April 23, 2007
RIP: Congresswoman Juanita Millender-McDonald
Our thoughts and prayers go out this morning to the family, friends, and collegues of California Congresswoman Juanita Millender-McDonald, who lost her battle with cancer yesterday.
WaPo has the story.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:01 AM
| Comments (1)
| Add Comment
Post contains 38 words, total size 1 kb.
1
What we have witnessed here is the result of years of "Zero Tolerance" in our schools. School employees at all levels continually instruct (brainwash)our children that they are not allowed to defend themselves under any circumstance. When attacked they are to act like sheep. They should find an adult; run to the office; don't strike back because violence never solved anything. My son served a two day suspension in high school for putting a hurting on a bully who probably did not expect to meet resistance in the form of a beating. The principal originally wanted him to serve a five day suspension because of "zero tolerance". However, after pointing out a few legal facts to him, and pointing out that I will not allow my son to take a beating for some socialist pipe dream, it became a two day suspension. How sad, but when I was a kid the bully would have been the only one in trouble. By the way, the bully never bothered my son again and he served a five day suspension.
Posted by: RetSgt at April 23, 2007 01:27 PM (psL7l)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Is a Mandatory Waiting Period a Good Idea?
From
falsely reporting (ansd still
refusing to correct) a claim that the expiration of the 1994 Crime Bill permitted the sale of high capacity and extended magazines, to claims that he
purchased a pistol and
ammunition online to citing
incompetent experts, the "professional" media has consistantly made inaccurate, unsupported, and erroneous claims about the firearms,
magazines, ammunition and firearms laws surrounding the Virginia Tech massacre committed one week ago today.
Should we perhaps consider a mandatory waiting period on the media's reporting of gun crimes... or would we best be served by making them pass a basic background and competence check before allowing them to write?
The pen is mightier than the sword, after all, so it is reasonable to make sure that those who use them are capable of using them responsibly.
Update: How about this for a new bumper sticker: "Michael Isikoff's keyboard has killed more people than Ted Kennedy's car, or my guns."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
07:51 AM
| Comments (7)
| Add Comment
Post contains 172 words, total size 2 kb.
1
I have purchessed a few guns in California when
I lived there,Ruger super Blackhawk 44 mag,
Rem 870 12 ga mag,Sako 7mm rem mag,Ruger 10/22
Browning 22 Auto Pistol to name a few.All under
the Mandatory 14 day waiting period.The fact I had to wait 14 days was no big deal. I tried to
pick up the 10/22 the night before the 14th day
it was a no go.The dealer said come back in the morning,if thats not good enough you can have your money back...
Posted by: Jack Sparrow at April 23, 2007 09:20 AM (L4HGI)
2
I just added a link to my "VTech+7: Did we learn anything?" roundup. Maybe what we really need is licenses for reporters, to be issued only after they pass a basic intelligence test.
Posted by: Bill Faith at April 23, 2007 02:45 PM (n7SaI)
3
Posted by Bill Faith at April 23, 2007 02:45 PM
If the ones there had to do it first, there wouldn't be many left. Even if it was held at a 6th grade level.
Posted by: Retired Navy at April 24, 2007 05:15 AM (y67bA)
4
"... Should we perhaps consider a mandatory waiting period on the media's reporting of gun crimes... or would we best be served by making them pass a basic background and competence check before allowing them to write? ..."
Those ARE two "reasonable" and "sensible" requirements that many suggest for firearm ownership, so I don't see how they could possibly object.
(Though I suspect the "competence check" requirement is already met by journalism schooling and hiring protocols ... Not very successfully, but met nonetheless.)
Posted by: DoorHold at April 24, 2007 10:54 AM (yc7wV)
5
I think there should be a mandatory waiting period on pistol purchases 9mm and under.
"Are you sure you want that? We have some nice 1911 .45s back in the safe, and a special on .44 Magnum wheelguns."
Posted by: cirby at April 24, 2007 11:27 AM (ZMgaW)
6
I'm just a Midwestern Farm boy, but I now live in Kahleefornia, I bought two long guns last month to hunt and take the girls target shooting.
You know, They have the serial numbers and my information now not just in the Federal Database but in the State of California Department of Justice Transactional database controlled by a state populated ongoing with some of the most irresponsible self serving politicians this side of Paris, Beijing, Moscow and San Francisco.
They know exactly what every gun owner has and where to come and get them when they're ready.
Posted by: Econ-Scott at April 24, 2007 02:28 PM (jFHb3)
7
Two excellent, responsible, moderate, and, heavens knows, sensible suggestions for preventing the sort of poisonous, irresponsible reporting that causes violences and fascist repression.
But why stop with these?
1) Sensible news control measures should be applied to all major stories, not just to stories involving gun crime. For example, had such restrictions been in place at the time of the Pearl Harbor incident, and no news about the incident could have been reported for 48 hours, December 7 would still have been a day that would live in infamy, we would still have ended up being at war with Japan, and the casualty report would have been a lot more accurate.
2) Reporters should be required to keep locks on their computers when they're not in use if children -- anyone under the age of, oh say 35 for these purposes -- are present. We all know what happens when over-testoseroned, not to mention over-estongenated, juveniles get anywhere near a keyboard. Mandatory locks would prevent such tragedies.
3) There should also be a sharp limit on the number of news stories a reporter is allowed to write each month -- say one. Reporters are always whining about how overworked they are and how the constant press of deadlines causes them to make mistakes. Much of the erroneous reporting about Virginia Tech would not have occurred if reporters were not rushing stories into print at the rate of three or four a day -- day after day after day. Besides, it would create jobs for about 30 times as many ink-stained scribblers as there are now. The need for this measure should be self-evident.
4) And, needless to say, we should ban "assault computers," which have as much power as a 1990 mainframe computer and can allow deranged psychopath in a newsroom with a website to start a riot, a witchhunt, a jihad, or a revolution, to way nothing to stalking innocent people for fun and profit. Such machines have no legitimate use in journalism. They are only useful for someone playing games.
Posted by: pauldanish at April 24, 2007 03:03 PM (/Ic/p)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
April 20, 2007
An Axis of Embarrassment: Saddam's WMD Bunkers Found?
Via
Lucianne, just another
crazed conspiracy theorist:
Mr Gaubatz verbally told the Iraq Study Group (ISG) of his findings, and asked them to come with heavy equipment to breach the concrete of the bunkers and uncover their sealed contents. But to his consternation, the ISG told him they didnÂ’t have the manpower or equipment to do it and that it would be 'unsafe' to try.
'The problem was that the ISG were concentrating their efforts in looking for WMD in northern Iraq and this was in the south,' says Mr Gaubatz. 'They were just swept up by reports of WMD in so many different locations. But we told them that if they didn't excavate these sites, others would.'
That, he says, is precisely what happened. He subsequently learnt from Iraqi, CIA and British intelligence that the WMD buried in the four sites were excavated by Iraqis and Syrians, with help from the Russians, and moved to Syria. The location in Syria of this material, he says, is also known to these intelligence agencies. The worst-case scenario has now come about. Saddam’s nuclear, biological and chemical material is in the hands of a rogue terrorist state — and one with close links to Iran.
When Mr Gaubatz returned to the US, he tried to bring all this to light. Two congressmen, Peter Hoekstra, chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, and Curt Weldon, were keen to follow up his account. To his horror, however, when they tried to access his classified intelligence reports, they were told that all 60 of them — which, in the routine way, he had sent in 2003 to the computer clearing-house at a US airbase in Saudi Arabia — had mysteriously gone missing. These written reports had never even been seen by the ISG.
One theory is that they were inadvertently destroyed when the computer's database was accidentally erased in the subsequent US evacuation of the airbase. Mr Gaubatz, however, suspects dirty work at the crossroads. It is unlikely, he says, that no copies were made of his intelligence. And he says that all attempts by Messrs Hoekstra and Weldon to extract information from the Defence Department and CIA have been relentlessly stonewalled.
In 2005, the CIA held a belated inquiry into the disappearance of this intelligence. Only then did its agents visit the sites — to report that they had indeed been looted.
Hoekstra, the CIA, and now this nut Gaubatz... who is he, anyway?
The problem the US authorities have is that they can't dismiss Mr Gaubatz as a rogue agent — because they have repeatedly decorated him for his work in the field. In 2003, he received awards for his 'courage and resolve in saving lives and being critical for information flow'. In 2001, he was decorated for being the 'lead agent in a classified investigation, arguably the most sensitive counter-intelligence investigation currently in the entire Department of Defence' and because his 'reports were such high quality, many were published in the Air Force's daily threat product for senior USAF leaders or re-transmitted at the national level to all security agencies in US government'.
What a loon. No credibility at all.
And he poses an interesting delimma, if correct:
The Republicans won't touch this because it would reveal the incompetence of the Bush administration in failing to neutralise the danger of Iraqi WMD. The Democrats won't touch it because it would show President Bush was right to invade Iraq in the first place. It is an axis of embarrassment.
Quite true.
Should this Gaubatz guy, ISG and DIA supervisor Ray Robinson and other decorated "nutters" be correct, then Dubya is shown to be even more incompetent than both Democrats and Republicans have ever dared fear, and yet, Democrats couldn't call him on it, because they would have to admit he was right to topple Saddam in the first place, and they might have to back up that fact by confronting Syria... probably with "important action alerts."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
01:54 PM
| Comments (61)
| Add Comment
Post contains 678 words, total size 4 kb.
1
I don't understand the comments between the quotations. If you are genuinely trying to make fun of the proposition that Saddam had WMDs and moved them to Syria in the run up to the invasion, you are very badly mistaken. Iraqi Air Force General Georges Sada has said precisely that. Translated Saddam government documents indicate the same. Also, Saddam did have and used one form of WMD, nerve gas, against the Kurds, killing thousands, and Saddam intended to get more WMDs once he was clear of U.N. supervision, which he was attempting to do through the Oil-For-Food scandal. But for the left wing's constant carping that WMDs were not found, everyone would be assuming, as they should, that Saddam had WMDs and secreted them somewhere before the invasion. Syria is the most likely choice.
Posted by: Phil Byler at April 20, 2007 06:55 PM (qthJd)
2
Phil Byler,
But for the left wing's constant carping that WMDs were not found
It's "carping" when one complains about the government spending 3,500 soldiers and half a trillion dollars on lies? You are a rare breed.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 20, 2007 11:58 PM (/yN81)
3
A liar talking about lies?
Awesome.
Posted by: brando at April 21, 2007 12:59 AM (uZ35s)
4
brando:
Do you intend to substantiate that, or was it cowardly sniping?
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 21, 2007 01:27 AM (/yN81)
5
Confederate Yankee, I would concede that you're right on many accounts about the Second Amendment, and that during the 18th century, such a right did ensure the citizens' "capability to take [the US] back by force from a corrupt government, overthrowing it if necessary."
However, the United States Military, if at some point turned against its own citizens, would hardly find challenges while possessing infantry fighting vehicles, Apache helicopters, biological weapons, or nuclear weapons. The US military (currently operating on $419.3 Bil.) would overwhelm such a militia, easily. This was not the case back when the Second Amendment was being considered. How does this play within your argument and does this pose an interesting question to not only the topic stated but to the dangers of an overwhelming military budget more generally?
Posted by: Joel at April 21, 2007 03:33 AM (Zz+O+)
6
My apologies, the comment I gave above was intended for the, "Temporary Safety" post.
Posted by: Joel at April 21, 2007 03:37 AM (Zz+O+)
7
"It's "carping" when one complains about the government spending 3,500 soldiers and half a trillion dollars on lies? You are a rare breed."
Lies that the majority of Democrats voted for? Lies that the majority of world leaders and intelligence agencies believed in?
Anyhow, there were many other reasons to depose Saddam, as laid out in the 2003 SOTU. I know lefties have an issue reading anything that might teach them something other then their narrow dogmatic view as put out by MoveOn and Kos, but give it a try, Lefties.
Posted by: William Teach at April 21, 2007 06:30 AM (doAuV)
8
The US military (currently operating on $419.3 Bil.) would overwhelm such a militia, easily.
There are more weapons available to the general populace than firearms/explosives. 5 minutes of thought might suggest a few to you...presuming you have enough neurons firing to be capable of thought.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 21, 2007 09:42 AM (kr/gV)
9
William Teach:
The
Dem congressmen voting for it doesn't make it right. Anyway, the reason they did vote for it was that they were scared by this administration's repeated lies. Look at the Downing Street Memo. Look at how they promoted the Niger forgeries, and attacked Joe Wilson for doubting the Niger connection. Look at the other main source of intelligence your boys used, a known lunatic named Screwball. Look at how the inspectors found nothing but Bush pulled them anyway.
there were many other reasons to depose Saddam, as laid out in the 2003 SOTU.
If you think this war was a good idea you're raving. Retired General McPeak just said we couldn't win now if we had a million soldiers.
You're most likely going to go to your grave thinking that the Dems ruined your perfect war, when Bush received every single thing he requested for years. Iraq is steadily more of a mess and you dead enders complain that the Dems are spoiling it. What a a whining loser you are.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 21, 2007 09:52 AM (/yN81)
10
Do you think the war could be won if half of the enemy were screaming "We need to pull out now!!" or "The jihad isn't worth fighting!!" or maybe "Impeach Osama Bin Laden!!".
I think all you Libs are whining pussies
You are all class.
It's your side that's whining. "You're not supporting the troops! You're not supporting the troops!" The troops want to come home. A Zogby polled showed that "just one in five troops want to heed Bush call to stay 'as long as they are needed'. SecDef Gates just told Maliki that the "clock is ticking". You and Bush are dead enders. Nobody else wants an open ended commitment. Our troops are trained for combat, not policing.
The Iraqis want us to leave, our troops want to leave. You've got nothing except your irrational love of military force. You're an anchor to your country and a loser.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 21, 2007 01:27 PM (/yN81)
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 21, 2007 03:27 PM (kr/gV)
12
Cmon Lex, we know you guys are the whiners, you just dont want to admit it. Nobody wants an open ended commitment. If the war truely was lost, then Id say bring them home. Do you think the troops in WW2 wanted to stay on a shitty piece of rock for a year and watch all their buddies die? I dont think so. Im pretty sure no soldier likes war. My friends who are in Iraq think they should stay, until they win, or things go to complete shit. Do they like being there? Hell no!
Id like you to answwer my question I asked previously.
Do you think the war could be won if half the enemy were screaming "We need to pull out now!!" or "The jihad isn't worth fighting!!" or maybe "Impeach Osama Bin Laden!!"?
I mean seriously I just want know what you think. My opinion is that when people scream like that, it makes you look weak to the enemy. And, more impotantly, it scares away potential allies. Please explain to me that im wrong.
Posted by: Justin at April 21, 2007 04:42 PM (NiTuu)
13
HAH! I just saw a Dem in congress call a handgun a Weapon of Mass Distruction. Aparently invading Iraq was justified.
Posted by: Justin at April 21, 2007 05:08 PM (NiTuu)
14
Maybe that explains trips by top Democrats to Syria.
Posted by: crosspatch at April 21, 2007 06:58 PM (b2S+L)
15
Dem congressmen voting for it doesn't make it right. Anyway, the reason they did vote for it was that they were scared by this administration's repeated lies.
What a joke. So LEx, are you really trying to tell us that all the speeches by the dems during the Clinton administration were due to lies from the Bush administration? Are you trying to tell us that Operation Desert Fox was a Bush administration operation? Do you really want us to believe that the problems with the Jihadis started when Bush took office? What are you smoking dude?
BTW - What's even funnier about the statement/sentiment I quoted at the top is this. You keep calling Bush stupid/incompetent. But by your reasoning, he was smart enough to outwit the Dimmie Brain Trust. That means, by your own admission, Bush is smarter than all of the DemoNcrats that voted for AUMF. Wow. Pretty stupid!
But - that's from someone like you Lex, that thinks that Hillary, and Howie "AAAAIIIIIYEEEEE" Dean are actually smart. The Dimmie brain trust at work. LOL.
Posted by: Specter at April 21, 2007 10:01 PM (ybfXM)
16
Nobody wants an open ended commitment
Wrong. Bush has said this time and time again.
Im pretty sure no soldier likes war.
First of all, that's just wrong. Some men acquire a taste for killing other men, as Ernest Hemingway said.
If the troops want to come home, which you seem to allow, then how can we be supporting them by keeping them there for some indeterminate period?
Do you think the war could be won if half the enemy were screaming "We need to pull out now!!" or "The jihad isn't worth fighting!!" or maybe "Impeach Osama Bin Laden!!"?
You're conflating the war against jihad with the war in Iraq. Iraq was a secular nation under Saddam and had little to do with jihad. Al Qaeda is a Sunni group, whereas Iraq is mostly Shia. Bin Laden is a pious Sunni, whereas Saddam was a plain despot. As a result they naturally distrusted each other.
So what do you mean the war against jihad that we should be fighting, or the war against Iraq?
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 21, 2007 10:05 PM (/yN81)
17
They are the same thing Idyut. What - you think the jihadists have a specific country they hang out in? Learn a little from
history.
Posted by: Specter at April 21, 2007 10:10 PM (ybfXM)
18
Lex, your telling me there are no jihadists in Iraq? I know that doesnt fit your views but cmon man, open your eyes. You still didn't answer my question. I guess your answer must not fit too well with your insistance that Liberal whining has nothing to do with hurting our boys over there.
Posted by: Justin at April 21, 2007 11:04 PM (NiTuu)
19
Dem congressmen voting for it doesn't make it right. Anyway, the reason they did vote for it was that they were scared by this administration's repeated lies.
Cmon Lex, lets go back a few years and see what a few of your buddies were saying:
"I come to this debate, Mr. Speaker, as one at the end of 10 years in office on the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, where stopping the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction was one of my top priorities. I applaud the President on focusing on this issue and on taking the lead to disarm Saddam Hussein. ... Others have talked about this threat that is posed by Saddam Hussein. Yes, he has chemical weapons, he has biological weapons, he is trying to get nuclear weapons."
Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi
"In the next century, the community of nations may see more and more the very kind of threat Iraq poses now -- a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction ready to use them or provide them to terrorists, drug traffickers or organized criminals who travel the world among us unnoticed.
If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow by the knowledge that they can act with impunity, even in the face of a clear message from the United Nations Security Council and clear evidence of a weapons of mass destruction program."
President Bill Clinton 1998
Wow clear evidence, and even before Bush was elected! Holy crap he was "scaring" Dems even before he got elected. Now thats amazing.
"People can quarrel with whether we should have more troops in Afghanistan or internationalize Iraq or whatever, but it is incontestable that on the day I left office, there were unaccounted for stocks of biological and chemical weapons."
Clinton again 2003
"We stopped the fighting [in 1991] on an agreement that Iraq would take steps to assure the world that it would not engage in further aggression and that it would destroy its weapons of mass destruction. It has refused to take those steps. That refusal constitutes a breach of the armistice which renders it void and justifies resumption of the armed conflict."
No way that was said by Harry Reid 2002
Man, kinda looks to me that this was a justified war. Looks like the Dems are criminalizing Bush for doing what they though was right. Got anything to add Lexy boy?
Posted by: Justin at April 21, 2007 11:13 PM (NiTuu)
20
My last post pretty much affirms that Libs are pussies.
Oh I got a few more too
"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his offenses. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. He miscalculated an eight-year war with Iran. He miscalculated the invasion of Kuwait. He miscalculated America's response to that act of naked aggression. He miscalculated the result of setting oil rigs on fire. He miscalculated the impact of sending scuds into Israel and trying to assassinate an American President. He miscalculated his own military strength. He miscalculated the Arab world's response to his misconduct. And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, has spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons programs and disarm.
So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War.
In U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441, the United Nations has now affirmed that Saddam Hussein must disarm or face the most serious consequences. Let me make it clear that the burden is resoundingly on Saddam Hussein to live up to the ceasefire agreement he signed and make clear to the world how he disposed of weapons he previously admitted to possessing."
John Kerry
"Imagine the consequences if Saddam fails to comply and we fail to act. Saddam will be emboldened, believing the international community has lost its will. He will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction. And some day, some way, I am certain, he will use that arsenal again, as he has ten times since 1983."
Sandy Berger 1998
"No one has done what Saddam Hussein has done, or is thinking of doing. He is producing weapons of mass destruction, and he is qualitatively and quantitatively different from other dictators."
Mad Albright 1998
What did Saddamn do with those weapons between Clinton and Bush? He threw them away? Sarindar maybe?
Posted by: Justin at April 21, 2007 11:20 PM (NiTuu)
21
Harry Reid's comment put every Iraqi and American death in Iraq squarely on his and the Dem's sodiers.
Someone somewhere will start tallying his toll and display it publicly.
Posted by: CoRev at April 22, 2007 08:26 AM (0U8Ob)
22
Sorry, should have been shoulders!
Posted by: CoRev at April 22, 2007 08:28 AM (0U8Ob)
23
Specter:
So LEx, are you really trying to tell us that all the speeches by the dems during the Clinton administration were due to lies from the Bush administration? Are you trying to tell us that Operation Desert Fox was a Bush administration operation? Do you really want us to believe that the problems with the Jihadis started when Bush took office?
I'm not saying any of those things.
BTW - What's even funnier about the statement/sentiment I quoted at the top is this. You keep calling Bush stupid/incompetent. But by your reasoning, he was smart enough to outwit the Dimmie Brain Trust. That means, by your own admission, Bush is smarter than all of the DemoNcrats that voted for AUMF. Wow. Pretty stupid!
I won't defend the Dems in congress. They screwed up when they voted for war. However I don't agree that Bush outsmarted them. He rode roughshod over them is more like it.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 22, 2007 10:28 AM (/yN81)
24
Specter:
They are the same thing Idyut. What - you think the jihadists have a specific country they hang out in?
I understand averages and use them correctly, so if I'm an idiot then you have a most severe handicap.
Iraq wasn't anywhere near the top of the list for jihad when we invaded. 11 of the 19 911 hijackers were Saudis. There are definitely jihad training camps in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Iraq was a secular nation under Saddam. Sure there are jihadists there now, only because our troops are sitting ducks for them.
Be glad of the good news: America is mired in the swamps of the Tigris and Euphrates. Bush is, through Iraq and its oil, easy prey. Here is he now, thank God, in an embarassing situation and here is America today being ruined before the eyes of the whole world.
--Osama bin Laden, video message broadcast October 18, 2003
Nice job, guys. Iraq is such a ringing success that you want to attack Iran now too.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 22, 2007 02:02 PM (/yN81)
25
Justin,
Lex, your telling me there are no jihadists in Iraq?
Sure there are now.
You still didn't answer my question.
Your question doesn't make any sense as I pointed out. You are grossly uninformed about the situation in Iraq.
Liberal whining has nothing to do with hurting our boys over there.
Our boys want to come home. 77% of those polled say they want to come home within a year. Your idea of supporting them is making them stay. Look at Walter Reid. Look at the new deployment time of 15 months instead of 12. You're not supporting the troops, you're getting them killed on a babysitting mission that you're too proud to admit is an abject failure. You're the whiner, "support the troops, support the troops." Why don't you go help out, yellowbelly? Or maybe you're part of the 101st Fighting Keyboarders? Coward.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 22, 2007 02:08 PM (/yN81)
26
Justin,
"Yes, he has chemical weapons, he has biological weapons, he is trying to get nuclear weapons."
I already told you that I take exception to the Dem congressmen voting to authorize the Iraq war. Can't you understand that? I'm not a partisan Democrat, I'm a registered independent. So I agree that some of the quotes you gave indict the Dems. The war was still wrong.
How did she get those opinions though? It's because Bush lied and lied and lied. Everybody knows it now except you dead enders.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 22, 2007 02:13 PM (/yN81)
27
Lex and David (I know he's not active on this thread) are both always quoting in a historical context. Why don't you come up with some alternatives strategies? Let us view and discuss your critical thinking.
You are always whining about what has happened. let's talk about your goals and their possible/probably impacts. Oh, don't forget to start talking about the poor chilruns in Darfur. We just must protect dem poor chilruns over there.
Posted by: CoRev at April 22, 2007 02:53 PM (0U8Ob)
28
Oh, don't forget to start talking about the poor chilruns in Darfur. We just must protect dem poor chilruns over there.
You're a real prince, aren't you?
You're whining that we keep pointing out what a complete failure this administration has been.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 22, 2007 03:26 PM (40R2V)
29
Bush lied, about what? You really need to get yourself another storyline. You are boring.
Posted by: davod at April 22, 2007 03:53 PM (8l/EC)
30
So much for the critical thinking. Try again, next thread. You are a bust on this one. Come to think of it, you have consistently been a bust. Same message every day/thread. Davod is correct, you are boring.
