June 22, 2006
In My Mind, I'm Gone To Carolina
I'm against using the entire state, but we could certainly slip them into Chapel Hill without anyone noticing. *
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Don't we still send all our criminals to Georgia?
Posted by: The man at June 22, 2006 01:59 PM (EDlAL)
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Yes you do. But we've run out and are back to using paper targets. Please send some more.
Posted by: GeorgiaBoy at June 23, 2006 09:50 AM (Uw66l)
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The Santorum Code
We've now had roughly 15 hours since Senator Rick Santorum and Rep. Pete Hoestra announced in a hastily-called news conference that a newly declassified portion of a report from the National Ground Intelligence Center (NGIC) confirmed that approximately
500 chemical weapons have been recovered in Iraq since 2003.
Since that time, the major media outlets have greeted this story with a virtual news blackout, leaving this story to the blogosphere to analyze.
Predictably, reaction to this story seems to fall along party lines. Many conservative bloggers covering the story see this as an absolute vindication of the Bush Administration, and are ecstatic. Quite a few others are more cautious, hoping to see more in the way of details released from the still-classified NGIC report from which the summary was culled.
On the other side of the political spectrum, many liberal blogs seemed almost rudderless in the hours after the story broke, almost as if they were waiting for guidance from either the silent media or equally quiet top-flight liberal blogs. Since then, they have mostly seemed to fallen in line behind Dafna Linzer of the Washington Post, who is taking the position, "nothing to see here/this doesn't count."
So what do we really have, and what do we really know?
We know for a fact that under Saddam Hussein, Iraqi began cultivating the development of chemical weapons in 1971. An article from the United Nations News Centre tells us further (h/t Flopping Aces:
Iraq first started exploring chemical weapons in 1971, and reviews developments through the establishment of a “large-scale chemical weapons programme” in 1981. The capacity expanded from there to the point that “according to Iraq, the use of chemical weapons achieved its major purpose and made a significant impact on the outcome of the Iran-Iraq war.”
According to declarations made by Iraq, in the period from 1981 to 1991 the chemical weapon programme produced approximately 3,850 tons of the chemical warfare agents mustard, tabun, sarin and VX, the report states.
Of the total of some 3,850 tons of chemical warfare agents produced, approximately 3,300 tons of agents were weaponized in different types of aerial bombs, artillery munitions and missile warheads.
In the period from 1981 to 1991, Iraq weaponized some 130,000 chemical munitions in total. Of these, over 101,000 munitions were used in combat, according to Iraq, in the period from 1981 to 1988.
Iraq declared that some 28,500 chemical munitions remained unused as of January 1991; about 5,500 filled munitions were destroyed by coalition forces during the war in 1991, while another 500 filled munitions were declared destroyed unilaterally by Iraq. “These last two figures were partially verified by United Nations inspectors,” the report states.
The bulk of the destruction of some 22,000 filled munitions occurred under the supervision of the UN inspectors in accordance with Security Council resolution 687 (1991) – the "ceasefire resolution" which ended the war – in the period from 1991 to 1994. During the collection of chemical weapons for destruction after the 1991 war, Iraq stated that it was not able to locate some 500 chemical munitions.
Iraq claimed it had 28,500 chemical weapons in 1991, and about 5,500 were destroyed in the 1991 Gulf War bringing the total to 23,000. Iraq then claims to have destroyed 500 munitions on their own and 22,000 weapons were destroyed under the supervision of U.N. weapons inspectors. This leaves us with roughly 500 chemical weapons that Iraq was unable to locate.
Are these same 500 chemical weapons that Iraq was unable to account for the same 500 chemical weapons that Santorum and Hoekstra revealed that U.S. forces have captured, and the same 500 that Dafna Linzer claims were buried in the desert near the Iran-Iraq border during their 1980-88 war?
If it can be verified that these are the missing 500 munitions from Saddam's declaration to the United Nations, then the accounting of Saddam's known weapons of mass destruction should be very close to complete. There should be no more significant caches of chemical weapons found in Iraq. It took 15 years and a war, but his chemical weapons have apparently all been accounted for and no significant quantities of thes munitions seem to have fallen into the hands of the various terrorist groups that Saddam cultivated in Iraq and elsewhere in the Middle East.
This news in and of itself would seem to be a significant victory.
But this is not how this story has been presented by Rick Santorum and Pete Hoekstra. They make the presentation that the 500 weapons found by U.S forces since the invasion of Iraq by Coalition forces justify the WMD rationale, one of several reasons and by far the one most publicized used to justify this conflict.
I wish that this did justify that rationale, but it does not.
Our rationale was based on the thought that Saddam was continuing to develop and experiment with weapons of mass destruction, and that he continued to have the capability to build chemical and biological weapons. Saddam, indeed, led the world to believe that he still had this capability, and it wasn't until after the war that we discovered that he may have been bluffing all along. We have found no more modern (post 1991) chemical weapons in Iraq. We have found no smoking gun showing concrete proof of more recent development, and it is quite possible we never may.
It does, however, seem to close the book on the WMDs known to have existed in Iraq as of January 1991, as declared by the government of Saddam Hussein. The 500 munitions Saddam's Army could not locate seem to have been recovered by the U.S military. While small quantities of these weapons may still turn up, no significant caches should remain to be discovered.
That fact alone, that we recovered these approximately 500 "lost" munitions, is reason enough to celebrate, but it neither proves nor disproves the existence of a post-1991 weapons program.
If any significant future caches are found, however, then the game will indeed be afoot, and both the media and doubters in the blogosphere will be out of valid excuses.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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What's this? A reasonable post at CY? The 4 horsemen must be on their way.
Posted by: jpe at June 22, 2006 11:29 AM (5ceWd)
Posted by: The Heretik at June 22, 2006 11:33 AM (mLyjh)
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I don't remember the issue to have been about post 1991 weapons. Everyone seems to rewrite history. I remember the issue and it was give us the weapons, let us look for them or ELSE.
ELSE happened. Without 911 we probably had the time and resources to play around another ten or more years.
With 911 we had to face an active and agressive enemy and it would have been imprudent to leave a mad dog at our backs.
As it turned out we got to fight the enemy in the mad dogs own junk yard and our yard staid quite nice.
Posted by: RFYoung at June 22, 2006 12:58 PM (WqZCc)
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I'd agree with jpe, although I'll attempt to be less sarcastic. Congratulations for making a good analysis. You made exactly the point that seems to be missing from most right-wing blogs.
As to the numbers; well, when I read the memo itself, it says "Since 2003 Coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent." My reading of that is that it's talking about things that have been found in dribs and drabs, and therefore *not* the ones Santorum is talking about, which came in a big lump. So we're already at 1000 shells that have been found.
I think your analysis is far too precise; you're ignoring the various "approximately"s in your sources. More importantly, I don't have as much faith in the Ba'athist bureaucracy as you do; I'd imagine that there was a continous "loss" of weapons as they got siphoned off by corrupt middle-ranking officers making shady deals without telling their superiors, and fiddling the books to cover their tracks.
I'm sure there are thousands more chemical weapons in Iraq, but this isn't relevant to the justification for going to war. The war was against Saddam Hussein, not Iraq, and Saddam Hussein didn't have access to the "lost" weapons. As long as he didn't build any more, I think we could have felt safe from him.
Of course, having thousands of loose chemical weapons is a bad thing, and worth cleaning up. Indeed, there are various reasons for invading the place, some of them even reasonable. The key point that pisses people off is that
those weren't the reasons that were given. The reason that was given was bogus. That really shouldn't be forgiven.
Posted by: Mat at June 22, 2006 01:40 PM (SfpLY)
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Well, from your conclusions, you seem to have tasted the poison kool-aid also. There are lots of other reasons for having gone into Iraq. It is just no one remembers them. Too much McDonalds.
The Hobo
Posted by: Robohobo at June 22, 2006 02:00 PM (jDjP3)
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I think the Duelfer Reports that Hussein was, in fact,
attempting to reconstitute his WMD programs, and that he was further along than even we realized. That was one of the primary issues,
not that he had completely reconstituted them. I'd have to go back and re-read the report, and look again at our claims leading up to the war, but I don't believe anyone actually claimed the programs were active. Am I missing something?
Posted by: NukemHill at June 22, 2006 03:16 PM (lHcjX)
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What NukemHill said. At first, after Duelfer, it was all programs and no stockpiles, now it's all stockpiles and no programs.
Maybe it's just the champagne I've been guzzling, but you and Patterico and Allahpundit are looking a little hard to please...
Posted by: See-Dubya at June 22, 2006 03:37 PM (Fqfkz)
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Being the forthright and totally standup guy Saddam is, we would of course be complete fools to not take Saddam's pre-91 accounting as anything but the gospel.
Want to buy any land in FL? Its kind of submerged real estate at the moment, but I can cut you a real good deal on it.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 22, 2006 04:55 PM (M0Kdm)
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I've re-read the joint resolution. In retrospect, some of the language is a little vague, so there's plenty of wiggle room for all sides in this little debate. I'm leaving town before dawn tomorrow morning, but if I get a chance, I'm going to blog a little on this myself.
Language games can be sooooo much fun....
Posted by: NukemHill at June 22, 2006 04:59 PM (lHcjX)
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"coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent."
You're gloating because we've sacrificed 2,500 of our finest over 500 expired chemical munitions.
Maybe the MSM doesn't think this is a big deal.
Now is that time when you pretend like we were marching democracy all along.
Posted by: Cyrus McElderry at June 22, 2006 05:19 PM (DixoE)
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Excellent summary, missing only one important point; the ISG report stated, quite specifically, that Saddam had the capability to restart his WMD program on almost a moment's notice. It suggests that he could have gotten Amthrax production up and going within a week, and been producing large quantities within a month...our 'fears' of Saddam were quite justified, as France and German were agitating to have the sanctions lifted, and once they were lifted, Saddam would have been free to reconstitute his army and WMD development.
Posted by: Steve at June 22, 2006 06:28 PM (Xq0Cz)
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I haven't followed the WMD story exclusively, so bear with me -
As late as 2000 - we have this gentleman (link) that says:
"The young engineer is quoted as saying Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein will never give up his dream of being the first Arab leader to have the atomic bomb"
I Al-googled his name - and only this same article comes up - so was this man ever heard from again? Or was he discredited? Last name is Zweir-
http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/2000/12/iraq-001224.htm
Posted by: Enlightened at June 22, 2006 09:57 PM (iB7ZQ)
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Here's another (long and technical read)link that indicates Iraq's desire to produce a nuclear weapon. Interestingly enough, the author was a whistle-blower against scientists and intelligistas that chose to look the other way.
What I'm getting at in these links is the mind-set that everyone thought Saddam was just a blowhard loon that didn't need to be taken out.
IMO, on the contrary - these links prove his maniacal desire to have WMD.
This article covers all the way to 2001 - and we are to believe Saddam was HARMLESS?
"In July 1991, shortly after the Gulf War, news from Iraq confirmed what I had concluded twelve years earlier: That Iraq had decided to use the calutron electromagnetic isotope separation (EMIS) process to produce highly enriched uranium, i.e., the very same process that was actually used to produce the uranium-235 that was fissioned in the atomic bomb that exploded over Hiroshima in August 1945."
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Iraq/Calutron.html
Posted by: Enlightened at June 22, 2006 10:26 PM (iB7ZQ)
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Geez Cyrus....You have any more sour grapes you want to air now that you were proved wrong...again?
Do you have any clue as to how much damage a couple of gallons of sarin could do if stuck in a bottle with say something as simple as an M-80 attached to it? Do you know how many innocent people that would kill? That's why they are called Weapons of MASS Destruction. Get a clue.
Posted by: Specter at June 23, 2006 12:39 PM (ybfXM)
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WMD Media Blackout
To put it mildly,
this bears discussion:
The United States has found 500 chemical weapons in Iraq since 2003, and more weapons of mass destruction are likely to be uncovered, two Republican lawmakers said Wednesday.
"We have found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, chemical weapons," Sen. Rick Santorum, R-Pa., said in a quickly called press conference late Wednesday afternoon.
Reading from a declassified portion of a report by the National Ground Intelligence Center, a Defense Department intelligence unit, Santorum said: "Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent. Despite many efforts to locate and destroy Iraq's pre-Gulf War chemical munitions, filled and unfilled pre-Gulf War chemical munitions are assessed to still exist."
Or at least, one might think this would bear discussion, whether Santorum and Hoekstra are right or wrong.
If correct, their claims of found chemical weapons—mustard gas or sarin, filled or unfilled, degraded or in perfect condition—would seemingly vindicate the Bush Administration and bury a key canard of leftist opposition to the war, that soldiers and civilians have "died for a lie."
Likewise, it would be worth it for the media/anti-war/Democratic Party camps to begin questioning the story, on the chance that Santorum and Hoekstra have buried themselves with inaccurate information.
Everyone should be talking about thisÂ… so why aren't they?
