June 30, 2007
DeCapiGate
The Associated Press, Reuters, and a small Iraqi Independent news agency called Voice of Iraq released stories Thursday about the massacre of 20 men near Salman Pak, who were supposedly found decapitated on the banks of the Tigris River.
But something seemed inherently wrong with the accounts I read from the Associated Press. The only two sources for the Associated Press article were anonymous police, not located in Salman Pak, but from Baghdad (more than dozen miles away) and Kut (more than 75 miles away).
Because of this odd sourcing, I asked Multi-National Corps-Iraq and the PAO liaison to the Iraqi Ministry of the Interior to investigate.
I published their preliminary findings as they came out in Bring Me The Head of Kim Gamel.
This morning, MNF-I PAO published an official denunciation of this story:
June 30, 2007
Release A070630c
Extremists using false media reporting to incite sectarian violence
BAGHDAD, Iraq – Friday, news media reported a mass killing in a village near Salman Pak where 20 men were allegedly found beheaded. It now appears that the story was completely false and fabricated by unknown sources.
Upon learning of the press reports, coalition and Iraqi officials began investigating to determine if the reports were true. Ultimately it was concluded the reports were false.
Anti-Iraqi Forces are known for purposely providing false information to the media to incite violence and revenge killings, and they may well have been the source of this misinformation.
“Extremists promote falsehoods of mass killings, collateral damage and other violence specifically to turn Iraqis against other Iraqis,” said Rear Admiral Mark Fox, spokesperson for MNF-I. “Unfortunately, lies are much easier to state, the truth often takes time to prove,” said Fox.
Not all media reports can be immediately substantiated by Government of Iraq or Coalition Forces. They must go through a process to verify such claims, to include checking with various Iraqi MinistryÂ’s, local police and security forces. Meanwhile, extremists have achieved their goal of spreading false information aimed at intimidating civilians and destabilizing Iraqi security.
Ultimately, media reporting based on verifiable sources will reduce the possibility of misinformation unnecessarily alarming citizens.
The Associated Press, Reuters, and Voices of Iraq should immediately apologize for publishing this completely false story, and push for immediate retractions. The Associated Press should admit full responsibility for not following good journalistic practices of verifying a story though legitimate responsible sources, as they were in a headlong, reckless rush to publish.
Update: Something somewhat related, from StrategyPage:
...the Japanese psychological warfare effort during World War II included radio broadcasts that could be picked up by American troops. Popular music was played, but the commentary (by one of several English speaking Japanese women) always hammered away on the same points;
- Your President (Franklin D Roosevelt) is lying to you.
- This war is illegal.
- You cannot win the war.
The troops are perplexed and somewhat amused that their own media is now sending out this message.
(Thank Ace for the title of this post)
Update: AFP is now carrying the story.
The US military accused the international media on Saturday of exacerbating Iraq's violent tensions by reporting false claims of massacres which it said were deliberately fabricated by extremist groups.
This week several newspapers and agencies reported that Iraqi police had found 20 beheaded corpses in Salman Pak, just south of Baghdad.
AFP did not carry the report after its sources were unable to confirm the rumour.
Wouldn't it be nice if the Associated Press had those same standards?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:23 AM
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Post contains 584 words, total size 4 kb.
1
You mean the Jihadis would lie to foment violence?
I'm confused. I thought it was only Americans and their toady cohorts who were the liars in this war.
Posted by: wjo at June 30, 2007 10:23 AM (mx9RX)
2
CY, just a note on your opening paragraph, here. The news report was 20 men, aged 20 to 40. You've had it right elsewhere.
Posted by: Dusty at June 30, 2007 11:23 AM (GJLeQ)
3
Thanks Dusty. Fixed.
Such are the perils of posting before your first cup of coffee.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 30, 2007 12:00 PM (HcgFD)
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 30, 2007 02:10 PM (fdMig)
5
Commendable as always. Keep spreading the news!
I know
we will.
Posted by: Tully at June 30, 2007 04:25 PM (kEQ90)
6
Great catch, Confederate Yankee!
What an unbelievable world we live in where the media would rather quote terrorists than the military.
This is a classic!
Posted by: Jim Hoft at June 30, 2007 04:35 PM (Rxv1x)
7
NPR reported this on June 28th too:
It's at 4:57+ on the audio:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11501334
Posted by: Ann at June 30, 2007 04:44 PM (mmTiT)
8
But..but...but, the MSM has all of those "multiple layers of fact-checking". How can they be wrong? Could it be that they have an agenda?
Posted by: GarandFan at June 30, 2007 05:30 PM (+tCxF)
Posted by: ajacksonian at June 30, 2007 06:35 PM (oy1lQ)
10
And we should take as gospel truth whatever the U.S. military says, shouldn't we? I suppose we ought to just forget about that whole psyops operation about planting stories in the Iraqi media and passing them off as the work of independent Iraqi journalists. They were all true stories I'm sure, so why the bother?
In the news today there was a report on an operation in Sadr City, where as reported by the MNF, 26 "terrorists" were killed. They state that all 26 were combatants who were all shooting back at our soldiers. Mind you, this account is completely at odds with reports from residents, hospital officials, and Iraqi police, who report that eight civilians were killed in their homes and that the U.S. went in firing indiscriminately. I myself find it a bit hard to believe that not a single civlian in that densely packed area was not killed in the crossfire.
You can talk about Afghanistan, where civilian deaths reported by residents and the Afghan government itself, up to Hamid Karzai, routinely and vociferously dispute the accounts given by the U.S. military in its operations there. They can't both be right.
I guess my point is, if you're largely relying on the U.S. military for the ultimate veracity on these things, I think history has shown that they are far from being an unbiased observer. They have their own axe to grind in wanting to portray events there in a positive light.
Posted by: Arbotreeist at June 30, 2007 08:56 PM (N8M1W)
11
should take as gospel truth whatever the U.S. military says, shouldn't we?
As opposed to planted jihadi propaganda, right?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 30, 2007 10:05 PM (fdMig)
12
And the fact that the U.S. military has an axe to grind disproves CY's point about AP's bias...... how?
The problem is not that AP, Reuters, and the rest of the lame-stream media are biased. The problem is that THEY ARE NOT HONEST about their bias. They feed us BS and pretend it's truth.
Until the LSM stops mindlessly printing BS, the U.S. military is the best we've got. Just remember they're human and will shade the truth their way.
Posted by: Hale Adams at June 30, 2007 10:59 PM (9D5Uv)
13
Reuters is now running a story headlined, "US says report of 20 beheaded bodies in Iraq false." Mind you, the headline of the original story was "Iraqi police find 20 beheaded bodies near Baghdad," not "Iraqi police say other Iraqi police miles away find 20 beheaded bodies."
And the new Reuters piece comes with its own punchline:
"Verifying reports in Iraq is very hard for journalists, who have been systematically targeted by different militant groups and rely extensively on local sources for information."
No such language appears in the original story, natch. Because when reporting some sensational piece of violence to weaken Western morale, why remind people that you're reporting unverified anonymous hearsay? Those who don't want to buy the US military statement must admit that at least Rear Admiral Mark Fox was a named source in the statement. Not that you would know this from the Reuters story, who leaves his name out.
Posted by: Karl at June 30, 2007 11:24 PM (zBSvJ)
14
Good points, Hale. One quibble. The military is held accountable by the media, and derivatively by the people. As a result they are very responsive to questions, followup and correction.
Application of this kind and degree of accountability for the media itself had not existed until blogs became popular and became involved in doing so. What has been uncovered is just as bad and often worse than the what the left paints the military's reputation as, based on it's long history and not on it's current conduct, yet the MSM demands to be free of that accountability because their's is a freedom of speech not bound by questions of ethical conduct and, it appears, not by their professional standards, either. Hence, their equivacations, dissembling and outright lies.
I find it hard to see Arbotreeist's attack on an accountable military and defense of a largely unaccounable press, here, as anything other than caring more about the meme than the truth.
Posted by: Dusty at July 01, 2007 12:05 AM (GJLeQ)
15
I just saw this
story via the USA Today with an AP byline.
The time stamp currently reads 2hrs. 28min which means it was posted around 11pm Eastern on June 30.
Do they want everyone to miss it?
Posted by: Teresa at July 01, 2007 12:25 AM (gsbs5)
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Did you say it would be great if the AP acted like AFP?
Careful what you ask for.
Posted by: Kevin at July 01, 2007 03:20 AM (1cRKV)
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I'm shocked -
shocked I tell you, to read this. I haven't heard of such a thing since
the last time the news reported a bogus headless bodies story.BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Separate groups of gunmen entered two primary schools in Baghdad on Wednesday and beheaded two teachers in front of their students...
*****
"We sent a crew and they spoke with witnesses in front of the school, and they say nothing happened. We spoke to the guard at the school who says 'I was here from early morning until they (the kids) left, and nothing happened," said a representative of one of the agencies.
"We went to both schools and no one confirmed it. We even went to the local police station and they denied it happen. This thing you canÂ’t hide. The kids saw nothing,"
Or the
time before that...BAGHDAD, Iraq, March 26 (NY Times) — The bodies of 30 beheaded men were found on a main highway near Baquba this evening, providing more evidence that the death squads in Iraq are becoming out of control.
*****
Q: About, on the news that we heard this week of a number of headless bodies being found along a road in Baghdad. I was wondering what more you could tell us about that, what you know about the victims, and who the perpetrators were?
GEN. THURMAN: Okay. I did understand that question, and what I would tell you -- we have not confirmed that report. We went to multiple sites to look for the 32 headless bodies that was reported to our headquarters, and we did not find anything; nor did any of the local citizens that were in these areas could verify that anybody had ever been in there. So I look at that report as completely false right now.
Posted by: Greyhawk - in Baghdad at July 01, 2007 05:00 AM (Ww3Ko)
18
Arbortreeist,
As someone who has been to Expeditionary Information Operations school in which Pysops planning was part of the curricullum I can tell you the first rule of psyops is always tell the truth, can the same be said of the MSM?No I don't thionk so. I find it disheartening how many American citizens would rather give the benefit of the doubt to MSM outlets which have been shown over and over again to be passing jihadist propaganda off as truth than their own military. As for the Sadr city story I can tell you from first hand experiance the IP is almost wholly corrupted by the JAM and other Sadrist organizations and cannot be trusted.
Posted by: Oldcrow at July 01, 2007 06:23 AM (q7b5Y)
19
Pretty near every soldier in Iraq wants to get their name, and hopefully their picture, in a newspaper so the folks back home can see that they are well. To this end, they will cooperate with the reporters that they occasionally find nearby on their FOB. Conversely, nearly every soldier believes that the reporters they do see will lie about them, their fellow soldiers, their mission, or their actions in order to forward an agenda based mostly on BDS. I've sat in DFACs around Iraq and watched as soldiers laughed at reports out of Iraq; reports on actions that these scoffing soldiers had taken part in. Or heard them comment on, or made comments myself on, the ridiculous reports based on one lying Iraqi government official or another. In the end, the soldiers understand the need for a reporting from the war; but having seen the cowardice, distortions, and outright lies of reporters in Iraq, and the reporting of enemy propaganda by editors here in CONUS as legitimate news, they will carry a very healthy skepticism of the reporting of the MSM for the rest of their lives. That's not a bad thing.
Posted by: Diggs at July 01, 2007 08:14 AM (6T736)
20
I sent an e-mail to the "corrections" mailbox at NPR showing them the USA article.
I'm not holding my breath!
Posted by: Ann at July 01, 2007 10:44 AM (mmTiT)
21
Arbortreeist As OldCrow notes, there is a "small" difference that you have glossed over.
Truth
The PsyOp group was going to have publicized TRUE stories that were underpublicized. And offer rewards for independantly publicized TRUE stories.
Kind of like the space "X-Prize" for Iraqi journalism, it was hoped that positive TRUE stories would be told in the hopes that Iraqi journalists would compete with each other to search out and tell TRUE stories positive to the American (or at least Coalition) military interests.
A virtuous cycle I have heard it called.
Instead of the current cycle of stories harmful to American military interests, true or not (mostly not) that are the sole rewarded stories told by the various Western and Arab MSM now.
Posted by: J'hn1 at July 01, 2007 12:19 PM (sd4un)
22
Until we hear from a more reliable source - perhaps from someone hire up in the Iraqi Police hierarchy,like Captain Jamil Hussein, or someone of that stature- I would not rely on the MNF 1PAO report, nor would I demand of the AP to retract their story. However, if this massacre does prove to be false, I would agree with you that some heads should start rolling. I would also demand that the AP see to it that those 20 men get their heads returned to them as soon as possible. The AP is the agency responsible for the removal of those heads and they should do whatever is in their power to make sure those heads are returned to their rightful owners. I just can't imagine what it must feel like to live life completely headless - nor am I interested in trying it out myself.
Once again, I'm still not sure who's playing the head games over there, but at least I'm glad to see that you're checking in to authenticity of this story. We should all follow your example and use our heads just a little bit before we accept the veritability of these head-twisting stories, which apparently also have no legs to stand on.
Posted by: Peter Headlessman at July 01, 2007 05:20 PM (aTZaE)
23
Arbotreeist has violated the rule of excluded middle. Probably intentionally.
Posted by: brando at July 01, 2007 07:48 PM (rDQC9)
24
With the Magick Apparatus of Conspiracy, True Believers can
confirm the negative. Despite the
words of Terrorists themselves, they adhere to the Foreign Policy Principle to cast blame in every direction at their true enemy, the US.
Posted by: DirtCrashr at July 02, 2007 12:19 PM (VNM5w)
25
The Japanese propaganda machine was blaring the 'this war is illegal' poison? I did not know that; that is very interesting.
Whose permission did they grovel for before bombing the hell out of Pearl Harbor?
Good job on this, CY!
Posted by: Cindi at July 02, 2007 03:02 PM (asVsU)
26
Shades of the Newsweek Koran-toilet-flushing tripeÂ… The more sensational, anti-American, and anti-military it is, the better. Somewhere, Joseph Goebbels is smiling.
Posted by: SFC MAC at July 02, 2007 03:09 PM (e7p1h)
27
The PsyOp group was going to have publicized TRUE stories that were underpublicized.
That's the problem in a nutshell. The left, historically, has a large problem with truth.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at July 02, 2007 04:34 PM (CmXp+)
28
"That's the problem in a nutshell. The left, historically, has a large problem with truth."
Lessee, trying to remember... who's side is it again that believes that humans walked with dinosaurs, that the earth is 6000 years old, and that Noah filled up his ark with pairs of all the animals in the world and a flood covered the earth? Oh yeah...that would be the conservative side. But we're the ones with the truth problem. Got it.
Posted by: Arbotreeist at July 02, 2007 06:40 PM (N8M1W)
29
Yes you do have a problem with the truth and you prove it with your last post, nice ignore all the points made and stereo type all people of faith and conservatives, can you say straw man? Or how about close minded fool?
Posted by: Oldcrow at July 03, 2007 03:15 AM (q7b5Y)
30
Oldcrow, he doesn't know the difference between a belief, and an outright lie. He is either a college boy who needs some instruction from an adult, or he is a tool. Yep, close-minded fool just about covers it.
Posted by: templar knight at July 03, 2007 03:19 PM (8dlH8)
31
He was talking about his "side" on thread about terrorism. Roger that. It's nice to see people fess up to it sometimes.
Posted by: brando at July 03, 2007 09:25 PM (rDQC9)
32
"Yep, close-minded fool just about covers it."
Anyone have a chainsaw handy? I'll need it to cut through the irony of that comment.
Posted by: Arbotreeist at July 04, 2007 09:34 PM (N8M1W)
33
I am always searching for information on the current war in Iraq and have become very leery of what the USA is putting out. Recently they shut down several military sites that were critical of either the tactics or the lack of equipment. Most of the posters were either active duty or retired military comparing notes to find out what is going on. I don't trust what the US military claims, because they have consistently been pollyannish on their successes and in denial about their failures. In the same manner, I consider news coming from FOX,CNN and their rivals to be completely untrustworthy, with a good example of the reason for that the nonsense of getting reports from sources which are actively trying to kill our guys. The only thing that one can do is to read everything and try to read between the lines. The difference in listening to what the guys coming back are saying and what is coming from the official US military sources should set off claxtons of alarms that something is seriously wrong with what the military is attempting to pass off as news.
Posted by: persimmon at July 06, 2007 12:09 AM (nUWIw)
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June 29, 2007
Car Bomb Discovered in London
Luckily, alert paramedics called to a nightclub to attend a sick patron alerted police to a smoking car, who were able to diffuse it on scene.
The Guardian has the details:
A bomb made from gas cylinders, petrol and nails was found in an abandoned car in central London today, sparking a major terrorism alert.
Peter Clarke, the Scotland Yard head of counter-terrorism, said the device, discovered in Haymarket - one of the capital's main nightlife districts - could have killed or injured many people.
"Even at this stage, it is obvious that, if the device had detonated, there could have been serious injury or loss of life," he said. "It was busy, and many people were leaving nightclubs."
Mr Clarke added that police had gathered CCTV evidence, but said it was too early to speculate about who could have been responsible.
[snip]
Mr Clarke said experts called to the scene found "significant quantities of petrol, together with a number of gas cylinders". "I cannot tell you how much petrol was in the car as we have not had a chance to measure, it but there were several large containers," he added.
Earlier, witnesses said they saw the light metallic green saloon car being driven erratically. It then crashed into bins before the driver ran away.
Police are searching landmark sites across London for further explosive devices, and are unsure whether the bomb was a lone device or one of several deployed across the capital. No warnings were received.
The attempted bombing in one of London's busiest districts is the first major challenge for Gordon Brown, who just succeeded Tony Blair as Britain's Prime Minister.
At this time, police have not associated the bomb with any specific group.
Closed-circuit security cameras posted in the area may have captured images of the bomber. Unverified witness accounts state that the vehicle had been driven erratically before crashing into trash bins, at which point the driver abandoned the vehicle on foot.
Because the vehicle crashed, I'm not certain that we can assume that the location the vehicle was found was the original target. If the eyewitnesses are correct--and we know that sometimes, eyewitness accounts can be contradictory--it sounds as if the bomb may have begun smoldering, causing the driver to panic, crash, and flee the scene.
I'm sure we'll know more as this story develops.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
07:23 AM
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Post contains 401 words, total size 3 kb.
1
Another explanation for the crash may be gasoline fumes. If there were large cans of gas in the car, the fumes could have intoxicated the driver easily.
Posted by: Chuck Simmins at June 29, 2007 08:48 AM (C+6wH)
2
Amateur.
Gasoline and propane in high concentrations won't explode, rather snuff themselves out. They both have a rather narrow range where they're actually explosive.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 29, 2007 08:50 AM (fdMig)
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Thank goodness they are still as dumb as posts.
Posted by: Rafar at June 29, 2007 09:26 AM (kkgmI)
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"but said it was too early to speculate about who could have been responsible."
Anyone mind if I speculate about those responsible? It starts with an "M" and I don't mean morons. Well, they are morons but that's not the word I had in mind.
Posted by: Actual at June 29, 2007 09:36 AM (d7w+S)
5
Mind if I join you in similar speculation?
I can't think of anyone else with a Jones for blowing up nightclubs in London.
Well, maybe the Real IRA (or whatever the remaining losers are called) might have given it a go, but they wouldn't have been quite so stupid.
Posted by: Rafar at June 29, 2007 09:39 AM (kkgmI)
6
10:30EST and MSNBC.com has already removed as the top story and replaced it with "3 Months, 329 Killed." Earlier the headline was about the "alleged" car bomb.
Tonight on Hardball Matthew's will discuss the lack of a real threat from the attempted car bombing, if at all, and Olbermann will question the timing.
One of these days, these so called "morons" and "amateurs" are going to get lucky again, and the same people downplaying things now will be jumping up and down about why we didn't connect the dots.
Lord help us.
Posted by: mindnumbrobot at June 29, 2007 09:46 AM (d5LvD)
7
On the other hand we did have that nail-bomber a while back who was going after gays, jews and the usual bugbears. He turned out to be a common or garden racist nutcase so maybe an open mind would be appropriate.
Still, I certainly wouldn't put any money against.
Posted by: Rafar at June 29, 2007 09:59 AM (kkgmI)
8
"One of these days, these so called "morons" and "amateurs" are going to get lucky again."
Yes, they are. But I still wonder why refusing to be terrorised is considered to be a poor response to attempted terrorism.
Posted by: Rafar at June 29, 2007 10:01 AM (kkgmI)
9
The Brits are fighting them in Iraq so that they don't have to fight them in London! Oh, wait a minute...
I miss the old flypaper theory. It was such a useful right-wing talking point until terrorists started proving it wrong.
Posted by: Random Guy at June 29, 2007 10:14 AM (K1Emm)
10
Not terrorized, Rafar, diligence and awareness would be nice. Instead I see glibness and an attempt to quickly dismiss, at least here in the States.
Posted by: mindnumbrobot at June 29, 2007 10:20 AM (d5LvD)
11
One of these days, these so called "morons" and "amateurs" are going to get lucky again
We've killed quite a large percentage of the brain trust.
Why do you think they've turned to Iran for state level technical support?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 29, 2007 10:51 AM (fdMig)
12
Meanwhile, blogs on the left, incliding that jackass Larry Johnson, are already minimizing and downplaying the potential threat. Terrorism, what terrorism?
Posted by: daleyrocks at June 29, 2007 11:18 AM (0pZel)
13
We've killed quite a large percentage of the brain trust.
Actually, we're creating more and better bombmakers every day in Iraq. It's just a matter of time before they make it overseas.
Posted by: Random Guy at June 29, 2007 11:28 AM (K1Emm)
14
Random Guy:
I thought an era of peace, love and understanding would erupt when Bush's poodle stepped down. Silly Jihadis sure have a strange way of saying "I love you."
Posted by: wjo at June 29, 2007 01:43 PM (r6omM)
15
Actually, we're creating more and better bombmakers every day in Iraq.
Naturally you can provide a source for this assertion.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 29, 2007 03:18 PM (fdMig)
16
I thought an era of peace, love and understanding would erupt when Bush's poodle stepped down. Silly Jihadis sure have a strange way of saying "I love you."
Why? They hate the Brits for their foreign policy, which hasn't changed with the leadership (yet).
Posted by: Random Guy at June 29, 2007 03:45 PM (K1Emm)
17
Naturally you can provide a source for this assertion.
Sure, just like you can provide data for this statement: "We've killed quite a large percentage of the brain trust."
Posted by: Random Guy at June 29, 2007 03:47 PM (K1Emm)
18
Within a couple of days I am sure the MSM will take this tack, ie...nothing to see...move along...nothing happened.
It is inconvenient for many on the left when things such as this occur.
Getting out of Iraq will not solve this problem. Running only will embolden them who hate everything we and the West stands for.
Posted by: Predator Intelligence at June 29, 2007 05:15 PM (OWfHO)
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Sure, just like you can provide data for this statement
No problem.
Your turn.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 29, 2007 05:26 PM (fdMig)
20
Purple Avenger:::
YES. George W Bush will leave office a HERO
nothing the liebrals can do now we are verging on VICTORY
Posted by: Karl at June 29, 2007 07:19 PM (xOhyo)
21
"Rafar":::
I still wonder why refusing to be terrorised is considered to be a poor response to attempted terrorism
FOOLHARDY to take risks today
we NEED security
the govt NEEDS the means to distroy the cells in are midst
if your LAW-ABIDING and not a sex deviant then whats the problem with oversite???
Posted by: Karl at June 29, 2007 07:24 PM (xOhyo)
22
if your LAW-ABIDING and not a sex deviant then whats the problem with oversite???
From such simple questions are mighty tyrannies made.
Because the founding document of our country places limits on the power of the government, Karl.
We fought a cold war for seven decades against the Soviets, and one of the things that made us better than them is the idea that we are free from unnecessary and unlawful government intrusion.
If we're not better than the Soviets in that respect, then come right out and say so. Only then can you start to make the argument that, if we don't have anything to worry about, we should let the government do whatever it wants to do.
If, on the other hand, we are better, then, dammit, we're better, and we're not going to go down that road.
If you want to change the Constitution, go ahead; it has been done nearly thirty times in the centuries since it was drawn up. Until then, government needs to follow the rules.
Also: this London car bomb thing raises the same question raised by Madrid, Fort Dix, JFK, and the earlier London bombing: if the whole idea is that we fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here, someone in charge needs to realize that this strategy isn't working.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at June 29, 2007 09:34 PM (CrgLQ)
23
Random Guy:
Why? They hate the Brits for their foreign policy, which hasn't changed with the leadership (yet).
What part of Clinton's foreign policy incited their tender feelings on 9/11? Remember that is when America was L-O-V-E-D by all.
A withdrawal from the entire Islamic world by the countries of the West will not be sufficient for the beheader set. The Jihadi message has beenand is: Submit to us and our version of Islam or die.
Posted by: wjo at June 30, 2007 08:47 AM (mx9RX)
24
What part of Clinton's foreign policy incited their tender feelings on 9/11? Remember that is when America was L-O-V-E-D by all.
Wow, you really have no clue about foreign policy, do you. Who says that America was loved by all before 9/11? Not me, and no liberals that I know.
Posted by: Random Guy at June 30, 2007 12:37 PM (K1Emm)
25
What part of Clinton's foreign policy incited their tender feelings on 9/11?
why did clinton let osama walk??? I'll tell you,,,
he was not just SOFT on terror
he SUPPORTED terror in order to make govt LARGER and more INTRUSIVE!!!
Posted by: Karl at June 30, 2007 01:21 PM (Kq+av)
26
Oh. My. God.
I can't believe that you're blaming the government intrusions of the past six years on Clinton. Oh, wait. Yes, I can, because you don't seems to have much grasp of reality, Karl.
Clinton has been out of office since 2001. Will you try to wrap your mind around that fact?
Also: back off on the punctuation marks. One question mark or one exclamation point gets the job done as handily as thirty-seven.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at June 30, 2007 02:00 PM (DNiew)
27
RG:
From the tenor of your posts I've discerned that you believe that it is American reaction to terrorism post-9/11 that creates the necessary 'breeding ground" for the mad Jihadi. It has been a meme of the Left that they (provoked freedom fighters) only hate us because we have Chimpy McHalibuton as president. In this line of thinking, Clinton and his administration were a font of wisdom, moderation and caused nothing but admiration and goodwill to flow from the Middle East. Once the gawdawful Decider is gone, we can go back to being loved.
Correct me if I am mistaken. Please illuminate me with your vastly superior knowledge of foreign policy.
Posted by: wjo at June 30, 2007 04:16 PM (4qC5R)
28
wjo:
You're arguing with RandomGuy as if he's saying something opposed to what you're saying. Your point seems to be that anti-American sentiment existed in the Islamic world before Bush 43 became president.
Random guy is saying the same thing:
Who says that America was loved by all before 9/11? Not me, and no liberals that I know.
You seem to want him to make some specific stereotypical Progressive argument that you have in your head, but, when he doesn't, you keep on arguing as if he had.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at June 30, 2007 05:53 PM (DNiew)
29
Also: this London car bomb thing raises the same question raised by Madrid, Fort Dix, JFK, and the earlier London bombing: if the whole idea is that we fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here, someone in charge needs to realize that this strategy isn't working.
Doc
Another perfectly reasonable explanation is that these attempts leaked through our efforts to destroy Islamic fanaticism because we are not fighting them (islamic terrorists) hard enough or effectively enough. I have seen precious little evidence that argues that a more conciliatory approach to these killers will end their war on the West and more than sufficient evidence that argues for total war against them would have a more beneficial effect on the world in general and the USA in particular.
Posted by: iconoclast at June 30, 2007 06:48 PM (mj91K)
30
My argument, iconoclast, has never been that we need to be more conciliatory. Rather, I see the United States as being much like a guy who's trying to protect his family from an angry mob by going out into the yard and taking them on out there. All someone has to do is walk around him and step through the front door, and the ball game's over.
(For those keeping score at home, in my parable, the front yard is Iraq and the front door represents our seaports and airports.)
It looks like the terrorists have decided to step through Great Britain's front door. What good is standing out in the front yard doing now?
Posted by: Doc Washboard at June 30, 2007 07:08 PM (FN/ul)
31
Umm...I'm still waiting Random Guy. All I hear is the sound of crickets chirping.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 30, 2007 07:10 PM (fdMig)
32
Umm...I'm still waiting Random Guy. All I hear is the sound of crickets chirping.
Apologies, PA, I have a decent article to support my argument, but when I copy in the link CY's spam filter barfs on anything with "com" in it and won't let me post. My knowledge of HTML tags is rudimentary (yeah, I can pull off italics, but that's about it). Any help here?
Posted by: Random Guy at June 30, 2007 08:06 PM (K1Emm)
33
Doc:
Thanks for carrying water for RG. I'm willing to give my interlocuteurs the benefit of the doubt and not think them evil. Its just that so many Lefties emote and do not reason.
Posted by: wjo at June 30, 2007 08:14 PM (4qC5R)
34
It has been a meme of the Left that they (provoked freedom fighters) only hate us because we have Chimpy McHalibuton as president.
This is not my argument. We were disliked well before GWB, and before Clinton, GHWB, Reagan, Carter, etc.
I'm not for a more conciliatory strategy, but for a more effective one than occupying Iraq and attempting to build a wellspring of democracy in that godforsaken place.
Just to prove that there's thinking here and not the blind kneejerk response your own ideological filter seems to expect, I would say that I *could* be convinced that occupation might be sensible if we backed it up with the proper resources -- a draft and 3/4 million troops to get the job done. I'll leave it up to you if the price is worth it.
If we're not willing to do that, then I don't see the sense in staying. It doesn't mean that we don't fight terrorism, it just means that we don't try to solve it through occupation of an islamic country.
Posted by: Random Guy at June 30, 2007 08:30 PM (K1Emm)
35
CY's spam filter barfs on anything with "com" in it and won't let me post.
Seems to work fine for IBM's web site.
IBM.COM
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 30, 2007 10:08 PM (fdMig)
36
Okay, I'll try again:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070619/ts_afp/iraqunrestarab
Posted by: Random Guy at June 30, 2007 10:19 PM (K1Emm)
37
This is the same AFP that faked the story that ignited the Intifada, right?
I particularly liked this quote:Iraq has overtaken Afghanistan as an ideal training ground for Jihadists to export their battle across and beyond the Middle East, experts say.They seem to be implying that Iraq is indeed the "right war" to be fighting if we want to fight terrorism.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 30, 2007 10:37 PM (fdMig)
38
They seem to be implying that Iraq is indeed the "right war" to be fighting if we want to fight terrorism.