Posted by: CoRev at April 22, 2007 03:57 PM (0U8Ob)
31
Osama bin Laden, video message broadcast October 18, 2003
Lord HawHaw and Tokyo Rose said similar things. I'm guessing you'd have been on their side too.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 22, 2007 05:26 PM (kr/gV)
32
Davod, CoRev, Purple Avenger:
If you had any arguments you wouldn't need to resort to insulting me, so I consider the debate over.
How does it feel to watch your countrymen die in your perfect war? You're brave all right when someone else is doing the fighting. Your are yellow bellies and cowards.
Read
here about your new hero Gaubatz.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 22, 2007 07:33 PM (40R2V)
33
Steele, how can you deny history? It is said there are not so stupid as those who will not learn. From what I read of your posts, you belong in that catagory. Demonstrate where Bush runs roughshod over anything except our enemies. Notice during the Clinton administration and their dealing with terrorism as a policing problem, how many times we were struck, both here and abroad. Now reflect if you can, on the Bush adminsitration. Notice any difference? Probably not. Finding bunkers locked does not mean they were filled at the time of the invasion. Trucks took those itmes to Syria. They will reappear when Syria loses the next war to Israel.
Posted by: Zelsdorf Ragshaft III at April 22, 2007 07:49 PM (VGAdU)
34
But Lex Idyut,
You said:
Dem congressmen voting for it doesn't make it right. Anyway, the reason they did vote for it was that they were scared by this administration's repeated lies.
Don't try to backpedal now. You said it. So, my question, which you did not answer, was completely logical. How do you explain all of the Dimmies speeches about Hussein before Bush took office? How do you explain the Clinton admin attack - Operation Desert Storm? That was all before Bush could have "lied" (your inept words) to the Dimmies. Right? So how do you explain that before they voted for the war - in fact for years before - the Dimmie Brain Trust believed that Hussein had WMD? You can't and you know it. But you see, rather than analyze things from a realistic point of view, you want to keep your Dimmie Spectacles on and blame everything on Bush. Sorry that you have no brain other than what you've been fed from KOS and DU.
Posted by: Specter at April 22, 2007 08:26 PM (ybfXM)
35
Lex, you have been thoroughly busted. The critical thinking comment was meant as a challenge to see if you had anything other the Dimmie talking points. You did not!
Posted by: CoRev at April 22, 2007 09:47 PM (0U8Ob)
36
Zelsdorf:
Demonstrate where Bush runs roughshod over anything except our enemies.
You're ill informed. During Bush's first term he bulldozed whatever he wanted past the Democrats. There's no debating this.
Specter:
You said: "Dem congressmen voting for it doesn't make it right. Anyway, the reason they did vote for it was that they were scared by this administration's repeated lies." Don't try to backpedal now.
It is oh so tedious speaking with you, that's why I usually ignore you. I agree with the statement 100%, and at no point did I backpedal from it.
How do you explain all of the Dimmies speeches about Hussein before Bush took office?
That's easy. Saddam was a source of instability in the region and a ruthless dictator. He clearly pursued WMD before the first gulf war. So what's your point?
How do you explain the Clinton admin attack - Operation Desert Storm?
First, Operation Desert Storm was initiated by Bush 41. It was due to Saddam invading Kuwait, not terrorism. I could go on and on. You may be the biggest clown I have ever run across. You can't understand simple arithmetic. I don't have any more time for you.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 22, 2007 11:42 PM (40R2V)
37
CoRev: lots of substance in that last post. Why don't you make fun of the Somalians some more? Your mean, small minded, ugly little man act is amusing to us educated folks.
Time to enlist, fellas. The surge can't miss, am I right? Go give it that extra little push.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 22, 2007 11:50 PM (40R2V)
38
Lex, You admit there are jihadists in Iraq. Ignoring all the BS that led up to this war, do you think we should just let them have Iraq? Happy birthday Osama! Merry Ramadan Ahmadinijad! A country of your own, filled with oil.
Don't you think it alot of lives could have been saved if we took out Hitler in the 30's? Yes. Saddamn Hussein was a modern day Hitler. We took him out. Now we are trying to build a country from scratch. We did in Japan. It wasnt easy. Now Japan is one of the greatest economic powers in the entire world. You want to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. We are VERY close to stabilizing Iraq. The civil war is winding down as the jihad from the terrorists is gearing up. People who wanted to kill us a year ago are realizing there better off with America than Osama. The jihadists kill women and children. We don't. Give the surge a chance and quit your friggin WHINING. We will know if it is working by the fall. When the terrorists bomb something the Dems scream "its not working". Dont you think they are going to try and fight back?
The Libs are pussies because they want a war where nobody dies. Thats insane. We have to fight these jihadists or we have to praise allah. Take your pick.
Oh and my question was simple. If the terrorists talked like you Liberals did, wouldn't you think they were weak and could easily be defeated if we only killed a few of them in a brutal way?
Liberals are a key part of the Al-Qeada strategy. Give them a bloody nose and they run for the hills.
Posted by: Justin at April 23, 2007 09:43 AM (hJmIk)
39
Justin:
You admit there are jihadists in Iraq.
There are now that people like you have our troops stuck there as sitting ducks. In 2000 Iraq wasn't a threat to anyone.
Ignoring all the BS that led up to this war, do you think we should just let them have Iraq? Happy birthday Osama! Merry Ramadan Ahmadinijad! A country of your own, filled with oil.
Look, Osama wasn't in Iraq, had nothing to do with 911, and had no operational ties with Saddam. Ahmadinijad is in Iran. What does invading Iraq have to do with either of them?
Don't you think it alot of lives could have been saved if we took out Hitler in the 30's? Yes. Saddamn Hussein was a modern day Hitler. We took him out.
Hitler was a genocidal maniac who lead an advanced industrial economy. Saddam was neither of those things. He was basically harmless in 2001.
Now we are trying to build a country from scratch. We did in Japan.
Not true. We retained most of Japan's laws and their parliament. An Iraqi govt will have to be made of whole cloth.
We are VERY close to stabilizing Iraq. The civil war is winding down as the jihad from the terrorists is gearing up. People who wanted to kill us a year ago are realizing there better off with America than Osama.
It is not stabilizing at all. There are more and more car bombs. US casualties are still heavy. You are dreaming.
The jihadists kill women and children. We don't.
What bull. Remember the tons of bombs we dropped?
Give the surge a chance and quit your friggin WHINING.
We've walked into Osama's trap as per my quotation above, and you say I'm whining. We've sacrificed 3,500 troops and half a trillion dollars for nothing and I'm whining. Bush is determined to continue the war without any timetable so he can say it's the next guy's fault and I'm whining.
We will know if it is working by the fall.
Come the fall you will need to break out your big shoes and round red nose. You will look into the mirror one morning and face a clown and a loser. Oh, and a coward. Why aren't you doing your part?
The Libs are pussies because they want a war where nobody dies.
No, we want a war that has some bearing on Osama and 911. Nice mouth, by the way. I'm sure your mother is proud of you.
Let us know which branch of the military you decided on. I'm guessing the 101st Fighting Keyboarders will suit you best, coward.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 23, 2007 11:22 AM (40R2V)
40
You know Lex, every time I see "101st Fighting Keyboarders" cited by one of you anti-war liberals, I smile. I attended the 1st annual MilBlog conference where this was discussed, and am proud to see it has had its intended effect.
You still have brought nothing of value to this discussion. Provide us an insight to your way out. With honor. Without losing to al Qaeda.
Posted by: CoRev at April 23, 2007 12:06 PM (0U8Ob)
41
Your cowardice makes you smile? That's novel. Most of us would have the decency to be ashamed.
The way out of Iraq is simply logistics. No, we will not leave with honor, but it will be worse the longer we put it off. The sooner we leave the more resource we will have left to engage them productively, instead of occupying a country where we are not welcome and our troops are sitting ducks.
Read William Odom's interview with Hugh Hewitt. He describes the predicament more eloquently than I can.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 23, 2007 02:27 PM (40R2V)
42
Lex, now you are calling me a coward? And, Iraq is a predicament?
Let me ask you another question. How do YOU support the troops? I can list mine. Can you?
And to the cowardice point, I am too old to serve, and already have. Have you?
You have been challenged to propose some action that does not leave us without honor, and you say we cannot. Not Dhimmie talking points to pass on in this area? I'm absolutely shocked to know that..
Posted by: CoRev at April 23, 2007 03:55 PM (0U8Ob)
43
Folks, I've already deleted several comments from folks for profanity and personal attacks. Please engage the topic, not each other's character.
Those that can't play by house rules will be invited to play elsewhere.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 23, 2007 07:53 PM (HcgFD)
44
Confederate Yankee: my older son is a U.S. Army First Lieutenant (with Ranger tab) serving as a platoon leader in Iraq; and the problem is that it takes profanity to deal with the left wing nitwits such as Lex Steele who don't have a clue.
Posted by: Phil Byler at April 23, 2007 09:08 PM (qthJd)
45
Lex, now you are calling me a coward?
Yes.
And, Iraq is a predicament?
Obviously. Bush said Mission Accomplished in 2003, yet here we are.
How do YOU support the troops?
77% said they want to come home within a year. I support them. You don't.
You have been challenged to propose some action that does not leave us without honor, and you say we cannot.
As I said, we're going to leave sooner or later. Your side is the one compromising this country's honor. It was the wrong war. Though toppling Saddam was relatively easy, and our troops have performed excellently, we cannot impose the rule of law with military night alone.
Look at all the
failed plans. This is from the guy who runs IntelDump. You all quoted him enthusiastically when he was delivering the positive news. Now he seems all but certain that the war is lost.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 23, 2007 09:30 PM (40R2V)
46
Phil Byler:
my older son is a U.S. Army First Lieutenant (with Ranger tab) serving as a platoon leader in Iraq; and the problem is that it takes profanity to deal with the left wing nitwits such as Lex Steele who don't have a clue.
The Iraqis, the US citizens, and the US troops all favor withdrawal. Who is it that doesn't have a clue? That's why you're reduced to profanity, because the facts aren't on your side. Your need to help bring your son home. You have faith against reason in a doomed mission. Look at the article I quoted in my last comment. There are fewer and fewer people who believe this is a war that can be won.
I sincerely with the best of luck to your son.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 23, 2007 09:39 PM (40R2V)
47
Lex, well Duhhhh, they were all supposed to return home in a year or less when your poll was taken. So what answer would you expect?
I still wish someone would ask these very simple poll questions of the Iraqis: Do you want us to leave? When?
I also wish we could ask a similar simple question of Americans: Do you want us to lose the war in Iraq?
Answers to these questions will stop most discussions.
Posted by: CoRev at April 23, 2007 09:57 PM (0U8Ob)
48
Sorry about the profanity CY. Wont happen again. I lost it a little when this guy calls me a coward. He doesnt know me.
Posted by: Justin at April 23, 2007 10:31 PM (NiTuu)
49
CoRev: you don't follow the news very closely. I found the examples below with about three minutes of googling. There are many more such examples if you care to look yourself.
Many or most Iraqis
think it's okay to attack US forces in their country. Think about that before you tell me I'm not supporting the troops.
- Nearly half of Iraqis approve of attacks on US-led forces
- 70% of Iraqis favor setting a timeline for the withdrawal of US forces.
- Support for attacks against US-led forces has increased sharply to 61 percent (27% strongly, 34% somewhat). This represents a 14-point increase from January 2006, when only 47 percent of Iraqis supported attacks.
- Two-thirds now oppose the presence of U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq, 14 points higher than in February 2004. Nearly six in 10 disapprove of how the United States has operated in Iraq since the war, and most of them disapprove strongly. And nearly half of Iraqis would like to see U.S. forces leave soon.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 23, 2007 11:39 PM (40R2V)
50
Lex, well Duhhhh, they were all supposed to return home in a year or less when your poll was taken.
That is so weak it made me wince. No doubt you have some rationale for why you did so poorly in school, but the actual reason is real simple.
Do you think the soldiers feel supported now that deployments are extended to 15 months? I'm guessing yes.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 23, 2007 11:54 PM (40R2V)
51
Do you think the soldiers feel supported now that deployments are extended to 15 months? I'm guessing yes.
Posted by Lex Steele at April 23, 2007 11:54 PM
Speaking from experience, it's not the length of the deployment that makes you feel supported, it's giving Kudos where and when they belong (there has been a hell of a lot more good in Iraq then the news even comes close to mentioning.).
Posted by: Retired Navy at April 24, 2007 05:20 AM (lNB+R)
52
Lex, your research still has not answered my three simple questions. No context, no build up, no spinning, just a simple poll. Let's see the results and then discussions will be ended.
And, most politicians behinds would be covered.
Posted by: CoRev at April 24, 2007 07:30 AM (0U8Ob)
53
Lex go read this email from a soldier in Iraq
http://64.13.251.37/2007/04/23/marine-corporal-from-a-bunker-in-ramadi-i-got-a-message-for-that-douche-harry-reid
BTW if you ask a soldier if he wants to go home he will say yes. If you ask them if they think all soldiers should quit and go home they will say no. Your stat is based on a loaded question.
Posted by: Justin at April 24, 2007 07:33 AM (NiTuu)
54
There are fewer and fewer people who believe this is a war that can be won.
Yeah more and more people who dont know what they are talking about. And they get there info from the Liberal propaganda machine chugging along in this country. Why doesnt the media report ONE SINGLE good thing about Iraq? Because it doesnt fit the "Democrat in '08" philosophy. '06 wasnt good enough. The Libs and Mr. Soros want it all no matter how much distortion of the truth it takes.
Posted by: Justin at April 24, 2007 07:39 AM (NiTuu)
55
Lex, well Duhhhh, they were all supposed to return home in a year or less when your poll was taken.
That is so weak it made me wince. No doubt you have some rationale for why you did so poorly in school, but the actual reason is real simple.
Do you think the soldiers feel supported now that deployments are extended to 15 months? I'm guessing yes.
Lex, support is when you say
"Good job guys." or "We're behind you 100%" or "We belive in what your dying for."
not when you say
"You lost the war" "The war is unwinnable", "We have no confidence in you", "We dont believe your generals know what they are doing. We (congress) are more qualified for that job."
I dont know how you guys can think that is supporting the troops.
Posted by: Justin at April 24, 2007 07:46 AM (NiTuu)
56
CoRev:
your research still has not answered my three simple questions... I still wish someone would ask these very simple poll questions of the Iraqis: Do you want us to leave? When?
I replied with snippets from various polls on the internet. I bolded some parts that you missed:
- Nearly half of Iraqis approve of attacks on US-led forces
- 70% of Iraqis favor setting a timeline for the withdrawal of US forces.
- Support for attacks against US-led forces has increased sharply to 61 percent (27% strongly, 34% somewhat). This represents a 14-point increase from January 2006, when only 47 percent of Iraqis supported attacks.
-
Two-thirds now oppose the presence of U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq, 14 points higher than in February 2004. Nearly six in 10 disapprove of how the United States has operated in Iraq since the war, and most of them disapprove strongly. And
nearly half of Iraqis would like to see U.S. forces leave soon.
Do you understand now? Perhaps you can have a friend draw pictures for you.
I also wish we could ask a similar simple question of Americans: Do you want us to lose the war in Iraq?
That's a loaded question obviously. Of course neither I nor anyone else I know wants us to lose the war. Rather, we don't know how to define a victory any better than what we've achieved, so it's unfair to ask our troops to remain.
The conservative Republican truism used to be, you can't force democracy at the barrel of a gun. Japan and Germany were way different. If many or most Iraqis
think it's okay to attack our troops, then we aren't going to promote a democracy there. The battle for hearts and minds has been lost.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 24, 2007 10:21 AM (40R2V)
57
Justin: go read
this letter.
BTW if you ask a soldier if he wants to go home he will say yes. If you ask them if they think all soldiers should quit and go home they will say no. Your stat is based on a loaded question.
It's at best tortured reasoning to say that you are supporting the troops by keeping them there if they want to come home.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 24, 2007 10:24 AM (40R2V)
58
Justin:
Why doesnt the media report ONE SINGLE good thing about Iraq?
We have walked right into Osama's trap. Iraq and Israel were the only countries in the region
not involved in jihad, so Osama is delighted to see us bogged down there. What good news do you want to hear? How many of our troops haven't been killed yet? As I quoted above, many or most of the Iraqis think it's OK to attack our troops. You live in a fun house.
Be glad of the good news: America is mired in the swamps of the Tigris and Euphrates. Bush is, through Iraq and its oil, easy prey. Here is he now, thank God, in an embarassing situation and here is America today being ruined before the eyes of the whole world.
--Osama bin Laden, video message broadcast October 18, 2003
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 24, 2007 10:30 AM (40R2V)
59
Justin:
Lex, support is when you say "Good job guys." or "We're behind you 100%"
I said above they've performed excellently, and that's what I believe. I am behind them 100%. I want them to be fighting a war that they can win or not at all, not dying for a failed president's vanity. They're in a war for hearts and minds where most of the Iraqis think it's okay to attack our troops and want us to leave. What a fiasco.
The troops want to leave, too. I'm supporting them, you are condemning them. One poll showed "Only 1 in 5 troops want an open commitment."
or "We belive in what your dying for." not when you say "You lost the war" "The war is unwinnable", "We have no confidence in you", "We dont believe your generals know what they are doing. We (congress) are more qualified for that job."
The war is not winnable, so it's cowardly to lie and say it is. The soldiers did not a thing wrong, it was Bush, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Feith, Cheney, et al, and people like you who keep wanting to double down instead of preserving the resources we have left.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 24, 2007 10:38 AM (40R2V)
60
To Lex Steele: If you will check my comments, I have not actually used profanity; and no, I am not reduced to profanity because the facts are on my side. Sorry, Lex Steele, but it is you who really do not have a clue. The assertions you make are not true. What you say reflects that what you htink you know ios based on what you read, but you lack experience. You are just citing this biased poll and that piece of "reporting" in the mainstream media to weave together your argument for cutting and running from Iraq and accepting the radical Islamist defeat of the democratically elected Iraqi government that operates under a democratically elected written Constitution. You are not thinking ahead in terms of what that will mean in Iraq and in what is a war with the radical Islamists. You are a defeatist, but the troops, including my older son, are not. Your assertion that the troops want to leave Iraq is just laughably wrong. If you ask a single soldier in World War II or in Iraq, if he would like to go home, the answer is likely to be yes; but that answer did not mean that the soldiers did not want to defeat Hitler or Tojo in World War II and does not mean that the soldiers do not want to defeat al Qaeda and local allied insurgents in Iraq.
Posted by: Phil Byler at April 24, 2007 01:44 PM (qthJd)
61
Phil,
Again, your son has my best wishes, and I appreciate his service.
However I'll go to my grave believing that we cannot foist democracy onto a populace that thinks it's okay to attack our troops and wants them to leave. I'm not even sure if Democracy's the goal anymore. Bush's goal is clearly to let the next guy clean up.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 24, 2007 11:37 PM (40R2V)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Temporary Safety
It never ceases to amaze me how little self-avowed liberals are so
purposefully ignorant about their own Constitution:
Our famous Constitution, about which many of us are generally so proud, enshrines -- along with the right to freedom of speech, press, religion and assembly -- the right to own guns. That's an apples and oranges list if there ever was one.
Not all of us are so proud and triumphant about the gun-guarantee clause. The right to free speech, press, religion and assembly and so on seem to be working well, but the gun part, not so much.
The dolt who wrote this, Tom Plate, is not surprisingly the former editor of the Los Angeles Times.
He is hardly alone.
Another journalist, Walter Shapiro of Salon stated the following earlier this week:
Fifteen unambiguous words are all that would be required to quell the American-as-apple-pie cycle of gun violence that has now tearfully enshrined Virginia Tech in the record book of mass murder. Here are the 15 words that would deliver a mortal wound to our bang-bang culture of death: "The second article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby repealed."
[snip]
Looking at the Bill of Rights with more than two centuries' hindsight, it is simply irrational that firearms have a protected position on par with freedom of speech and religion. Were Americans -- liberal or conservative -- writing a Constitution completely from scratch today, they probably would agree that something akin to "freedom to drive" was more far important than the "right to bear arms." The rights of state militias (which many liberal legal theorists argue is the essence of the Second Amendment) are as much a throwback to an 18th century mind-set as restrictions on quartering soldiers in private homes during peacetime (the little-remembered Third Amendment).
Alexander Hamilton, were he still alive today, may have chosen to respond to these craven abdications of responsibility by reiterating the following:
To model our political system upon speculations of lasting tranquility, is to calculate on the weaker springs of the human character.
What Hamilton means, and both to Plate and Shaprio are too dim, too pampered, and yes, too cowardly to let cross their minds, is the fact that no system of government is perfect, including our own Republic. It is the very nature of government to attempt to consolidate power, usurping for itself the rights and powers afforded to other branches and levels of governments on some occasions, and always, always from the people themselves.
It is because of the creeping pervasiveness and the promised tyranny of government (the same tyranny liberals constantly accuse the Executive of trying to implement on every other issue facing this nation, but noticeably fall silent on here) that arms must always be held by the people, for the people, as Noah Webster observed in "An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution."
Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive.
The Second Amendment was never about hunting, or sportsmanship. The Second Amendment was, and still is, the singular Amendment guaranteeing all others. To dismantle the Second, as John Adams noted in "A Defence of the Constitutions of the United States,":
...is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government.
As goes the Second Amendment, so does the United States of America itself. Without a "well regulated militia"--"regulated" meaning practiced and competent with arms, the "militia" recognized as all people of military age and capability--the United States falls.
Noted Patrick Henry:
Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.
The Second Amendment of the Constitution was never about self defense from criminals. To the Founders, that right was inherent, provided by the Creator above. The purpose of the Second Amendment was to enshrine in this nation the capability to take this nation back by force from a corrupt government, overthrowing it if necessary.
So wrote Supreme Court Associate Justice Joseph Story in "Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States":
The next amendment is: 'A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.'
"The importance of this article will scarcely be doubted by any persons, who have duly reflected upon the subject. The militia is the natural defence of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic insurrections, and domestic usurpations of power by rulers...
The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them.(1) And yet, though this truth would seem so clear, and the importance of a well regulated militia would seem so undeniable, it cannot be disguised, that among the American people there is a growing indifference to any system of militia discipline, and a strong disposition, from a sense of its burdens, to be rid.
It is no accident that Justice Story chose to use the word "palladium" to describe the critical importance of the Second Amendment, which is defined as:
- A safeguard, especially one viewed as a guarantee of the integrity of social institutions: the Bill of Rights, palladium of American civil liberties.
- A sacred object that was believed to have the power to preserve a city or state possessing it.
The Second Amendment is our palladium, that sacred object that preserves our Republic as a nation of men instead of a nation of laws slaved to tyrants.
Story accurately pegs Plate, Shapiro, and others that do not wish to be yoked with the responsibility of protecting themselves, or their nation. It is a burden too heavy for them to carry, a responsibility they wish to be rid of. To a man, their ilk ignores the lessons history would teach, and call for the power and responsibility to be handed to the very state that would ensnare them.
They are sheep: fearful, bleating, unwilling to deal with the weighted cost of freedom. They would trade all their freedoms for the temporary illusion of safety.
I think we know how the Founder might have responded to that sentiment.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:49 PM
| Comments (12)
| Add Comment
Post contains 1198 words, total size 8 kb.
1
Thanks, Bob, for this great piece, and doing all that research. I think I would have liked Patrick Henry.
I would just like to add that gun grabbers are always claiming that this militia clause means that guns were to be locked up in an armory.
When you encounter this argument, ask the person what a Minute Man was. A Minute Man was a citizen who could transform himself into a soldier in a minute's time by taking his military capable musket from its rack in his home, and stepping out his front door to joing his similarly armed neighbors marching down the road.
Also, since the citizens of the new country did NOT give up their guns to the government to be locked up in armories, ask WHY the new citizens immediately started, and continued to VIOLATE the very Constitution they had just finished ratifying -- if locked up guns in government hands is what the 2nd means?
It is no accident that the First Amendment with its several rights rests upon the Second which contains just one right.
Posted by: Bill Smith at April 20, 2007 01:21 PM (nMNv7)
2
Discussions about the second amendment seem unusual in that they always go back directly to the language of the original document, rather than to the case law and interpretations that have arisen since then.
In this spirit, then, if the ideas of the "well-regulated militia" and the right of gun ownership are so closely linked, could it not be argued that universal enrollment in the militia is implied, just as some suggest that universal gun ownership is implied?
Could we not look at the second amendment as saying that everyone needs to be on active reserve in the military? As Uncle Ben says in Spider-Man, "With great power comes great responsibility."
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 20, 2007 03:04 PM (nrafD)
3
Doc, we are. What do you think your Selective Service Card is?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 20, 2007 03:07 PM (9y6qg)
4
Beyond even a constitutional argument lies the nature of rights. Do we have "natural" or, as stated in the Declaration of Independence, "unalienable" Rights or do our rights flow from the government.