While Fox News runs a story about the Santorum/Hoestra release, CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, the Los Angeles Times, the New York Times, and the Boston Globe have taken the code of omertàas of midnight, though the Washington Post, to its slim credit, squeaked out a page A10 mention essentially claiming that these WMDs didn't count, even though they provide exactly zero support for their claims.
With the exception of Fox News, the WMD story and the underlying newly declassified six paragraph summary (PDF) seems to be the subject of a major news blackout.
Is this silence the sound of fear?
7:00 AM Update: According to a Google News search for WMDs, all the news organizations cited above still refuse to discuss this news.
Shocking.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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So confusing... You've been telling us for 3 years now that the presence of WMD was never the point. Now it is?
Posted by: The Liberal Avenger at June 22, 2006 12:31 PM (ulU1a)
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Did you even bother to read the post before commenting. This is a post about the media coverage--actually the lock of media coverage--of what should be a front-page story.
Anyone with even a room temperature IQ should have been able to discern that as the main theme of this post.
I guess for you, it really was "so confusing," just as you state...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 22, 2006 12:44 PM (g5Nba)
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Of course he didn't read it - it contains "facts" - something that liberals are deathly afraid of...
Posted by: Zone3 at June 22, 2006 12:53 PM (L/qA6)
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Well I agree with you. It is odd that this hasn't received more play in the news.
Perhaps it's because Rick Santorum is such a tool.
Posted by: The Liberal Avenger at June 22, 2006 12:55 PM (ulU1a)
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Bainbridge:
http://www.professorbainbridge.com/2006/06/500_wmd_shells_.html
Posted by: The Liberal Avenger at June 22, 2006 12:56 PM (ulU1a)
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Don't you get it, they had their REALLY BIG story today ... the Duke case. They trash a minority woman, defend the drunken jocks of Duke as "boys will be boys," all the while claiming that our guys looking at a Muslim woman constitutes torture (remember Kerry's "terrorizing women and children in the middle of the night" claim. Ooooooh, such torture.
Posted by: Sara (Squiggler) at June 22, 2006 01:08 PM (1mQHF)
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Well, this makes it all worthwhile. Wait, no it doesn't!
Remember this fun from 2004? http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html
This is old news brought to the forefront by a desperate Senator trying to keep his seat.
Posted by: Shelby Tse at June 22, 2006 02:07 PM (rCAIM)
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Maybe this will clear it up for you:
From the Fox News report:
' a senior Defense Department official pointed out that the chemical weapons were not in useable conditions.
This does not reflect a capacity that was built up after 1991," the official said, adding the munitions "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war."'
Posted by: Blah at June 22, 2006 04:22 PM (jFIp4)
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Mustard gas and several of the binary nerve agents such as those in shells could easly be reused. I wonder why the pentagon is lying about this. Infact mustard gas from WW1 was still messing people up in Ypres France in the 90's.
Posted by: lip at June 22, 2006 05:27 PM (EJHD4)
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The only way certain people will believe their eyes is when gobs of people die in a massive gas attack in some fast food resturant and it becomes all so real, while people run for their lives and turn rush hour into a riot, then the people will demand that we nuke Saudi Arabia or demand Osama bin Laden surrender or we go back to cold war status with the Russians.
It all began with Reagan saying 'Tear Down this wall " to Gorbachev.
Heh heh..
Liberals, why I won't ever vote Democrat again.
Posted by: GOPLad at June 22, 2006 07:52 PM (NkWuA)
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the chemical weapons were not in useable conditions
Yea, binaries are like that -- gotta mix'em first...and that only happens in flight.
They weren't being shot out of cannon, ergo they weren't "usable". Perfect tautological moonbat logic.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 24, 2006 04:04 PM (M0Kdm)
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I honestly believe that our media should be OBLIGATED to report honestly and fairly. I feel that the finding of these weapons were just swept under the carpet by the US media which proves BIAS and that we cannot TRUST anything that they report. God pray for us... we need the freedom of speech but we need to know the truth and facts if we can't trust our media to do this... what is to become of us... will our government begin having to control the media like other communist and dictatorship countries?
Posted by: LP at July 06, 2006 09:26 AM (JDV0e)
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June 21, 2006
Jeep Jihadi to Plead Guilty
Via the
News & Observer:
The man accused of driving a rented SUV onto the UNC campus in March and striking nine people told a judge he plans to plead guilty to the charges against him.
Mohammed Taheri-Azar entered the courtroom this morning to ask that he be allowed to represent himself. A judge had ordered the public defender's office to work with him while it was determined whether he was competent.
But after being told he would have to submit to a psychiatric evaluation in order to do that, the 23-year-old said he would rather keep his court-appointed lawyer.
Taheri-Azar told Superior Court Judge Carl Fox he had met a few times with the psychiatrist and psychologist and "they don't appear to be very good psychologists and psychiatrists in my oinion[sic]."
Taheri-Azar has said in letters and in a 911 call that he wanted to kill people to avenge Muslim deaths around the world when he drove a rented SUV through The Pit, the main gathering spot on the UNC-Chapel Hill campus, March 3.
Do you think UNC-Chapel Hill will finally admit this was a homegrown Islamic terrorist attack?
Me neither.
Update: I've been told that it isn't unusual for Carolina graduates to refuse psychological evaluations, so perhaps we shouldn't read too much into that part of the story.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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If UNC students hadn't once talked about how bad Osama was, this young "freedom fighter" wouldn't have felt the need to run down other UNC students.
USA OUT OF UNC! NO BLOOD FOR EDUCATION!
Idiots!
Posted by: MCPO Airdale at June 21, 2006 12:44 PM (3nKvy)
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Why do we grant visas to people who openly hate our way of life?
Posted by: Tom TB at June 21, 2006 01:11 PM (y6n8O)
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Why do we grant visas to people who openly hate our way of life?
Because the State Department is reponsible for granting visas, and State hates our way of life, too.
Posted by: Robert Crawford at June 21, 2006 01:38 PM (1j9aH)
Posted by: Toog at June 21, 2006 03:18 PM (IJedl)
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A muslim retard in a see of retards!
Posted by: John Travolta at June 21, 2006 05:49 PM (Vtwo9)
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Higher Ground
When I came across this comment by Markos "Kos" Moulitsas via
LGF, I was momentarily
speechless:
There's a reason the Geneva Conventions exist. We've lost the moral high ground. What a fucking waste of a war.
Note I said, "momentarily."
You would think that Kos, as an Army veteran and a graduate of the Boston University School of Law, might have the inkling that what he states above is incorrect.
After all, the Geneva Convention was written to protect soldiers, militiamen, and civilians, not terrorists. As a matter of specific fact, groups such as terrorists seem specifically exempted from Geneva's protections [my bold]:
- Articles 1 and 2 cover which parties are bound by GCIII
- Article 2 specifies when the parties are bound by GCIII
- That any armed conflict between two or more "High Contracting Parties" is covered by GCIII;
- That it applies to occupations of a "High Contracting Party";
- That the relationship between the "High Contracting Parties" and a non-signatory, the party will remain bound until the non-signatory no longer acts under the strictures of the convention. "...Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof."
- Article 3 covers internal armed conflict (not of an international character) and it provides similar protections for combatants as those described in the rest of this document for a prisoner of war. That Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including POWs; shall in all circumstances be treated humanely. It also lays out some basic rules for the treatment of all people combatants and non-combatants alike. Article 3 also states that parties to the internal conflict should endeavour to bring into force, by means of special agreements, all or part of the other provisions of GCIII.
- Article 4 covers all conflicts not covered by Article 3 which are all conflicts of an international character. It defines prisoners of war to include:
- 4.1.1 Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict and members of militias of such armed forces
- 4.1.2 Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, provided that they fulfill all of the following conditions:
- that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
- that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance (there are limited exceptions to this among countries who observe the 1977 Protocol I);
- that of carrying arms openly;
- that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
- 4.1.3 Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
- 4.1.4 Civilians who have non-combat support roles with the military and who carry a vaild identity card issued by the military they support.
- 4.1.5 Merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.
- 4.1.6 Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.
- 4.3 makes explicit that Article 33 takes precedence for the treatment of medical personnel of the enemy and chaplains of the enemy.
At no point in the section above are terrorists granted protection by the Geneva Convention. Article 4.1.2 stipulates that groups to be granted Geneva rights as "militias or other volunteer corps" must fulfill "all of the following conditions."
- that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
- that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance (there are limited exceptions to this among countries who observe the 1977 Protocol I);
- that of carrying arms openly;
- that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
Islamic terrorists, under the guise of al Qaeda or the insurgent Mujahedeen Shura Council, have never, at any point in the war, fulfilled these required four conditions, and very rarely meet even one. By definition, they are therefore exempted from Geneva's protections, and can be—quite legally—shot on sight.
As Jonah Goldberg notes:
We've all seen countless WWII movies about how soldiers out of uniform can be shot as spies under the Geneva Convention. Well, all of al Qaeda's soldiers are spies. And they most emphatically do not provide their prisoners with ping-pong tables and dormitories. They cut off their heads and put the pictures on the Internet and TV. The same goes for Osama's allies and fellow travelers in Iraq.
The liberal punditocracy seems to think it's an obvious fact that the Geneva Convention should apply to the war on terrorism, even though the plain text of the Geneva Convention applies as much to the war on terror as it does to the battle between the Federation and the Klingon Empire.
By hiding among civilians, torturing and beheading captives, and acting like, well, terrorists, these people have, by their own actions, exempted themselves from Geneva's protections.
Kos states and apparently believes "we have lost the moral high ground" to the kind of barbarians who torture, mutilate, and kill their captives. This is the same Kos that said of American contractors killed, mutilate, burned and then hung from a bridge in Fallujah, "screw them."
It seems to me that Markos Moulitsas is the last person to be lecturing others about ground clearly so far above his reach.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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In 1944, during the battle of the bulge, German soldiers dressed in U.S. uniforms and driving captured jeeps tried to get past check points. All who were caught were executed immediately, same as soldiers in civilian dress. No Amnesty International, no Gitmo.
Posted by: Tom TB at June 21, 2006 01:38 PM (y6n8O)
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"We've all seen countless WWII movies..."
No, I think that might be the problem.
I don't think most people have seen these movies. I don't think most people have even a movie-superficial understanding of WWII history, much less a true historical perspective. Only the vaguest sketch is taught in public schools.
Alright, I admit it, I haven't even seen many WWII movies, unless you count the Pearl Harbor movie with Ben Afflick.
Posted by: Amber at June 21, 2006 09:12 PM (WYkdt)
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The UN issued a report in February titled "Situation of detainees at Guantánamo Bay."
Report located here:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/report/2006/guantanamo-detainees-report_un_060216.htm
The press covered the report and it's calls for the US to close Gitmo. What the press seems to have missed was this important note by the Chairperson of the working group that made the report:
"The Chairperson of the Working Group and the Special Rapporteur note that, while United States Armed Forces continue to be engaged in combat operations in Afghanistan as well as in other countries, they are not currently engaged in an international armed conflict between two Parties to the Third (POWs) and Fourth (civilians) Geneva Conventions. (B. 24 of the report)
In other words, the Geneva Conventions do not apply to these criminals, even if they meet all conditions of the Convention.
Posted by: Fred Fry at June 22, 2006 10:10 AM (JXdhy)
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Everyone should watch Sargeant York (Gary Cooper) and Patton (George C. Scott). There are many more, but these two films say more about who we are and what we stand for when war becomes necessary than most. The war journal of Alvin York is available on line, as well--a remarkable, edifying read.
Posted by: AyUaxe at June 22, 2006 10:38 AM (Pp2XL)
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My blogging partner, Old soldier, linked to you on his latest post because he admired it. You have hit the nail on the head here, especially with the comment that "it seems to me that Markos Maulitsas is the lasts person to be lecturing others about ground clearly so far above his reach." Exactly!
Posted by: Gayle at June 22, 2006 09:26 PM (dkZlV)
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Murtha's Haditha Cover-Up Story Exposed As A Lie
At least one part of Congressman John Murtha's Haditha story has now been conclusively debunked.
Murtha had maintained that the incident that culminated in the deaths of up to 24 Iraqi civilians at the hands of Marines after a fatal convoy ambush had been covered up:
Mr Murtha, himself a former Marine, charged that US military authorities had paid compensation to the families of the victims, indicating they had assumed responsibility for the deaths. "They paid people $1,500 to $2,500. This doesn't happen unless it comes at the highest authority," Mr Murtha told CNN.
Asked if he meant victims' compensation, Mr Murtha said: "Yes. And that doesn't happen ... if it's an explosive device."
Mr Murtha repeated his accusation that the Marines had sought to cover up the killings."This is what worries me. We're fighting a war about America's ideals and democracy's ideas and something like this happens, they try to cover it up," he said. "It is as bad as Abu Ghraib, if not worse."
An independent Army General who investigated the charges of a cover-up has completed his report, and concludes otherwise:
The general charged with investigating whether Marines tried to cover up the killing of 24 civilians in Haditha has completed his report, finding that Marine officers failed to ask the right questions, an official close to the investigation said Friday.
