute joke written by some America hating, military hating dimwit.
Posted by: Tom at August 21, 2007 01:59 PM (ciler)
32
good catch on the AP story, but good reporting would also find a third source, not allowing the manufacturer to spin to their needs. also, good reporting would give some clarification as to why there's been a 40% jump in police demand. were they under armed before 9/11. is it a paranoid over reaction? has crime risen that much? a good story leave one with answers, not questions.
Posted by: ibfamous at August 21, 2007 02:10 PM (vTq5v)
33
What effect does demand from domestic suppliers have on the price of foreign ammo (eg. Sellier & Bellot, Wolf)?
Posted by: Anonymous Coward at August 21, 2007 02:14 PM (AilTL)
34
I believe that it's driven the prices much higher on the import stuff, along with the current exchange rate. Some of my older military rifles are getting more than a little expensive to fire and most of it is nothing more than the old Soviet ammo supply beginning to dry up. Wolf, I believe is a perfect example of the Russians finding a way to profit from the cold war. We can buy SKS semi-autos for $189.00 and then they sell us the surplus ammo for a fortune!
Posted by: Darryl at August 21, 2007 02:50 PM (oEJ61)
35
Reload your own, it's not hard.
Posted by: DirtCrashr at August 21, 2007 02:54 PM (VNM5w)
36
The original article isn't perfect, but it's no where near as incorrect as is being assumed.
1. Both ATK (who has the current contract to operate the US's sole miliary ammo plant, Lake City, and is the parent of Federal, Speer, and CCI, among others) and General Dynamics (owner of Winchester Ammo/Olin Chemical) are running their military lines at full speed, and are still unable to meet demand for rifle ammo. Practice ammo is being purchased from Israel (IMI) and South Korea, though it isn't used for combat due to political sensitivities.
2. The US is not the only country involved, and the US military is not the only military invovled. Just as the US military is consuming all available domestic military production, the same is true of several of the other countries involved in both theaters. Many of those countries normally supply the US civilian market with ammo, and that ammo hasn't been available for several years. And recently, the US has started to equip some Iraqi units with M16s/M4s instead of the AKs that are their standard issue. This consumes even more 5.56 ammo.
3. Many billions of rounds of post-Cold War foreign surplus ammunition was imported during the 90s and early 2000s, as a result of the global draw-down in forces following the implosion of the USSR. The last of that ammo started drying up around 2002-2003, further removing a large portion of the ammo that had been feeding the civilian market for over a decade.
4. It's absolutely true that 5.56 weapons have been adopted in droves for front-line police patrol units, especially post-9/11 when federal funding was made available. Certainly this has vastly increased the demand for 5.56, especially for training (unlike the military, the police expend very little ammo on duty).
5. Let's not forget about the vast increase in civilian demand, which took off around the time the original Assault Weapons Ban was passed in 1994. The ban brought military-pattern rifles to the attention of a lot of shooters, who suddenly rushed to buy one "while they still could" and found out how much fun they were. Interest in them exploded, and millions have been sold since then. Foreign ammo, both surplus and new-production, helped to keep up with this growing demand, but both are virtually unavailable today.
6. The UN Small Arms Non-Prolifieration Treaty has resulted in many nations refusing to sell ammo, new or surplus, on the civilian market.
7. Costs. Not only have raw materials prices gone up, but availability is down, resulting in supply delays. Energy costs are up, which, like most products, hits at every point along the production and distribution path. And more recently, the drop in the value of the dollar makes foreign imports much more expensive.
The bottom line is that there are many reasons for the shortage of ammo (and there IS absolutely a shortage; many of the big distributers have no 5.56 or 7.62 to sell for weeks at a time), but the War On Terror is directly or indirectly responsible for many of those reasons.
-Troy
Posted by: Troy at August 21, 2007 03:43 PM (0OCqm)
37
What effect does demand from domestic suppliers have on the price of foreign ammo (eg. Sellier & Bellot, Wolf)?
S&B has contracts with Winchester/Olin, and it sells to many of the countries that are involved in Iraq and Afghanistan. It also sells to other countries who have also begun increasing their ammo stocks due to the increased instability in Europe and the Middle East.
Wolf is a US company that imports ammo from the Russian ammo plants at Tula and Ulyanovsk as well as from Serbia (Prvi Partisan). Russia has been selling billions of rounds of ammo around the world, including large orders to Venezuela and to Iraq. Remember that both the military and the police in Iraq primarily use Romanian AKs supplied by the US, after confiscating and destroying tens of thousands of existing AKs from various source countries.
Prvi Partisan has a number of military contracts, and they, too, are unable to supply ammo to the US civilian market in the quantities that they anticipated only a couple of years ago.
While ammo isn't quite the global commodity that oil is, you still have the problem where increased demand in one sector affects the supply in others, especially given that there is so little surge capacity in modern manufacturing. And in any country, the military always gets its order filled first, with the police and civilian markets getting the leftovers.
-Troy
Posted by: Troy at August 21, 2007 04:09 PM (0OCqm)
38
Yet another breakdown in the drive by media. The likes of the Boston Globe, Seattle Post Intelligencer, MSNBC, and ABC News among others can't even perform basic fact checking.
Unlike the AP and their newspaper and broadcast clients you folks at CY looked into this matter, contacting suppliers to find out the real story. The suppliers all stated that Military demand was having no direct impact on civilian ammunition supplies.
Your source says there has been a recent spike in demand, "...capacity is the main issue. As you might imagine, for a precision manufacturing business that faced many years of steady demand, it can be quite a challenge to suddenly meet double-digit growth in demand."
A steady business, sudden increase in demand, why? I suspect this may have something to do with federal, state, and local procurement timing. Any one whose ever seen the feds in action knows that August is traditionally the month they spend like crazy to exhaust their budgets prior to the September 30, year-end. I haven't confirmed this is true in this case, but it is likely a contributing factor.
Military ammo production capacity has been a persistent problem for several years now. Defense Industry News has covered this issue extensively going back as far as the summer of 2005.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/pass-the-ammunition-army-taking-action-on-smallcal-shortages-0859/ I learned this through a simple google search of the term "ammunition shortage." Had the AP done de minimus fact checking they would have easily discovered this. In this instance, AP's agenda driven journalism led to a multi-level malfunction, using selective anecdotes from inapproopriate and unknowledgable sources, failing to corroborate their thesis with other knowledgable sources (the ammo makers), failure to conduct basic research on the specific question, that alters the entire context of the story, and failure to dig deeper to see if other factors like federal procurement policies may have played a roll. Obviously the AP has abandoned all pretense of objectivity. CY is calling on the AP to issue a correction or retraction, this is an appropriate remedy in this case. The number of defective stories and pictures being produced by the AP is very distressing. Current management needs to address these quality control problems immediately. Failing to do so will ultimately lead to a catastrophic disaster
Posted by: Christopher Alleva at August 21, 2007 04:22 PM (wwjQA)
39
AzLib,
No worry about liability. I trained alongside those officers, and everyone of them had shot and was familiar with the weapons I owned. Most of them were ex military or National Guard, and were very familiar with the M-16. Mine incidentally was a semiauto only without the full auto seer, and a block to prevent it being installed. They all knew what I had, and on range day brought ammo so they could shoot. Every one of us qualified with at least ten diffrent weapons every time we went.
Posted by: Jeremy at August 21, 2007 06:20 PM (mh4me)
40
good catch on the AP story, but good reporting would also find a third source, not allowing the manufacturer to spin to their needs. also, good reporting would give some clarification as to why there's been a 40% jump in police demand. were they under armed before 9/11. is it a paranoid over reaction? has crime risen that much? a good story leave one with answers, not questions.
"Good reporting" also uses capital letters. It's not hard, there's two buttons--one on either side of your keyboard--labeled "Shift." Many of them even helpfully have up-arrows!
And why do I suspect that your desired "third source" would be one that would spin it back to Bush and the
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil Wepubwicans and the war in Iraq?
Posted by: C-C-G at August 21, 2007 06:46 PM (447LE)
41
Love Libby's use of "ammo". When you're a tough, smart, tough, and strong liberal, not only are you are troop-friendly (bring the baby-killers home now) but you know the jargon.
Cops. Ammo. City streets. Don RayBans, scowl, and cue terse, driving music.
This is the most idiotic nit I've seen picked in quite a while.
Posted by: nunaim at August 21, 2007 07:29 PM (ZDk0V)
42
I had the honor of taking supper with an Army retention NCO who was just promoted to E-7. We discussed the current levels of training the military is doing. This NCO works with Infantry and ADA units and gave me a lot of insite into what our folks are doing now. The infantry here are going to the range once a month, so roughly 50 rounds per person. Support people go twice yearly. One thing that was also brought up was the demise of the Sunflower Army Ammunition Plant which sprawls accross south east Kansas. With the closing of SFAAP http://www.sfaap.net/sunflowermission.htm the army lost a major powder manufacturing source. Granted the facility was old and outdated, but they should have modernized rather then destroy it.
Posted by: Jeremy at August 21, 2007 09:42 PM (mh4me)
43
Did anyone interview the makers of Glock "square-backed" ammunition? Apparently those rounds (squares?) are in great demand in Iraq by the Iraqi Police.
[/sarc]
Posted by: C-C-G at August 22, 2007 09:09 AM (447LE)
44
Current management needs to address these quality control problems immediately.
Current management IS the quality control problem. A fish rots from the head.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 22, 2007 09:36 AM (5KwlV)
45
The real story here seems to be just what is fueling this ridiculous demand for ammo by our police.