It is doubtful any one would support the latter proposition. Thus, it is fair to say we have "unalienable Rights", including rights to "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"
If one has an "unalienable" right to Life, i would posit that you have also the right to protect that right, with force if necessary.
If i was to make an argument that private ownership of firearms was not constitutional, i would rely on the 2nd Amendment and that portion of the Constitution that permits Congress to
"To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;"
My argument would be that Congress has the authority to arm the militia and thus the right to store such arms in a central armory or even decide on the kinds of arms, if any, the milita were to use.
This argument has problems, notably that the Constitution was amended to include the Second Amendment and that suggests that whatever Congress felt about their power to arm militias, the arms were to remain in the possession of the citizens.
Posted by: Rich at April 20, 2007 04:25 PM (lF2Kk)
5
could it not be argued that universal enrollment in the militia is implied
Not implied at all. Explicit.
Take a look at 10 USC 311 and how federal law defines "militia".
Kinda shoots down the national guard rationalizations eh?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 20, 2007 06:45 PM (kr/gV)
6
What people have to realize is that not a single person in Virginia was killed by a gun. They were killed by a madman.
Every, single safeguard for the students failed. The killer was known to be a dangerous psycho. Yet no one did anything about it. The background checks to purchase the guns proved to be a joke like everyone knows, the kids could not protect themselves, the cops were totally ineffective at all times, only threatening the innocent and exposing them to danger from friendly fire.
Now people want more regulation. For those of you who feel you do not need a gun, come down to Shreveport with me on a Saturday night and we will walk some of the local streets together. Of cocurse I will be armed.
Posted by: David Caskey at April 20, 2007 07:13 PM (r9Q7T)
7
My argument would be that Congress has the authority to arm the militia
"Shall" and "may" are quite different terms. Which one do you advocate?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 20, 2007 09:13 PM (kr/gV)
8
Confederate Yankee, I would concede that you're right on many accounts about the Second Amendment, and that during the 18th century, such a right did ensure the citizens' "capability to take [the US] back by force from a corrupt government, overthrowing it if necessary."
However, the United States Military, if at some point turned against its own citizens, would hardly find challenges while possessing infantry fighting vehicles, Apache helicopters, biological weapons, or nuclear weapons. The US military (currently operating on $419.3 Bil.) would overwhelm such a militia, easily. This was not the case back when the Second Amendment was being considered. How does this play within your argument and does this pose an interesting question to not only the topic stated but to the dangers of an overwhelming military budget more generally?
Posted by: Joel at April 21, 2007 03:34 AM (Zz+O+)
9
would hardly find challenges
Other than power outages, logistics shortages, etc. Irate truckers and infrastructure operators can cause a lot of problems.
Life is tough when those food deliveries get hijacked by the resistance, the trucks "breakdown", etc.
Rather amazing the British were ever defeated in the revolution. They had all the modern technology of the day, well trained troops, etc.
But wait - they couldn't have been defeated according to you.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 21, 2007 03:32 PM (kr/gV)
10
Let's assume for the sake of discussion that guns are here to stay.
Why the hell are so many people being shot to death in the U.S.? How do we solve the problem? Firearms training? It seems like that would only teach a potential shooter how to kill more efficiently. In the same way, bartender training wouldn't teach someone to drink responsibly; it would only teach them to prepare better-tasting booze.
Assuming the widespread distribution of weapons, the problem seems insoluble. Insights from all sides would be appreciated. This whole thing is bumming me out.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 21, 2007 06:55 PM (JeAx4)
11
So CS, you're saying we need guns for a future insurgency?
Just kidding. I know what you're saying. This argument is very intriguing.
Posted by: dmarek at April 21, 2007 08:03 PM (rhcj5)
12
Doc, the first thing you need to do is look at WHO those "so many people being shot to death in the U.S." really are. The Brady Campaign is not the place to look at that. For example, they make a huge deal about how many "children" are supposedly shot to death in the US. Their definition of child ends at age 20, 2 years past the US government's.
Then when you start looking inside those numbers, you find that the majority are between 15 and 20 year old gang-bangers. These are not the ones who will bother getting a CHL, mostly because their records would prevent them from legally buying a gun in the first place.
What we are talking about is training and arming the law-abiding to resist the criminals who will have guns anyway. A fine example is the state of Florida, which implemented shall-issue permitting. 2 years later, exactly one of those new permit holders had been arrested for a crime involving a gun.
Posted by: SDN at April 22, 2007 07:54 PM (TIw0n)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Joe Biden: The Virginia Tech Massacre is the GOP's Fault
I
kid you not:
Speaking at Al Sharpton's National Action Network event in New York, Biden said President Bush, Newt Gingrich and Karl Rove are responsible for what he called "the politics of polarization."
Biden said Republicans have created an environment that brings bad things to the United States.
"I would argue, since 1994 with the Gingrich revolution, just take a look at Iraq, Venezuela, Katrina, what's gone down at Virginia Tech, Darfur, Imus. Take a look. This didn't happen accidentally, all these things," he said.
I'm surprised Biden didn't find time to work in bird flu, the Sumatra-Andaman earthquake and tsunami, some 9/11 "truth," and John Edward's $400 haircut in there as well. Perhaps he's saving those for a rainy day.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:36 AM
| Comments (3)
| Add Comment
Post contains 142 words, total size 1 kb.
1
I'm blaming it on global warming. Everything bad these days is the fault of global warming.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 20, 2007 10:53 PM (kr/gV)
2
Well, name ONE bad thing that happened before Bush, Gingrich and Rove were in power. Can't, can you? Thousands of years of human development went by without a hitch until then. Damn Republicans and their politics of polarization!
Posted by: DoorHold at April 21, 2007 10:59 AM (VbPGQ)
3
Well obviously the answer to VA Tech massacre is to repeal the tax cuts for the wealthiest 1-percenters and to impeach Dick Cheney.
(Aren't those the democrat plans to solve everything?)
Posted by: muckdog at April 22, 2007 11:55 PM (s/Vux)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Va Tech Massacre Updates: An Incompetent Retired ATF Agent; and a Dishonest Lede from CBS
Allahpundit has been burning the midnight oil at
Hot Air, and has some shocking updates on the Virginia Tech massacre perpetrated by a deranged student, Cho Seung-Hui.
First, NBC is now claiming that Cho had a staggering number of magazines, including extended 33-round magazines:
Virginia State Police say they're nearly done with their on-scene investigation at Virginia Tech. But inside the classroom building, investigators say they found a surprising number of handgun magazines, or clips — 17. Some, officials say, were high-capacity magazines that hold 33 rounds. That means, investigators say, that Cho may have fired at least 200 times during his killing spree on Monday.
As AP notes, this contradicts a WaPo story I cited yesterday, which said:
Cho reloaded several times, using 15-round magazines for the Glock and 10-round magazines for the Walther, investigators said...
I wouldn't be surprised to see that Cho had multiple magazines, but 17 is a huge number of full magazines to carry. If 15 of those were standard 15 round Glock 19 magazines, that would give him 225 rounds, plus 20 in the 2 10-round P22 factory magazines for a total of 245 rounds. If some of those Glock magazines were the extended 31 and 33-round magazines as NBC now claims, he could easily have been carrying in excess of 300 rounds, and that doesn't include any loose or boxed ammunition he may have had.
I'll try to run this down, and see which investigators are getting this story right.
Before I go on, however, I'm going to take issue with retired ATF agent Joseph Vince, who NBC quotes in their article:
In the photos Cho sent to NBC, he showed some of his ammunition — hollow-point rounds, purchased, officials say, in the weeks before the shootings. Law enforcement officials say hollow-points are generally considered more lethal.
Joseph Vince, a retired ATF agent, agrees.
"It's not something that you would need for home protection, because what you are trying to do is eliminate an immediate threat," Vince says. "The idea of killing is what this ammunition portrays to me."
Vince is unequivocally wrong in this instance, and I don't see how he could be misquoted.
Hollowpoint and frangible ammunition is precisely the kind of ammunition you would want for home defense and personal protection.
Vince seems to be implying that FMJ ball, soft-nosed, wadcutter, semi-wadcutter or round-nosed lead bullets would be a more favorable choice for home defense than hollowpoints or frangible ammunition, and that is not only wrong, but ignorant and I'd go as far as to say it is stupid.
FMJ ball, soft-nosed (jacketed bullets with an exposed lead tip), wadcutter, semi-wadcutter or round-nosed lead bullets are solid bullets that do not typically change shape much when encountering human-sized targets or most building materials. As a result, if someone has to fire one of these bullets at a person, only one of two things can happen:
- The shooter hits his target and the bullet over-penetrates, goes through his target, and runs the risk of going through building materials and other people with enough velocity to kill or wound someone else. Depending on the caliber, these bullets can hit a human and retain enough energy to completely pass through with enough force to go through several more sheetrock walls and still retain enough energy to kill someone else. Because these bullets typically go through a target while still retaining a great amount of energy, they are by definition not translating that energy into stopping power, and cause less damage to the primary target than would hollowpoint or frangible ammunition, which tend to expend more or all of their energy into the target, translating to more stopping power on directly comparable shots.
- The shooter misses his target, and the bullet goes through multiple layers of building materials. FMJ ball, soft-nosed (jacketed bullets with an exposed lead tip), wadcutter, semi-wadcutter or round-nosed lead bullets will typically retain their shape and energy far better than hollowpoint or frangible ammunition, and will therefore penetrate far more layers of building materials. Many solid centerfire pistol bullets will penetrate more than a dozen layers of sheetrock if they don't encounter something with more mass (a 2x stud, other materials, or a human body).
I recall at least one instance where a home owner in a home invasion scenario fired a FMJ bullet (.45 ACP 230-grain FMJ, I think) that missed his target, exited his home, completely went through another home entirely, and finally lodged in the far bedroom wall of a third home, above a sleeping girl's head. Had she been sitting up, she could have been seriously injured or killed.
Hollowpoints that function as designed open into a mushroom shape, and offer far more surface area for friction to affect once they start encountering other objects. They will not penetrate as far as the various solid bullet designs in identical circumstances as a result. If they hit their human target, the hollowpoint bullet transfers mote energy into a target, and stands greater likelihood of incapacitating the assailant when compared to identical shot placement from any of the solid bullet designs. Likewise, those hollowpoints that completely penetrate the human target will be more likely to stop faster than solid designed when encountering building materials, also because of the wider surface area.
In most (not all) home defense scenarios, frangible ammunition, while far more expensive than either the hollowpoint or solid ammunition designs, is the best option. When a homeowner confronts an assailant and is forced to fire directly at his target with no intervening material separating them, the frangible bullet fragments inside the target, transferring most or all of it's ammunition to its target on a hit. Tests on French alpine goats in the Strasbourg (sp?) tests confirmed that frangible bullet designs are superior to all other bullets designs in incapacitating a human-sized target, with various hollowpoint designs coming in behind, and solid designs behind hollowpoints in terms of effectiveness.
Joseph Vince, retired AFT agent or not, is horribly, horribly wrong here.
Allahpundit goes on to note that if Virginia had forwarded Choo's mental health evaluation to the federal government, Cho should have never been able to buy the Glock:
The magistrate ruled in 2005 that Cho presented “an imminent danger to self or others as a result of mental illness, or is so seriously mentally ill as to be substantially unable to care for self and is incapable of volunteering or unwilling to volunteer for treatment.” He should have been in the FBI’s NICS system, but apparently states don’t always provide mental-health records as fully as they might or should.
If this CBS News story is correct, then Cho bought his Walther P22 online. Horrors!
Oh wait. He didn't. Media ignorance and misrepresentation once again rears its ugly head:
On this same day, the gun was shipped to JND Pawnbrokers in Blacksburg, Va., where Cho picked up the gun two days later. The federally licensed store then did a background check.
First, the sequence of events in paragraph is backwards. Cho could only pick up the gun after the NICS check, and that is what occurred. CBS News ignorance, or purposeful design? You make the call.
The actual sequence of events run in direct opposition to what the article claims in the lede:
On Feb. 2, Cho Seung-Hui bought a Walther .22 caliber pistol from the online retail store www.thegunsource.com. It was the first and only time he ever used this particular Web site.
Without a Federal Firearms License (FFL), Cho could not directly by a gun through mail order or online, as the lede improperly states. It isn't until the final paragraph that we learn Cho did not buy the gun from the online site.
Instead, he chose the model he wanted and had it shipped to a business with a FFL, where he then went through the normal purchase process, as you would in any retail firearms purchase.
This tragedy at Virginia Tech is horrible, but the reporting of it thus far is showing us either the professional media is a bunch of bumbling incompetents, or are agenda-driven deceivers.
I'm not sure which possibility frightens me the most.
Update: Ace calls foul. Actually, he calls a word I won't use on a family-friendly blog, but you get the picture. Go read it.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:21 AM
| Comments (20)
| Add Comment
Post contains 1416 words, total size 9 kb.
1
How much does 300 rounds of that ammo and clips weigh? I would think quite a bit. Yet this gup is walking all over campus with the stuff.
I think the MSM and liberals need to answer how this occured with all the restrictions in place that they desire. Of course they don't want guns at all, but look what happen in Australia when that occured.
Posted by: David Caskey at April 20, 2007 10:39 AM (G5i3t)
2
bunch of bumbling incompetents, or are agenda-driven deceivers
All of the above.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 20, 2007 10:45 AM (0FEBg)
3
At least now I understand what a co-worker was blathering on about, "Illegal this and illegal that." I had heard not one word about his purchases being illegal so I didn't have anything usefull to say in response. If she got her "dis-information" from the press it all makes sense now.
Pity his psych records weren't forwarded ("pity" is such an inadequate word for this).
Posted by: DoorHold at April 20, 2007 10:58 AM (BzJd6)
4
Well, he had to lie about the mental illness adjudication on the 4473's, so that was his first felony before he ever owned a gun.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 20, 2007 11:23 AM (0FEBg)
5
Well, US Army troops routinely carry at least 210 rounds - one 30rd mag in the rifle, six in the pouches.
Perhaps more if they want to. They may also still be slightly underloading the 30rd mags to avoid jams.
IIRC, each mag is about a pound or two loaded.
Posted by: SGT Jeff (USAR) at April 20, 2007 12:14 PM (yiMNP)
6
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity, but don't rule out malice. " -- Robert A. Heinlein (also claimed by some others). There's definitely a lot of something going around these days.
I excerpted and linked at VTech+4: Where to from here?
Posted by: Bill Faith at April 20, 2007 12:16 PM (n7SaI)
7
Cho probably DID buy the gun online. He paid the online store for the gun and paid to ship the gun to the FLL near him. He was almost certainly charged a fee by the local FFL to process the paperwork.
It's a technicality, I know, but since you're fussing at the media for getting it wrong, you might want to check with a local gun dealer and find out exactly how they handle such purchases.
Posted by: LibbyLA at April 20, 2007 01:21 PM (W/lOe)
8
It's a technicality, I know, but since you're fussing at the media for getting it wrong, you might want to check with a local gun dealer and find out exactly how they handle such purchases.
Libby, I
am a "gun dealer."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 20, 2007 01:49 PM (9y6qg)
9
I wonder if rather than 17 magazines, he had some number of 17 round magazines.
Posted by: Rich at April 20, 2007 02:43 PM (om6ls)
10
"It's not something that you would need for home protection, because what you are trying to do is eliminate an immediate threat," Vince says. "The idea of killing is what this ammunition portrays to me."
I agree. Therefore, police officers should no longer carried their preferred round, the Federal Hydroshock. It's a menace to the public. Just ask that old black widow lady in Atlanta.
Posted by: HerrMorgenholz at April 20, 2007 02:44 PM (5aa4z)
11
When the M-16 came out years ago, it was decided by the military for humanitarian (Geneva Convention??) reasons that jacketed bullets should be used, not hollow-points. This was because the jacketed bullets did considerably less damage and would typically wound people, removing them from action as well as the people it took to get them off the field of fire for medical treatment. Hollow points are designed to kill-Period.
Posted by: Robert at April 20, 2007 03:46 PM (/In4Y)
12
Robert said:
This was because the jacketed bullets did considerably less damage... Hollow points are designed to kill-Period.
We're talking handgun rounds here, they're not going fast enough to create what's called hydrostatic shock, like a rifle bullet going at near 2,000 ft/sec.
Unless you're shooting stuff designated as Less Lethal - bean bag shotgun, etc. - it's all designed with killing in mind. Within the USA, if you're shooting at somebody, the Goblin must generally be threatening grave bodily harm or death before you open fire. That means anytime you shoot at somebody, you must be justified in killing them - PERIOD. And you need to be able to prove that to a court.
Posted by: James Griffin at April 20, 2007 04:27 PM (fyNPJ)
13
By the way, by my scale 300 rounds of 9mm Federal HST +P 124grain hollow point, in original boxes weighs just about 8.72 pounds. Not a great deal. Weight of magazines - non 33 round - is about 3 or 4 ounces each.
Posted by: James Griffin at April 20, 2007 04:40 PM (fyNPJ)
14
These are the kinds of stories you get from agenda-driven people who don't know squat about guns.
Very much like the man-made global warming stories written by C-average non-science students.
Sheesh.
Posted by: cbe at April 20, 2007 04:44 PM (j9AiS)
15
Ummm, that's cube, not cbe.
:-)
Posted by: cube at April 20, 2007 04:45 PM (j9AiS)
16
Robert,
You are an incorrect.
The ban in international land warfare of “Hollow Points” has nothing to do with the advent of the "M16" (Armalite) series of rifles. The ban on Dum-Dum bullets has been in place for land warfare since the Hague Convention of 1899. In fact the current use of FMJ/AP ammunition is hotly debated as possibly both unnecessary and bad practice amongst combat veterans of the late war. Of course a lot of that talk is from speculation, hyperbole and Soldiers who don’t shoot well or have unrealistic expectations of a hit/kill ratio from *any* round. Further, the “DC Sniper” did a pretty freakin good job of killing people with usually one round fired from an Armalite clone.
Do some homework before you spout, Wiki and Google are free:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dum-dum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56_x_45_mm_NATO
http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/29-1220.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beltway_sniper_attacks
Posted by: Moriarti tha Kaffir at April 21, 2007 09:44 AM (YGEpn)
17
Hollowpoint bullets are not all automatically banned from combat. The US military is currently using a 77-grain hollowpoint in 5.56x45 in Iraq and Afghanistan that is Geneva compliant.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 21, 2007 11:26 AM (HcgFD)
18
actually, the ban on hollow points, etc., is still in full effect.
though it is true that the mk262 77 grain ammo does have a "hollow tip", that hollow is a result of the bullet manufacturing process. i.e., since the hollow is not intended to cause greater damage, we've authorized ourselves to use it in combat.
Posted by: jk at April 22, 2007 12:02 PM (oOT6G)
19
I too am a retired ATF Special Agent and Joe Vince was my ASAC (Assistant Special Agent in Charge) in Chicago. You are correct on two counts: Joe don't know beans about firearms, and never did, and your assessment of bullet/projectile types is correct.
Posted by: Zebra 54 at April 23, 2007 12:47 PM (G7wJO)
20
Looks like Vince is a ringer. Check this out:
"Well, a quick Google search of the retired ATF agent's name provided the answer in Wikipedia:
"The American Hunters and Shooters Association (AHSA) is an association of hunters and shooters in the United States that was founded in 2005. As an advocacy group it presents itself as a force of moderation and "common sense" in the debate over gun politics in the United States. Its critics say it is a front organization whose real goal is to eliminate the rights of gun owners by driving a wedge into the gun rights movement.
"Leadership
The leaders of the AHSA are:
[snip]
"* Joseph J. Vince, Jr., a member of the Board of Directors is the former chief of the BATF's crime guns analysis branch. Currently, he is a principal of Crime Gun Solutions. [Handgun Control Inc] has hired Crime Gun Solutions in order to support numerous gun control laws, to support HCI's lawsuits against firearm dealers and he was a signer on a letter submitted to Congress opposing the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act."
http://rovianconspiracy.blogspot.com/2007/04/msnbc-fails-to-identify-expert-in-va.html
Posted by: Poshboy at April 23, 2007 10:12 PM (GCpcA)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
April 19, 2007
Hammering Ross
I'm not the only one noting the anti-gun dishonesty of Brian Ross and ABC News.
The Washington Times rips into them in "Inside Politics," calling the deceptive Ross and Dana Hughes blog entry a Media Misfire.
I'd add that they quote impeccable sources.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
07:36 PM
| Comments (2)
| Add Comment
Post contains 47 words, total size 1 kb.
1
Nice to see you making the news, CY.
Posted by: Dusty at April 20, 2007 11:08 AM (GJLeQ)
2
LOL. Do you think Ross will get the message or were the words to big for him? I mean magazines v. clips, etc....
Posted by: Specter at April 20, 2007 03:19 PM (ybfXM)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
The Lyrical McCain
Ah, how
interesting...
Another man — wondering if an attack on Iran is in the works — wanted to know when America is going to "send an air mail message to Tehran."
McCain began his answer by changing the words to a popular Beach Boys song.
"Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran," he sang to the tune of Barbara Ann. "Iran is dedicated to the destruction of Israel. That alone should concern us but now they are trying for nuclear capabilities. I totally support the President when he says we will not allow Iran to destroy Israel."
He stopped short of answering the actual question and did not say if he supports an invasion of Iran.
I haven't been this amused by a sung answer to a political question since I spoofed Phil Collins in 2005 in a story about a famous Cuban boy with the headline, It's No Fun, Being an Illegal Elian.
Now if would just launch into a redition of "Another one bites the dust" in reference to McCain-Feingold, I might just forgive him.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:38 AM
| Comments (4)
| Add Comment
Post contains 183 words, total size 1 kb.
1
I have forgiven John McCain. My older son is a U.S. Army First Lieutenant serving in Iraq, and I greatly appreciate John McCain's stout and at times eloquent defense of our nation's efforts in the Iraq War.
Posted by: Phil Byler at April 19, 2007 01:48 PM (qthJd)
2
I respectfully suggest to conservatives to "forgive" John McCain. People should read his recent speech at VMI. John McCain, the son and grandson of U.S. Navy Admirals, is the most knowledgeable person in the presidential field in military, national defense and war on terror issues. He was right in his criticisms of the post-invasion strategy in Iraq and is right now in strongly supporting General Petraeus.
John McCain is also pro-life; his books on courage and chracter are gems; he is a fiscal conservative; and he has taken the pledge to the Federalist Society to nominate traditional jurists such as John Roberts and Sam Alito to the U.S. Supreme Court. For the issues facing the nation ahead, John McCain's strengths are great, and he can defeat Hillary or Obama. The policies that Hillary or Obama will follow will be left wing and will lead to terrible results that will make Jimmy Carter look good in comparison.
Posted by: Phil Byler at April 19, 2007 01:58 PM (qthJd)
3
I have a lot of problems with McCain but at least his son has enlisted in the Marines, which is highly unusual for any leader of either party.
It matters if you have skin in the game.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 19, 2007 01:59 PM (kxecL)
4
"Bomb Iran" was the title of a novelty tune that was got some airplay back in 1979-80, when Iran committed its' first act of war against the United States.
Posted by: Mike James at April 19, 2007 03:38 PM (EKk77)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
A Proposal for Collegiate Concealed Carry
One of my liberal regulars made the following observation in
this post, which got me thinking if there was a "right way" to implement the carrying of concealed weapons at colleges and universities:
The thing that surprises me about the news coverage is the idea that this can be blamed on the fact that this campus was a "no firearm" zone. I didn't know that there was a "fully armed" option when it came to college campuses.
Let's all cast our minds back to college, shall we? I'm willing to bet that every one of us was, to some degree or another, a horse's ass back then. Do we want fully-armed horse's asses on our college campuses? It seems like a bad idea to me.
The idea that more weapons on campus would solve this problem is counterintuitive. This guy was on campus, and he had a weapon, and he killed 33 people.
"Fully armed" college campuses are of course a horrible idea for the very reasons implied above, which are primarily a lack of maturity and the abundant flow of alcohol and other recreational drugs. It would be a recipe for further increasing recipients of the Darwin Awards, and that is something we are certainly against.
What is reasonable, however, is giving students, faculty, and staff who meet certain rigorous standards the ability to bring handguns on campus for the defense of themselves and others in extraordinary life-threatening circumstances.
Here is my proposal.
The minimum age to purchase a handgun is 21 years old in most states. By definition, this would limit concealed carry to mostly juniors, seniors and graduate students, non-traditional (older) underclassmen, faculty, and staff.
Limit concealed carry to students housed off-campus, and to faculty and staff members. Firearms would not be allowed in the dormitories. This is both a practical and legal consideration. In-dorm firearms could not be secured properly and uniformly, and should not be allowed.