Nothing in the report points to a "knowing cover-up" of the facts by the officers supervising the Marines involved in the November incident, the official said. Rather, he said, officers from the company level through the staff of the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Force in Baghdad failed to demand "a thorough explanation" of what happened in Haditha.
I imagine many netroots liberals reading this account published in the L.A. Times will immediately dismiss the report as a whitewash, saying that though an Army General investigated a Marine incident, it is still a military cover-up.
But never fear. They still support the troops.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Go to the local papers in Murtha's district (PA-12) and you will see none of this. The liberal editors ensure that anything that embaraasses "Fat Jack" is neither seen nor heard by the sheeple that vote for him.
Posted by: MCPO Airdale at June 21, 2006 10:04 AM (3nKvy)
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060621/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq Saddams 3rd LAWYER KILLED!!!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060621/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_abduction_3 85 Iraqis kidnapped from work!!!
We just about have a peaceful stable democracy with respect for the rule of law!!!! Well maybe next decade....after we spend another $15000 per Iraqi!!!!
Hero Jack
Posted by: Murtha at June 21, 2006 11:15 AM (vrOoK)
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I'm not a Murtha fan, nor do I claim the Marines are guilty of anything, but the Army general's report doesn't prove there wasn't a coverup on the part of the Marines.
A coverup can consist of steps taken to hide evidence, but it can also consist of failing to take action, the result of which results in the evidence remaining hidden from view. It doesn't stretch the imagination to think that quite often (in the military, as well as in general) questions aren't asked because the questioner doesn't really want to hear a truthful answer... and because the questioner doesn't want to put the person(s) being questioned in a position where they lie.
Posted by: steve sturm at June 21, 2006 11:44 AM (bZSI1)
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grantman - If people like you had their way, we would have lost WWII after the fall of the Phillipines and Singapore.
Posted by: MCPO Airdale at June 21, 2006 12:47 PM (3nKvy)
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Mcpo Airdale,
If people like you had your way we would STILL be bogged down in Viet Nam and bankrupt as a nation. After 4 years we were not losing in the Phillipines. Dec 7 1941 Dec 7 1945...The war was over we had won!!!! After 4 years in this war under this leadership, we have created enemies faster than we have killed them.
If everything in your world translates to WW2 (doubtful analogy to today)I'll bite. I would stop complaining for a year if: ANYONE IN THIS ADMIN HAD THE COURAGE OF DDE, who in the run up to d-day famously wrote two letters 1.IF IT suceeded congratulating everbody blah blah 2. IF IT FAILED...he was resigning his command immediatly!!! Even the biggest admin backer must admit that there has been plenty of underacheivment and miscalculation but yet accountiblity!!! ....just "medals of freedom" for the people who screwed up the worst. Who pays the price ...just the taxpayers and the troops.
Posted by: grantman at June 21, 2006 09:46 PM (QRIdq)
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Grantman - Write me back when you become one of, "the troops". 2003 -2006 isn't 4 years in my universe but, then again, I don't know where you live.
The main problem in concluding this conflict are the restrictive ROE imposed on the troops (that's Rules of Engagement grantman). Additionally, martial law should be declared within the Sunni Triangle with "shoot to kill" orders after curfew. Those are just my suggestions but, Yeah, nobody asked me.
Posted by: MCPO Airdale at June 22, 2006 04:20 PM (3nKvy)
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June 20, 2006
False Equivalation
Will all the liberals out there equivalating how Americans treat captured terrorists with how terrorists treat those unlucky souls they capture, please take the time to remind me when that last time was American soldiers did
anything like this:
The bodies of two U.S. soldiers found in Iraq Monday night were mutilated and booby-trapped, military sources said Tuesday.
Pfc. Kristian Menchaca and Pfc. Thomas L. Tucker went missing after a Friday attack on a traffic control checkpoint in Yusufiya, 12 miles (20 km) south of Baghdad.
The sources said the two men had suffered severe trauma.
The bodies also had been desecrated, and a visual identification was impossible -- part of the reason DNA testing was being conducted to verify their identities, the sources said.
A tip from Iraqi civilians led officials to the bodies, military sources told CNN. The discovery was made about 7:30 p.m. Monday.
Not only were the bodies booby-trapped, but homemade bombs also lined the road leading to the victims, an apparent effort to complicate recovery efforts and target recovery teams, the sources said.
It took troops 12 hours to clear the area of roadside bombs. One of the bombs exploded, but there were no injuries.
The terrorists captured two of our men, and what steps did they take?
The did not take them to a tropical island where captives are so well fed that almost all gain weight. Nor were they forced to put womens underwear on their heads, and they did not have fake blood thrown at them, or pull other fraternity/reality TV-grade tricks.
But I don't here liberals complaining about the actions of the terrorists, and how uncomfortable it must be for those captured by terrorists to be mauled with a power drill, or scorched with acetylene torches, or castrated, or beheaded, or hung, dangling from meat hooks while still alive, or raped with found objects.
No, the left can bear to shed no real, heart-felt words of sympathy, and they drop crocodile tears as they quickly use this occasion to bash both the Adminstration and the troops.
If we treat terrorists like anything other than privileged dinner guests it is torture by their sophomoric definition, and it's the President's fault. If terrorists, in turn, perform unspeakable acts of barbarity on our soldiers, it's still the President's fault.
Nothing is ever the fault of the terrorists, and the United States is never, ever in the right.
Do I question their patriotism?
No.
Where they stand is abundantly clear.
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1
You consider being held in Guantanamo as being on a tropical island? Technically you're right, Cuba is a tropical island. The prisoner's can't enjoy it though, as they are locked up. Nice try though.
You are also right that the terrorists who killed the soldiers are ultimately the ones at fault.
But you are wrong in accusing all liberals of not being sympathetic to the soldiers. Why? Because you are using what is called a "strawman". A mythical liberal figure that you invented, and has no bearing on what real liberal people believe.
Depending on where you live, maybe you should actually try to meet some real people who have left of center beliefs, even if they aren't radical leftists. You may be surprised in their mainstream beliefs.
Jaxebast
Jaxebast
Posted by: Jaxebad at June 20, 2006 03:24 PM (qudJu)
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Of course people, I use that word loosely, are locked up at GITMO. Where were our soldiers locked up and tortured at, probably some rat whole of a place. I am sure they did not enjoy any kind of a special meal, I am sure they were not given a Holy Bible and allowed to pray if they wanted before they were tortured and killed. I have been very upset about this today and I do not care what we have to do to get the job done just do it. I guess Al Quaida will prosecute and shackle these guys that did this because of the Geneva convention. And our liberal left Kennedy gets upset about underwear and a dog. How long will it take him to get these pictures of our Heroes and stand before the American people and wave his hand and shout that this should not be done. I reckon when hell freezes over. I am sick of the media and I am sick of liberals. Just turn our troops loose, they can handle the job.
Posted by: Kay at June 20, 2006 05:46 PM (y6n8O)
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Jaxebast - Tell it to Murtha, Reid, Kennedy, Durbin and Kerry. These are the leaders of your left of center party.
They call American soldiers terrorists, say that, ". . .the torture chambers of Abu Ghrab is under new, American management", that American Marines are "cold-blodded murderers" and that American interrogation was akin to Nazis. They lie and their acolytes on the left eat it like cake.
The left rationalizes real torture and beheadings by repeating the lies of YOUR leaders.
Posted by: MCPO Airdale at June 20, 2006 05:49 PM (3nKvy)
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And the "left" PC crowd wants a moral, ethical US military to engage the enemy with no colateral damage, and they want the Geneva Accords Articles of War extended to these sub-humans. I say it is time the military takes the stick out of their eye (the one placed there by the PC "left"), sticks that stick up the PC "left's" a$$ and moves out smartly treating the enemy with the same regard they have shown our men.
Posted by: Old Soldier at June 20, 2006 07:43 PM (owAN1)
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Old Soldier: Are you aware that in advocating a "gloves off" approach to dealing with terrorists you are endorsing a military strategy last seen in the abject failure that was the French experience in Algiers? The French employed an extensive torture policy against members of Algeria's National Liberation Front, and it totally backfired, turning the entire civiliain population against them. That's why the Pentagon screened the film The Battle of Algiers in 2003, with a flyer that said:
"How to win a battle against terrorism and lose the war of ideas. Children shoot soldiers at point-blank range. Women plant bombs in cafes. Soon the entire Arab population builds to a mad fervor. Sound familiar? The French have a plan. It succeeds tactically, but fails strategically. To understand why, come to a rare showing of this film." (See the Wikipedia entry for Battle of Algiers)
Google the name Paul Aussaresses, the French general in charge of intelligence during the Algerian war, and you will see that in a 60 Minutes interview in 2000 he still defends torture as a tactic is warfare, and recommends torturing Al-Queda. Do you really want the American military to follow not just a French military strategy, but a French military strategy that failed?
Posted by: Nate at June 20, 2006 08:07 PM (UlkGh)
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MCPO,
Care to attribute those accusations? Or do you just have personal vendettas against all of these senators?
For that matter, what do you think of Joe Lieberman, who also (despite popular misconceptions) has a very liberal voting record?
Posted by: Jaxebad at June 20, 2006 08:52 PM (qudJu)
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OS:
I assume you consider George Washington part of the "PC Left", from his quotation "Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to complain of our copying the brutal example of the British army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren." Interestingly enough, his advice paid off, as many of the said soldiers (from Germany) ended up becoming American citizens after the War.
If that's PC Leftism, I'm proud to be part of that tradition.
Posted by: Jaxebad at June 20, 2006 09:05 PM (qudJu)
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Why on God's green earth does the torture of two American boys remind you of "the left"? Can you not make your own decisions, as opposed to reacting to everything you consider "the left"?
I've never in my life known anyone who hated America or who approves of the death of American armed servicemen. I don't deny that such people exist, but they are freaks.
You all are enchanted by a bogeyman that O'Reilly, Coulter and Limbaugh describe to you. You are tilting at windmills.
You say you want to let our servicemen "finish the job". What do you mean? Get more aggressive? How can you be so naive as to think that when our servicemen kill cousins and brothers and husbands that their survivors will not be inclined to turn against us?
Wolfowitz said "There is no history of ethnic strife in Iraq". Bush said "Mission accomplished" in 2003. The war was predicated on WMD which didn't exist, and now you all are happy to pretend that spreading democracy was the goal all along.
It's clear that a lot of you just want revenge. Personally, I'd like the Iraqis to have a democracy, but to be honest it's not that high a priority. I'd like the innumerable dictatorships in Africa to be democracies too, but as a conservative I don't believe in nation building. Do you?
Another thing, if you disbelieve the MSM, then how about the Iraqi Prime Minister? Here's what he has to say, and it's awful: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinions/graphics/iraqdocs_061606.pdf.
Please, tell me what is the good news that the MSM is hiding from us.
I mourn for those boys. Did they die trying to root out terrorists? Then we will have failed them, because as I said the more Iraqis we kill, the more angry survivors we create. Did they die trying to set up a democracy in Iraq? In that case we failed them too. Civil strife has been heating up in that country for years, and it's coming to a boil. The Shia and Sunnis are killing eachother in Mosques, with drills, in assassinations every day. What chance is there for these people to trust eachother and form a government?
I mourn for America too, because we failed those boys. We sent them to die far away from home, for a lie, in a conflict that has no goal.
Posted by: Cyrus McElderry at June 21, 2006 12:47 AM (DixoE)
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Who kicked over the rock and let all the hippies out?
Posted by: bob at June 21, 2006 02:52 AM (YTjdv)
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Cyrus,
I can't speak for everyone but here is how I see it. The most vocal opponents of the war are on the "Left" and they get almost all of the air time in the news. The center sees mostly what the 'Left' media wants them to see. Fox is quoted as a right news station, that's the only one so the majority of news is anti-war, anti-Bush, and almost anti-American in nature. I am tired of the negative portrayal of America. These news channels are watched world wide and it has affected greatly how the world views us.
By their own documents, we are WINNING the ground war, but losing the PR war. Why?
We win every major engagement and almost every minor engagement, but people think we are losing. Why?
We have one of the lowest loss record of any war but people think it's comparable to Viet-Nam. Why?
We have politicians screaming to cut and run, pull out now, but when put to a vote it is trounced. Why?
Answer, all for the Press. Press has a lot of control over public opinion.
War is a terrible thing, young men and women dying is horrible. Setting up a stable democracy in that region will be invaluable as far as history is concerned. Is the price worth it?
Is freedom? When the little girls are allowed to get their diplomas, graduate and get a job without the requirement of a man, they may believe so.
Is Democracy? When the people can go to the poles and vote, actually voting in a candidate without thugs and guns pointed at them, they may believe so.
A more stable world? Democracy will spread in that region once rooted. Dictatorships are one voice telling the country what is good for them, Democracy is the voice of the people. Which is better?
We had help in our Revolutionary war, we helped others in WW1, WWII, Korea, and Viet Nam.
Don't the Iraqi deserve a chance at freedom? Shouldn't they have our help?