We need to fight terrorism. You and I both agree on that. Does our presence in Iraq create terrorists or reduce their numbers? I don't read that article as saying that we're fighting the "right war" in Iraq. It says to me that our presence there just creates more terrorists. Like an infection, you can treat the symptoms or treat the cause. I want to treat the cause.
Posted by: Random Guy at June 30, 2007 11:44 PM (K1Emm)
39
"Doc Washboard":::
some dont like my writing stile,,, or could it be truth HURTS
clinton had no convictions and morales. terrorism? who cares unless its usefull to ME ME ME
George W Bush shoots straight,,, moral compass,,, convictions,,, values,,, sees mens SOUL
he looked into the bowls of terrorism and said NO MORE,,,
what does he get for taking a STAND? 27% approval ratings!!! fairy pants like YOU and the MSM distort the truth to misleed the POPULACE
Posted by: Karl at July 01, 2007 01:49 AM (Kq+av)
40
It says to me that our presence there just creates more terrorists.
And our presence in say...a country with fiercely independent populace...such as Afghanistan won't, right?
What part of this paragraph don't you understandThe presence of Saudi, Jordanian and Yemeni volunteers in the besieged Palestinian refugee camp of Nahr al-Bared in north Lebanon, as well as arrests in Jordan and Saudi Arabia of Jihadists coming from Iraq illustrate this.
They're saying we've got an apparently very effective "honey pot" drawing them in from everywhere. I find that an attractive situation.
The article DOES NOT say one way or another about the dynamics of internal resistance. If you think it does, please quote the exact passage. Read the actual words written, not what you'd like the written words to say.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at July 01, 2007 08:41 AM (inbUd)
41
Karl:
You're saying nothing of note here. It's a litany of talking points dredged up from Hannity, Rush, and various half-witted blog posts by other people. I'm wondering, for example, what you mean by this:
sees mens SOUL
Posted by: Doc Washboard at July 01, 2007 08:47 AM (/Vf8/)
42
Is
this what you're talking about, Karl?
At one point Bush looked at his Secretary of State and said (with a suitable Texas twang) "Powell, I looked into Putin's eyes and I saw his
soul" to which Powell replied: "Mr. President, I looked into President Putin's eyes and I saw the KGB".
Posted by: Doc Washboard at July 01, 2007 09:02 AM (/Vf8/)
43
"Not terrorized, Rafar, diligence and awareness would be nice. Instead I see glibness and an attempt to quickly dismiss, at least here in the States."
Well, that may be what it looks like in the States, but it is an inaccurate impression.
Posted by: Rafar at July 01, 2007 10:07 AM (P0E2s)
44
"From the tenor of your posts I've discerned that you believe that it is American reaction to terrorism post-9/11 that creates the necessary 'breeding ground" for the mad Jihadi. It has been a meme of the Left that they (provoked freedom fighters) only hate us because we have Chimpy McHalibuton as president. In this line of thinking, Clinton and his administration were a font of wisdom, moderation and caused nothing but admiration and goodwill to flow from the Middle East. Once the gawdawful Decider is gone, we can go back to being loved.
Correct me if I am mistaken."
OK, you're mistaken. Jihadis hate us for things like having large numbers of troops in their holy places (mostly removed now), forcing a viscious sanctions regeime on Iraq, and generally propping up dictators in their countries and supressing Islamic movements there. This has been going on long before Bush, long before Clinton in fact.
The difference is that Bush turned up the heat.
Posted by: Rafar at July 01, 2007 10:12 AM (P0E2s)
45
My argument, iconoclast, has never been that we need to be more conciliatory. Rather, I see the United States as being much like a guy who's trying to protect his family from an angry mob by going out into the yard and taking them on out there. All someone has to do is walk around him and step through the front door, and the ball game's over.<\i>
Doc
At the risk of arguing by analogy--a perilous task at best--I would suggest that your analogy reflects the defensive posture that you appear to desire. Our (USA) posture is, instead of waiting for the (organized) mob at our house, is to project force to the mob's home ground and force them to fight there instead of in our front yard.
But PLEASE let's not argue about the analogy. It is particularly pointless and irritating. Regarding how the WoT strategy has come out, we simply have to agree to disagree on this. I firmly believe that history has proven the value of protecting our country on foriegn soil--not USA soil. And, despite that fact, there is no assurance that this strategy is perfect--only that it is superior to a defensive and semi-isolationist strategy or a conciliatory strategy once war has begun. There is little that the principled anti-war folks have said that proves to to me this strategy is the wrong one at this time.
That the tactics have been F#$#-up is beyond refute. But again, if you study war, fubar'd tactics have been more the norm than the exception.
Posted by: iconoclast at July 01, 2007 12:04 PM (mj91K)
46
Read the actual words written, not what you'd like the written words to say.
Take your own advice, PA. Let's re-examine the paragraph you quoted, together with the paragraph that immediately preceded it:
The new generation of Islamist militants in Iraq are more battle-hardened than their veteran anti-Soviet counterparts from Afghanistan, and the export of their Muslim "holy war" to calmer Arab countries has become a phenomenon.
The presence of Saudi, Jordanian and Yemeni volunteers in the besieged Palestinian refugee camp of Nahr al-Bared in north Lebanon, as well as arrests in Jordan and Saudi Arabia of Jihadists coming from Iraq illustrate this.
Did you read the word "export" there? I did. That's the opposite of the "honey pot" you seem to wish Iraq to be.
Hell, even the paragraph you quoted says "arrests in Jordan and Saudi Arabia of Jihadists coming from Iraq". Read the words in front of your face.
Posted by: Random Guy at July 01, 2007 12:19 PM (K1Emm)
47
That's the opposite of the "honey pot" you seem to wish Iraq to be.
If they're being "exported", then obviously they're there and available to be killed.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at July 01, 2007 12:30 PM (inbUd)
48
Iconoclast,
You write that you "firmly believe that history has proven the value of protecting our country on foriegn soil--not USA soil."
As has been pointed out again and again, this is not like other wars in U.S. history. There is not one enemy. We can't spot the movements of huge masses of troops or the gathering of enemy fleets.
The enemy doesn't even come from one country. First Afghanistan. Then Iraq. Now Iran. There are doubtless thousands of other jihadis from other nations (not all of which are even in the Middle East) who are waiting to take a crack at us. So which foreign soil are we going to fight on, and what makes you think that the jihadis will be so obliging as to always meet us there?
Posted by: Doc Washboard at July 01, 2007 12:37 PM (/Vf8/)
49
If they're being "exported", then obviously they're there and available to be killed.
The question isn't whether there are jihadists in Iraq. No one is disputing that. The question is whether Iraq is "honey pot" that attracts terrorists to a place where we can kill them, or a breeding ground that creates more jihadists who will go on to attack American interests in other parts of the world.
Posted by: Random Guy at July 01, 2007 12:55 PM (K1Emm)
50
As has been pointed out again and again, this is not like other wars in U.S. history. There is not one enemy. We can't spot the movements of huge masses of troops or the gathering of enemy fleets.<\i>
Doc
You are certainly right about this. Otoh, military history teaches that many, if not most, wars are not fought like earlier wars. They are always asymetric in one way or another. The reason our ideologial enemies choose to fight in this manner (distributed, non-state actors, guerrilla in nature, eschewing old-fashioned "rules of war" in favor of using any and all available force to impose their will, etc.) is just for the reason you state--our fighting strategies and doctrines (were? are?) misaligned to the battle at hand.
I don't believe that aligning our strategies to successfully address this challenge is an impossible task. There is no perfect offense and the jihadi approach to war has many weaknesses that we are exploiting, though whether that is enough for us to win certainly can be debated. If we wish to win--defined as effective elimination of the jihadi threat throughout the world--then we have to find that winning combination of strategy and tactics and actually use it. Otherwise the West will find that the jihadis have successfully imposed their will on us, to our detriment.
Posted by: iconoclast at July 01, 2007 04:18 PM (mj91K)
51
So which foreign soil are we going to fight on, and what makes you think that the jihadis will be so obliging as to always meet us there?<\i>
Wherever they are, we should take the fight to them. Not allow them any safe haven, if at all possible. Because from that safe haven, they will attack us...as past events have proven true. We still may have to fight on US soil, but by taking the fight to them whenever possible we minimize the likelihood of that happening.
Posted by: iconoclast at July 01, 2007 04:24 PM (mj91K)
52
"Wherever they are, we should take the fight to them. Not allow them any safe haven, if at all possible. Because from that safe haven, they will attack us...as past events have proven true. We still may have to fight on US soil, but by taking the fight to them whenever possible we minimize the likelihood of that happening."
The problem with this reasoning is that the result of our interventions since 2001 has been, without exception, the creation of failed states.
Afghanistan : Already a failed state in most ways, still a failed state after intervention, but a more failed one than before.
Somalia : Was working its way out of being a failed state (albeit towards an Islamic one) now a full on failed state again.
Iraq : Stable and secular-ish, but now a failed state.
Failed states are precicely the safe havens these groups want, along with a nice juicy load of outrage at the occupiers (fair or not occupiers are much more carefully scrutinised and tend to lose progeganda wars).
So, our response is counterproductive. We go into areas that are bad and make them 10 times worse.
Posted by: Rafar at July 02, 2007 03:50 AM (kkgmI)
53
The problem with this reasoning is that the result of our interventions since 2001 has been, without exception, the creation of failed states<\i>
There are several problems with your reasoning. First, even if you were correct in assuming that the ultimate result of taking war to our enemy was causing a failed state--an erroneous conclusion but one let's cede for the sake of argument--that is no reason to turn our own soil into a battleground. A present danger supercedes the uncertain potential of a future danger--in plain terms, we have to be around in the future in order to worry about it. Wise policy will attempt to ameliorate future danger AFTER the present danger is resolved (think Marshall Plan, for example). But concerns about the infinite universe of future possibilities is no reason for current paralysis.
But I think you are laboring under the misconception of a failed state. Afghanistan, Iraq, and Iran are definitely not failed states. Iran is an enemy state. Afghanistan and Iraq are battleground states--but overall functioning despite being the front lines against jihadi fanaticism. Gaza might be a much better example of a failed state; West Bank and Lebanon too.
So, our response is counterproductive. We go into areas that are bad and make them 10 times worse.<\i>
You cannot possibly believe this. Do you really think that the current Iraq is 10X worse than it was under Saddam and his merry gang of torturers and genocidal maniacs? Afghanistan is 10X worse than under the misogynistic and sadistic Taliban? If you truly believe this, then your facts are so unreal that reasoned discussion with you is impossible--which would be a shame.
Posted by: iconoclast at July 02, 2007 12:14 PM (TzLpv)
54
iconoclast, what I've read is that poppy production is greater than ever in Afghanistan, and that the Taliban--the group we ostensibly evicted in 2001--is regaining strength. Kharzai is losing control of his own territory. What makes any of this a success?
Posted by: Doc Washboard at July 02, 2007 12:52 PM (dNLJL)
55
iconoclast, what I've read is that poppy production is greater than ever in Afghanistan, and that the Taliban--the group we ostensibly evicted in 2001--is regaining strength. Kharzai is losing control of his own territory. What makes any of this a success?<\i>
Doc
I don't really care about the poppy production there. As long as there are people who have to self-medicate/use recreational drugs, there will be suppliers. Unfortunate, but not a measure I care that much about regarding our war on jihadi terror.
wrt Afghanistan, my reading is that while there is still conflict the Taliban is being defeated--the recent pre-emptive spring offensive by coalition troops has been successful as far as I can tell.
Pure speculation, but I wonder if the poppy production increase is a direct result of continued Taliban defeats. Greater tranquility would enable greater production of poppy. And if the Kharzai government is winking at poppy production while it fights the Taliban...ok with me.
Posted by: iconoclast at July 02, 2007 01:47 PM (TzLpv)
56
"Afghanistan, Iraq, and Iran are definitely not failed states."
I never said Iran was a failed state. Afghanistan is a failed state in that the government only controls the capital city. Most of the region knows no state.
To suggest that Iraq is not a failed state leads me to wonder what you think a failed state is. The people who define the words and rate the countries in their index rather disagree with you, but who are hey to disagree.
" Do you really think that the current Iraq is 10X worse than it was under Saddam and his merry gang of torturers and genocidal maniacs? Afghanistan is 10X worse than under the misogynistic and sadistic Taliban? "
Like I said, Afghanistan seems to exist in a perpetual failed-state mode, similarly to Somalia. In fact, Afghans seem to have a rather different conception of what makes a state to us.
And in terms of not providing secure bases for Jihadists, Iraq is 10 times worse than it was under Saddam, yes. If you remember, that is what we were talking about;
"Wherever they are, we should take the fight to them. Not allow them any safe haven, if at all possible. Because from that safe haven, they will attack us...as past events have proven true. "
They had no safe haven in Iraq before we got there, now they live in the anarchic bosom of a failed state.
Posted by: Rafar at July 02, 2007 03:22 PM (P0E2s)
57
The question is whether Iraq is "honey pot" that attracts terrorists to a place where we can kill them, or a breeding ground that creates more jihadists who will go on to attack American interests in other parts of the world.
Sure, but so far I've seen nothing cited to support the breeding ground view other than repeated assertion.
Indeed, things like the awakening suggest that if there were a breeding ground effect in the past, it is now being tamped down hard by those who wield influence.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at July 02, 2007 04:38 PM (CmXp+)
58
They had no safe haven in Iraq before we got there, now they live in the anarchic bosom of a failed state.<\i>
Pretty poisonous bosom, Iraq. And it is not a sanctuary for rest&training by any stretch of a reasonable imagination.
But since you appear convinced--absent of any sort of facts--that the current situation in Iraq and outside of Iraq is 10X worse than with Saddam Hussein in charge, we have little to dicuss going forward. Pity.
Posted by: iconoclast at July 02, 2007 06:26 PM (/YFFH)
59
"Indeed, things like the awakening suggest that if there were a breeding ground effect in the past, it is now being tamped down hard by those who wield influence."
As mentioned, the only reason the Sunni tribes put up with Al-Q was because they wanted their help in fighting the US. They were always going to slaughter them when their usefulness ran out.
Posted by: Rafar at July 03, 2007 03:39 AM (kkgmI)
60
"Pretty poisonous bosom, Iraq. And it is not a sanctuary for rest&training by any stretch of a reasonable imagination."
Yes, it certainly is a vile place to operate, but within a well ordered state it is almost impossible to operate. In Iraq they gain control of whole areas, don't they? Sure they get moved on, but they just set up camp somewhere else.
http://www.d-n-i.net/lind/lind_9_28_06.htm
"But since you appear convinced--absent of any sort of facts--that the current situation in Iraq and outside of Iraq is 10X worse than with Saddam Hussein in charge, we have little to dicuss going forward."
I am confused. I never said anything of the sort, as I explicitely stated twice before. I suggest that, in terms of terrorists, Jihadis and Al-Q, Iraq is significantly worse than before the invasion. Whether the political situation, refugee, civilian death rate, women's rights, freedom of speech, religion or conscience are all better or worse is irrelevant to the point (though I would suggest that only freedom of conscience and freedom fof speech have improved).
My point was restricted to terrorist operations, specifically Al-Q in Iraq. Since there were basically no Al-Q operations in Iraq before the invasion, and now they not only bomb a couple of times a day, they even control territory. If we admit to, say, one Al-Q strike in Iraq per day (lowballing it a ways) then for it to be 10 times worse, we would have expected, in 2002, to see 3 attacks a month.
I doubt that we would see 3 Al-Q attacks a month globally before 2001.
Of course, if you disagee, you are welcome to compile the numbers from your most favoured sources.
"Pity."
Only if you respond to stuff that I didn't actually write.
Posted by: Rafar at July 03, 2007 03:53 AM (kkgmI)
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June 28, 2007
Bring Me the Head Of Kim Gamel
Many of us awoke this morning to a disturbing Associated Press account of extreme barbarity coming
out of Iraq:
Twenty beheaded bodies were discovered Thursday on the banks of the Tigris River southeast of Baghdad and a car bomb killed another 20 people in one of the capital's busy outdoor bus stations, police said.
The beheaded remains were found in the Sunni Muslim village of Um al-Abeed, near the city of Salman Pak, which lies 14 miles southeast of Baghdad.
The bodies all men aged 20 to 40 had their hands and legs bound, and some of the heads were found next to the bodies, two officers said on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to release the information.
Another version of the Associated Press story provided a bit more detail about the two anonymous Iraqi police officers who were the sources for the story.
Shockingly, they weren't there at all:
One of the police officers is based in Baghdad and the other in Kut, 100 miles southeast of the capital. The Baghdad officer said he learned of the discovery because Iraq's Interior Ministry, where he works, sent troops to the village to investigate. The Kut officer said he first heard the report through residents of the Salman Pak area.
I'm not Associated Press reporter Sinan Salheddin, nor am I Kim Gamel, AP's Baghdad news editor, but if I was investigating a story about a 20-corpse mass murder in—let's say, Manhattan—then I'd try to find a local police officer at the scene to interview about the case.
I wouldn't rely on a desk sergeant in Staten Island who merely heard reports of other officers being dispatched to check to see if there was such a crime, nor would I rely on a beat cop in Albany Fishkill who is only reporting rumors of what he heard from friends of relatives in Queens.
But the Associated Press didn't rely on the local police. Instead, they blatantly presented hearsay as the truth, and as a result, ran a story about a brutal massacre that currently appears to have never taken place.
Shortly after reading the AP's dubious "cousin in Kut" sourcing, I contacted several sources of my own, and which led to the following being released to me via email this evening from Multi-National Forces-Iraq:
We've been working on this query here at the Multi-National Forces Iraq Press Desk throughout the day and have been unable to confirm any of these reports of the 20 bodies at Salman Pak. After communicating with the Iraqi police and searching the area with some of our helicopters, we've been unable to find any evidence that proves the initial "report".
You were also very observant and correct to notice that these initial statements were from areas nowhere near the claimed location of the discovery which also leads us to question the validity of this report.
Until we turn up any clear evidence, we've concluded that this is an unsubstantiated claim but we'll let you know if we hear anything otherwise in the next 24 hours.
The email was signed by LCDR K.C. Marshall, U.S. Navy.
For the second time in less than year, the Associated Press seems to have run a story of a horrific massacre involving 20 or more people, using police officers not assigned to the area as their primary sources. For the second time in less than a year, it appears that there is no physical evidence that so much as a single person has died.
This time, if 20 heads cannot be recovered near Salman Pak, perhaps an equal number should roll at the Associated Press.
6/29 Update: In addition to MNF-I in researching the AP claim, I contacted Ron Holbrook, assigned to the Iraqi Ministry of the Interior Transition Team Public Affairs Office (the MOI runs the Iraqi Police).
This morning, he states via email:
I can not confirm anything at this time.
While more ambiguous than LCDR Marshall's statement, I take this to mean that the Iraqi Police have been unable to confirm the existence of any decapitated bodies in Um-al Abeed.
It is very much starting to look like the Associated Press has falsely reported yet another non-existent massacre, using a sourcing methodology that reports unconfirmed hearsay from anonymous off-site sources as facts.
If this story is conclusively debunked, (meaning no bodies are found), the Associated Press will owe it to their readers and the news agencies they provide with information a full accounting of why they continue to fail to verify claims before presenting them as news.
Further Update: Via email, Eason Jordan, formerly of CNN, notes that both Reuters and Voices of Iraq have also made this same claim as the Associated Press.
I can't find the Reuters account (if you do, please drop it in the comments), but the VOI account seems to use the same sort of anonymous police sources as does the AP.
Further MNF-I Update: LCDR Marshall again:
Sir, we still have no further information that would substantiate the
initial "reports". I believe that there's going to be a statement in
the next day that will emphasize this; I will send it to you when it's
released.
You heard the man: an official denial may be released as early as tomorrow.
Things are not looking good for the Associated Press, who has now twice allowed shoddy reporting methodology and incredibly poor sourcing to damage the credibilty of the Associated Press and those news organizations that rely upon the AP to deliver timely, accurate information.
In related news, CY commenter Dusty Rafferty has found the Reuters article noted by Eason Jordan. You can read it here. It appears Reuters has also fallen for the same, or similar, anonymous police sources. Should we be calling for Rueters to explain how they allowed themselves to fall for the same apparently false story?
You bet.
/7/06/07 Update: Ever able to miss the overall point, an observant liberal snarks via email that the distance from Albany to New York City is 130+ miles, and so my analogy is geographically inaccurate--as if a cop in Fishkill, NY would be any more knowledgeable about an event in NYC than the cop in Albany would. Whatever. I'm sure you all understand the analogy just so much more now that it is geographically precise. Right?
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1
I suspect this news you are breaking will make for an interesting next few days. Great work, CY. You've outdone yourself again.
Posted by: Dusty at June 28, 2007 10:24 PM (GJLeQ)
2
Do you recall in my Weekly Standard article on Afghanistan (http://www.fumento.com/military/otherwar.html) where I said that one of the AP reporters I was quartered with said he thought 9/11 was a hoax? And he was no stringer; he worked directly for the agency. When you hire people like THAT you get stories like THIS.
Posted by: Michael Fumento at June 28, 2007 10:30 PM (uZVcT)
3
That the AP would be hiring truthers is a story all by itself Michael.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 28, 2007 11:27 PM (G2DEp)
4
Mehhh
AP runs another AQIZ propaganda piece in other words no change just the same old same old. Look with very few exceptions the MSM is 100% against this war and will do whatever it takes to lose it as a bonus their favorite political party gets to ride into power. Remember the old maxim "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" to the Dhimmi's and the MSM the enemy is the Republican party, Conservatives and anyone who does not march in lock step with them ie.. the American voter.
Posted by: Oldcrow at June 29, 2007 01:57 AM (q7b5Y)
5
A police officer in Baghdad, you say?
Whatever could his name be? And how could a police officer in Baghdad get around and know so much about what's going on? And why do i get this Deja Vu feeling?
Posted by: See-Dubya at June 29, 2007 03:13 AM (DbZC0)
6
To be fair to AP, at least 20 bodies routinely turn up every morning in Bagdhad showing obvious signs of torture and execution, so rather than being an out of the ordinary story that should have raised scepticism it is much more routine. For example,
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/212/story/17350.html
Yes, they should have been more careful in their investigations, though I would hold off on a final judgement for a couple of days, but it hardly as if they received news that something wildly out of the ordinary had happened.
Posted by: Rafar at June 29, 2007 03:32 AM (kkgmI)
7
I also note this piece from the LA times;
http://fairuse.100webcustomers.com/fairenough/latimesA78.html
Which contains the line (from a US officer);
"This week Odierno visited one such location — Salman Pak, a Sunni town on the Tigris River south of Baghdad. He spoke with soldiers as they pushed into Sunni-dominated neighborhoods where U.S. and Iraqi government forces had not ventured for two years. "
This week being the last week. That would imply that there really isn't a police force to talk about there, nor is there a meaningful government Presence. Until this week, there is. When Iraqi (Which mean Shiite in this case) forces entered the largely Sunni town. This is hinted at by the suggestion that the Bagdhad police source says that they knew about it because police were sent out to investigate. This surely implies that there aren't actually any police sources in Salman Pax to ask.
It is all speculation, of course, as are most things in Iraq.
Posted by: Rafar at June 29, 2007 05:08 AM (kkgmI)
8
Rafar, Salman Pak has their own police force and police stations with American advisors. They just defeated a small insurgent force that attacked the station on
May 9.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 29, 2007 06:10 AM (HcgFD)
9
Then I retract the above comment unreservedly.
Posted by: Rafar at June 29, 2007 08:13 AM (kkgmI)
10
And if weapons of mass destruction are not found in Iraq, perhaps an IED should be detonated in the Offal Office.
I hear that, in response to your post, the AP has decided to run a story indicated that milk and honey are now flowing freely in the Euphrates, and that the bodies daily found floating in it died from glucose and lactose intolerance.
Keep up the Sisyphean task of defending the indefensible!
Posted by: jamienewman at June 29, 2007 08:15 AM (vVsRL)
11
Yea, fake news is such a valuable thing, exposing it is truly "indefensible". Goebbles would be proud.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 29, 2007 08:53 AM (fdMig)
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Jaimenewman, I am not surprised by what you heard AP is planning to report. I am not surprised that AP *plans to report* rather than reports news gathered.
Finally, I would not be surprised if AP used your comment here as a verification of the event, either.
Posted by: Dusty at June 29, 2007 09:16 AM (GJLeQ)
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The more things change, the more they stay the same. Would everyone assume their previous positions the last time we had the "If things are so bad in Iraq, why do they need to use fake news? / Just because you disprove one story it doesn't discount the hundreds of other bad news stories coming out of Iraq or do you think they are all fake" argument.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at June 29, 2007 10:30 AM (oC8nQ)
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"The more things change, the more they stay the same. Would everyone assume their previous positions the last time we had the "If things are so bad in Iraq, why do they need to use fake news? / Just because you disprove one story it doesn't discount the hundreds of other bad news stories coming out of Iraq or do you think they are all fake" argument.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at June 29, 2007 10:30 AM"
It's not so much the fake stories and the under-researched stories and the distorted stories (abu Ghraib & Gitmo come to mind, as well as Haditha) but the flat out UNreporting of the positive events. Of course, that doesn't fit the template of "embarrass Bush and destroy the Republican party" nor the "if it bleeds it leads" mentality of the MSM. In truth, if they were honest about what's really going on in Iraq and domestically, there would be no liberal movement nor Democrat party...at least in its current state - further left than it's ever been.
Posted by: Jarhead68 at June 29, 2007 11:19 AM (zfYni)
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Here's one from Reuters, CY. It's from yesterday with a timestamp of 9:23AM BST:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUKL2828862620070628
The earliest AP report I could find was 5:05 AM EDT, 28 June from The Columbian:
http://www.columbian.com/news/APStories/AP06282007news159409.cfm
Not sure who had it on the wires first but Reuters looks like it may have been first. I'm pretty sure BST (British Summer Time) beats EDT though.
Skimming through reports from both, Reuters' was out of Baghdad, was very brief and read as being skeptical and I don't see that there was any elaboration.
On the other hand, AP had a very early report, too which was about as brief, but then a very large story followed with much more elaboration.
FWIW, I noticed two out of Australia that were also very brief at about 6 PM which might be about the same as 6AM EDT, without attirbution to a news organization, just Correspondents out of Baghdad. The wordig however looks more like Reuters than AP but I'll have to check more closely.
Seems like AP chased it, but why they chased it away from those who could verify and not towards those who could verify is, well, interesting.
I have some screen shots and cut and pasted stories if you have a need.
Posted by: Dusty at June 29, 2007 02:11 PM (GJLeQ)
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The answer is obvious to anyone who isn't drinking the Red State kool-aid. The bodies are cleverly hidden in those five... no, four mosques that weren't totally destroyed back in November.
Posted by: Cassandra at June 29, 2007 03:48 PM (G/Ncc)
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Soylent Green -- the spooks are just turning them all into Soylent Green.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 29, 2007 06:58 PM (fdMig)
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...let's play the democrats' favorite game, the 'suspicious timing' game. Is it any wonder that the AP was in an overly eager rush to try and publish any sort of bad news out of Baghdad in order to minimize and create doubt about a slightly later story, Gen. Joe Fil's remarks that nearly half of Baghdad is now under control?
Posted by: DJ at June 29, 2007 07:38 PM (74C9S)
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DJ, I missed that one. Where did you see that report?
Posted by: Dusty at June 29, 2007 08:07 PM (GJLeQ)
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Even some of the MSM is starting to notice.
From an opinion_editorial by John Hughes,
Wed Jun 20 - Christian Science Monitor
Meanwhile, in a separate firefight at a makeshift suicide vehicle factory, three separate suicide bombers were killed, two suicide trucks were discovered and blown up, and foreign and other fighters were killed or captured. On the defending side, one civilian and one policeman were wounded, with no US or other casualties. "The enemy was killed in his tracks; his best weapon was discovered before it could cause any harm," says the officer, "but Western media reported no enemy killed in these operations, 28 civilians killed, and 50 civilians wounded. We are getting demolished," the Marine officer says, "by nefarious enemy media outlets Â… 'reporters' or 'sources' for Arab and other news agencies either on insurgent payrolls or who have known sympathies with insurgent operations, and by collective Western media that are often being manipulated by enemy elements. What incredible economy of effort the enemy is afforded when US media is their megaphone. Why spend precious resources on developing your own propaganda machine when you can make your opponent's own news outlets scream your message louder than you could ever have hoped to do independently?"
Posted by: teqjack at June 29, 2007 08:11 PM (CEphM)
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I'm trying to figure out how the AP could damage their credibility when they have none left to begin with.
Posted by: antimedia at June 29, 2007 09:22 PM (p2vM+)
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The U.S. Military is officially calling the decapitation story
a hoax.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 30, 2007 10:05 AM (HcgFD)
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Bravo to Confederate Yankee-- a reliable and honest news source!
Posted by: Lloyd at June 30, 2007 05:43 PM (N6Glw)
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Heh,
You make me laugh. You used "AP" and "Credibility" in the same sentence....
BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
Sorry, it's just so hard to actually read anything anymore that eminates from either AP, Reuters, or the NYT. Not that I am jaded, mind you, but that, well, after listening to the various MSM and leftist groups whine about this war being "Bush's Vietnam" I would offer that, at the least, they certainly have the press reporting part of Vietnam down cold.
respects,
Posted by: AW1 Tim at June 30, 2007 07:37 PM (xsmhm)
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You were asking for a conformation from the same people that could not confirm that a "civil war" was taking place in Iraq
Posted by: John Ryan at June 30, 2007 09:49 PM (TcoRJ)
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The German Newspaper "WELT" repeated this hoax on June,30 2007. I sent them an e-mail with a link to this post. I'm curios if they will respond. Keep on blogging, the MSN has become absolutly useless for anyone interested in facts, not fiction and bias.
Posted by: Patrick at July 01, 2007 06:04 AM (kCQkw)
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This is just silly. I realize that the AP is a big bogie man for you guys, but you'll notice the AP reported the story as they heard it. The said the police were the source and they described in detail who the police officers were. I suspect that information is a bit harder to come by in a war zone than in Manhattan, and as someone else pointed out, it's not as if it's the first time a bunch of bodies have been found.
It may be they could have investigated more, and if so then fine, criticize them for that. But for you folks it's always got to be part of a nefarious agenda. The AP routinely reports spin from the administration uncritically, and agrees to withold the identity of the administration official they are talking to, for no other reason than that's what their source wants. Do you criticize them every time that happens?
Posted by: ChrisO at July 02, 2007 04:01 PM (AufA8)
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Something or Nothing Open Thread
Yeah, I know that the amnesty Bill has gone down in flames and that other things of importance are happening in the world, but I'm attempting to run something down that may either be nothing, or something, and don't have time to really get into too much else at the moment.