Those students, faculty and staff must prove that they have secure storage for their firearms in their off-campus dwellings.
They must register the firearm they wish to carry on campus with the university police, and qualify with that firearm to show proficiency and safety at least once per calendar year. These requirements are already served by the current CCW licensing process in some states, and actually exceed the CCW licensing of others, who may only require a one-time qualifying performance. It is also comparable to the qualifying guidelines of most police departments.
In addition to these state guidelines, those faculty, staff and off-campus students who qualify under state CCW guidelines should also take a university-prescribed course detailing any additional campus restrictions, and then require them to pass a written test showing these understand both state CCW laws and campus restrictions.
Universities should adopt guidelines for acceptable firearms and ammunition for those who wish to carry on campus, using the following as a general outline:
- All university-approved CCW firearms shall be of modern design and sound mechanical shape, as shall holsters and spare magazine carriers;
- All firearms shall be of standard self-defense calibers, and these calibers are designated as follows: .380 ACP, .38 Special, 9mm Parabellum, .357 SIG, 40 S&W, .44 Special, and .45 ACP or comparable cartridges;
- All firearms using lower-powered cartridges (below .380 ACP) shall not be allowed;
- All firearms using higher-power cartridges (.357, .41, 44 Magnums, and above) shall not be allowed;
- All firearms using bottlenecked ammunition ( exception: .357 SIG) shall not be allowed;
- Only commercially-loaded frangible ammunition shall be allowed.
- Pistol magazines shall be of "standard length" (not exceeding the butt of the firearm but more than 1 inch, including any "bump" pads). The number of magazines would be restricted to one in the firearm and one spare magazine in an approved spare magazine carrier.
The guidelines above are very practical in nature. Certain calibers are simply better than others for CCW purposes, and the calibers cited above encompass the overwhelming majority of those in which defensive handguns are chambered. The frangible ammunition mandate may be new to some that are more familiar with full metal-jacketed (FMJ) and hollowpoint ammunition, and so may need to be explained.
Frangible ammunition is designed to fragment or disintegrate upon or shortly after contact. This significantly reduces the dangers associated with overpenetration, by transferring most or all of the projectile's energy into the target as the bullet fragments. While typically being more lethal to the target, frangible ammunition is not as likely to penetrate structural components (walls, floors, doors). Glaser and MagSafe are two of the most common examples.
As for carrying and storage guidelines, all students would be required to carry their firearms and magazines on their persons at all times while on campus (not in a desk, satchel, purse, or bookbag), and all faculty and staff would be expected to follow these same guidelines, with the additional provision that firearms can be kept in individual locked offices in university-approved, bolted-down gun storage safes for faculty and staff.
The requirements and restrictions outlines above are only a rough roadmap of reasonable outlines for a campus concealed carry program.
A similarly-implemented plan would create an atmosphere where the faculty, staff, and students can be confident that those who are allowed to carry concealed weapons on campus are perhaps better trained than their CCW-licensed counterparts in the rest of society, and are arguably as well trained as some municipal police officers.
Your thoughts?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:46 AM
| Comments (63)
| Add Comment
Post contains 911 words, total size 6 kb.
1
Point 2 and point 5 are contradictory.
357 sig is a bottlenecked cartridge.
But point 5 seems rather silly anyway, bottlenecked cartridges feed more reliably so why ban reliablity?
Posted by: Liberrocky at April 19, 2007 09:58 AM (HR16A)
2
You've addressed most concerns I have but one. If you are on any psychiatric meds of any kind, have any psychiatric needs of any kind, or have been counseled at any time in the past for any related "illness" then no CCW for you.
Still, having said that, there are still those out there that could pass the rigors you stated and still should not be able to carry. Similarly, there are many people who have obtained a drivers license (though not nearly as scrutinized)and shouldn't be anywhere near a car.
Owning weapons is a unique thing. I own many, most or all of my friends own multiple weapons yet there are only a SMALL handful of them I go into the field with. They don't meet "my" standards. It's also sucks to think that 99.8% of people meeting the criteria above could have taken that VaTech creep out if.....
Posted by: markm at April 19, 2007 10:07 AM (hVOTO)
3
Also, if you have had any anger management needs (spousal abuse, road rage incidents, etc.)...no CCW for you. I'm sure there are more.
Posted by: markm at April 19, 2007 10:09 AM (hVOTO)
4
Good point on the .357 SIG, which I've now added an exemption for.
The reasons to ban bottlenecked catridges are twofold:
Most bottlenecked cartridges are rifle caliber cartridges not suitable for self-defense;most pistol-caliber bottlenecked cartridges are plagued with relatively low stopping power coupled with excessive penetration.
The .357 SIG is a notable exception, as it is essentially a 9mm in a necked-down 40 S&W case to attain higher velocities.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 19, 2007 10:14 AM (9y6qg)
5
Why are you putting so many restrictions on gun ownership and carry? Sound like a closet liberal to me. As I recall, the 2nd amendment doesn't allow for ANY of the myriad restrictions you call for, so -by definition- you are wrong. No restrictions on any carry, any where!!!
Posted by: Brent at April 19, 2007 11:31 AM (VBB8E)
6
wow...censored...you really don't like opposing views do you?
i actually am a big supporter of the 2nd. what with a government that illegally wiretaps its citizens, opens there mail, tracks their activities, subverts the constitution and treaties, tortures innocents, and politicizes the justice system...the 2nd may be all that saves this once great nation.
Posted by: jay k. at April 19, 2007 11:40 AM (yu9pS)
7
There are such people already...its called CAMPUS SECURITY...maybe if they spent less on football they would have more cops.
Posted by: madmatt at April 19, 2007 11:59 AM (J8hqn)
8
Better yet...all students are fitted with either magnetic boots (like in the prison in the movie Face Off), or electronic collars which either emit high frequency disabling sound, or stunning shocks (picture dog shock-collar and taser combined). When trouble is reported, everyone in an entire area/building/class can be either locked down or knocked out. Simple.
I think I'd rather accept that sh&t happens, that there are risks in life, and hope that my number isn't up. As tragic as VT was, the odds of anything like this happening to a single person are probably worse than getting hit by a meteor from space.
Posted by: Specter at April 19, 2007 12:03 PM (ybfXM)
9
"The sky is falling. The sky is falling." Quick - let's all panic......
Posted by: Specter at April 19, 2007 12:04 PM (ybfXM)
10
Not being a firearms guy, I'm not understanding why you'd restrict the caliber of the weapon. If you want to be able to kill people to protect yourself, don't you want to be able to go ahead and kill 'em good and dead?
Someone please explain in non-technical terms.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 19, 2007 01:05 PM (nrafD)
11
Doc
Larger, high powered rounds tend to poke a nice inlet hole and large outlet hole and keep on going. (not safe in a crowded situation). Smaller, less powerful rounds tend to stay inside the target minimizing the danger to bystanders.
Posted by: markm at April 19, 2007 01:17 PM (hVOTO)
12
Not being a firearms guy, I'm not understanding why you'd restrict the caliber of the weapon. If you want to be able to kill people to protect yourself, don't you want to be able to go ahead and kill 'em good and dead?
Someone please explain in non-technical terms.
I'll make it very simple: the smaller caliber cartridges aren't much good, the larger ones will go clear the bad guy with enough force to kill those behind them. The bottlenecked cartridges typically offer the worst of both worlds, having underwhelming stopping power and a bad record of overpenetration.
The calibers of cartridges I advocated for have a long record (more than 50 years of proven performance for all but two of them, the .40 S&W and the .357 SIG, both newer rounds very popular with police) of being able to do the job properly.
The choice of frangible ammunition wasn't accidental either. While it offers much less chance of overpenetrating, frangibles such as Magsafes and Glasers are also by far the most lethal rounds made in situations where direct shots are dictated, like most justifiable self defense shootings.
Yes, it seems contradictory that frangibles can be the safest and deadliest bullets at the same time, but it is the truth of the matter.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 19, 2007 01:28 PM (9y6qg)
13
Brent, the second ammendment states clearly that the reason for the right to bare arms is the requirement for a well regulated militia. Anybody wishing to own any firearm should be required to prove reasonable proficiency with it at the very least. Also that requirement might reasonable be construed to cover the requirement for particular calibers and ammunition types.
But the point is moot. Yankees proposal applied to college campuses, not the general public and were reasonable. There are strict guidlines about who gets to carry in a courthose, too. I hope you're not proposing that anyone can carry any weapon anywhere. The 2nd ammendment just doesn't provide that right.
Posted by: iaintbacchus at April 19, 2007 01:43 PM (mYHGQ)
14
Why not .22s or like smaller calibers? You want the weapons being carried, don;t you? A .22 in a purse or pocket is better than a .45 at home. And plenty of people have been killed with .22s. They are also easier to hit with and since the ammo is so much cheaper, more practice --> more accuracy is possible. The lower recoil of a .22 or .25 (for that centerfire reliability) is also desirable for female weapons bearers. Speaking of expense, IIRC, Glasers cost the earth, and are not available to all comers.
As for bottlenecked rounds, I suppose you are worried about a flood of Mausers and Tokarevs? Yeah, those Broomhandle Mausers have no place in combat.
As for larger calibers, while they might be impractical for concealed carry, why would they be more dangerous with frangible ammo? The intimidation factor of a magnum pistol might also serve to defuse the situation.
As for the safety and consistency of weapons storage in dorms, where else could it be more easily regularized? Have gun safes like the safes in hotel rooms.
One thing that would be useful at schools like VT would be some more attention to emergency communications. VT uses the ROLM phone campus-wide. Nothing would be easier than to program them with alert codes, whether for "Pick up now for this recorded emergency message" or "GET OUT NOW!!!!!"
Perhaps the campus need not have been evacuated after the shooting, but I see no reason not to flood the Drillfield area with rapid-response teams, extra patrols, and floorwalkers in the dorms and classrooms. While I am not against student or prof carry (esp. during regular class hours, when there SHOULD be less drunkenness, and when most of these sorts of shootings seem to happen), I am not sure it is the only answer.
Posted by: nichevo at April 19, 2007 02:50 PM (Xq6yl)
15
You guys are sounding like liberals.
No, seriously... for years, liberals have been trying to establish guidelines not unlike the ones you describe above. We've been fought at every step of the way. Why the sudden 180?
Posted by: Josh Yelon at April 19, 2007 03:31 PM (S0W+J)
16
josh...
haven't you been paying attention...conservatives have become liberals. conservative tenants have been abandoned. republicans are now everything they used to despise. and the dems are the adults in the room. welcome to bush-world.
Posted by: jay k. at April 19, 2007 03:58 PM (yu9pS)
17
the reason for the right to bare arms is the requirement for a well regulated militia.
Yeah! No one is going to take away my right to short sleeves!
Sorry...
Posted by: dicentra at April 19, 2007 04:03 PM (JPs/+)
18
If you want to be able to kill people to protect yourself...
Its not about killing them. Its about getting them to stop doing what they were doing. If they happen to survive, I'm OK with that.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 19, 2007 04:04 PM (0FEBg)
19
I just excerpted and linked at Virginia Tech: The Day After The Day After The Day After. I think you're definitely on the right track looking for a compromise. The 18 year old Freshman I was in 1968 knew how to shoot but had no business at all having a firearm anywhere near the campus. The 26 year old Junior I was in 1976 was an entirely different person; he even had a pretty little ribbon from Uncle Sam for proving he could shoot straight. [Aside: Check out Dafydd's comments on unofficial militias here.] I think it would have made perfectly good sense for that 26 year old Junior, and a lot of others who'd been through similar experiences, to have the legal right to carry a concealed weapon any time, any where. You're also quite correct that firearms have no place in the dorm, for the reasons you state. The only place I'll quibble with you is over the minimum caliber required for licensing. Gotta go with nichevo's take on that; a P-22 in the hip pocket is better than a Glock at home. Tell me I'm wrong and I'll take your word for it but I think even the most concealable .380 on the market is still significantly harder to conceal than some pretty decent .22s.
Posted by: Bill Faith at April 19, 2007 05:06 PM (n7SaI)
20
I agree with Specter. Life is full of risks. Mankind has eliminated or greatly reduced trhe big risks in life. We have a plentiful and cheap food supply, and antibiotics and vaccines have vanquished many infectious diseases that uses to kill us by the thousands or even millions. Now we are trying to mitigate incredibly small risks and that is folly. We will never live in a risk free world. As for the hand gun at college debate, even if one is allowed to carry a handgun to class, who is going to want to lug all that weight around every day on the chance that sometime in the next 30 yrs, a shooter might appear somewhere on some college campus?
Posted by: feeblemind at April 19, 2007 05:51 PM (UVpu+)
21
I disagree with your ban on FMJ and other non-frangible ammo. If an assailant wears body armor, some FMJ ammo will take him out. Most will at least knock him down, enabling a better chance at a head or gut shot. Frangible ammo usually will not even knock down a body armor-clad assailant.
chsw
PS: According to Basharee Murtadd, Cho is being praised as a Muslim in several Arab websites.
Posted by: chsw at April 19, 2007 08:30 PM (WdHqZ)
22
Anyone who thinks that permitting students to carry weapons would have reduced the loss of life at Virginia Tech is a pathetic fool.
Think about the situation. You are sitting in a classroom and hear gunfire. You are armed, so you decide to go after the guy (or maybe you just prepare to defend the room you are in, but some hotshots who play too many video games will get all Rambo and try too be a hero).
Several other armed students enter the hallways in search of the gunman as well. None of these students have combat or police training and they have no way to coordinate efforts. As you turn a corner, you see a figure step from a classroom with a gun, and you open fire--killing your best friend (who shot straighter at the range, but not as quickly). Now several armed people are roaming the halls, trying to save the day, shooting each other out of fear, shock, or mistaken identity. It is simply stupid to think that a bunch of 21 year olds with no training could manage this sort of situation after passing a written test and poking some holes in cardboard.
A few days at a range once a year does not qualify people to conduct operations best left to soldiers and police officers. Adding a bunch of well-armed but untrained kids to a situation like this is a recipe for more tragedy, not less.
You clearly know a lot about calibers and muzzle velocities and such, but you know nothing about how weapons are used in the real world--or you at least have no clue how this would look in real life if a bunch of wannabe Rambos tried to stop a homicidal maniac.
Guns of any kind in the hands of amateurs is not a solution, it's a problem, but you have bought so deeply into the "he-man gun owner's club" that you overlook how this stuff works in real life. For every successful use of a handgun to foil a crime, dozens of children or spouses are accidentally shot by people who had no business owning a gun.
Think about it--this deranged young man, with demonstrable psychiatric problems, simply walked into a store with a credit card and bought a dangerous weapon. What part of fucked up and stupid don't you understand?
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at April 19, 2007 09:31 PM (XNovw)
23
As guidelines for the schools only? I find these alright.
Specter:
I think I'd rather accept that sh&t happens, that there are risks in life, and hope that my number isn't up. As tragic as VT was, the odds of anything like this happening to a single person are probably worse than getting hit by a meteor from space.
As of about five years ago, there had been a single case of a human being hit by an asteroid. It was a little old lady, and she got a bruise.
Now, you ARE probably more likely to die in a plane crash than by a school shooting, or be the accidental victim of some loonie with a car. (Be the loonie drunk, deranged, high or a selection.)
Posted by: Foxfier at April 19, 2007 10:17 PM (zAx3d)
24
There is already a clear, established and verifiable method of deciding who can carry in campus. Its called a CHL or CCW. I had to receive 8 hours of classroom training, prove my proficiency in a range and submit to a background check before getting mine. Anything else is horse puckey. The mere thought that you would have the rigth to dictate what caliber ammunition I can carry in my legally carried firearm is specious. Registering the firearm with campus police only ensures that campus police can either reject my application or enact prohibitive fees.
r. stanton, you are an idiot. You have been watching too many movies. The armed citizens would either barricade and defend themselves in the classroom with their classmates or cover their retreat. Running into a hail of bullets would be no ones choice. The scenario would be the gunman walks into the classroom looking for victims and is greeted with lead. If necessary, students could be briefed on a plan of action in case of "deranged loner". Similar to fire drills. Everyone, barricade yourselves an those who are armed defend the rest.
Posted by: Rey at April 19, 2007 10:26 PM (KgGgV)
25
Foxfier,
Maybe the analogy was too specific, but you obviously understood the point. There is no way that we can "protect" ourselves from every possible, but statistically not-probable, event that
might occur. It isn't possible if you want to live a life that has contact with other humans (contact other than across the ether...).
Posted by: Specter at April 19, 2007 11:40 PM (ybfXM)
26
CY, you sure have a lot of trollers on here that I doubt even read your post.
I noticed the "provide all students with weapons" argument voiced by liberals too, and they might get their way again.
I understand what you're saying about a middle ground.
I've repeatedly read the liberal argument that we must either ban all weapons, or the federal govt must provide all people with weapons. What a goofy idea.
That's like saying that if you're against banning all airplanes in America, then the federal government must buy everyone their own personal airplane.
The valid question isn't "should we allow firearms?", but rather "should we ban them, and how and why, and to what extent?"
Posted by: brando at April 20, 2007 12:44 AM (uZ35s)
27
Via Allahpundit's latest, this snippet from the WaPo:Kevin Granata had heard the commotion in his third-floor office and ran downstairs. He was a military veteran, very protective of his students. He was gunned down trying to confront the shooter.
I hope the people responsible for the fact he wasn't armed are extremely proud of the way they kept the VT student body safe.
Posted by: Bill Faith at April 20, 2007 12:49 AM (n7SaI)
28
Just get over it. Guns at a school or in the workplace have no place. Ain't never going to happen no way no how.
You have the right to have a safe and secure workplace or learning environment. To that end all security personnel should carry firearms and be fully trained in their use.
Posted by: J at April 20, 2007 06:12 AM (puiMc)
29
Or we could just follow Oregons example and allow CCW anywhere but courthouses. It's been that way for almost 15 years with no incidents on campus or anywhere. Proving once again that only careful law abiding citizens bother with CCW. Oregon only requires a pistol safety course - no range qualification.
Posted by: Airhog at April 20, 2007 08:27 AM (+g0g3)
30
J:
You're the one who needs to "just get over it."
The one place where schools are safe is in Israel, where the teachers and parents are armed and there aren't any attacks on the students. As for the workplace, I would guess that almost all workplaces in America - flyover America - have armed employees present. Perhaps openly or perhaps on a "don't ask, don't tell" basis, but present all the same.
And there are no attacks there, either. Only in the big liberal cities, where they know the population has been disarmed, do criminals range freely. Only in Post Offices and schools where law makes the victims powerless do we have shootings every month.
In places where citizens can and do carry, there are fewer shootings.....and lunatics like Cho are able to kill only one or two before they meet with the justice they deserve.
Concealed carry by responsible citizens is the path back to a safe and peaceful America, and the overwhelming majority of us know that.
Get over it.
Posted by: askmom at April 20, 2007 08:40 AM (Hfh0I)
31
I've been hearing about "background checks" my whole life, but I don't know what they encompass. Could someone please tell me what a firearm background check actually checks? Does it weed out insane people?
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 20, 2007 08:40 AM (RdA1N)
32
Why not .22s or like smaller calibers? You want the weapons being carried, don;t you? A .22 in a purse or pocket is better than a .45 at home. And plenty of people have been killed with .22s. They are also easier to hit with and since the ammo is so much cheaper, more practice --> more accuracy is possible. The lower recoil of a .22 or .25 (for that centerfire reliability) is also desirable for female weapons bearers. Speaking of expense, IIRC, Glasers cost the earth, and are not available to all comers.
As for bottlenecked rounds, I suppose you are worried about a flood of Mausers and Tokarevs? Yeah, those Broomhandle Mausers have no place in combat.
.22s have weak stopping power, and there are literally dozens of pistol designs chambered for .380, 9mm, .40 S&W, .357 SIG and even .45ACP that are as small as .22 pistols. .25s often just really piss people off, and are typically chambered for "junk" guns. Anyone who recommends a .25 for defense should not be taken seriously.
As for bottleneck rounds, I'm not thinking much about ancient 7.65 rounds, but the most modern rounds, the 4.6mm and 5.7mm rounds designed for PDWs (personal defense weapons) that are also chambered for pistols, or will be. All of these rounds have questionable stopping power, as they tend to penetrate straight through a target with minimal damage without expending their energy, and keep right on going.
As for larger calibers, while they might be impractical for concealed carry, why would they be more dangerous with frangible ammo? The intimidation factor of a magnum pistol might also serve to defuse the situation.
Magnum pistols are typically too large for CCW, and have excessive muzzle blast and noise. Sure, they could work, but it's an academic argument, not a practical one.
Gotta go with nichevo's take on that; a P-22 in the hip pocket is better than a Glock at home. Tell me I'm wrong and I'll take your word for it but I think even the most concealable .380 on the market is still significantly harder to conceal than some pretty decent .22s.
Okay... You're wrong. ;-)
There are dozens of handguns designed for CCW as small or smaller and as light or lighter than the P22 or other .22 pistols. Kahr, Kel-Tec, Glock, Smith & Wesson, Springfield Armory and dozens of other manufacturers offer firearms in much more effective calibers.
I disagree with your ban on FMJ and other non-frangible ammo. If an assailant wears body armor, some FMJ ammo will take him out. Most will at least knock him down, enabling a better chance at a head or gut shot. Frangible ammo usually will not even knock down a body armor-clad assailant.
It depends on the threat level the body armor is designed for, but most modern vests of level IIIA will stop all conventional FMJ. You'll not pentrate most of it with FMJ, or hollowpoints, or frangibles. FMJ also posed a far greater risk to anyone on the other side of your target, whether the shooter is wearing body armor or not, and the stopping power is pathetic when compared to frangibles on a "clean" hit. See if you can Google up the Strassbourg (sp?) incapacitation tests. FMJ has no business in a high-density environment.
If you'd like to test your "knockdown" theory against frangibles, be my guest, but as the typically offer several hundred FPS more velocity in the trade off for bullet weight, and can typically be brought back on target faster for follow-up shots, I fail to see how they are any less effective. As ever, shot placement counts, and on a clean hit, the frangibles are proven more effective, and on a miss or a mishit, they less dangerous to others as they are going to fragment instead of bouncing around as a solid, lethal mass.
R. Stanton Scott, you don't know jack. Sorry.
In situations like this, the CCW carrier wouldn't go looking for a fight, he'd let the fight come to him. He knows that the shooter will have to come through the door, and he simple needs to be ready to fire once he confirms his target. You don't go looking for a fight, and people who are conscientious enough to carry firearms know this. Thans for providing the "movie" response, as wrong as Hollywood typically is.
Just get over it. Guns at a school or in the workplace have no place. Ain't never going to happen no way no how.
You have the right to have a safe and secure workplace or learning environment. To that end all security personnel should carry firearms and be fully trained in their use.
J, you don't know many police officers or CCW holders, do you? I've got many friends in uniformed PD in two states including SWAT officers, and I know several CCW carriers as well.
Your typical police officer is just familiar enough with his weapon to pass qualifying, and often, many only practice shortly in advance of that. The rest of the year, they often do not practice. Every CCW holder I've personally known goes to the range at
least once a month, and takes the responsibility of carrying
and shooting a weapon far more seriously than do my friends in the PD (with the exception of the SWAT officer, which you would hope would be true).
All the CCW carriers I know have far superior trigger discipline and are better shots than every police officer and sheriff I know in two states. Again, the SWAT officer is the exception. His discipline and accuracy is on par or slightly better than the abilities of the CCW carriers I know.
Quite frankly, you are less likely to be shot by a CCW carrier than a cop, and this is a statistical fact. Police officers are responders, showing up to a situation and having to adapt. Your typical CCW carrier who has to deploy his weapon is usually in the situation from the beginning, and knows who the threat is from the beginning. Who is a greater threat, the person who knows who the threat is, or the person arriving at the situation late?
Guns are used an estimated 2 million times a year in personal defense, most times without a shot ever having to be fired. Personal firearms have saved lives or stopped crimes at work and school when cops have not yet had the time to respond. This is a fact.
The average CCW carrier has a better understanding of the threat situation and better weapons discipline than your average police officer.
You can enjoy your ignorance of the facts and live in denial if you would like, but you are far safer with a CCW carrier around you.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 20, 2007 08:56 AM (9y6qg)
33
I agree with rey. If you have done what the state requires for a concealed carry permit that should be all the restriction that need be applied.
Doc Washboard, in
my post I had assumed that someone in VA neglected to enter this nutjob's "temporary detention order" into the NICS database.
A post by
Mrs Dutoit explained that since the courts use this technique to government fund shrinkage for the suicidal, that to qualify to be put in the database, the box marked "dangerous to others" must be checked off. I don't know where that came from, but it would lead me to think we need to get that procedure changed. From what I've heard the standard divorce lawyer trick of filing for a restraining order will get you in that database immediately.