Posted by: Retired Navy at June 21, 2006 05:37 AM (elhVA)
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Cyrus and Jaxebad,
While I believe that there are centrist democrats, the party has been taken over by leftists, and rabid ones at that. They portray every move of our country as evil; every move of Bush as a lie; and blame Bush for everything.
My suggestion to you if you do not like being grouped in with such ilk, GET CONTROL OF YOUR OWN PARTY. Quite rolling around in your own rhetoric and do something other than complain that you are all being tarred and feathered with a broad brush. Move your party back to the center and maybe, just maybe, people will see what many of you stand for. Right now all we hear is the SOROS and VIPS pushed agendas of the far left, and that is not doing you any good whatsoever.
BTW - as to Lieberman. Check
this out.
Posted by: Specter at June 21, 2006 07:50 AM (ybfXM)
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When are the people on the LEFT going to realize that you cannot be PC with a group of people that don't even know the meaning of humane. Also why does the left think there were no weapons of mass destruction? I know of and have seen photos of chemical labs and weapons caches that have the ability to produce poision gas. They had plenty of time to move and hide there weapons and weapons programs. Syria has Saddam's weapons, they were the only country that Saddam trusted. Why do you think that even today there are bathist undercover death squads operating out of Syria abducting and killing Iraqi's in Jordan. They are trying to silence anyone that can tie the regime to the weapons. Cyrus, this is a just war, Saddam had ties to AQ, he was funding suicide bombers in Palistine, was helping fund Hamas. Use your common sense, think about it for a second. Helping Hamas blow up innocent Israeli's that would take the attention away from him. He was using the Palistinians as guinea pigs to further his own agenda. Those folks that are committing all these atrocities in Iraq most are not Iraqi's. Instead of condemming this war, try helping. I am at a loss for words. How can the Far Left (that controls the Dem. party.) fathom that if we leave Iraq and retreat into our borders that all the killings and beheadings will stop. We need to fight to WIN. I am in total agreement with O.S. & R.N. We have the finest Military in the world and its people on the Left and the Drive-By Media that is getting our boys killed. If you can't say anything good, don't say anything at all. They help fuel the insurgency with there Anti-American and Anti-war rhetoric. The Demorcratic party has No vision, No plan and No spine. They just want to be in control.... At any cost.
Posted by: Faithful Patriot at June 21, 2006 09:32 AM (elhVA)
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Old Soldier: Considering the original CY post was about the barbaric torture of two American soldiers, and your reponse was that it's time the military "moves out smartly treating the enemy with the same regard they have shown our men", it isn't "interpolation" or "false supposition" to assume you are advocating torture. It's the logical inference that flows from your comment and its context, and if that wasn't what you intended to say you should have been more precise in your language.
You say: "Let them prosecute this war as a war, not a game of chess."
This is a legitimate view, but not one that is especially compelling at this point in time. The other day I saw two former Marine generals interviewed about Iraq, and when both were asked point-blank: "What should we be doing militarily different right now?" they both answered the same: "Nothing- moving forward requires a political solution at this point in time." When in a discussion of military tactics you address only the military component of this war, and neglect the political elements (and potential political fall-out of things like bombings Mosques), you come off as uninformed that the battlefield has changed.
"We have the finest, best trained and equipped force to ever be fielded by America."
Agreed.
"Our military has never doctrinally been anything less than moral and ethical on and off the battlefield. For anyone to even imply such is absurd."
Wrong. I'll get you evidence if you want. The new doctrine established by Rumsfeld, Cheney, etc. clearly takes the gloves off and allows for things like waterboarding and other clear torture. This isn't the fault of our troops, it is the fault of an executive branch subverting the traditional military doctrine that has worked since George Washington.
"For anyone to even imply such is absurd. Those who have not served yet sit in the comfort of their living room and Monday morning quarterback our military are dispicable."
Why do you vets here come out with your service as a trump card in any debate? What does that have to do with anything? And are we to infer that those who don't serve in the military have no right to voice their opinion on military matters? What next: those who haven't played baseball can't criticize the local manager? Those who haven't been a news reporter in Iraq can't criticize the coverage about Iraq? I don't think you want to go there.
Posted by: Nate at June 21, 2006 10:24 AM (UlkGh)
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We should treat people better.....we are americans!!!!
Posted by: centrist at June 21, 2006 10:24 AM (vrOoK)
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Nate, it's because Monday Morning Quarterbacks like yourself that have never worn the uniform nor would put it on if your life depended on it who make statements such as the one you posted "Why do you vets here come out with your service as a trump card in any debate?" Because we have "been there done that". Vets are the subject matter experts unless you served you can only bloviate and potificate. You made a comparison to sports, this is not a game. I served my counrty and still serve her today. I and like the rest of my fellow Veterans are proud of our service and we respect our brethren. You know the ones that came before us who died and continue to die for the likes of you who question our Honor, Beliefs and our Patriotism. Murtha and Kerry put their own political ambitions ahead of what was right and just. The left always wants to invoke Vietnam. You forget or choose not to recognize the fact that the left were the ones who would not recognize the Vets when they came home, spit on them and called them "Baby Killers." One of those was Kerry, he was a traitor. He had no right to speak for the Vets nor the right to testify to the so called atrocities that he supposedly witnessed. He wrote himself up for the Three Purple Hearts, used the system to get back to the states to start his political career. Why does he not sign the form 180 releasing his record? Because it will show his B.S. record. Murtha was in the rear with the gear. Freedom Isn't Free. I can only wish liberals would realize that.
Posted by: Faithful Patriot at June 21, 2006 11:10 AM (elhVA)
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Nate,
I don't use my service as a trump card. I only speak of my experience, that I use as a trump card. I don't talk ground war tactics because I didn't live that. I do know that bad press is a let down for the folks in uniform, I lived that. I know for a fact that when I was in a different country and some politician or other spouted crap out of the corner of his mouth about that country, or our country's dealings with them, that it made things really tense for us there, I lived that.
My service was just that, my service. My knowledge, take or leave it, is from what I lived.
Posted by: Retired Navy at June 21, 2006 11:19 AM (elhVA)
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FYI,
GrantMan/Murtha/Centrist has just had his IP banned for "sock-puppeting."
For those of you not familiar with the term, sock-puppeting is the practice of duplicitously posting under multiple screen names. LA Times columnist/blogger Michael Hiltzik recently lost his blog (though not his column) for the same practice, which is
roughly defined as "using pseudonyms to bolster his own opinions and belittle those of his detractors."
I do not mind people using anonymous identities or pseudonyms as most posters here do, but I do not condone and will strongly lash out against those who abuse the capability to build strawmen posters who support their views.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 21, 2006 11:33 AM (g5Nba)
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Specter,
Here's the thing.
I don't think the Democratic Party
has been taken over by "rabid leftists". Harry Reid sure isn't one. Seeing as how the party is actively recruiting centrists like Bob Casey for the Senate, and is supporting Lieberman in his primary bid, I think it's quite clear that the party is not moving leftwards at this time.
So when conservative blogggers think that Reid, Kerry, Rahm Emanuel, et al. are part of the "rabid left", and keep confusing the DNC and the DLC, it's due to the fact that they are oblivious to the nature of the Democratic Party. If they had someone like Dennis Kucinich in mind, that may be more accurate (though I wouldn't call him "rabid", as that's just a crass insult, he is definitely classified as "hard left"). Of course, he isn't a party leader.
As this relates to the war in Iraq, the result is that there is still quite a bit of disagreement in the party. I'm still hesistant towards the idea of immediate redeployment, but it is at least an alternative idea, as opposed to the vague "stay the course" maxim. And it sure as heck is more supportive of the troops than the idea of pardoning their killers, which some GOP Senators are in favor of.
Posted by: Jaxebad at June 21, 2006 11:53 AM (qudJu)
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Jaxebad,
Let's see...Kerry has posted at KOS. I guess he doesn't embrace the left. Howard Dean is the leader of the DNC. He doesn't embrace the far left either I suppose - as calm and rational as he always is. Murtha calls for withdrawal...and gets banged for it. Murtha hangs with Code Pink - the group who sent money to the Iraqi "freedom fighters" and protest the war in sight of Bethesda. Left. Reid demonizes republicans for abramoff even though he took $68K. Jefferson gets caught with $90K "cold cash" in his possession, but doesn't take the high road of stepping down. Kerry calls for withdrawal by the end of the year and gets shot down. All far left postitions. Sorry...take back your own party.
Posted by: Specter at June 21, 2006 12:45 PM (ybfXM)
20
I don't think voicing dissent about the war or our military's conduct of the war undermines the morale of the troops. It was perfectly appropriate for Bush to criticize our deployment of troops in the Balkans, and it is appropriate for those who see fit to criticize the deployment of troops in Iraq. The places where it isn't cool to express discontent the concerning the military or a war are places I don't want to live. (China, North Korea, Iran)
Military service can bring much-needed context to a discussion, but it in no way substitutes for sound reasoning. My dad, step-dad, several uncles, and both grandfathers served in the military, and not once in the many discussions over the years about wars past and present did any one of them present their service as something that gave their view more weight than those family members who didn't serve.
Specifically regarding my dad, there were two things that really bothered him when he was out in the field in Vietnam:
1) That back home most people seemed to go about their ordinary lives as though a war wasn't even going on.
2) That the particular military strategy he was involved in of walking out in the jungle waiting to draw enemy fire so they could radio the planes where to bomb- SUCKED!
Both of these things bothered him more than people criticizing the war, and you could even say that the protesters understood these issues better than anyone else.
Posted by: Nate at June 21, 2006 01:42 PM (UlkGh)
21
Well Nate,
My nephew and my brother in law just returned from Iraq, they both told me that the negative press and the constant brow-beating that is happening to the military is a big morale let-down to the troops over there. They also said that it does in fact make the terrorists more bold. They are now playing to the press, not to win.
That's this war, not those in the past I am talking about.
Here is an interesting column you may like (or not)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/18/AR2006061800900.html
No matter what we do as a nation, we will not be liked by all.
Shouldn't we stick to gether as a nation though? There are bad guys out there and they don't like us.
Posted by: Retired Navy at June 21, 2006 02:09 PM (y67bA)
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Old Soldier, I don't think he will ever get it. Unfortunately, there are too many like him in this day and age.
Posted by: Retired Navy at June 21, 2006 05:58 PM (uPytR)
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Okay, let's pull back for a moment.
Retired Navy: I don't doubt that it's tough to be a soldier over there right now, and that it would be preferable to have a united country at one's back. But life doesn't work out perfectly, and I think that it is better to have a divided country debating it's way towards a strategy that will work rather than have a country united behind a failed strategy.
Old Soldier:
I wasn't citing my family members' military service to bolster my own association with the military. I was showing that it's possible to have these kinds of discussions without using the "I served, so don't question me!" line of argument. I'm sorry you those particular protesters treated you that way, and I'm sure if I expereinced what you went through I might be as angry as you.
I wish I could speak about the war withoug doing so in such personal terms, but that's often a major factor how I shape my views about war, and it certainly seems so for those here who have served.
Yes, I didn't serve, and it increasingly looks like I never will. So I'll give you three people in my family who did serve, and how they influence my views.
a) My dad. Drafted for Vietnam. Hit by grenade in last month of his tour. The man in front of him died that day. Still has shrapnel all over his body. Very liberal. Voted for Nader in 2000. Supported Afghanistan war, not Iraq war.
b) My 2nd Cousin. Underwater explosives specialist in Navy in Vietnam. Saw comrades die. Very strong Republican and Bush supporter, but in general low-key about it. Willing to debate the current Iraq war, which he very much supports, with all the younger people in our family, who are generally more liberal, and do so in a friendly manner.
c) My Uncle. Used connections to get into CA national guard during Vietnam. Huge Republican and Bush supporter, very vocal about it. Tells his small children that Kerry hates America and is a coward, and they go around spouting this others. Always going on about supporting the troops.
It seems to me everyone is this comment section should be united in respecting (a) and (b) while seeing (c) as something of a joke. Yet you guys often come off as supporting (b) and (c), and seeing (a) as something anti-American. The genuine Americans are (a) and (b) as far as I'm concerned, and (c) is the ugly American.
Am I wrong? I don't understand why, as much as you may disagree with Kerry or Murtha, you denigrate them when they are attacked by people like Cheney and Bush who did not put in the time to earn respect on military affairs.
Posted by: Nate at June 21, 2006 06:00 PM (UlkGh)
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Nate, I do not want to pursue this conversation on CY's site. Click
here and post a comment using your real email address and I will contact you; that is if you desire to continue to converse.