As I'm going to be a slacker, enjoy yourself: I this is going to be the first open thread here, ever (at least as far as I recall).
Touch gloves, come out swinging, and please keep all punches above the belt.
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Anybody wanna guess what I've go in my pocket?
Posted by: phin at June 28, 2007 12:42 PM (CQcil)
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The heck with what's in your pocket, put up your dukes! Mike Tyson rules and to paraphrase Chuck Wepner 'My three best punches are the choke hold, the rabbit punch and the head butt.'
Posted by: Dusty at June 28, 2007 01:33 PM (GJLeQ)
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Slate has an interesting article by Reagan deputy AG Bruce Fein on why Cheney should be impeached. I can't link to the article because the spam filter apparently doesn't like the mention of that web site.
The individual examples of malfeasance are compelling, but I can't say the same for his last sentence, in which he summarizes the charges:
Cheney is impeachable for his overweening power and his sneering contempt of the Constitution and the rule of law.
This is a pretty lame restatement of a lot of serious problems.
Cheney seems like a very, very bad man to me, based on his penchant for absurd secrecy and his repeated attempts to exempt himself and Bush from accountability.
Sadly, No! mentioned a rumor that Cheney is going to step down, be replaced by Fred!, thus making Thompson the heir-apparent. Has anyone else heard anything along these lines?
Posted by: Doc Washboard at June 28, 2007 02:01 PM (O2QIW)
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Anybody wanna guess...
A toad? I was always carrying around a toad when I was a kid...
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 28, 2007 02:08 PM (G2DEp)
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 28, 2007 02:10 PM (G2DEp)
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Doc I've heard the same thing, but don't think its any more credible than the rumor several months back that Cheney was stepping down so they could bring in Dr. Rice as a serious contender.
I doubt that Fred! would want to take it. He'd be joining part of a lame duck administration, that just tried to muscle through a bill that a overwhelming majority of their base didn't want. Instead of actually help Fred! it'd destroy his chances.
I kind of look at it this way. If the current administration was batting around a 50 - 60+ percentage approval rating, it'd be a winning proposition. But with the approval ratings at a low point and him being unable to bring about any significant change he's nothing to gain and everything to loose.
It'd be kind of like jumping on the Titanic to rearrange the seats hoping to earn the captains chair.
Posted by: phin at June 28, 2007 03:26 PM (CQcil)
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still believe those mission accomplished sign excuses?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/03/AR2007050302138.html
Posted by: mac at June 28, 2007 06:58 PM (YlQ//)
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Here's some bare-knuckle street fighting from a surprising Corner:
LINK
A key moment was last night when the Baucus amendment on REAL ID wasn't tabled. The Bargainers had been running through the clay pigeon, tabling amendments to get them out of the way so they could get to the Graham-Kyl-Martinez "apprehend and deport" amendment. Then, the plan was, that amendment wouldn't be tabled, signaling that it would pass and giving some cat-nip to on-the-fence Republicans to vote for cloture. But Baucus wasn't tabled, stopping the process before it got to Lindsey "Deportation" Graham's creation. That helped blow away a big piece of the political strategy of the Bargainers.
A few shrewd conservatives had seen the potential here and voted against tabling Baucus—even though they didn't support the amendment—because they knew it would throw a monkey wrench in the process. When Baucus wasn't tabled because of those surprise conservative votes, a desperate Reid moved to vote on it right away to try to get it out of the way. But he couldn't because he couldn't get unanimous consent from opponents of the bill.
Procedurally, he had been check-mated; politically, the cover of the Graham-Kyl-Martinez amendment wouldn't be available; and it was downhill from there.
Posted by: capitano at June 28, 2007 07:34 PM (+NO33)
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June 27, 2007
Quietly Making Noise
It is with such mundane, rarely reported stories such as these, that counterinsurgencies take hold.
Thanks for stepping up, guys:
For a second time this week, a large cache consisting of improvised explosive device-making material and mortar rounds was turned over to Coalition Forces by the "Neighborhood Watch" in Taji, Iraq.
The Taji neighborhood watch contacted Coalition Forces June 25, after the driver of a truck fled the scene when the volunteers stopped a suspicious vehicle moving through the rural village of Abd Allah al Jasim. The vehicle contained 24 mortar rounds, two rockets, spare machine gun barrels, small arms ammunition and other IED-making material.
"This grassroots movement of reconciliation by the volunteers is taking off all around us. The tribes that had once actively or passively supported al-Qaeda in Iraq now want them out," said Lt. Col. Peter Andrysiak, the deputy commander of the 1st "Ironhorse" Brigade Combat Team, 1st Cavalry Division.
The neighborhood watch is made up of a group of 500 volunteers, from a number of tribes in the area, who want reconciliation with the Coalition Forces and the Iraqi government. The volunteers are currently being vetted for possible future selection for training as Iraqi Police or some other organization within the Iraqi Security Forces.
Taji, 20 miles north of Baghdad, is perhaps most infamously known as the town where ABC News co-anchor Bob Woodruff and cameraman Doug Vogt were seriously injured in a 2006 IED explosion, and under the Hussein regime, the site of Iraq's long-range missile program. On Saturday, four U.S. soldiers based at Fort Hood died in an IED attack there.
While our soldiers are still battling Sunni insurgent IED cells in Taji, it is worth noting the seeds to a successful counterinsurgency are being sown in Taji and elsewhere, as noted yesterday in Small Wars Journal (h/t Instapundit):
On June 15th we kicked off a major series of division-sized operations in Baghdad and the surrounding provinces. As General Odierno said, we have finished the build-up phase and are now beginning the actual "surge of operations". I have often said that we need to give this time. That is still true. But this is the end of the beginning: we are now starting to put things onto a viable long-term footing.
These operations are qualitatively different from what we have done before. Our concept is to knock over several insurgent safe havens simultaneously, in order to prevent terrorists relocating their infrastructure from one to another, and to create an operational synergy between what we're doing in Baghdad and what's happening outside. Unlike on previous occasions, we don't plan to leave these areas once they're secured. These ops will run over months, and the key activity is to stand up viable local security forces in partnership with Iraqi Army and Police, as well as political and economic programs, to permanently secure them. The really decisive activity will be police work, registration of the population and counterintelligence in these areas, to comb out the insurgent sleeper cells and political cells that have "gone quiet" as we moved in, but which will try to survive through the op and emerge later. This will take operational patience, and it will be intelligence-led, and Iraqi government-led. It will probably not make the news (the really important stuff rarely does) but it will be the truly decisive action.
When we speak of "clearing" an enemy safe haven, we are not talking about destroying the enemy in it; we are talking about rescuing the population in it from enemy intimidation. If we don't get every enemy cell in the initial operation, that's OK. The point of the operations is to lift the pall of fear from population groups that have been intimidated and exploited by terrorists to date, then win them over and work with them in partnership to clean out the cells that remain – as has happened in Al Anbar Province and can happen elsewhere in Iraq as well.
The "terrain" we are clearing is human terrain, not physical terrain. It is about marginalizing al Qa'ida, Shi'a extremist militias, and the other terrorist groups from the population they prey on. This is why claims that "80% of AQ leadership have fled" donÂ’t overly disturb us: the aim is not to kill every last AQ leader, but rather to drive them off the population and keep them off, so that we can work with the community to prevent their return.
It is this kind of working within the community that makes this one small story in a large war worth noting.
The "neighborhood watch" that captured this cache is composed of 500 men from various tribes in the Taji area that once supported al Qaeda and the Sunni insurgency. As Dave Kilcullen notes above, it is the human terrain that matters, and the fact that these men are now actively working against al Qaeda and the insurgency, are attempting to join the political process and the Iraqi security forces, that is far more important than an increasing body count.
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"the fact that these men are now actively working against al Qaeda and the insurgency, are attempting to join the political process and the Iraqi security forces, that is far more important than an increasing body count."
If there was some reason to think that they wouldn't switch sides again as soon as it was in their interest, perhaps this would count as good news.
Posted by: Ted at June 27, 2007 04:03 PM (fA9o9)
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All the more reason to make sure their interests align with ours then, isn't it?
OMG you mean people actually act in SELF INTEREST? STOP THE PRESSES!
Posted by: bkw at June 27, 2007 04:11 PM (bRLba)
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Ted - The US has awful press but decent men and women on the ground fighting heroically. Al Queda has great press all over the world but on the ground are butchers of innocents, bullies, and tyrants. You can go in believing the hype but eventually actions speak louder than words and people flip. So what realistic set of circumstances is going to lead people to flip back? The only one that I can think of is that we abandon the Iraqis and leave before they are fully ready to take over the running of their own nation.
Posted by: TMLutas at June 27, 2007 04:11 PM (8jMzX)
Posted by: Tom at June 27, 2007 04:12 PM (M24Cv)
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Ted: Everyone does what is in his interest. The idea is to reform Iraqi society so that it is not in the interest of young men to work for Al Qaeda or a militia. Nobody will find it in his interest to cast his lot with dead-enders and losers, once those are clearly revealed and known to be what they are. It's up to us and the Iraqis allied with us to make that demonstration, and it appears that we are making progress in doing that.
Posted by: Byron at June 27, 2007 04:14 PM (9oU1J)
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Ted: ""perhaps this would count as good news""
Is that a variation of the 'there can only be bad news from Iraq' meme that you lefties like so much?
Posted by: Red at June 27, 2007 04:33 PM (Deb2F)
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I'm happy for optimistic news.
I know that
shocks you righties, but it's true.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 27, 2007 04:37 PM (kxecL)
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Relatively powerless people will generally side with the group they think is going to win. It's a survival mechanism.
This group has decided we are more likely to win. It is vitally important that we don't abandon them, no matter what domestic political pressures are brought to bear.
Posted by: tim maguire at June 27, 2007 05:00 PM (aCSJW)
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Lefties hate good news. I know that shocks everyone, but it's true. The worse things are the happier your average leftie is going to be.
Posted by: Bostan Haverley at June 27, 2007 05:02 PM (abKQ6)
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It IS good news, especially about the cooperation involved in securing that bomb-making cache.
But let's be brutally frank: Our legacy of abiding tactical, strategic and operational screw-ups in Iraq should make every one a skeptic. Let's drop the automatic left-wing, right-wing crap and pray or hope like hell this IS it.The September Petraeus report is lights out for us in Iraq if the man in the street cant see clear progress.
Because when GOP senators start making a lot of noise about "exit plans" and the like, and have nothing to fear from their own party, POTUS is in the bottom on the 9th.
For my part, for the first time since the "Mission Accomplished" photo-op, I'm convinced we're on to the right thing. I hope Im right.
Posted by: rod at June 27, 2007 05:13 PM (y+e7C)
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i agree with rod that we're in the bottom of the 9th as far as the public communcations battle goes. its bottom 9 and our side is down by several runs because our manager cant seem to get his shit together.
sadly, even tho there are more and more encouraging signs out of iraq every day as reported by the Yon's and Roggio's, etc of the world, what the vast majority of citizens see is only the msm view, which is "disaster-bomb-disaster-bomb" every night on tv and every day in newspapers.
we are too far behind that curve now to make any significant difference in public opinion, because Team Bush cannot or will not effectively communicate the stakes involved.
so once again, America is in grave danger of losing strategically on the homefront what could be a victory tactically on the battlefield.
thank you Bush admin commmuncations team and MSM honchos.
maybe the next preis
Posted by: mike d at June 27, 2007 05:58 PM (Ug3ki)
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If there was some reason to think that they wouldn't switch sides again...
AQ don't put in sewers and power plants when they move into an area. We do.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 27, 2007 07:12 PM (G2DEp)
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OK, al Qa'ida is making themselves an enemy of the Iraqi people, so various tribes are helping the U.S. now. The stakes are high and we can't run, but things are looking up.
But...what reasons are there for those tribes to not just slip back into a fifteen hundred year habit and stay with tribalism after the U.S. is gone? There doesn't appear to be any broad-based core of "founding fathers" like in the late 1700's in North America.
I'm getting the feeling the Iraqi tribes are helping the U.S. now and will tell the U.S. to not let the door hit us in the rear as we leave, so those tribal leaders can get back to business as usual.
Posted by: Gary K. at June 27, 2007 07:46 PM (43BUg)
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There doesn't appear to be any broad-based core of "founding fathers" like in the late 1700's in North America.
In reality that broad base never existed. Only about 10% of the American populace of the time actively supported the revolution. Most were ambivalent Tories or didn't care one way or the other.
It worked out because all you really need for a successful revolution is about 10% with the rest being ambivalent and/or disinterested.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 27, 2007 09:14 PM (G2DEp)
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Well, Gary, I guess we'll just have to make sure our troops stay in Iraq as long as they have stayed in Germany and Japan and Korea. If that's what it takes, so be it.
Posted by: Pat at June 27, 2007 09:18 PM (0suEp)
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Who says we have to get Iraqis to abandon tribal traditions? That was a key mistake of the early days of the occupation. A democracy can still leave some room for tribal autonomy to some degree, and tribes can have a voice in a republic. The one and only thing we can't leave behind in Iraq is an environment that would allow Al Qaeda to estabish a base of operations.
So this is indeed good news.
Posted by: Korla Pundit at June 27, 2007 09:25 PM (0Jnzc)
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Mike d, I hear you but....MSM has been adverserial over past year or so, and team bush has had a communication strategy that will be studied for its profound ineptness, yet this pudding is our own recipe.
if you dont like how the war's gone, 100% of the blame rests with the prime movers at 1600 penn ave. army size, troop allocation, political generals, 19th century tactics, political f-ups on ground, bremer, corruption....all on them, full stop.
Yon was calling a civil war for about a year before desperate white house aides leaked stuff on background that they were at least studying the proposal.
the msm didnt do that, for all their sins.
Posted by: rod at June 27, 2007 09:29 PM (sc+cU)
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all on them, full stop
Rod, FYI the size of the Army is dictated by congress. Most of the higher ranking general officer postings are also approved by congress.
In criticizing "political generals", you're indicting the Clinton era military, since that is when those guys were all rising up through the ranks. Are you sure this is what you intend to do?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 27, 2007 10:46 PM (G2DEp)
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That's great news--this is what "winning hearts and minds" means. Of course, the Iraqis must be convinced that a future free of anarchy and terrorism is attainable, which is why the surge is absolutely crucial and any draw-down in the near future would be disastrous.
Posted by: Nathan Tabor at June 27, 2007 11:55 PM (HQYcw)
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you're indicting the Clinton era military
YES!!! a great number of our problems today are direcly cause by CLINTON
finally we start digging out and now they want to elect HILLARY???
Posted by: Karl at June 28, 2007 01:12 AM (12ZG0)
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Nice to hear the citizens are stepping up to help achieve peace, whatever their motives (though I would like to believe it's indicative that they now see the clear choice between eventual peace and prosperity vs decades more of violence and oppresion).
Posted by: DoorHold at June 28, 2007 09:43 AM (5+3cN)
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Ah... The Good Life
Yesterday, while scanning
Memeorandum.com to see what other bloggers were discussing, I was amused to find a post called "
Starting a War" that shows the vast disconnect between reality and fantasy as it relates to ever-changing situation in the Middle East, and with Iran in particular.
Let's see what Cernig has to say:
In an email this morning, Mr M at Comments From Left Field asked me "What happens if Iran DOES make an overt war act on the US?" Of course, the rightwing meme is that Iran has been carrying out both covert and overt acts of war for some time now - but any time someone who doesn't really want a war with iran looks at their evidence it ends up looking contrived, conspiratorial and, in essence, fabricated.
I know a "little something" about debunking questionable claims of Iranian involvement, having (as thoroughly as one can) debunked a claim by the U.K. Sun tabloid yesterday that Iranian Revolutionary Guards were helicoptering into Iraq to kill British soldiers. This was not the first claim of Iranian interference I debunked either; just 11 days ago, I proved that a February 12 claim made in the U.K. Telegraph that "more than 100" precision long-range .50 BMG rifles purchased by the Iranian government had been captured in Iraq by American forces, was unsubstantiated.
A liberal blogger acquaintance of mine, upon reading the second post, quipped to me via email, "Is George Soros sending you checks? I need to now if Soros is paying you more than he pays me."
I am an "honest dealer" on the subject of Iran.
Cernig, in my opinion, is not correct in implying that all the evidence "ends up looking contrived, conspiratorial and, in essence, fabricated."
It is true that many are ideologically opposed to accepting charges that Iran is involved in supplying ordnance, training, and even personnel to anti-government forces within Iraq.
The claims made, however, are as solid as one could possibly make without actually capturing uniformed Iranian soldiers firing weapons at American forces within Iraq.
We know, for example, that Iran has been supplying EFPs--explosively-formed penetrators--to Shia militias. EFPs are not a new technology, having been used for decades by militaries around the world. These are not, in theory, difficult weapons to build, and we have indeed captured indigenously-made EFPs and even captured facilities within Iraq where EFPs were being assembled. Making them effective against heavily-armored vehicles, however, is not a skill Iraqi machinists have the capability to replicate.
Iraqi fighters have been making their own versions of the weapons, but so far none has been effective against U.S. forces, Odierno said. The Iraqi-made projectiles, using brass and copper melted on stoves, have failed to fully penetrate U.S. armor and are more likely to be used against Iraqi forces, whose vehicles often have thinner armored protection than U.S. vehicles, U.S. military officials said.
"We have not seen a homemade one yet that's executed properly," Odierno said, adding that such weapons are not a major concern "as of yet."
Correctly machining to precise tolerances the copper disk that becomes the projectile is not a skill Iraqi elements have, and recovered projectiles--and in many instances, captured intact EFPs that failed to go off--have provided strong, finger-print-like clues as to the kind of machinery used to produce the more effective copper disks. The machining marks are said to indicate Iranian manufacture, as does chemical analysis of the C4 explosives used to form the projectile, and the specific construction of the passive infrared (IR) electronic triggers that detonate the weapons.
In addition to EFPs, Iranian-manufactured mortar shells of recent manufacture have been recovered, as well as Fajr-3 medium-range rockets, developed in and manufactured exclusively by Iran, that have been fired into Baghdad's Green Zone. Some even bear markings of the Iranian military:
In Iraq, Iranian 240mm rockets, which have a range of up to 30 miles and could significantly change the battlefield, have been used recently by Shiite extremists against U.S. and British targets in Basra and Baghdad, the officials said. Three of the rockets have targeted U.S. facilities in Baghdad's Green Zone, and one came very close to hitting the U.S. Embassy in the Iraqi capital, according to the U.S. officials.
The 240mm rocket is the biggest and longest-range weapon in the hands of Shiite extremist groups, U.S. officials said. Remnants of the rockets bear the markings of Iran's Revolutionary Guard Corps and are dated 2007, those sources said. The Tehran government has supplied the same weapon, known as the Fajr-3, to Hezbollah, the Lebanese Shiite militia.
We also know Iran has been training anti-government insurgent groups in Iraq, as captured Shia militiamen have readily confessed, and as have their commanders, who freely confirmed that information to the Associated Press:
Commanders of a group inside the Shiite Mahdi Army militia told the Associated Press that there are as many as 4,000 members of their militia who were trained in Iran and they have stockpiles of EFPs. The commanders spoke to AP on the condition of anonymity because the U.S. military considers their group illegal and giving their names would likely lead to their arrest and imprisonment.
Further, we have captured Iranian military personnel in Iraq, including senior Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) officer Mohsen Chizari in Baghdad on December 21, 2006. Also captured in Iraq--and still in U.S. custody, along with four other Iranian operatives--was Baqer Qabshavi, a colonel in the IRGC.
Contrived? Conspiratorial? Fabricated?
To someone with an apparent interest in denial at almost any cost, certainly, but not to anyone who retains objectivity, especially at a time when Iranian weapons shipments and training are not only on-going, but apparently increasing.
But Cernig's disconnect goes beyond questioning Iranian ordnance, training, and personnel, to an almost delusional of view of life within Iraq that echoes communist claims of just how great life was inside the Soviet Union during the Cold War.
My first reaction was "why the f**k would the do that? They may be theocrats but mostly they have a rational wish to keep their good lives intact and ongoing." Its undoubtably true that a war on Iran would be a disaster for the U.S. and its allies - it would accomplish none of the warmongers objectives except revenge for a decades-old insult at an embassy and would be highly counter-productive to U.S. and allied interests globally.
"Good lives?"
Somehow, I think their rioters may disagree:
Motorists set fire to petrol stations in Tehran today in an angry backlash against the Iranian government's decision to impose rationing.
One station in Pounak, a poor area of the capital, was set alight while another in eastern Tehran was partially burnt and two of its pumps were completely destroyed.
"Last night, there were a lot of fights, people were furious due to the sudden decision," a 55-year-old pump attendant told Reuters.
[snip]
The scenes of disorder put further political pressure on the Iranian president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who is already under fire for failing to deliver on promises to improve the economy after his election in 2005.
In May, the government reduced subsidies for petrol, causing a 25% jump in prices.
The government had been planning to implement rationing for weeks. It was supposed to begin on May 21 but was repeatedly put off amid fears that Iranians would react badly as they are used to cheap and plentiful petrol.
"This man, Ahmadinejad, has damaged all things. The timing of the rationing is just one case," said Reza Khorrami, a 27-year-old teacher who was queuing at one Tehran petrol station last night.
You'll note that the rioting was proximately caused by government-imposed mandatory fuel rationing, but an underlying cause of this rationing is Iran's stagnating economy, and no doubt the massive crackdown against anti-regime groups:
Iran is in the throes of one of its most ferocious crackdowns on dissent in years, analysts say. with the government focusing on labor leaders, universities, the press, women's rights advocates, a former nuclear negotiator and Iranian-Americans, three of whom have been in prison for more than six weeks.
[snip]
The hard-line administration of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the analysts said, faces rising pressure for failing to deliver on promises of greater prosperity from soaring oil revenue. It has been using U.S. support for a change in government as well as a possible military attack as the pretext to hound his opposition and its sympathizers.
If this is the "good life," I'll pass.
But the blissfully unaware description of Iran's domestic situation is no more disconnected than are Cernig's thoughts on why the United States may have cause to take action against Iran:
Its undoubtably true that a war on Iran would be a disaster for the U.S. and its allies - it would accomplish none of the warmongers objectives except revenge for a decades-old insult at an embassy and would be highly counter-productive to U.S. and allied interests globally.
Unless Cernig can compose a hasty rationalization to explain away these sentiments, it appears that he or she is firmly convinced that our current crisis with Iran is based solely upon "revenge" for the 1979-81 hostage crisis.
What?
The fact that Iran is supplying weaponry and training that the U.S. military claims has killed more than 170 American soldiers, and seems to be escalating their pace of doing so, might just be seen as more proximate cause to most rational people, as would Iran's continued eliminationist rhetoric toward the United States and U.S allies.
The continuing development of a suspected nuclear weapons program, and the proven and even bragged about development of intercontinental ballistic missiles and MIRV warheads is also a very real concern. While technically being capable of launching conventional warheads, in practice, almost all MIRVs mounted on ICBMs in the world's arsenal are nuclear in nature, and so it is irrational to assume Iran has developed these weapons systems for any other purpose.
While no doubt comforting to Cernig, these rationalizations fail to address either actual present reality or the concerns of the immediate and near-term future.
I'll skip past Cernig's next paragraph, which merely reiterates the laughable Iranian "good life" claim, and studiously seeks to deny any possible Iranian nuclear threat... actually, I'll skip the rest of the post entirely (though you might find Cernig's explanation of how we economically forced the Japanese to bomb Pearl Harbor somewhat amusing).
The rest of the post merely continues down a path built upon a shoddy foundation.
Sadly, we knew Cernig is probably not alone on the left or right, in attempting to create a docile, "artificial reality" Iran to ignore. Sadly, the inabilty of some to deal with actual reality versus a preferred reality may yet lead us into a far more lethal future.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Hi CY,
That whole chunk of your post about the "good life" is based on a misinterpretation. I explicitly said the theocrats would want to keep their good life intact. Like the old Soviet Union and many another repressive regime, the folks in charge DO live a good life no matter how bad it gets for their common people.
As to the odious Iranian regime, I've posted often enough on my disgust with that regime. There are two such posts and links to two others on the frontpage right now. Ask Ali Eteraz, who I've been discussing such with. Sloppy research.
I debunked the Austian sniper rifles story within weeks of it appearing, not 11 days ago.
The independent experts disgree with the US military on the provenance of EFP's and whether Iraq can make effective ones on its own. Have a look in Newshoggers sidebar under the label "EFP" or read David Hambling's excellent work at the Danger Room.
Oh...and stoves don't get hot enough to melt copper or brass without modification. A standard propane stove heats to around 900 degrees farenheit. Copper melts at 1981 degrees and brass at 1724 degrees. Melting and casting such materials needs, at least according to the experts in the industry, a high-temperature firebrick foundry, a big industrial propane torch and a graphite crucible. Something basically wrong with the military's explanation there....
Indeed, the independent experts say it is simplicity itself to
form the disks correctly using a correctly configured metal press - once you have the math formulae for doing so. That's the difficult bit and the part Iran may have a hand in - although historically the formulae first fell into the hands of the IRA who promptly shared it with Hizbullah, FARC and others a couple of decades ago.
Mortar and Fajr 3 rounds? Pakistani arms bazaars claim they can duplicate any weapon right down to the serial numbers so well even the inventor cannot tell the difference. The black market in re-sold weapons sourced from corrupt government
individuals in the Middle East has never been stronger, some of the Iranian weapons have been shown to have been re-routed from Nigerian purchases, the entire area is a porous border (the old Silk Roads). Even Israel has arrested one officer for selling Iranian weapons into Iraq on the black market!
Occam's razor says that a sufficient explanation is good old black market private enterprise, no conspiracy theories required.
Maybe you need to go back and re-examine the military's claims, which the world's foremost independent expert on IED's and EFP's, Michael Knights, chief of analysis for the Olive Group, noted were entirely based upon the say-so of the notorious National Council of Resistance of Iran aka the Mujahedeen eKalq.
Regards, Cernig.
Posted by: Cernig at June 27, 2007 11:59 AM (IoRZM)
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Re: Riots and the Iranian economy.
Along with CY, Gateway, et.al., Spengler has been talking about the Iranian "Good Life" (?) for years.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/others/spengler.html
Posted by: stevesh at June 27, 2007 05:29 PM (Z2ltB)
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Occam's razor says that a sufficient explanation is good old black market private enterprise, no conspiracy theories required.
And the mullahs would of course turn a blind eye towards this "good old" criminal enterprise because they want more sanctions and the US military taking aim at them, right? They're of course powerless to do anything about this, because law enforcement in a dictatorial state is so difficult, right?
Sounds perfectly logical to me.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 28, 2007 10:10 AM (G2DEp)
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The SUN is UK tabloid style paper - very similar in substance as our National Enquirer. Nothing in it is very factual.
Posted by: Jane Llewellyn at June 28, 2007 05:47 PM (RieYM)
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June 26, 2007
James Earl Jones Counts All Non-Senatorial Americans Supporting Amnesty
Actually, I think he counted one guy twice...
...and that was probably (a disguised) Lindsey Graham running from one end of the line to the other.
Bryan's got the rest, and Glenn suggests a third party is becoming a better option as a result of Senators refusing to listen to their base.
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I heard from an inside source that this video is actually where James Earl Jones counts the fingers of all non-senatorial Americans supporting amnesty.
Posted by: Russ Creech at June 26, 2007 10:49 PM (s5s7Q)
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ROTFLMAO, both of you are hilarious.
Posted by: Dusty at June 27, 2007 06:35 AM (GJLeQ)
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On a serious, note, CY. Third party time is nice rhetoric, but I don't see it as a viable option without some semblance of explanation offered. Besides, there already is an actual Third Party, along with dozens of others.
For a 'third party' to emerge one needs more than the negative dissatisfaction of the status quo, or the postive preference for better way as a rallying point. For it to remain beyond a glimmering moment in history it has to be intent on addressing more than a few legislative or process faux pas.
Don't misundertand my doubt about it, I agree at bottom a third party is needed, but the last 30 years has given us a plethora of third parties living on in name and few members only. So casually throwing about the third party calls is as scary to the 'denizens of the establishment' as a picture of Rosie's daughter wearing a bandoleer.
I commented over at Ace's place that if a third Party is what many conservatives want, and I do note that Glenn isn't one but holds some common principles (not that I care much for labels myself), then a better approach is to begin by working within the party to establish a sufficent organization, membership and actual elected officials to maintain the party as viable and neccessary when it goes it alone.
Party success is having a stalwart and permanent membership with influence and that means having money to fund the efforts of those we want elected. Setting fundamental principles down in writing for the purpose of identifying and defining a party that wishes to attract both the membership and their efforts is the only guarantee of success. Otherwise, it's just begging to be listed somewhere down the page here:
http://www.politics1.com/parties.htm
Posted by: Dusty at June 27, 2007 07:28 AM (GJLeQ)
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That was the funniest posting I've seen in quite a while. Very nice. I might only add
this.
Posted by: lawhawk at June 27, 2007 09:28 AM (rRNqo)
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(rimshot)
Leave the jokes to Wonkette.
Posted by: keram at June 27, 2007 03:19 PM (J0Xcd)
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Child Abuse?
Drudge is alarmed over a picture on
Rosie O'Donnell's blog that apparently shows her daughter in some sort of military fatigues, festooned with a a bandoleer of small caliber ammunition.
Presumably, this is some sort of anti-war protest on the part of O'Donnell, but she seems unable to write anything more coherent than the headline, "A picture says a thousands posts."
Considering her storied track record of being unable to write complete sentences or even complete words (the Big Ro seems to think the blogosphere charges by the letter, like some demented form of text messaging), I suppose this could be considered at least a grammatical improvement.
But what, precisely, is the message is she trying to send?
Based upon the reaction of her readers, it seems to be either "I'm willing to pimp my child for a cheap political stunt," or, "I'm so nutty, even my own demented fans are disturbed over how I'd use my child."
Whatever her point, few seem to understand it, and I wonder if that cluelessness extends to O'Donnell herself.
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After reading the comments I came to the conclusion that Ms. O'Donut is the smartest and sanest of the bunch. That is the most pathetic accumulation of defectives I have ever encountered.
Posted by: GeorgeH at June 26, 2007 04:24 PM (Jkcjv)
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We must also decry the ongoing abuse of that
shrieking harpy Pamela Oshry Geller, over at "Atlas Shrugs." She's always using her kids as props in her incoherent hatefests. It disgusts me.
I so hate the way Rosie writes that I start quivering with rage every time I stumble across one of her "poems."
Posted by: Doc Washboard at June 26, 2007 04:27 PM (Rq904)
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I dunno, Doc. Sometimes she can be
pretty amusing. And my brother did that, so don't blame me. ;-)
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 26, 2007 04:53 PM (HcgFD)
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"A picture says a thousands posts"
Whats it say, she wants her daughter to be a terrorist? I think Rosie lost her marbles.
