September 17, 2007
Violating Her Sybil Rights?
The words "honesty" and "Hollywood" don't belong in the same sentence for a very good reason. Sally Field, bungling her Emmy acceptance speech and being played off-stage as she went over her allotted time, had her closing comment cut off when she utter "g-d d-mn" on tape-delayed "live" television.
Normally, this would be hardly worth mentioning, as profanity is routinely edited out on these kinds of shows (as it was on at least two other occasions last night) and babbling stars are often played off the stage (as also occurred last night) as they prattle on past their allotted time.
Field, professional that she is, timed a mild anti-war comment to come out prefaced by profanity as she was being played off the stage. According to a quite dishonest L.A. Times Tom O'Neil:
Producers of Sunday's Emmy telecast bleeped best drama actress winner Sally Field in the midst of a controversial acceptance speech attacking U.S. involvement in Iraq.
"If mothers ruled the world, there wouldn't be any god -" she said when the sound went dead and the camera suddenly turned away from the stage so viewers would be distracted. Chopped off were the words "god-damned wars in the first place."
Filed was not "in the midst" as O'Neil reported, but already over her allotted time as the music came up and she was being played off the stage. Likewise, as Don Surber notes, she was far from being the only celebrity to have their profanity edited out of the show.
Predictably, blogs in the community-based reality such as Think Progress and the aptly-named Crooks and Liars are quick to make the unsupported accusation that this was the result of "censorship" by Fox , and left out the pertinent details that Field was using profanity and already over time when she made her rote comment.
Obviously, these troubling facts aren't relevant to the story they would prefer to tell.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:21 AM
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...but of course, if MSNBC and C-NBC
refuse to run a pro-Iraq-victory ad, that's just fine with the lefties.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: to a lefty, everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others. Orwell would be so proud.
(Hey, CY... how come the comment filter doesn't like C and N right next to each other?)
Posted by: C-C-G at September 17, 2007 09:06 AM (lo4eE)
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Hmmmm.
People watch that show?
Posted by: memomachine at September 17, 2007 10:33 AM (3pvQO)
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I typed in a comment that the guy was a "goddamn moron," and he hasn't posted it.
Posted by: Dan Collins at September 17, 2007 10:54 AM (1moHq)
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Facts have never meant much to liberals
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at September 17, 2007 11:14 AM (Lgw9b)
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Bono used profanity not too long ago at the Golden Globes and the act was not censored or fined. But, you're right: Fox would be worried more about a dirty word than an anti-war comment. That makes sense.
Do you watch much television?
Romano's slip earlier in the evening - now THAT I could buy was due to the profanity.
Posted by: dgbellak at September 17, 2007 04:52 PM (cWhAD)
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Since what constitutes "facts" seems to be up for debate here, why don't you read someone who has
done their research.
Posted by: dgbellak at September 17, 2007 06:56 PM (cWhAD)
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He's the guy who wouldn't post my comment calling him a "goddamn moron."
Posted by: Dan Collins at September 17, 2007 07:01 PM (JSYrn)
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Difficult to imagine why. It adds so much to the debate.
Posted by: dgbellak at September 17, 2007 07:04 PM (cWhAD)
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Exactly.
CENSORSHIP!!!!
Posted by: Dan Collins at September 17, 2007 07:26 PM (JSYrn)
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The several second delay is intended to allow time to censor the expletive. What is less common is that in this case the
[bleep] network censored the words that came after the expletive too.
Posted by: buma at September 18, 2007 01:40 AM (H4Y9t)
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buma, you do understand when someone hits the dump button it takes a few seconds to reset, right? That anything said in those few seconds is also cut?
Posted by: buzz at September 18, 2007 09:34 PM (rQuaK)
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September 14, 2007
Weather Woes
Well,
thanks to this I might continue my fund-raising efforts for a few more days.
I haven't been outside to check the damage to any great degree yet, but know that the straight-line winds in my area were strong enough to damage homes under construction within view of my house, down trees, and lift my rather substantial grill into the air and toss it into my neighbor's yard. I'll retrieve it tomorrow, but my guess is that it's toast.
If anyone hasn't donated yet and could, I'd appreciate it.
I really liked that grill.
Update: Picture added above. For us, that's all we lost, and for that I'm very thankful.
Talking to folks in the area and surveying the damage, it appears out area took a hit from a very minor tornado (there were a total of six in the area, all blessedly weak). Not a lot of damage in my neighborhood, but there was in the older neighborhood nearby where there were far more mature trees, a lot of which lost branches, and several large oaks that were totally ripped apart.
Nobody got seriously injured or killed, and that is what really matters.
The "Liberal Braintrust" Update: It seems that several lefty bloggers have seized upon this post as proof of great hypocrisy on my part, as I've stated publicly on several occasions that New Orleans should not be rebuilt in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.
The reasoning behind not rebuilding New Orleans is scientifically-driven and practical in nature. The Mississippi delta silt upon which the city was built is rapidly compacting, and hence the city itself is literally and inevitably sinking. This is combined with the fact that the marshlands protecting the city are eroding at a rate of 25-35 square miles/year, and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, along with noted scientists from coastal and marine studies programs including LSU, have stated the geological inevitability of the city merging with the Gulf of Mexico prior to 2100, and quite possibly by 2050 or sooner with the landfall of any major hurricanes (which Katrina was not when it hit; New Orleans suffered category 1-2 winds), or a sudden rise in sea level, which could occur if global warming is as dramatic as some expect.
Simply put, New Orleans is a sinking hole in a swamp surrounded on three sides by hungry waters: rebuilding the city with an anemic patchwork of small levee improvements is a colossal exercise in stupidity, when relocating the population is a much more intelligent and more viable long-term option. It may also ultimately lead to a far greater loss of life the next time the city is inundated.
Liberal Logic: New Orleans = Bobs' Grill.
Somehow, this bit of scientifically-supported common sense means I'm a hypocrite because I extended my already running week-long yearly fundraising effort, mentioning specifically late Friday that that I'm going to need to replace my storm-tossed grill.
Said grill was up-ended and tossed into my neighbor's yard by what appears to be a very small tornado that spun out of a line of thunderstorms that developed quickly as a line of storms passed through Friday evening. The line of storms was the leftovers of what was Humberto, the storm that hit minimal hurricane status before it made landfall on Texas last week and quickly dissipated.
According to these esteemed liberal thinkers, asking my readership to continue a voluntary fundraiser is the exact same thing, somehow, as demanding billions of taxpayer dollars from the federal government to replace a city doomed by geology, oceanography, and hydrology.
Perhaps if I lobbied taxpayers for the funds that argument would have some merit, but I'm not applying for a grant, or demanding that taxpayers fund anything. I didnÂ’t do that. I extended a pre-existing weeklong fundraiser where I asked for voluntary donations from my readers. My "crime" was continuing a voluntary fundraiser for a specific reason?
Heaven forbid. How do I live with myself.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:49 PM
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CY, are you around Asheville? I'm in Monroe and we had something similar a few weeks back. I don't think anyone has been able to determine exactly what knocked down 23 electric polls starting at
my place. It was either a tornado, lightening, or what most believe a microburst.
Do you have any information about a town up there called Sylva? I have an old friend who lives up there. Well, more like an ex who still hates me but I hope she's ok.
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at September 15, 2007 03:14 PM (Lgw9b)
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Sorry CI, I'm near Raleigh...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 15, 2007 09:21 PM (HcgFD)
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Sorry about your grill. I live in a coastal area up north and we get funky little gale storms all the time when things start to go flying.
But I have to say that seeing the photo documenting the tidy little disaster of your grill made me laugh out loud.
You see, I had just clicked over after having read some god awful report on the godawfulness that is Iraq's infrastructure (you know: very little electricity, a shortage of potable water, an outbreak of cholera, food distribution problems, and the like), and I thought, How typically American. A toppled-over grill is a calamity.