Regarding the attributed statement that: "Since 9/11 we've seen a huge jump in demand from law enforcement. In the last fiscal year alone we saw demand from law enforcement jump 40%." Just what were the actual figures this is in regards to? Just how many rounds are we talking about that the police supposedly want?
Does anyone off hand know the total numbers of police officers in the US of A? What ratio of rounds desired to police officers is being discussed?
Since few cops ever fire their weapons in the line of duty in their entire career, this so called demand would have to relate to practice sessions, and there is a limit to the usefulness of that once you are familiar with your weapons.
As the conventional military is finally learning, keeping and building the peace is a different kettle of fish than combat. Cops are not military and their job is to keep the peace. That means building networks and contacts within the community - getting off your duff and walking around where appropriate - something that peace officers have always known, police officers have lost sight of, and with which SWAT teams have no conception.
If in fact a large part of the problem is just basic availability of copper, brass, and other materials used by center fired ammo then there is a very strong case being made for peace officers to go back to the trusty shotgun. Besides being a very good weapon in a fight - better than a M16 in house to house situations, it will tend to knock the bejesus out anyone even if they are wearing armor - shoot them in the head or legs and see what happens. The average cop's desire for an automatic assault weapon was a knee jerk reaction by people not very well schooled in the use of appropriate weaponry. Get hold of a 1911 or something similar, have the shotgun as backup. If that doesn't do it get under cover and wait for SWAT or hang it up and go home. Most times that isn't going to happen - my dad disarmed so many drunks and crazies without pulling his pistol that I couldn't keep score if I tried. He was a peace officer in the true sense of the word who had no interest in killing or even harming anyone - which isn't to say he couldn't.
Regarding the type of ammo being used by the military, Tom pointed out that the amount of pistol ammo fired in Iraq is about nil; he is correct. I have no idea how many rounds are fired on average over the course of a day in Iraq; however, I know when you get into action ammo tends to melt away. In addition, it is the automatic weapons which burn thru ammo, not so much the shoulder fired weapons. The SAWs are 5.56, the M60s are 7.62, then of course there are the .50 cal, and on the heavier vehicles there are 25 mm - not to mention the systems on the aircraft. In a fight a M60 can burn through more ammo than the rest of the unit's shoulder fired weapons combined.
Has the basic claim of the AP story even been verified? "Troops training for and fighting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are firing more than 1 billion bullets a year..." Even at a troop level of 160,000, which is high, that comes out to over 6,000 rounds per trooper. Granted automatic weapons on vehicles and aircraft can really inflate things but Tom is right, this seems really inflated, especially since our troops' fire discipline is pretty damn good. I certainly never fired anything remotely close to this. This figure looks more like the total ammo used by the military for everything world wide...
This is a good article and some of the comments have been very insightful - others have been a good laugh, jeremy.
Posted by: H. Short at August 22, 2007 08:18 PM (m7DyC)
46
Why a 40% jump in LEO demand in the last year? That is truly disturbing along multiple theories.
Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at August 23, 2007 08:11 PM (K/lgF)
47
here is a very strong case being made for peace officers to go back to the trusty shotgun.
There's another good reason for using the good old shotgun.
The distinctive sound of it being cocked tends, many times, to instill a desire to cooperate with the officers.
It's not foolproof, some suspects are too stoopid for it to work on, but the same can be said of the M-16.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 23, 2007 10:53 PM (447LE)
48
H. Short;
Any LEO, be he 'police' or 'peace' officer, who does NOT regularly practice with his sidearm, needs to get out of the patrol car, go in the office, remove his badge and weapon, and sit down at a desk and type. This also applies to she LEO's, because they have no business on the street if they are not TOTALLY QUALIFIED and PROFICIENT with that piece.
And proficiency does NOT come from once or twice a year shooting for qualification at the range. Proficiency comes from AT LEAST 2-3 times a month, at the range, developing muscle memory, so that if it ever happens that you DO need to draw and fire, it is automatic, your hand and arm know EXACTLY what they are doing, your eye automatically lines up with the sights, you establish perfect sight alignment with a VALID target, breathing is good, and you SQUEEZE, not PULL the trigger to discharge - all INSTINCTIVELY, so you still have the time to tell the perpetrator "HALT! POLICE! OR I WILL SHOOT!"
C-C-G;
When I bought my Mossberg 12 gauge, that was the EXACT reason for bringing it home; that lovely "snick-click-clack" sound that says, "Hey JACKASS, the next sound you hear will be your LAST! Get OUT!"
I damn well know when I went through the FLETC academy in Georgia, way back in '77, hearing that sound in the training chamber sure as Hell stopped ME cold!
Posted by: MadYank at August 24, 2007 09:40 PM (NuNDC)
49
Does anyone off hand know the total numbers of police officers in the US of A?
www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/lawenf.htm
"In 2004 there were more than 800,000 full-time sworn law enforcement officers in the United States"
Posted by: Anonymous Coward at August 25, 2007 06:53 PM (HUeIg)
50
When I hired on my Department practiced with handloaded ammunition, the work was done by trustees in our jail. Shortly after that someone important decided that this practice was too dangerous although no one had ever been injured.
Because I worked in a rural area I kept a lever action carbine in the trunk of the car, a .357 Magnum to complement my service revolver. With that I wad set for up to 150-200 yards.
I'm glad I'm retired, I think they'd have me toting a flame thrower in one pocket and a bazooka in the other now.
A big part of the current problem is the seized drug money and property. This can only be sppent on certain kinds of equipment, weapons and ammunition. So the departments get all these new whiz-bang guns and stuff and they need bazillions of rounds of ammo. I went to work with six in my revolver, two speedloaders full, seven rounds in the carbine, five shotguns shells and a bag with half a box or so of .357s and maybe a dozen extra shotgun shells. In my whole career I never worried about running out of ammo. I worked in a single car, in the country, I might have to wait ten minutes or more for backup.
Now the boys carry so much ammo that if they fall into three inches of water they drown.
Progress.
Posted by: Peter at August 26, 2007 02:50 AM (M7kiy)
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Blog Entry Prompts Photo Policy Changes at AFP?
CY commenter Dusty Raftery and I
published a story this past Friday of how French news agency Agence France-Presse (AFP) apparently attempted to take credit for a U.S. Army photo taken in Afghanistan.
Later that evening, several readers come to the article from AFP's Paris domain, and apparently what they found may have led to a change in policy, where AFP is more transparent on the source of military-provided photos.
Note that the both the Army and the individual photographer are properly credited by AFP as they should be in several current military photos, such as the one above.
Let's hope that this continues.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:41 AM
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1
Now if they'd only do that for photographs provided by, uh, other organizations - will we see snappers properly listed as Hezbollah?
Posted by: JEM at August 20, 2007 02:09 PM (G8Eo0)
2
Damn good question, JEM!
And will we also see accompanying text credited to the Hezbollah, Hamas or whatever Public Information Terrorist who gave the "news briefing"?
Posted by: Dave in Pa. at August 21, 2007 01:14 PM (PE/Va)
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Sucker-Punched
At
Pajamas Media this morning, Richard Miniter has posted a devastating article called
How The New Republic Got Suckered. It is the most incisive look into the heart of
The New Republic during the early days of the Scott Thomas Beauchamp scandal thus far.
Miniter draws heavily from former TNR assistant to the editor Robert McGee, who recounts his experiences inside The New Republic before being terminated and then slapped with a cease and desist order by the magazine's lawyers for revealing that Beauchamp was married to a TNR fact-checker and writer, Elspeth Reeve.
It is because of this relationship that I suspect Franklin Foer and other TNR editors failed to adequately fact-check Beauchamp's three articles. What still remains unanswered is if Reeve was the fact-checker on her husband's stories, as such a conflict of interest would be yet another violation of journalistic ethics.
Also telling, if accurate, is McGee's observation that Foer may have approached, and may still be approaching, the scandal with ideological blinders firmly in place.
Later that night, Robert McGee, a then-assistant to The New Republic's publisher, went looking for the host. He is curious what Foer thinks about the building scandal. He wants the inside dope.
He finds Foer on the front porch and asks as casually as he can: "So, what's up with this?"
As McGee recalls the conversation, Foer immediately volunteered the standard answer: conservatives have an ideological grudge to settle because they perceive the magazine to be anti-war, anti-military and so on.
"He sounded almost rehearsed," McGee said.
What bothered McGee about the conversation was that Foer saw the questions from the bloggers as a completely ideological attack. "Foer wasn't acknowledging that at least some of the attacks on the [Beauchamp's] 'Shock Troops' piece came from active-duty military members whose skepticism was factually grounded, and not just from stateside political pundits."
Discounting criticism merely as a result of the ideological position of the critics was a serious mistake by Foer, though hardly the first, and certainly not the last.
Just because political pundits made these observations does not make them invalid. It matters little who tells you that Glocks do not fire "square-backed" bullets; this fact does not change if it comes from a liberal or a conservative, a Republican or a Democrat.
Nor does it matter that it was this conservative blogger blew away TNR's insistence that they fact-checked Beauchamp's claims before publication by pointing out that if TNR has run so much as a Google search before publishing Beauchamp's libelous murder claim in “Dark of Night," then he would have likely been exposed as a fabulist well in advanced of "Shock Troops."
Time and again, it seems, Franklin Foer and perhaps other senior TNR editors allowed personal loyalties to subvert their editorial responsibilities.
In the beginning, these were small sins.