Posted by: jbiccum at June 26, 2007 09:40 PM (Rd4s4)
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I say we just ignore the barnyard animal. The less we talk about her, the better life is. That is one woman that even some libs have to admit is crazy.
Kram
www.FuzzySnake.com
Posted by: Kram at June 27, 2007 04:00 AM (i94/j)
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"A picture says a thousand posts."
Which of the double entendre hits you first, Rosie's effort to mock literacy or the bravado of Rosie actually fighting for anything beyond the point she feels you are not her friend anymore?
If there was a fitting picture worth a thousand explanations of maroon, that one comes second after a photo, any photo, of Rosie.
Posted by: Dusty at June 27, 2007 06:51 AM (GJLeQ)
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The child soldier is always a disturbing image, and the fact that people are disturbed is indeed, likely the very point. The message that I take away, at bottom, is that war is destroying our young and, implicitly, our future. You may disagree or think it trite, but that does not make it unclear.
So what's the big deal again? You guys don't get it so she must be nuts, is that what I am reading here?
Posted by: Shochu John at June 27, 2007 08:36 AM (hA1lr)
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Shocku, your moral relativity drivel falls on deaf ears here.
Teaching your children to hack off the heads of those who don't grow their beards long enough is not the same as teaching your children to stay the hand of those who attempt to hack off those heads. Teaching your children to beat on women who don't wear the proper style of clothing is not the same as teaching your children to intervene to stop the beating.
Children being included in efforts to show the moral philosophy of a family or society is not altogether repugnant and neither is a child soldier, even a child fighting, in and of itself. What determines it's repugnance is what the purpose is, what philosophy informs it and how great the need for action is.
In this instance I find it a good teaching moment. What is the purpose of Rosie offering this picture of her daughter, if she, in fact, does mean to offer a point at all? The disgust that many on our side display is threefold, I think. First, it is invested with the disgust for Rosie's own moral relativity, philsophy, and hypocrisy, which leads to the second disgust for Rosie's impersonal use of her daughter to argue points she is incapable of arguing herself.
But, third, last and more important, this disgust is held in the atmosphere of knowing Rosie really has no serious point to offer in her substitute for a thousand posts. She tried to paint with Picasso symbolism but left it absent of symbol like that of hosting a party and adding a note to the invitation, "Bring your own anything." You have brought "destroying our young people" and "destroying our future", both of which are "implicit" for you and which is itself, without much of a point either, not to mention pretty much wrong. The future will exist no matter how many times Rosie's publishes picture of her daughter wearing a bandoleer and I'll go on to say that if children grow up wearing the "metaphorical" bandoleer for the correct reasons, the future will become much brighter, not more dark.
Posted by: Dusty at June 27, 2007 09:40 AM (GJLeQ)
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"Shocku, your moral relativity drivel falls on deaf ears here."
I am not entirely sure at what point I made any moral point whatsoever. Perhaps you could point that out for me.
"She tried to paint with Picasso symbolism but left it absent of symbol like that of hosting a party and adding a note to the invitation, 'Bring your own anything.'"
I would hardly call this a Picasso symbolism. In fact, as far a symbolism goes, it's pretty kindergarten, which is why I am shocked at the confusion here at what she could POSSIBLY be trying to get at.
"not to mention pretty much wrong. The future will exist no matter how many times Rosie's publishes picture of her daughter wearing a bandoleer and I'll go on to say that if children grow up wearing the "metaphorical" bandoleer for the correct reasons, the future will become much brighter, not more dark."
Fine you disagree with the point. Personally, I think the message here is trite and utterly devoid of subtlety. That having been said, I still GET the point. I am astounded not that people here disagree with what she is saying with this picture, but that they don't understand it. It is really not that complicated.
Posted by: Shochu John at June 27, 2007 06:01 PM (hA1lr)
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June 25, 2007
Anonymous Sources: Iranian Forces Invade Iraq
Well, we saw
this coming:
Iranian Revolutionary Guard forces have been spotted by British troops crossing the border into southern Iraq, The Sun tabloid reported on Tuesday.
Britain's defence ministry would not confirm or deny the report, with a spokesman declining to comment on "intelligence matters".
An unidentified intelligence source told the tabloid: "It is an extremely alarming development and raises the stakes considerably. In effect, it means we are in a full on war with Iran -- but nobody has officially declared it."
"We have hard proof that the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps have crossed the border to attack us. It is very hard for us to strike back. All we can do is try to defend ourselves. We are badly on the back foot."
The Sun said that radar sightings of Iranian helicopters crossing into the Iraqi desert were confirmed to it by very senior military sources.
No doubt, certain harpies will "question the timing" before the sun comes up.
Jimmy Buffett Update: Searching for that lost shaker of salt.
Preferably, that salt will come in large grains.
I was careful last night when this claim was made to note in the headline that this story was linked to anonymous sources within the British government, and now that the Sun article has been published, I see nothing solid to which we could hang a credible claim on, other than the names of two British soldiers said killed by Iranian-placed bombs, Corporal Ben Leaning, 24, and Trooper Kristen Turton, 27.
According to Defence Internet these two soldiers were part of The Queen's Royal Lancers Battle Group, in Maysan Province, Southern Iraq, on Thursday 19 April 2007.
The story there reads:
Corporal Leaning was commanding and Trooper Turton was driving a Scimitar Armoured Reconnaissance vehicle which was providing protection for a convoy.
At approximately 1120 hrs local time, the vehicle was struck and badly damaged by an improvised explosive device attack, which killed Corporal Leaning and Trooper Turton and injured the Scimitar's gunner and two other members of the troop.
All casualties were taken by helicopter to Tallil airbase in Dhi Qar Province where they are receiving the best possible medical care for their injuries.
As it so happens, Michael Yon was there, and wrote about the attack in his dispatch, Death or Glory:
We had taken off nearly three hours earlier at 0830. At about 1120, the convoy entered the ambush. Eight of the 46 bombs detonated. EFPs tore through metal, ball bearings puncturing the vehicles, peppering them with holes. Major Edward Mack, who was at least six vehicles behind detonation in the convoy, heard two distinct explosions. He was approximately 40 meters from the nearest blast, and he reckons there was about 8 to 10 meters between the two.
WO2 (SSM) Steve McMenamy was about seventh vehicle back, 50 meters or so from the initial explosion. He felt the detonations and saw a massive black cloud. McMenamy cocked his weapon, jumped off the vehicle and took a knee, trying to assess what was happening. As the dust cloud cleared, McMenamy saw an injured soldier sitting down, shuffling himself away from the vehicle. McMenamy ran forward to check for casualties, but realized he was also running into contact, so he veered to the right and ran into culvert. He found Sergeant Jenkin kneeling and still alive.
“Are you all right?” asked McMenamy.
Jenkin grinned and answered, “No.”
McMenamy said, “Jimmy, look at me: I need to know if you are all right because I need to move forward.”
“I’m okay,” Jenkins said.
Trooper Callum McDonald helped Trooper Thompson into a drainage ditch where he was laying and moaning. Other soldiers rushed to help the wounded or to set up security. McMenamy moved forward to the stricken Scimitar, shouting to the crew, asking if anyone could hear him. He climbed onto the vehicle and saw that Turton, the driver, was dead. Climbing onto the turret, he searched for Corporal Leaning, the commander. As McMenamy crossed into the top of turret and looked into gunnerÂ’s side, he saw that Corporal Leaning was also dead.
Nothing in Yon's account of that day or his follow-up dispatch mentioned suspected Iranian involvement.
Independent of Yon's account, I contacted a senior U.S. officer in Iraq last night, and he was unable to confirm anything about the Sun story, other than that he had read it.
Like the "smoking gun" story I burned as groundless from the Independent Telegraph , this story does not have any credible supporting evidence to date.
I'll post more updates as I have them.
Another Update: Just heard from Yon via email. "48 IEDs, 46 were EFPs." He had to run (he's in a war right now, after all), and couldn't provide more info.
I have no context for this, so I'll leave you to draw your own inferences.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I hope the Selective Service is up to speed because we're going to need a few more troops to fight a nation of 67 million people.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 25, 2007 10:23 PM (tk0b2)
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If they're attacking us, then war it must be, I guess. I expect better proof than they came up with last time.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at June 25, 2007 10:57 PM (hmWdA)
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Doc, I sincerely hope this is a false alarm.
David, we've had this conversation before, but I'll ask again: how many folks do we need to draft to arm bombers, which will likely be the primary way we engage Iran?
They have very limited air assets, limited air defense assets, and lots of distance to cover to attack U.S. regional forces with anything other than rockets or small-scale airborne insertions. We've got three or four carrier groups in the area, and an Air Force that is largely bored and very well armed.
If we wish to simply defend Iraq, we can do so while inflicting tremendous "highway of death" type casualties.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 25, 2007 11:08 PM (HcgFD)
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Um, are any of you guys actually looking at the source of this story? I've lived in the UK -- the Sun is about as reputable as the National Enquirer.
It's not just that it's a Murdoch-owned publication with a semi-nude girl on page 3. It's that it's a piece of crap rag.
Posted by: Random Guy at June 25, 2007 11:25 PM (K1Emm)
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The Sun? Not a very reliable source at the best of times. They publish online so you can go look;
http://www.thesun.co.uk/
Posted by: Rafar at June 26, 2007 03:25 AM (kkgmI)
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Bob,
I know you think an air war will win in Iran, but I don't think they're going to sit quietly within their borders while we bomb the bejesus out of them.
If their troops are even now coming across the border (and isn't the Sun a Murdoch publication? so much for credibility), how will our ground troops hold off a full scale invasion? In the most optimistic scenarios I've seen, the British in the south will be overrun and our existing ground forces will be in a lot of trouble.
And dealing long-term with 67 million Iranians, now unified against us, who will most certainly take up guerilla tactics will require many more ground troops than we have now.
But if it comes to war, I pray you're right and I'm wrong.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 26, 2007 05:26 AM (tk0b2)
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David, do you really think that 67 million Iranians are unified, or would be unified, behind that government?
Bob, nice catch.
Posted by: Pablo at June 26, 2007 07:58 AM (yTndK)
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"Like the "smoking gun" story I burned as groundless from the Independent"
*ahem*
The Daily Telegraph I think you'll find. The Indy is about as antiwar as a newspaper gets in the UK, and if they published a story about Iranian interference in Iraq I would definitely sit up and listen.
As for the Sun, I wouldn't trust them if they told me the sun would rise in the morning. You've made the right call in backing away from them as a source.
"do you really think that 67 million Iranians are unified, or would be unified, behind that government?"
If we bomb them to bits? You betcha. If you bomb Iran you will end up having to go in with ground troops or nuke them, that should really be the starting point of discussions. We've had enough of hoping for the best.
Posted by: Rafar at June 26, 2007 08:22 AM (kkgmI)
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If you bomb Iran you will end up having to go in with ground troops or nuke them, that should really be the starting point of discussions.
So be it! It is long past the point when we should have made an example out of Iran, or some other Muslim country. I'm for frying the whole lot at this point.
Posted by: Trader-DFW at June 26, 2007 08:59 AM (VZI8r)
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"So be it! It is long past the point when we should have made an example out of Iran, or some other Muslim country. I'm for frying the whole lot at this point."
So you're up for a bit of pre-emptive genocide, are you?
At least we know where you stand. On the side of incinerating millions of women and children simply because of where they live.
I'm glad that I stand on the other side.
Anyone else here in favour of pre-emptively nuking Iran?
Posted by: Rafar at June 26, 2007 09:04 AM (kkgmI)
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Let me make one thing
very clear: the next person who advocates genocide--randomly wiping out an entire culture based upon differing belielfs or culture--gets banned.
I support the war in Iraq because I once worked for a wonderful man, a Baghdadi, and I've had conversations with other natives of Iraq, Iran, and Pakistan. They were all mostly secular, and all kind, gracious, and democracy-loving people, which is no doubt why they came here when they could. Others without the fianancial resources to leave are stuck in these nations, and live and die on the whims of petty tyrants, zealots, and dictators.
These people deserve a chance at a better life; they do not deserve to have some dolt casually dismiss them as worth quashing like a bug.
If you cannot differentiate between the general public and their sometimes extremist leaders and governments, pleas, find somewhere else to post.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 26, 2007 09:10 AM (9y6qg)
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"If you cannot differentiate between the general public and their sometimes extremist leaders and governments, pleas, find somewhere else to post."
*applause*
But that's what concerns me so much about the militarily hyped up state of people at the moment. It seems pretty clear that if you bomb the Iranians, they will respond with;
1) Terrorist attacks around the globe (which they will deny of course).
2) Attacks on shipping in Hormuz (probably mines too).
3) Running to their patrons, the Chinese and Russians for diplomatic defense.
4) Running pretty much 24 hour shows of maimed and killed innocents, particularly children (if they have to they'll mock up a few in a heartbeat but I doubt they'd have to).
5) Actively arming Iraqi Shiite groups with high end weapon systems such as SAMs and explosives, and then leaving those groups to do what they want with them (and they will want to shoot Americans and Brits).
These 5 actions seem to me to be extremely likely, and a bombing campaign is unlikely to stop any of them.
If this happens then what is the US to do? Watch the Brits get slaughtered in Basra? Witness an uprising from the Shiite masses?
Iran could run that game at a range of different settings for decades, they have the staying power to do it. So what is the response? More bombings? What with the Russians and the Chinese making uncomfortable noises and the round the clock "Maimed-Iranian-Baby-Cam" newscasts, the US would need a quick resolution or any government would fall come the next elections.
So that leaves you with invading and replacing the regime by force against what would now be an overwhelmingly hostile population or nuking the place to keep it quiet.
I hope that anyone with an ounce of humanity would renounce the nuking option, so you get left with a ground invasion, this time completely alone. That invasion would be very difficult and a long term occupation would be impossible. Setting up a government would also be impossible. The only objective would be to set up Iran as a failed state in order to reduce its military abilities. This wouldn't do anything to stop Iranian sympathisers from runnning terrorist cells around the globe, but it would at least stop Iranian interference in Iraq, for what that is worth.
Looked at like that (and there is nothing extreme or unlikely about that scenario, just people behaving as people and state behaving as states) we cannot afford to go to war with Iran, almost regardless of what they do.
In my view anyone who advicates a bombing campaign against Iran should be willing to accept either the nuclear option, or a ground invasion. If you aren't willing to accept these outcomes then bombing Iran is off the table and we should be looking at the alternatives.
Posted by: Rafar at June 26, 2007 09:31 AM (kkgmI)
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Iran has blood on their hands and anyone who says different has their heads in the sand. I am a military officer who spent a year 12 miles from the Iranian boarder in Iraq. I have no direct evidence, but heard plenty of Intel reports about Iranian involvement and reports of them being captured by us and the Kurds.
EFPs... google it.
Iran has lots of oil, but ONLY 1 oil refinery and a economy that is on the brink of collapse. I am not a fan of invading Iran or of throwing a missle here or there (ala clinton style) to "show them who's the boss". I would like to see us do SOMETHING. This "what if they invaded Canada" crap I saw on the "smoking gun" page is just BS moral equivalency and belongs on DKOS.
We don't have a few private groups supporting the insurgency in Iraq. We have the government of Iran, using it's military (Quds force) special forces to actively arm, train, and sometimes fight alongside the insurgents in Iraq. This fits the model they they used for Hezbollah (who has been killing Americans for a long time now). Then you have the naval attacks on the Australians and the UK in the gulf as well as the cross boarder ambush on the Iraqi/82d ABN soldiers patrolling the Iran/Iraq boarder. That was in Time Magazine, I believe and all three incidents involved active duty Iranian military units crossing an international boarder and attacking coalition soldiers. Not exactly 'out of character'. Come on... it's totally "Fake but accurate". You all can lament about how a. proud you are to be the first to debunk this story or b. how this is all just another evil BushHitler nazi conspiracy or c. how we'd do the same thing in a similar situation... but NONE of it changes the fact that Iran has been targeting Americans and killing them for a few decades now. They love we are in Iraq and I say we withdrawl from Iraq, bomb that stupid refinery (in conjunction with as strike on that wacky president and mullah) and a naval blockade of the gulf.
This is like raising a kid or dealing with problem soldiers. You have to ID your expectations, set reasonable limits and punishments/consequences for going outside those limits. I don't think that "don't kill our soldiers or arm and train criminals/terrorists to do so either" is unreasonable) Then when they violate that, you have to follow through or they have no respect for you. This is why Saddam had no respect for the US or the UN (actually does anyone really respect the UN?). This is why Iran thinks it can get away with the crap they are pulling (even though they know, we know they are doing it). Iraq, while it makes me sick to admit it, is no longer worth the effort. We can win it, but we will not muster the 'national will' to do so. There has never been an administration that has blown so much political capital or opportunities as this one. We lost the trust of the Iraqi people a long time ago. Incompetent planning (by politicians not soldiers) and risk adverse politics micromanaging a war lost us this one before it even started. Then political posturing squashed any chance of turning it around.
Posted by: Brad at June 26, 2007 09:41 AM (hQuOd)
14
Note that the market opened up this morning. If this were real then the market would crash.
Posted by: David Caskey at June 26, 2007 09:47 AM (G5i3t)
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Pablo,
I do think bombing Iran would unite the country.
Look at how divided this country is. Last week I saw a bumper sticker that said "Beautify America. Kill A Liberal." Yes, I know it was a joke. A joke about killing your neighbor or co-worker because he thinks universal health care is a good thing.
Now remember how united we were after 9/11. So yes, if you want to ally the large, moderate, pro-western middle class in Iran with the extremist mullahs, start a bombing campaign.
This would be insanity.
Along with the consequences Rafar concisely points out, consider this: China gets most of its oil from Iran. If we disrupt their oil supply, they might get a bit peeved. Right now, thanks to Bush economics, China holds notes on our house. The economy would take a giant hit if China started dumping dollars on the market in retaliation for an invasion. And that's the least they could do.
In other words, we're seriously screwed.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 26, 2007 09:53 AM (kxecL)
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A joke about killing your neighbor or co-worker because he thinks universal health care is a good thing.
...or maybe because they want us to lose.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 26, 2007 09:58 AM (9yWTK)
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Yeah, Purple Avenger, I want us to lose. Me, a guy with two family members in country. Me, a guy from a military family. Me, a veteran, I want us to lose.
Nice contribution to the discussion.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 26, 2007 10:01 AM (kxecL)
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Rafar - Your 9:31 - We've already been there or are there with your numbers 1, 2 and 5 with respect to Iran, although in number 5 you might want to slip in the word Sunni as well.
Posted by: daleyrocks at June 26, 2007 10:11 AM (0pZel)
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"We've already been there or are there with your numbers 1, 2 and 5 with respect to Iran"
At extremely low levels, yes. And we are without doubt engaged in special ops within Iran, and are funding the enemies of the Iranian state. This is a very low intensity conflict at the moment. Bombing Iran directly would lead to a vastly increased level of these actions. This would lead to a cycle of escalation that would lead inevitably to one of the two outcomes that I outlined.
Though, out of interest, which terrorist actions around the globe have been Iranian run recently?
", although in number 5 you might want to slip in the word Sunni as well."
I will when you offer convincing evidence that I should.
Either way, the equation is the same. Are the benefits of bombing Iran worth the cost of having to run a ground invasion or nuclear attack?
Posted by: Rafar at June 26, 2007 10:22 AM (kkgmI)
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Yankee,
I don't know how closely you've been following the EFP story, but the US is on the record saying that components for these are being manufactured in Iran and smuggled into Iraq by Quds Force. We even caught some convoys with EFP components coming over the border recently.
So if Yon says 46 of 48 IEDs were EFP type, that means about 95% of the IEDs he's referring to were Iranian supplied. I'd love to hear more from him on this, but it sounds like what he's saying in his shorthand way is "Yeah, the Iranians did it."
Posted by: John at June 26, 2007 10:34 AM (NcsIb)
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Gentlemen, I'm becoming more convinced with each passing day that it is the Iranian government's specific intention to provoke a war, but to do so in such a way as they might be able to blame others.
Their economy is tanking, and the regime is extremely unpopular at home and growing more so each day. They continue down a path with nuclear development designed to provoke the ire and concern of western nations, and back that with genocidal rhetoric and threats.
I think it is quite possible that Rafar may very well be right in his five assumptions of what Iran will try to do.
All that said, Iran is trapped by geography and culture, and is far more vulnerable than most realize.
They have more than 150,000 American servicemen to their west, along with thousands of Iraqi troops with long memories that would likely lay down their secular divisions to fight their natural enemies once more if attacked. Perhaps you haven't been following Iraqi Shia culture, but as I understand it, the Shia, be they JAM or Badr-alligned, gladly take Iranian money, political support, and munitions, but they would--in general--break against Iran if Iran attacked Iraq.
Sunni insurgents and tribes would almost certainly join U.S. forces as well, as an Iranian-dominated Iraq would be their worst nightmare. There would no doubt be terrorist attacks by groups already within Iraq against our forces and Iraqi forces if such a conflict borke out, but those launching such attacks would probably be destroyed rather quickly, by either the military and security forces they attack, or angry Iraqi tribesmen and other citizens.
Iran is bordered on the west by an small but potentially deadly NATO force that includes U.S. forces. They would not be a great threat, but they would, at the very least, force Iran to divide their attention and their assets.
To their south is the Persian Gulf and the Gulf of Oman. Let Iran shut down the Perisan Gulf, if they dare.
Such an action cuts two ways, as U.S. surface and sub-surface groups in the Gulf of Oman can blockade all gas going into a fuel-starved Iran at minimal risk to our forces, and unmanned cruise missiles targeting their few aging refinaries and velnerable pipeline systems would have them choked off and their military and economy ground to a literal halt within weeks.
This does not take into account possible actions by other Sunni nations in the region as a result of Iran possibly targetting their assets as part of an attempt to close gulf shipping. Saudi Arabia has a modern and substantial Air Force, and would almost assuredly retaliate if Iran attempted to hit their tankers or prots, which is what some analysts think may be part of the Iranian plan.
Further way, if terror attacks are launched against western nations in this hemisphere, Europe, or Israel, public resolve will only free our military to wage what would surely be the most devastating air attack in history.
Iran's navy would be destroyed in days, as would their remaining Air Force. Most of their generally obsolete ground forces, nake to U.S. spy satellites and drones, would be shredded, whether on the march, or bunkered down.
Toothless, and without fuel, I believe we'd allow Iran to have a peace, at which point a defanged regime would have very few credible threats or resources to keep it in power.
A ground invasion? Simply not needed. I think too many erroneously conflate the course of action we took in Iraq as the only option for dealing with other regimes in the region, and that simply isn't the case.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 26, 2007 10:37 AM (9y6qg)
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"Perhaps you haven't been following Iraqi Shia culture, but as I understand it, the Shia, be they JAM or Badr-alligned, gladly take Iranian money, political support, and munitions, but they would--in general--break against Iran if Iran attacked Iraq."
I would say that this is certainly true (though maybe not for the actual forces in the Badr brigade, but certainly for the civilians surrounding them), in the case of Iranian invasion.
But we're not talking about Iranian invasion, we're talking about Iranian response to an attack. If Iran were attacked by the US, those same Iraqis have stated publicly, and would almost certainly carry through on, a promise to attack US forces in Iraq in response.
This is quite a different situation. In one we have the Despised Persians attacking Iraq (why would they, they are natural allies) in the other we have Iraqis defending their Muslim brothers from attack by the Despised US. I suspect that US and UK forces would be forced between a rock and a hard place. What do they then do when one of the dominoes falls? If Pakistan rises up (they get touchy enough about knighthoods, how do you think they will feel about another invasion), is Shiites in Saudi rise up?
Frankly, the world is in too delicate a state to take this sort of action.
"Further way, if terror attacks are launched against western nations in this hemisphere, Europe, or Israel, public resolve will only free our military to wage what would surely be the most devastating air attack in history."
The problem here is that, as far as I know, Air War has proven to be pretty poor at achieving the aims set for it. Witness Iraq, Lebanon, Britain, Germany, Japan (caveat for nukes which do work), etc, etc. It is constantly hyped as the big thing, but it just as consistently fails to deliver.
One could probably argue that Serbia is an exception, but still ground troops needed to be present for it to achieve anything.
In addition, the most devestating effect of the war would be the complete loss of Iran's oil to the world, along with whatever additional losses they could cause to other oil producers around the region. With world supply barely meeting demand very ugly times would be the result.
To be honest I have been feeling like it is 1914 for a while now. Powers seem to be moving inexorably towards what could prove to be a disasterous conflict for very unclear and misguided reasons.
And who'll still be laughing in his cave as the West pulls itself apart, alliances between the Great powers crumble, the filthy Kafirs in Iran are crushed, hatred of the US is spread far and wide, and the world economy tumbles into a new great depression?
Yes, that's right, the Bearded Git himself.
I just don't think that I could take the gloating.
Posted by: Rafar at June 26, 2007 10:59 AM (kkgmI)
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Rafar,
If we bomb them to bits?
Let's refine that. If we were to hit Natanz, is that "bombing them to bits"? If they massed ground forces poised to invade Iraq and we took them out, is that "bombing them to bits"? And if we took either of those actions, why on Earth would we want to send ground forces in?
Bob,
Gentlemen, I'm becoming more convinced with each passing day that it is the Iranian government's specific intention to provoke a war, but to do so in such a way as they might be able to blame others.
Exactly right. And there are ways we can contain them with military force, if need be, without giving them the all out war they seem to be pursuing.
Their economy is tanking, and the regime is extremely unpopular at home and growing more so each day. They continue down a path with nuclear development designed to provoke the ire and concern of western nations, and back that with genocidal rhetoric and threats.
Also right, and that can be leveraged. The likelihood that 67 million Iranians are going to prostrate themselves for Khameni and his legion of goons is low.
Posted by: Pablo at June 26, 2007 11:01 AM (yTndK)
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"If we were to hit Natanz, is that "bombing them to bits"? If they massed ground forces poised to invade Iraq and we took them out, is that "bombing them to bits"? And if we took either of those actions, why on Earth would we want to send ground forces in?"
You hit Natanz, they hit the straights, you blow up their refinery, they send a thousand SAMs into Iraq and blow up Congress, you bomb Tehran, Iraqi Shiites overrun a US army base.
It isn't the exact sequence of events I'm talking about here, just the option of escalation or not. If you bomb them you start the inexorable march of escalation and it will end up with, in the most optimistic scenarios, a crushed and destitute Iran which provides a breeding ground for just the sort of hatred and terrorism that lead to 911, along with a smashed world economy.
Or you could try not escalating and seeing if a better outcome is possible.
Posted by: Rafar at June 26, 2007 11:08 AM (kkgmI)
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Or you could try not escalating and seeing if a better outcome is possible.
They've got quite a bit of say in that, don't you think?
Posted by: Pablo at June 26, 2007 11:27 AM (yTndK)
26
And why on Earth would we bomb Tehran? If your scenario began to play out, we'd be taking out the SAM's, not the citizenry.
Posted by: Pablo at June 26, 2007 11:34 AM (yTndK)
27
"They've got quite a bit of say in that, don't you think?"
Yes, they have. And they haven't done anything more than the US is doing to them. They're arming Shiites in Iraq? Well, so is the US. They're training and funding their political pets? Well, so is the US. They capture allied troops in blatantly outrageous circumstances, the US has captured Iranian diplomats (with or without scare quotes) in blatantly outrageous circumstances. As far as the Iranians are concerned the US and UK are running terrorist groups inside Iran, and I imagine that they are a little suspicious about those passenger jets full of Revolutionary Guards commanders that keep crashing on takeoff.
As far as I can tell, most alleged or actual Iranian moves have been counters to US actions, it is just that, from our perspective, it is much easier to view their actions as much more outrageous because they are against us.
What Iran hasn't done, as far as I can tell, is directly attack US forces. Similarly, the US hasn't directly attacked Iranian forces.
Posted by: Rafar at June 26, 2007 11:38 AM (kkgmI)
28
"And why on Earth would we bomb Tehran?"
In retaliation for the bombing of the US Congress by a truck bomb. In my wholly made up and not necessarily accurate prediction.
It isn't the 'how' that is important here, it is the process. You ramp up, they ramp up in response. Once you get in that cycle national pride, vanity of leaders and military necessity kick in and before you know it you're in the middle of a disasterous war. It isn't as if this sort of thing hasn't happened before.
Posted by: Rafar at June 26, 2007 11:42 AM (kkgmI)
29
As far as I can tell, most alleged or actual Iranian moves have been counters to US actions, it is just that, from our perspective, it is much easier to view their actions as much more outrageous because they are against us.
Nukes? Hezbollah? EFP's?
Are we the Lebanese? Are we the Iraqis?
Posted by: Pablo at June 26, 2007 11:43 AM (yTndK)
30
What Iran hasn't done, as far as I can tell, is directly attack US forces.
Remember
this?
In retaliation for the bombing of the US Congress by a truck bomb.
One, you're not going to truck bomb Congress, ever. It's physically impossible. Two, why would we then bomb Tehran? We act strategically, not emotionally.
Posted by: Pablo at June 26, 2007 11:50 AM (yTndK)
31
It isn't the 'how' that is important here, it is the process. You ramp up, they ramp up in response. Once you get in that cycle national pride, vanity of leaders and military necessity kick in and before you know it you're in the middle of a disasterous war.
See Iraq, 1991-2003.
Posted by: Pablo at June 26, 2007 11:52 AM (yTndK)
32
Rafar,
So who is the US equivalent of Hamas in your view? And using the word diplomats (with or without scare quotes) to refer to the Irbil six makes it sound like you're buying the Iranian line wholesale. Do you think those guys were diplomats? I don't.
The US captured Iranian insurgents actively promoting the killing of our soldiers in Iraq. In return the Iranians attempted a direct reprisal by infiltrating a US base and kidnapping (and later killing) five soldiers in Karbala.
Your effort at moral equivalence is thin.
Posted by: John at June 26, 2007 12:02 PM (NcsIb)
33
Rafar,
And the US equivalent of Hamas is who exactly?
I think the moral equivalence is pretty thin. As for a direct attack on the US, see Karbala.
Posted by: John at June 26, 2007 12:07 PM (NcsIb)
34
Sorry for the double post. The first one seemed to vanish for about 5 minutes then appear the moment I hit post on the shorter second draft.
Posted by: John at June 26, 2007 12:09 PM (NcsIb)
35
Oh, Lord, Rafar, give it up. You were making sense, up to a point, but you really stepped in it when you said that Persians and Iraqis were "natural allies."
Um, you do know that Arabs and Persians don't like each other, yes? I mean, they really,
really don't like each other. Think 12th-century England vs France.