Posted by: RRRoark at April 20, 2007 09:02 AM (iJo4X)
34
I've been hearing about "background checks" my whole life, but I don't know what they encompass. Could someone please tell me what a firearm background check actually checks? Does it weed out insane people?
It depends.
Federal NICS checks,as I understand them, check for flags such as criminal records, dishonorable discharges from the military, and mental health issues, and perhpas other issues. State background checks vary, but some require all of the above, and require pistol purchasers a higher level of scrutiny, and may ask for non-family character references as well.
It appears that Cho should have been disqualified, but Virginia did not apparently report his mental issues to the Feds.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 20, 2007 09:08 AM (9y6qg)
35
This is an excellent idea.
As part of your January registration, you indicate you are a licensed CHL Holder, you indicate you wish to carry on campus for the year, you pay the fee. The fee coves the cost of instruction plus the rental of the range.
The week before classes start, they hold a class for candidates ( students, employees, professors ) at a range near school. They cover the dos and donts and any other relevant material then test the class. They check out your weapon. You get to meet campus security. They cover procedures on emergencies. Describe any ROEs. When your school ID is issued, they put CHL on it.
You then have the right to carry on campus for the year.
Someone can come up with ROE ( Rules of Engagement ) and train the students on this to help prevent Blue on Blue in a meeting engagement. Since by definition only those in the class know them, this will prevent unlawful shooters from mimicking them. They can also cover evacuation procedures.
Same goes for School Districts. Parents who are CHLs go to a similar class sponsored by the School District.
Or, add a School Carry class to CHL and add another day of instruction that is run by the state.
Better yet:
All ROTC Cadets who are Seniors WILL get a CHL and WILL carry on campus. Make it part of their uniform.
I am not sure about the ammunition requirement. But it may be a good idea. To deal with this, I would have two sets of magazines - with my first round always being the school type, then just do an adminstrative load ( swap mags while in holster) when I entered campus.
Posted by: red river at April 20, 2007 09:29 AM (s6AOg)
36
I learned to shoot a shotgun at age 11, a rifle at the YMCA range, shot at an outdoor range at a summer camp the next year, and attended a high-school with an indoor range. I've been a shooter for 41 of my 52 years, and there hasn't been much of a change with firearms and ammunition. No one I ever knew shot-up a school or workplace, so how can guns be the problem? It was far easier then to buy guns and ammo!
Posted by: Tom TB at April 20, 2007 09:31 AM (2nDll)
37
Does it weed out insane people?
Supposedly yes, if they've been adjudicated mentally ill. Or at least that what the existing gun control laws call for.
Why not examine 27 CFR and educate yourself on this stuff? It might be an eye opener what is already (theoretically) in place.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 20, 2007 09:32 AM (0FEBg)
38
I don't know what "27 CFR" means. Point me in the right direction and I'll look at it.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 20, 2007 10:09 AM (nrafD)
39
Sweet Jesus. As always, the answer is more guns. Don't you find it odd that other industrialized nations are safer with fewer guns? Or that you've voluntarily surrendered your civil liberties to our idiot president rather than the black-helicopter UN one-world government we needed to arm ourselves against?
It's truly amazing that your answer to finding yourself in a hole is to keep digging.
I know, I know. We need to enforce the laws we already have, and give more guns to the good guys. Seems to working really well so far.
Posted by: OMG at April 20, 2007 11:20 AM (bX+hl)
40
Iaintbacchus, you need to do a tad more research on how the term militia is defined in the US Code Section 10. It basically breaks down into two parts, the organized and unorganized militia. The unorganized militia is every able-bodied citizen over the age of 18 who has not been convicted of a felony. PS: able bodied also covers "not in need of a mental hospital." Cho would have been right out.
Posted by: SDN at April 20, 2007 11:26 AM (CNYKS)
41
Good points, except trying to detail what types of magazines and ammunition is allowed. Once again it comes down to whether you trust the person or not, not the equipment.
The point about not allowing firearms in the dorms makes a lot of sense.
I attended college as a recently discharged army sergeant and lived off campus. I've never understood why college students are infantilized. It must be by people who were themselves immature when they were students.
Posted by: Mike S. at April 20, 2007 11:32 AM (tAo4S)
Posted by: RRRoark at April 20, 2007 11:46 AM (iJo4X)
43
Not everyone has the temperament or firearms training to carry a weapon. Most don't. Just because you feel that it would be too dangerous for you to carry a weapon please do not project your inadequacies onto me. I've never been arrested, never been in a fight since puberty and I shoot at least once a month. I've never had a drug or alcohol problem. I shoot as well, if not better, than most law enforcement officers and I try my best to avoid trouble. I live responsibly. Why shouldn't someone like myself be allowed to protect ourselves, and you, if we feel competent in doing so.
Some of us feel that its our families, our communities and our society that we are responsible to protect. We are willing to take on the additional potential liability to do so. The alternative is a "it's not my job" mentality that leads to a lack in citizen ownership of the society. If you're o.k. with that fine, just don't expect me to buy into it.
Posted by: Mike S. at April 20, 2007 11:56 AM (tAo4S)
44
In-dorm firearms could not be secured properly and uniformly, and should not be allowed.
And thus, another kill-zone is created. Why NOT arm the RA's and such? At the very least, with Tasers.
Posted by: Bane at April 20, 2007 12:06 PM (emyIX)
45
CFR = code of federal regulations
Those are pointers to federal fire arms laws.
Posted by: Mike S. at April 20, 2007 12:07 PM (tAo4S)
46
While I like the idea of striking some kind of compromise between the lunacy of "gun-free" zones and the Gunfight at the OK Corral, I do think that this approach has one weak point. By giving the universities the power over who may or may not carryon campus, hey could establish a system that effectively was impossible to qualify under with the intent being to discourage people from carrying while appearing to endorse that right. Any additional qualifications for on-campus carry should be established by the state and apply equally to all colleges. In that way, you can ensure that only those people who are truly qualified are allowed to carry while making sure that no school arbitrarily abridges its students' rights.
Posted by: Steve L. at April 20, 2007 12:23 PM (hpZf2)
47
I think the overriding sentiment of those opposed to more guns is that the problem they're largely addressing is guns already circulating. We need guns because we have guns. As this proposal shows, escalation is the end result, meaning more guns in circulation, and the increased need to arm oneself against them.
The fallacy of the argument is demonstrated by the relative violence of American society compared to that of other industrialized nations.
Now, whether or not it's feasible to remove guns from circulation is certainly open to debate.
But those who support gun control are simply pointing out the obvious. The more guns, the more gun violence. They're not unpatriotic or passive victims. They're simply seeing the situation for what it is.
As I say, gun control might simply be barring the door too late. But it doesn't mean that the motives are erroneous, or that the analysis is faulty.
We are supposed to be the the most free nation, yet we're the only industrialized nation agonizing over this particular problem, leaving us to make statements about protecting our families and others via firearms, a stance more appropriate to Baghdad than the shining beacon on the hill.
Posted by: OMG at April 20, 2007 12:24 PM (bX+hl)
48
In other words, the only reason a proposal like this makes any sense to anyone here is because we allowed guns to get out of control in the first place.
This fundamental truth is something that those who oppose gun control need to face squarely.
Posted by: OMG at April 20, 2007 12:29 PM (bX+hl)
49
Large cities do not lack guns; in fact, many of them are awash in firearms because of the illegal drug trade and street gangs. Gun control is promoted by police and politicians in these cities because they are trying to reduce the number of weapons on the streets. They also use buyback programs and the like to reduce the number of guns.
It's also worth pointing out that according to the FBI's Uniform Crime Victimization survey, the liberal and degenerate Northeast had lower rates of violent crime and property crime in 2005 than the rest of the country. (See http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_03.html)
I don't know if there is a correlation between concealed carry and overall crime because I have not crunched the statistics, though. Anyone care to give it a try?
Posted by: Phranqlin at April 20, 2007 12:37 PM (WLhBy)
50
And let us not forget that it was, by definition, liberals in the first place who framed our political philosophy and took up arms against the crown. And it was those liberal big cities who gave us many of the leading lights of our revolution. And it is liberals today who have most loudly decried the erosion of civil liberties in the name of security occurring today, civil liberties, such as habeus corpus, that our founding fathers were willing to die for.
To say that liberalism equals a persistent vegetative state is to be ignorant of history. It's cute, but it's inaccurate.
Remember, Jesus was a liberal, too.
Posted by: OMG at April 20, 2007 12:37 PM (bX+hl)
51
It's good to see a conservative at least making an attempt at rational discourse. I have long marveled at how other bloggers were able to insist with a straight face that armed students would have been able to stop this shooter by engaging in some sort of Chuck Norris-style shootout, while dismissing the fact that college students would be much more likely to shoot each other in some drunken frat party fight.
But I'm not sure how your restrictions on gun ownership among students are anything but arbitrary. Restricting guns to over-21 students would be about as effective as restricting alcohol to over-21 students has been. If some students have guns, it's just as good as all students having guns. Besides, many schools are 100% residential.
A more reasonable proposal (though one I'm still not sure I'd agree with) is to limit gun ownership to faculty (and perhaps require training). This means there'd be one armed person in every room. Maybe the prof in the first room would have been taken out before being able to do anything, but other faculty on the floor would have heard the gunshots and rushed to their aid.
Posted by: Alex at April 20, 2007 01:26 PM (mntO6)
52
Alex,
I'm sorry but the argument really isn't about arming college students, it is about disarming adults that have gone through the process of obtaining permission to carry a concealed weapon nearly anywhere else, and demanding that they too, must be defenseless despite their efforts.
I went to college in the '60s and while we needed some growing up time also, I think that the colleges today are run by the most narcissistic and libertine of my generation and because of that, the behaviour of the students is worse than ever. Perhaps with the exclusion of the service academies and the state military colleges.
Posted by: RRRoark at April 20, 2007 01:40 PM (iJo4X)
53
Alex,
Speaking as a former college professor, I think I've known more students I would trust with a firearm than professors. I'm sure there are more students with military training.
Some individuals will feel they can be disciplined enough to take on the responsibility of carrying a weapon. While many college students can't many can. Why should you make the decision on who can or cannot accept the responsibility?
Posted by: Mike S. at April 20, 2007 01:43 PM (tAo4S)
54
OMG,
Ever fired a gun? Ever had any training in firing a weapon? Thought not. Fact is you are afraid of them. So be it. There are others that are not. So be it. Individual choice.
And your statement that other industrial nations with less guns have less gun-violence. Welll....Duh... But what about other types of violence? Have your correlated the other weapons that are available and how often they are used? Bet not.
Posted by: Specter at April 20, 2007 03:35 PM (ybfXM)
55
Well, your idea is a little more restrictive than I'd prefer, but we can talk about it like reasonable gentlemen. But what I _really_ want to know is...
...what you got against God's own caliber (.45LC), son? ;-)
Okay, I see you said "comparable cartridge," and I don't know offhand what contortions one would have to go through to carry a Single Action Army (no durn derringers, thanks) concealed, but by gum, .45LC needs to be mentioned specifically. :-D
Posted by: Oldsmoblogger at April 20, 2007 04:12 PM (arEOF)
56
CY, obviously a real man-stopping caliber would be better. Nonetheless, I repeat that a weapon which is actually carried, which is shootable, and which is practiced with, has more valuable than a 1911, an M4, or a .50 BMG left at home.
Yes, you can get (for a pretty price!) a Kahr K9 or a scandium S&W five-shot, and they will fit in a pocket or purse *almost* as well as a .25 Beretta, a baby Browning or a Seecamp .32. Though they inevitably weigh more, esp. with ammo.
However, consider shootability. Not only is the ammo considerably more expensive, leading to less practice (especially with your mandatory Glasers at, what, $1/round?), but the weapon itself is a bucking bronco. Try firing some hot .38 +P+ (or whatever Glasers are loaded to) out of that fourteen-ounce snubby.
Muzzle blast anyone? Noise? Not to mention recoil? How do you think controlled pairs will work with that for a freshman girl or a 120-lb boy who got it for a commencement or going-away present and, with all good intent, has fired with it perhaps a dozen qualifying rounds, or none?
A .22 or a .25 will indeed kill a man. It won't do so in all circumstances, but will in some. It will certainly hurt. If you don't agree, please allow me to shoot you with one. I don't insist upon a head shot - but at ten feet in a classroom, I would feel better about that with a .22 I've shot off a box of Vipers with every weekend on the range, than with a .38 or a nine or a .45 that makes me flinch every time I pull the trigger.
(I like the .45 just fine, thanks, but everyone with a right and an incentive to carry is not like me.)
Obviously the .25 has little to recommend it over a .22 - except centerfire reliability. Bond, of course, was a fictional character. You might as well go with a .32 at least, at that point. However, anything I can hit with will at least help.
In Europe (yeah, yeah) they don't sneeze at the smaller calibers. Even in this country, the .32 used to be the police load till the Drug War kicked up stories about "cocaine-crazed Negroes" who didn't stop when "asked," hence the advent of the .38.
Some people sneer at the .38 or 9mm as with the Philippines experience when they decided on a .45 after the juramentados failed to lay down and die. Some people refuse to die when shot with .45s, for that matter. And body armor is a real threat, whether in the form of a Cho vest stuffed with magazines that will deflect a round, or Russian Kevlar worn by Chechen Beslan types.
Let's take your worst case scenario - Cho is shot with a .22 and does not drop dead right there. Fine, so instead of shooting everybody, he...shoots them twice? At least he may soon drop from blood loss, instead of going on till he runs out of ammunition. Or he may come to his senses.
Also, as a fellow like you knows, most of those 2 million defensive gun uses succeed without the need to fire a shot. The mere menace of the pointed weapon often suffices. Not everybody - killers no less than students - will keep coming in the face of a muzzle of whatever size.
In short...the perfect is the enemy of the good. If you were in the school and some scared kid passed you a .22 or a Raven .25, would you turn it down? I doubt it.
If you want to ban magnum calibers, FMJ, PDW rounds, there is some point to that (though I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for kids to bring 4.7 to class), but a nice .44 Magnum, say a Bulldog loaded with .44 Specials, or a .357 Mag loaded with .38s, is a popular choice.
I agree on no FMJs, personally, but what of a GI with no choice? Or a new weapon that needs a throat job and until then won't feed hollowpoints (or Glasers) reliably? Shot selection is key as always. (And at VT, at least, the walls are concrete and would do a fair job of holding in strays.)
Me? Probably a 1911 in .45 or 10mm Auto (is that OK?), worn in the small of my back (we are sitting at desks after all). IF I decided to have two or three pounds of iron on my belt that day - whereas the .22 would be more automatic (pardon the pun) to always have on hand.
Or one of those lovely Kahrs. But I can hit with a 1911 in .45. If you can't, the hell with you? I say no. Let some 98-pound cheerleader show us what she's got. It might be a nice surprise. If nothing else, it might scare the shooter off or disorient him so some linebacker in the next row can do his thing with bare hands or a desk.
BTW, one of Cho's weapons was a .22. Why bother, in his case? Why not a pair of wundernines?
Posted by: nichevo at April 20, 2007 04:15 PM (Xq6yl)
57
Specter, you're a little off the mark. I grew up in London, England, and Oklahoma. I learned to shoot a .22 when I was a kid, and had a 30.06 on the bedroom wall when I was in high school. I know how to shoot and clean a gun, and have plugged my share of rattlesnakes, water mocassins. Shot a rabid possum in the front yard one night, too. Whoop de doo. I'm not at all scared of guns. Bought my boy a pellet gun this last Christmas, and when he shows me he can be responsible with that, I'll get him a .22.
I've also lived somewhere where guns are rather uncommon.
My basic point of view is that rifles and shotguns have a purpose: Whether it's hunting, taking care of varmints, or whatever.
To me, handguns have one true purpose: Killing people. Now obviously you can target shoot and I'm sure hunt with a handgun. But like an automatic weapon, it's really only intended for one thing by design. Any other argument is disingenuous.
What I'm commenting on more than anything (and the discussion here is rational if a bit surreal) is that fact gun violence happens because we have guns. And guns enable a lot more wackos and chickenshits to kill people than knives, brass knuckles, or 2x4s do.
So, everyone here says the rational thing is to arm oneself in response. I'm saying the more rational position is to take the handguns away. Talking past the problem because there's something holy about all firearms is why we find ourselves here debating how we can arm more citizens instead of how to get rid of the guns.
And it's fine if people admire different weapons, and so forth. Fine if they collect, and whatever. Me, I'm more into military history and aircraft. But to each their own. I don't think liking guns makes a person a nut.
A lot more is at work with Chos of the world than just having access to guns.
But guns are powerful killing tools. And the more you have in circulation, the more they're going to be used. It's that simple. And so, I say fewer is better. It's not a stretch.
Posted by: OMG at April 20, 2007 06:21 PM (bX+hl)
58
OMG, I can adapt any Coast Guard approved flare gun to fire any pistol cartridge ever made. The way to stop the murderering Chos is to arm the good guys, plain and simple.
Posted by: Tom TB at April 20, 2007 07:13 PM (2nDll)
59
27 CFR -
Code of Federal Regulations, Title 27
Of special interest is 479.105 and how the media constantly distort what is and isn't a machine gun and inevitably fail to mention that production of new machine guns was halted in 1986.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 20, 2007 11:01 PM (kr/gV)
60
CY: "R. Stanton Scott, you don't know jack. Sorry."
You know, it's a bit hard to know how to respond to this, because it's really pretty insulting. You seem to believe that because you spent time on a firing range and you can recite a bunch of specifications about guns and magazines you think you know more about how real people react in real crisis situations with firearms than a twenty year combat soldier.
Probably not. At any rate, if you really believe this, you must not have much faith in the Army that trained me. I don't know everything, but my profession is preparing people of college age to deal with these situations. I think I have a clue.
Sure, some armed students would wait for the fight to come to them, but many would not. Many would probably be as off-center as our VT gunman, and would acquire concealed carry permits and handguns in the express hope that something like this would happen, so they could be a hero.
This is a fact of life. Someone--especially young someones--would do something stupid. Without proper training, they would go off half-cocked, and if you think no one would try to be Rambo--that every one of the young students you think should be armed would behave as if they had years of police or military training, you are not really thinking. They would make the situation worse, guaranteed.
I am not a knee-jerk gun control nut. Like OMG, I understand that they have their place. You can't just call me a liberal and say that I have no clue what I am talking about just because I disagree with you. It's pretty silly to think that a few days at a range and a safety class qualifies people to conduct police or military operations. It literally takes years to properly train a police officer or a soldier. Average citizens may be able to defend their homes from intruders with handguns, though I would suggest that this is only possible if the intruder himself is untrained and nervous. But they cannot conduct clearing operations in what amounts to a combat situation without training and coordination of efforts, and they will not have the presence of mind to know that they are incapable of doing so.
Arming these students would simply not stop a gunman like this VT nutjob. I would likely just mean more people would be killed by a bunch of untrained yahoos running through the halls of a classroom building playing Rambo. This does not mean we should ban guns. But it means that the solution is not to arm everyone.
I spent twenty freakin' years slogging through the mud defending you while you were playing he-man by learning a lot about handguns and shooting them on weekends. You think I don't know jack?
I know Jack. We deployed together. And we're both calling BS.
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at April 21, 2007 07:47 AM (qyR+z)
61
please read the second amendment to the US Constitution
Posted by: mark derkin at April 21, 2007 05:55 PM (UgjxF)
62
You mean the part where it says "well regulated?"
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at April 21, 2007 10:47 PM (+dt3a)
63
Way too complicated. Why not just remove the prohibition on concealed carry, but not the prohibition on keeping firearms in dorm rooms? That would handle almost all your requirements, just by virtue of already-existing state and federal laws: nobody who's under 21, nobody who can't pass a background check, and (in most states) nobody who can't pass a course and range test. What's with micro-managing all the fine details--especially when liberalized concealed carry
hasn't turned out to be a problem anywhere it's been instituted?
Posted by: Kirk Parker at April 21, 2007 10:55 PM (95Q6L)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
April 18, 2007
Return Address: Ishmael
On
MSNBC:
NBC News President Steve Capus said the network received the package in Wednesday morning's mail delivery and immediately turned the material over to FBI agents in New York. The FBI is assisting Virginia State Police in the investigation.
The package included a long, "rambling, manifesto-like statement embedded with a series of photographs," Capus said. The material is "hard-to-follow ... disturbing, very disturbing — very angry, profanity-laced," he said.
It does not include any images of the shootings Monday, but it does include "vague references," including “things like 'This didn’t have to happen,'" Capus said in an interview late Wednesday afternoon.
One of the photos.
It shows Cho with the murder weapons, the Glock 19 in his right hand, the Walther P22 in his left.
And in a related article:
Among the materials are 23 QuickTime video files showing Cho talking directly to the camera, Capus said. He does not name anyone specifically, but he talks at length about religion and his hatred of the wealthy.
I'm watching the coverage on NBC Nightly News with Brian Williams as they discuss the case. The return address was "Ishmael," as written on Cho's arm. Cho's comments spoke of himself in the past tense.
I'm not sure what to say about this at this point.
Update: Ace glibly notes, "It really would have been a good idea to lock the campus down after the first shootings, eh?"
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
05:37 PM
| Comments (5)
| Add Comment
Post contains 241 words, total size 2 kb.
1
Well, now we can figure it probably wasn't a bulletproof vest he was wearing. Looks more like the ones I saw in Banana Republic in the late '80s.
Posted by: Jeff at April 18, 2007 06:16 PM (yiMNP)
2
Not that there's any need at this point, but there's ocular confirmation that an extended mag isn't sticking out of that Glock.
Posted by: See-Dubya at April 18, 2007 06:17 PM (xuifx)
3
Look carefully at the return address on that envelope. He wrote A. Ishmael, not Ismail
Posted by: crosspatch at April 18, 2007 09:19 PM (y2kMG)
4
Question: Accdording to Islamic tradition, was Ibrahim asked by god to sacrifice his son like Abraham?
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at April 19, 2007 08:02 AM (oC8nQ)
5
Bohica,
islam's Ibrahim and the Abraham you speak of are one in the same.
Posted by: Greg at April 19, 2007 03:08 PM (S4Q5o)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Despite Dishonest Media Hype, Va. Tech Shooter Used Standard Capacity Magazines In Shooting Spree
Thanks to
Ace and
Allah, I was led to a Washington
Post article that explains that the shooter at Virginia Tech used standard capacity magazines during his rampage:
The Glock was used in two shootings, first in a dormitory and then in Norris Hall more than 2 1/2 hours later, officials said. A surveillance tape, which has now been watched by federal agents, shows Cho buying the Glock, sources said. Both guns are semiautomatic, which means that one round is fired for every finger pull.
Cho reloaded several times, using 15-round magazines for the Glock and 10-round magazines for the Walther, investigators said, adding that he had the cryptic words "Ismale Ax" tattooed on one arm. Although there are many theories, sources said, no one knows what it means.
As I stated yesterday, the magazines used in the Virginia Tech massacre were of standard capacity. Let me take this opportunity to do what the media has failed to do, and explain the difference between standard capacity magazines, magazines manufactured during the crime bill, and extended magazines as the terms relate to pistols.
Standard Capacity Magazines
Standard capacity magazines are those magazines designed by the manufacturer to fit within the magazine well in the butt (handgrip) of a pistol. The capacity varies from pistol to pistol, depending on how the firearm was designed. Most modern 9mm pistols are designed to house between 13-17 cartridges in each magazine without noticeably protruding from the bottom of the pistol.
This is a picture of a Glock 19 with a standard capacity magazine of 15 rounds, as designed by the manufacturer.
"Crime Bill" Magazines
A provision of the 1994 "Crime Bill" was the so-called "assault weapon" ban, and part of the ban placed a limit of ten cartridges on any magazine manufactured after the law took effect (it did not ban the ownership, sale, or purchase of then of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of standard capacity and extended capacity magazines manufactured prior to the law's implementation). Under this law, any magazine with more than ten rounds was declared a "high capacity" magazine, even though the overwhelming majority of these magazines were actually standard-sized magazines as designed by firearms designers. "High capacity" was and is purely a political designation, not a practical one.
Typically, the exact same magazine body were used in pre-ban, ban, and post-ban magazines, with internal block limiting the number of cartridges that could be loaded into magazines produced during the ban period (It was also relatively simple to remove the block from many magazines and return them to their standard capacity with a simple replacement of parts if one wanted to, but with so many pre-ban magazines for sale, few saw the need).
This is a picture of a Glock 19 with a AW-ban capacity magazine of 10 rounds.
Actually, it's the exact same picture, but as the ban and standard magazines still used the same magazine body, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference in the pistol's profile anyway.