One wants to be able to trust the spouse of a staffer. I can understand why the fact-checking that should have occurred may have been minimized in Beauchamp's first post.
But in "Dead of Night," Beauchamp makes significant fact errors in leveling an accusation of murder. Personal relationships should matter little when an author makes such an inflammatory charge, and the editor's have a significant duty to verify that the facts support such a potentially divisive claim.
It is painfully obvious that even a passing attempt to verify the claims was never made. No handgun on the planet fires a "square-backed" pistol bullet, and if the editors had so much as bothered to click on the Glock web site, they would have readily discovered that Glocks use the same ammunition as every other 9x19mm caliber pistol, and that this claim was absurd.
Further, the editors of The New Republic made absolutely no attempt to verify the demonstrably false Beauchamp claim that "the only people who use Glocks are the Iraqi police."
This fabrication is easily discredited within seconds with a simple Google search.
Glocks are a common and favored handgun on the Iraqi black market:
Glock pistols were also easy to find. One young Iraqi man, Rebwar Mustafa, showed a Glock 19 he had bought at the bazaar in Kirkuk last year for $900. Five of his friends have bought identical models, he said.
There are literally dozens of stories of Glock pistols being recovered from insurgents, terrorists, and militiamen. They have been captured in cordon-and-search operations, in targeted raids, recovered in weapons caches, and taken from dead and wounded insurgents, militiamen, and criminals.
American soldiers also have them, as do civilian contractors. Ordinary Iraqi civilians (men and women) buy them to protect their families. Glock are quite likely the most ubiquitous handgun in Iraq, carried officially or unofficially by those on all sides, and those on no side at all.
But Franklin Foer's editors did not fact check any part of the murder claim made in "Dead of Night." That is clear, and in doing so, the editors' of The New Republic slipped from being loyal friends making an innocent mistake, into what can only be described as an overt case of editorial malpractice.
Had the editors of The New Republic actually edited this article and fact-checked it before publication, there is every reason to believe that these significant fact errors in "Dark of Night" would have eventually led to the quiet termination of Scott Thomas Beauchamp's writing career at The New Republic after one article.
But Franklin Foer and the other editors at The New Republic utterly failed in their editorial responsibilities.
Instead, the willful disregard of editorial standards allowed Beauchamp not only to libelously assign a murder based upon false claims, it also allowed him to later publish his most infamous post, "Shock Troops," in which he wrote three vignettes that effectively slandered every soldier in his entire company and within the other companies with which his unit served.
But this editorial dereliction of duty was by no means the greatest sin of the editors of The New Republic.
Once caught, they escalated their editorial incompetence with a series of readily apparent purposeful deceptions, dissembling to readers and critics alike.
Franklin Foer stated that The New Republic fact-checked "Shock Troops" before publication. That statement is an obvious falsehood. Foer's magazine utterly failed to fact-check the article prior to publication, and therefore had to move the time, location and underlying premise of Beauchamp's primary charge to another time and country when they did finally attempt to fact-check it well after publication.
Foer's editors attempted to further deceive readers and critics on at least two other known occasions.
The New Republic claimed to publish the findings of an internal investigation that they said vindicated the magazine, but was in actuality nothing more than an apparent attempt to save their jobs via a whitewash.
The magazine offered no named witnesses or experts, no evidence or testimony, and when one of the experts TNR claimed to have supported their story was located, it became abundantly obvious that TNR avoided a real investigation, did not provide him with any context, and was attempted to only provide itself with rhetorical cover. The attempt failed, miserably.
The magazine has also apparently made it a practice to bury dissenting viewpoints, such as when a military PAO based in Kuwait told TNR editor Jason Zengerle that the story was regarded as an urban legend or myth. Zengerle acknowledges he was told this, but the account was never published in The New Republic.
Foer's magazine then attempted to avoid responsibility for their editorial malpractice, purposeful deception, and account burying by blaming the Army, claiming that the Army was obstructing their investigation.
But the Army never obstructed any investigation by The New Republic. This is presumably fine, as The New Republic had no intention of really conducting one.
But now we are left with a magazine where the editors have moved beyond merely partisanship and incompetence to obvious willful deception of their readers and critics alike, and perhaps actionable fraud.
It remains to be seen how CanWest Mediaworks, owner of The New Republic and other media properties, will respond.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
Hey FYI:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/19/opinion/19jayamaha.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
Looks like we have a whole slew of Beauchamps. perhaps an in-depth look into how the NY Times was suckered in by these alleged "soldiers" is in order.
Most likely they are Al-Quaeda plants who joined the military with the sole purpose of collaborating on this op-ed. I suggest you spend the next several months thoroughly investigating their personal lives.
Posted by: over_educated at August 20, 2007 11:30 AM (mDtbo)
2
If Reeve was the fact checker, it looks like she was used/deceived twice by Beauchamp, as he started dating her while still engaged to someone else. Here's the
timeline.
It's almost enough to feel sorry for her.
Posted by: steve sturm at August 20, 2007 11:33 AM (sWhRW)
3
Yes, Beauchamp's articles may contain some untruths. They might be total fiction.
But it doesn't matter, does it? Because they sound plausible - everyone of us knows how ugly war is and how ugly it makes us.
Or has everyone forgotten Abu Ghraib?
Try all you want to wash this dirt off. It doesn't matter that you think you look clean - it's what the rest of the world thinks that really matters.
Posted by: Mad as Hell at August 20, 2007 11:43 AM (RAT1Y)
4
So Overeducated believes Beauchamp's vignettes are true because other soldiers write accurately about their experiences in Iraq?
Hmmm, clearly Overeducated is not over educated about the meaning of non-sequitur .
Posted by: Diggs at August 20, 2007 11:45 AM (6T736)
5
"...it's what the rest of the world thinks that really matters."
Boy, that's the Left's whole philosophy on foreign policy in 11 short words, isn't it?
And I thought Obama was naive.
Posted by: Diggs at August 20, 2007 11:50 AM (6T736)
6
Re: the NY times link above: There's a significant difference between calling one soldier a liar and then proving it (which is what the Beauchamp affair is all about), and attacking the opinions of a handful of other soldiers, which is demonstrably not what is happening here.
Posted by: steevus at August 20, 2007 11:57 AM (0c3za)
7
Steve Sturm - I noticed the same thing about the timeline. What's unclear is just how involved were Scott and Elspeth in January when TNR published his first diary. Did he find his way to TNR without her only to have a relationship rekindled (kindled?) with an old college chum? Seems unlikely. I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but considering they were apparently not an item in college or at the time of the first publication, perhaps Elspeth was really the catalyst for the whole thing. [dream scenario - "Hey Franklin, I know this guy from college who's going to Iraq and hates the war. Want me to get him to write some 'war is bad' stuff for us?"] Who can blame a wanna-be writer for falling instantly in love with the woman who gave him his first real gig. And perhaps the only reason she said "yes" to marriage was to keep the stories coming. OK, that last part is a bit far-fetched, but it's something to think about.
Posted by: mattb at August 20, 2007 12:23 PM (muiq1)
8
Over-educated says "Looks like we have a whole slew of Beauchamps."
I read the article and I didn't find a single reference to American soldiers engaging in morally repugnant activities for the amusement of themselves and their buddies. In fact, at the end of the article the authors clearly state that morale is not the issue. They have presented a well reasoned criticism of the current policy and a concern about the long term prospects for US military involvement in Iraq. Of course, General Petraeus has a different view, and has well reasoned arguments in favor of the current policy.
None of us knows for certain what the ultimate outcome will be of either approach, yet we must make a choice and deal with the consequences that follow. Reasonable people are going to disagree, but even when they disagree, those who are committed to serving the nation will complete the mission given to them to the best of their ability, as the authors of the article made clear. Those who serve only themselves don't offer reasoned dissent- they just slime the people they disagree with.
Posted by: JeanE at August 20, 2007 12:25 PM (DKP+b)
9
Gene Kelly directed a comedy in the mid-60s: "A Guide for the Married Man." In a series of blackout sketches, Robert Morse teaches Walter Matthau how to cheat on his wife.
One scene featured Joey Bishop and a beautiful young woman caught together in bed by his wife. While his wife raves on about his infidelity, Bishop pulls on his pants asks and asks, "What woman? What on earth are you talking about?" Meanwhile the girl is in the same room, calmly getting out of bed, dressing, and finally walking out the door.
While the wife babbles about his obvious infidelity, Bishop calmly collects himself and denies everything, telling his wife, "What are you talking about? There is no woman."
Soon the girl is gone, Bishop is sitting fully dressed in his easy chair, steadfastly denying that anything has happened. Eventually his wife doubts she ever saw anything. In the end she apologizes and begins to make dinner.
That's TNR's strategy in a nutshell.
Posted by: Ripper at August 20, 2007 12:30 PM (FoYPf)
10
It isn't actionable fraud. I guess the scenario would be this:
PLAINTIFF:
Hey, I paid $5 for your magazine (or maybe some library or other institution paid more for many copies), only because I reasonably relied upon your representation that you take care to tell the truth. Thus, because there's:
1) False representation,
2) Inducing,
3) Actual and Reasonable reliance,
4) Causing
5) Damages ($5)
TNR committed fraud.
Looks like the elements are met, however:
a) Was the reliance reasonable, when we know ideological magazines can be careless?
AND
b) More importantly, we know to a certainty that the court would uphold a 1st Amendment defense for ideological magazines and even strait general news reporting, else TRN, NRO, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, etc. would all be defending innumerable claims overnight, thus the "chilling effect," blah, blah, blah.