No, they aren't anything remotely resembling "natural allies."
Your casual dismissal of all varieties of air offensive with a single wave of the hand betrays your own ignorance of the topic. First the examples presented represent a very wide variety of methods. Close air support isn't tactical bombming, which isn't "strategic" (AKA logistical) bombing. Mixing them up together in that manner is analagous to saying that a Colt M1911A1 is the same as a 88mm mortar, which is the same as a 105mm howitzer. After all, they all come out of a barrel, they all go "bang," right? They must be the same.
Air war comes in a wide variety of flavors, and demonstrates a wide variety of results. No one type is foolproof, in that it produces guaranteed results, although some types seem to be more effective than others. There is a running gag in the Army: "B-52 bombs are very, very accurate. They always hit the ground..."
On the other hand, the BUFFs
can be quite accurate, depending on circumstances.
One size doesn't fit all. Since that seems to be part of your personal diplomatic preferences, I'm surprised you managed to swallow such a crassly inaccurate generalization about air war.
Your later comments make it clear that you've bought into the Iranian hype. If you recall, we very frequently saw a a laundry-list similar to yours before the Iraq invasion, and list failed to pan out as well. You also, BTW, seem to be reducing CY's intelligent & reasoned analysis to "bomb the buggers." But then, you do seem to have a poor grasp of what bombing is, so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised.
It seems to me that your position is an excellent example of the old saying that "violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." True, but that's only because the incompetent wait until the last resort as a matter of policy. You are so fixated on what
might happen that you have paralyzed yourself into doing ... nothing. I'm sure the kleptocracy in Tehran would love seeing the West sit on its collective thumbs, just as the Brits did with regards to their captured sailors.
CY, on the other hand, has presented a measured, reasoned response to the situation. I think it's a rather good plan, and I hope Washington has something along those lines in mind.
But then, I also think we need a better source than the
Sun before getting all fired up, as well...
Posted by: Casey Tompkins at June 26, 2007 12:31 PM (xdVg/)
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"Your effort at moral equivalence is thin."
I make no attempt at moral equivalence. I couldn't care less about morality in this matter.
"Do you think those guys were diplomats? I don't."
I don't know, and neither do you. What I do know is that the Kurdish authorities screamed to heaven about it. Do you think that this was because the Kurds are supporting Iranian insurgents?
"The US captured Iranian insurgents actively promoting the killing of our soldiers in Iraq."
You suppose. I have yet to see any solid evidence to support that asssertion.
"In return the Iranians attempted a direct reprisal by infiltrating a US base and kidnapping (and later killing) five soldiers in Karbala."
Again, you suppose, largely based on the reasoning, as far as I have seen, that since it was too difficult for Iraqi insurgents to carry out it must have been the Iranians.
What is thin here is the evidence you present.
Posted by: rafar at June 26, 2007 01:26 PM (P0E2s)
37
"No, they aren't anything remotely resembling "natural allies."
All Iraqis, no certainly not. The lot running the country, the ones in political parties which were sheltered in Iran for the Saddam years, the ones with militias that were openly trained in Iran for those years, SIIC, Dawa, Badr. Those guys are most definitely Iran's allies.
Have you not been paying attention to your history?
"Since that seems to be part of your personal diplomatic preferences, I'm surprised you managed to swallow such a crassly inaccurate generalization about air war."
Well, try to suppress the Iranians with air strikes and we'll see what we get, shan't we.
Dive in by all means. Just don't be surprised when it goes horribly wrong.
Posted by: Rafar at June 26, 2007 01:32 PM (P0E2s)
38
I would think if Iran had any helicopters across the border they would have been dispensed with rather quickly. The Iranian qud are our cia-green berets and navy seals and even Rambo (scary thought isn't it.) and like the old KGB, they have One qud for every number of soldiers, as well as their own SS units . They can operate solo and undetected and are very familiar with Iraqi soil ever since their highly effective and bloody counteroffensive against Sadam Hussein. (people forget the tens of thousands of iranians tied together as soviet/japanese style human assault waves. (Tied to prevent someone from backing off) We act as if they shouldn't be there. All these areas have, in addition to the high tech mines of today, also mines from before the U.S./British expedition came upon the scene. I hardly consider this an "alarming" development.
I see an armistice coming soon, much like the Korean war. Patience is the better part of valor,
Now I really hope we do not abandon the Kurds who are the equivalent of the Vietnam Montangyard (I hope I spelled that right). I believe we can spread stability outwards from there, by concentrationg our resources/assistance the same way Israel is attempting to stabilize the west bank and rekindle relations while Hamas is pigeonholed in Gaza. At least with the Kurds we have a loyal friend and have a better chance of success. Kudos to our forces establishing tribal treaties against Alqaeda in I raq. It is making a difference. Like any good cooking it takes time.
Posted by: SgtYork at June 26, 2007 03:29 PM (lLtUR)
39
Hey All,
Here's the plan. Support the
Iranian Divestiture Project, then heave a few grenades in the last functioning gas refinery. Then use the force projection of our two carrier groups in the Gulf to shut down any new gas stock imports. The Regime will tank in a matter of days.
RBT
Posted by: rocketsbrain at June 26, 2007 03:33 PM (1vk+s)
40
Folks get so squishy when you discuss the nuke option, invoking the 'daisy' ad that did in Goldwater's hopes for the Presidency, and crying about all the toasted little children and women.
Well, how many did we toast in our own city of Las Vegas? We set those things off around there all the time. For a long time.
No, targeted, surgical nuclear strikes are a perfectly sound option.
Posted by: Bane at June 26, 2007 04:08 PM (emyIX)
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A few corrections/comments, Rafar:
You hit Natanz,
which we do at will, repeating as necessary, sustaining 0-2% casualties (if the Israelis do it, 0-5% casualties) per strike;
they hit the straights,
Which they can do just about once, with limited effectiveness, suffering 50-75% casualties per strike (and it gets worse for them once they have done it and lose the advantage of surprise);
which leads to destabilization of their own economy as their own crude goes through the Straits;
which in theory angers other OPEC Straits-users and customers, leading to pressure to make it all stop - you may like to think all the pressure will be on the US; it ain't necessarily so;
you blow up their refinery, they send a thousand SAMs into Iraq and blow up Congress,
A little confusion here - you mean the US Congress? But to continue:
we blow up or capture their refineries and wellheads, their economy and society grind to a halt: no POL, no modern warfare. Let them all come with swords if they like. Surely money for SAMs will be curtailed, and they will be wanted for home defense anyway;
how do you blow up Congress with SAMs;
blowing up Congress would result in nuclear annihilation of Iranian civilization, which I think has been accepted here to be an effective tactic - it wouldn't seem so brutal juxtaposed against pictures of a ruined Capitol (certainly not to Congresscritters);
you bomb Tehran, Iraqi Shiites overrun a US army base.
We already skipped "bombing Tehran," and all the stops would be yanked out anyway;
define the "base" to be overrun - do you mean an outpost with six guys in three Humvees, or a real base? Barring a surprise attack, the latter is impossible (see Khe Sanh; see MOAB; see Sheriff ADS);
with Iran in ruins, remember, the pressure, influence, money, etc. supporting the enemy in Iraq diminishes greatly;
Also, as the naked power of the US is shown, resistance will diminish. I'm afraid the example of the Ottoman Empire does not illustrate that the Middle East cannot be ruled by a sufficient amount of force.
NOBODY in Iraq thinks that AQ will save them from the US. What people may think is that AQ is more likely than the US to kill and maim them in the short term (or more so than the US is to save them), so should be appeased. Were this calculus to be overset, no AQ could buy breakfast in Iraq.
Posted by: nichevo at June 26, 2007 10:00 PM (Ak+g8)
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"A few corrections/comments, Rafar:"
You don't need to correct it, I already said that it was a made up and not necessarily accurate scenario.
"how do you blow up Congress with SAMs;"
Yes, that is a confusing sentence, sorry. I meant sent SAMs into Iraq and, as a separate matter, attacked congress with some sort of suicide attack.
I note that none of these suggestions deals with the potential for worldwide depression due to oil shock, or with the predictable ire of the Russians and Chinese.
I also note that your response encompasses the nuclear strike that I suggested was one of the two options and as such merely confirms my point.
Posted by: Rafar at June 27, 2007 02:27 AM (P0E2s)
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One simple question. Why can't we just carpet bomb Iran? You know...beat them into submission. These guys are financing the suicide bombers over in Iraq. Get to the source.
Kram
www.FuzzySnake.com
Posted by: Kram at June 27, 2007 04:06 AM (i94/j)
44
All of the comments here are great, however, President Bush is really Jimmy Carter in wolves clothing. I am a 58 year old retired USAF CMSgt who is ready to go to IRAN/IRAQ with a rifle if necessary but Bush is a paper tiger. This Country will watch and do nothing to IRAN and eventually come home beaten and broke.
Heck, here at home we can't even control our own government, the LIBS prevent us from defending our own soil from illegals comng in here. How does anyone ever think we would go against IRAN with all the weak kneed so-called representatives calling the shots. IRAN knows this too, they ain't stupid!!! IRAN will get away with anything they do in IRAQ.
The only ones with the ????? to do anything is Israel and they are being held back by the good ole' USA too.
This is such a frustration watching this all unfold
Posted by: Larry at June 27, 2007 11:25 AM (F26eZ)
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Yeah, Purple Avenger, I want us to lose. Me, a guy with two family members in country. Me, a guy from a military family. Me, a veteran, I want us to lose.
At least you've finally decided to drop the silly fiction that you're "not a liberal"...since that's exactly the demographic YOU targeted YOUR remark at, and in stating the above clearly identified with.
You can say you don't want us to lose, but its pretty clear you're not cheering for a win either.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 27, 2007 07:24 PM (G2DEp)
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German Newspaper: Threats are Torture
I guess guys from a country that killed 12 million in ethnic cleansing campaigns and the occasional beastly human "medical experiments" in World War II would be experts on the subject,
right?
A German newsmagazine reported Sunday that two of its journalists embedded with troops from the North Carolina-based 82nd Airborne Division in Afghanistan witnessed Afghan and American soldiers involved in abusing prisoners.
The weekly Focus reported that, while on patrol with troops this month southwest of Kabul, reporter Wolfgang Bauer and photographer Karsten Schoene witnessed an incident they said amounted to torture.
And what, precisely, did they see that amounted to torture?
When the suspect refused to talk, the magazine said, the platoon leader tied one end of a rope to the suspect's foot and the other end to a vehicle, then threatened to drag the man unless he told the truth.
Focus reported that the platoon leader then had an American soldier start the motor. The magazine printed a picture of what it said was the prisoner tied to the vehicle, with a soldier standing nearby.
After idling for two minutes, the vehicle's motor was shut off. The man was not dragged, the magazine reported, and the suspect was set free.
In other words, there was no torture, and it appears the suspect was set free without a scratch on him. But, as the world media continues to lower the bar on what amounts to torture to include empty threats as torture, this journalist sees evidence of a "fake execution."
Funny, how tying a rope around a guy's foot is now equated with drilling kneecaps, amputating limbs, beheadings, and gouging out eyes, which incidentally, is not uncommon at all among Islamic extremists.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I think that threatening people with death--especially death by dragging--a form of torture. I would not have permitted any of my soldiers to behave this way, and would have refused an order to do so by a platoon leader or other superior.
Colonel Martin Schweitzer agrees. "So ein Verhalten steht im Widerspruch zu all dem, für das die US-Armee steht und an das sie glaubt," he says in this article: http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/afghanistan-tagebuch/afghanistan_aid_64432.html. If you can't read German, he says, "Such behavior goes against everything the US Army stands for and believes."
This is *not* the behavior of professional soldiers, and it's no surprise to me that the "leader" here was an Afghan. No US NCO should have stood by and watched without stopping this. It is morally wrong, and even if no actual pain or damage was inflicted on the apprehended person, it does not help our standing among the local population there, nor among Americans here at home, who now may have a lower opinion of our brave troops.
If you cannot see the moral problems--not to mention the lack of professionalism shown by the US soldiers involved--then you need to take another look at the Gospels and US Army training manuals on treatment of prisoners.
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at June 25, 2007 11:44 AM (r9Q9X)
2
RSS,
I agree with you that this was unprofessional and reprehensible behavior
if true, but calling it "torture" or a "mock execution" is hysteria, and nothing more, which was the point of my post.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 25, 2007 11:56 AM (9y6qg)
3
How, exactly, would you define "torture?" 18 U.S.C. § 2340A defines torture as an “act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control.” I think threatening to kill someone, setting up the execution, and making a tied-up prisoner believe that death is imminent counts as "intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering." Alas, sadly, all too many people--including many "Christians"--buy into this out of personal fear of and loathing for a particular group of people.
And even given, for the sake of argument, that this is not torture, it certainly fits any logical definition of "mock execution." They threatened to kill the man if he didn't follow their instructions. What else would you call it--a hazing at Phi Kappa Limbaugh?
At any rate, using these terms to describe what these soldiers did is defensible enough so that doing so is hardly "hysterical." These actions arguably constitute torture under US--not international--law, and it is therefore in no way "hysterical" to say so--even if someone who celebrates a culture built on owning human beings disagrees. More hysterical is your jerking knees reaction, which amounts to "mental torture isn't really torture--you need physical pain and marks on the skin for it to be torture--and besides, these foreign reporters are probably lying if they report that US soldiers are staging mock executions."
Of course, neither of us knows what went on there that day--innocent until proven guilty, and all that. But I for one am very familiar with this publication, and I doubt very seriously that they faked the photo. Either way, we'll know soon enough. In the meantime, I am willing to wager not only that this report is accurate, but that this sort of thing happens all the time--but most GIs are savvy enough to wait until reporters aren't around.
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at June 25, 2007 12:53 PM (r9Q9X)
4
RSS,
According to the very regulations you cite, torture is an "act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control."
Clearly, there was nothing even remotely approaching a definition of physical torture, and from my perspective, I don't think I agree that this amounts to "severe" mental pain or suffering, either. He was scared for several minutes, tops, according to even the German media account. Does several minutes of being tied to a truck, even one where the engine gets revved, amount to torture? I'd suggest that while it may amount to abuse, it does not amount to torture.
Nor do I see any indication in the account that anyone claimed he would be dragged "to death," as you conflate, and calling this a "fake execution" strongly pushes the bounds of reality.
I defy you to provide evidence that I celebrate "a culture built on owning human beings." I've clearly explained why my blog was
named as it was, which stemmed from comments made by friends in New York teasing me about being a "Confederate Yankee" for being a Southerner living in New York at the time this site was founded, among other reasons.
I realize that you feel it is necessary to stoop to personal attacks for reasons I could, quite frankly, care less about, but if you continue to make such libelous statements devoid of fact, I will ban you from commenting on this blog again.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 25, 2007 01:17 PM (9y6qg)
5
Parse definitions of torture and mock execution all you want. At least three people believe that it was or at least may have been, and one of them is a US Army Colonel, who began an investigation. At any rate, whatever your “perspective,” the debatable nature of the terms and the act make using one to apply to the other less than “hysterical,” and remain well within the “bounds of reality.”
You can also claim that the title of your blog and your use of the Confederate Battle Flag in your design mean nothing. I don’t believe it—I think you do celebrate the cultural heritage of the South, even if I can’t prove it. I’m not the only one who feels this way, as you surely know--you provide circumstantial evidence with your title and imagery. If you really don’t think that the Southern states were morally right when they seceded to protect the right to own human beings, you might want to distance yourself a bit more from Southern heraldry. You may also want to state your thoughts on the matter, just to clear the air.
The whining about personal attacks is getting pretty rich. As I have suggested before, you seem more capable of dishing it out than of taking it. Personal attacks are a staple of your blog, and you know it. "Persistent vegetative state," anyone?
A cursory search of your site produces multiple examples of more specific insulting language directed at liberals. Perhaps it is because you live in NC, but you seem particularly rude to John and Elizabeth Edwards, from the “Silky Pony” appellation to directly calling Ms. Edwards an “idiot” (4.26.07). Doesn’t get more personal than that. If you want to toss insults at others, you should try to be a bit more thick-skinned.
As I've said before, ban away—it’s your blog. I challenge you, however, to live up to your own occasional reprimands to stick to facts and reasoned arguments, and make your tone less insulting to liberals. Crying because I accused you of celebrating a culture based on slavery while you run a blog based on routine name-calling and unproven claims of media fraud is hypocritical and pathetic.
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at June 25, 2007 03:55 PM (r9Q9X)
6
100% illegal and the guy has no business questioning prisoners. This is how real trained interrogators get a bad name. He should and probably will be charged under the UCMJ. If you are going to do something stupid, don't have it witnessed and recorded for posterity. 'Tard.
Posted by: Homer at June 25, 2007 04:10 PM (hhbx+)
7
I wish that they WOULD have dragged the guy around. I am sick to death of this hobbling our troops and playing this damned moral-one-upmanship game. You damn cry-babies would do anything to see our people lose the fight over there.
Better yet, give the prisoner to the Iraqi army guys to let them 'interrogate him.
Posted by: Greg at June 25, 2007 05:29 PM (KjP8a)
8
It's always nice to see folks who claim they support the troops treat the launching of an investigation like an indictment, or even a conviction. Tell me: does the
Ilario Pantano acquital fill you with a Sullivanesque "heartache?"
I also find it quie amusing when your fellow liberals claim I'm racist, (and even you admit that there is no "there," there) even as you (collectively) seemed to share such delight when liberal blogger Steve Gilliard painted Michael Steele in blackface, and time and again, attack Michelle Malkin and any other conservatives-of-color as race traitors.
As for the flags in my masthead, you'll note that the topmost flag is an American flag, and not by accident. I further suggest you study your heraldry a bit; that is not a Confederate battle flag.
As for personal attacks, you seem to once again simply prefer to conflate separate things together. If you can't tell the difference between attacking a political figure or ideological movement, and empty, scurrilous personal attacks that you admit have no merit based on anything other than your own "knowing," then I suggest you might want to find another venue where that kind of conflation is accepted... Daily Kos or Americablog just might be your cup of tea.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 25, 2007 05:30 PM (HcgFD)
9
[W]hich incidentally, is not uncommon at all among Islamic extremists.
Let's not even go there. When we start excusing our own ugliness by rationalizing that it's less ugly than someone else's ugliness, then the bad guys have won.
Greg: what you call "hobbling the troops," others call "trying to live up to what we're supposed to stand for as a nation." I thought that whole idea was that "they hate us for our (fill in the blank)." Are you suggesting that you want them to hate and envy us for our ruthlessness? That would stink, buddy.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at June 25, 2007 06:26 PM (KYErd)
10
We have brought this on ourselves.
When the administration refuses to outlaw what anyone not in the thrall of some Jack Bauer fantasy would call torture, we lose all credibility.
And, the fact that torture doesn't work should make even armchair warriors think twice before abandoning the Geneva Accords.
When I read men like Max Boot talk about Abu Ghraib as nothing worse than what happens to trainees in basic, especially when Max Boot has never been through basic, I get angry.
What we went through in basic training is not even a close cousin to the treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib, and this post and every one like it is a disgrace to all of those who have served honorably as MI interrogators and got better, faster, more reliable results than all the closet sadists out there.
What have we become? Why are we codifying barbarity?
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 25, 2007 07:52 PM (tk0b2)
11
I don't think an investigation equals an indictment--hence the "innocent until proven guilty" comment, which you don't believe applies to the folks held without due process at Guantanamo.
I did not call you a racist, I have nothing to do with Steven Gilliard, and I have only acted collectively with liberal bloggers in trying to protect the US and its Constitution against those who would create an imperial Presidency, complete with Vice Presidents who claim executive privilege when trying to hide meetings with energy company CEOs but want to be in the legislature when a Presidential EO requires them to make sure their electronic correspondence is secure from our enemies.
The image in the first two letters of "Yankee" in the title of your blog is the "Stars and Bars," which is one of the battle flags used by Confederate Armies. At least it looks that way from the snippet you used.
And whether or not directed against a political figure or ideological opponent, "I don't know whether Chris Matthews or Elizabeth Edwards is the bigger idiot here per se, be as Edwards is trying to escort Silky Pony into the White House stable, I'd say it is probably her" when directed against Elizabeth Edwards is no less empty and scurrilous a personal attack than "you celebrate a culture based on owning human beings" when directed against the writer of a blog titled "Confederate Yankee" who uses Confederate flags in the design of that blog.
I will say it again: You think it is fine to call names and insult people you don't agree with when they do things you don't agree with, but you want to ban people from your blog who do the same to you. This is the behavior of a ten year old. It is hypocritical and pathetic.
Ban me. And tomorrow morning, while you are shaving, look into your own eyes and try to convince yourself that the behavior you support with this post is moral. Jesus is watching.
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at June 25, 2007 09:25 PM (SQ2r6)
12
Hello dere, R. Stanton! Just wanted to chime in to say that I'm not Southern by any stretch of the imagination, born and raised and lived well north of U.S. 40. And also glad that my dad and other WWII vets never lived to see the day when the Germans dared to raise their heads to lecture us about anything.
Posted by: Cappy at June 25, 2007 09:29 PM (jciRo)
13
You guys think thats torture? According to your logic, pointing a gun at someone is torture. Honestly whats the difference? Isnt that the same thing?
Lets start an investigation into every soldier in the military who ever pointed a gun at someone. Honestly I've seen you guys make some good points about torture, but this is completely ridiculous.
Posted by: jbiccum at June 25, 2007 09:33 PM (Rd4s4)
14
"Why are we codifying barbarity?"
Do you dispute the fact that war and our enemy is barbaric?
Posted by: jbiccum at June 25, 2007 09:35 PM (Rd4s4)
15
Ban me. And tomorrow morning, while you are shaving, look into your own eyes and try to convince yourself that the behavior you support with this post is moral. Jesus is watching.
phffffft!
Oh, I'm sorry... you're actually serious, aren't you?
It must be painful, up there on that cross. Funny, as I never recall their having made one in a tandem model...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 25, 2007 09:42 PM (HcgFD)
16
jbiccum,
War and our enemy are indeed barbaric. That's a sad fact. I wish we as a species could evolve beyond this stupid violence, but I know that's not happening in my lifetime. It's one reason I keep a loaded .45 in the house. I'm not going without a fight.
However, as a people we have gotten together with other civilized nations and tried to place some limitations on human barbarity. We know what man is capable of and we try to regulate it. That we're not always successful doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
We make rape and murder illegal, and yet it still occurs.
The difference here is that, as a society, for the first time thanks to the Bush administration's curious reading or the Geneva Accords, we have said that torture is legal.
Most of our allies have reacted in horror to what this administration is doing and they're right. Hence, this article in a German paper.
Do I think tying this guy's ankle to a truck and threatening to drag him is torture? No, I don't. I've seen much worse. But we have set ourselves up as people willing to torture, so as the joke goes, we've determined what we are, now we're just haggling over the price.
And the thing I keep coming back to is that this is completely unnecessary. We don't get good intel through torture because a man will say anything to make it stop.
People who have studied this and interrogated POWs have found that humane behavior, and smart interrogation techniques reveal more reliable intel and does so without sacrificing our principles as a civilized people.
So, with that knowledge I ask again, why are we codifying barbarity? What has become of us?
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 25, 2007 10:14 PM (tk0b2)
17
Funny, how tying a rope around a guy's foot is now equated with drilling kneecaps, amputating limbs, beheadings, and gouging out eyes
Or waterboarding.
Oh wait, we do that one!
Posted by: Random Guy at June 25, 2007 11:30 PM (K1Emm)
18
"In other words, there was no torture, and it appears the suspect was set free without a scratch on him. "
Would you consider it torture if you had found out that Iranians had done this to the captured British sailors? How about if they had locked them in rooms and repeatedly subjected them to freezing temperatures? Prevented them from sleeping? Waterboarded them?
Or would you consider this acceptable behaviour?
Posted by: Rafar at June 26, 2007 03:27 AM (kkgmI)
19
"I'd suggest that while it may amount to abuse, it does not amount to torture."
I honestly cannot believe that this sort of distinction is even being discussed in this day and age.
Posted by: Rafar at June 26, 2007 03:32 AM (kkgmI)
20
"According to your logic, pointing a gun at someone is torture."
Pointing a gun at a prisoner and threatening to kill them unless they give you information *is* torture. It is commonly refered to as a "mock execution" and, if you remember, was one of the things that caused the most suffering to the American hostages that Iran took from your embassy during their revolution.
Posted by: Rafar at June 26, 2007 03:37 AM (kkgmI)
21
Ouch. I think Rafar scored a hit with that one. Over the years, mock executions, when they were carried out with captives, have always been cited as examples of enhanced interrogation or X-treme Mistreatment or whatever the responsibility-dodging euphemism is now.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at June 26, 2007 08:47 AM (Rq904)
22
Pointing a gun at a prisoner and threatening to kill them unless they give you information *is* torture. It is commonly refered to as a "mock execution"
Wrong. Just pointing a gun at a prisoner and threatening to shoot is NOT a mock execution. Pointing a gun, then pulling the trigger on an empty chamber is.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at June 26, 2007 08:48 AM (oC8nQ)
23
"Pointing a gun, then pulling the trigger on an empty chamber is. "
You make an excellent point. Of such fine split hairs is good moral judgement made.
Would you say that revving the engine is equivalent to pulling the trigger on an empty chamber or not?
Why are we even talking about how much of this sort of crap is acceptable? Surely the only civilized answer is "none of it".
In fact it seems that the golden rule is the sensible guide here as in so many things. Maybe something like;
"If you consider an action, when performed on your own troops, countrymen or self, as a form of torture then it is torture."
Posted by: Rafar at June 26, 2007 09:58 AM (kkgmI)
24
Torture? Yea right.
We used to do this sort of thing for fun at the drop zone when it was too windy for drops. The only rough part was plowing through the fire ant mounds out in the landing area.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 26, 2007 10:05 AM (9yWTK)
25
Well put, Rafar.
And I'll keep repeating this until someone gives me a decent answer:
People who have interrogated POWs say torture does not work. The intel is not reliable. They do say that humane treatment and proven interrogation techniques
do work.
So why are we, as a nation, squandering our principles for barbaric behavior that
does not work?
I don't get it. I don't get it at all.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 26, 2007 10:09 AM (kxecL)
26
"We used to do this sort of thing for fun at the drop zone when it was too windy for drops."
What, to prisoners?
How would you feel if you watched a bunch of hollering Iranians doing it to a captured US marine? Comfortable with it?
Posted by: Rafar at June 26, 2007 10:10 AM (kkgmI)
27
"Would you say that revving the engine is equivalent to pulling the trigger on an empty chamber or not?"
"Of such fine split hairs is good moral judgement made."
To split another hair, does dragging by a vehicle equate with getting shot in the head? I would say that death is assured when putting a bullet in someone's brain while death is only a possibility when getting dragged by a Humvee. Is there a difference between the mental anguish of "This guy is not careful, he might kill me" and "This guy is definitely going to kill right now"?
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at June 26, 2007 10:42 AM (oC8nQ)
28
Is it only me who finds it ironic that when it comes to 'torture' its the liberals who see things as black and white while conservatives find room for nuance?
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at June 26, 2007 10:48 AM (oC8nQ)
29
"Is there a difference between the mental anguish of "This guy is not careful, he might kill me" and "This guy is definitely going to kill right now"?"
Dunno. Like I ask above, if an Iranian soldier was doing it to, say, your wife, to get her to reveal your location, would you consider it torture?
"Is it only me who finds it ironic that when it comes to 'torture' its the liberals who see things as black and white while conservatives find room for nuance?"
No fair, I've offered an equation based entirely on situational ethics. The Golden Rule is the very epitomy of shades-of-gray thinking.
(I don't have a very nuanced view on subjects like paedophilia either. Some subjects are simply beyond the pale.)
Posted by: Rafar at June 26, 2007 11:03 AM (kkgmI)
30
Is it only me who finds it ironic that when it comes to 'torture' its the liberals who see things as black and white while conservatives find room for nuance?
You misunderstand my take on this. I'm coming from a purely pragmatic position, my feelings about the morality of such things aside.
If torture (as defined by almost everyone in the world except Bush, Cheney, Gonzales and Addington), was effective, I could make an argument for it.
But it is not. So we engage in behavior that makes us a pariah in the eyes of most, corrupts our own people and we get nothing in return.
Practically speaking, this makes no sense.
But black and white? No, I see it more as win/lose, and you and I are not winning a thing.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 26, 2007 11:55 AM (kxecL)
31
To paraphrase the master of liberal nuance, I think it all depends on what your definition of what torture is. As far as I am concerned, torture is bad m'kay, you shouldn't do torture. But what exactly is torture? Is gouging out eyes torture? Yes. Are drafty prison cells torture? No. Using power drills on people? Yes. Using Eminem? No (well, probably not). Are mock executions torture? Yes. Was this an example of a mock torture? No.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at June 26, 2007 02:18 PM (oC8nQ)
32
Bohica,
OK, let's get down to it.
Would you call having your huevos fried by a jolt from a field phone? I wasn't in the room, but I was close enough to hear it.
Would you call standing a child on a frag's spoon, pin pulled, and questioning the parents? I wasn't there, but I know the men who had it done.
Would you call waterboarding torture? Other countries do, but Dick Cheney doesn't.
Would you call beatings torture? We've snatched up at least two innocent people so far, one Canadian and one German, renditioned (don't you just love that euphemism for kidnapping?) them to third countries and had them beaten. I'd call that torture, wouldn't you?
Doesn't it give you pause to know that the only GOP candidate to be against torture is John McCain? Now ask yourself what John McCain might know about torture that Mitt Romney does not.
And I keep coming back to my main question. We know these techniques do not work as well as humane treatment. This has been proven in WWII and most recently in Iraq when Task Force 145 caught Abu Musab al-Zarqawi - without using "enhanced" interrogation.
So, I'll keep asking until someone gives me a good answer: If these techniques don't work as well as humane treatment, why are we making them part of US law and making the US a pariah in the world? What are we getting for all that we've lost?
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 26, 2007 03:10 PM (kxecL)
33
David,
Is electro-shock torture? I would say yes.
OK, standing a kid on a grenade is not only torture, its incredibly stupid to the point of disbelief. That friend of yours would happen to be John Kerry?
Waterboarding is a pretty broad term that at this point has been so overused as to poison any discussion.
As for the effectiveness of torture, I think no one here has enough information or experience to comment.
Now here is my question. Is the THREAT of physical violence torture? That's really what we are dealing with here.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at June 26, 2007 03:52 PM (oC8nQ)
34
Is the threat enough? Ask the VC who stood in the door of the Huey at 800 feet.
Yes, it can be, if the interrogator is imaginative. Interrogators who are into this stuff will tell you that it's not the pain so much as the threat of pain.