Just shows how fortunate we are.
Posted by: Grace Nearing at September 16, 2007 03:21 AM (DMnkh)
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"I really liked that grill."
I bet you say that to all the grills.
Posted by: Bill Smith at September 16, 2007 05:28 AM (4FExI)
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That was some wild weather Friday. I was watching a tornado try and form near the Triangle Town Center mall. Fortunately, just didn't have the energy at that time.
Sorry about the grill, CF.
Posted by: William Teach at September 16, 2007 08:29 AM (NaHh8)
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I want a grill just like the grill that harried the neighbors' yard.
Posted by: Sissy Willis at September 16, 2007 03:05 PM (Q6JEL)
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Also, if you didn't mourn the loss of your grill, the terrorists would have won.
Posted by: Sissy Willis at September 16, 2007 03:17 PM (Q6JEL)
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Looks like an original "Charbroil". Can't get those anymore.
I still have the grates if that is all it takes--I've been meaning to try and build a replacement for mine, but I probably won't get it done in this lifetime.
Posted by: Larry Sheldon at September 16, 2007 06:23 PM (QwUYy)
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It's actually a version of
this Royal Oak. I like cooking with charcoal more than gas, but they don't make them heavy enough to stay on the ground around here, apparently.
Kinda scary something about a hundred pounds like that can get airborne.
Grace, what you say is so true.
Bill, Sissy...get help.
;-)
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 16, 2007 07:02 PM (HcgFD)
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Why should we help you replace the grill if you're going to keep on living in a hurricane area? You're living on 'sand' like the foolish man and it will just be washed away again.
Posted by: Michael at September 17, 2007 09:11 AM (c900z)
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Show some initiative, man.
Just use your burning cross the next time you want to grill some weenies.
Posted by: Luke Duke at September 17, 2007 10:40 AM (6Nz4N)
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If I remember correctly didn't say that we shouldn't pay to rebuild NO? But now we should all chip in for your crappy grill?
I think this is just a warning shot from God - you had better get your life right with Him or it will only get worse from here.
Posted by: frankly at September 17, 2007 10:55 AM (rjqvO)
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Michael, you're obviously not bright enough to get this, but living over 130 miles from the ocean. I'm not what would typically be considered any more of a "hurricane area" than is San Antonio, Texas.
Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised, however.
You did come from a blog that thinks that there is some sort of equivalence to be made from me asking my readers to donate private funds if they so desire because they like my blog, and the demand to use public tax dollars to rebuild New Orleans.
It is rather pathetic how far they'll go to set up a false moral equivalence, but it is even more pathetic that their readers allow themselves to be so easily fooled.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 17, 2007 11:01 AM (EPsu8)
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Well, I'm sure you donated plenty of money to America's Second Harvest or some other charitable organization when Katrina blew through.
Posted by: Run Up The Score at September 17, 2007 11:27 AM (P8MNB)
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You tell 'em, CY!
You are *so* right: there's no equivalence between asking the Public to fork out their hard-earned cash to save a city and asking the public to fork out their hard earned cash to save a grill.
Quite apart from the fact that one involves a capital "P" and the other doesn't, a grill is like waaay more important.
Posted by: Andrew at September 17, 2007 11:35 AM (R09+d)
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CY: What are those round, circular doohickeys attached to each leg of the barbecue? Hint: they aren't meat tenderizers.
Maybe, just maybe, you might want to move stuff you don't want to lose into the house or garage when a hurricane blows through.
Posted by: Bob's Trick Knee at September 17, 2007 12:22 PM (y67bA)
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Well, I'm sure you donated plenty of money to America's Second Harvest or some other charitable organization when Katrina blew through.
Well, our church took in a few refugees when they came to Raleigh and we contributed to helping htem get clothing and housing, and our church also sent down teams to help rebuild (which is where I got many of the Katrina damage photos used ont his blog). I couldn't go because of work commitments, but I did help collect food, clothing, and money for survivors in the aptly-named Waveland, Missisippi, which was hit directly by the storm surge. We "adopted" a retired couple that had moved there only months befor the stormm and got them some basics as they waited for their home to be rebuilt. We prayed for them, and continue to send letters back and forth with them, providing the psychologicla support that is every bit as important as money, with "Tom" becoming my daughter's pen pal.
I'm also very much involved with Beauchamp Tower Corporation, a not-for-profit that is attempting to get the federal government to turn over some "moth-balled" ships slated for the scrapyard, which will be retrofitted by civilian and corporate donors to provide major disaster emergency response. I communicate directly with BTC CEO Ward Brewer, though that isn't anything I've talked about much on my blog lately. What we're talking about is something I've dubbed the "Savaltion Navy," and what may become the greatest part of our nation's mass disaster response planning.
That said, what have you done, Run?
And other knee, there was no hurricane here, just a line of thunderstorms which spun off tornadoes. Not that you come here from a blog smart enough to know the difference between hurricanes and tornadoes.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 17, 2007 12:32 PM (WwtVa)
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BTW, the BTC OES effort is just so much vapor.
The idea suffers from several fatal flaws: 1.) the ships are generally unsuitable for relief operations unless massively retrofitted; 2.) BTC hasn't anywhere near the monies needed to accomplish the repairs and mods; 3.)many of the ships require significant environmental remediation--another cost BTC can't fund.
Posted by: Bob's Trick Knee at September 17, 2007 01:29 PM (cqZXM)
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It depends on the ships being targeted, BTK, and there are specific candidates in mind.
You are not in a position to determine how much the remediation will cost, or for that matter, know the assets, commitments, or capabilities at BTC's disposal.
Like so much you spew, you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 17, 2007 01:36 PM (WwtVa)
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It seems to me that you lost your grill due to your own carelessness. If we come in and purchase you a new grill, you will have no incentive to properly take care of that one either. Pretty soon, you'll be leaving your grill out in all manner of nasty weather, and we'll be buying you a new one each week. It'd be grill-welfare.
Incidentally, I live in Durham and went through pretty much the same storm. As it started, I went outside and moved my grill in the garage, like any reasonable Conservative would do. You should learn to do the same. Perhaps the financial burden of having to replace it yourself will teach you that lesson, and maybe a bit of self-reliance as well.
Posted by: Conservative Scholar at September 17, 2007 01:36 PM (l8GOp)
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Michael, you're obviously not bright enough to get this, but living over 130 miles from the ocean. I'm not what would typically be considered any more of a "hurricane area" than is San Antonio, Texas.
You were obviously not around for Hurricane Fran.
Posted by: barry at September 17, 2007 02:03 PM (2Sabn)
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Setting the Agenda for a Non-Scandal
Advertising Age dissects how my observation
earlier this week helped shape
this week's news:
MoveOn told ABC's Jake Tapper that the group paid $65,000 for a Sept. 10 ad accusing General David Petraeus of "cooking the books for the White House" in his status reports on Iraq. The Times rate card implies that weekday, full-page, black-and-white cause, appeal or political ads cost $181,692.
A post on the blog Confederate Yankee soon noted the disparity. "While I'm fairly certain that nobody pays 'sticker' prices, 61% off seems a rather sweet deal," his post said. The New York Post picked up the story yesterday, running a piece headlined "Times Gives Lefties a Hefty Discount for 'Betray Us' Ad" and followed up with another article and an editorial today. "Citing the shared liberal bias of the group and the Times," the Post wrote, "one Republican aide on Capitol Hill speculated that it was the 'family discount.'"
Mr. Giuliani, speaking in Atlanta yesterday, demanded that the Times apologize and offer him the same price.
Standby basis
But MoveOn bought its ad on a "standby" basis, under which it can ask for a day and placement in the paper but doesn't get any guarantees. Standby pricing doesn't appear on the Times rate card -- but that kind of ad at a standby rate turns out to run about $65,000.