Posted by: Old Soldier at June 21, 2006 09:08 PM (owAN1)
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Jax, no matter how the left spins it by calling for a re-deployment. It is Cut and Run. Where are they going to re-deploy anyway? Like I stated above. When the Left has a Vision, a Plan, and a Spine then you can talk all you want. Until that time its all re-hash. Regurgitated tripe from the left, if you remember how tough they were with the North Koreans appease the little pot bellied pig and what did it get us? Or negotiate our way out of the Iran hostage situation. Negotiation is great while your not languishing in a Islamic extremist gulag. Good media coverage though. Clintons admin. got all those Army Rangers killed in Mogadishu, couldn't use AC130 gunshipÂ’s "To much Media". I don't blame a democrat, I blame your leadership. The left does not have any leaders, they have hand wringer and manipulators. Look at Hillary how far she has moved to the right. All to get elected. Its not what she believes, its about your vote. Have you noticed that they have abandoned the "Culture of corruption" mantra. They are just as bad as the right. Wipe the sleep from your eyes and smell the coffee. ItÂ’s all about regaining power and telling you what to do and how to do it. CONTROL, YIKES!!!! It makes no difference if we leave the Middle East to their own demise they are going to hate us anyway because we are the Great Satan. Oh, BTW Harry Reid is idiot along with Pelosi. If they get much farther to the left they will need a boat to get back. As Specter stated you guys need to take control of your party. Stop letting these so called concerned citizens lead you around by the collective noses.
Posted by: Faithful Patriot at June 26, 2006 06:35 AM (nFSnk)
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Pat Dollard, former Hollywood agent turned Iraq War documentary filmmaker
needs your help:
I gave it all up, my life and my income, to serve my country in the War in Terror, with the one weapon a 42 year old civilian like me could use: a camera. I'm bleeding my life savings dry, and we all need your help with finishing funds for the project. I may soon have to go back to Ramadi to cover a potential large operation in the city ala Fallujah. It's a risk, as usual, that I'm willing to take. Any donation you can make towards "Young Americans" will be greatly appreciated, and more importantly, will have a huge impact on America
by helping to balance out the non-stop BS liberal message we are all drowning in. All contributors, if requested, will be named in the end title sequence with a shared Associate Producer credit. Please rally around the project, the Marines, and America.
At my request Pat set up a Paypal account (via the link above), which will allow you to help contribute to the completion of this project. Please consider doing so. Every dollar helps Pat get one step closer to finishing a real reality series that will show America the war in Iraq as fought by the Marines that the mainstream media would never dare show you.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Go to the pentegon for funding!!!!!! They have had fake news stories planted all over the world....i'm sure they would fund something like this.
After 4 years and spending $15000 per Iraqi (and counting) they fact that we should have to work to show "the good news" is a joke.
If you think the US media is bad....follow events in the media of the nations "we are liberating"
Posted by: centrist at June 21, 2006 10:16 AM (vrOoK)
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Bodies of Missing Soldiers Apparently Found
Sadly, I think this is
what we expected:
A high-ranking official with the Iraqi Defense Ministry told CNN on Tuesday that the bodies of two missing U.S. soldiers were found Saturday south of Baghdad.
No more details were immediately available.
"Two bodies have been found," Maj. William Wilhoite, spokesman for Multi-National Forces-Iraq, told CNN.
"We haven't made any confirmation if they're the two U.S. soldiers we're looking for."
He said he did not know whether the bodies showed signs of torture. "I haven't heard anything through our official channels," he said.
"Obviously, before we made any announcement, if it was our soldiers, we'd have to make notification to the families," Wilhoite said.
Pfc. Kristian Menchaca, 23, of Houston, Texas, and Pfc. Thomas L. Tucker, 25, of Madras, Oregon, went missing Friday after an attack on a traffic checkpoint near the town of Yusufiya, 12 miles (20 km) south of Baghdad.
The Washington Post reports that the two men had been tortured:
Two U.S. soldiers missing since an attack on a checkpoint last week have been found dead near a power plant in Yusifiyah, south of Baghdad, according to an Iraqi defense official.
Maj. Gen. Abdul Aziz Muhammed-Jassim, head of operations at the Iraqi Ministry of Defense, said the soldiers had been "barbarically" killed and that there were traces of torture on their bodies.
As I predicted yesterday, the media quickly found their anti-war, anti-Bush soundbite:
The news is going to be heartbreaking for my family," Menchaca's uncle, Ken MacKenzie, told NBC's "Today" show.
He said the United States should have paid a ransom for the two soldiers from money seized from Saddam Hussein.
"I think the U.S. was too slow to react to this," MacKenzie said. "Because the U.S. did not have a plan in place, my nephew has paid with his life."
MacKenzie is entitled to grieve, but he cannot blame this on anyone other than the terrorists. Today Show host Matt Lauer even called him on it.
Once his nephew surrendered he was a dead man, and there was nothing, no "plan" or bribe that would have changed this outcome.
The terrorists of the Mujahedeen Shura Council probably think they have scored a victory, and indeed, in the short-term, they have. They can claim that after three years of war, they finally captured and killed a grand total of three U.S. soldiers. Accounts of the capture and killing of U.S. soldiers will receive a great amount of press worldwide. Arab media will likely present the deaths as a thinly veiled triumph, and the western media will use it as an opportunity to once again call for disengagement, as will many Democrats.
But these killings will not be received favorably by the U.S. military in Iraq, which will likely step up operations to hunt down and destroy terror and insurgent cells operating in this part of Iraq. Though official orders will not be given, perhaps U.S. forces will not be so inclined to take prisoners after this incident. Insurgents and their al Qaeda allies set the tone of giving U.S. forces no quarter when they took prisoners.
They made a huge mistake.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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There are some very pissed off screaming eagles ready to place the Ace of Spades in the appropriate place on any terrorist they obtain.
Posted by: bman at June 20, 2006 09:39 AM (sHmkd)
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I think the media has been both better and worse than you suggest. At
NewsBusters the transcript of the MacKenzie interview shows Matt Lauer (?!) stood up for good sense and shot down MacKenzie's suggestions.
However, the Post article you link to cannot help but bring up the murder charges brought against 3 soliers yesterday, and even works in the Italian indictment for the killing the intelligence agent that tried to rush a U.S. checkpoint.
Posted by: McKreck at June 20, 2006 11:10 AM (0Uc5D)
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What's funny is that we're winning this war despite what the media would like to portray.
Great post.
Aloha,
Jeff
Posted by: jeff at June 20, 2006 11:54 AM (eKJDe)
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When will the left understand that we are not fighting soldiers in Iraq, we are fighting 7th century animals.
American policy is NOT responsible for what happened to these young American warriors. Islamists have been torturing and beheading prisoners since the inception of their "religion".
Posted by: MCPO Airdale at June 20, 2006 11:57 AM (3nKvy)
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I want to know something. In Abu Ghrab, Gitmo, Haditha and other places, even the hint of infraction brings out detailed investigation.
I've never heard *ANYBODY* from al Qaeda or Mujahedeen Shura Council bring any of their "soldiers" up on Geneva charges. Gee, with suicide bombers killing civilians, beheadings and general crap that has been done by them, you know their leaders don't give a damn about the Geneva Convention and rules of war.
This is the difference between us and them. We believe in righting wrongs, even if it has been done by one of us. We believe in instilling justice by the rule of law and protection of the weak from the strong.
For the barbarians who caused the deaths of the servicemen, may hell be too good for you.
Posted by: Dave at June 20, 2006 03:08 PM (ptid4)
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I'm about to start the book by Lieutenant Pantano who was prosecuted for murder by the Marines for shooting two men he suspected of being terrorists, at a checkpoint. Maybe the REMF JAG officer who prosecuted him should pay attention to this story. These kids got ambushed at a checkpint.
Posted by: Mike K at June 20, 2006 04:30 PM (xznvL)
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June 19, 2006
Cole's Shoals
Juan Cole, the "scholarship-lite," questionably Arabic-fluent professor passed over for a position by a school that even accepts the Taliban, bitterly attacked White House spokesman Tony Snow for rather innocuous response to question asked by CNN's Wolf Blitzer Sunday:
BLITZER: "Let's talk a little bit about troop withdrawal potentials for the U.S. military, about 130,000 U.S. forces in Iraq right now.
In our most recent CNN poll that came out this week, should the U.S. set a timetable to eventually withdraw troops from Iraq, 53 percent said yes; 41 percent said no.
Senator Dianne Feinstein wrote a piece in the San Francisco Chronicle today. She's going to be on this show, coming up.
She wrote this: "We have now been in Iraq for more than three years. And we believe that the time has come for that phased redeployment to begin. It is also time for the Bush administration to provide a schedule and timetable for the structured downsizing and redeployment of U.S. forces in Iraq."
"Does that make sense?"
SNOW: "The president understands people's impatience — not impatience but how a war can wear on a nation. He understands that. If somebody had taken a poll in the Battle of the Bulge, I dare say people would have said, wow, my goodness, what are we doing here?
But you cannot conduct a war based on polls. And you can't conduct this kind of activity. What you have to do — and the president's been clear about this — is take a look at the conditions on the ground. Let's think for a moment of the alternative.
Snow makes a self-evident point that no reporter thought to question: a major counteroffensive mounted by an enemy that you thought was on the verge of being beaten is—at the very least—a sobering experience, one that requires recalibration and reevaluation before the offensive continues.
Cole, for some reason infuriated with Snow's response, went off on a odd rant that predictably enough, blamed Bush:
The president of the United States is in some ways the nation's leading public historian. More people hear about American history from him than from virtually any other source, with the possible exception of Hollywood.
It has therefore been dispiriting to witness the falsehoods about American history consistently purveyed by the Bush administration. Bush and his officials have repeatedly made allegations that simply are not true, but they sin most grievously against the muse of Clio with their flat-footed and implausible analogies.
On Sunday, the most prominent among Bush's spokesmen from the ranks of Fox Cable News anchors, Tony Snow, did it again. He compared our current situation in Iraq to the Battle of the Bulge. This battle began in mid-December, 1944, a little over 3 years after the US entered the war. Snow also suggested that the American public was ready to throw in the towel at that point in the war!
Is the only way this tawdry administration can make itself feel good to defame the Greatest Generation? My late uncle used to tell us stories of how he fought at the Battle of the Bulge. Is Tony Snow saying he was a coward? That the Americans back at the homefront were?
Let' examine this outburst for a moment.
While I am certainly limited by having just a normal human circle of friends and acquaintances, I think I can honestly state that not one of them confuses the White House with the Smithsonian, nor do they think of the President as being "Curator in Chief."
Or, perhaps I merely was too young to have heard and appreciated FDR's fireside chats about the Punic Wars, where he boldly proclaimed:
"The only think we have to fear is: HUGE. FREAKING. ELEPHANTS."
Perhaps I missed LBJ's dissertation on the evolution of Peruvian pottery, where he
stated:
"Any jackass can stomp on some greenware, but it takes a good Moche to use a press mold."
Â…Or perhaps Presidents are more involved in making historic decisions than
mistranslating them. Juan Cole is, once again, on his own in his strange little world.
At no point would it appear to a rational person that Snow's hypothetical question of "what are we doing here?" could be stretched into a charge of defaming an entire generation. Nor does it seem likely one could reasonably conflate this question into calling for surrender, nor could an intelligent person misunderstand that question to be a statement labeling Cole's uncle (or anyone else) as a coward.
I'm sure Juan Cole has a point.
I'm just not sure that it's worth wading through the barren shoals of his mind to determine just what that point may be.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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While I cannot claim to be a student of anti-war movements, there was a strong isolationist/anti-war movement during WWII until we started shoring up the Soviet Union. Then it went quite dormant. By the Battle of the Bulge, there was more of a national sense of loss (not lost cause, just the loss of lives from the war) than there was a desire to cut-and-run. The nation was weary, but did not turn from its purpose.
Significant to WWII, and missing from the Iraq War, is that we had a declaration of war and a President who spoke to the people about shared sacrifice and the need for victory.
Posted by: Old_dawg at June 19, 2006 03:55 PM (7nc0l)
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I don't know Cole, nor do I care to....But, I would agree that comparing the war in Iraq to WWII is ludicrous. Anyone who believes they are similar is an idiot. Unless you want to state that both sides had guns and bombs and shot at each other.
Posted by: John Travolta at June 19, 2006 05:32 PM (Vtwo9)
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OK, let me get this straight. If we polled Americans during the Battle of the Bulge, and they wanted out, they would be cowards? So basically, Cole is saying we need to stay the course or we'll look like giant pussies. Better stay the course, then.
Posted by: Tim at June 19, 2006 09:31 PM (WiHUE)
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Travolta,
You're rather wide of the mark. Snow is not broadly equating WWII and the war in Iraq. He's using a familiar event showing a seemingly broken enemy suddenly resurgent wearing on public support to drive home the point that you don't make strategic decisions ie determine troop levels on the basis of public perception. Exactly how well do you think he would have gotten the point across with a reference to some skirmish in the Second Punic War? Hell, could half the audience even name the sides in that one? Snow used a relevant example to make one fairly narrow point. The only idiocy consists in trying to stretch the comparison well beyond what Snow clearly intended.
Posted by: niall at June 20, 2006 09:12 AM (sJxVL)
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al Qaeda Kidnapping Plays to the DNC
Via
Brietbart:
An umbrella group that includes al-Qaida in Iraq claimed in a Web statement Monday that it had kidnapped two U.S. soldiers reported missing south of Baghdad. There was no immediate confirmation that the statement was credible, although it appeared on a Web site often used by al-Qaida-linked groups.