Those parents whose little girl was standing on that spoon weren't hurt physically, but it was torture (and it was in Guatemala, not Vietnam.)
I think we do know enough to know that torture doesn't work. There are two articles I'd point you to: one is a paper written by Major Sherwood Moran, a WWII interrogator of Japanese. Here's a quote from the report:
“...successful interrogators all had one thing in common in the way they approached their subject. They were nice to them.”
Here's a guy questioning Japanese POWs during war and those are his conclusions. His report, by the way, is required reading for he Marine intel.
Then there's Bowden's piece in a recent Atlantic that detailed how they caught Zarqawi without torture and what the PR disaster at Abu Ghraib cost us.
So here are peope who do have experience, sixty years apart, and their conclusions are the same. Torture does not work.
Here's another piece from from Mark Bowden:
Then there are methods that, some people argue, fall short of torture. Called "torture lite," these include sleep deprivation, exposure to heat or cold, the use of drugs to cause confusion, rough treatment (slapping, shoving, or shaking), forcing a prisoner to stand for days at a time or to sit in uncomfortable positions, and playing on his fears for himself and his family. Although excruciating for the victim, these tactics generally leave no permanent marks and do no lasting physical harm.
The Geneva Convention makes no distinction: it bans any mistreatment of prisoners.
But we find the Geneva Convention "quaint." When we separate ourselves from the rest of the civilized world, we make ourselves suspect. When other nations believe the US has no principles, how are they to trust our foreign policy.
David Petraeus said that these techniques "violated American values."
And here's a quote from John McCain:
"...one of the things that sustained us as we underwent torture is the knowledge that, if we had our positions reversed, we would not impose that kind of treatment on them. It's not about the terrorists, it's about us. It's about what kind of country we are. The more physical pain you inflict on someone, the more they're going to tell you what they think you want to know...and if we agree to torture people, we will do ourselves great harm in the world."
So maybe you and I don't have the experience to judge torture, but I think Moran, the members of Task Force 145 and John McCain do.
Until I hear otherwise, I'm going to conclude that torture not only doesn't work, it's also counterproductive to our nation's security.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 26, 2007 04:40 PM (kxecL)
35
Terrenoire, if torture doesn't work, at least in the right circumstances/situations:
1) Let me strap you into a chair, take your ATM card (credit card, etc), and try to get your PIN number(s) from you. Explain how torture will not work on you.
2) I'm afraid that in Sen. McCain's case, if I understand correctly, torture appears to have worked at one point. I do believe that at least briefly, he complied with their wishes in response. He didn't convert or defect or have his brain washed, but he answered questions and, I think, confessed to something. This would matter more if the Vietnamese torture weren't more ideological in nature.
I doubt much important information - actionable intelligence - was gotten or expected to be gotten through this method. The Soviets did not grind out all those confessions at those show trials because they knew e.g. Kirov to be guilty but could not prove it. It was, broadly, a method of social control.
The US is not interested in massive networked frame-ups to cover up their own defalcations. They want to know where they guy is, where the bomb is, when the attack is. Tell 'em and they'll leave you alone.
3) The US, unlike al Queda, is not interested in torture as a terror tactic. "Kill one to terrify ten thousand!" is I think Sun Tzu or of like vintage. Insofar as we do whatever coercive method, even if we were doing horrible things far outside even your imagination, we are not trumpeting it; we are not dropping off dismembered bodies in Baathist hotbeds, showing decapitations on the Internet. Perhaps we do torture, but aren't really good at it.
4) To extend the premise of 3), if torture does not work, why do the entities who really practice torture (i.e., AQ, Baathists, Sunnis, Shiites, etc., etc., etc.) not seem to be clearly losing or being ineffective? Why is it not ineffective for them? Does it mean two different things for us and for them? Do they seek different objectives from it?
Or, Heaven forfend, is there a double standard in the coverage? (Or, if you like, is one lacking?) When the Japs and the Nazis in WWII committed their atrocities or brutalities - to the extent that it was covered - was it felt obligatory to illustrate that in some fashion we were just as bad?
Yes, Unit 731 performed biowar experiments on countless Chinese and even some American POWs, but the Marines used flamethrowers to clear out those island bunkers in the Pacific. Probably didn't rush over to give them first aid either, even though it might have been possible. Moral equivalence!
Yes, the SS lined up Allied POWs at Malmedy and shot them down. But we shot the guys that did it. Moral equivalence!
Right? How were we not just as bad as the Axis? After all, we beat them, so we must have been even more violent!
I'm just sayin'... a) you would never have done this to FDR; b) if you had tried, he woulda shut you up good.
This whole no-limits-on-the-media thing may be good, subjectively, for advancing morality or what you think is right, but it objectively sucks for getting the US what we want done in this war.
If I believe that the best thing isn't for total media control - to include anything up to and including censorship, detention, interrogation, torture and even summary execution of any uncooperative journalists at will - over the battlespace, it is an entirely theoretical and idealistic belief with no evidence supporting it. Worse than any theism you can decry.
The UK has an Official Secrets Act. The British have D-notices. To emulate them wouldn't be emulating barbarians. How useful would those tools be?
Don't blame yourself if you don't know what I'm talking about, btw. My Media and Society prof at NYU didn't know what a D-notice was either; and from the greasy little bugger's accent, if he didn't learn English in Scotland (or the North of England) he learned it from a Scot (or a Northerner).
You know how there aeem to be no taboos, no limits anymore? Well, there's one, it would appear. You can no longer say "Shut up!" Especially to a newscritter.
Posted by: nichevo at June 26, 2007 09:23 PM (Ak+g8)
36
"Is the threat enough? Ask the VC who stood in the door of the Huey at 800 feet."
Sorry thats more than a threat. It has to do physics. 800 feet in the air and you alot of potential energy, which can very easily be turned into kinetic energy. A rope tied to your foot and a running truck has no potential energy at all.
Posted by: jbiccum at June 26, 2007 09:49 PM (Rd4s4)
37
Even better, nichevo:
Let's strap David to a chair and ask him for an ATM number he doesn't remember, but that we think he probably does.
Or for an ATM number when he doesn't have an ATM card.
Or for some information that he really, really doesn't want to tell you, but that you can't check as easily as trying out his PIN number, so there's more incentive to simply end the torture by making something up instead of actually giving up the goods.
Hey, let's strap him to a chair and interrogate him until he dies, thereby negating immediate information and all future information.
Let's torture him until his little brother decides to join the jihad.
Let's continue to torture him even after several years have passed and any information he might once have had is irrelevant.
Are those the effective uses of torture you're talking about?
Posted by: Doc Washboard at June 26, 2007 11:00 PM (Rq904)
38
Your question answers itself. I said *in some cases* it is potentially effective.
I certainly have no reason to think that you, for instance, have any sort of character capable of getting you to keep your mouth shut under sufficient coercion. I could probably get you to sell your mother by switching your coffee for decaf.
However, a better person than you (oh, I don't mean me, let's not get huffy - look into Solzhenitsyn, thousands of examples) might indeed be able to endure pain, humiliation, death, the infliction of same on loved ones, etc. This is enough to demonstrate that torture should not be used in a broad-brush approach.
Which I have said, if you had been listening.
As for the rest:
I am not unconvinceable. Neither are the interrogators.
But if the wallet was found in your hip pocket, and the pictures are all of you, and the curve of it fits your ass, then I bet the Visa in it, with the same name as the driver's license, is yours.
If the card is yours, then either you have the PIN or you know the SSN, mother's maiden name, favorite color, etc., needed to retrieve it. (If you have amnesia or brain damage, then there are probably other tipoffs to that.) These things can be checked - where did your mother go to college? What year? Let's get a yearbook. SSN? I bet somewhere there is a database of those. Etc., etc.
If it is not yours, then where did you get it? Where does he live? Where do we find him? Etc., etc.
If there is something he really wants to hold onto - well then, he ain't innocent, is he? That's what really turns your stomach, right? The idea that we might be hurting some little lamb in the wrong place in the wrong time, or denounced by a vengeful ex, or some such?
Once we have established guilt, a la "Yeah I know, and I ain't telling," then your conscience can rest easy on this score. Doesn't mean we get the intel, but at least you can quit whining.
As for killing him prematurely - yes a danger, and yes to be avoided, but if he's so resistant, perhaps he was never going to give it up. But by all means if it might do some good, save him to work on some more later...think up a psyop...find relatives, pretend you're going to hand him over to the Mossad or the Mukharabat or the Savak.
Incidentally, I have no problem with some attempts at bribery, bamboozlement, religious conversion, dialogue of all sorts. They all have their place. However none are universally effective any more than torture is universally effective.
As for his little brother? Gee, let's announce his detention in all the papers so that little brother can know this has happened. What a good idea! Hey, maybe the little brother would like to visit. Hey...maybe the little brother, suitably displayed (e.g. wired for electroshock), would be convincing to the big brother.
Or for the little bro to watch, or to receive the mutilated body and then the family to be billed for the electricity, the bullets, etc. - it might inspire him to anger; it might frighten him into submission.
Hey, it worked for Saddam, didn't it?
That's the point - if torture didn't work, how did Saddam hold power? Love?
As for information getting old...you never know; some things never change.
Torture isn't a panacea - it's a tool in the toolbox. Is that the straw man you've been beating on all night? Let's set that mother ablaze right now. Don't expect certainty. Who told you that you could expect certainty? You can't even expect that Burger King can get your order right every time!
Posted by: nichevo at June 26, 2007 11:30 PM (Ak+g8)
39
"Is the threat enough? Ask the VC who stood in the door of the Huey at 800 feet."
That is not a threat of violence, that is a threat of death.
This is turning into a pointless straw man battle. To me we are talking about 'interrogation techniques' like the 'belly slap', the peroneal strike(aka the dead leg), and obnoxious music. To other this is about 'torture techniques' like drowning, electroshock and shoving people out of helicopters.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at June 27, 2007 06:35 AM (oC8nQ)
40
Bohica,
I'd say tying a man's ankle to the bumper of a truck and threatening to drag him is a threat of death. So the VC in the Huey and the man in Afhanistan are not dissimilar.
You can disgaree with me. You can refute my conclusions, but don't accuse me of using straw man tactics because that's calling me dishonest and I've been nothing but respectful to you and your position. I just think you're wrong.
You seem to think interrogation techniques are benign. I'm here to tell you that they are not. I've given you examples from personal experience that you casually dismiss. These are techniques we, and our allies, have used for decades in Latin America. These are not straw man arguments. These are real world examples and they're more than a belly slap.
These enhanced interrogation techniques you embrace are counterproductive and reprehensible. McCain says they're wrong. Petraeus says they're wrong. Moran says they're wrong. The rest of the civilized world says they're wrong. So how, in the face of such testimony, can you keep insisting that you know better?
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 27, 2007 12:29 PM (kxecL)
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Oh please.
If you can get over it with a long nap and a good cry, it isn't torture.
Posted by: bkw at June 27, 2007 04:21 PM (bRLba)
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I hate to be legalistic instead of emotional but "specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering" would seem to fit the bill here. That doesn't rank it alongside connecting a car battery to a guy's testicles but it doesn't have to. I will also say this: Doing it in front of the media was just plain stupid and I'd punish the soldiers for that alone. When the hell are we going to realize that these wars will be won or lost in the media as much or more than on the battlefield?
Posted by: Michael Fumento at June 27, 2007 05:28 PM (uZVcT)
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How would you feel if you watched a bunch of hollering Iranians doing it to a captured US marine? Comfortable with it?
I was gassed with CS at Ft. Dix and the guys who do SERE are water boarded. So yea, I'm OK with it.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 27, 2007 07:28 PM (G2DEp)
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"So yea, I'm OK with it."
We'll remember that then. When dealing with captured US personel, you think that waterboarding them is OK.
Posted by: Rafar at June 28, 2007 01:15 AM (P0E2s)
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Its a Straw Man because you are lumping in things that happened decades ago. I don't know when exactly those things happened in Guatamala, but I am guessing sometime in the 80s. We should be talking about what specifically happened here, not actions that happened in Vietnam as military we have now has almost nothing in common with the military back then. If you want to believe that threatening to drag someone with a car is a mock execution, that's fine, but why don't we leave the Viet Cong out of the equation, m'kay?
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at June 28, 2007 10:43 AM (oC8nQ)
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Damn the Reality, Full Meme Ahead!
Undaunted by the facts, Glenn Greenwald attempts to shore up his demonstrably false claim that, "...the enemy is referred to, almost exclusively now, as 'Al Qaeda.'"
with an update to his
already debunked post:
Posts from other bloggers who previously noticed this same trend demonstrate how calculated it is and pinpoint its obvious genesis. At Kos, BarbInMD noted back in May that Bush's rhetoric on Iraq had palpably shifted, as he began declaring that "Al-Qaida is public enemy No. 1 in Iraq." The same day, she noted that Bush "mentioned Al-Qaida no less than 27 times" in his Iraq speech. As always, a theme travels unmolested from Bush's mouth into the unexamined premises of our newspapers' front pages.
Separately, Ghillie notes in comments that the very politically cognizant Gen. Petraeus has been quite noticeably emphasizing "the battle against Al Qaeda" in interviews for months. And yesterday, ProfMarcus analyzed the top Reuters article concerning American action in Iraq -- headline: "Al Qaeda fight to death in Iraq bastion: U.S" -- and noted that "al qaeda is mentioned 13 times in a 614 word story" and that "reading the article, you would think that al qaeda is not only everywhere in iraq but is also behind all the insurgent activity that's going on."
Interestingly, in addition to the one quoted above, there is another long article in the Post today, this one by the reliable Thomas Ricks, which extensively analyzes the objectives and shortcomings in our current military strategy. Ricks himself strategy never once mentions Al Qaeda.
Finally, the lead story of the NYT today -- in its first two paragraphs -- quotes Gen. Odierno as claiming that the 2004 battle of Falluja was aimed at capturing "top Qaeda leaders in the city." But Michael Gordon himself, back in 2004, published a lengthy and detailed article about the Falluja situation and never once mentioned or even alluded to "Al Qaeda," writing only about the Iraqi Sunni insurgents in that city who were hostile to our occupation (h/t John Manning). The propagandistic transformation of "insurgents" into "Al Qaeda," then, applies not only to our current predicament but also to past battles as well, as a tool of rank revisionism (hence, it is now officially "The Glorious 2004 Battle against Al-Qaeda in Falluja").
You'll note that Greenwald's supporting "evidence" for his comes in the form of links to liberal blogs, letters to Salon.com, selected articles from the Washington Post, and the New York Times, and yet, he completely fails to address the fact that Multi-National Corps-Iraq's own press releases debunk his claims on a daily basis.
Sadly, like a dog returning to re-ingest its own vomit, Greenwald cannot get enough of his own rotting bile. Greenwald continues to insist that there is a conspiracy by the government, the world media, and the U.S. military to turn all enemy forces in Iraq into al Qaeda, and stands by his claim that:
...every time one of the top military commanders describes our latest operations or quantifies how many we killed, the enemy is referred to, almost exclusively now, as "Al Qaeda."
Again, this daft claim is hardly supported by the facts, and is easily refuted by the military's own primary means of information dissemination about the War in Iraq, the MNF-I PAO press release system.
Today, Monday, June 25, MNF-I has 13 listed press releases. Of those, one is a duplicate post, while the remaining 12 press releases break down enemy activity in Iraq for the day as follows:
- four releases discussing Sunni insurgent activity;
- one release discussing Shia militia "Secret Cells;"
- four where a specific group enemy group is not named;
- ...and only two where Al Qaeda is mentioned.
Far from making the enemy "almost exclusively" al Qaeda, MNF-I PAO's releases for the day link less than 17% of their stories to al Qaeda activity.
Greenwald ignores the key source that would prove or disprove his "all of our enemy's are being labelled al Qaeda" meme, which are the archives of press releases, of press briefings, Pentagon briefings, daily news, and feature stories from the U.S. military, which make it clear that al Qaeda is not the only extremist group being fought by Coalition and Iraqi forces in Iraq.
Instead, he bumbles forward, doggedly bucking reality, insisting upon some grand conspiracy being orchestrated by the White House, international news services, the American press, and the United States military to repaint all extremist activity in Iraq as being orchestrated by al Qaeda.
As the links above clearly show, Multi-National Corps-Iraq is failing to uphold their end of this alleged conspiracy by consistently citing other extremists groups in their daily press releases and news stories.
Whoever is in charge of this grand conspiracy (perhaps the Freemasons? Maybe the Illuminati? Yale's secretive Skull & Bones Society? Boy Scout Troop 111 in Arlington, Virginia?) should also castigate the media, as they are failing to insist that everything in Iraq is "all al Qaeda, all the time," including this story in the Boston Globe where a suicide bomber targeting Sunni tribal sheiks aligned against al Qaeda was the perfect opportunity to flog this claim, if such a conspiracy was indeed "on." Sadly, the media is failing to uphold their end of the bargain.
Glenn Greenwald seems doggedly intent on descending into his own brand of "trutherism" regarding a grand government, media and military conspiracy to re-brand the Iraq War.
In doing so, he may finally get the notoriety he so desperately craves, if not for the reasons he'd hoped.
Update: I hardly find it surprising that the empty heads at Editor & Publisher lap up Greenwald's bile, with nary a thought to whether or not it's true.
Considering that E&P editor Greg Mitchell has his own track record of manufacturing news and indeed, wrote a post advocating that the media should attempt to undermine the Presidency, I'm not exactly shocked they'd grasp at any straw they could to support their nakedly partisan political objectives.
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1
Wait a minute. I thought Greenwald said establishment media types are acting as stenographers, repeating the propaganda about the unitary enenmy Bush has dictated our military use. Obviously there has been a breakdown in communication somewhere along the way. Where could it be?
My vote based on past experience is on Glenn's side, because the meme is a fabricated device to cast doubt once again on the honesty of the administration and our activities in Iraq. That is one meme on which Glenn has been 100% consistent, truth be damned.
Posted by: daleyrocks at June 25, 2007 11:03 AM (0pZel)
2
How exactly are you refuting what Greenwald says?
Both you and Greenwald are saying the same thing: that much of the MSM reporting about the presence of al Qaeda is contrary to fact.
P.S. Hate to state the obvious, but most people don't get their information from MNF press releases; they get it from the mainstream media. And that should concern your readers.
Posted by: K Ashford at June 25, 2007 01:06 PM (mO+Pe)
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Clearly the toughest insurgency to defeat is the deaf, dumb, and blind, liberal media. If anyone can crack them (besides Chuck Norris), Gen. Petraeus can, while they're kicking and screaming like babies if he has to.
Posted by: Bacchus at June 25, 2007 01:16 PM (HUWtL)
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K Ashford: They are most certainly not saying the same thing. Glenn Grenwald claims that the enemy in Iraq is almost exclusively referred to as Al Queda. Confederate Yankee notes first that Al Queda is indeed in Iraq and is subject to understandable special interest when planning and conducting military operations, and secondly the the claim by Glenn Grenwald does not reflect the reality in the reporting from either the military or the press agencies when you actually examine the data. In fact, Al Queda is explicitly referenced not exclusively, but only a fraction of the time. What fraction of the time Greenwald has not attempted to quantify, but Confederate Yankee has.
In fact, Glenn Grenwald's claim contridicts itself when he references the many press reports which do not even mention Al Queda. In doing so and by claiming that those that don't mention Al Queda are reliable but those that do are not, Grenwald reveals his real agenda which is that he does not believe Al Queda should be mentioned at all. In other words, even though anti-Al Queda operations are underway, and even though these operations consitute only a fraction of the reporting, he believes that any such reporting (even just 17%) is too much because such reporting, although factual, reveals too much that is contrary to Mr. Grenwald's agend.
And further, it's ridiculous to claim that Reuters or the AP is somehow pro-Bush and is going along with some conspiracy to misname Iraqi insurgent groups Al Queda. The truth is simple. Al Queda is in Iraq. They are a target of special interest, and they are behind much of the most spectacular multi-casualty attacks on Iraqi civilians that do make the headlines (and are intended to do so). Thus, at least some of the time, a press release or news report will mention Al Queda in conjunction with these attacks or in conjunction with operations against them. That there are other insurgent groups that are not Al Queda is a fact which demonstratably remains both in the militaries press releases and in the popular press.
Posted by: celebrim at June 25, 2007 01:26 PM (Qnlt+)
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I thought it might be good to remind people again of Joshua Micah Marshall's flack work on behalf of Ken Pollack back in 2002, *before* 1) Marshall had been advised that Clinton's Iraq policy was correct if handled by Gore, evil if executed by Bush, and, 2) Pollack got so scared that he wouldn't be able to get a job in the Kerry administration that he started trying to pretend he had *not* written "The Gathering Storm". His book on why it was necessary to invade Iraq and overthrow Saddam was reviewed by Marshall for Washington Monthly. The laudatory review is here: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0211.marshall.html
This is actually one of the better flip-flops I have seen. Imagine having a principled stalwart like Pollack (his Iraq convictions lasted for about a year after his book) running US foreign policy.
Of course, both men were right back then. But that was before the puppetmasters had inflicted them with amnesia.
Posted by: Kurmudge at June 25, 2007 01:29 PM (lDbgI)
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CY,
This one of the sorriest post I've seen on this blog to date. Greenwald is simply pointing out the obvious to anyone that's been paying attention to the news lately, there has been a perceptible shift in attribution to al Queda. You want me to source that? Turn on your TeeVee for a half an hour. At any rate, K Ashfords right.
...and I wouldn't be bagging on Greg Mitchell with a
track record of your own that far exceeds his supposed transgressions.
Posted by: Frederick at June 25, 2007 01:38 PM (TcNVg)
7
K Ashford said: "Both you and Greenwald are saying the same thing..."
Greenwald is clearly trying to place the misnomers at the feet of the US Military Command (see previous Confederate Yankee post http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/231205.php) and the Bush Administration, while Confederate Yankee is placing it at the feet of the largely misinformed and unreading public, the MSM, and GREENWALD himself.
If Greenwald is going to blame the US Command, he needs to CITE THE US COMMAND, which is exactly what Yankee is doing here. Sorry K, but you missed your mark and missed it big.
Posted by: REN at June 25, 2007 01:39 PM (dzI/I)
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More entertainingly, our favorite piece of talking footwear has chosen a rather poor example to defend his claim by mentioning Fallujah, a place that actually was crawling with Al-Qaeda and Al-Qaeda linked fighters. All the forces there were not members, but almost all were allied with and dominated by Al Qaeda at the time.
Perversely, the disconnect between the various Sunni groups and Al Qaeda should be looked on as a favorable sign by the Sock Puppet, since the widening split that has developed has been an important goal, and a key behind the turnaround in Anbar (where Fallujah lies.) If Al Qaeda is not such a large problem, one might ask oneself why when the local Sheiks turned against them the province showed such dramatic progress? All of which Mr. Greenwald cannot get himself to admit, because the mess that Iraq is does not suffice for his purposes, there can be no positives, nothing but unrelieved gloom and evil conspiracies.
Posted by: Lance at June 25, 2007 01:48 PM (9fQ4G)
9
I see Gleen the All-Knowing Sock-Puppeteer is embarassing himself again.
How would a patriot support the troops in time of war? By calling them lying shills for the administration in total contradiction of the facts, apparently. Hey, anything to advance the partisan cause! In the mind of Greenwald and his fans (real and imaginary), the only real war is the one against Bush.
What a traitorous, moronic douchebag of a hack. There's a special circle of Hell awaiting this guy.
Posted by: TallDave at June 25, 2007 01:59 PM (oyQH2)
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I see Gleen the All-Knowing Sock-Puppeteer is embarassing himself again.
How would a patriot support the troops in time of war? By calling them lying shills for the administration in total contradiction of the facts, apparently. Hey, anything to advance the partisan cause! In the mind of Greenwald and his fans (real and imaginary), the only real war is the one against Bush.
What a traitorous, moronic douchebag of a hack. There's a special circle of Hell awaiting this guy.
Posted by: TallDave at June 25, 2007 02:01 PM (oyQH2)
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Freemasons? S & B? No, CY, it's clear that the liars of the Left are trying to immanentize the aeschaton.
Posted by: Mike at June 25, 2007 06:18 PM (h346G)
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sorry, but you have your facts wrong.
among 21 press releases on the 25th, there are
al-qaeda........ 7
terrorists...... 5
IED cell........ 2
insurgents...... 5
(nothing)....... 2
http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=category§ionid=1&id=4&Itemid=21
Posted by: sod at June 26, 2007 08:24 AM (e1Cg2)
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sod, at the time I posted, those numbers were 100% accurate. That does not mean I was wrong, that means they added nine more releases after I posted.
Still, for giggles, let's use your numbers (which I can't verify right now; their site is screwy at the moment).
If MNF-I did mention seven contacts with al Qaeda out of 21 stories, that means that on this particular day, then they said that a whopping
third of enemy actions where attributed to al Qaeda, and this during a series of operations
targetting al Qaeda.
Glenn Ryan Wilson Thomas Ellers Rick Ellensburg Greenwald's claim that the military is referring to all attacks in Iraq as "almost exclusively now" coming from al Qaeda is still handily debunked, no matter how you slice it.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 26, 2007 08:47 AM (9y6qg)
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our numbers don t add up. you had 12, i had 21. the difference is only 9, but i added 5 al-qaeda and 5 EXTRA "terrorist" reports.
a few of the reports simply mention events, that can t be blamed on al-qaeda, so they aren t. you d need to disregard those from the total number.
and this during a series of operations targetting al Qaeda.
and this is the real problem. why do you think this operation is targeting al-qaeda alone? no baathists? no angry sunnis? no shii death sqaud in that region?
you re making exactly that wrong claim, the "left " are talking about!
my feeling is, that these press reports are more acurate than talking points of politicians and commanders.
but even they call it al-qaeda, if a neighbor said it was al-qaeda. and terrorists, if a civilian got hurt.
that leaves a stray shot in sunni/shiite heartland for "insurgent activity".
Posted by: sod at June 26, 2007 04:33 PM (JukHi)
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June 23, 2007
SockPuppet Strikes Out Again
Glenn Wilson McEllensburg has suddenly become a terrorism expert, and can't wait to get a
conspiracy off his chest:
Josh Marshall publishes an e-mail from a reader who identifies what is one of the most astonishing instances of mindless, pro-government "reporting" yet:
It's a curious thing that, over the past 10 - 12 days, the news from Iraq refers to the combatants there as "al-Qaida" fighters. When did that happen?
Until a few days ago, the combatants in Iraq were "insurgents" or they were referred to as "Sunni" or "Shia'a" fighters in the Iraq Civil War. Suddenly, without evidence, without proof, without any semblance of fact, the US military command is referring to these combatants as "al-Qaida".
Welcome to the latest in Iraq propaganda.
That the Bush administration, and specifically its military commanders, decided to begin using the term "Al Qaeda" to designate "anyone and everyeone we fight against or kill in Iraq" is obvious. All of a sudden, every time one of the top military commanders describes our latest operations or quantifies how many we killed, the enemy is referred to, almost exclusively now, as "Al Qaeda."
Actually, that isn't obvious, Glenn. What is obvious is your own industrial-strength ignorance, which apparently seems to be quite contagious among the more irrational actors of the far left.
The reason that we've been reading more over the past few days about attacks directed against al Qaeda—more than Sunni insurgents, more than Shia militiamen—is that elements of al Qaeda have been specifically targeted by U.S. and Iraqi forces in Operation Arrowhead Ripper in Diyala Province, in Operation Commando Eagle southwest of Baghdad, Operation Marne Torch southeast of Baghdad, and in other operations throughout the country.
If Glen Greenwald or Josh Marshall weren't above a Sullivaneque "floating of a theory" by a conspiracy-minded reader (to excuse their own inherent distrust of our military, of course), they might have bothered to recognize, or God forbid, research a few key facts.
The first of those facts is that we are in offensive operations surrounding and targeting al Qaeda cells specifically, often with information provided by their former allies in the Sunni insurgency.
Second, the military is consistently releasing stories about contacts with both Sunni insurgents and Shia militiamen, and our military is calling them such as they contact them.
Let's got back "10-12 days" and see what Multi-National Force-Iraq has been saying in their press releases. According to Greenwald, the enemy the military talks about is "almost exclusively now" al Qaeda.
And yet, when we go back 12 days to Monday, June 11, we find that in MNF-I's three combat-related press releases, only one addresses al Qaeda. The following day, U.S. forces raided an insurgent weapons cache, came under attack from an insurgent VBIED, and engaged "enemy fire" coming from a mosque, without ever specifying who that was.
On Wednesday, June 13, MNF-I published 17 press releases. Of those a Grand total of four mentioned al Qaeda. Five others mentioned Sunni insurgents, five more couldn't specify the attacker, and one wrote about Iranian-affiliated Shia militias.
I invite Greenwald, Marshall, and others who seem to like this meme to do their own digging through MNF-I's archive of press releases, where they'll find more days very similar to this.
As the offensive operations cited above--part of an overall operation called Phantom Thunder--are specifically targeting al Qaeda cells, we will be reading about those terrorists that our soldiers are directly targeting. But as accounts from Saturday show that we are still encountering Shia militias and Sunni insurgents even today, the theory being aired by Greenwald and his conspiracy-minded followers is shown—with only passing research—to be complete and utter bunk.
Update: Undaunted by the facts, Greenwald attempts to shore up his flimsy argument by citing other liberal conspiracy theorists and letters to Salon.com, forcing yet another debunking of his claims.
Reality. He should check into it sometime.
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1
Their neatly crafted fantasy is crashing on the hard rocks of reality.
When the 1920's are working with us now to zap'em, its pretty clear that there IS indeed a distinct AQ presence...much to the despair of the leftists.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 23, 2007 03:21 PM (9yWTK)
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What's so funny is that the *news* this "reader" gets, especially the *news* from Iraq, is from the *News Media*, and when these organizations report who we're fighting against they often substitute their personally preferred terms over whatever the Government might use, unless it is a quote. such as UPI's "guerillas".
You're right on target with your capsuling of MNF press releases, CY, though I don't think you emphasize enough the fact that in the southern belts and in many of the Baghdad district, the MNF identifies Madhi not Al Qaeda.
Don't bother scanning the actual *news* that "reader" or his meme trumpeters get, let them do it if they really think they can support their drivel. They can't. A flip to using Al Qaeda hasn't happened. Just look at typical *news* weasel Richard Oppel's brief story in his own words in the NYT today. Not a mention of Al Qaeda.
The left has no grasp on reality.