Extended Magazines
As they relate to pistols, extended magazines are those magazines that extend perceptibly beyond the butt (handgrip) of the pistol. Extended magazines do not always mean high capacity magazines. Ten-round magazines for 1911-style .45ACP pistols were quite legal to manufacture between 1994-2004, but they still extended quite a bit beyond the pistol's natural butt.
This is a picture of a Glock 18 (the Glock 19's larger, machine pistol cousin) with an extended 33-round magazine that would fit the Glock 19.
Brian Ross of the "Blotter", ABC News, and Keith Olbercavemann were factually wrong is when they stated or implied that the 1994 law in any way restricted the sale, purchase, or ownership of any of the above magazines.
The law simply did not do what they claimed, and tens of thousands--perhaps hundreds thousands of such magazines--were bought and sold via retail purchase in stores, catalogs, and online during the 1994-2004 period. All the 1994 law did was ban the manufacture of magazines greater than ten rounds during that time period, which ultimately was a trivial matter. While the cost of some standard and extended magazines did rise considerably during the ban, they were never in short supply because so many magazines were already on the market.
Others and I have also noted that the size of the magazine also has very little to do with the carnage at Virginia Tech on Monday. It takes most shooters between 1-3 seconds to change an empty magazine for a full magazine, and there was no indication that Cho was rushed, especially as he had a second gun, presumably with a full magazine already loaded, at hand.
There are some forces in the media that are using this tragedy in Blacksburg to try to push a political agenda, and they are will to twist the truth or even lie to you in order to push it.
It's a sad, sick fact, but that is the media we have.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
03:52 PM
| Comments (18)
| Add Comment
Post contains 855 words, total size 6 kb.
1
I gave up keeping records of all the inaccuracies that the MSM reports regarding firearms. Somehow, my guns don't make noise, alter magazine capacity, or kill anyone when I go to sleep.
Posted by: Tom TB at April 18, 2007 05:14 PM (2nDll)
2
Well, something went wrong. Whatever the magazine capacity was, this guy wound up killing a lot of people with a firearm.
The thing that surprises me about the news coverage is the idea that this can be blamed on the fact that this campus was a "no firearm" zone. I didn't know that there was a "fully armed" option when it came to college campuses.
Let's all cast our minds back to college, shall we? I'm willing to bet that every one of us was, to some degree or another, a horse's ass back then. Do we want fully-armed horse's asses on our college campuses? It seems like a bad idea to me.
The idea that more weapons on campus would solve this problem is counterintuitive. This guy was on campus, and he had a weapon, and he killed 33 people.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 18, 2007 05:30 PM (nrafD)
3
"I didn't know that there was a "fully armed" option when it came to college campuses."
Here in Utah it is legal, if it is not a private school. Nobody has been shot at the University of Utah, yet it is legal for people with a concealed carry permit to have one there.
Posted by: BobG at April 18, 2007 05:59 PM (UMWra)
4
As always, nice job keeping the fact straight.
I like the idea of an armed populace, but I agree with Doc on this one. Were people at my university cruising around with guns in their bags? I certainly hope not. When I was working in Afghanistan, we weren't allowed to be anywhere near guns when we were drinking booze. I thought this was a really good idea.
The problem I have with relaxed gun laws is that it assumes everyone is responsible enough [or in a responsible state of mind] to carry one, which is just as naive as assuming a criminal won't violate a gun-free zone.
Posted by: paully at April 18, 2007 06:03 PM (75YCX)
5
The idea that more weapons on campus would solve this problem is counterintuitive
So were the notions that the earth is round and revolves around the sun.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 18, 2007 07:20 PM (0FEBg)
6
I see your point, Avenger, but don't see it as the clinching argument that someone else might.
Of all the guys who we
know had firearms on the VT campus the other day, 100% wound up using those firearms to go on a killing spree.
Yes, the data set is small, but still...
College kids have their heads up their asses. They get angry for no reason. They get too drunk. They make bad decisions that they regret for years to come. I'm speaking from experience here.
The fact that they're not
supposed to carry firearms around with them undoubedly keeps a lot of them from doing so, and if you're not carrying a weapon, you can't use it to kill anyone. Giving wet-behind-the-ears asshats (again: speaking from experience) permission to carry a gun would, it would seem, lead only to more deaths.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 18, 2007 08:30 PM (yfcWb)
7
OK, Doc. I'll take your bait.
What about staff and graduate students? And. . .
How does attendance at an institution of higher learning abrogate the 2nd Amendment?
Posted by: MCPO Airdale at April 18, 2007 09:17 PM (ZKng9)
8
I'd rather that nobody on campus be carrying weapons except sworn peace officers. I know that this definitely goes against the grain of 99.99999% of CY readers, but I'm unrepentant on this point.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 18, 2007 10:16 PM (yfcWb)
9
But Doc,
Passing more laws against guns is counterintuitive also. Picture it this way - A local town here passed an ordinance banning guns in public buildings. This law was passed in response to one of the shootings at a business place in the last few years - can't remember which one. Do you really think that someone who has decided to go into one of those buildings - someone who has decided to commit murder - is going to worry about a town ordinance against taking the gun into the building?
No. The are only two options here. One is to get on with life and accept that there are risks involved. The other is to never, ever leave your home. Of course there will be modifications necessary. The first is to make sure that your home is completely secure - bomb/bullet/radiation/biologic/chemical proof - including doors and windows. Have a Phalanx System and a Patriot battery on the roof in case someone decides to launch a missile at you. Order all your supplies by internet and monitor all deliveries. Never, ever open your door to anybody at any time. All supplies must be scanned with detection equipment to make sure they are safe. Simple, right?
I'd prefer to accept that there are risks.
Posted by: Specter at April 18, 2007 10:27 PM (ybfXM)
10
Doc, if you want to be a victim that's your choice. Guess what? you don't get to make that choice for me. Currently, I don't carry in public. Once I've gone through the training required for a CHL here in TX, and I'm working on that right now, I will be.
Posted by: SDN at April 19, 2007 12:13 AM (TIw0n)
Posted by: Bill Faith at April 19, 2007 03:34 AM (n7SaI)
12
The fact that they're not supposed to carry firearms around with them undoubedly keeps a lot of them from doing so
Why is it that somehow gun control laws are viewed as a magic (yet always unproven, and oft failed) panacea by liberals, but drug control laws aren't?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 19, 2007 05:40 AM (0FEBg)
13
To some extent, I see Doc Washboard's point about the overall level of maturity and sound judgement existing in the mindset of a majority of 17 to 23 year old college students. However, I would suggest that if RA's (that's Resident Advisors) in dorms, graduate students, and instructors above the age of 21 who get the neccessary training and background checks required to obtain a concealed carry permit were allowed carry on campus, the mere possibility of meeting armed resistance may discourage someone like Cho from carrying out mass carnage. The certainty that no one could respond in force enabled the body count to reach 32.
Posted by: SicSemperTyrannus at April 19, 2007 07:46 AM (Mv/2X)
14
Good info. I learned something. I bought a Ruger P89 9mm semi-automatic back in 1998. It came with 10 round capacity magazines. It didn't have a block, but the plastic bottom of the mag was larger, making less room for rounds. There was no way to modify it to make room for 15 rounds. It never really bothered me, but its nice to know that I could get the 15 round mags, if I wanted, for now.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at April 19, 2007 08:06 AM (oC8nQ)
15
Specter, I can't speak for all liberals, but I can try to relate what I posted to what you replied.
It's true that people are going to do drugs, just as people carry weapons, whether or not it's against the law. My point--and I tried to be careful to phrase it this way--was that the deterrent of possible punishment would keep
some folks from carrying, just as I know for a solid fact that drug laws keep
some folks from using. Some's better than none.
I definitely see what you're saying, but my feeling is that we need to get what we can get, even if it's not everything we want.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 19, 2007 08:23 AM (rPCQM)
16
Oops, sorry; that last post was supposed to go to Purple Avenger.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 19, 2007 08:26 AM (rPCQM)
17
"Of all the guys who we know had firearms on the VT campus the other day, 100% wound up using those firearms to go on a killing spree."
Small point, but I thought the campus police were armed (but then, that information came from the MSM so, there you go).
Chicago's Mayer Daley invoked the tragedy to call, yet again, for bans on "assault weapons" and 50 caliber firearms. Daley, the weapons used in that tragedy were neither automatic nor 50 caliber. But thanks for showing us you don't really care about doing anything useful as long as you get to ban more firearms.
Posted by: DoorHold at April 19, 2007 12:19 PM (o/kpn)
18
Funny how everyone just assumes college students aren't old enough to carry weapons yet if they are over 18 they are legally allowed to own them. Somehow these immature people can vote, drive a car (the deadliest weapon in the world), and enter into binding contracts. These same 18 year olds can don a uniform and fight for our country with guns but somehow when they are out of uniform they can't be trusted. What is really the issue here?
For all of you who say that you don't trust me to make the right choice when I carry a gun, welcome to a free society. Yup, that is right, a free society is a dangerous society. Bad things can happen when you give people choice and that is why we have laws to punish them. You are trying to pre-judge people to make yourself "feel" safe. In the end, it is only a rosy feeling you get not real saftey.
You want me to be disarmed because you don't trust me. Maybe you trust me but not "that other guy", whatever that means. HE looks like a punk rocker, maybe his hair is too long, perhaps he drives too fast, whatever the excuse is it is BS. Perhaps the real issue is that you don't trust yourself. You can't see yourself carrying a gun and making the right choices and therefore you try to pigeon hole others into your narrow-minded view of what is right.
Sorry guys, I'm not going to be executed because you are scared of what might happen when a citizen legally carries a firearm. If you really believe what you are saying then you wouldn't drive a car on public streets. You are far more likely to be killed there because of someone's incompetence than by me or the many other Americans who legally carry a weapon. Trust has absolutely nothing to do with restricting my right to self-defense. You want to be executed in a gun-free zone, fine, don't presume to choose how I die.
Bad things can happen when men are presented with freedom. That is the cost we all have to bear. You are willing to trade your freedom for a security blanket that was made by the same guys who made the Emperor's new clothes. Just like at VT, they might have felt safe with their no-gun zone, but in the end they weren't. I'll take the risk and the freedom to live like an honest man any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Posted by: Deavis at April 19, 2007 01:03 PM (GvPR/)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Striking the Balance
SWAT teams wearing body armor and carrying machine guns stormed an administrative building at Virginia Tech
this morning:
Virginia Tech students still on edge after the deadliest shooting in modern U.S. history got another scare Wednesday morning as police in SWAT gear with weapons drawn swarmed Burruss Hall, which houses the president's office.
The threat of suspicious activity turned out to be unfounded, said Virginia State Police spokeswoman Corinne Geller said, and the building was reopened. But students were rattled.
"They were just screaming, 'Get off the sidewalks,'" said Terryn Wingler-Petty, a junior from Wisconsin. "They seemed very confused about what was going on. They were just trying to get people organized."
One officer was seen escorting a crying young woman out of Burruss Hall, telling her, "It's OK. It's OK."
To the best of my knowledge, Cho Seung-Hui killed himself with a bullet to the head on Monday morning after killing 32 innocent people and wounding many more, and he is still dead. Based upon thousands of years of human experience with one notable exception some 2,000 years ago, he is forecast to remain deceased.
So why is Virginia Tech still blanketed with heavily-armed and understandably tense police officers, many of which are dealing themselves with the aftershocks of trauma from the largest mass shooting by an individual in U.S. history, just two days ago?
Part of the reason is to provide the public perception that something is being done and that the tragic massacre of two days ago will not be repeated on this ravaged, grief-stricken campus, a campus already awash in disbelief, shock, and fear. The officers are meant to provide psychological security as much as they are to provide physical security.
But as this morning's frightening false alarm showed, sometimes an overwhelming police presence in the wake of a traumatic event can instead lead to situation that increases or extends fears.
Today, Virginia Tech may very well be the safest college campus in the United States, but the massive display of force by police comes with its own costs.
Heavily-armed and no doubt highly-stressed first responders chasing ghosts and rumors are adding trauma to still fragile students like the young woman noted in the story above.
While a heightened police presence is still warranted to deal with the inevitable false alarms and to help provide a feeling of security, it is two days too late for the need of heavy body armor, and no current reason for police to walk around campus with tactical carbines. The time for such things has passed. On this day and in days forward, badges and "Smokie the Bear" covers should be enough. Enough, but not too much.
There is a balance, an equilibrium, an illusion of normalcy that must be regained for healing to begin.
Hopefully the officials at Virginia Tech will be able to find this equilibrium sooner, rather than later.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:01 AM
| Comments (2)
| Add Comment
Post contains 488 words, total size 3 kb.
1
See also: "horse" "barn door" "instructions for closing."
Posted by: Jeff at April 18, 2007 11:29 AM (yiMNP)
2
It's all about making people "feel safe", rather than actually BE safe. Clearly it went a little off the rails, since armed men in black don't make me feel safe no matter whether they have badges or not.
Posted by: Security Theater at April 18, 2007 11:33 AM (YqhCb)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Giving Dumb a Chance
On the off chance that the ABC News staff of "The Blotter" is just ignorant of their subject matter and not nakedly pursuing a political agenda, I sent the following comment to their
latest blog entry on the Virginia Tech shooting, in efforts to clear up a previous post that was
patently false.
I'm still waiting for a retraction of the completely false story posted to the Blotter, "Lapse of Federal Law Allows Sale of Large Ammo Clips."
Ross and Hughes falsely stated that "High capacity ammo clips became widely available for sale when Congress failed to renew a law that banned assault weapons."
The AW Ban provision of the 1994 Crime Bill in no way restricted the sale, purchase, or ownership of magazines of more than ten rounds during the 1994-2004 period, and only restricted the sale of high-capacity magazines manufactured after this date. Tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of high-capacity magazines were bought and sold during the 1994-2004 time period in retail stores, via catalog sales, or online, and all sales and purchases were completely legal.
Nor were Ross and Hughes correct when they said, "Web sites now advertise overnight UPS delivery of the clips, which carry up to 40 rounds for both semi-automatic rifles, including 9mm pistols, and handguns."
These magazines were always available for legal purchase online (or anywhere else) since the World Wide Web was created. Their false implication that sales only began after 2004 is laughable, and completely false.
The blog entry was not only incorrect, it was deceptive, and showed a basic ignorance of the AW Ban and magazine provisions of the 1994 "Crime Bill."
ABC News and "The Blotter" owe their readership an apology and a retraction for this blatantly incorrect and perhaps purposefully fraudulent blog posting.
The media is allowed to occasionally make mistakes, but responsible journalists admit and correct their mistakes. It only remains to be seen if Brian Ross, The Blotter, and ABC News are responsible journalists.
NOTE: This comment has been cross-posted as part of a blog entry at http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/
I somewhat doubt that Brian Ross and ABC News has the integrity to issue a retraction of their inaccurate and agenda-driven post, but at least I'll be able to show that I made the attempt to have them correct the record.
Update: I fought the dumb, and the dumb won. My comment was deleted by ABC News employees moderating "The Blotter." Obviously, pursuing a political agenda is far more important to ABC News than is actually reporting facts.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:39 AM
| Comments (10)
| Add Comment
Post contains 431 words, total size 3 kb.
1
Looks like you got deleted.
Posted by: Buddy at April 18, 2007 11:00 AM (aGQVo)
2
Well said and pure fact. Of course MSNBC would delete it. Their agenda is not news or facts because liberals own them. Their website and station is a joke. How can people believe the lies they spew? Keep up the good work. Love your blog and articles!
Posted by: Trisha at April 18, 2007 12:45 PM (LFtoQ)
3
CY,
Someone by the name of "blah" re-posted your comment . It's visible now.
Posted by: CTD at April 18, 2007 01:31 PM (RurGt)
4
I went through the comments and I see your comment posted at 2:05pm April 18. If it was deleted it's back now, as of 4:21pm April 18 Eastern time.
Posted by: Rod at April 18, 2007 03:20 PM (ScvHp)
5
Rod, you saw the same comment posted to the other thread. You'll also note others complaining that their comments explaining that Ross was wrong had been deleted as well.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 18, 2007 03:54 PM (9y6qg)
6
Is this something the FCC might be interested in? Maybe we can have their license threatened. Posting lies and deleting comments that exposed them, although on a website instead of the air could be going against the terms of their license.
Posted by: ScottG at April 18, 2007 06:21 PM (WbPvA)
7
If deception were an FCC violation, CBS would be off the air. Good luck, ScottG.
Posted by: w3 at April 18, 2007 07:19 PM (9TtwK)
8
At some point we crazy gut nut mchalliburtonchimpybushitlerrethug...slap,slap...sorry, got off track.
We need to explain to the leftoid idiots that there will never be effective gun control for two reasons. 1. original sin. 2. Machinists.
My dad has little of the first but could make a gun from metal blocks and a few fairly primitive tools. He vas trained as a metalsmith in ze third Reich. He could make an m-16 from the block of a 53 chrysler, some files and a black and decker drill.
Ever see documentaries with Pakistani gunsmiths making ak-47 knockoffs from scratch with a hand forge?
And by 'explain' I meant hit them with bricks until they cry uncle and claim to understand. They will not of course ever really understand.
Posted by: Fred Z at April 18, 2007 09:57 PM (Pg/wX)
9
Confederate Yankee meet Brian Ross. The Blotter blatantly lied about the Mark Foley story and I called them on it. Happy to see you taking them to task for their outright lying.
Posted by: Wild Bill at April 19, 2007 10:36 AM (Mydv6)
10
I hate to break it to you, but anything that was contrary to the point that they were trying to push got deleted. Also, I think that you'll find that ABC News had an agenda going in. On the first night's coverage, they had a piece on high capacity magazines and possessoin of assault rifles which was done by a Mr. Jake Tapper. For those who don't know, Mr. Tapper started his career as an intern and later as an employee of Handgun Control Inc., currently doing business as The Brady Campaign. I posted a complaint with ABC News but as expected, I never recieved a reply from them.
In the end, the gungrabbers aren't interested either in balanced reportage or honest discourse. I did take some comfort however in noting that the pro-gun posts outweighed the antigun posts by roughly four to one.
In a real sense, rather than dealing with the actual problem, which is that police protection in the real world is a fraudulent concept, ABC prefered to help restart the Cold Civil War that we all suffered under from 1988 to 2000. And in any war, including this one, the first casualty will always be the truth.
In the end, I think that in addition to defending the Second Amendment we need to attack far more often, the thinly disguised advocacy which is frequently substituted for the truth, coming from the untruthfully named, Main Stream Media. We aren't going to win this as long as they can lie and not get called on it. The same shock that was delivered when Dan Rather was caught during the Swiftboat Incident needs to be repeated, both early and often.
Posted by: Michael Shirley at April 19, 2007 10:44 AM (DV59A)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
So Simple, Even a Journalist Can Do It
I've roundly
criticized ABC's Brian Ross for his
blatant falsehoods regarding the "assault weapons" ban provision of the 1994 Crime Bill, but it appears that not only has ABC News refused to retract these false claims, it appears that the lie is spreading among other members of the
ignorati.
Enter one of the least, shall we say, "mentally agile" disciples of this profession at MSNBC.
Allahpundit Ian has the video of Olbermann parroting of Ross' falsehoods.
At least one of the weapons used by the shooter is believed, as we said, to be in nine millimeter semi-automatic pistol, which would be like this one, with a clip designed to hold more than 10 shots. Clips like those were banned under the Assault Weapons Law of 1994, but Congress and President Bush allowed that law to expire more than two years ago.
I'll try this once more, making it so easy that even journalists can understand it.
High-capacity magazines were never outlawed. They were never illegal to own, buy or sell, person-to-person, in retail stores, catalogs, or online.
Part of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 was the so-called Federal Assault Weapons Ban, which was a ban on certain cosmetic features found on some firearms. It was, in fact, nothing more than "scary-looking gun" law.
Banned "assault rifles" were easily made legal again by manufacturers who merely had to remove the offensive accessories, such as flash hiders, pistol grip-style stocks, or bayonets lugs, none of which affected the rate of fire, accuracy or velocity of the firearms in question. Older firearms arbitrarily (and inaccurately) deemed assault weapons by the ban that were already in the market were grandfathered in, and the new "post-ban" assault weapons sold quite well during the length of the so-called ban.
Another provision of the ban was a ban on the manufacture of "large capacity ammunition feeding devices," which the law defined, again arbitrarily, as those rifle and pistol magazines that hold in excess of then rounds of ammunition.
Where Ross, ABC New, Olbermann and others are dead wrong is when they attempt to imply that the ban on the manufacture of new magazines of more than ten rounds was a ban on all high-capacity magazines. This is patently false.
There are literally hundreds of thousands, if not millions of firearms in America primarily designed to use magazines of more than ten rounds. Most of these firearms were sold by the manufacturer with at least two magazines, and there was and is a robust industry for magazines for these firearms. By the time the "large capacity ammunition feeding devices" stipulation of the 1994 AW Ban provision was implemented into law, there were literally millions of such magazines in America, and hundreds of thousands more available for retail and commercial sale.
The AW Ban did not make owning nor selling such magazines illegal. As a result, magazines of more than ten rounds were available for uninterrupted sale during the entire ten-year life of the AW ban. It was never illegal to own, sell, or buy such magazines. All the ban actually did was to spur interest in purchasing such magazines, and manufacturers literally had to work overtime to meet anticipated demand prior to the implementation of the law.
As a result of supply and demand, once the "ban" (which it never was in any meaningful way) went into effect, some magazines increased significantly in cost, and some were even in relatively short supply, but they were always available in retail stores, catalogs and online, and they were always legal to own, buy, or sell.
I'm growing increasingly tired of journalists such as Brain Ross, ABC News, and Keith Olbermann spouting falsehoods, when they have obviously been too lazy--or perhaps just to agenda-driven--to simply read the law itself, or even point a web browser in the direction of Google.
These so-called journalists have forfeited their credibility by refusing to address the truth, and instead, decided to foist upon an unsuspecting public, blatant falsehoods to further a political agenda.
We've come to expect our media to be biased. We shouldn't have to deal with them blatantly, recklessly, and repeatedly lying to further their private policy beliefs.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:22 AM
| Comments (6)
| Add Comment
Post contains 716 words, total size 5 kb.
1
I can't believe these guys get away with blatenly lying to further their political agenda. It sickens me. Also I guarantee that most people are too dumb to know the truth so they now have one more reason to hate Bush, because the tragedy in VA was clearly his fault. Insane and ridiculous.
Posted by: Justin at April 18, 2007 08:59 AM (NiTuu)
2
Under the old law, the Glock Cho bought would have been limited w/r/t the number of rounds it could hold. He could not have bought a brand new Glock with a high capacity magazine. So if that's the only point, it may not be fair to call it a lie. Is it imprecise reporting? Yes. A blatant lie? eh. That may go a little too far.
Having said that, even under the old law, there's nothing that would have prohibited Cho from buying 10, 15, 20 or even 50 10-round clips. When he's shooting unarmed people trapped in classrooms, I'm not sure that the body count would have differed at all.
Of course, even if the old law was still in effect, he could have bought a used gun manufactured before the "ban" which is the point you're making. He could have also bought a bunch of the old clips, I guess. Not sure if the old clips fit into the "postban" guns. But I agree that the whole story is silly. Just not sure it's worth it to go ballistic and call them liars. It takes effort to build a lie. I think they're just dumb and not thinking things through.
Posted by: Jimmy Page at April 18, 2007 12:18 PM (5HveT)
3
Jimmy, your comments are incorrect.
Any Glock 19 purchased at any point in history (before, during, or after the ban) would not be limited in the number of bullets it could contain, and as many guns stores typically carry pre-ban spare magazines for Glocks and other popular pistols, he could have purchased the 15-round magazine the pistol was designed to operate with on the spot if it did not already come with them.
The magazine wells on Glocks were never modified to force them to take different (lower capacity)magazines. From the first Glock 19 off the assembly line to ones produced today, they can all use the same magazines.
And it is
magazines, not clips. Clips are narrow strips of sheet metal (typically spring steel) used to load magazines. Clips go into magazines, magazines go into firearms. The two are not the same thing nor are they interchangable, no matter how many times the media screws that up, as well. Each has a distinct purpose.
I'm quite comfortable calling them liars when they are, in fact, spreading complete falsehoods, and manually
deleting comments pointing out these falsehoods and pushing for a retraction.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 18, 2007 12:42 PM (9y6qg)
4
Actually, President Bush cannot be blamed for letting the ban expire. He clearly said, multiple times, that he was going to sign the bill when it made it to his desk. It never got out of Congress.
It's one of the many, many things that he can legitimately be criticized about.
Posted by: Carter at April 18, 2007 01:13 PM (AfORa)
5
The Democrat 5th Column will milk this until some Conservative commentator steps and calls them a liar. At that time they will call for the resignation of the columnist for being uncivil, rather than calling for the ouster of the liars in the MainBlame Media.