U.S. officials have said they were trying to confirm whether the missing soldiers were kidnapped.
"Your brothers in the military wing of the Mujahedeen Shura Council kidnapped the two American soldiers near Youssifiya," the group said in a statement posted on an Islamic Web site.
The Web site did not name the soldiers.
The soldiers were reported missing Friday after insurgents attacked a checkpoint. The Defense Department identified the missing men as Pfc. Kristian Menchaca, 23, of Houston, and Pfc. Thomas L. Tucker, 25, of Madras, Ore.
The U.S. military said Monday that seven American troops have been wounded, three insurgents have been killed and 34 detained during an intensive search for the soldiers.
Maj. Gen. William Caldwell, a spokesman for U.S. forces in Iraq, said fighter jets, unmanned aerial vehicles and dive teams had been deployed to find the two men. They went missing Friday during an attack on their checkpoint in the volatile Sunni area south of Baghdad that left one of their comrades dead.
al-Zarqawi's killing and the wildly successful series of raids that followed were crippling both for al Qaeda in Iraq and for the increasingly panicked voices of anti-war Democrats after Bush's surprise visit to Baghdad. A military or political blow against U.S. forces in Iraq was desperately needed. This kidnapping of two American soliders—and I think it only safe to assume that this was planned as such from the beginning—can only be viewed as a much-needed political success for al Qaeda and its allies.
Frankly, I'm a bit disappointed that American commanders in Iraq didn't anticipate such an attempt and didn't better prepare their men for it. On a micro level, I surprised that the soldiers manning this checkpoint feel for a simple diversionary plan that has been used for thousands of years. It is a classic military tactic to use skirmishers to draw a defensive force away from the location it is guarding so that the now undermanned location can be then assaulted by an enemy force hidden nearby. This may not be the oldest trick in the book, but it certainly comes close.
Now we can anticipate a full-on media campaign by al Qaeda and the Democratic Party to be played out in the mainstream media, hopefully (from their perspective) blunting the impressive gains made against the terrorists in Iraq in the past two weeks.
The media, now having the names of these two soldiers, will begin stalking their families, probing for an image of a tearful wife or mother, hoping for an anti-war or anti-Bush soundbite [note: already there].
If we are unable to locate and free these two soldiers, it is quite likely that these terrorists will feature the soldiers in a propaganda video, perhaps decapitating them, which will then be released to al Jazeera, Reuters, and the Associated Press. It is perhaps the worst possible outcome, and one we must prepare to face based upon past treatment of prisoners by these terrorists.
In any event, be assured that Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and Dishonorable John Murtha will use these events as "evidence" of why we must beat a retreat from Iraq.
al Qaeda is no doubt counting on Democrats toutter those very sentiments, and the three leaders of the Defeat Party cited above are almost certain not to disappoint.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I've already heard liberals blaming the inevitable abuse of these soldiers on OUR not following the Geneva Conventions. Get ready for it. It's coming.
Posted by: Tony B at June 19, 2006 02:50 PM (51ksp)
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Who do you hate more the terrorists or the liberals? I think I hate the libs more cause I have to sit next to them on the bus and listen to them prattle on and on about their treasonous views.
What about y'all? Don't you hate the liberals more?
Posted by: Baptist Belle at June 19, 2006 03:15 PM (H9JPz)
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Baptist, come on. No contest. Headchoppers vs idiots. People who blow up innocents vs people who want to surrender to them. Keep some perspective.
Posted by: Tony B at June 19, 2006 05:23 PM (51ksp)
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What's the difference between a liberal traitor who wants the terrorists to win and a terrorist? They want the same thing, right?
Posted by: Baptist Belle at June 19, 2006 05:49 PM (H9JPz)
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This is what I'm talking about. Y'all don't agree?
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/6/13/142235.shtml
Ann Coulter Fights the Good Fight
Philip V. Brennan
Tuesday, June 13, 2006
There's a war on, and I don't mean the one in Iraq. It's been called the KultureKampf - the conflict between the traditional values of our culture and the nihilism of modern liberalism that renders just about everything but religious faith, the sanctity of the womb and patriotism, permissible.
In the last week - since June 6, 2006 (666) when her book "Godless" hit the bookstores, Ann Coulter became the ultimate bete noir of our times - and the target of CoulterKampf - the war to destroy liberalism's most dangerous enemy.
She has been castigated for being "mean," and "cruel" for "crossing the line," for failing to recognize the sacredness of four canonized liberal icons. She's "mean" and "cruel" because she blasphemed women elevated to secular sainthood by the church of liberalism, and "crossed a line" drawn by, and visible only to the liberal media and the dominant left wing of Democrat Party .
Here's what Ann wrote about meanness in her book "Slander," four years ago.
"A central component of liberal hate speech is to make paranoid accusations based on their own neurotic impulses such as calling Republicans angry, hate-filled and mean."
She went on to note that "liberals have compared conservatives to Down's syndrome children, wished them dead of cholesterol-induced heart attacks, malevolently attacked women for their looks, called Clarence Thomas every racist name in the book, repeatedly stated they 'hate' Republicans, and now - in addition - they say Republicans are 'mean'"
Today, it's Ann Coulter who's "mean."
In the 310 pages of her meticulously researched new book, Ann Coulter documents her assertion that liberalism has all the earmarks of a religion, ergo a bizarre one, and carefully deconstructs the dogmas of the church of liberalism. But critics, who one has every reason to believe haven't so much as cracked the pages of "Godless," have focused all their venom on one small segment of a long chapter on liberalism's use of sacred cows made immune from criticism by virtue of some personal suffering to promulgate their slanders and falsehoods.
There seems to be universal agreement among the nation's literati, right and left, that she went too far in her wholly justified attack on the Jersey Girls who cynically parlayed the 9/11 deaths of their husbands into an anti-Bush political cause. In all of the myriad attacks on Ann for zeroing in on these liberal icons, I have yet to read one word that challenges the accuracy of her criticism of these women. It's all about the very fact that she dared to tell the truth about the women and failed to understand that they bear the liberal seal of immunity from attack by virtue of their widowhood.
Now I will grant that the lady is hard-as-nails tough - I once told her she reminded me of Baodicea, fearsome queen of the Iceni who casually butchered a few Roman legions and almost drove the invading Romans out of Britain.
She takes no prisoners, and why should she? She's fighting a war in which every decent clear-thinking American should be an ally because this war is against a foe that would destroy every vestige of everything Americans have always held dear, and everything that has carried this nation to the pinnacle it occupies as history's wealthiest and most powerful nation.
At stake in this war is whether Americans will remain free or end up ground under the heels of the atheistic Marxist elite who are the hierarchy of the church of liberalism whose Vatican is the Democrat Party.
Ann knows it's a war, and she knows what it takes to win a war. She believes in what she's doing despite snide references to her marketing savvy and her ability to sell books by the tens of thousands, allegedly her sole motivation. It's not easy to stand and take the abuse the left hurls at her and she deserves the support and sympathy of the American people she seeks to alert to the dangers they face from the clergy and acolytes of the church of liberalism.
In her book "Slander," Ann exposed the catechism of the church of liberalism as one that includes hatred of Christians, guns, the profit motive, and political speech and an infatuation with abortion," etc.
I'm with her, all the way. As a veteran of the Marine Corps I see her as one of us - the few, the proud, the warriors who go into battle with verve and steely determination to win, even if it involves ... gasp ... being mean to the enemy.
Semper Fi, Ann. So, when do we declare war on the liberals? Isn't that what we are talking about here, or is just talk? Just wondering. If it's a war, we should treat it as such, is all I'm sayin'.
Posted by: Baptist Belle at June 19, 2006 06:01 PM (H9JPz)
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Baptist, Shhh. You're not supposed to talk about that. It's a secret till they give the signal.
Posted by: DJ from Omaha at June 20, 2006 02:14 AM (Vp1bn)
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via e-mail alert, the two missing soldiers have been found dead.
Posted by: markm at June 20, 2006 05:54 AM (T93rJ)
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Nagin Calls for National Guard
Via
Fox News:
Mayor Ray Nagin asked the governor Monday to send National Guard troops to patrol his city after a violent weekend in which five teenagers were shot to death.
City leaders convened a special meeting to voice outrage after the killings Saturday in an area near the central business district.
[snip]
Nagin asked Gov. Kathleen Blanco to send up to 300 National Guard troops and 60 state police officers to patrol the city. The City Council said it also would consider increasing overtime for police to put more officers on the street.
Upon hearing of the request, Pennsylvania Congressman John Murtha immediately called for the Louisiana National Guard to redeploy to Bangor, Maine.
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That was good... too funny!
Posted by: Chris at June 19, 2006 12:49 PM (5nZ7B)
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Fox News has a side item stating the killings appear to be drug-related. Big surprise.
Posted by: Cindi at June 19, 2006 03:39 PM (asVsU)
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If only we redeployed out of Iraq(like I said)...we would actually have enough forces to properly help out in New Orlean and defend the southern border of the US. Forget saving the $1000 per person per year we spend in Iraq with no end in sight.
Hero Jack
Posted by: Murtha at June 21, 2006 10:51 AM (vrOoK)
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FYI,
GrantMan/Murtha/Centrist has just had his IP banned for “sock-puppeting.” For those of you not familiar with the term, sock-puppeting is the practice of duplicitously posting under multiple screen names. LA Times columnist/blogger Michael Hiltzik recently lost his blog (though not his column) for the same practice, which is
roughly defined as "using pseudonyms to bolster his own opinions and belittle those of his detractors."
I do not mind people using anonymous identities or pseudonyms as most posters here do, but I do not condone and will strongly lash out against those who abuse the capability to build strawmen posters who support their views.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 21, 2006 11:32 AM (g5Nba)
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June 16, 2006
A Matter of Visibility
Eight-term Louisiana Congressman William Jefferson may have been
tossed off the influential Ways and Means Committee behind closed doors by his fellow Democrats, but he didn't go quietly. Jefferson and the Congressional Black Caucus, noting that a white Democrat, West Virginia Congressman Alan Mollohan, has been allowed to keep his seat while under investigation, implied that race may be an issue.
I would find the spectacle of a falling out between the Congressional Black Caucus and the Democratic Party an interesting turn of events as we go into the '06 elections, especially in light of the fact that black conservatives have a fair chance of picking up governorships in Pennsylvania and Ohio and a high-profile U.S. Senate Seat in Maryland. That said, I don't think the different treatment of Jefferson and Mollohan is as much an issue of race as it is one of visibility, and hence, politics.
When it comes right down to it, Alan Mollohan's alleged transgressions fly well below the radar of most people, even many of those of us who are very interested in politics. William Jefferson's circumstances, however, are anything but under the radar.
The public easily latched onto the mental image of foil-wrapped frozen stacks of bribe money found in Jefferson's freezer, and the furor over the raid on his Washington, D.C. offices surpassed even that. Fair or not, William Jefferson has quickly become the image in many people's mind when they think of corrupt politicians, and almost single-handedly killed the “culture of corruption” storyline Democrats wanted to use this fall.
Being a public relations liability for the Democratic Party in an election year has far more to do with his ouster than does the color of his skin.
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"William Jefferson has quickly become the image in many peopleÂ’s mind when they think of corrupt politicians"
You're using selective memory. Of all the congressional corruption that has come to light recently, Jefferson and Mollohan are the only Dems I know of, and both of them have been sanctioned.
It's not fair to say that the Dems ousted Jefferson and Mollohan for PR -- it was after all the right thing to do, and I'm glad they did it.
Look at the Repubs. Cunninham didn't quit until he pleaded quilty.
Jerry Lewis, R-CA is Chairman of the House Appropriations Committee. He sure looks guilty, yet he's in good standing. There's a defense contractor CEO named Tom Casey who claims the Lewis told him to give Bill Lowery stock options in exchange for Lewis passing on an earmark, and that's only the beginning.
You will be a better citizen of this country if you can let go of the childish notion that one party is god-like and the other is vile and useless. There are good and bad Democrats and Republicans.
Posted by: Cyrus McElderry at June 17, 2006 07:32 AM (DixoE)
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Of all the congressional corruption that has come to light recently, Jefferson and Mollohan are the only Dems I know of...
How quickly the left forgets why Alcee Hasting is a congressman rather than still a Federal judge.
Of course, now he's more careful about his corruption after having been impeached and removed as a judge.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 17, 2006 10:46 AM (LnS+d)
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Purple Avenger --
How quickly the left forgets why Alcee Hasting is a congressman rather than still a Federal judge.
Of course, now he's more careful about his corruption after having been impeached and removed as a judge.
I'm not sure who that is. Okay, there are three crooked Democrats. I don't doubt that there are a lot more. However the Dems are making clear steps to address their corruption, and it's wrong to call it PR.