Posted by: Dusty at June 23, 2007 05:30 PM (GJLeQ)
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Greenwald has become increasingly desperate of late trying to turn light into gloom with respect to Iraq. It's clear that he either doesn't read much on the subject or wilfully ignores material which is out there relating to our operations against Mookie's Militias and the Sunnis. He's turned into a stenographer for Tehran with respect to Iran's involvement in Iraq. He views anything said by anyone from Iran as fact, while anything said from the U.S. as unconfirmed, third-hand supposition.
He can't write anything these days without beclowing himself. What would a patriot do? If Glenn Greenwald still considers himself a patriot he should recognize that he's gone over the edge and hang it up for a while.
Posted by: daleyrocks at June 23, 2007 07:25 PM (0pZel)
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Greenwald and his ilk have basically become modern day Lord Haw Haw's pimping for the enemy.
Not only gone over the edge, but gone over to the other side. This is basically "terminal stage" BDS.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 23, 2007 08:55 PM (9yWTK)
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GG should avoid cameras for a few days, or at least until the imprint of your keyboard on his face fades away.
Posted by: ErkW at June 24, 2007 01:52 AM (BMyIZ)
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Gotta admire a thorough debunking! Fortunately, on a day to day basis, all it usually takes is actually following Greenwald's own links.
Posted by: JM Hanes at June 24, 2007 03:48 AM (bKtAF)
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CY - a good example of why systematic observation is better than casually noticing something unusual and building a theory around it.
The example could be translated into terms the lefties might understand: you are walking down the street. 19 ethnic minority people pass you by peacefully so you don't really notice them. The 20th mugs you. You notice him. You draw the conclusion that ethnic minorities are "almost exclusively" violent criminals. That's Greenwald's logic here.
Posted by: PB at June 24, 2007 07:44 AM (7FGDT)
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Speaking of Josh Marshall, he ran a contest a while back looking for examples where the administration actually called into question their opponents patriotism.
I never did see a follow up. Probably because being accused of questioning somebody's patriotism by one side in the debate is not the same thing as actually doing it.
Posted by: moptop at June 24, 2007 07:48 AM (AbzfF)
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I agree with whatever Glenn Greenwald says.
Posted by: Ima Pseudonym at June 24, 2007 08:58 AM (neoiq)
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Greenwald and his ilk have now gone from denying ANY kind of connection between Al Qaeda and other Islamists, to denying any connection between Al Qaeda and itself.
Posted by: CK MacLeod at June 24, 2007 09:46 AM (dvksz)
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The conspiracy line of thought only works if you first believe Al Queda to be a creation of the Bush Administration to focus the country's ire upon post-911 (to justify occupying Iraq for its oil, instead of occupying ANWR for its oil I guess).
Posted by: Neo at June 24, 2007 10:28 AM (HsB92)
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Neo: Everyone knows Rove masterminded 911 to perk up moronic Bush's tanking poll numbers, Bush lied us into war to clinch his 2004 re-election.
Posted by: ic at June 24, 2007 11:16 AM (NM7Uv)
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LOTS of truth here the comments are better than the post
The left has no grasp on reality.
yes
He views anything said by anyone from Iran as fact, while anything said from the U.S. as unconfirmed, third-hand supposition.
YES
Not only gone over the edge, but gone over to the other side. This is basically "terminal stage" BDS.
YES!!! he hates W so much hes pulling for the ENEMY
dont know for sure but rumor is that he lives in brazil with an arab BOYFRIEND
AMERICAN??? maybe NOT
Posted by: Karl at June 24, 2007 11:42 AM (5zEhw)
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ItÂ’s relatively straight forward, when the Iraqi insurgents were fighting alongside Al Qaeda they werenÂ’t sharing information about the nature of the insurgency with the newspapers. The media outlets had two sources for their information, military sources and Iraqi news stringers. After the WMD flap the media thought it could disregard military sources as biased and unreliable. The Iraqi news stringers were almost always Sunni and often had ties to SaddamÂ’s old information ministry. The role of Al Qaeda was downplayed as minor foreign segment of the insurgency that didnÂ’t have a leadership role and didnÂ’t have real ties to the real Al Qaeda anyway.
A lot of the local insurgents have flipped sides or are now in Jordan waiting it out. They are now available to the press and they are talking. The accounts that they are telling are consistent with each other and with what military intelligence sources have been saying all along. The talking heads and institutional sources back in the US can say what they want, but they are uniformly contradicted by local Iraqis on the ground. The Reporters on the ground for the major newspapers are now calling them Al Qaeda.
Al Qaeda always had a central role in the insurgency ever since Fallujah in 2004. When Fallujah flared the Sunni tribes of Anbar joined up in a loose coalition under the Al Qaeda banner. There has been a progression over the last years of how Al Qaeda has largely taken over much of the insurgency. If you want to know what Al Qaeda has been doing in Anbar province go ask people in Anbar. Likewise, we will get to hear all about whatÂ’s been going down in Diyala province once reporters can interview the people there.
Posted by: Neo-andertal at June 24, 2007 12:35 PM (i5gs6)
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Come on!
If we just give them Czechoslavkia, they'll be satisfied! We can achieve peace in our time, we just have to be flexible.
Posted by: Dirk DIggler at June 24, 2007 04:03 PM (iFo3G)
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I note he's posted some updates in obvious defense of his thesis. And yet these are some darned shallow defenses. The hazard of such a tack is that one gains a reputation for freighting gossamer implications with the weight of full-blown alarums. It's just ridiculous.
Posted by: rasqual at June 24, 2007 10:16 PM (fwvXX)
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Wait a sec. Who's Glenn Greenwald again? Some sort of self-stroking sock puppet?!?!!? And we depend on him, why?
Oh yeah, that self-referential partner, or whatever. Oh, Glenn Greenwald, he's a *wealth* of *hot* *spurting* *liquid* knowledge about Iraq. Ummm, good.
Cough. A-hem.
Posted by: Patrick Carroll at June 24, 2007 11:38 PM (Ejb+P)
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It was easier to get Iraqi insurgents to join in the fight against al-Qaeda than democrats.
Posted by: Bacchus at June 25, 2007 10:34 AM (HUWtL)
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GG writes smart stuff, you are a moron. This is strongly supported by your random spittle specked flailings and the weirdo writing of inadvertantly self-disclosing me-tooer freaks like Patrick Carroll. Seriously Patty wtf is up with that post, it's more content free than this one. Just had to release some hot sticky tension. If GG wasn't gay and hadn't made that one slip wtf would you have to say about him? Hard to see the merits of your arguments sunk so deep in to the morass of your hate.
Keep it up though your support and the support of your shut-in readers has done wonders for the GOP and the fictional GWOT.
Shaboodi Shaboodi
Posted by: shaboodi shaboodi at June 25, 2007 02:07 PM (k/JYL)
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June 22, 2007
No Conflict of Interest Here: Liberal Talk Show Founder Seeks To Profit From Center for American Progress Attack on Conservative Talk Radio
Back before he was governor of Minnesota and was still prowling the squared-circle as the villainous heel "The Body," Jesse Ventura used to growl, "Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat!"
That maxim seems to have been taken to heart (and wallet) by the progressive Center For American Progress (CAP), which released a document called "The Structural Imbalance of Political Talk Radio," which advocates the return of the failed "Fairness Doctrine" in talk radio, in an attempt to censor and stifle the dominance of conservative talkers.
What the Center For American Progress won't tell you is that one of the authors of the liberally-biased "report," Paul Woodhull, is a founding partner of not one, but two liberal talk radio show companies, Big Eddie Radio Productions, LLC (BERP), which produces The Ed Shultz Show, and Bill Press Partners, LLC, producers of The Bill Press Show.
It was perhaps fitting that this self-serving conflict of interest was discovered by Mark Levin, a conservative talk radio show host in his blog at National Review Online.
If Congress reintroduces the so-called "Fairness Doctrine," as CAP suggests, broadcasters will be forced to balance their airtime between conservative talk radio shows and liberal talk radio shows. There are only a handful of successful, established liberal talk radio shows from which broadcasters who have to choose from, and Woodhull has a financial stock in two of those.
This liberal organization is not only attempting to regulate free speech for political gain, but also, in the case of at least Woodhull, they intend to profit from the loss of your First Amendment rights as well.
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I'm not getting how this is a conflict of interest.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at June 22, 2007 01:06 PM (61Tmx)
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Perhaps I should start by defining
a conflict of interst:
A conflict of interest is a situation in which someone in a position of trust, such as a lawyer, a politician, or an executive or director of a corporation, has competing professional and/or personal interests. Such competing interests can make it difficult to fulfill his or her duties fairly...
...More generally, conflict of interest can be defined as any situation in which an individual or corporation (either private or governmental) is in a position to exploit a professional or official capacity in some way for their personal or corporate benefit.
This definition was pulled from Wikipedia, which defines this particular type of conflict of interest as "Self-dealing."
Woodhull is attempting to use the public policy platform of CAP in general and this document in specific to advocate for a change of laws from which he stands to potentially profit financially as a founding partner of both The Ed Shultz Show and The Bill Press Show.
Perhaps an anology would help: This is similar to an oil company executive authoring a report pressuring Congress to lower auto industry fuel mileage standards, or to drop fuel taxes, hoping that one or either action would result in the sale of more oil to consumers.
Or it inversion helps, imagine this unlikely alternative-reality scenario:
Liberals such as Ed Shultz, Allen Colmes, Rosie O'Donnell, and Al Franken dominate the American talk radio market, occupying something like 90% of talk radio airplay.
John Doe, who is the founding producer of We Love Rush, LLC, and Sean is Right, LLC (two of the largest fish in a small conservative talk radio pond), co-authors a report from a conservative special interst group calling for Congress to re-issue the "Fairness Doctrine," which would force stations to carry more conservative talk radio shows (like Rush and Sean) to balance out their airplay, or simply force stations away from running political radio for another format.
As talk radio draws in a substantial portion of their audience from political shows and these show's audiences drive their advertising, they are far more likely to keep their proven format as intact as possible, cutting some of their lower performing liberal radio shows and adding the more successful conservative shows if forced to adopt the Doctrine.
John, as a founding producer of both Rush and Sean, would potentially profit handsomely form this situation, as his two proven stars would more likely be picked by stations who don't want to risk completely dumping the poltical talk radio format.
In this case, John Doe is engaged in a clear case of self-dealing. Woodhull is a real-world example of this same kind of behavior.
The best way to remove conflicts of interests is to simply avoid them entirely; as Woodhull can easily be proven to have financial stakes in the success or growth of liberal talk radio, he never should have been invited to be an author on the report.
Further, Woodhull could and should have recused himself from taking part in authoring the report, as he should have recognized the conflict of interest, even if others didn't.
Does that clear things up?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 22, 2007 02:11 PM (9y6qg)
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My local talk radio station, WABC, perhaps made Rush and Sean the syndicated stars they are today, but they tried liberal hosts over and over again who just didn't get ratings. If you have something the public wants in a free economy, you don't need government assistance.
Posted by: Tom TB at June 22, 2007 03:37 PM (2nDll)
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Doesn't matter 1 frigging bit. I can listen to Rush, Hannity & Pat White on WOWO, then tune over to a music station while the libs waste what little money they've not received from government handouts polluting the air waves. What's the difference? Even their own supporters know they have no realistic solutions to offer, hell they listen to Rush & Hannity because they're so intellectually bankrupt those are 2 of the few remaining places they can find inspiration, because their own party is not capable of producing inspiration on its own due to a lack of talent ranging from the top of their political food chain down to the moron that criticizes me for pointing the flaw out.
Posted by: Dave at June 22, 2007 09:37 PM (3+0jc)
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So ... Who balances the 24/7 liberal pap from CBS, ABC, NBC, NPR, etc. ad infinitum? I thought conservative shows WERE the balancing broadcasts.
If you do a study of the neverending liberal bias there is in nearly every media outlet the Fairness Doctrine would require a lot MORE conservative shows. Wouldn't that be a good thing?
For every liberal puff piece, you'd have to allow a conservative rebuttal. For every liberal slanted newscast, you'd have to allow a conservative viewpoint. For every liberal end-of-the-world scare tactic you'd have to allow a conservative rational discussion-of-fact.
Hell, if you broadened this to print outlets then the NY Times would have to exactly double in size to accomodate the conservative point of view.
Posted by: DoorHold at June 23, 2007 10:58 AM (kR7v4)
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Dave, the problem is that the libs can't acknowledge that they're slanted. By their lights when they publish Al Quaeda propaganda or run (shall we say) 'factually poetic' hit pieces on conservative causes, they're fully truthful- or at least "fake but accurate", "in the service of a higher truth", and any errors or outright falsehoods are excused in the interest of "speaking truth to power".
To them, Rathergate, CNN's Iraq coverage (where they admitted outright they were working for Hussein's Ministry of Propaganda in their reportage), and Tailwind were accurate and unbiased coverages of important issues, presented without fear or favor.... while, when Fox pointed a camera at Hillary Clinton during the September 11th Emergency Presidential Address and caught her cringing, grimacing, and making faces... THAT was bias.
Posted by: DaveP. at June 24, 2007 06:33 AM (3ky3e)
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Now, that would be a conflict of interest. If it ever happened.
Providing of course there were an ongoing interest in said company. Which of course there wasn't and isn't.
I used to work for IBM and have and
ongoing interest as a stockholder of record to this day.
I also used to work for Rockwell's Space Division (now part of Boeing), but have no stock in Boeing or rolled over/converted Rockwell stock anymore.
Those two situations are completely different WRT conflict of interest. That you can't understand this distinction isn't surprising. Few of the BDS afflicted can.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 24, 2007 10:42 AM (9yWTK)
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Avenger:
Blab, blab, blab. Your BDS reference would have made more sense if I'd actually been discussing Bush, or even mentioned Bush in any way. I've learned, however, that "making sense" is not always on your to-do list.
A pension is an ongoing interest. Obviously.
I can't believe you even bothered writing that post.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at June 24, 2007 12:04 PM (G9XNZ)
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True, the artist or director or whomever is responsible for posting the site needs some education in U.S. Military dress.(and believe me, it aint Pilosi herself, diggin up the stock photos.) And yes, SHE IS responsible for the content, but seriously, do you think your favorite Republican Congressman/woman/Senator sits over the shoulder of some minimum wage college kid and double checks EVERYTHING? I'd like to think our Reps have more important things to do. And believe me, that person will hear about it. But does this really qualify as "news"? Does it really matter? I mean shouldn't the focus be on the fact that some good is going to happen for the benefit of our veterans? Or is partisan finger pointing taken over the web to such an extent that even though a good thing is being done (albeit by those Godless heathens), we have to find SOMETHING to blame Democrats for? Get a life!. Try some civil discourse about REAL ISSUES!
Posted by: me at June 26, 2007 07:17 PM (M+0uZ)
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Pelosi: We Support the CANADIAN Troops
From QandO, where they can tell a difference between U.S. and Canadian uniforms.
Hey, it could be worse...
She could have instead used the photo of her meeting with this weak-chinned ophthalmologist, with whom she may not be visiting with any more.
(Via Hot Air), where they note that Democrats have a history of not knowing what our uniforms look like.
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The Human Ashtray is in for a rough weekend.
Posted by: Dusty at June 22, 2007 11:50 AM (GJLeQ)
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Now, this is quite honestly hearsay and probably irresponsible of me to continue as a rumor, but i hear that Pelosi doesn't nominate any candidates for appointments to US service academies... as a protest of "don't ask don't tell" i guess. (which is ironic in itself, but a whole 'nother discussion)
If that is true, I am really not surprised that she and her staffers/interns would have accidently let this slip.
Posted by: K-Det at June 23, 2007 10:13 AM (aaP7C)
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Shorter right-wing blogosphere: ‘Democrats hate the military because some staffer used the wrong photo on a website. Clearly you must vote Republican.’
Just so we are clear- Bush and company opposed pay raises for our troops, calling them unnecessary. Yet you are in an uproar because Pelosi is increasing veteranÂ’s benefits, but a staffer or webdork used a picture of a Canadian Officer.
Thank goodness the adults are in charge.
Posted by: Jeremy Wilcox at June 24, 2007 07:48 AM (LCnsd)
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Democrats hate the military
Not necessarily. They are however, hasty fools for making such an egregious mistake.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 24, 2007 10:44 AM (9yWTK)
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Well, I suppose they could have used some Walter Reed pictures, but they likely intended to show what they want veterans' healthcare to be (i.e. like the Canadians have it) rather than what it is now. So, the question is, how do you know it was a mistake at all?
Posted by: Shochu John at June 24, 2007 11:32 AM (VCtxB)
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Arrowhead Ripper: Surrender or Die
So Michael Yon entitles his
latest post from the front lines of Operation Arrowhead Ripper in Baquba, which to date, has killed 51 members of al Qaeda and led to the capture of 20 more as of yesterday, June 21.
Source:Explosion in Baquba on June 12, 2007. Photo by Michael Yon.
Yon reports that the larger media organizations are finally showing up, but are having communications problems that make reporting on the battle difficult (I cleaned up the hanging HTML tag in Mike's post; I hope you don't mind):
Alexandra Zavis from Los Angeles Times is down in the heat of the battle bringing home information. Michael Gordon from New York Times is still slugging it out, and his portions are accurate in the co-authored story, "Heavy Fighting as US Troops Squeeze Insurgents in Iraqi City." (Long title.)
CNN has joined the fight. AP came but will stay only a few days. Joe Klein from TIME was here on the 21st and his story posted the same day and was accurate. We rode together in a Stryker. Like magic, JoeÂ’s story was out before I got back to base. Joe took a helicopter out and filed from elsewhere. IÂ’m having comms problems here which is greatly slowing the flow. My Thuraya satellite phone and RBGAN satellite dish are not working for hours each day. The AP reporter is having the same problems. The signal degradation is caused by a special sort of RF interference. Moving our antennas around wonÂ’t work. We simply get cut off for long periods.
If these communications problems sounds familiar, it should: Yon and other journalists have faced these issues for years:
Valuable stories about our soldiers and the battle are being lost and will never be filed because reporters, after a long day of being on the battlefield, cannot make a simple phone call, or file a story. Why be here? ItÂ’s pretty dangerous, and insurance is expensive. I had to skip a mission this morning because I cannot make communications, and am down to filing stories on the fly again without time for editing. There is no other way to keep the flow open, and if you are reading this, itÂ’s only after IÂ’ve wasted hours trying to upload it. Hours I could have been with our soldiers, telling about their days in one of the most important battles of this war.
Frankly, the military has had since 2003 to work on these issues, but setting up communications for reporters has always seemed to be an afterthought, if thought of at all. In a war where media access and coverage driving public opinion is as important to success as combat and humanitarian operations on the ground, there is simply no good excuse for this.
I suspect that a lot of the interference reporters are encountering with their comms are directly the result of ECM jamming to keep al Qaeda from communicating, but as U.S. military comms work, they should be able to dedicate one line or frequency for media reporting. Hopefully, the PAO will get these problems resolved, ASAP.
Otherwise, while Yon is very impressed with U.S. forces and the level of access he and other reporters have been afforded to cover the battle. He is far less impressed with local Iraqi military commanders, who have a tendency to act like state officials in Louisiana:
IÂ’ve seen them in meeting after meeting, over the past few days, finding ways to be underachievers. The Iraqi commanders have dozens of large trucks and have only to drive to our base to collect the supplies and distribute those supplies to the people displaced in the battle. Our troops are fully engaged in combat, yet the Iraqi leaders were not able to carry that load without LTC Johnson supplying the initiative. The Kurds would have had this fixed yesterday. The Iraqi commanders in Mosul would have fixed this. The local Iraqi command climate is disappointing by comparison.
As for his impressions of how our soldiers are performing in Baquba, I'll send you over to Mike's site to read the rest.
As noted above by Yon above, reporters are finally flooding into Baquba to cover Operation Arrowhead Ripper, but communications problems seem to be limiting the information getting out.
One story that did get out, from Reuters reporter Alister Bull, highlights the depravity of the enemy we are fighting:
Bednarek said U.S. forces were making some grisly discoveries as they scoured Baquba. He said residents led soldiers to a house in the western part of the city that appeared to have been used to hold, torment and kill hostages. Soldiers destroyed it.
"When you walk into a room and you see blood trails, you see saws, you see drills, knives, in addition to weapons, that is not normal," Bednarek said.
That soldiers uncovered an al Qaeda torture house is unsurprising; soldiers in another part of Operation Phantom Thunder, in a sub-operation called Operation Commando Eagle, captured an al Qaeda torture manual on CD when they captured several terrorists yesterday. We've seen these before.
Like yesterdays' account from Joe Klein of TIME, Bull reports that members of the insurgent 1920s Revolutionary Brigades are helping U.S. forces route al Qaeda.
Source:Soldiers assigned to the 3rd Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division, move down a neighborhood street during Operation Arrowhead Ripper, June 19, 2007, in Baqouba, Iraq. U.S. Army photo by Sgt. Armando Monroig.
This sounds familiar.
MNC-I release an account this morning that may provide anecdotal evidence that al Qaeda in Baquba was truly surprised by the swiftness and effectiveness of how quickly American forces were able to cordon off Baquba and trap them inside, as al Qaeda fighters desperately attempted to use an ambulance to escape:
Coalition Forces intercepted an ambulance carrying seven suspected al-Qaida operatives attempting to circumvent security elements operating in Baqouba, June 19.
Local doctors called the Diyala Provincial Joint Coordination Center and reported five children injured near Khatoon, a neighborhood in southwest Baqouba, Iraq. The PJCC dispatched an ambulance to that location.
Later, the ambulance was seen heading north on a road northwest of New Baqouba when it bypassed the road that led to the hospital.
The ambulance was stopped by alert Soldiers from 3rd Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division, from Fort Lewis, Wash., who are conducting missions in the area as part of Operation Arrowhead Ripper.
Soldiers checked the ambulance and found a driver and six men, who appeared to be in their 20s and 30s, two of which were injured. There were no children in the ambulance.
CF provided medical treatment to the wounded men and detained all seven.
If this sounds familiar, Hezbollah and Hamas terrorists have frequently used ambulances and even media vehicles to transport men and munitions in their ever-present conflict with Israeli forces.
Another MNC-I release states that U.S. attack helicopters have killed at least 13 al Qaeda terrorists and leveled their compound, and found a Baquba school rigged with explosives:
In a separate engagement, CF Soldiers discovered an empty school complex rigged with explosives in Baqouba, the capital city of Diyala province, Thursday, during Operation Arrowhead Ripper.
Soldiers of 1st Battalion, 12th Cavalry Regiment discovered the booby-trapped school complex. An investigation of the area determined the school and surrounding buildings had been abandoned.
CF had to destroy the school due to risk to the community. CF were unable to disable the explosives because of instability. Ground forces effectively coordinated a precisions guided munitions strike and successfully destroyed the school-borne IED.
The release concludes:
As Arrowhead Ripper continued through June 21, at least 51 al-Qaida operatives have been killed, with 20 al-Qaida operatives detained, seven weapons caches discovered, 21 improvised explosive devices destroyed and nine booby-trapped structures destroyed.
Hopefully we'll be able to update this developing story as more media are able to file reports.
Update: A.J. Strata has his own roundup posted here.
Update: A short email from Mike Yon:
They are in trouble here, Bob. Operation Arrowhead Ripper is going very well. This is a problem for Al Qaeda here.
Based on what Yon has said both in his emails to me and Glenn, and probably others, and what he has said in his posts from Baquba stating his near unfettered access to the Operation Arrowhead Ripper tactical operations center (TOC) for U.S. and Iraqi forces, he is obviously privy to information that shows al Qaeda in Baquba has every appearance of having been successfully surrounded and cut-off.
Yon noted in his latest post that he and other journalists cannot send out reports via cell phone or satellite, indicating that the military is probably jamming non-military electronic transmissions in the area (I'm sure al Qaeda already knows that their phones don't work, or I wouldn't post it).
This means that al Qaeda, which typically carries cell and/or sat phones for communications, is hampered from cummunicating position-to-position within Baquba, and is probably cut off to external cells in surrounding towns and villages as well. It also probably means that their long-standing tactic of using cell phones to rig command-detonated IEDS has been either eliminated, or at least severely hampered.
It seems that U.S. forces may have learned from Fallujah and other operations where the weaknesses in their earlier cordon operations have been, and have closed those gaps in Baquba.
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Torture houses were also found in Fallujah when the US went in. You'd think the anti-war Left might worry just a tiny bit that these sorts of people might be encouraged if we beat a retreat.
Posted by: Jeff Kouba at June 22, 2007 12:03 PM (plsiE)
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Actually, its pretty shocking that Time even ran that Klein piece.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 23, 2007 09:20 AM (9yWTK)
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June 21, 2007
Allen: Fallujah to be Clear of al Qaeda by August
I wonder how much it pained AP's Kim Gamel to
write this:
A U.S. Marine commander in Anbar province predicted that al-Qaida fighters will be expelled from Fallujah by August as the military moves to cut insurgent supply and reinforcement lines into Baghdad and surrounding areas.
Brig. Gen. John Allen, the deputy commander for American forces west of Baghdad, said al-Qaida in Iraq has largely been pushed out of population centers in much of the Anbar province.
He cited the success in turning Sunni tribes against the organization and an influx of American troops to chase al-Qaida out of Iraqi and regions around the capital.
"The vast majority of them have been pushed out of the population centers," Allen said Wednesday in an interview with The Associated Press. "The surge has given us the troops we needed to really clear those areas, so we cleared them and we stayed."
He said U.S. and Iraqi troops were trying to repeat recent success in calming Ramadi, the provincial capital, using the same neighborhood-by-neighborhood tactics in Fallujah -- a Sunni insurgent bastion that was first cleared by a massive American assault in 2004.
Allen also stated Karmah would be clear of al Qaeda by July.
Over at TIME, Joe Klein helicoptered his way into Baquba, and unleashed a surprisingly objective post showing that Sunni Awakening movement that has largely led al Qaeda to flee their one time stronghold in al Anbar province has spread to Diyala province as well, where American forces were getting help from Sunni insurgents:
A lieutenant colonel named Bruce Antonia told Odierno about preparing to attack the Buhritz neighborhood a few nights earlier when he was approached by local Sunni inusurgents—members, they said, of the 1920 Revolutionary Brigades—who were streaming out of the neighborhood. "They said they'd been fighting al-Qaeda but had run out of ammunition and asked us to supply them. We told them, 'Show us where AQ is and we'll fight them.'" The insurgents did and the neighborhood was cleared.
A second lieutenant colonel named Avanulis Smiley picked up the story from there, "Sir, they've also showed us seven buried IED sites. They gave us specific information—description of the houses, gate color, tree trunks."
After the briefing I asked Colonel Antonia if he'd asked the Sunnis why they had turned against al-Qaeda. "They said it was religious stuff," he said. "AQI demanded that the women wear abayas, no smoking and they preached an extreme version of Islam in the mosque. They'd also spent the winter without food and fuel because of the violence al-Qaeda was causing. One guy said to me, 'We fought against you because you invaded our country and you're infidels. But you treat us with more dignity than al-Qaeda,' and he said they'd continue to work with us. I've been involved in many operations here and this is a first—usually everybody's shooting at us. This is the first time we've had any of them on our side." (In web postings, the 1920 Revolutionary Brigade has denied it is cooperating with the Americans.)
Sadly enough, the majority of the media has chosen to focus on the tragic deaths of 14 American troops in combat, instead of what the operations these men were a part of are attempting to accomplish. As is so often the case, Allahpundit puts the media's choice in stark relief.
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We (the USA) helped to create and fund al-Qaeda, right now we are just trying to be friends with the enemy of our enemy. It won't work, and all we are doing is creating more foreign policy "blow back" (see 9/11/01).
Seeing this as a victory (or at least a step in the right direction) just shows how unbelievable naive and arrogant we are.
Posted by: JW NC at June 21, 2007 07:42 PM (88FOa)
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We (the USA) helped to create and fund al-Qaeda
Of course you can document this absurd claim. OBL was about the only Muj we DID NOT fund.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 21, 2007 09:31 PM (9yWTK)
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"A U.S. Marine commander in Anbar province predicted that al-Qaida fighters will be expelled from Fallujah by August as the military moves to cut insurgent supply and reinforcement lines into Baghdad and surrounding areas."
Funny...I seem to remember this confident talk back before the massive November '04 operation. Why should we believe them this time when leveling half the city just kept them out temporarily?
Posted by: Arbotreeist at June 21, 2007 10:34 PM (N8M1W)
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Amazing that half a year ago the liberal press was calling al Anbar a hopeless lost cause. How does that hat taste now?
Posted by: ME at June 21, 2007 11:14 PM (beZKE)
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>>>We (the USA) helped to create and fund al-Qaeda
Of course you can document this absurd claim. OBL was about the only Muj we DID NOT fund.
Posted by Purple Avenger at June 21, 2007 09:31 PM>>>
Absurd? How about you use Google to search for it. How about you watch the history chanel. How about you read a book. What is absurd is the fact that you do not know or are unwilling to admit that this is fact. I will quote for you:
"At the root of these quarrels was the usual culprit - money. Preshawar was the funnel through which cash poured into the jihad and the vast relief effort to help the refugees. The main pool of funds-the hundreds of millions of dollars from the United States and Saudi Arabia doled out by the Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) each year to the Afghan warlords - was drying up as the Soviets Prepared to leave." (page 134 "The Looming Tower" Lawrence Wright).
Get a library card, they are free.
Posted by: JW NC at June 22, 2007 12:11 AM (88FOa)
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"Amazing that half a year ago the liberal press was calling al Anbar a hopeless lost cause. How does that hat taste now?"
You're not suggesting this is going to last, are you? Do you fall for this every time there is a temporary improvement? As soon as they run al Qaeda off, they'll turn right back around and fire on us, with the bullets we gave them.
An American alliance with the 1920 Revolutionary Brigades is not what you could fairly call sustainable.
I have to say, I do enjoy coming back here though. There are fewer and fewer right wing blogs that continue to ride the cycle of getting indignant that the media is not reporting on a given temporary improvement to their liking and falling silent when the situation falls back to its normally dire state. Rinse. Repeat.
Posted by: Shochu John at June 22, 2007 12:21 AM (bs55F)
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[[We (the USA) helped to create and fund al-Qaeda]]
That is an absurd claim. We funded the Mujahideen, you know as part of winning the cold war. AQ emerged later, but even if a small portion of our money made its way into the hand of groups that later became AQ, well, small price to pay for defeating imperial communism.
Posted by: dieneoliberal at June 22, 2007 12:39 AM (beZKE)
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[[You're not suggesting this is going to last, are you?]]
Nice to see the loon left still trying to persuade anyone who will will listen that Iraq is lost, despite the election of a government, the building of a 160,000 man army and a 160,000 man police force, despite the collapse of sectarian violence, despite the pacification of Mosul, Tal Afar, Karbala, Najaf, Ramadi et al.