(For reporting of some discrete and objective information, e.g., stock prices, a First Amendment defense would not be dispositive.)
I've often thought I'd like to purchase a copy of the NYTimes just to sue them for fraud, but it wouldn't work (even if it would, I'd be the wrong plaintiff in a fraud case because I know they're lying.)
Good work on the TNR case.
Posted by: Kryon77@hotmail.com at August 20, 2007 12:32 PM (DCaMz)
11
"Yes, Beauchamp's articles may contain some untruths. They might be total fiction."
They are
certainly total fiction. Otherwise the
New Republic staff would have uncovered and publicized corroborating evidence by now. The location of the mass grave. The burned woman herself, coming forward to denounce those who heckled her. Photos showing Bradleys damaged by the kind of reckless driving Beauchamp described, or repair records proving that the damage occurred. Eyewitnesses to the events (according to Beauchamp, there were dozens at least).
The names of the soldiers who committed crimes -- Beauchamp served with them, so he must know who they are, right?
TNR has provided none of this evidence, because it does not exist. It does not exist because the events described in Beauchamp's account never happened.
"But it doesn't matter, does it?"
I don't know. Why don't you ask them TNR editors whether it matters to them? "Do you care whether the articles you publish are fact or fiction?" Let us know what they say. While you're at it, ask the TNR subscribers if it matters to
them. I'm guessing that it does.
Posted by: Pat at August 20, 2007 12:54 PM (0suEp)
12
"Yes, Beauchamp's articles may contain some untruths. They might be total fiction.
But it doesn't matter, does it?"
Mad [as in Insane] as Hell: Doesn't that sound like Evan Thomas' lame excuse for Newsweak when the Duke Lacrosse stripper-lies surfaced?
"The narrative was right, but the facts were wrong."
CA-RAAAZY-as-Hell is what you are, or else you're just the average CSJ graduate---cheating on your ethics exam.
Posted by: daveinboca at August 20, 2007 12:59 PM (muPb3)
13
"Or has everyone forgotten Abu Ghraib?"
I haven't forgotten it. I also haven't forgotten the wedding of Charles and Diana, or the space shuttle Challenger's destruction, or the famous Apple "1984" commercial. But I don't see how any of these things are relevant to the subject at hand, which is the editorial malfeasance of
The New Republic. How
is Abu Ghraib connected to that? Please explain it to us.
Posted by: Pat at August 20, 2007 01:01 PM (0suEp)
14
BTW, anyone who doesn't think Foer should be s***-canned for this absurd eff-up, puh-leeze tell us why.
One strike, you're out, on something the magnitude of this grotesque fakery.
Posted by: daveinboca at August 20, 2007 01:01 PM (muPb3)
15
"Who can blame a wanna-be writer for falling instantly in love with the woman who gave him his first real gig?"
I can, if he was already engaged to someone else at the time.
Posted by: Pat at August 20, 2007 01:09 PM (0suEp)
16
"Yes, Beauchamp's articles may contain some untruths. They might be total fiction.
But it doesn't matter, does it? Because they sound plausible - everyone of us knows how ugly war is and how ugly it makes us."
I think the proper translation of this is "Stereotypes are reasonable if I am the one doing the stereotyping. If you use stereotypes, it's because you're a a bigot."
Posted by: Anon at August 20, 2007 01:29 PM (fBYAu)
17
According to Miniter's article, McGee can't respond to his critics because of a "cease and desist" order TNR obtained against him. You can't just get a judge to tell somebody to shut up without some underlying legal claim on which to base such an injunction. What is the nature of the pending litigation? Does anybody know? It must be very interesting.
Posted by: Jim O'Sullivan at August 20, 2007 01:30 PM (6+o02)
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I'd guess that the cease & desist order is related to some sort of non-disclosure agreement that McGee had to sign at the time of accepting employment at TNR
Posted by: Bret at August 20, 2007 01:43 PM (JHRJI)
19
Jim
I agree, I thought liberals love "whistleblowers." In fact aren't "whistleblowers" protected by law?
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at August 20, 2007 01:48 PM (Lgw9b)
20
Bret and Capitalist Infidel:
Yeah, on further reflection,that's probably it. Interesting, though, that TNR makes people sign one. Whistleblowers are great,except when they're in your midst. I wonder how common they are in the business. And how restrictive they are in general, and how restrictive TNR's is.
Posted by: Jim O'Sullivan at August 20, 2007 02:39 PM (6+o02)
21
Re the infamous "square-backed" bullet: I always suspected that STB had originally written something about the mark of the Glock square-faced striker but that TNR editors "corrected" it because they didn't understand what he was saying.
Posted by: submandave at August 20, 2007 04:01 PM (UdYT0)
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Mad as Hell trots out the "fake, but accurate" defense! Of course! The only thing that really matters is "TRVTH," right?
Infidel: Whistleblower acts typically only protect those who object to or refuse to participate in illegal conduct.
Posted by: SWLiP at August 20, 2007 05:08 PM (WfQGW)
23
Interview with a lefty.
"What do you think of Beauchamp's article being debunked?"
"Abu Ghraib!"
"How about General Petraeus's success?"
"Abu Ghraib!"
"Army medics and doctors providing much-needed healthcare to Iraqis?"
"Abu Ghraib!"
Posted by: C-C-G at August 20, 2007 09:38 PM (447LE)
24
To Mad as Hell:
The Gulag!
Wow - I really do like that form of argument. Neat, efficient, and best of all - effortless!
Let's try one more.
Mao's Great Leap Forward!
So refreshing.
Cheers,
Jack Straw
Posted by: Jack Straw at August 20, 2007 10:54 PM (IStdj)
25
This sounds just like the incessant lefty criticism of Bush: "He's a cowboy." "He didn't wait for all the facts, he had his mind made up to attack Iraq before he argued the cases against Saddam." "He won't admit (what the left believes to be) mistakes." It'd be interresting to go through TNR and see how many of those type of articles they have published.
Posted by: brainy435 at August 21, 2007 08:27 AM (ozLpz)
26
Hmmmm.
So.
TNR still on vacation?
That's some serious vacation. Perhaps they occasionally dabble in quasi-journalism as a welcome break between vacations?
Posted by: memomachine at August 21, 2007 10:43 AM (3pvQO)
27
With all due respect to Mike Goldfarb (and plenty is due), if it hadn't been for the extraordinary journalism of Confederate Yankee and Ace of Spades HQ, TNR would have been able to frame this affair as an ideological dispute between competitors. TWS played an important role, but CY and AOSHQ did the heavy lifting. Y'all need to take a bow--because unlike TNR, y'all can stand by your story and sleep at night, too.
Salut, gentlemen.
Posted by: Dave at August 21, 2007 12:06 PM (h+ewl)
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Jack Straw, I have a better one.
"Chappaquiddick!"
Hey, that was fun!
Posted by: C-C-G at August 21, 2007 11:34 PM (447LE)
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To Mad as Hell,
"But it doesn't matter, does it? Because they sound plausible - everyone of us knows how ugly war is and how ugly it makes us.
Ok. Shut up. This idiot Beauchamp had to make stuff up to make it look worse than it is. He went to war hoping to return home with the movie-riffic "thousand yard stare" so he could scare hell out of the ladies and have the awe of his buddies.
And even more telling is that these petty offenses are the worst he could dream up. Seems much more antiseptic compared to trench warfare in WWI, doncha think?
Posted by: y7 at August 22, 2007 05:13 AM (Cixed)
30
...everyone of us knows how ugly war is and how ugly it makes us.
Sorry - never been to a war so I know no such thing. I'd speculate, however, that this particular war is large and complicated (you know...nuanced) and there's more to the story than just ugliness. Some people just aren't interested, though.
Posted by: Ted at August 22, 2007 11:19 AM (blNMI)
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August 17, 2007
The New Republic: Duck and Cover, Still
Tomorrow marks precisely one month since Michael Goldfarb published
Fact or Fiction? at
The Weekly Standard, calling into doubt the veracity of claims made by a soldier later revealed as Scott Thomas Beauchamp.
Since that time, key "facts" in two of three Beauchamp-authored stories have been discredited.
- Glock pistols do not fire a unique "square-backed" 9-millimeter pistol cartridge.
- Glocks, far from only being used by the Iraqi Police as the author claimed as he libeled the Iraqi Police for murder, are instead one of the more common handguns in Iraq.
- Thee was never a "burned woman" in the dining facility at Camp Falcon as the author alleged. Nor was there a burned woman at Camp Arifjan, Kuwait, a fact attested to by both named military personnel and named civilian contractors.
- There is no evidence there was ever a garbage-stratified grave as the author alleged (though there was a cemetery that was relocated), and no support than anyone could or would wear a section of rotting human skull under the close-fitting helmets currently used by the U.S. Army.
- There is no evidence of a dog-murdering Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicle driver, and literally dozens of Bradley crewmen, commanders, drivers, infantrymen, and even the spokesman for the company that builds the Bradley all consistently stating it is all but impossible for a Bradley to be used as the author described.
In addition to the factual problems published in the articles, there have been significant issues revealed about the editorial management of The New Republic, the magazine that published the claims of Scott Thomas Beauchamp, issues that should call into question their ethics and credibility.
- TNR editor Franklin Foer claimed on July 20 that, "I've spoken extensively with the author of the piece and have communicated with other soldiers who witnessed the events described in the diarist. Thus far, these conversations have done nothing to undermine--and much to corroborate--the author's descriptions. I will let you know more after we complete our investigation." Foer has never provided any corroborating details to support these claims, despite his promise.