In other words, all the attention came as a result of the New York Times not putting their standby pricing on their rate cards, and the majority of the angry pixels expended in this incident were more than likely "much ado about nothing."
An interesting take on the eventual non-event from Dan Riehl:
I won't pretend that Print isn't significant when it comes to the news game today, that would be foolish. But I would add an additional point, or two. Being the topic of the news agenda is a far different thing than setting said agenda. And if it weren't for New Media, particularly blogs in this case, this particular agenda item would likely have never even been set. Duh!
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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That was great work.
Congrats.
Posted by: Jim Hoft at September 15, 2007 12:26 AM (Rxv1x)
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The standby rate is irrelevant since the NY Times has knowingly refused to print some right wing advocacy ads. Pro Life etc.
Posted by: Dennis D at September 15, 2007 06:44 AM (y9UWN)
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Uncle Jimbo pointed out the bull$hit behind the "Standby" defense, as well as pointing out the probable violation of Federal law in discounting an "advocacy" ad here:
http://www.blackfive.net/main/2007/09/ny-times--stand.html
i'd say you were dead on to begin with, and all the whining here suports that contention. %-)
redc1c4,
Advertising Age is just running a smoke screen.
Posted by: redc1c4 at September 15, 2007 02:04 PM (xPGdz)
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And I, myself, on
my own humble little corner of the blogosphere pointed out that MoveOn got a lot more than the usual standby service for their $65,000.
But, you lefties, rather than doing any research at all, would rather fling poo at someone who pointed out hypocrisy at the Bible of modern leftism, the NY
Times.
Everyone is equal, but clearly the
Times believes some are more equal than others. Orwell would be so proud.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 15, 2007 02:20 PM (lo4eE)
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I seriously doubt there is a federal violation here --- the FEC governs elections, not political advocacy in general. If it tried to regulate here it would likely run up against the 1st amendment. Broadcast media were historically considered different because of the idea that the airwaves were a scarce resource, the use of which could be controlled for the public good,
The NYT could give this ad to MoveOn gratis and the FEC or anyone else (except their shareholders) couldn't do crap about it.
Posted by: sj at September 15, 2007 03:56 PM (hKGWM)
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Standby pricing?? Not in the published rates??Sounds more like a recent invention NYT is using to cover their backside.
Posted by: czekmark at September 16, 2007 04:19 AM (5Jrbj)
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I love the smell of BDS in the morning. It smells like - Victory.
Arbalest at Ace of Spades has the perfect comment.
"This would seem to be proof that, with the right technique and tools, even the mighty editors of the New York Times can be made to pass a full size Roman brick; flat sides, straight and square corners and blunt ends."
Confederate Yankee, may I respectfully recommend that dave™© be
disemvoweled.
Posted by: Looking Glass at September 16, 2007 05:13 AM (fX5Hp)
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LG, disemvoweling does seem interesting to try and perhaps I may some day for comedic effect, but typically, I take out all the trash, and not just some of it.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 16, 2007 06:11 AM (HcgFD)
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Confederate Yankee,
Disemvoweling is a powerful tool to use against trolls. It doesn't confer the legitimacy of being deleted. They're turned into publicly impotent inarticulate fools even in their own minds.
You are severely underestimating the psychological effect
on the troll.
Posted by: Looking Glass at September 16, 2007 09:11 AM (fX5Hp)
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Heh. Disemvoweling. I'll have to remember that trick for dealing with my own trolls... who, fortunately, are few and far between.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 16, 2007 09:40 AM (lo4eE)
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Trackbacked by The Thunder Run -
Web Reconnaissance for 09/17/2007
A short recon of whatÂ’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.
Posted by: David M at September 17, 2007 10:22 AM (gIAM9)
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Reuters finally does something interesting, and nobody notices.
Posted by: Neo at September 18, 2007 08:52 AM (Yozw9)
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I'll be darned, Neo.
It'll be going up on my humble little corner of the blogosphere right away.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 18, 2007 09:10 AM (lo4eE)
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TNR Writer: Dishonest journalists "should be named, shamed, and driven out of the profession altogether, never to write again."
The New Republic has a writer named James Kirchick who got
righteously indignant when a HuffPo writer plagiarized his original work.
Says Kirchick:
There is no worse offense in the journalistic profession than stealing someone else's work and those who do should be named, shamed, and driven out of the profession altogether, never to write again.
Oh James... I think we can come up with just a few journalistic offenses more damning than mere plagiarism.
Here's a few for starters.
Unquestioningly run fake stories of American atrocities, where you can't even correctly pin down even the country in which one of them takes place.
Allow a police force to be accused of murder based upon a claim that was disproven with a simple Google search.
Blatantly lie to your readers and your fellow journalists about fact-checking said stories beforehand.
Hide the marital relationship between the dishonest author and your staff fact-checker for as long as possible, and then fire the person who discloses it.
When you try to justify the fact you didn't do basic fact-checking before you ran these stories by citing experts in your "re-reporting", keep them anonymous and in the dark, asking them only vague, almost meaninglessly general questions. That way, they don't know how they are being used, and they can't be given the whole story (because if they knew all the facts, they'd tell a quite different story).
Refuse to acknowledge or print the testimony of authorities and witnesses that directly contradict your claims, and refuse to answer any of the substantive criticism leveled against you, while alleging that others aren't allowing the truth the come out, so that you can avoid resigning in disgrace for another day.
These things might be just a bit worse than putting your name on someone's else's story, but I think we all agree with your preferred punishment.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Hmmm... when do the firings of the editorial staff at The New Republic start, CY?
Posted by: C-C-G at September 15, 2007 02:21 PM (lo4eE)
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The New Republic complains about journalistic malpractice.
Rich creamy schadenfreude so thick you can roll it up and eat it with a fork. But use a spoon, you'll want to get every drop.
Posted by: Looking Glass at September 16, 2007 05:03 AM (fX5Hp)
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I'll bet James has lifted quite a bit of his work elsewhere. He's protesting a tad too loudly.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at September 16, 2007 09:36 AM (/G4Xe)
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An interesting thing -- if you read the comments of TNR subscribers, there is little sympathy whatsoever for Kirchik. Apparently he has overused this tone of wounded indignation and exhausted people's patience.
Posted by: huxley at September 16, 2007 03:30 PM (QHkH+)
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Maybe TNR readers realize that if what Kirchick proposes actually happened at TNR, they'd have to hire replacements for just about the entire staff.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 16, 2007 04:13 PM (lo4eE)
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September 13, 2007
Media Runs with MoveOn.org/NY Times Ad Rate Story
I'm tickled that Charles Hurt of the
New York Post picked up and ran with the ball on
this story, which now seems to have generated a surprising (to me) degree of interest. In addition to Hurt's article, Brent Bozell
got to talk about it on Fox News Live, and I caught the tail-end of it being discussed on Rush Limbaugh's radio show briefly yesterday.
ABC's Jake Tapper, who first reported what Moveon.org paid for their ad, is on the story again today and reveals that a conservative organization who ran a full page ad the next day paid "significantly more."
Oops.
It appears that the NY Times may take a much bigger hit to their the credibilty and the bottom line than they ever anticipated as a result.
I doubt stockholders will be pleased.
(h/t Allah at Hot Air, who kindly remembers where this conflagration over the deep discount started.)
Update: Thanks.
Update: This is growing far more than I could have ever expected. Fred! and Rudy pile on. and Hot Air has the audio and video. Uncle Jimbo has filed a complaint with the FEC, and though I won't pretend to have the first clue on whether or not this has any "bite," a commenter over at Ace's place discovers something that looks like where they could have potentially run afoul of the law.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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You go, boy! You have become web-death, destroyer of community-based realities.