By the way, Denny Hastert is a crook too. I wonder if they'll ask him to step down? By the way, I don't know much about the site this comes from; if what they say is factually wrong, fine, but don't give me any grief about the site being too liberal or whatever (I'm not a reader, I followed a link to it) without saying how the facts are incorrect. It sure looks damning.
Posted by: Cyrus McElderry at June 17, 2006 10:25 PM (DixoE)
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Dangit the link disappeared on me. Here it is again:
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/06/15/hastert-pictures-of-corruption/
Posted by: Cyrus McElderry at June 17, 2006 10:26 PM (DixoE)
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Mollohan went from about 500,000 to 26 million in four years. What is it that you think the public doesn't understand about this Conbgressman. While I have little use for tyhe BC in this case they may be right.
Posted by: Thomas J. Jackson at June 17, 2006 11:00 PM (A7X8u)
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If you don't know who
Alcee Hasting is, then you've been hiding uder a rock for many years.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 17, 2006 11:35 PM (LnS+d)
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Purple Avenger -- you see I'm not defending the Democrats, I'm attacking the Republicans. I can't even keep track of them any more: Frist, DeLay, Hastert, Lewis, Pombo, Ney, Safavian, Abramoff, Cunningham,... it just goes on and on and reaches congressional leadership and above.
I don't follow Florida's 23rd ditrict, but like I said, I'll assume you're right and that Hastings is a crook.
The Dems have made concrete steps to discipline Jefferson. The Republicans did nothing about all the guys above I mentioned. Go on and explain to me how the Dems are behind the corruption in Washington.
Posted by: Cyrus McElderry at June 18, 2006 10:50 AM (DixoE)
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Oh for crying out loud..........they're ALL crooks. If they weren't, they'd have REAL jobs like salesmen, managers, or crack dealers instead of megalomaniacal politicians. Let's get an amendment passed for Congressional term limits NOW and kill this nonsense for good.
Posted by: Thrill at June 18, 2006 05:31 PM (DYb4r)
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The Republicans did nothing about all the guys above I mentioned
Seems to me Cunningham recently checked into the Greybar hotel.
The Dems have made concrete steps to discipline Jefferson.
The man was caught red handed taking 100 large in cash. Concrete steps would be booting him out on his ass.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 18, 2006 06:12 PM (LnS+d)
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PA -- Cunningham quit congress the day he was indicted. His example serves my argument, not yours; he was obviously guilty and the Republican leadership should have leaned on him to quit, but they didn't do anything apparently.
I hope the Dems do lean on Jefferson to quit before he's indicted. I'm glad they stripped him of his committee.
I don't know what the rules are for forcing a congressman out.
Posted by: Cyrus McElderry at June 18, 2006 07:20 PM (DixoE)
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*snicker* You do realize that the words you attach to the linnk become bold, right CY? I loaded your site and 'tossed off' kinda jumped off the page.
I was thinking, "Good Lord, what is Jefferson doing
now!"
Posted by: Kevin at June 18, 2006 08:56 PM (+hkUo)
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My favorite line on this: "we judge Rep. Jefferson not by the color of his skin but by the content of his freezer."
Posted by: Foobarista at June 18, 2006 09:45 PM (0IxK6)
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Only one crooked democrat? Not according to documented offenses on NoAgenda.org . Extra edition, Read all about it. LMAO at the dim-wit's attempts to cover up their 'culture of corruption', blame it on the other guy rants. Easy money makes criminal out of a lot of people. Look at the leaders of the largest industries/stock markets in the 90's. Thousand of people who didn't need the money stole money from the investors, and a lot of it (World Com) was hyped by Algore as a good investment. If you're one of the hundreds of thousands that lost your retirement accounts and/or life saving to the 'Slick Willie' era criminals you know first hand how honest(sic) the dim-wits are.
Posted by: Scrapiron at June 19, 2006 11:33 AM (Ffvoi)
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Scrapiron -- I don't understand. I didn't say there was one crooked Dem.
How can you believe there's more Dem corruption now than Repub? That's ludicrous. Hastert, DeLay, Cunningham, Lewis, Ney, Pombo, Safavian, Libby, Abramoff... I can't even keep track, that's just off the top of my head.
I know Jefferson is a crook, and somebody said there's another one named Hastings.
What are you talking about?
Posted by: Cyrus McElderry at June 19, 2006 01:02 PM (DixoE)
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New Docs Link Saddam to Taliban
Despite the shrill cries to the contrary, the Iraqi War is part of the War on Terror, as occasional
C.Y. poster Ray Robinson shows with further analysis of newly-translated documents
linking Saddam with the Taliban (bold in original):
I am the one who started with this issue, the relation between Taliban and Iraq, and it is our idea. The brothers in Afghanistan are facing the pressure of America, and are struggling against America and aim to have some connections between Afghanistan and Iraq, and it is a good start to establish the relations with Iraq and Libya and our association has taken this responsibility upon her. I already met with Mr. the Vice-President and the previous head of the directorate, may God rest his soul (translator's note: apparently the head of the directorate passed away) and both proposed that Hekmatyar and the Taliban should get to an agreement. I spoke with the Taliban about this issue and they started meeting with delegations from the Islamic Party, and I met Mullah Omar and his reply was positive.
As a party, our stand is that there should be an agreement between the Taliban and the rest of the opposition, Shah Ahmad Massoud and Rabbani. And Mullah Omar said that we are looking towards this and that (not clear) and (not clear) and Ahmad Al Kilani and Jalal Al Din Hakkani do not oppose us. Therefore, Hekmatyar is on the positive way but we are in a war situation and that needs a lot of trust, and there are hurdles to this because he fought us and killed us and he has problems with the opposition in the North and with us. After repeated contacts we will reach an agreement, but in the form of steps. Concerning the relations with Iraq, he said that they are our brothers and Muslims and are facing pressures from America, like us and like Sudan and Libya. And he (Mullah Omar) desires to get closer relations with Iraq and that Iraq may help us in reducing our problems. Now we are facing America and Russia. He requested the possibility of Iraq intervening to build a friendship with Russia since Russia is no more the number one enemy. And we request Iraq's help from a brotherly point of view. They are ready for this matter and they prefer that the relation between Iraq and Taliban be an independent relation from Hekmatyar's relation with the Taliban. We want practical steps concerning this issue and especially the relationship with the Taliban and (not clear, but could be Iraq).
Robinson then supplies analysis of the translation, including this description of the meeting:
So it seems possible the IIS Chief died just prior to this meeting and the Maulana is meeting with the new IIS chief. The new IIS chief would have been Tahir Jalil Habbush al Tikriti, who according to the Multi-National Forces' Iraq Web site as of January, 2006 is still listed as “at large.” Of course, if he has not been captured, it is reasonable to assume he has not been interrogated.
Tahir Jalil Habbush al Tikriti came to public attention in December, 2003 when the Telegraph UK reported Terrorist Behind September 11th Strike was Trained by Saddam.
Details of Atta's visit to the Iraqi capital in the summer of 2001, just weeks before he launched the most devastating terrorist attack in U.S. history, are contained in a top secret memo written to Saddam Hussein, the then Iraqi president, by Tahir Jalil Habbush al-Tikriti, the former head of the Iraqi Intelligence Service.
The handwritten memo, a copy of which has been obtained exclusively by the Telegraph, is dated July 1, 2001 and provides a short resume of a three-day "work programme" Atta had undertaken at Abu Nidal's base in Baghdad.
In the memo, Habbush reports that Atta "displayed extraordinary effort" and demonstrated his ability to lead the team that would be "responsible for attacking the targets that we have agreed to destroy".
Atta, of course, led the 9/11 attacks.
Saddam to al Tikriti to Atta. A strong link from Iraq to 9/11. Add this to evidence that Saddam gave money and housing to Abdul Rahman Yasin, the 1993 World Trade Center bomb builder, and I'd say that you're looking at evidence that Saddam was linked to attacks on the World Trade Center not once, but twice.
"Illegal war?"
I think not.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
06:29 AM
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Atta was in Saudi Arabia and probably learned to read and write there. An attack on Riyuad is in order. He lived in San Diego and trained to fly in Florida. So maybe LA and Miami should be on the list. Clutching at straws, are we?
Posted by: Mike Meyer at June 16, 2006 01:50 PM (eaxjm)
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An attack on Riyuad is in order.
You're right.
He lived in San Diego and trained to fly in Florida. So maybe LA and Miami should be on the list.
Yeah, the U.S. government funds and shelters terrorists. Grasping at straws, indeed.
Posted by: Jordan at June 16, 2006 04:01 PM (pLJN7)
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LA, probably.
Miami? Islamofascist wouldn't stand a chance against the Cubans.
San Diego? Is that still part of the US?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 17, 2006 10:48 AM (LnS+d)
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San diego, I was born and raised there, my cousins still live there so I am sure its STILL AMERICAN. Say, Didn't the Brits have that phony yellow cake memo that Plame was outed over? Around the same time too?
Posted by: Mike Meyer at June 17, 2006 02:00 PM (vUlaD)
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MM:
You are just a wee bit confused on that particular memo. The phony memo was from Italy. amd it was an obvious forgery, but that surfaced in 2002 - after Wilson had returned from sipping tea with folks in Niger. Maybe you should take the time to read through the Report from the Senate Select Committee on Intelligece. You know, the one that reported that Joe Wilson had lied to them on several items, including the inconsistencies between what he told to CIA analysts/debriefers when he returned from Niger and what he wrote in his OP-ED piece in the New York Times in 2003. He told CIA officers during his debriefing that former government officials in Niger had advised him that Iraq
had tried to purchase yellow cake from them in 1999.
The information to which Bush referred in those famous 16 words had nothing to do with that earlier phony memo. It was directly from the Brits. Furthermore, the British Butler Commission later supported their earlier assessments long after the 16 words were spoken during the 2003 SOTU address.
You apparently don't read all that much, do you - unless it is something that directly attacks Bush or his administration. You probably have not read the bipartisan study on Intelligence that led up to the Iraq invasion. How about the writings of Hans Blix or David Kay? How about the three-volume Charles Duelfer Report on WMD developments in Iraq? How about the reports of the findings of 500 tons of raw uranium and 2 tons of enriched uranium found at the Iraqi nuclear storage facility and carted off to the US under the watchful eyes of the IAEC? It was reported in the New York Times - although not on page 1. Ya miss that too?
You really need to get out more ....
Posted by: Retired Spy at June 17, 2006 10:20 PM (Xw2ki)
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I loved Mike's comments. They were so gay. Did he get his intelligence from the Brokeback Secrets Academy or just got back briefed by Baghdad Bob. Talking about grasping Mike, watch those hands.
Posted by: Thomas J. Jackson at June 17, 2006 11:06 PM (A7X8u)
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June 15, 2006
John Murtha: Mortal Enemy of Military Justice
Almost a month ago
I ripped into ex-Marine John Murtha for unequivocally stating that a unit of Marines had "killed innocent civilians in cold blood" after an IED blast killed a fellow Marine in Haditha, Iraq.
I stated:
First off, it is unconscionable for any legislator to accuse U.S. military personnel of multiple counts of premeditated murder before an investigation into these charges is complete. Prosecutions must proceed at their own logical pace as evidence in the case dictates. Premature accusations by a public figure in such a case imposes an artificial timeline, endangering the accuracy and thoroughness of an investigation.
At the same time, such heated rhetoric as charges of murder of "innocent civilians in cold blood" is prejudicial against the defendants, poisoning public opinion against them. This would be an explosive charge in a civilian court, but to make such charges against members of the U.S. Military when they are engaged in military operations in that country is absolutely fissionable.
An attorney for one of the Haditha Marines apparently agrees, and states that if his client is charged, he will call Murtha as a witness:
A criminal defense attorney for a Marine under investigation in the Haditha killings says he will call a senior Democratic congressman as a trial witness, if his client is charged, to find out who told the lawmaker that U.S. troops are guilty of cold-blooded murder.
Attorney Neal A. Puckett told The Washington Times that Gen. Michael Hagee, the Marine commandant, briefed Rep. John P. Murtha, Pennsylvania Democrat, on the Nov. 19 killings of 24 Iraqis in the town north of Baghdad. Mr. Murtha later told reporters that the Marines were guilty of killing the civilians in "cold blood." Mr. Murtha said he based his statement on Marine commanders, whom he did not identify.
Mr. Puckett said such public comments from a congressman via senior Marines amount to "unlawful command influence." He said potential Marine jurors could be biased by the knowledge that their commandant, the Corps' top officer, thinks the Haditha Marines are guilty.
"Unlawful command influence." Let that sink in. According to United States vs. Gore, No. 03-6003, 60 MJ 178 (and summarized here), unlawful command influence:
- is recognized as the mortal enemy of military justice;
- tends to deprive service members of their constitutional rights;
- if directed against prospective defense witnesses, it transgresses the accused's right to have access to favorable evidence.