Meanwhile, the murderer, Chokes on Wee, will become the poster boy for gun control.
Since he claims "the rich" made him do it, maybe we should ban Hollywood millionaires.
Posted by: TJ's Anti-contrarian Blog at April 18, 2007 06:49 PM (Luhuc)
6
Jimmy, Clips hold. Magazines have springs to present the cartridges for loading.
Posted by: Phillep at April 18, 2007 09:53 PM (+cSvZ)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
April 17, 2007
Iranian Weapons Intercepted On the Way To the Taliban
Well, it looks like the mullacracy is willing to supply just about any insurgency,
doesn't it?
U.S. forces recently intercepted Iranian-made weapons intended for Taliban fighters in Afghanistan, the Pentagon's top general said Tuesday, suggesting wider Iranian war involvement in the region.
It appeared to be the first publicly disclosed instance of Iranian arms entering Afghanistan, although it was not immediately clear whether the weapons came directly from Iran or were shipped through a third party.
Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said that unlike in Iraq, where U.S. officials say they are certain that arms are being supplied to insurgents by Iran's secretive Quds Force, the Iranian link in Afghanistan is murky.
"It is not as clear in Afghanistan which Iranian entity is responsible, but we have intercepted weapons in Afghanistan headed for the Taliban that were made in Iran," Pace told a group of reporters over breakfast.
He said the weapons, including mortars and C-4 plastic explosives, were intercepted in Kandahar province in southern Afghanistan within the past month. He did not describe the quantity of intercepted materials or say whether it was the first time American forces had found Iranian-made arms in that country.
If accurate, this seems to throw cold water on claims that Iran wouldn't support Sunni groups as willingly as they would Shiite militias.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
03:25 PM
| Comments (11)
| Add Comment
Post contains 242 words, total size 2 kb.
1
this seems to throw cold water on claims that Iran wouldn't support Sunni groups as willingly as they would Shiite militias.
It's hard to believe that Iran would support Iraqi Sunnis at least, given that Iraqi Sunni are terrorizing Iraqi Shia.
On another note, we've discussed Fox news vs. other MSM recently. Here's
another study that I just happened upon. Again Fox scores badly in it.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 17, 2007 04:20 PM (/yN81)
2
Bomb, bomb, bomb
bomb, bomb Iran
Bomb Iran
Iran. I bombed. Iran.
Posted by: Ali Blabba at April 17, 2007 05:15 PM (Cy7OH)
3
Lex, on the Fox news poll. At least it said that "there were more Democrats in the least aware group". See most Dems are oblivious to whats really going on. They just care about how major events make them "feel". Don't forget, never let facts get in the way, as long as you feel good. People need to realize that sometimes we have to do things that make us feel like crap. Yes its true some people have to sacrifice their lives, but the democrats wont sacrifice a good feeling.
Posted by: Justin at April 17, 2007 06:58 PM (NiTuu)
4
"It's hard to believe that Iran would support Iraqi Sunnis at least, given that Iraqi Sunni are terrorizing Iraqi Shia."
Exactly. Doesn't pass the smell test. Shiites giving military aid to Sunnis, and the Taliban at that? Extremely dubious.
Posted by: Arbotreeist at April 17, 2007 07:30 PM (N8M1W)
5
Step 1:Â Form fake Muslim insurgent group with stated aim of overthrowing U.S.
Step 2:Â Accept weapons from Iran.
Step 3:Â Redistribute weapons to U.S. military forces.
Step 4:Â Throw massive kegger with money saved on military expenditures.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 17, 2007 07:56 PM (31DQQ)
6
Lex, what about this sentence?
Fox topped only network morning show viewers.
Do you happen to know if there are more people watching FoxNews or the network morning shows?
Posted by: MikeM at April 17, 2007 08:03 PM (myTC8)
7
Justin,
Lex, on the Fox news poll. At least it said that "there were more Democrats in the least aware group". See most Dems are oblivious to whats really going on.
You carefully neglected this part of the quotation: "Democrats and Republicans were about equally represented in the most knowledgeable group," so you were dishonest. Further, you did not address the weak showing of Fox, so effectively you ceded that point. Finally, such broad generalizations are idiotic.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 17, 2007 11:49 PM (/yN81)
8
MikeM:
Do you happen to know if there are more people watching FoxNews or the network morning shows?
No, not a clue. You might try the Nielsen website.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 17, 2007 11:50 PM (/yN81)
9
Bob, are you aware that last week it was reported that
Iran was supplying Sunnis in Iraq with weapons? I see some commenters find it hard to believe that Iran is supplying weapons to Sunnis in Afghanistan. Perhaps you could show them the link from NPR.
Posted by: Will at April 18, 2007 01:19 AM (SMg1M)
10
Will, that NPR page reports on the administration's accusations. That's a world of difference from the NPR asserting that the accusations are true.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 18, 2007 10:16 AM (/yN81)
11
Lex, I think Liberals and conservatives have a different perception of Iran and its dubious intentions. Liberals don't see the true sinister goals of Iran. They think that Iran is only interested in defending themselves and Shiites worldwide, hence they look at the Bush administration's approach to Iran as agressive and as one that is provoking the mullahs. Hence, they also can't believe that Iran is aiding the sunni insurgents. But of course the truth of the matter is the Iranian agenda is alot more sinister than Liberals realize. Conservatives realize that Iran will do anything to make sure Democracy doesn't succeed in Afghanistan, Iraq or anywhere else in the world. The Iranian's wish to spread their brand of Islamic fundamentalism worldwide. And the more powerful and better equipped they become, the more aggressive they'll become in furthering their agenda. As a side point, keep in mind that the sunni Syrian government works with Hezbollah Shiites to further their own agenda. Strange, but true. Without fully understanding the Iranian government's ultimate goals, Liberals will never believe that Iran would aid sunni insurgents. For this same reason Liberals believe it is possible to negotiate with Iran about the situation in Iraq. The way they see it - and they say so themselves - Iran doesn't want to see a destabilized situation in Iran, for that would pose a danger to themselves. Accordingly, they believe it is possible to negotiate with Iran. But the this is an egregious misconception. Iran will do whatever it takes to make sure Democracy doesn't set foot inside Iraq and Afghanistan, whether its arming shiite or sunni insurgents. I think this explains the difference of opinion between conservatives and Liberals regarding Iraq. A time will probably come when all of us realize this fact, but hopefully it won't be too late by then.
Posted by: Will at April 18, 2007 02:05 PM (SMg1M)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Damn Occam, Full Speed Ahead
It is becoming abundantly clear that Brian Ross isn't the only member of ABC News that has the intention of using the Virginia Tech massacre to push an anti-gun political agenda, with extended magazines being mentioned again, even though there has been no corroboration that they played
any factor at all:
It is unknown at this time if his guns had standard or extended clips, which, depending on the weapon, can fire as many as 30 shots before the gun has to be reloaded.
Actually, we do know for a fact that one of the weapons used, a Walther P22 that was his most recent purchase is only available with a ten-round magazine. Extended magazines for this pistol do not exist.
Extended magazines for Glocks (designed with the selective-fire Glock 18 machine pistol in mind, a weapon practically unavailable to American shooters) are capable of being used in Glock 19s do exist, but they are rather rare to encounter, and are typically found only online or through catalog order. They are rarely carried in most gun stores.
The reason is quite simple; Glocks are typically purchased for sport (target) shooting and personal defense by both civilians and police departments. When a Glock is fed an extended 31-round or even less common 33-round magazine, the weight of the extra 16-18 rounds dramatically changes the balance and weight of the pistol to make it butt-heavy, making it a bit more difficult to shoot, and the extra length and weight make it all but impossible to carry in any practical manner.
There is also no indication at all that he purchased his weapons, ammunition and accessories from anywhere other than the Roanoke gun shop where he purchased both pistols roughly a month apart, but as first voiced in Brian Ross' patently false "Blotter" blog entry yesterday and carried forth in this news article, the "deciders" at ABC News seem to have decided that they are going to hammer the extended magazine angle of this story, whether or not such magazines were even used.
"Truthy" used to be the standard for satire-based news shows. God help us now that it is ABC's new apparent standard for news.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
01:13 PM
| Comments (5)
| Add Comment
Post contains 373 words, total size 2 kb.
1
Man I can't believe these nuts are already trying to tear down the second amendment only a week after tearing down the first. The far-left is completely out of control.
Posted by: Justin at April 17, 2007 06:45 PM (NiTuu)
2
I suspect by "extended" these doofs may be referring to pre/post-ban mags with the ten round limit removed. So in other words, the standard 16-round clip is "extended" v. the ten round clip, even though it's exactly the same size.
Posted by: See-dubya at April 17, 2007 06:51 PM (KnvsM)
3
PS It is also unknown at this time whether the shooter used a high-capacity nuclear bazooka firing depleted-uranium pitchforks. Stay tuned to ABC, we'll keep you advised.
Posted by: See-Dubya at April 17, 2007 06:56 PM (KnvsM)
4
Why can't you wingers understand it's OK to lie as long as it's for the common good? We're going to get those big bad loud smelly scary guns off the street one way or another, then next week we're repealing the THIRD Amendment. -- Bryan
I exerpted and linked at Virginia Tech: The Day After
Posted by: Bill Faith at April 17, 2007 08:32 PM (n7SaI)
5
Does NBC use armed guards to defend its facilities and employees? Does Michael Eisner and Disney use armed guards? Do these large corporations use armed bodyguards for their top executives like Rosie O'Donnell does?
Tell you what, you guys disarm yourselves, if you think guns are useless. I'll keep mine in any case.
Posted by: Jabba the Tutt at April 18, 2007 06:18 PM (YSEXV)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Brian Ross' Gun Idiocy Rides Again
I've already
slapped around Ross and ABC News for refusing to retract an
entry on "The Blotter" that was remarkably fact-free, but Ross seems determined to further showcase his ignorance in
yet another post today, attempted to tell us that one of the guns used was a 22
millimeter handgun.
Cho Seung-Hui bought his first gun, a 9 mm handgun, on March 13 and his second weapon, a 22 mm handgun, within the last week, law enforcement officials tell ABCNews.com.
Well, that would certainly explain why the casualty figures were so high. 20, 25 and 30 millimeter cannons are used as armament on helicopters, fighter aircraft and armored vehicles. Of course, no handgun could fire such a massive shell, outside of a Hollywood fantasy.
***
It is also worth noting that the ABC News picture associated with this blog entry is inaccurate as well.
It shows a picture of the Virginia Tech shooter as well as a Walther PPK or PPK/S in .380 ACP; a firearm and cartridge not used in the shooting.
The firearms used were a 9mm Glock 19 and a Walther P22 in .22 caliber.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:42 AM
| Comments (10)
| Add Comment
Post contains 200 words, total size 2 kb.
1
so what's your point, you inbred hillbilly?
Posted by: mike at April 17, 2007 12:55 PM (NeFIG)
2
How about, "Guns don't kill people. Mike's stupidity kills people?"
Posted by: anon. at April 17, 2007 01:02 PM (EB0PF)
3
That the main stream media is more concerned with ratings and ad revenue than reporting stories accurately you pseudo-intellectual yankee.
Cheers!
Trey
Posted by: Trey at April 17, 2007 01:03 PM (CTvMj)
4
"Fake but accurate" - a level we should all attain, eh?
Posted by: Jeff at April 17, 2007 01:05 PM (yiMNP)
5
Hey Mike?
His point might be that with every keystroke Brian Ross makes he tells another falsehood, or misrepresents the information he's given because he's completely ignorant of the topic about which he's bloviating.
Or perhaps the point in CY's post is that given the impimatur of ABC News, Ross looks more like an imbecile than any inbred hillbilly you could name.
CY is (I think) attempting to get you to note that Ross is actually expecting you to believe that a .22 caliber handgun firing a bullet which is 0.22" in diameter, is the same as a 22 mm weapon, which would fire a 22 mm [0.866"] diameter bullet, roughly four times as large.
Largest diameter handgun bullet I know of is a 0.50 caliber. At least, that's the largest I ever fired, at a range, and it damn near broke my wrist from the recoil.
Posted by: Boomer at April 17, 2007 02:56 PM (m6e9t)
6
That was a racist remark Mike. I think we should have you banned from the internet. Quick - someone call Jesse...well...maybe not....
Posted by: Specter at April 17, 2007 03:45 PM (ybfXM)
7
Too bad it wasn't a PPK/s. Dang things are notoriously picky about ammo and misfeeds are common.
Posted by: Dave in Texas at April 17, 2007 04:36 PM (pzen5)
8
I want one of them 22mm guns, oh and a Apache Helicopter.
Posted by: David at April 17, 2007 05:52 PM (e2PMD)
Posted by: Bill Faith at April 17, 2007 08:26 PM (n7SaI)
10
don't you just love how liberals like mike name call. Rather than say anything intelligent or come back with a valid point, they just spew utter ignorance. Brian Ross is really no different. He would rather continue putting out false information to fit his agenda and get new gun laws passed rather than tell the truth. I have already stopped watching the MSM because I cannot stomach it anymore.
Thanks for keeping us informed. Keep it up.
Posted by: carol at April 17, 2007 10:36 PM (g1/X7)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Virginia Tech Shooter, Weapons Identified
Allahpundit has the story on the shooter, who has been identified as Seung Hui Cho (
CNN calls him Cho Seung Hui), a Korean national, a permanent resident of the United States and a Virginia Tech student.
I'm cross-referencing this to Curt at Flopping Aces, who noted in an update a post to a firearms message board, where a gun shop employee claims (site currently down) he sold Cho the firearms used in the shooting:
"Well, I'm screwed. They found a receipt in the gunman's pocket indicating that he bought the gun from me in March. ATF is at my shop right now. See you later, I'm on my way to the shop right now."
[...]"Call BS all you like, but I just spent the last several hours with 3 ATF agents. I saw the shooter's picture. I know his name and home address. I also know that he used a Glock 19 and a Walther P-22. The serial number was ground off the Glock. Why would he do that and still keep the receipt in his pocket from when he bought the gun? ATF told me that they are going to keep this low-key and not report this to the tv news. However, they cautioned that it will leak out eventually, and that I should be ready to deal with CNN, FOX, etc. My 32 camera surveillance system recorded the event 35 days ago. This is a digital system that only keeps the video for 35 days. We got lucky. By the way, the paperwork for Mr. Cho was perfect, thank God."
I'm as disgusted as you probably are with the poster's focus on himself among all the real carnage around him, but that fact remains that he named "Mr. Cho" more than 12 hours before officials, so I think his claim that he sold these firearms to Cho is probably legitimate.
The firearms used in the shooting appear to be a Glock 19 (left, above), a 9mm pistol very popular with police agencies in many countries including the United States, and a Walther P22 (right, above), a .22 caliber pistol that is primarily used as a practice or target pistol. The Glock is typically sold with two standard 15-round factory magazines, a capacity fairly standard among comparable sized 9mm pistols. The P22 is typically sold with a pair of ten-round magazines.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:11 AM
| Comments (7)
| Add Comment
Post contains 402 words, total size 3 kb.
1
I think the argument that needs to be made is that the anti-gun attitude and laws actually made the victims more vulnerable. If but one person had possession of a fire arm they could have stopped the killer.
I was in a similar situation in the early 70's. At that time people carried more than they do now. The fact that the population was armed and willing to use force contained the shooting incident.
So instead on more legislation, we need less.
Posted by: David Caskey at April 17, 2007 09:15 AM (G5i3t)
2
I'm sure you've already seen this, but I thought it interesting how
foreign press responded to the VA Tech shootings -before- it was discovered that the student was from South Korea.
""The ... slaughter forces American society to once again examine itself, its violence, the obsession with guns of part of its population, the troubles of its youth, subjected to the double tyranny of abundance and competition," it wrote."
Irony. A foreign student goes on a shooting spree on a gun free campus.
"The Leftist Il Manifesto newspaper said the shooting was "as American as apple pie.""
Weird, I never saw any apple pie when I was in Korea.
The amount of hits he got with handguns (and his age) tells me that he probably did his 2 years compulsory military service in Korea.
Posted by: paully at April 17, 2007 09:32 AM (gCPlj)
3
ps: Both sources are correct in naming him (Seung Hui Cho vs Cho Seung Hui), as in Korea the family name appears before the given name.
pps: I was equally disgusted by the student(s) who was(were) quoted as saying "I hope no one I know was hurt." I've seen that on a few websites.
Posted by: paully at April 17, 2007 10:01 AM (gCPlj)
4
Paully. I doubt that he would have received extensive handgun training as a conscript. They mentioned that he was a 23 year old senior. That leaves little leeway between graduating high school and going to college.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at April 17, 2007 10:11 AM (oC8nQ)
5
a few things I find odd:
He would take the time to remove the ser numbers, yet not remove the receipt from his wallet from a purchase made in March?
That the crime lab would have been able to locate the gun shop that sold the weapon so fast?
Posted by: weaponeer at April 17, 2007 11:06 AM (75T7G)
6
he was 23 years old, and came to the US in 1992.
an 8 year old conscript???
Posted by: weaponeer at April 17, 2007 11:10 AM (75T7G)
7
It doesnÂ’t surprise me that they may have found the receipt in his jacket.
According to the post, he made the purchase in March. If he’s anything like most of us – and I use this term lightly - he probably simple left the receipt in his pocket. Over the last few days it’s been unseasonable cold in VA, so he probably just got up and put on a warmer jacket which still had a receipt in the pocket from March.
Posted by: Mark at April 17, 2007 01:05 PM (zKa2J)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Does ABC News or Brian Ross Have Any Integrity at All?
A day after posting a
blog entry replete with falsehoods, and despite more than dozens of comments pointing out the factual inaccuracies of the story, Brian Ross and Dana Hughes of the ABC News blog "The Blotter" have yet to issue a retraction.
Does ABC News have an obligation to report facts, or is peddling a political agenda buttressed by lies their preferred stock in trade?
As I noted yesterday, the ABC News blog did not get so much as a single fact in their blog entry correct.
The Ross entry states that high-capacity magazines "became widely available for sale when Congress failed to renew a law that banned assault weapons." This is a patently false statement, containing no truth at all.
High-capacity magazines have been around for more than half a century, and the sale of high-capacity magazines was not impacted whatsoever by the 1994 Crime Bill. These magazines were freely and commercially available, both in retail stores and online, without interruption, for the 10-year life of the ban, the decades preceding it, and afterward.
Ross implies that high-capacity magazines are now for sale on Web sites as a result of the ban expiring. Again, this is a deceptive, inaccurate statement.
The fact of the matter is that high-capacity magazines were always available for purchase (as noted above) both online, and in retail stores, without interruption.
I stated yesterday:
This Blotter entry by Ross and Hughes is a study in bias, wrapped around ignorance, justified by fear.
I'll now add to this that it is now quite possible that Ross' entry is a study in willful media deception as well. The Blotter's own moderated comments section contains dozens of posts warning ABC News that the information contained in the post was incorrect.
Brian Ross and Dana Hughes can't even get their facts right about the 94 AW law nor can ABC fabricate a legit connection between high capacity magazine availability and this crime.
Just the usual liberal bias against gun ownership.
Posted by: sssss | Apr 16, 2007 3:07:54 PM
---
For the record, the federal law that lapsed didn't have any effect on the sale of high-cap magazines. Sales of existing magazines with capacities over ten rounds was entirely legal after the 1994 Act. What was prohibited was the manufacture of new magazines.
Posted by: Jeffersonian | Apr 16, 2007 3:09:34 PM
---
The magazines (not clips) were available during the ban on them, as anything that had been manufactured prior to the ban was grandfathered in. The "ban" banned nothing and was democratic showmanship at it's worse.
You can't ban firearms in the US, they are a constitutionally protected right. Again, the shooter is at fault, not the tool he used.
Posted by: Brian Heck | Apr 16, 2007 3:25:08 PM
---
Lets stick to facts for a side story. This article implies that the person guilty of this used large capacity clips and assault style weapons. all unknown @ this time. As an earlier post stated - lots of small capacity magazines can sould like one large capacity. The Magazine size limit was no clips 10 or over could be manufactured for sale in the US. this didn't stop the existing quantity to be resold.
As to the description of spraying requires large capacity clips. Two handguns with 9 round clips would sound like 18 rounds going off rapidly. If the person was truely Spraying fire into classrooms then Large capacity clips were the least infraction. Automatic weapons as seen in hollywood flicks spraying fire downrange were banned in 1934 for private ownership. either the person had a license for the weapon (unlikely)or modified (in violation of the law) the weapon to fire automaticly.
Again I ask to stick to facts and not jump to conclusions about what may have exasperated the situation to promote a political agenda.
Posted by: glenn | Apr 16, 2007 3:26:18 PM
This is just a sampling of comments left in the moderated comments thread accompanying the Ross blog entry.
Every single one of these comments went past an ABC News employee. This ABC News employee either decided not to investigate the multiple inaccuracies noted by readers, or passed the information on to Ross, who also declined to address the multiple falsehoods contained in his post. In either event, Ross and ABC News have had ample time to correct a blog entry devoid of facts, and they have declined to do so.
This is media malpractice and what many would consider willful deception.
Facts and truth do not apparently matter to ABC News.
Pushing a political agenda is clearly their goal, even if that agenda must be supported by abject falsehoods.
Update: It is also worth noting that one of the weapons used did not have a high-capacity magazine by any definition, and the other is typically used with a standard 15-round non-extended magazine that is moe or less an industry norm for pistols of its size.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:23 AM
| Comments (29)
| Add Comment
Post contains 848 words, total size 5 kb.
1
Holy cow! ABC News caught in a lie? I'm spiralling, spiralling!
Posted by: Dan Collins at April 17, 2007 08:36 AM (Ouds1)
2
ABC still hasn't come clean on its reporting linking the Anthrax terrorist attacks on American soil to Saddam Hussein. Some people still think the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqi citizens. Expect the falsehoods from which myths are made to become the facts. It'll take years of dedicated work sorting out the spin, lies, half-truths, propaganda, etc that spews forth daily from our government, media sources and instant pundits. ... Hang it up.
Posted by: Jethro at April 17, 2007 09:23 AM (LBpxw)
3
The Browning High Power was patented in 1927. It held 14 rounds 80 years ago. It is still being manufactured.
Posted by: Rick at April 17, 2007 09:44 AM (yweiJ)
4
High-capacity magazines have been around for more than half a century, and the sale of high-capacity magazines was not impacted whatsoever by the 1994 Crime Bill.
Not entirely true- they became quite a bit more expensive once they stopped making new ones for the civilian market, by a factor of about 3x.
Posted by: rosignol at April 17, 2007 09:57 AM (ofA/v)
5
guns don't kill people. Only those with student visas who can buy guns and carry them into school buildings...how does a guy, not a citizen, buy a gun in the short time in this country and with at best a student visa (hey, can a terrorist student from Pakistan do this too?)...
The silly posting every once in a while about some guy whos uses his legal gun to stop a theief hardly deals with what is going on in our country. I don't want to ban guns but I do want to see better controls put in place...
Now, if you buy a car, it is registered, insured and checked yearly for you to drive it (license renewaql), but guns???
You can dump on this or that media outlet but there are now some 30 plus kids dead. And you can say that not much really happens at our American schools: only Texas, Columbine, and now here...how many will it take before you note a problem ?
meanwhile, here http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3047369 where guns are owned and carried so all will be safe, we get this in res-ponse and at a college campus!
Posted by: joseph hill at April 17, 2007 10:00 AM (8ETZO)
6
Not entirely true- they became quite a bit more expensive once they stopped making new ones for the civilian market, by a factor of about 3x.
It depends on the magazine. While prices did increase for some magazines (and yes some magazines did triple in cost), others remained virtually unchanged, or even went
down slightly because of the glut of magazines on the market.
During the entire ban you could routinely find 30-round 7.62x39 magazines for $10-$15, and 30-round 5.56/.223 AR-type magazines for $15-$20.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 17, 2007 10:06 AM (9y6qg)
7
It is not true that automatic weapons were banned from private ownership in 1934. That law put a $200 transfer tax on the sale of such weapons. Later, another law limited private ownership to the existing transferable stock of such weapons, and that's where it stands today. Automatic weapons are outlawed for private ownership in some states, as a matter of state law. In states where they are legal, purchase requires an FBI background check with fingerprints and sign-off by local law enforcement. The transfer tax remains at $200.
Posted by: Byron at April 17, 2007 10:09 AM (QDeFg)
8
Re: licensing drivers: how many people die in the US each year in traffic accidents? How many are drunk (despite laws prohibiting drinking and driving)? How many people are hurt because of willfull reckless driving, or by people deliberately attempting to harm others (I've seen this more than 10 times)?
So, let's ban automobiles.
Cars are a lot more dangerous in the hands of young people than guns are...