Posted by: CK MacLeod at September 13, 2007 02:15 PM (dvksz)
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More than a blog to their credibility. It was an illegal campaign donation. Details
here.
Posted by: km at September 13, 2007 05:41 PM (SxR3N)
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Wouldn't the discount given MoveOn be considered and "in kind" contribution to a PAC and is therefore reportable?
Inquiring minds would like to know!
Posted by: Ron O at September 13, 2007 06:14 PM (GCmiW)
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Wow, km. thanks for the link. This may get very interesting.
Congrats CY!
Posted by: iconoclast at September 13, 2007 06:25 PM (/doyt)
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While the discount might be ironic and irritating, I think it's much worse bringing the force of law against private business practices. The NYT should take a hit on their credibility, and should be hammered by advertisers who pay more in negotiations, but I hate that this has anything to do with the law at all, and that anyone is talking about 'equal time'.
I don't know how much this has to do with McCain-Feingold but every time something like this comes up I remember why I wouldn't cast a vote for John McCain if a pistol were held to my temple.
Posted by: Morgan at September 13, 2007 06:33 PM (VDm42)
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Meanwhile, in his secret underground lair beneath the White House, Karl Rove lights a smuggled Montecristo No. 4, draws heavily, then rubs his hands together as he cackles with fiendish glee.....
"Bwahahahahahaha! MoveOn thought I had moved on, but what fools these mortals be! Those glassy-eyed barking twerps will never know they got their discount from one of my super-secret undercover agents planted in the Times. What a set-up! What a pay-off! I love it when a plan comes together!"
Posted by: MarkJ at September 13, 2007 06:50 PM (ZFVlP)
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If they slime out on everything else, at least you punched them in the pocket book... Whatever else happens, they won't be able to charge any other political outfit rate card for the next year or so... Thats gonna hurt.
Posted by: Thomass at September 13, 2007 06:59 PM (JSaQZ)
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Morgan,
You know that I agree with you in principle, but as a law abiding citizen I just cannot see why I should allow the NY Times to flout the law when it applies to them, do you? It hurts me to do it, but the law is the law and if we let the Times get away with it, where would we be? Selective enforcement of the law leads to injustice and anarchy. That way madness lies.
Snicker.
Posted by: Moneyrunner at September 13, 2007 07:29 PM (sSRa8)
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Senator John McCain also left a message for democratic presidential candidates, via Instapundit and The Corner:
"If you're not tough enough to repudiate a scurrilous, outrageous attack such as that, then I don't know how you're tough enough to be President of the United States."
Posted by: bnelson44 at September 13, 2007 07:45 PM (dv5bx)
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"Giuliani also suggested that MoveOn received a discount from The New York Times. The organization did not; they received the rate of $64,575 that the newspaper charges for a special advocacy, full-page, black and white, standby ad."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6919844,00.html
It's cool, though. As long as you claim Jamil Hussein was the AP's source, you'll never have to admit you're wrong.
Posted by: Oops! at September 13, 2007 09:43 PM (2EgQ8)
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I'm Putz Sulzberger. My company's stock is tanking, my newspaper's circulation is plummeting, and my attempts to make money on the internet have been Edsel-like in their ineptitude. What to do? No problem...I'll punish my capitalist stockholders by selling full-page ads at near-cost to lefty causes. Hey, it's a teachable moment, and that oughta teach 'em!
Posted by: Clioman at September 13, 2007 09:50 PM (CNAh+)
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 13, 2007 09:53 PM (HcgFD)
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I'm not surpried the NY Post is taking an interest in this; anything to trash the competition. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
But I think the NYT considers itself immune and vaccinated against this sort of complaining; it's in good with the left-Dhimmies and Manhattanites.
Posted by: Steve White at September 13, 2007 10:02 PM (CkRqT)
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Well, gosh, CY. I don't know, but I'd guess that perhaps the NYT isn't in the business of selling ad space up until the minute before the paper prints? (Especially since the size of a newspaper on any given day is dependent on the amount of ad inches in that newspaper.)And that perhaps the NYT would have known even days in advance when the MoveOn ad would run?
By the way, I know it hurts K. Lo to do research, but there's another article that explains exactly what standby means. It says "At that rate, an advertiser can request that an ad run on a specific date, but cannot be guaranteed such placement."
And I'd also guess that -- especially since the invention of this crazy new thing I've been hearing so much about, I think it's called the Intertubes -- it takes a matter of minutes to change a single word in an advertisement: a call to whoever designed the ad saying, "Hey, can you go into inDesign, change a single word for me and then e-mail or FTP it back to me?"
Or, hey, here's an idea: maybe MoveOn made SEVERAL VERSIONS of the ad and sent them to the NYT to run the relevant one? You know, like one that said "yesterday," one that said "today," and maybe, if they were feeling ambitious, even one that said "tomorrow."
Of course, I don't know any of this for sure, but then again, neither does K. Lo. And you know, it wouldn't kill you to pick up a phone, call the NYT and MoveOn and find out, and until then, refrain from speculating. Just a suggestion.
Posted by: Oops! at September 13, 2007 10:04 PM (2EgQ8)
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What would be really interesting to know is who, exactly, approved the special rate. Certainly it wasn't a sales rep, and I doubt that the director of advertising could have authorized it.
Joe Jackson
Cairo, IL
Posted by: Joe Jackson at September 13, 2007 10:22 PM (Z+179)
Posted by: C-C-G at September 13, 2007 10:43 PM (lo4eE)
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Oops!, you certainly seem to know a lot about the the
NY Times operates, which really got my interest. Do you perhaps work for the newspaper in some regard?
I only ask because you are writing from midtown Manhattan.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 13, 2007 10:45 PM (HcgFD)
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Jesus, you don't stop just flinging things against the wall to see what'll stick, do you?
I'm actually writing from below 14th Street. And I don't work for the Times. And, um, people do live in midtown, you know. Also, at midnight eastern, you're assuming I'm still at the office? Sure are a lot of sharks you'd have to jump to reach that "HE WORKS FOR THE TIMES!!!!" conclusion.
I have, however, worked for a newspaper, and ad policies don't differ that much. Also, I have the common sense to understand concepts like changing a single word and producing, say, three different versions of an ad in case it runs on a day other than the one you'd hoped for. I wouldn't have thought you'd have needed to work at a newspaper to come up with that idea, but hey -- at least you've proved me wrong about something tonight.
Posted by: Oops! at September 13, 2007 11:07 PM (2EgQ8)
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By the way, you can see my location from my IP, but not that my ISP is clearly a residential one? Interesting.
Posted by: Oops! at September 13, 2007 11:13 PM (2EgQ8)
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I don't think I jumped any sharks, Oops!; you have at least some knowledge of newspapers, are a
Times/MoveOn.org apologist, and are located in Manhattan, so it was worth asking the question. The sad fact of the matter is that at least one journalist and blogger from your side have been caught sock-puppeting on blogs in recent memory. With so many people taking their wireless laptops from home to work and back again, the ISP of the moment matters little.
We'll see how this shakes out over coming days, I'm sure.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 13, 2007 11:30 PM (HcgFD)
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Useful words, CY: "I'm sorry. I jumped to conclusions, and I was wrong."
You can practice on me first if you want.
Posted by: Oops! at September 14, 2007 12:01 AM (2EgQ8)
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Funny, Oops!, I didn't see CY get to ANY conclusion, by jumping, crawling, or brachiating. I saw him cite several facts and produce a theory that explained them, and ask you to confirm or deny them. Nothing "conclusive" about any of it.
One has to wonder, though, why you are so defensive about the possibility that you do work for the NYT...
Nah. It really isn't that mysterious, now that I think about it. I wouldn't want to admit I worked for the New York Times, either. It's the "crabs" of resumes, these days.