- The editors claimed that "the article [Shock Troops] was rigorously edited and fact-checked before it was published." The fact of the matter is that TNR subsequently had to change the "burned woman" assault story from happening at FOB Falcon and as the result of the psychological trauma experienced by the author as the result of combat, to another location in another country before Beauchamp ever went to war, precisely because they did not rigorously edit or fact check the article before publication. This is a not only evidence of a lie by the editors when they said they "rigorously edited and fact-checked" the article before publication, it fatally undermines the entire premise of the article.
- TNR has not released, and appears to have purposefully hidden, unfavorable testimony of those it interviewed in the course of their investigation. We know that TNR editor Jason Zengerle admitted to John Podhoretz of The Corner that a Kuwait-based PAO regarded the "burned woman" story as a myth or urban legend, yet TNR editors have never revealed these findings as part of their investigation. So much for the promise to "release the full results of our search when it is completed." We have no way of knowing if they have hidden other unfavorable information.
- TNR's editors have led a purposefully vague investigation that does not disclose the names, qualifications, or expertise of anyone they claimed to have interviewed during the course of their investigation, hindering anyone who would like to follow behind them and verify the veracity of their claimed research. They have not disclosed the questions they asked their experts, and have thus far refused to provide their answers directly.
- One of the experts has been located and re-interviewed, and discloses the fact that he was never specifically interviewed about the claims made by Beauchamp at all. Further, once provided with Beauchamp's direct claims, he cited the physical properties and characteristics that would make Beauchamp's claims highly unlikely if not impossible. TNR staffers are well aware of his new, more fully-informed response, and have yet to respond.
In short, TNR's editors, led by Franklin Foer, have misled their readers, hidden testimony, and perhaps even rigged an investigation in order to claim some sort of vindication for their editorial and ethical failings.
A month into this story, it seems apparent that the Editors at TNR and their owners at CanWest MediaWorks have no intention at all of dealing honestly with the continuing editorial and ethical failures of this magazine.
Few people read The New Republic before they self-immolated their credibility. If there is any consolation to their deplorable behavior, it is the knowledge that their audience will grow smaller still as a result.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
This whole thing turns on people not understanding military culture. That is evident in these threads, it is evident in TNR's defense, it is evident in the original publication of these tales.
See here Peter Beinart, baffled and flailing, not understanding the
why of the upset Beauchump's stories created:
The Peter and Jonah show.
I saw a similar thing recently on the right. When Jon Stoltz shouted down that soldier at YearlyKos, at some point in his tirade he says something about 'not in my Army'. Somewhere on the right I saw it bandied about a bit that this was an example of how Stoltz was "narcissistic". Its not.
The whole "not in my Army" and "not in my Marine Corps" thing is drilled into recruits at boot. It is pounded into folks that their behavior is representative of the corps as a whole and the "not in my..." schtick is a tool used for that purpose. I must have heard "not in MY Marine Corps" a thousand times or more in my 6 years of service.
Stoltz using this language actually proved his service to me. I do not agree with his politics, but I am perfectly clear he 'got it' about military service.
What Beauchump does in his pieces is present the military *as a group* as running amok. What he says is that his unit has experienced what is called a Total Breakdown in Military Discipline.
That is possible, although very rare. It happened at Abu Ghraib. It occurs in that rare instance when a combination of factors come together - 1) little or no leadership at the command level, 2) poor leadership at the NCO level, 3) isolation and opportunity to misbehave, and 4) tendency to act out (lack of moral fiber).
That is not the norm. Abu Ghraib was stunning to me. Appalling. I was shocked into silence over it. Where was the NCOIC? Who the hell was the unit commander? Did the CG
never come by? Were there no inspections? How the hell could something like that happen?
Individuals acting out is not that rare. Unusual, but not rare. The military ferrets them out with a vengence. Breakdowns in discipline are death to military operations and are simply not tolerated. Ever.
What Beauchump would have you believe is a story that is little different in quality than the Abu Ghraib story, albeit different in scope. He tells a story of military
units acting out while others stand by and laugh. Of course, conveniently in Beauchump's fantasy he is the only one with a conscience, though driven to the brink by Bush' war of lies.
That story is bullshit. The reason it is important to people like me is it smears me directly. Beinhart (and others of his ilk) doesn't understand why people like me would be pissed about this, therefore we must be ideological crazies.
However one does not need to be an ideologue to be upset by TNR's publication of this nonsense and subsequent stubborn refusal to see it for what it is - one simply needs to have honorably served.
Posted by: DaveW at August 17, 2007 12:27 PM (McF+P)
2
Bob - Now *that* is an evisceration. (What you've done.) The thing you linked at Shield of Achilles the other day was more like just a "declaration of victory".
Posted by: tjmmz at August 17, 2007 01:07 PM (dAzoD)
3
I wouldn't be so sure that circulation will go down. There are a whole lot of far left wing fanatical moonbats out there. I wouldn't be surprised to see them sell even more magazines.
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at August 17, 2007 02:48 PM (Lgw9b)
4
Bob,
Having once been a TNR subscriber, my guess is that CI is correct.
Those of the center-left, Reagan Democrats, 9-11 Republicans, etc. have forsaken TNR because of its vitriol and invective aimed at all things W.
No, I don't think their readership will suffer, nor will their reputation, what's left of it anyway.
(Hyper-)Partisanship being what it is these days TNR's move will likely be farther to the left and its readership will grow.
Just sayin'.
Posted by: MTT at August 17, 2007 04:04 PM (g/2/8)
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Thanks, Dave W. My military service (USCG) concluded over 40 years ago and every time I hear someone smear the military I still have a real problem keeping my cool.
Posted by: Glenn at August 18, 2007 12:04 AM (iuBPg)
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To MTT's and CI's points about TNR's future, the magazine's circulation had already dived by around 40% (from ca. 100k to ca. 60k) in the last several years prior to Foer's editorship, and there's been no sign of improvement. There was always an inherent contradiction between TNR's intellectual aspirations and an appeal to the nutroots - who generally prefer their polemics crude, unhinged, and free. Making the magazine into a more pretentious, yet even less credible version of THE NATION is not a very good strategy for turning things around, in my opinion.
Posted by: CK MacLeod at August 18, 2007 12:27 PM (dvksz)
7
Hmmm... where's the usual lefty suspects trying to spin this one?
Posted by: C-C-G at August 18, 2007 01:42 PM (447LE)
8
Could be the posting problems that made comments inaccessible for much of yesterday. Or could be that they've run out of pointless slurs and transparent attempts to change the subject. Or could that they're still waiting for the other big shoe to drop on this one. Or could be that the damage has been done, the lies and bad faith have been exposed, and TNR is content to limp into the publishing sunset under a cloud of dishonor and ridicule, its editors and writers subjected to condescension and scorn. Or could be a combination of all of the above.
It will take some new twist in the story, I suspect - a firing, a resignation, a statement from STB, a revelation from behind the TNR scenes, a new attack in the MSM - to get people excited about this one again.
Posted by: CK MacLeod at August 18, 2007 02:50 PM (dvksz)
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As talked about in other places today the lawyers now have their fingers in the pie.
It's simply a lockdown and a blackout. Each time they opened their mouth they dug themselves in deeper.
Now it will be just stonewall and look for a quiet retreat.
Posted by: YardBird at August 20, 2007 10:47 PM (1aM/I)
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Yet Again: AFP's Photo Woes Continue
Fresh off of
being caught trying to pass off unfired civilian ammunition as evidence of soldiers shooting into the home of an elderly Iraqi woman, the French news agency Agence France-Presse (AFP) has been caught once again in a photography scandal involving the U.S. military, this time misidentifying a U.S. military photo taken by a member of the 173rd Airborne in Afghanistan last month as one of their own.
Here is the photo, as it ran Wednesday at BBC News.
(Click photo for full size)
You'll note that in the enlarged version of the page, the photo is credited "AFP" in the bottom right corner (The photo in the current version of the BBC article has since been changed).
The photo with the "AFP" stamp was not taken by an Agence France-Presse photographer, but by Sgt. Brandon Aird, 173rd ABCT Public Affairs, in Kunar Province, Afghanistan, and was first featured in this post by Sgt. Aird on Central Command's web site on July 31.
(Click photo for full size)
I've confirmed with an Army combat photographer that they cannot give or sell their photos directly to news agencies.
AFP misidentified this photo as one of their own, but it gets worse:
They were also apparently trying to sell the photo through AFP/Getty Images (via Daylife).
Once again, the photo editors of Agence France-Presse have some explaining to do.
[Author's note: Most of the information in this story was compiled by CY commenter Dusty Raftery. Excellent work, Dusty.]
Update: Dan Riehl notes that the BBC is using the photo as the teaser for a video segment that doesn't even involve U.S. soldiers. Truthy?
Update: Yup. It's our fault media credibilty is tanking.
Update: We get noticed.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Bravo, Dusty!
Lefty spin defending the photos coming in 5... 4...
Posted by: C-C-G at August 16, 2007 11:32 PM (eUgIf)
2
Just because they are stealing photos does not mean that everything is going fine in Iraq. I can't believe that you right-wingnuts Bushies are trying to pass of a little intellectual property theft as proof that Katrina was not a racist attack on Blacks. You guys have the lamest mindthoughts I have ever seen. Get a life.
Posted by: STB at August 17, 2007 01:16 AM (hgX7d)
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This is just a distraction from Jenna Bush's (alleged) pregnancy! I question the timing!
Nice catch, Dusty. Lies and the lying liars who publish them...