John Murtha took the extraordinary step of accusing Marines of a war crime before the investigation was complete, and perhaps has compromised justice in this process entirely. Someone should ask Murtha if his political grandstanding was worth becoming the "mortal enemy of military justice" and jeopardizing the constitutional rights of these Marines. Someone should, but they aren't likely to get an answer. According the author of the Times article, Murtha's spokesman did not return a call seeking comment.
Apparently too late, ex-Marine John Murtha has finally learned to shut up.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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According to Paul Hackett on the O'Reilly Factor earlier this week, Murtha's office is not responding to him either.
The local lefties here in Minnesota - a definite blue state - have already judged these marines, and we have had some pretty heated exchanges in the local newspaper opinion pages forum.
What a bunch of weasels. You can review some of the exchanges on this subject and others at
Echo Press
Posted by: Retired Spy at June 15, 2006 02:06 PM (Xw2ki)
2
Everyone concerned about the treatment of the Marines and Sailor alleged to have committed the Haditha 'massacre' and at the pending charges against Cpl. Josh Belile please write your representatives in Congress as well as the Commandant of the Marine Corps expressing your objections. You can get the Commandant's email address at Allahpundit in the article about the above or at HOTAIR (MM's site). Congress.org gives the email addresses of all reps in Congress and is easy to use. If we all express ourselves we can help these brave young warriors.
Posted by: Jim P at June 15, 2006 04:08 PM (bgRAn)
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Too many times "undue command influence" or "unlawful command influence" is a direct result of a congressional inquiry. You cannot believe the hoops the military will jump through for the congress. After all, they hold the purse strings that fund (or don't) the necessary and desired programs of the military. I've seen it too many times.
Murtha being an ex-Marine, and a retired Colonel should be fully aware of the undue pressure his comments would place on the Navy (NCIS) and USMC command chain involved in investigating and potentially prosecuting this incident. There can be but one reason to blatantly disregard the influence his comments would yield - political posturing. What a guy. Semper fi!
Posted by: Old Soldier at June 15, 2006 06:10 PM (owAN1)
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NOW YOU'RE GETTING SOMEWHERE, actually quoting CASE LAW. That has substance and a standing in LAW, as opposed to ranting.
Posted by: Mike Meyer at June 16, 2006 01:57 PM (eaxjm)
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Who is this Mike Meyer twit? Another Troll from the KOS Kiddies' Summer Camp?
Posted by: Retired Spy at June 16, 2006 03:02 PM (Xw2ki)
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Murtha has tons of contacts in the military, and when he speaks out his is often giving voice to people whose voices are otherwise squelched by the GOP puppets that pass for military brass at present. If Murtha doesn't speak out and put out some kind of pressure for a serious investigation, it won't happen.
Murtha cares about the military more than all the GOP members of Congress, who use it purely to further their political and ideological ends and like to have a few soldiers or Marines on hand for their fundraisers. Sometimes caring means showing tough love, and it's a good thing we have people like Murtha who are willing to stand up to the raving crowd and voice the appropriate constructive criticism.
Posted by: Nate at June 16, 2006 04:34 PM (UlkGh)
Posted by: GOP VOTER at June 17, 2006 03:02 AM (c90Mq)
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Nate,
If Murtha cares for the military more than others, he is definately going about it the wrong way. He is saying the Military can't do it's job, is locked in a quagmire that it can't win (which it is winning), calling men who were on the front line "Cold Blooded Murderers" when he wasn't there, nor was his source. He started calling them that well after the investigations have begun and so far they haven't found out what Murtha has (I wonder who his REAL informant is).
Murtha is a blight to the military, ask some of the Vets that post here.
Posted by: Retired Navy at June 17, 2006 07:48 AM (uPytR)
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a) Murtha is saying we don't belong in a Civil War, nor do should soldiers and Marines be performing an elaborate social engineering project in perhaps the least hospitable place on the planet. The US military was trained to fight, not nation-build. Conservatives used to understand this concept.
b) Murtha's exact quote is that Marines “killed innocent civilians in cold blood”. This is a statement about a specific incident, and doesn't contain any broad characterization of the Marines in question as "murderers". His quote says more about the harsh conditions in Iraq, which most reasonable people see as potentially leading to these types of incidents, than it does about the character of the Marines in question.
c) Given that you don't know who Murtha's source was, how do you know that source wasn't there, or that the source didn't have solid knowledge of what did happen?
a) Given the ideological bent of this website, the Vets that post here probably don't represent the diverse views in the US military. Vets are like the rest of us when it comes to politics.
Posted by: Nate at June 17, 2006 01:22 PM (UlkGh)
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Murtha is saying we don't belong in a Civil War
Then where was his dissent during Clinton's Balkan adventures?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 17, 2006 11:38 PM (LnS+d)
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I can't speak for Murtha, but I presume he would say we don't belong in a civil war that we can do nothing to stop. If we could stop it, that might be a different story. (And for the record, I disagree with Murtha's recommendation that we leave.)
Posted by: Nate at June 18, 2006 12:41 AM (UlkGh)
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but I presume he would say we don't belong in a civil war that we can do nothing to stop
How about civil wars we actively contributed to by removing peace keepers?
Think Rwanda...
Think massacre of hundreds of thousands...
Think Clinton...
But then again, big time body counts tied to democrat blunders don't count.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 18, 2006 06:18 PM (LnS+d)
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I think the isolationsist GOP-led Congress was just as "responsible" for Rwanda as Clinton. I put responsible in quotes because I don't think anyone is to blame for Rwanda. It's not our job to police the world.
Posted by: Nate at June 19, 2006 02:50 AM (UlkGh)
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Nate - Murtha doesn't speak for me or any vets I know. His pre-judging of these Marines, no matter what the exact quote, will prejudice any Courts Martial.
I have 30 years experience in the military and am a decorated retiree, so don't you dare question me! /
Posted by: MCPO Airdale at June 19, 2006 10:40 AM (3nKvy)
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What does your thirty years of military service have to do with my ability to question you?
Posted by: Nate at June 19, 2006 08:28 PM (UlkGh)
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Times Versus Times
The June 14, 2006
NY Times editorial
Detainees in Despair Op-ed by Mourad Benchellali was lapped up unquestioningly by liberal blogs, who used the editorial to decry the evils of the Guantanamo Bay prison camp.
On June 15, 2006, a NY Times news story states that the Benchellali family was convicted in France of trying to build chemical weapons for attacks on Paris landmarks. Convicted so far are his father, mother, two brothers, and 19 other people.
Does anyone doubt that Mourad would have been in the middle of the French terrorist plot with the rest of his family if he weren't cooling his heels in Gitmo?
I sense a new marketing campaign by the Adminstration:
"Guantanamo Bay: Keeping terrorists out of the prisons they deserve to be in since 2002."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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There's no inconsistency between the two stories. Mourad claims that he was sent to Afghanistan by his brother without ever being told that he was being sent to an Al Qaeda training camp. Now the brother has been convicted of a terrorist plot, which only backs up Mourad's version of events.
Of course Mourad might be lying, but yes, I think there's reasonable doubt that the man would ever have become a terrorist. And I have a big problem with the idea that people can be put into a maximum security prison for years, just because some faceless bureaucrat thinks it's likely that they'll commit a crime at some point in the future.
People should be given the opportunity to make their own moral choices before we pass judgement on them for those choices. And yes, our society will be more dangerous as a result. But some principles are too important to be sacrificed, even to improve our safety.
Posted by: Mat at June 15, 2006 01:20 AM (kVBtr)
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Mat,
I disagree with you. He was already following in the Family business. He went through the training, he didn't just show up and leave. One of the things that the 'Detainee's' are told to do is create public sympathy. He's doing that well. I read his piece and found it extremely hard to swallow, especially knowing his background and knowing his family's involvment in overt acts of violence.
He is being put on trial in France, I hope they get that one right.
Posted by: Retired Navy at June 15, 2006 05:14 AM (JYeBJ)
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"Walks Like A duck." "Quacks like duck." any questions?
Posted by: Faithful Patriot at June 15, 2006 07:02 AM (nFSnk)
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"Just what are you going to do?"
Er, call the cops, perhaps? I mean, what with him having carried out about a dozen or so separate crimes in that list of yours, I think I've got a reasonable case to put him away.
My objection is to putting people in jail for a crime they might commit in the future, but so far haven't. And I'm not even that fundamentalist about this little rule; it's reasonable to have police on hand watching a neo-nazi demonstration, for example, even if no-one participating commits a crime. I'm just saying that jail for years, with no access to lawyers and no appeal, is at least one step too far.
In this case, Mourad is up-front about the fact that he *has* done something wrong: attending an Al Qaeda training camp. He should be prosecuted for what he has done. He should not be punished for something he hasn't.
Posted by: Mat at June 15, 2006 08:15 AM (kVBtr)
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Fine, then he should be locked up for a million years for attending a terrorist training camp.
Posted by: Cindi at June 15, 2006 12:40 PM (asVsU)
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Mat: WE are the cops. The US. Us. We're the cops.
Posted by: basil at June 15, 2006 01:48 PM (4Ek1C)
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Mat,
I appreciate the fact that while you do not agree with the conclusion, you pose your concerns and disagreement in a reasonable and respectful manner. That's more rare than I would like.
Posted by: Lissa at June 15, 2006 05:15 PM (fHdl7)
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Hey Mat,
I got a Bridge for Sale, How bout some Beach Front Property in Kansas??
Sheesh!!
Posted by: mike at June 17, 2006 01:47 AM (w3HDb)
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June 14, 2006
Alberto Pays a Visit
While Glenn Reynolds
seems to have sailed through Tropical Storm Alberto without any problems, we're not having it quite as easy here in central North Carolina. The following pictures are pulled from from NCDOT cameras and viewer-submited photos at
WRAL-TV.com.
Crabtree Valley Mall in Raleigh is, for understandable reasons, closed...
A closer look of parking near the mall shows that anchoring is more of an issue than parking.
If you want to cross Trinty Road, you'd better be able to part the waters.
A front yard in Cary (the Containment Area for Relocated Yankees, according to Wikipedia), just south of Raleigh finds itself suddenly overwatered.
With a total of 4-8 inches of rain expected to drop before Albero clears the area, the commute home promises to be entertaining, to say the least.
Aren't we lucky this wasn't a "real storm?"
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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The real storm will be tonight at the RBC Center!
Go Hurricanes!
Posted by: Chris at June 14, 2006 03:19 PM (52bcc)
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I left my office in RTP at 5:05 and made it down 55 to Apex by 5:35. One of the best commute days I've ever had.
Maybe everyone else decided to wait 'til later to go home.
Posted by: Russ at June 14, 2006 05:04 PM (utsLN)
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Like I told you on the phone this afternoon. If you are looking for sympathy from this end, you'll have to keep looking.
As the Internet's resident hurricane magnet I'm personally thankful we didn't get hit and it didn't go Category on us.
I know, it sounds cold hearted, but after 5 hurricanes and I forget how many tropical storms...it's hard to feel anything but relief at this point.
Posted by: WB at June 14, 2006 06:42 PM (HXJMF)
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Whaaaaaaaaah! Whaaaaaaaaah! Looks like that water is melting your candy asses! RTP is affluent, so I am sure Georgey Porgey Pudd'en Pie would help you out if it got too bad!
Posted by: Johnny at June 14, 2006 07:18 PM (Vtwo9)
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Your presence is requested on our Wingnut Irony thread, Sir.
Posted by: The Liberal Avenger at June 14, 2006 09:30 PM (FcZzw)
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Thank goodness it was worse.
Posted by: seawitch at June 15, 2006 11:05 AM (DIyHc)
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You got all the rain, we got the tornados. 4 here in Charleston - on a few miles from my house. I agree with alot of others - this was a good practice for the season.
Posted by: scmommy at June 15, 2006 11:25 AM (b3gbN)
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Sometimes You Feel Like A NutÂ…
...
sometimes you don't:
The leaders of the state's Democratic and Republican parties have asked voters not to cast ballots for state Supreme Court candidate Rachel Lea Hunter, whose fiery rhetoric in recent weeks has included comparing the actions of a black congressional candidate to that of a slave.
"She's unstable and unqualified, and the thought of her serving on the highest court in North Carolina is scary," state Republican party chairman Ferrell Blount said Tuesday.
Blount's comments came after Hunter, a former Republican running as a Democrat, used the title "Dur Fuhrer" -- commonly associated with Nazi leader Adolf Hitler -- when referring to state Democratic party chief Jerry Meek.
Hunter's sanity—or lack thereof—might also be indicated by links on her site (to which I refuse to link), to liber-nut-arian Lew Rockwell, presumably some of whose Gary North-oriented readers would stone to death another odd duck /paleocon/libertarian she supports, Justin Raimondo. She also links to a "9/11 was an inside job" conspiracy site, and perhaps not surprisingly, Cindy Sheehan's organization.
I personally have no problem with "Madame Justice" (as she like to call herself) being part of the court system, I just think she belongs on the other side of the bench—perhaps in a competency hearing.
Captain Ed and Allah have commented on the wannabe Justice as well.
Note: She'll still probably win in Chapel Hill (motto: "Left of center, right out of our minds").
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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