J.
Posted by: Jay Tea at September 14, 2007 01:40 AM (wKamV)
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I'd like to see the Times give MoveOn even bigger discounts.
The Republicans can use the help.
Posted by: M. Simon at September 14, 2007 06:10 AM (aciBF)
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--Useful words, CY: "I'm sorry. I jumped to conclusions, and I was wrong.--
Useful indeed, Oops! When do you plan to use them?
Posted by: Mark L at September 14, 2007 06:21 AM (tPpDh)
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Well, Mark, considering that CY and others had asserted that MoveOn was given a discount, which they weren't, and that Fleischer's group was charged more (they were offered the same rate, they admit in today's Times -- but they turned it down) and considering that CY and K. Lo then turned to flailing around trying to pretend that they didn't understand how simple it would be to change the word "today" to "yesterday" and vice versa, on this subject, I don't believe it'll be any time soon.
The Kool-Aid must be remarkably tasty, because the fact that you people are still hanging on to this is amazing.
Posted by: Oops! at September 14, 2007 08:47 AM (2EgQ8)
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Oops, one must also consider the
level of service they got for their $65,000.
As I pointed out, Freedom's Watch was told that they
could not pick the date or placement of an ad at the $65,000 rate. Yet MoveOn either was the recipient of an incredible coincidence, having a full-page spot "just happen" to open up on the first day of General Petraeus' testimony, or they got more for their $65,000 than other advertisers or potential advertisers got. I, myself, have shown evidence that an advertiser was
not offered that level of service for the same price.
It's not
just about the price, Oops. It's also what they received for the price. And MoveOn sure appears to have gotten a lot more for their $65,000 than Freedom's Watch was offered.
Your name, however, appears to have been well-chosen. You're making Oops!-es all over the place.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 14, 2007 09:14 AM (lo4eE)
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Well, Mark, considering that CY and others had asserted that MoveOn was given a discount,
which they weren't, and that Fleischer's group was charged more (they were offered the same rate, they admit in today's Times -- but they turned it down) and considering that CY and K.
So, Shannon McCaffery speaks the gospel now? She doesn't appear to have confirmed any of this, or if she has she's a really crappy writer for not mentioning it. Looks like you got a little "Oops!" on yourself, my friend. Are you going to hang your hat on her statement that "The organization did not..." as your source, or would you rather try that nifty phrase you offered above?
Posted by: Pablo at September 14, 2007 09:16 AM (yTndK)
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Hmmmmm.
It's rather curious that lately there have been a number of liberals across most conservative blogs that are taking the position that asking a question, based on available information, is significantly akin to coming to a conclusion.
*shrug* or maybe it's the same liberal. Who knows really and, more to the point, who cares.
Posted by: memomachine at September 14, 2007 09:51 AM (3pvQO)
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Hmmm.
This is what I love about blogs. Some weird or nonsensical piece of silliness crops up and all of a sudden ... a new learning opportunity to find out something both interesting and mostly useless.
BlackFive: NY Times- Standby rate for fellow travelers
Evidently the rate given to MoveOn was a "standby" rate which means that not only can they not specify where the ad goes but also anybody else, *anyone* else, can override the placement of MoveOn's ad by simply offering to pay more.
I.e. a standby advertisement block goes to the highest bidder.
It's this last point that I'm curious about. Hey "Oops!". Why didn't you include that last bit? Since you're so knowledgeable and such.
Frankly I find it hardly credible that they couldn't find another buyer for such a large and well placed spot.
Posted by: memomachine at September 14, 2007 10:00 AM (3pvQO)
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"I've yet to see a argument refuting the pretty solid ad from Moveon."
Right - calling a serving General a traitor is REAL "solid."
Here's a hint as to the underlying arguments - you won't be as likely to find refutations at Daily Kos, the Huffington Post, Think Progress, or wherever else you go to lap up your anti-war pablum.
Over the course of two days of questioning, and weeks of "my data vs. your data," I have yet to see a single leftwing or anti-war observer move beyond the most superficial and skewed renderings of, e.g., the GAO report or the Jones report, or even come close to engaging the responses from Petraeus, Crocker, or surge supporters.
Not one Senator or Representative who invoked the GAO report in re nationwide war casualties, for instance, addressed Petraeus' repeated response that it left out the last and most important 5 weeks of the 12-week period during which the surge was in effect. Instead, typically, we saw the same lame talking point recycled over and over again, whether it was from Boxer, from Clinton, from Donner or Blitzen. Not one Senator, Representative, or leftwing reindeer chose to engage the arguments regarding the benchmarks and their relevance.
As for Petraeus himself and his background, we see repeated, obviously one-sided attacks on his background and his career from the usual suspects. He oversaw training for around a year, and then was withdrawn. During the same period under which most of Iraq unraveled, so, too, did most of his work. No fair-minded observer has held him or his tenure responsible. The Democrats themselves, when joining in his 81-0 Senate confirmation vote, already rendered their overall judgment on him and his career. It really should go without staying, Anyone interested in further details, rather than pointless slams, will discover a much larger, and much more impressive story than you'll find in MoveOn's summary of the Democrat/left attacks.
Posted by: CK MacLeod at September 14, 2007 01:06 PM (dvksz)
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A person could get whiplash trying to follow all the various VERSIONS of "truth" involved in this debacle. The bottom line is that MoveOn.org is a group that consists of anti-American hatemongers who have bought and paid for 99% of the Democratic Party and thus, regardless of who is getting the Senatorial or even Presidential paycheck, it's probable that if a Democrat wins in 2008, George Soros will be for all intents and purposes the president of the United States. And that prospect scares the living hell out of me!
Posted by: Gayle Miller at September 14, 2007 01:30 PM (eW43z)
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Frederick, it is logically impossible to prove a negative.
Please provide proof (and not from MoveOn's website, or any other lefty site) of the veracity of the statements contained in MoveOn's ad.
Betcha can't!
Posted by: C-C-G at September 14, 2007 07:30 PM (lo4eE)
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Hey, CF, you got a good mention in Advertising Age: http://adage.com/mediaworks/article?article_id=120480
Posted by: William Teach at September 14, 2007 08:14 PM (NaHh8)
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Frederick, now give us a point-by-point explanation of how all those links validate their assertion that Petraeus has delivered incorrect data to the Congress.
No, I am not going to let you off easy. You wanna play with the conservatives, you gotta learn to
prove your points. This ain't DKos, DU, or the HuffPo, an assertion is not enough around these parts.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 15, 2007 08:26 AM (lo4eE)
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September 12, 2007
U.S. Soldiers in Iraq Unload On Petraeus Testimony
Did I say "unload on?" I meant
echoed:
At this wind-swept base near the Iranian border, the main points of Gen. David Petraeus' testimony to Congress were met with widespread agreement among soldiers: The American troop buildup is working, but the military needs more time.
Most of the soldiers at FOB Delta, some 100 miles southeast of Baghdad, were out on patrol or sleeping when Petraeus' comments were broadcast late Monday and Tuesday in Iraq.
But some heard it and others have read about it, and say they agree with their commander's assessment.
Staff Sgt. Matthew Nicholls of the 71st Medical Detachment, visiting FOB Delta from his post in southern Iraq to do an assessment, said the military still needs time to clean up mistakes made after the 2003 invasion, including the need to build an Iraqi army from scratch and to secure the borders.
"I think our initial assessment was too rosy," he said after reading about the hearings while sitting in the library at the recreation center. "It takes time to build an army and I think we should've secured the borders right away."
The 36-year-old from Mobile, Ala., also said American politicians need to be more understanding.
"They can be critical because they are politicians and their main goal is to be re-elected, but they see a much more limited piece than the troops on the ground," he said.