Posted by: Pablo at August 17, 2007 04:23 AM (yTndK)
4
Nice work. Now, a word of advice for the trolls is to go out this weekend and get yourself quoted in any newspaper regarding any event. You will get schooled on what the problem is without anyone of any political stripe having to tell you.
Artistis license belongs
here.
Facts should be found in our press.
Posted by: Joan of Argghh at August 17, 2007 07:13 AM (8F+iI)
5
The saddest part is, I can't tell whether STB is being facetious without sarc tags.
Posted by: Dan at August 17, 2007 07:16 AM (PJprg)
6
STB wrote: “Just because they are stealing photos does not mean that everything is going fine in Iraq.” I agree, you are absolutely correct with this statement. But you miss the point. These actions cause them to lose creditability. Place it in ordinary terms. If you knew a friend took credit for a heroic action that he/she did not perform, would you tend to believe him/her when said person told you about someone who was doing something improper in the neighborhood. I certainly would not believe what they said without a more proven creditable source. Keep in mind that the media is supposed to be fact based truth tellers. So if you tend to believe AFP and other media because they say what you want to hear, but they keep getting caught stretching the truth, then not only they have a problem.
Posted by: amr at August 17, 2007 07:23 AM (M7kiy)
7
Pablo is out of his mind, if he has one.
Any one who would steal from any one who is placing his self in danger for freedom, is below cheap.
Posted by: glen raiburn at August 17, 2007 07:24 AM (M7kiy)
8
I hate to say it, but the proper way to get AFP's attention is with a lawsuit. That may wake them up and create some publicity. If there is a collection to support the soldiers legal bills, let us know.
Posted by: Joel at August 17, 2007 07:26 AM (9lDNz)
9
I am a wire photographer, and from my personal experience, the Army frequently makes available photos from their combat photographers and other sources which News Agencies are invited to use. When that happens, the photo is credited to the wire agency/US Army(Marines or whoever made it available). When wire agencies make these available to their clients, the clients are free to abbreviate or even leave off the credit for layout flexibility and varying policies of different news outlets. As an example, in some Newspapers you will see Photographers Name/Agency under or beside a photo and in others only the Agency name. I appreciate that there have been some major errors by photographers in the past year or so, but it really is not that common. I have never personally known a photographer, and I know hundreds, who would willingly risk their reputation by faking an image. So while it is great to see that people are paying attention enough to call the infrequent instances of dishonesty to light; it is frankly quite ridiculous to see people rush off to judge pictures when they clearly are not, for the most part, technically capable of knowing one way or the other. Most people saying that the shadow looks funny generally have no clue. And it sounds like most people do not even know how wire agencies work. No offense is meant by my post, but please take a breath and ask someone who you trust, that knows the business before leveling these kinds of accusations.
Posted by: snapper at August 17, 2007 07:51 AM (nv0Tb)
10
Snapper:
I doubt anyone thinks a large number of photographers, who are hard working, in-the-trenches types, fake these photos. The fakes seem to be from a small group of propagandists. I DO have a big problem with the allegedly professional news services (e. g. BBC, Reuters, AP, AFP), being the willing, or unwitting, tools of these propagandists. Just as you are aggravated by bloggers who "have no clue" and are not "technically capable" of judging pictures, I am aggravated by allegedly professional news services who "have no clue" and are not "technically capable" of reporting on military news. They are so clueless that they can show pictures of pristine, unfired bullets, and represent them as bullets fired at an old woman's house, or use a blurry photo of a "GI Joe" doll and say it is a soldier being held hostage. These news services, however, are worse than clueless, because their (let's be kind) "mistakes" are always in one direction, evidencing bias.
Posted by: jmurphy at August 17, 2007 08:19 AM (h7lol)
11
I do like the coinage of the word rootout, though. Seems like a useful compound.
Posted by: rastajenk at August 17, 2007 08:20 AM (xs/uP)
12
Not to disparage the brave, honest, trustworthy and very clean people who snap pictures of people being blown up, and who would never stage a picture, or just happen to be there when terrorists execute a carload of good guys, and who would never dream of photoshopping a picture to give it more dramatic emphasis, or who would take pictures of red cross ambulances with perfect round holes where the roof vent used to be claiming they were made by a rocket attack. But Mr. Snapper, there seems to be a difference of opinion between you and my lying eyes.
Who to believe? It's a puzzlement.
Posted by: moneyrunner at August 17, 2007 08:24 AM (pcdWQ)
13
Snapper,
There is an AFP mark on the BBC article.
Lack of attribution is not the same as branding it.
You just don't brand other peoples cattle.
Posted by: RRRoark at August 17, 2007 08:24 AM (2+fmB)
14
Thanks for posting, snapper, but you don't see the photo being credited
in any way to the U.S. Army, do you? It isn't credited on the BBC News site, and there is no Army credit mentioned on the AFP/Getty Images site, where the picture was presumably for sale. Are you saying is is SOP for the wire services to take the work of others and try to sell it?
Somehow, I don't think that helps your case.
Nor was anyone stating that anyone was "faking an image," in this instance, so stop trying to throw in a red herring.
Before I posted this last night, I spoke to a U.S. Army photographer currently documenting the new offensive in the Diyala Province of Iraq, so I did, indeed, "ask someone I trust" before I posted. He also informed me in the past that he's seen on at least one occasion where the media "borrowed" one of his photos and not only did they not give him credit, they actually applied it to a completely different event, so that the real photo he took of the aftermath of a Tal Afar truck bombing became a Baghdad truck bombing several months later.
We're coming to understand how wire agencies work, snapper. That is why the world's opinion of the news media continues to plummet.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 17, 2007 08:24 AM (WwtVa)
15
STB, I certainly hope you're being sarcastic. Otherwise, you're entirely missing the point. This isn't about winning some kind of victory in Iraq. This is about showing just how credible the MSM is. Making stories up, Photoshopping pictures, stealing pictures, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Posted by: Brennan at August 17, 2007 08:26 AM (qzcNU)
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The french news agency - creditable ???? Lets get real. After all they believe THEY won WWII
Posted by: JIM at August 17, 2007 08:28 AM (DclLz)
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Hey Snapper, Your post reeks of elitist BS. Would you like to talk about the Lebanon War in which:
Bombed out buildings photographed with brand new plush toys?
Bombed out buildings with the same lunatic women?
Bombed out buildings with a brand new bicycle?
Photoshopped smoke.
Dead babies paraded around for hours for a photo shoot?
Iraq and Afghanistan:
Pictures of grieving ect ect ect but hardly a picture of our brave men and women in the thousands of humanitarian missions?
Please don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. I am the mother of an American Soldier watching this BS for five years running.
Your proffession is filled with terrorist supporting scum using propaganda to pull at the heart strings of the public, yet never have I seen any outrage by your profession. Why is that?
Posted by: Get Your Gun at August 17, 2007 08:30 AM (Ur1Cl)
18
The saddest thing is, I doubt STB is being sarcastic. I think he/she/it is actually sincere in his/her/its comments.
It's an old lefty trick, the "red herring." He/she/it cannot defend the actions of the photographer, so he/she/it tries to change the subject.
It's also possible that STB is a single-minded individual, and sees everything through the lens of Iraq. STB would probably find a way to fit Barry Bonds breaking of the home run record into Iraq.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 17, 2007 08:44 AM (447LE)
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STB has to be being sarcastic. 'katrina was a racist attack on blacks'? That's in Truther territory fer sure!
Posted by: Otter at August 17, 2007 09:07 AM (z/lU7)
20
aw, c'mon people. Of course STB was being sarcastic. The line about Katrina was the giveaway.
Posted by: iconoclast at August 17, 2007 09:12 AM (Yoolx)
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STB = Scott Thomas Beauchamp
I think this is a put on by STB.
Posted by: Laddy at August 17, 2007 09:13 AM (WEQwZ)
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Hello, Sorry if I came on a little strong last time. I do realise that this is a heated topic, but I am in no way a lefty - really. I just felt compelled to reply to this post, because I like to try to defend my profession when it is unjustly accused and help police it when the accusation is justified. In this case I believe that the premise, that AFP stole, or was trying to sell a soldiers work as their own, is false. It is possible, but given that AFP rarely "Sells" photos to websites such as BBC (AFP and most other wire agencies are subscriber based, and news outlets pay a monthly or yearly fee and get access to whatever the agency produces or distributes thus there is no real monetary reason why they would do this), and that that the soldiers work was likely made available through the U.S. Military which wants its material distributed as widely as possible. If that is not the case, I take it all back, but I believe what your friend was telling you is that he is not allowed to sell what isn't his. His photos belong to the U.S. goverment - and its nice work. I think if you check a little closer, you will find that the U.S. military made the photo available through a PAO or through one of their websites. As for the Tag in BBC, it just seems that BBC keeps the credit short for whatever reason. I'm not trying to deny that really bad judgment and mistakes have happened in news photography, just that in this instance, you are looking for something that isn't there
Posted by: snapper at August 17, 2007 09:24 AM (nv0Tb)
23
J.Murphy, I agree with you 100 percent, and The bullets hit my house photo was laughable. CY, I agree with you also. Not giving credit is poor policy, but its something which is common for photos in much of the news business. I much prefer getting credit, but it doesn't always happen. I read your site frequently, and generally enjoy it. I posted for the first time, because the subject is something that I know a bit about, and I wanted to shed some light if I could. Not here to stir up passions. Its just my (fairly informed) opinion, read it or ignore it as you wish. regards
Posted by: snapper at August 17, 2007 09:41 AM (nv0Tb)
24
snapper, I also might have come off a bit harsh, and I apologize for that.