Posted by: anon at April 17, 2007 10:21 AM (sbsxG)
9
Josh there are rather significant controls in place concerning the purchase of firearms, many states (e.g. NJ and CA) impose elaborate impediments to personal ownership.
I'd also point out that mass shootings are fortunately very very rare. Most have occurred during the contemporary era of gun control.
Lastly car registration and drivers' licensing schemes tend to confirm the futility of regulation. You'll notice that mortalities related to vehicle accidents are almost entirely independent of driver and ownership regulations.
Posted by: Max at April 17, 2007 10:22 AM (7nVHV)
10
I'm in agreement with African American blogger, Villager, who said, "AP reports that the 32 people massacred in this episode is the “deadliest shooting rampage in modern U.S. history”. MSNBC reports that this is the “deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history.” I imagine you can look at the first paragraph in most of the reporting being done in your local area and find the same verbiage being used to describe the carnage in Blacksberg, VA."
I wish that AP, MSNBC and other news outlets would be intellectually accurate and honest. The “deadliest mass shooting” or “deadliest shooting rampage” in our nation’s history occurred on June 1, 1921 in the Greenwood neighborhood of Tulsa, Oklahoma. The Tulsa Race Riot, also known as the 1921 Race Riot, the Tulsa Race War, or the Greenwood Riot, was a large-scale civil disorder. During the 16 hours of rioting, over 800 people were admitted to local hospitals with injuries, an estimated 10,000 were left homeless, 35 city blocks composed of 1,256 residences were destroyed by fire, and $1.8 million (nearly $17 million after adjustment for inflation) in property damage. Our glorious Black Wall Street was destroyed in the carnage of that day.
39 people were officially reported killed, although most experts agree that the actual number of Black citizens killed during the riot to be around 300. You can read about it yourself here, here, or here.
This isnÂ’t an effort to compare horrendous situations. Rather, it is part of the continuing effort in the Electronic Village and elsewhere to ensure that OURstory isnÂ’t ignored or forgotten as others write his-story. National columnist Jim Clingman recently wrote about his experience with eight of the survivors of the Black Wall Street murders.
While we mourn for those murdered this week in Virginia, we ask you not allow the Tulsa Race War murders to be swept under the rug of distorted, revised, and repressed history. We must never forget, and we must not allow others to forget either.
Posted by: African American Opion at April 17, 2007 10:25 AM (jogPC)
11
In response to Mr. Joseph Hill's post: You don't need permission from state or federal government to buy a car, and you don't need a license to operate that car on private property. And, in any event, cars aren't a protected constitutional right. Your analogy falls flat.
Posted by: Basil Duke at April 17, 2007 10:25 AM (EH38Q)
12
Mr. Hill's comment is a study in anti-gun ignorance. Three data points do not a trend make. Let's see, in a nation of 300,000,000 people with an estimated 250,000,000 guns in the hands of 75,000,000 gun owners, a single gunman killed 35+ people at a college that BANNED GUNS ON CAMPUS. So obviously the problem here is gun ownership. Oh those students would be alive today if only there were more pointless feelgood gun laws on the books. The fact that if 1 student in 100 had been armed for self defense, the whole equation would have changed is just swept under the rug.
Mr. Hill mentions Columbine, Texas, and now Virginia Tech and then asks the obvious question...how many will it take before you note a problem? Of course blinded by his bias he presumes the answer is more gun control, he misses the one cogent fact linking all three of these incidents: in each case possession of a firearm was banned on the campus in question. Staff and Faculty were not allowed to have guns for self defense at any one of these sites - only the security staff were. Each instance here is a microcosm of what the consequences of the anti-gunner's utopian fantasy. "Just disarm the sheep" they cry, "and the wolf will have no reason to attack, and if he does, the shepherd will protect us."
It is the willful ignorance and bias of individuals like Mr. Hill that is truly dangerous. Because of people like him, Virginia Tech banned guns, and because of people like him there was no one on campus but local security to protect the students. When they failed the police were called, well now that worked out well didn't it? Guns were banned on campus and by relying on feel good legislation, campus security, and local police to protect the students we now have over 30 people dead. So of course the answer is to do more of the same, only faster and harder. Sadly, in their effort to shield their eyes from the reality of life, people like Mr. Hill are blind to the blood on their own hands.
Posted by: Robert Modean at April 17, 2007 10:44 AM (5nw/O)
13
I read one comment comparing guns to cars, what with registrations, inspections, etc... To my knowledge, driving a car (possessing a drivers licence) is a privelege, not a right. Gun ownership, however, is a CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED RIGHT. Big difference.
Posted by: Mike at April 17, 2007 10:47 AM (nBE5A)
14
Wouldn't the fact the high-capacity magazines were always widely available, even during the assault weapons ban, actually buttress the case in favor of MORE restrictions? I think the falsehood actually hurts the bias that you are alleging.
Posted by: TruthSeeker at April 17, 2007 11:13 AM (8jv8g)
15
Any body see this?
From Allah at Hot Air...
Now the ChiTrib has updated to add: “Cho also died with the words ‘Ismail Ax’ in red ink on the inside of one of his arms.”
Did a little research on the name Hui -doesn't seem to mean much in Korea however in China Hui is a name associated with a large portion of the country's muslims....
Any one have any insight on "Ismail Ax"?
Posted by: Dhimmi Shelter at April 17, 2007 11:55 AM (N/UDU)
16
Guns vs cars.
There is no way those can be compared. Cars are made for transportation. Guns are made for hurting people. And don't say they are made for protection, its an lethal object, which only protective ability is fear.
The problem from the start on, is the fact that gun ownership is protected by the constitution, and hence very hard to get rid of. This "right" have created an abundance of weapons in America, for both law-abiding people and villains. Had there been enforced strict restrictions, registration and such, I do not believe that gun armed robberies would be have these high rate. Robberies with a but higher potential threat to cause injury and fatalities.
Posted by: Aaberg at April 17, 2007 12:00 PM (ls3Ze)
17
Hey, Aaberg - don't you find it interesting that the guns that are "made to hurt people" kill THOUSANDS fewer people than the cars "made for transportation"?
Guess we better ban cars, eh?
Posted by: Tex Lovera at April 17, 2007 12:17 PM (sssqG)
18
A spokesman for Virginia Tech, Larry Hincker, crowed what a victory it was for the Virginia state legislature to defeat a bill which would allow those students and university employees to carry on campus: "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."
(http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/wb/xp-5065
Yeah, that worked out really well, Lar.
Also, here's and interesting comparison based directly on news accounts between the Killeen, Texas Luby's restaurant massacre of 24 people (before conceal carry was legal in Texas) and two weeks later at a Shoney's restaurant where a licensed gun owner severely wounded and killed two thugs who were beginning to herd 20 people into a walk-in freezer. No innocents were killed.
Of course your average liberal, to escape the inescapble conclusion, would claim this is an apples and oranges comparison since one episode took place at a Luby's restaurant and the other one took place at a Shoney's restaurant - different franchises!
The comparison can be found here:
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=1446
Posted by: Hankmeister at April 17, 2007 01:47 PM (1Y1ew)
19
"Does ABC News or Brian Ross Have Any Integrity at All?"
No.
Posted by: thebronze at April 17, 2007 02:50 PM (cqr3P)
20
This all begs the question: If gun control doesn't stop criminals from getting guns, why should a law against concealed firearms stop anyone from carrying a concealed firearm? If it's concealed, who is going to know? If you have to use it, it's self-defense and no jury will convict you.
Posted by: TruthSeeker at April 17, 2007 03:07 PM (ca1kN)
21
Thanks for writing this piece. I mentioned Ross' article in a post today because it went up right in the middle of the massacre, and as I think I rightly pointed out, it was nothing more than using this mass murder to push his own agenda. I also contend that the article itself was pre-written, just waiting for a day such as yesterday to put it up.
And no, ABC, Ross & Co. have no decency, let alone credentials as journalists.
Posted by: Michael Linn Jones at April 17, 2007 03:30 PM (EG68i)
22
"If it's concealed, who is going to know? If you have to use it, it's self-defense and no jury will convict you."
Hogwash. Here in MA they'll convict you - not for shooting the bad guy, but for illegal possession.
The anti-gun types are relying on the fact that pro-gun types are strong on law and order. They'll obey the laws, even the stupid ones. Hence the tactic of piling on more and more gun regulations - criminals will ignore them, but they're not the targets of the regulations. And hence the counter-tactic of insisting that we have enough firearms laws, start enforcing the ones we already have. They were never intended to be enforced - not against real criminals, at least.
Posted by: tom swift at April 17, 2007 03:31 PM (OrcrR)
23
Truthseeker:
"If it's concealed, who is going to know? If you have to use it, it's self-defense and no jury will convict you."
The point is, the people who obtain concealed carry permits are overwhelmingly law abiding citizens. We comply with the law. We follow the rules. And we are no danger to our fellow citizens. We don't want to break the law regardless of whether we are in danger of being caught.
Posted by: colburn at April 17, 2007 04:05 PM (E3YOM)
24
"Hogwash. Here in MA they'll convict you - not for shooting the bad guy, but for illegal possession."
That comment comes from a mind that doesn't understand the difference between doing what's right or doing the right thing.
Posted by: Dave Hein at April 17, 2007 07:42 PM (c8ABA)
Posted by: Bill Faith at April 17, 2007 08:34 PM (n7SaI)
26
Ross is a tick turd. Last night, Primetime ran a piece by Ross on the gun laws of Virginia. Its purpose was to show how easy it is to buy a gun in tha state. The whole thing was a hit piece. He tried as hard as he could to make the gun store owner sound like a criminal. He even started by saying something about how four police had linked four guns sold at the store back to murders. Since he knew that everything was 100% legal, Ross had to manipulate sound bites to paint a different picture. The best effort was a quote from the owner that he had done everything by the book. The way it was inserted into the story, it came across as the dealer being defensive despite not having anything to be defensive about. he At one point, he even said that it took "less time than it takes to get a hairut" to buy a gun.
ABC should be embarassed by Ross' reporting.
Posted by: Steve L. at April 18, 2007 07:15 AM (hpZf2)
27
Mr. Hill:
Apparently the shooter, while not a citizen, was a legal resident and had lived in America for some time. The purchanse that has been traced was completely legal. Further, as others have noted, to use Texas, Columbine and VA Tech as your only data points for analyzing the effects of gun violence is incomplete. For example, why not also include the recent Salt Lack City mall incident. If you do so, you will find two glaring differences between SLC and Columbine/VA Tech: 1. fewer deaths (5 in SLC vs. 17/32), and 2. the presence of a licensed, trained citizen carrying a personal firearm that was able to engage and stop the shooter as soon as possible.
The fantasy of snapping one's fingers and making all guns in America simultaneously vanish into thin air is not just a bad idea but impractical in the extreme. It is impossible to stop a determined actor from killing. The most effective way consistently demonstrated to limit the severity of the event is to reduce the time the killer has, and getting ordnance on target does this every time.
AAO: I doubt many would argue the Tulsa Race Riot or Rosewood incident weren't tragic, but I think the unstated assumption of the "deadiest" moniker is that is the deadliest by an individual or small group (e.g. Columbine) as a single event.
Posted by: submandave at April 18, 2007 11:16 AM (UdYT0)
28
Dear Aaberg:
Several flaws in your liberal viewpoint argument:
1) If strict gun controls had been the norm in our Constitution, then the only difference in our society would be that the criminals (who will never respect the laws of the land) would know that if they had a gun, there would be no one on the streets, or in a private home, capable of defending themselves. Therefore, less fear for the criminals, and likely even higher robbery/other gun violence on their part.
2) The liberal argument when the cars vs. guns issue is brought up, that cars are for transportation, and guns are to hurt and kill, holds no water. In the hands of responsible and law-abiding citizens, the primary purpose for a gun IS self-defense, and to protect one's self and family against predators with no respect for life.
3) A car in the hands of an irresponsible driver is a 3000lb. lethal weapon, capable of far greater death and destruction than a typical handgun. The relationship between a car and a responsible vs. irresponsible driver, is exactly the same as that of a gun in the hands of a responsible vs. irresponsible citizen. Therefore, if you make the argument that guns should be banned or strictly controlled, then you would by default be making that same argument against cars.
I suggest you go by and rethink your logic in your argument before objectively forming an opinion!
Posted by: Dave at April 23, 2007 09:04 AM (sD2KZ)
29
Sorry I missed this dust up. Ross shot his mouth off in UK yesterday, interviewing Scottish anti-gun nuts who can't understand why we won't ban all hand guns like they have. You and your commenters have hit many of the major points.
There is an inverse statistical relationship between gun ownership and violent crime. The more private citizens who own and carry guns, the lower the incidence of murders, voluntary manslaughters, assaults and forceable rapes.
Compare Washington DC, where hand guns are banned to Kennesaw GA where gun ownership is required. One crime rate going up; one crime rate coming down!
99.8% of all firearms and 99.6% of all handguns are never used in a crime.
Since 1991, the US has added 70,000,000 privately owned firearms and right-to-carry states have increased from 17 to 37. There are more guns, more gun owners, more owners carrying, and more people living in areas where people are carrying weapons. What about violent crime? It is down by 35%.
Va Tech is a gun free zone. If someone in Blacksburg had had a weapon and shot Cho when he pulled out his guns, those kids and their profs might be alive today. The administration at Virginia Tech is in some legal trouble for insisting on the campus ban even after an armed fugitive was loose on campus last fall. A fine job the university did protecting its campus.
If I were a college student, I would carry a concealed weapon regardless of the school's policy.
Funerals are more expensive that Glocks.
Posted by: arch at April 24, 2007 04:27 PM (n6Q1C)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
April 16, 2007
The Blotter: Never Let Tragedy or Stupidity Get in the Way of Your Political Agenda
Brian Ross and Dana Hughes prove just how little they know about firearms, laws related to them, and the effects of both with their knee-jerk response to today's Virginia Tech shootings, where they attempt to place the blame not on the shooter, but on
high-capacity magazines:
High capacity ammo clips became widely available for sale when Congress failed to renew a law that banned assault weapons.
Web sites now advertise overnight UPS delivery of the clips, which carry up to 40 rounds for both semi-automatic rifles and handguns.
"High capacity magazines read extreme firepower and gusto. Stock Up!" is the headline of one of many gun shop Web sites.
Virginia law enforcement officials have not identified the weapon used in the shootings today at Virginia Tech, but gun experts say the number of shots fired indicate, at the very least, that the gunman had large quantities of ammunition.
"When you have a weapon that can shoot off 20, 30 rounds very quickly, you're going to have a lot more injuries," said Peter Hamm of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.
"It's not one or two shots at a time when you're putting 20 bullets, spraying them into a classroom or into a dorm room," Hamm said.
This blog entry is so ignorant and factually incorrect on so many levels that ABC News should immediately print a correction or a retraction, and require Ross and Hughes to go to a basic firearms safety class before ever being allowed to write about the subject again.
They state:
High capacity ammo clips became widely available for sale when Congress failed to renew a law that banned assault weapons.
This is absolutely and totally false.
First, "clips," literally thin strips of metal designed to hold cartridges for ease in loading, were never addressed in the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994.
For that matter, the law never banned existing high magazines either, "magazines" being the word that Ross and Hughes needed, but were too technically ignorant to use.
As a matter of practical fact, if Hughes and Ross had bothered to speak with any experts at all, they would have discovered that high-capacity magazines were never in short supply prior to 1994, and the commercial sale of high-capacity magazines was never slowed, much less stopped, during the ten years the ban was in effect from 1994-2004.
The commercial sale of high capacity magazines was legal during the ban, and the supply of pre-existing magazines was so plentiful that prices for many magazines never increased. In some instances, prices actually dropped.
Web sites now advertise overnight UPS delivery of the clips, which carry up to 40 rounds for both semi-automatic rifles and handguns.
Again, Ross and Hughes are lazy and factually incorrect.
Large commercial sporting good stores sold high capacity magazines during the entire life of the ban, because the ban never affected the sale of existing magazines, and there were warehouses full of them. Nor are we limited to 40-round magazines (not clips, which are something else entirely). If you want a 100-round magazine, you can have it shipped the very next day. You always could.
"High capacity magazines read extreme firepower and gusto. Stock Up!" is the headline of one of many gun shop Web sites.
Horrible grammar, perhaps, but at least they know the difference between a magazine and a clip. Online and commercial retail stores, again, have never been affected by the ban in any measurable way, nor have been consumers.
Virginia law enforcement officials have not identified the weapon used in the shootings today at Virginia Tech, but gun experts say the number of shots fired indicate, at the very least, that the gunman had large quantities of ammunition.
There are tens of million of people in this nation with "large quantities of ammunition." Does that mean we're all criminals in the minds of these ABC reporters? Probably.
The fact of the matter is that high-capacity magazines were never difficult to get, and that even standard capacity magazines would have made very little difference in today's tragic shooting. For anyone with even a rudimentary familiarity with their firearm, changing a magazine takes less than three seconds. Those who practice can make a magazine change in less than that. Whether a shooter has two 15-round magazines or three 10-round magazines, the outcome would likely be very much the same.
Once again, Ross and Hughes spray rhetorical blanks, and hit nothing.
But they aren't quite done yet: now they need an expert opinion to provide the illusion of competence and objectivity.
Send in the clown.
"When you have a weapon that can shoot off 20, 30 rounds very quickly, you're going to have a lot more injuries," said Peter Hamm of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.
"It's not one or two shots at a time when you're putting 20 bullets, spraying them into a classroom or into a dorm room," Hamm said.
I sholdn't have to point out the fact that their "expert" is from the anti-gun Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, a viciously anti-gun group, who is as light on the facts and as high on rhetoric as is Ross and Hughes. Note how Hamm purposefully uses the word "spray" to create an image of machine gun fire, even though machine guns are strictly regulated, and no one is even suggesting one was used in Blacksburg. IÂ’d also note the obvious and undisputed fact that a weapon with a high-capacity magazine does not fire any faster than one with a regular magazine.
This Blotter entry by Ross and Hughes is a study in bias, wrapped around ignorance, justified by fear.
I don't think that is how ABC News should run their newsroom, but then, that is their decision to make.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
03:23 PM
| Comments (16)
| Add Comment
Post contains 996 words, total size 6 kb.
1
It's amazing how little people know about firearms.
I know a lot of crime writers who know almost nothing about the firearms they write about. Of course, that doesn't include the ones who are cops or ex-military.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 16, 2007 03:59 PM (kxecL)
2
They've got a script and they're sticking to it
The liberals, like Ross, who are in control of the MSM will do somersaults to blame anyone but the person responsible for such a horrible massacre
No different from their reporting of the daily massacres of similar nature that occur in Iraq.
SEen from the prism of politics, these horrific acts are blamed on the "occupation", just as this killers hateful acts will be blamed on the gun lobby.
Sometimes, people are just evil, and they commit evil acts.
Posted by: TMF at April 16, 2007 04:29 PM (cGtRE)
3
I don't know if ABC delays comments on the Blotter, but they are modded with a heavy hand. It seems they're no longer taking comments on the clips article.
Posted by: mark l. at April 16, 2007 04:30 PM (e82bf)
Posted by: anon at April 16, 2007 06:56 PM (2Ntgd)
5
Why is it the Left always blames the tool rather than the responsible individual? All those dead students might be alive today if the college hadn't made them sitting ducks by making the campus a gun free zone. In Britain gun related crime has exploded despite disarming the law abidding with predictable results.
Posted by: Thomas Jackson at April 16, 2007 11:44 PM (YXXuO)
6
Great Post. I was going to write a very similar post myself because I noticed the exact same thing, but you said it perfectly, so I'll just link to you.
I was watching TV tonight and the reporter kept calling the sale of firearms a "loophole", and it wasn't an editorial. Just regular news.
Posted by: brando at April 17, 2007 12:56 AM (uZ35s)
7
I tried to leave a comment several hours ago pointing out some of their technical errors but they apparently only post attaboy comments. I excerpted and linked your post at Virginia Tech: The Day After
Posted by: Bill Faith at April 17, 2007 04:11 AM (n7SaI)
8
Ban all guns!!! Then ban Knives, boxcutters, screwdrivers, sticks, rocks, bows, arrows, spears, Paper (paper cuts), automobiles, dogs, cats, UFO's (they do illegal operations ya know), glass, hard plastic, nails, nail guns, staple guns, well... anything with GUN in it,
Then we can wrap pillows around all the semi-sharp edges and block out 237 of our 240 channels and sit around the fire (virtual of course) singing camp songs.
OR........
Hold the crooks and idiots responsible for their actions.
Posted by: Retired Navy at April 17, 2007 05:11 AM (0EcTE)
9
Addressing only the "clip" vs. "magazine" issue here.
I'm a member of the technically illiterate masses. I've heard both terms over the years. It seems to me that they have always been used interchangeably, "clip" being the slightly hipper form.
Isn't it possible that the authors knew what part of the weapon they were talking about, but used a word that, while technically inaccurate, had become common usage among those who are not gun enthusiasts?
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 17, 2007 08:20 AM (beaHJ)
10
Navy:
While I certainly agree with you that we must hold the crooks and idiots responsible for their actions in regard to gun deaths, there is a certain amount of "closing the barn door after the horse has escaped" to that approach.
I can't speak for everyone who favors gun control, but I think that the big idea there is that it would be better to get the weapon out of the hand of the crook and the idiot
before the killing happens, rather than be satisfied with punishing the wrongdoer after someone has already been killed.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 17, 2007 08:27 AM (beaHJ)
11
Doc,
I hear ya. I kow a lot of people who have a great deal of expertise in firearms. One is Fred Rea of Florida. He's the absolute best. Another friend, former DEA agent and current hardcore cop, goes to Fred for the finer points of firearms and if it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me.
I also own an M1, the classic clip-fed weapon (clang) and a GI .45, a classic magazine-fed handgun. I know the difference between the two but you're right, clip has been used so often by so many that they've become synonymous. It's like calling my .45 an automatic when, to be accurate, it's a semi-automatic.
We pedants will continue to correct people and there's not much anyone can do about that. My excuse is I'm old and not about to change.
But the larger issue here, even though I was the first to post on this thread, is that we've stepped away from the real tragedy of this shooting to focus on nomenclature and picking another partisan fight.
I for one want to step back, take a deep breath, and let the human side of this human tragedy sink in and, at least for a day, not argue petty points of difference.
That's just me, but I thought it needed to be said.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 17, 2007 08:39 AM (kxecL)
Posted by: David M at April 17, 2007 09:34 AM (kNjJk)
13
What bothered me most yesterday -- besides the obvious lack of preparation for crisis management by the overpaid VPI administration, is that no one is talking about the defeat in the state General Assembly in August 2006 of a bill which would have permitted adult students and professors to do what is permitted in the rest of the Old Dominion: to lawfully carry concealed, registered weapons.
If one professor or one grad student had been armed there would have been a lot less carnage.
Read a grad student's op ed piece at Gates of Vienna. I precede his essay with a snarky response to it by the Roanoke Times -- it was more effective to run them "backwards" after the fact. His supercilious attitude stands out better that way.
I wonder if the Roanoke Times will run a second piece by the grad student *now*...
Here's the beginning of his essay from 2006:
"On Aug. 21 at about 9:20 a.m., my graduate-level class was evacuated from the Squires Student Center. We were interrupted in class and not informed of anything other than the following words: “You need to get out of the building.”
Upon exiting the classroom, we were met at the doors leading outside by two armor-clad policemen with fully automatic weapons, plus their side arms. Once outside, there were several more officers with either fully automatic rifles and pump shotguns, and policemen running down the street, pistols drawn.
It was at this time that I realized that I had no viable means of protecting myself.
Please realize that I am licensed to carry a concealed handgun in the commonwealth of Virginia, and do so on a regular basis. However, because I am a Virginia Tech student, I am prohibited from carrying at school..."
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2007/04/ringing-down-days-va-tech-students.html
Posted by: dymphna at April 17, 2007 09:59 AM (UbHn6)
14
oops-- my reference isn't clear...my bad, didn't hit "review" button.
By "his" snarky attitude, I meant the guy at the Roanoke Times, not the student.
Like UVa, Roanoke is a Blue Blob in a red state.
Posted by: dymphna at April 17, 2007 10:03 AM (UbHn6)
15
Hi,
Great blog!
I like the office view!
If you have time, please submit the view to my new blog: www.viewfromoffice.com and in return IÂ’ll include a link to your blog!
Thanks!
Posted by: piyawan at April 18, 2007 02:54 AM (0+V6E)
16
Regarding high capacity magazines not being banned:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c103:1:./temp/~c103BbFdci:e650830:
Posted by: mark at April 18, 2007 07:47 AM (1eh9z)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
327kb generated in CPU 0.0575, elapsed 0.1476 seconds.
72 queries taking 0.1089 seconds, 479 records returned.
Powered by Minx 1.1.6c-pink.