[snip]
Sgt. Nathaniel Killip, 24, of Indianapolis, caught part of the general's presentation on TV and said he agreed that withdrawing all U.S. troops or setting a date to do so before Iraqi security forces have proven themselves ready to take over would open the doors for insurgents to attack.
"They're just going to lay back and wait until it's a softer target," he said.
No doubt ad writers for MoveOn.org are desperately clawing through thesauri and dictionaries attempting to find synonyms for betrayal that rhyme with "Killip" and "Nicholls."
Off-Topic Update:Support citizen journalism. (hey, I only ask for donations one week a year... the other 51 weeks are free!)
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1
Of course these troops are just children who are sent off to war to die for Haliburton and oil because they can't get a job in America, where unemployment is skyrocketing and the people devestated by Katrina are getting their welfare cut off after only two years. These troops are brain-washed by Dick Cheney to parrot the company line. Clearly, they have no thoughts of their own and have no clue how ill-informed they are. If they knew anything, they'd address the effect on Iraq on global warming and how it keeps children from receiving adequate healthcare in the U.S. instead of oppressing the Iraqis, who were obviously better off under Saddam.*
*(I am sure leftist dopes who read the above for nodding their heads in agreement until they reached this parenthetical)
Posted by: Brian at September 12, 2007 10:31 PM (S7gDM)
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Brian
Pitch perfect. You had me!
CY
Thanks for this.
Tom
Posted by: Tom at September 12, 2007 10:48 PM (+BCbH)
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Brian, one part of your lefty impersonation rings a little bit false.
To most lefties, most members of the armed forces aren't merely stupid dupes, they're sub-human creatures (lefties won't even call them animals, because animals are always pure and innocent) who enjoy murdering, raping, torturing, looting, and so on and so forth.
The only way to prove that you aren't one of these is to proclaim that every
other member of the armed forces is.
For examples, see Scott "I know it was Iraq... or was it Kuwait?" Beauchamp and/or John "Christmas in Cambodia" Kerry.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 12, 2007 11:41 PM (lo4eE)
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My son who is stationed in Iraq as part of a joint task force out of Fort Stewart, GA, tells me that he and his fellow soldiers support Gen Petraeus fully. He also said that the support offered by both sides in the US Congress has all of them shaking their heads and wondering what country they are supposed to be representing. "The Democrats haven't a clue what we are doing here, and many of the Republicans who are advocating our withdrawil seem to forget, if they every really knew, what we are doing here. We signed up to serve our country, and to obey the orders of our superiors, and we do it, whether we agree with their decisions or not, but it seems that the "leaders" in congress forgot that they also have a responsibility to us as well," he told me in a recent email. He is his fathers son. I served 22 years in the Army and am and always have been very conservative in my politics and my personal affairs. He makes me proud every time I think of him.
Posted by: Robert Miller at September 13, 2007 12:03 AM (teVF+)
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>Posted by: Robert Miller at September 13, 2007 12:03 AM<
I'd say your pride is well justified. Hell, I'm proud of him and I don't even know either of you!
Posted by: TBinSTL at September 13, 2007 02:45 AM (2J6+t)
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I thought it was called moron.com! Well, that's how they act.
Posted by: Frederico at September 13, 2007 11:36 AM (t+Av+)
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I graduated law school lst December and everything I wrote is something that I heard one time or another from silly liberals there, which includes both students and profesors. I love writing things like that.
For the record, I support our fine General and I believe history will prove Bush correct. And, knowing quite a few military guys, I know what they are all about. I thank God for them every day.
I feel sorry for liberals and Democrats who are so worried about winning an election they can't stand or allow any American success. What do they think, come January 2009, when Bush heads back to the ranch, that terrorism is going to go away? I'll bet a lot of them actually do. I'll take the imperfect action of Bush any day over the perfection of doing nothing.
Posted by: Brian at September 13, 2007 11:42 AM (S7gDM)
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Trackbacked by The Thunder Run -
Web Reconnaissance for 09/13/2007
A short recon of whatÂ’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.
Posted by: David M at September 13, 2007 12:21 PM (gIAM9)
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Oh, Brian. You're too generous.
This is bigger for a lot of them then mere elections. This is about how a worldview plays out.
Progressives see themselves as enlightened champions of all that is good and just (and by just, I mean for "the downtrodden"). Never you mind that the results of their actions have very little in common with their rhetoric.
In Bush, you have the ignorant hillbilly whose leadership (greatly flawed as it is) gave 52 million or so people a shot at Democracy in a land and culture utterly bereft of it.
Progressives were on the wrong side of history throughout the Cold War. At the very least many refused to condemn the Communists. Often, they outright supported them. History showed that. For all his self-righteous blather, it was Reagan, not Carter, whose efforts led to the fall of the Soviet Union.
Progressives like to dispute that here, but Eastern Europeans know better. And they're the ones in the position to.
Today, we have an opportunity to utterly change the character of the Middle East. If we fail, we will be tied up in low-level conflicts for some time, on a slow trickle of casualties. Assuming somebody doesn't do anything foolish with a nuke. If we fail and withdraw, we may see the loss of hundreds of thousands if not millions in the long run. But if we succeed, it will have been - again - a conservative who brought real change, real hope and real progress to people who need it most.
It won't be a Progressive.
Even now, for Progressives, how someone dies and who kills them is irrelevant beyond its rhetorical use as a club against America. They cite civilian deaths, but refuse to parse out whether those deaths were deliberately caused by their "minute men."
Hundreds of thousands have been killed throughout the world in the last few decades, and Progressives have rarely batted an eye. Look at Sudan, Angola, Rwanda. Between 1998 and 2003 nearly 4 million people died in the Great African War. How much ink did the New York Times spill over it? Have they advocated much? To draw attention to it would be to draw attention to the uselessness of the UN. And they can't have that. Look at Barack Obama and Kucinich's "Plans" for Iraq.
Like the jihadi, belief is why they fight against the Iraq Campaign. A million deaths is a statistic. A man they once openly supported said that. But Progressive beliefs are something they can't stand to have killed. To have the evil right-wingers bring about a sea change justice, true progress and humanity to the Middle East while they crossed their arms, stomped their feet and said "NO!" is too much.
Posted by: Amos at September 13, 2007 12:43 PM (gYsFF)
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Amos
A great response addressing the presumed infallibility of progressives/leftists. Even in this thread, Frederick claimed the ability to see the future ("...Won't happen....")echoes the claimed abilitiy of progressives everywhere to predict the future. And yet they are so often wrong--economics, foreign policy, etc.--that to preserve their worldview requires an orwellian rewrite of history on almost a constant basis.
Posted by: iconoclast at September 13, 2007 12:53 PM (TzLpv)
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Frederick speculates that:
"The Surge was to allow one last chance for political reconciliation within the Iraqi Government, and that hasn't happened. Won't happen."
I recall leftists claiming that Anbar would never be pacified in 06. Ooops.
Never say never.
If there has been no reconciliation in the Iraqi government how would one explain Sunni and Shia leaders in Diyala pledging to unite to fight al-Qaida and illegal militias or Maliki reaching out to Sunni anti-terrorist leaders in Al Anbar?
Posted by: ME at September 13, 2007 03:41 PM (gkobM)
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The "surge" wasn't even completely in effect until early August. And this idiot Frederick thinks that the political situation should be solved in one month. The intellectual vacancy of the left is stunning!
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at September 13, 2007 05:36 PM (Lgw9b)
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Frederick, please provide evidence for the claim that the Surge was
only to provide breathing room for political reconciliation.
And, since I note that your first link in the above comment was to MoveOn, I should warn you that any attempt to use that website as "evidence" around these parts generally results in gales of laughter at the person trying it. Sort of like trying to use Wikipedia.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 13, 2007 07:07 PM (lo4eE)
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Amos,
Like John Stuart Mill said:
"First, if any opinion is compelled to silence, that opinion may, for aught we can certainly know, be true. To deny this is to assume our own infallibility."