But the fact of the matter is that if it is common in the news business to not give credit where it is due, then the ethical problems within journalism are far worse than I thought.
In any other profession, taking someone else's work and presenting it as your own through mislabeling it, misappropriating it, etc, is regarded as some sort of fraud, theft or plagiarism.
If Nike took a Reebok shoe and slapped their brand on it, that would be fraud. If Stephen King slapped his name on an Anne Rice novel and presented it as his own, that would likewise be a form of intellectual property theft.
In my mind, the same applies here. It is intelectually dishonest for wire agencies and other media outlets to slap their logos on photos and video that is not their own, and in my mind, at least, that the practice of such deception is common does not make it morally right, or even fit most wire services own written ethical standards as I understand them.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 17, 2007 09:55 AM (WwtVa)
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The image was released freely to the public captioned as follows:
U.S. Army paratroopers from Red Platoon, Charlie Troop, 1st Squadron, 91st Cavalry Regiment (Airborne) navigate to Observation Post Chuck Norris in Dangam, Afghanistan on July 25, 2007, in Dangam, Afghanistan. DoD photo by Sgt. Brandon Aird, U.S. Army. (Released) (Released to Public)
DoD photo by: SGT. BRANDON AIRD Date Shot: 3 Aug 2007
Link to DoD images:
Image number 070725-A-6849A-473
Full res version
Posted by: Dual Freq at August 17, 2007 10:00 AM (ro1Jl)
26
Snapper is correct. The photo on the BBC site and others by Sgt. Aird were "handouts" made available to wire services by the U.S. Army. The original caption by AFP identified the photographer as "Sgt. Brandon Aird." AFP doesn't dictate how its photos are captioned and credited -- that's up to the subscriber, in this case the BBC. Here are the orginal AFP captions for two of Sgt. Aird's photos:
"AFGHANISTAN, Naray: In this US Army handout picture taken 19 July 2007, Capt. Nathan Springer, Headquarters and Headquarters Troop Commander, 1st Squadron, 91st Cavalry Regiment (Airborne), looks at possible enemy positions during Operation Saray near Forward Operating Base Naray, Nuristan Province in eastern Afghanistan. Local Afghans use the area as a grazing pasture for livestock, while Taliban extremists often use it to stage attacks against US and ISAF forces. AFP PHOTO/U.S. ARMY/H0/Sgt. Brandon Aird."
"AFGHANISTAN, KUNAR: US soldiers patrol the mountain in the eastern province of Kunar, 01 August 2007. More than 50,000 western troops under a NATO-led peacekeeping deployment are based in Afghanistan to help rootout Taliban insurgents. AFP PHOTO/SGT. Brandon Aird."
Posted by: CG at August 17, 2007 10:04 AM (Lq+99)
27
Snapper,
It takes something like this to show you that these people aren't interested in letting information from a knowledgeable person get in the way of their assumptions and prejudices. These people know everything, and you don't know jack. It's a noble effort you made, but you'd better spend your time elsewhere.
The Army wants the work of its soldiers (photographs) distributed. That simple point is just lost on these folks.
Posted by: Dexter Westbrook at August 17, 2007 10:04 AM (P2Dd/)
28
Dexter, that the Army wanted these photos distributed was never in doubt... that is why Public Affairs exists. That
in no way excuses the (apparently widespread) practice of misrepresenting the work of the military as that of the wire services and/or news agencies.
That isn't an assumption or prejudice. That's common sense. Misrepresenting someone else's work as your own is wrong.
Or did you miss that day in ethics class?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 17, 2007 10:15 AM (WwtVa)
29
Snapper
Unfortunately those in your profession have done so much harm to your profession that your profession now exists at the bottom-of-the-trust-worthy-barrel.
Speaking only for myself, I don't believe in your profession anymore. I have zero faith that what you report/photograph/publish can be take at face value.
Please don't blame the consumers of your product when the product you produce is known to be full of crap.
You did this, you and your profession brought this about and now you must be held accountable for the actions you take.
In other words you screwed yourself out of what was once considered a worthly profession; you are worse than ambulance chasers.
Posted by: syn at August 17, 2007 10:38 AM (tUtn0)
30
I would say that there is no excuse for any agency, media outlet, etc. for not crediting the Army and/or Sgt. Aird. Change the caption all you like, just credit the proper source.
Sgt. Aird deserves the recognition of having one of his pics published by the BBC.
BTW, DoD maintains portfolios for most of the combat photographers on line at DVIDS. This suggests their view that the photographer has an important relationship with the photo.
Remember Michael Yon's fight, BTW. The same thing was done to him.
Posted by: Chuck Simmins at August 17, 2007 10:54 AM (HeNaU)
31
In my mind, the same applies here. It is intelectually dishonest for wire agencies and other media outlets to slap their logos on photos and video that is not their own, and in my mind, at least, that the practice of such deception is common does not make it morally right, or even fit most wire services own written ethical standards as I understand them.
Dear Genius,
Have you ever watched a courtroom trial? They use what is called a "pool feed." But guess what. Each news agency slaps their branding chyron on the footage. Also, every brand of clothing from Gap to Armani buys patterns, fabric and finished products from a range of suppliers.
Your allegation of an journalistic fraud is overstated. You obviously take the label of citizen journalist seriously. However you should familiarize yourself with the inner workings of your industry before you go around accusing others of malpractice.
All of sudden journalism is in dire straits. Yet for the past decades of your life, you somehow failed to notice. I'm glad you found some allies who support your revolution in news gathering. You're changing the world.
You really are.
Posted by: stringer at August 17, 2007 11:11 AM (E319x)
32
stringer, we're not talking about a courtroom feed nor clothes, and you're being intellectually dishonest in making the comparisons. Sadly, I think you know that.
If the "inner workings" of the business go against the stated ethical policies of the wire services, the individual news outlets, and the military itself (which, as
SoccerDad points out via email,
is to "Request credit be given as "Photo Courtesy of U.S. Army" and credit to individual photographer whenever possible.") then journalism is indeed in a very bad state of affairs.
I did indeed notice the failure of journalism in the few earlier decades of my life, but I simply didn't have the platform I do now to highlight them.
And I
do have that platform now, stringer.
Heh.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 17, 2007 11:37 AM (WwtVa)
33
I guess it's nice that morons like you, Confederate Yankee, have platforms to spew your gibberish.
AFP is the distributor of the photo. Any other agency or individual could distribute the photo and put its logo on it. The Army encourages distribution of its photos, for crying out loud. Would the photographer want his image cluttered up by putting his name, his U.S. Army affiliation, his unit and every other bit of attribution that you want on top of it? Your yammering about "ethics" is completely irrelevant. Sadly, I think you know that.
Posted by: Dexter Westbrook at August 17, 2007 12:19 PM (P2Dd/)
34
The primary reason I brought this to CY's attention the use of this photo and the caption in the BBC article. I had just read the "Chuck Norris, Mr. T keeps Dangam safe" article at Centcom maybe a week earlier and the photo stuck in my mind. It's a US DoD photo, it isn't AFP's. And it isn't Getty's, either. Note in the original BBC article that the caption reads, "The offensive involves ground troops and airstrikes" relating to an offensive in a different province and three weeks later than this photo represents and involved no air strikes. In fact, the story which this photo represents has very little to do with a operational offensive and everything to do with stabilization; defensive protection operations; rebuilding; and civilians residents welcoming the troops at every turn. Where was that story in the MSM, I wonder?
Why does BBC honor the AFP brand logo on the photo when they could just as easily put a BBC logo on this publicly released photo? Why does DayLife label it AFP/Getty when it is US DoD? ( I would like to know why it's at DayLife and not at Getty, but that is another subject.) Again, it's free for them to use, not free for them to claim. The use is for editorial purposes, yet here AFP is attaching their commercial advertising to the bottom of it -- for what reason? That AFP added it to a news service photo database? Is that the rationale for AFP getting to paste their logo on it and everyone else having to honor it?
Anyway, now we see (via Dan Riehl) BBC using it "editorially" for a story that has more to do with Brits ramping up "to fight a resurgent Taliban, booming drug trade," ... yada, yada, yada, when it is really being used commercially by the BBC to hype their brand of bad news. When will our troops get the poster boys "Troops move to count civilian dead after another indiscriminate airstrike" treatment as a teaser for another BBC brand of story?
Sorry about the last bit. That was excessive hyperbole, except for making the point that this is not what the DoD releases photos for. They release it for and with the caption that is released with it and is embedded in the photo file. So, I'll stick with the basics that CY has, IMO, accurately and appropriately called AFP on. When DoD releases a photo, the news agencies can use it, not claim it. And the attribution of USDoD, not AFP, should be identified even on the Getty or DayLife site, and not relegated to being embedded in the photo that no one pays attention to, including the news agencies.
Posted by: Dusty at August 17, 2007 12:22 PM (1Lzs1)
35
Dusty, as I indicated in my earlier post, AFP made it clear who actually took the photo. AFP did not "claim" the photo and it did not add the logo. It was the BBC that decided not to ID the photographer and it was the BBC that pasted the AFP credit in the bottom right corner of the image. The BBC does the same thing with Associated Press (AP) photos, and it never identifies the photographer on photos it gets from a wire service. The BBC is merely indicating where it obtained the photo. That can be misleading, as with the Aird photo, because readers assume the credit indicates who actually took the picture. Sure, it's a lazy practice, but, again, the BBC does this with all wire photos. To blame AFP is just plain wrong.