Are you Harry Reid? Seen your poll numbers recently?
Posted by: dieneoliberal at June 22, 2007 12:43 AM (beZKE)
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JW NC, the quotation from Wright says nothing about bin Laden, and for good reason: we funded the mujahedeen--who were Afghan, unlike bin Laden. Bin Laden was one of many outsiders who came unbidden by the Afghans, who did not work with the "Afghan Arabs" (a derisive nickname Afghans gave the wannabe soldiers of fortune who crossed over into Afghanistan for the sole purpose of mixing it up with Soviet troops). Check out Stephen Schwartz's "The Two Faces of Islam"--he's got the skinny on this.
Posted by: Nathan Tabor at June 22, 2007 01:33 AM (HQYcw)
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the quotation from Wright says nothing about bin Laden
Precisely my point -- apparently lost on JW in hast to commit the same fraud again only at higher volume.
One can hardly dispute that we aided many of the Muj. Demonstrating that we targeted OBL for specific aid is a much harder task.
The best reporting on all this is not found on Google or History channel either, rather in 25 year old editions of Soldier of Fortune who sent reporters into the region to cover the Muj long before the MSM was paying any attention.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 22, 2007 05:49 AM (9yWTK)
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"Nice to see the loon left still trying to persuade anyone who will will listen that Iraq is lost, despite the election of a government,"
BAGHDAD, June 20 -- Iraqi Vice President Adel Abdul Mahdi, a senior Shiite politician often mentioned as a potential prime minister, tendered his resignation last week in a move that reflects deepening frustration inside the Iraqi government with Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki.
Other senior Iraqi officials have considered resigning in recent weeks over the failures of their government to make progress after more than a year in power, according to Iraqi and U.S. officials.
"the building of a 160,000 man army and a 160,000 man police force,"
BAGHDAD -- The signs of the militias are everywhere at the Sholeh police station.
Posters celebrating Moqtada al-Sadr, head of the Mahdi Army militia, dot the building's walls. The police chief sometimes remarks that Shiite militias should wipe out all Sunnis. Visitors to this violent neighborhood in the Iraqi capital whisper that nearly all the police officers have split loyalties. . . .
"I wouldn't let half of them feed my dog," 1st Lt. Floyd D. Estes Jr., a former head of the police transition team, said of the Iraqi police. "I just don't trust them."
Jon Moore, the deputy team chief, said: "We don't know who the hell we're teaching: Are they police or are they militia?"
"despite the collapse of sectarian violence,"
BAGHDAD, 18 June 2007 (IRIN) - Sunni families remaining in Shia neighbourhoods of Baghdad are being forced to flee their homes: A 72-hour deadline announced by militants for them to leave these areas or face death expires on 18 June.
"despite the pacification of Mosul,"
BAGHDAD, June 20 (Reuters) - Gunmen kidnapped eight Christian university students and a lecturer in northern Iraq on Wednesday, police said.
They said the group was snatched off a bus east of the city of Mosul. The students were going home after completing exams.
Militants often target Iraq's tiny Christian community. Thousands of Christians have fled Iraq in recent years, joining an exodus of some 2 million Iraqis who have sought a safer life in mainly neighbouring countries.
"Tal Afar,"
June 19 (Reuters) - Following are security developments in Iraq at 2000 GMT on Tuesday: . . .
TAL AFAR - A woman and a child were killed by a mortar attack in the town of Tal Afar, 420 km (260 miles) north of Baghdad, police said.
"Karbala,"
The Department of Defense announced today the death of three soldiers who were supporting Operation Iraqi Freedom. They died June 10 in Karbala, Iraq, of wounds suffered from an improvised explosive device.
"Najaf,"
GENEVA, June 15 (Reuters) - People fleeing violence in Iraq have begun to move into atrocious makeshift camps on the fringes of cities such as Najaf, the United Nations refugee agency said on Friday. . . .
At one site near the holy Shi'ite city of Najaf, hosting 200 families, people were drinking from a polluted water source and many women were urinating and defecating inside their huts because they were afraid of being attacked outside, he said.
"Ramadi"
June 13 (Reuters) - Following are security developments in Iraq at 1630 GMT on Wednesday:...
RAMADI - Four Iraqi policemen were killed and 11 officers wounded by a suicide car bomber targeting their checkpoint outside Ramadi, 110 km (68 miles) west of Baghdad.
"et al."
By Barry Schweid, AP Diplomatic Writer | June 18, 2007
WASHINGTON --Iraq is now the second most unstable country in the world, a private survey finds, its standing deteriorating from last year's fourth place on a list of the 10 nations most vulnerable to violent internal conflict and worsening conditions
"Are you Harry Reid? Seen your poll numbers recently?"
Do you think they would improve if he actually helped get us out of Iraq instead of just talking about it and making empty gestures?
Posted by: Shochu John at June 22, 2007 07:25 AM (bs55F)
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[...AQ emerged later, but even if a small portion of our money made its way into the hand of groups that later became AQ, well, small price to pay for defeating imperial communism.
Posted by dieneoliberal at June 22, 2007 12:39 AM]
So I guess 9/11 was that small price. Wow, just, wow.
To others that seem to be putting words in my post. It says nothing about Bin Ladden. I never said we funded HIM, we funded what became HIS organization to help defeat imperial communism (as pointed out by dieneoliberal).
I never said anything about the morality, all I am saying is we seem to be enacting short term foreign policy that has long term consequences. But I guess if you support us funding AQ to attack imperial communists, why not support terrorist organization(s) to attack other terrorist organization(s). Whats the worse that can happen?
Posted by: JW NC at June 22, 2007 08:44 AM (88FOa)
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Ah yes, the classic we gave stinger missiles to the Afghans therefore all jihadists have been "created" by the United States. Nothing happens in the world independent of what evil Amerika does. Everything revolves around it. One of the telltale sings of the deranged anti-American mindset.
Posted by: andrew at June 22, 2007 09:20 AM (8X2w4)
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"Ah yes, the classic we gave stinger missiles to the Afghans therefore all jihadists have been "created" by the United States. Nothing happens in the world independent of what evil Amerika does. Everything revolves around it. One of the telltale sings of the deranged anti-American mindset."
Counterbalanced nicely by the "They hate us because of our freedoms" dronings of the more disconnected amongst us.
Posted by: Rafar at June 22, 2007 09:58 AM (kkgmI)
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Rafar, they don't hate us for our freedoms. They hate us because they haven't been convinced that it's safer not to hate us.
Thanks to people like you.
Thanks for helping to extend the unrest and thanks for helping to get hundreds of Americans and thousands of Iraqis killed. You've done your part.
Posted by: DaveP. at June 22, 2007 11:08 AM (+A539)
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"They hate us because they haven't been convinced that it's safer not to hate us."
They hate you because they percieve you as an imperial force which keeps them under the thumb, supports dictators which suppress them and generally keep bombing their fellow Muslims. Now, they may be wrong in that opinion, but it is certainly their opinion.
"Thanks for helping to extend the unrest and thanks for helping to get hundreds of Americans and thousands of Iraqis killed. "
No, thank you. I admit that I am responsible for the gross stupidity that was the invasion of Iraq. It was me touting dubious intel to pursue some idiot dream of spreading democracy at gun point in a country with such an unstable makeup.
I just wish that I hadn't sent the troops in. It seems such an obviously bad idea now. If only people had warned me.
Posted by: Rafar at June 22, 2007 04:38 PM (KWBb6)
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"Counterbalanced nicely by the "They hate us because of our freedoms" dronings of the more disconnected amongst us."
So Rafah, you think that al-Qaeda likes our freedoms?
Posted by: andrew at June 23, 2007 07:03 AM (8X2w4)
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"So Rafah, you think that al-Qaeda likes our freedoms?"
Do you mean the people like Bin Laden, or do you mean people like the local Jihadis in the UK, or the US? There is probably quite a difference between their opions.
Either way, I don't much think that they care. As Bin Laden said (and no, of course I don't like him, admire him, want him to succeed, etc) "Why did we not attack Sweden?". Or Holland, which by most measures is a more liberal society than the US. Whether you let gays marry or not is probably as much a matter of indifference to him as the Dutch decriminalising cannibis.
Of course I can't speak for him, and he may lay awake at night hoping that one day you will cover up all the girly magazines.
Posted by: Rafar at June 23, 2007 11:44 AM (P0E2s)
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So they don't care then. Al Qaeda is pretty much neutral on the issue of freedom in your mind? That's an interesting answer, how did you arrive at the conclusion that bin Laden has no opinion on the topic of democracry, women's rights, religious freedom, dissent, free speech, etc....?
"Why did we not attack Sweden?".
Same reason Hitler didn't attack Peru. It's small, out of the way and not worth devoting any resources to at this point in time. It can be dealt with later when the powerful countries have been dealt with. Also, in the case of Sweden why attack it when it's being taken over demographically anyways?
Posted by: andrew at June 23, 2007 02:53 PM (8X2w4)
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They hate you because they perceive you as an imperial force
So where's my booty if I'm an imperialist? Surely some cheap gas would be the first of the spoils we would loot.
Looks like we're pumping billions more in aid in than we're looting out. We must be very inept imperialists.
However, thanks for conforming that these people are morons because they can't see the obvious.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 24, 2007 10:50 AM (9yWTK)
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"Looks like we're pumping billions more in aid in than we're looting out. We must be very inept imperialists."
I'll say.
Posted by: Shochu John at June 24, 2007 11:22 AM (VCtxB)
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"So they don't care then. Al Qaeda is pretty much neutral on the issue of freedom in your mind? That's an interesting answer, how did you arrive at the conclusion that bin Laden has no opinion on the topic of democracry, women's rights, religious freedom, dissent, free speech, etc....?"
Yes, that is exactly what I said...
*sigh*
I'll again have to break it down into shorter and simpler concepts.
Do you care about the human rights of a farmer in Peru? Perhaps in a general way you might, in a "I care for all humanity" way, but it is unlikely that it drives you. You could be said to be indifferent to it.
That is what I mean by indifferent. In the same way that I am sure you would want the Peruvian farmer to have freedom of speech, assembly, religion, etc Bin Laden would, I am sure, like all Americans to convert to Islam, have Burka wearing as the norm, cover up the girlie magazines, run the place according to Sharia law, etc. That doesn't mean that such a thing is his primary motivation. His primary motivation, at least according o his speeches, is the removal of what he considers to be infidel occupiers from Islam's holy places, and to force those infidels to allow the Islamic majority to run their countries for their own benefit rather than for the benefit of the West.
The fact that the Islamic majority roundly rejects his vision when it is offered doesn't matter as he is a messianic nutcase who simply thinks that this is a reflection on the poor quality of political awareness of "his people".
All you have to do is look at the propeganda that the Islamists use to recruit fellow nutcases. It isn't filled with critiques of the US voting system, pictures of sex shops, or of women unveiled. It is filled with broken and bloody bodies, killed by "imperial forces", US troops lolling in Muslim holy places, corruption by leaders in Muslim countries sanctioned by the West, and pictures of starving children as a result of the Iraq sanctions, all of which are tied together into a narrative of Western oppression of Muslims in their own lands.
Is that clear enough? Like I say, you can disagree with his assesment of the situation, but it is pretty obvious that it *is* his assesment.
"Same reason Hitler didn't attack Peru. It's small, out of the way and not worth devoting any resources to at this point in time."
But it is free. If attacking freedom was the objective then attacking Sweden would be more useful because (a) it would be easier and less risky and (b) it is a more promising target than the less free US.
On the other hand, in terms of military might, interference of that military might around the world and support for such things as anti-Islamic groups around the world and support for dictatorships in the Middle East, the US is the more tempting target even though it is obviously more dangerous to attack.
But you are probably correct to try not to look at what Bin Laden says and does to determine his objectives in order to better fight him. Much better to continue with the silly portrayal of himthat seems prevalent. As I've said before, foreign policy based on fantasy has done so well for the last few years, why not carry it on.
Posted by: Rafar at June 25, 2007 04:20 AM (kkgmI)
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"We must be very inept imperialists."
Well, not the worst the world has ever seen, but pretty poor at it, yes.
Posted by: Rafar at June 25, 2007 04:21 AM (kkgmI)
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to better fight him??? split infinitive!!! learn some GRAMMAR hippy
Posted by: Karl at June 25, 2007 01:25 PM (12ZG0)
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"learn some GRAMMAR hippy"
The bar on split infinitives is a thing of the past. The requirements for single exclaimation marks, capital letters at the beginning of sentences and full stops at the end are, however, still in force.
Posted by: Rafar at June 26, 2007 03:30 AM (kkgmI)
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Another 48 Hours
Michael Yon has a new post up,
Operation Arrowhead Ripper: Day One. The military is allowing him full access to the battlefield and to the TOC headquarters. Civilian casualties are occurring, as the terrorists are using civilians as human shields when they engage our forces. The number of civilian casualties is as yet unknown.
Yon notes that only Michael Gordon of the NY Times is with him, making them the only two members of the media in the battle. CNN, TIME, Reuters, etc are apparently working their way to the battlefield now, making me wonder just who and how they're getting their stories to date.
I'm not going to steal all of Mike's thunder; go to his site to catch up on the rest of his account, and remember he is reader supported.
I will say this: I've been reading him since his embed with the "Deuce-Four" Stryker Brigade and have been corresponding regularly with him for most of a year, and I've rarely seen him so confident of an on-going operation. If he's correct—and he's rarely wrong, even when being right is unpopular—then al Qaeda in Baquba is living on borrowed time.
According to a press release from MNF-I PAO yesterday, "41 insurgents have been killed, five weapons caches have been discovered, 25 improvised explosive devices have been destroyed and five booby-trapped houses have been discovered and destroyed."
Other operations are underway as part of an overall operation called Phantom Thunder, but some are not getting as much media attention as Arrowhead Ripper is beginning to attract, so you may not be aware of them.
Operation Commando Eagle has been launched as joint U.S Army-Iraqi Army air-ground assault targeting al Qaeda cells southwest of Baghdad. Twenty-nine suspects have been detained, and multiple weapons caches were reported captured.
According to the MNF-I PAO release:
Troops of the 2nd Battalion, 14th Infantry Regiment, 2nd BCT, detained three men when their truck was found to contain documents requesting rockets as well as a spool of copper wire, commonly used to build improvised explosive devices.
I'm going to try to track down who that document was requesting rockets from, as while it could be nothing conclusive, it could be quite interesting if a source of the rockets could be identified.
Southeast of Baghdad, Operation Marne Torch is joint U.S. Army-Iraqi Army operation clearing the Arab Jabour area. More than sixty suspects have been detained, and 17 boats used to ferry explosives across the Tigris River have been destroyed, as have 17 weapons caches.
No Agenda Here
It in the past 48 hours, more than 40 al Qaeda terrorists (including a Libyan) have been killed, more than 100 have been captured in these and other on-going operations, and tons of munitions have been captured or destroyed in weapons caches.
What does CNN focus on? You already know the answer:
Fourteen U.S. troops have been killed in attacks over the past two days in Iraq -- 12 soldiers and two Marines -- according to the U.S. military.
In the deadliest attack, a roadside bomb struck a military vehicle on Thursday in northeastern Baghdad, killing five U.S. soldiers, three Iraqi civilians and an Iraqi interpreter.
A U.S. soldier and two civilians were wounded.
Also Thursday, a rocket-propelled grenade struck a U.S. military vehicle in northern Baghdad, killing a soldier and wounding three others.
On Wednesday, a roadside bomb killed two U.S. Task Force Marne troops and wounded four others southwest of Baghdad.
A similar attack in western Baghdad on Wednesday killed four U.S. soldiers and wounded a fifth.
In addition, two Marines were killed in combat operations in Iraq's Anbar province on Wednesday.
There was zero--ZERO mention of the successes of the operations above mentioned by CNN. If you read this, their featured story on the war for today, you'd be left to understand that American and Iraqi forces, as well as Iraqi civilians, are suffering significant casualties, and al Qaeda terrorists, Sunni insurgents, and Shia militiamen got away with barely a scratch for the carnage they created. The CNN account reported a grand total of one dead terrorist, and he was a suicide bomber.
Propaganda is as much about what you chose not to print, as much as it is about the angle from which you pursue what do decide to print. Not that many years ago, CNN took a vow of silence not to report the torture being committed by Saddam Hussein's brutal regime in order to maintain a Baghdad office.
I'm beginning to wonder exactly what CNN gains now by refusing to tell all of the truth of this current Iraqi war.
Nah. Couldn't be.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Still doing counter insurgency the kinetic way I see.
As I have said everytime one of these major operations starts, check back with the cleared areas in 6 months. If they are better than they were two weeks ago then you've had a success. Generally speaking they have turned out to be worse by this measure.
It all runs on the same old logic. "If we win enough tactical victories, we will make up for the glaring hole where our strategy is supposed to be"
Standard form is now to declaim how very different this operation is to all the other ones, to list body counts, to enphesise how brave and superior coalition forces are and to remind us all of how very evil the enemy are. To save time;
1) Yes, now instead of warning the population and giving the insurgents time to get out, the army is attcking with little warning in densely packed civilian areas. Well, you swap insurgents getting away for increased radicalisation of the population by civilian deaths. Trust me, they aren't going to be blamed on Al-Q.
2) In insurgent vs conventional force war, 10-1 is the standard kill ratio.
3) Yes, they are very brave and very competent.
4) Yes, they are very evil and worthy of being killed.
Like I said, check back in 6 months. Things will be worse than they were two weeks ago in the swept areas.
Posted by: Rafar at June 21, 2007 10:54 AM (kkgmI)
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Post a link to this piece at my forums. Good info CY! Thanks!
Posted by: LisaV (aka "Talismen" - Lady Crusader against jihad) at June 21, 2007 11:36 AM (hosSA)
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EDIT: Make that: "I postED a link to this piece at my forums...."
Sorry.... :-)
Posted by: LisaV (aka "Talismen" - Lady Crusader against jihad) at June 21, 2007 11:40 AM (hosSA)
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Rafar, to the best of my knowledge, counterinsurgency is always kenetic, at least to certain degree. If you know of significant armed insurgencies with external support that have been defeated in the complete absense of the legitimate government re-establishing a monopoly of force, I'd love to be further educated on the subject.
I'm not sure that your larger theory, that every place we've tried this has reverted to a worse-than-before situation. Indeed, Fallujah, while still problematic in areas, is far more quiet than it once was, as, indeed, is most of al Anbar province.
Perhaps previous operations have made claims to being different and new in some way, but the current operations are, in my opinion, radically different because of the extensive involvement in the current operation in Baquba of civilians
and even insurgents:
A lieutenant colonel named Bruce Antonia told Odierno about preparing to attack the Buhritz neighborhood a few nights earlier when he was approached by local Sunni inusurgents—members, they said, of the 1920 Revolutionary Brigades—who were streaming out of the neighborhood. "They said they'd been fighting al-Qaeda but had run out of ammunition and asked us to supply them. We told them, 'Show us where AQ is and we'll fight them.'" The insurgents did and the neighborhood was cleared.
A second lieutenant colonel named Avanulis Smiley picked up the story from there, "Sir, they've also showed us seven buried IED sites. They gave us specific information—description of the houses, gate color, tree trunks."
After the briefing I asked Colonel Antonia if he'd asked the Sunnis why they had turned against al-Qaeda. "They said it was religious stuff," he said. "AQI demanded that the women wear abayas, no smoking and they preached an extreme version of Islam in the mosque. They'd also spent the winter without food and fuel because of the violence al-Qaeda was causing.
One guy said to me, 'We fought against you because you invaded our country and you're infidels. But you treat us with more dignity than al-Qaeda,' and he said they'd continue to work with us. I've been involved in many operations here and this is a first—usually everybody's shooting at us. This is the first time we've had any of them on our side." (In web postings, the 1920 Revolutionary Brigade has denied it is cooperating with the Americans.)
I think you'll agree with me, Rafar, that counterinsurgencies are won when common ground can be established, truces negotiated, differences minimized, and political accords eventually reached.
There will always be hardliners who refuse to negotiate, however, and in some instances, have no interest in peace at any cost, profiting more from the war itself. Both side hoping for peace eventually realize this, and eventually come to grips with the fact that those radicalized elements must be driven out or killed.
This has already occurred in al Anbar, where Sunni tribesmen from a hundred tribes hunt al Qaeda, and have forced it to flee or die fighting. It is beginning in Baghdad, where ten Sunni tribes formerly loyal to the insurgency have joined the Awakening. It began occuring in Diyala in recent months, and the apparent cooperation by the 1920s Revolutionary Brigades in Baquba simply seems to be a part of that trend.
Contrary to your claims, the locals are largely blaming al Qaeda for civilain deaths, again, something that has carried over from al Anbar. al Qaeda has killed, tortured and mutilated thousands of Iraqis in the name of their twisted vision of Islam. Often, they do so for what seems to be almost sport to them. Our soldiers do kill civilians, but unlike the terrorists, we do so only by accident.
You predict things will be worse in in six months in almost what passes for a hopeful tone. I hope I misinterpreted that.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 21, 2007 01:12 PM (9y6qg)
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Oh, I almost forgot to mention, Rafar: al Qaeda appears as if they are
about to be routed in Fallujah.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 21, 2007 01:32 PM (9y6qg)
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"At least thats what your hoping."
Yes, you are correct, I yearn for my Islamic overlords to release me from this hell of freedom and prosperity.
Posted by: Rafar at June 21, 2007 02:12 PM (KWBb6)
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Yes, you are correct, I yearn for my Islamic overlords to release me from this hell of freedom and prosperity.
As someone writing from the dead geographic center of the British Isles, you may very well get your wish. And Rafar... stay away from Moddey Dhoo.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 21, 2007 02:29 PM (9y6qg)
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"You predict things will be worse in in six months in almost what passes for a hopeful tone. I hope I misinterpreted that."
Let's start with this. Of course it isn't a hopeful tone. It is a resigned tone. A despairing tone. One of deep and abiding sadness. I wish that Iraq could become the society it has the potential to be. One where secular values rule the roost. One where women are free. One where every Iraqi wakes up and feel about the same as I do. Comfortable, safe, secure, expecting in today no more tragedy than I experienced yesterday. Worrying about the car's sevice, about the school fete, about how my job will be in a year, all that stuff.
Is that clear enough to do away with this line of thinking or do I have to say it as a preface to anything that I say?
"If you know of significant armed insurgencies with external support that have been defeated in the complete absense of the legitimate government re-establishing a monopoly of force, I'd love to be further educated on the subject."
In all societies the government has to establish a monopoly on force to achieve stability.
My point was on the emphasis of kinetic vs passive forms of counter insurgeny. As William Lind would say, de-escalate or go with the Hama model. Half measures are never going to work. De-escalation is the only real option open to us, but we consistently fail to choose it. It may fail (it almost certainly will at this point) but we are never going to go for the full blown extermination route (and I am thankful for that) so it is the only chance.
"indeed, Fallujah, while still problematic in areas, is far more quiet than it once was, as, indeed, is most of al Anbar province."
Fallujah is a pile of Rubble surrounded by the dispossesed in tent cities. It is a symbol for all Iraqis of the evils of the American occupation. "Problematic in areas"? Ask your average Fallujahn in those tent cities whether life is better now, or two weeks before the American assualt. 2 Marines were killed there yesterday for goodness sake.
"Perhaps previous operations have made claims to being different and new in some way, but the current operations are, in my opinion, radically different because of the extensive involvement in the current operation in Baquba of civilians and even insurgents:"
This is my point. Killing Al-Quaeda was something that the Sunni tribes were always going to get around to the moment their usefullness against the Americans faded. If the US had pulled out Al-Q would have been slaughtered by these Sunni tribes and they would have whistled while they worked.
It doesn't mean that the Sunnis are going peaceful, or that they are going to stop attacking US forces, or that they are not going to continue to fight the government which they largely consider to be an Iranian proxy. And even if they did, we would still be largely fighting for the authority of an Iranian-friendly bunch of useless, corrupt religious sectarians with radically opposing views of what should happen to Iraq and no ability or inclination to actually compromise.
This is what I mean when I say "If we win enough tactical victories, we will make up for the glaring hole where our strategy is supposed to be"
"I think you'll agree with me, Rafar, that counterinsurgencies are won when common ground can be established, truces negotiated, differences minimized, and political accords eventually reached."
Absolutely. Don't get me wrong, what has been happening in Anbar is great. It is what we should have been doing for years. But then we have to blow it all in big kinetic operations and make ourselves the hated occupier again.
Anyway, the debate is pretty pointless as what I said can only be tested in 6 months. I hope that I am wrong, but I wouldn't lay a penny on it. In fact, I'll offer you $10 that in 6 months things are worse in the swept areas than they were two weeks ago. And I'll be happy to pay out, I promise you.
Posted by: Rafar at June 21, 2007 02:44 PM (KWBb6)
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"As someone writing from the dead geographic center of the British Isles, you may very well get your wish. "
Not living here you wouldn't be able to appreciate how utterly laugable that sentiment is. I shan't bother to go into it, but honestly, that's just silly.
And I speak as one who lived in the center of Wembley for a year.
Posted by: Rafar at June 21, 2007 02:53 PM (KWBb6)
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"And Rafar... stay away from Moddey Dhoo."
And what does that mean by the way?
Posted by: Rafar at June 21, 2007 02:56 PM (KWBb6)
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Scratch that. Google is your friend. A spectral dog on the Isle of Man? I'll be sure to look out for it...
*confused*
Posted by: Rafar at June 21, 2007 03:03 PM (KWBb6)
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The MSM is a disgrace. Thank god for the Bill Roggios of the internet.
Posted by: ME at June 21, 2007 11:15 PM (beZKE)
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I yearn for my Islamic overlords to release me from this hell of freedom and prosperity.
Stick around for another 25 years there. The demographics are on the Islamic overlords side. The smart ones are fleeing while its still possible to cash out their fortunes and get some value out of it.
The retards are staying and will learn a hard lesson.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 22, 2007 05:55 AM (9yWTK)
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"The retards are staying and will learn a hard lesson."
Piffle. Utter paranoid piffle.
Posted by: Rafar at June 22, 2007 07:54 AM (kkgmI)
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"Rafar"
you dont deserve the warning,,, but YES
your birth rate is DROPPING while the arab/muslim birth rate on your bonny shores is SKYROCKETING
sharia is wending its way into your SCHOOLS, GOVT &ETC like a long vile SNAKE penetraiting your every defense
blair made a stand and you TOSSED him!!! how good does it look to you???
Posted by: Karl at June 22, 2007 10:25 PM (5zEhw)
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Ahh, now that you put it into caps with many exclaimation points I am convinced.
I'd better bone up on my Koran.
"blair made a stand and you TOSSED him!!! how good does it look to you???"
A stand against what? The skyrocketing Muslim birthrate? I think that we should probably be sterilising Muslims in the UK, don't you agree? After all, they are all a bunch of murdering Sharia loving evildoers. Maybe we should try removing their kids and having them raised in good Christian families. Or we could just cut to the chase and go straight for the extermination route.
Posted by: Rafar at June 23, 2007 02:17 AM (KWBb6)
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June 20, 2007
Anybody Hiring?
The six-month contract I was hired into in 2005 is finally closing at the end of this month after three extensions, and a few folks have suggested that I should investigate attempting to find a new media journalism gig, either here in the Raleigh area, or one from which I could telecommute.
I know via Sitemeter that a few media outfits check in on this site on occasion, so I'm wondering...
Any takers?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I know you looked at the comment number and hoped I had news of a job, but I just wanted to wish you the best of luck, Bob.
Posted by: Granddaddy Lonhg Legs at June 20, 2007 03:38 PM (klw4o)
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Didn't Ian Schwartz just leave Hot Air recently? Don't know if they're looking for a replacement or not but it looks like a fit to me.
Posted by: Bill Faith at June 21, 2007 04:46 PM (n7SaI)
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Uh, speaking as a professional (yes, MSM1 the horror .. the horror) journalist, I'd suggest you consider a new career.
Posted by: al_in_arabia at June 22, 2007 03:03 PM (Y0gy2)
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The Silence of the Lambs
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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So Palestinian vs. Palestinian violence is a bad thing? I thought you (and everyone on here) view everyone in Palestine as part of Hamas (I really wish that article was still up here from a month or so ago that complained about lack of media coverage of a Hamas attack on Israel, where I made the comment that Hamas and the Palestinians are not one and the same and got laughed at). So by pointing out this other blog post is supposed to do what? From my understanding this is something YOU WANTED. "THEY" are fighting themselves!
Posted by: JW NC at June 22, 2007 12:33 AM (88FOa)
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Support the Marines
This just in via email from
Blackfive:
With combat operations in Iraq as kinetic as they've ever been, the Marines could use your support. No links, just please use the info below at your discretion.
At Blackfive, we have been trying to improve our relationship with the Public Affairs Officers in Iraq and Afghanistan. Not surprisingly, the Marines have begun a really intense exchange of ideas with us. One Marine Combat Commander embraced our offer of support.
One of the requests that they had of us was to attempt to get 6,000 positive and supportive emails - one for each Marine, Sailor and Soldier in the Marine Regimental Combat Team - 6. Grim, our resident thinker and former Marine at Blackfive, has taken responsibility for this project.
From Grim's interview with Marine Colonel Simcock, Commander of RCT-6:
http://www.blackfive.net/main/2007/06/roundtable_with.html
COL. SIMCOCK: (Chuckles.) I'll tell you what, the one thing that all Marines want to know about -- and that includes me and everyone within Regimental Combat Team 6 -- we want to know that the American public are behind us. We believe that the actions that we're taking over here are very, very important to America. We're fighting a group of people that, if they could, would take away the freedoms that America enjoys.
If anyone -- you know, just sit down, jot us -- throw us an e- mail, write us a letter, let us know that the American public are behind us. Because we watch the news just like everyone else. It's broadcast over here in our chow halls and the weight rooms, and we watch that stuff, and we're a little bit concerned sometimes that America really doesn't know what's going on over here, and we get sometimes concerns that the American public isn't behind us and doesn't see the importance of what's going on. So that's something I think that all Marines, soldiers and sailors would like to hear from back home, that in fact, yes, they think what we're doing over here is important and they are in fact behind us.
The Marines have set up a special email address to send a supportive message to the Marines is: RCT-6lettersfromh@gcemnf-wiraq.usmc.mil . The emails are being scanned by the PAO before being printed and distributed to individual Marines.
And, guess what?, the RCT-6 has a blog at http://fightin6thmarines.vox.com/
AFTER A FEW DAYS, WE HAVE ONLY GOTTEN THE MARINES ABOUT 2,000 EMAILS. WE COULD USE SOME HELP IN GETTING THE WORD OUT.
Thanks!
Best,
Matt
You're waiting for what, exactly?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
01:45 PM
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