Your post proves why Mill was right that all opinions should be listened to and considered. There is some good points in it, along with a lot of nonsense. Thanks for sharing.
Posted by: Brian at September 13, 2007 11:00 PM (YLzZW)
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Frederick, since you commented on another post today, I know you have been here.
Please provide the evidence I requested above.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 14, 2007 07:32 PM (lo4eE)
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I note you were back again, Frederick, and still no evidence.
Seems I chased another lefty away from this thread.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 15, 2007 08:26 AM (lo4eE)
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I just caught a tiny part of a long PBS special on Iraq War II, and it seems they could only find mercenaries and doubters in the military over there.
They interviewed two GIs who were coming to the end of the contracts. One was re-signing only for the big bonus. The other was given time to provide a juicy quote - which was that he would never, ever sign up for this military again, then tacked on maybe he would if somebody could explain to him what the hell we were doing over there --- with his point being nobody could, so his never, ever pledge was safe.
Then, when a real news outlet (which I can't seem to locate) would have cut to some balance by showing soldiers who believed in what they were doing and re-signing for more than money....
.....PBS moved on to amplify the last GI's narrative by saying how the country has been lost from the beginning on whether there was a need for a war or not and that we were stuck in a quagmire the next president would have to bail us out of...
So, if PBS can't find soldiers who believe in the mission, I guess this story you posted on your blog can't be true, right....?
Posted by: usinkorea at September 16, 2007 02:42 PM (bcdiK)
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What Else Remains
At this point in the Scott Beauchamp/
The New Republic scandal, only two questions really matter:
- Have the editors of The New Republic spoken with Scott Beauchamp since his July 26 statement outing himself?
- If so, does Beauchamp still stand by his stories as he then claimed?
There are several reasons to ask this question now, starting with the fact that we know Scott Beauchamp has very recently been available for interviews.
It was quite easy to verify this: I sent in a request for an interview with Private Beauchamp several weeks ago. When he turned it down this past week, it verified that he had returned from COP Ellis to FOB Falcon. His log-in to his MySpace page on September 6 also corroborates his return.
Under intense pressure to provide support for the stories that have tarnished the magazine's image, Franklin Foer was no doubt first in line to try to speak with Private Beauchamp once he returned to FOB Falcon. It would also be reasonable to assume that because of their previous relationship, Beauchamp would choose to speak to Foer or other editors of The New Republic if he chose to speak with anyone at all. Could we interpret the magazine's continuing silence to mean that Beauchamp himself has backed away from his previous claims?
If Franklin Foer cannot get Scott Beauchamp to provide supporting evidence for the claims he posted, then Foer has an obligation and a duty to retract all three of Beauchamp's stories.
The problem with doing so, however, is that the retractions would also show that "the Editors" previous claim that "the article was rigorously edited and fact-checked before it was published" to also be a dishonest fabrication, and that deception would demand editorial resignations at TNR as well.
* * *
Please consider supporting my attempts at investigative citizen journalism via one of the options below. Thanks!
Update: I made a few minor tweaks o the text above, but nothing substantial.
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1
Bob thanks for continuing to put this issue up on the screen. I concur with an earlier comment on an earlier article: although it is true that Foer et al, don't care about the truth and are just pandering to their like-minded core readership, your efforts are not at all in vain. They are outed and their credibility is being eroded. Rightly so. Those readers who do have some integrity are going to feel defrauded even if they agree with the "narrative" in general. People will stop citing TNR's articles. At least some writers, even on the left, are not going to want to be associated with it and will sell their wares elsewhere. No matter how accurate some of their reporting may be, no one can ever really be sure whether or not its been fact checked and/or whether its being made up if its published in TNR. The truthers and other rabid lefties won't care. This is a similar situation to what happens when a small-town police department allows one low-life bar or club to remain open for business in a bad part of town, knowing that it is full of criminals, prostitutes and drug dealers. They could shut it down but don't because it serves purpose; at least they have them all concentrated in one place and you can keep tabs on what they are doing. TNR can now become the low-life pseudo-intellectual lefty hang-out, full of oblivious "insiders" who don't have a clue what they look like to the "outsiders." CY is doing great work now in getting them identified for what they really are and helping them move into their new role. The more the public is reminded of what they are, the better.
Posted by: Stephanie at September 12, 2007 06:23 AM (AIF2K)
2
Could we interpret the magazine's continuing silence to mean that Beauchamp himself has backed away from his previous claims?....The problem with doing so, however, is that the retractions would also show that "the Editors" previous claim that "the article was rigorously edited and fact-checked before it was published" to also be a dishonest fabrication, and that deception would demand editorial resignations at TNR as well.
Both these things might be true, but, as it stands, this is speculation built upon speculation and then published with the aura of fact--after all, you have a goal of holding the "MSM" to a rigorous standard of veracity. Isn't this kind of "if...then" guesswork the kind of thing you'd bust TNR for if they tried it?
Posted by: nunaim at September 12, 2007 08:17 AM (asdkJ)
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With TNR and STB staying silent all there can be from this point forward is speculation. Although their silence is damning....I speculate.
Posted by: T.Ferg at September 12, 2007 09:08 AM (2YVh7)
4
Nunaim,
It is not published as fact. It is speculation and clearly stated as such. And T.Ferg makes another very clear point as to the protracted silence from TNR. There is nothing wrong with having a contrarian around here but you often go to such pretzeled lengths to take issue that you look silly.
Posted by: rbnyc at September 12, 2007 09:25 AM (+IX3y)
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Bob,
Well done.
And congratulations to you and the Mrs.
And yes, nunaim is a troll.
Over and over again there are contrarian commments for their own sake, adding nothing to the discussion.
Sorry.
It's just the way it is.
Just sayin'.
Posted by: MTT at September 12, 2007 12:53 PM (1xjmZ)
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If Beauchamp's position is that he lied to TNR when heÂ’s talking to the army, and that he lied to the army when heÂ’s talking to TNR, he's home free. After all, itÂ’s not a crime to lie to a magazine and it's in the magazine's interest to believe he lied to the army. So everyone is happy and the whole thing drops from sight.
Posted by: Fred at September 12, 2007 12:58 PM (Zs/xF)
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nunaim -- Beauchamp and TNR have made damaging claims about the military both in Beauchamp's articles and in TNR's indignant counter-attacks after Beauchamp's articles were questioned. It is their responsibility to demonstrate that the articles are true and that they were indeed fact-checked as claimed. So far they have done neither.
Bob Owens has been quite transparent about what he knows and how he knows it. There is no moral equivalence here. Beauchamp and TNR are not conducting themselves with good faith; Bob Owens is.
It's strange to have to explain things like this.
Posted by: huxley at September 12, 2007 01:00 PM (uEcnT)
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Trackbacked by The Thunder Run -
Web Reconnaissance for 09/12/2007
A short recon of whatÂ’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.
Posted by: David M at September 12, 2007 01:24 PM (gIAM9)
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One of the most interesting aspects of this affair - indeed, to my mind, now the crux of it - is the mysterious statement of recantation supposedly signed by Private Beauchamp, but not released by the military due to "privacy concerns."
Somebody apparently leaked the fact that such a statement exists, but so far the recantation remains unpublished.
I wonder if there is anybody with legal standing to sue the military and force the release of the statement, if it does, indeed, exist?
If he did recant, it would certainly resolve this issue in the minds of most observers.
Posted by: Bill Quick at September 12, 2007 01:53 PM (dZ9FW)
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I could be mistaken but I think Beauchamp himself could ask the Army to release it.