Posted by: CG at August 17, 2007 12:51 PM (Lq+99)
36
One reason AFP ditched the military credit and cutline was probably to disguise the fact that the photo illustrates operations in Dangham (Kunar Province) while Tora Bora is in Nanghar Province.
Posted by: Jim Graves at August 17, 2007 01:13 PM (pt9Tn)
37
Does this mean I can start pulling new agency pictures off the web and put my name on them? "Look at the places I've traveled and the people I've seen!"
Posted by: Patrick at August 17, 2007 01:32 PM (bPf7o)
38
[CG at August 17, 2007 12:51 PM]
I understand that the primary attention is on the AFP and that the BBC is ultimately responsible for not doing the crediting they should do. So, partially granted, CG, though I think your argument is presumed.
Did the BBC get it from an AFP database site? Or from Getty's? Or somewhere else? If from Getty, why not Getty instead of AFP? It is unfortunate that this particular photo is an informationally cribbed version of what one might find at the Getty site and for some odd reason that I find inexplicable, the Getty site doesn't have this one now.
But look at this "AFP" (#74981490) photo that is on Getty and let's talk some more about who is doing all but ignoring the source and photographer while taking the credit for the photo itself and not the just putting it on a database for access to "AFP" photos. AFP (or Getty?) couldn't put their label in more places if they tried, IMO.
Search using the number, 'cause it is directly unlinkable: http://editorial.gettyimages.com/Home.aspx
(It may give you a location/language preface screen.)
Posted by: Dusty at August 17, 2007 02:37 PM (1Lzs1)
39
[Dexter Westbrook at August 17, 2007 12:19 PM]
It's the folks with attitudes like yours, Dexter Westbrook, who contribute most to bastardizing journalistic ethics.
AFP is not distributing this photo. USDoD is distributing this photo. AFP is just taking them up on the offer. And DoD is distributing it with the caption, which is embedded, to the public. In my previous comment I am only guessing that AFP is the one to "find" the photo and add it to some database. Getty added it to their database, hence the added Getty attribution. USDoD is now relegated to the dustbin.
If anything, in USDoD cases and the like, this logo crapola should be a matter of internal "industry" attribution, not whose photo it is. AFP can demand the courtesy of attribution for adding it to a database, if they want, but that is a different universe from that in which it is used by news organizations, where the public sees it as the AFP having produced it. It's no wonder the real credits and captions get wiped like dust on a picture -- inclusion would belie the reason for the logo and what it is supposed to be used for.
That AFP imposes it with their logo, in the process denying it to USDoD who is releasing it, represents nothing more than the rationalized ethics of an industry concerned more with self-interested commerical gain than it does with anything professionally journalistic.
The gibberish is not coming from CY. He's just trying to cut through the misleading gibberish of the MSM. Your sputtering gibberish about requiring a ten line credit is hilarious. A USDoD/AFP would be fine with almost everyone, I think.
Posted by: Dusty at August 17, 2007 02:48 PM (1Lzs1)
40
Pressmen:
Frankly, I've had suspicions of the press since the 70's, generated by listening to shortwave radio broadcasts by VOA, BBC,Radio Hanoi, and Radio Moscow during the Vietnam war. More than making me aware of intentional bias by reporters, it made me aware of
unintentional bias by reporters.
While many people have been suspicious of the accuracy of the Press over the years, it wasn't until the internet became widely available that the claims of reporters could be easily fact-checked.
Contrary to the images of Walter Cronkite and Edward R. Murrow which were pasted onto reporters in general, we've discovered what we should have already known.
Reporters are humans and, as such, are unreliable, biased, lazy, and motivated by things other than telling the public the truth. Even those who try to tell the truth see the world through the filter of their environmental influences.
Well, in most TV and Newspaper newsrooms those environmental influences are all the same. The days of suspicions with no way to fact check the reporters are over. Reporters are going to have to expect to be questioned and challenged on their claims.
Those who believe in evolution know what happens when all the animals in an environment are identical and the climate changes. They die out.
Posted by: Lokki at August 17, 2007 04:35 PM (wSBsc)
41
Dusty,
At an earlier time in my life, I was the managing editor of a newspaper. I never considered myself or any of my reporters or photographers as facilitators of the news. Our MOD was what, when, where, and why.
The complete lack of any ethics in the print media today is a product of Leftist journalism programs at colleges and universities, where students are indoctrinated with Left-wing dogma. A once proud profession has been reduced to its current state by the likes of people like Dexter Westbrooke. Pathetic, and dangerous in the long term, as the people now have little trust in the media.
Posted by: templar knight at August 17, 2007 04:39 PM (2LEwd)
42
Dusty, I'm not presuming anything. The BBC got the photo from the AFP ImageForum site, which is accessible only to subscribers. (I have access through my job.) AFP also partners with Getty Images and other image providers to share photos, which is why you sometimes see an AFP/Getty credit. When a subscriber downloads a photo from AFP or Getty, the photographer's name is included. That goes for the photo used by the BBC. AFP identifies the photographer as Sgt. Brandon Aird. The BBC chose not to include that information. That's their standard policy on wire photos -- regrettable perhaps, but AFP can't force subscribers to credit photographers. And AFP does not put its logo on photos -- the BBC did that. If you want, I can send you a screen capture of the AFP ImageForum page with the photo used by the BBC. It identifies the photographer and there is no logo on the image.
As for the other AFP/Getty image you referred to (#74981490), clicking on the thumbnail shows the photographer as SPC Daniel Love and identifies the photo as a handout (HO) from Coalition Forces. http://tinyurl.com/22ox7j
CY's allegation that AFP "has been caught once again in a photography scandal involving the U.S. military" is flat out wrong. AFP has certainly been guilty of shoddy journalism before, but this time they are blameless.
Posted by: CG at August 17, 2007 05:45 PM (Lq+99)
43
So basically, these guys are saying lying to the public is OK, because we've always lied to the public.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 17, 2007 05:46 PM (7pxQ8)
44
Agreed Templar. Journalism has changed the last few decades and not for the better. What had not been clear for those who watched is who did the changing.
Posted by: Dusty at August 17, 2007 05:51 PM (1Lzs1)
45
Sneering at your customers when they expect more rigorous ethical behavior is a good way to lose customers.
What we're seeing here is precisely how dubious the industry accepted ethical standards of this news business really are in practice, and its not a very pretty picture.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 17, 2007 05:58 PM (7pxQ8)
46
[CG at August 17, 2007 05:45 PM]
Yeah, CG, send me the screencap of the page and if you can send me a screencap of the terms of use that are placed on subscribers. I'd be interested in reading what AFP requires and limits of their users.
Posted by: Dusty at August 17, 2007 07:38 PM (1Lzs1)
47
So this is basically like the Russian sub at the North Pole story the 13-year-old Finnish boy busted for using footage from the Titanic film, or the photo shopped clouds of smoke in Beirut. I could go on and on. But basically the MSM expects us to be mind-numbed consumers.
Posted by: senor doeboy at August 18, 2007 01:27 AM (oeqWH)
48
Worse news for them is that they expect this to work in an age that the modern media consumer is blitzed daily by Madison Avenue. We have politicians that try to redefine what "IS" is, on nearly every interview show. And we have more information at our fingertips on the Internet then the Librarian of Alexandria could ever dream of.
Posted by: senor doeboy at August 18, 2007 01:28 AM (oeqWH)
49
Then they whine and complain, bringing up all sorts of excuses, irrational arguments, screaming for us just to take their word at face value. Your credibility is shot. It’s not for me to fake like I believe you, but for you to prove yourselves. Clean up your acts, have your editors do their jobs, and crack open your old ethics coarse books for a review. Otherwise be prepare to see public opinion of your “Profession” to sink lower, if it can.
Posted by: senor doeboy at August 18, 2007 01:29 AM (oeqWH)
50
wow- twice in one month people are using and abusing my photos...
well at least there getting published
respectfully
Sgt. Aird
Posted by: brandon aird at August 18, 2007 01:51 AM (V+5rz)
51
Wow, this is certainly a heated conversation and I've enjoyed the arguments, but one that I think needs an outsider's opinion injected. When I read a story, I may or may not look at who took the photo but I think the proper thing to do is to give credit to the photographer who is an artist of sorts IF you know who took it...bloggers (and i have been guilty of it) often do not do that either.... so shame on us too.
However, when ones business is journalism and you pride yourself on "unbiased" news the organization and its personnel should take measures to avoid all appearances of shady character. Taking credit (or appearing to) for a piece of art (which photo's are) is shady.
The main issue I have however is that the photograph really isn't realated to the current story. That to me is misleading, even if the photo looks like it does, a photo that goes inside a story should be taken FOR the story...period. Anything else just isn't adding to the story, it's like saying we couldn't come up with anything new so here's something old...that we are taking credit for.
When people read a news story they expect the accompanying photo to be part of said story. This may be a simple minded approach, but think of me as representing the simple minded news readers out there.
Mr B
Deployed Navy Blogger
Posted by: Mr Bob at August 21, 2007 06:40 PM (bitxf)
52
actually now that I go back and look at it again, it pisses me off more. Even though the photo was taken months earlier, they make it appear as though it is a recent photo of the current ops, a scoop photo like "we were there". That to me is dishonest. The bloggers here are right, just another nail in the coffin of big journalism.
Mr B.
Deployed Navy Blogger
Posted by: Mr Bob at August 21, 2007 06:48 PM (bitxf)
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