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at September 12, 2007 01:57 PM (Lgw9b)
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My opinion and clearly stated as such is that
TNR doesn't give a rats a** if the Scott Beauchamp stories are true or not. TNR has a small but loyal readership they have to satisfy. Doing this requires they print stories that fit a certain narrative with which their SBLR can agree.This makes the readership feel superior to all the rest of you rubes because only they have the brains, taste, and discrimination to read and understand the content of TNR. I used to feel the same way about Mad Magazine.
Posted by: Glenn at September 12, 2007 02:18 PM (zp+Xy)
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AH Yes, He could ask for the release.....you know much as could Kerry have asked for "full and complete" release of his records!
Har!
Posted by: Duke DeLand at September 12, 2007 02:18 PM (kZio2)
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In answer to Bill Quick, I deal with privacy matters on a regular basis at a university. I don't claim that the Army and the average university are the same, but I do know the law (written with regard to universities, private employers in the US, etc) generally protects privacy information from lawsuits by outsiders. There are always exceptions, and I suspect the law is some different for the military. That said, I'd be surprised if a lawsuit could shake loose any statement that Pvt. Beauchamp signed.
Posted by: Steve White at September 12, 2007 02:22 PM (D14J4)
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When I was about 12 years old
Posted by: Glenn at September 12, 2007 02:22 PM (zp+Xy)
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Hmmm.
*shrug* I believe also that Beauchamp could ask for copies of the documents he has signed and then send them to TNR or anybody else.
Posted by: memomachine at September 12, 2007 02:23 PM (3pvQO)
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Hmmm.
I assume that TNR is done with their summer vacation?
Or are they onto the super secret double vacation?
Posted by: memomachine at September 12, 2007 02:26 PM (3pvQO)
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It appears that Beauchamp did indeed recant - but what he recanted was his first signed statement to the Army in which, apparently, he said he hadn't been involved in the stories.
Later that day he signed a second statement acknowledging he was 'Scott Thomas', along with other stipulations we aren't privy to.
Posted by: molon labe at September 12, 2007 03:08 PM (GbgRr)
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I think a much more interesting question is: given that TNR's "fact checking" appears to have been done in bad faith, just how many people at the magazine knew it was fake all along?
Posted by: Daryl Herbert at September 12, 2007 03:19 PM (YvLui)
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I can predict the future. This is the future what I can see in my magical eight ball:
SB will not talk until he is released from his military commitment, at which time TNR will let his "true story" be made public.
The "true story" will be that he has been telling the truth the entire time but that pressure from the military had kept him from saying so, and it is not cowardly to shrink in the face of the power of the American Military Industrial Complex.
Great applause and celebrations on the left side of the street for his heroic truth-telling-to-power ensues.
Posted by: Anga2010 at September 12, 2007 07:13 PM (VwZUL)
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This is another "fake but true" narrative along the lines of the Mary Mapes story on George Bush and the National Guard.
Even if its not "exactly" true, well, you know that is what happens to people when they go off to war. So, to a liberal, it must be true, because they have been told that it is true, that US soldiers are war criminals, and it is up to TNR and other "heros" of the anti-war movement to bring these beasts to task.
Look at the bevy of anti-military movies now in the pipeline, and it is quite obvious to me that the Left has now decided to attack the military itself, having had no real success in its attack on Bush and his allies. They are now in the business of slandering the military in an effort to turn the American people against the war on terror.
They may succeed. But, if they don't, I would hate to be in their shoes. In my mind some of them have now entered the realm of traitor, and they should be punished as such.
Posted by: templar knight at September 12, 2007 07:34 PM (2LEwd)
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To: Naysayers, namecallers, wankers and other haters up above:
You're wrong. The question I raised goes to the heart of what CY is trying to do here.
There has been a lot of complaint at this and other right-leaning sites about the bias and loose reporting of the "MSM." The blogosphere has been suggested as the antidote, the future of reporting. To that end, CY has spent what I'm assuming are countless hours emailing people and tracking down facts to correct shoddy reporting. He then presents the corrected facts here.
That work seems to me to be undone when raw speculation (and let's be honest: biased speculation, because it puts only the most anti-Beauchamp interpretation on things) is posted side-by-side with factual reportage. At least newspapers have a section labeled "Op/Ed," so you presumably know what you're getting there.
Is this the brave new world of reporting that we're told the Internet will bring to us? Isn't this further blurring the distinction between fact and fancy?
Also: Beauchamp has not issued a statement denouncing pedophilia. Can we assume from his silence that he is a pedophile?
Posted by: nunaim at September 13, 2007 08:39 AM (it+lH)
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No. As of now there is no reason to believe that he is a pedophile. Your logic it quite poor.
Posted by: rbnyc at September 13, 2007 09:39 AM (3OWLF)
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Hmmmm.
@ nunaim
Completely wrong there, but nice hysteria. It suits.
*shrug* the simple fact is that TNR went out on a limb over Beauchamp and now have nothing. That is an essential fact. And because of that TNR needs a positive defense that requires Beauchamp's active involvement. That Beauchamp is handling TNR with a 20' pole is clearly indicative that Beauchamp has learned that exaggerating doesn't come without cost.
Posted by: memomachine at September 13, 2007 11:11 AM (3pvQO)
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Hmmmm
Hmmmm
Hmmmm?
*shrug*
*pick nose*
*belch quietly*
*scratch butt*
It's a sad world when a call for consistency, transparency and clarity are mistaken for hysteria.
Posted by: nunaim at September 13, 2007 07:33 PM (22/Qe)
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nunaim, most people with functional frontal lobes can tell the difference between what TNR attempted to do and what CY is attempting to do.
Why can't you?
Posted by: C-C-G at September 13, 2007 07:41 PM (lo4eE)
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It's a sad world when a call for consistency, transparency and clarity are mistaken for hysteria.
Perhaps you should have done that instead of whatever it was you were attempting. The only way things could be any clearer, more transparent or consistent would be for STB to do an in depth interview to clear his name.
He's not interested. What more do you need to know?
Posted by: Pablo at September 13, 2007 09:23 PM (yTndK)
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Anga2010 Said:
Great applause and celebrations on the left side of the street for his heroic truth-telling-to-power ensues.
Aren't you forgetting the book deal and possible movie deal? I mean, that's what this has been about all along isn't it?
Sorry, blatant speculation there. Is that allowed?
Posted by: Dougie_Pundit at September 14, 2007 12:21 PM (9q1Ch)
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September 11, 2007
September 10, 2007
At What Price?
Is there any way for us to know just how much
The New York Times charged MoveOn.org for their full page "
General Betray Us" advertisement today? Did they pay full price, or did they get a special, reduced rate?
I'd like to know if advertising rates of the New York Times are determined by the political message taking up the ad space, and whether or not a discrepancy in such rates, if one exists, is something that they owe it to their readers to disclose.
Update: According to Jake Tapper at ABCNews, the ad cost MoveOn.org approximately $65,000, running in the "A" section of the paper.
And while I don't claim to understand the intricacies of New York Times advertising sales, their own rate card (PDF) seems rather specific that Advocacy ads, which the MoveOn.org ad most clearly was, are sold at $167,157 for a full-page, full-price nationwide ad.
If Tapper's numbers are correct, MoveOn.org paid just 38.89% of a full-cost, nationwide ad, or a 61.11% discount off of a full-rate ad. While I'm fairly certain that nobody pays "sticker" prices, 61% off seems a rather sweet deal.
Note: For those who can, I'd appreciate it.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I am no expert on these issues, but I wonder if an advertising fee below market rates could be construed as a contribution to the MoveOn.org PAC and therefore require reporting to the FEC.
I doubt that the NYT would give a discounted rate even though I have no doubt that they probably fully subscribe to the sentiment behind the MoveOn ad.
Posted by: Terry at September 10, 2007 04:41 PM (M7kiy)
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Did they pay full price, or did they get a special, reduced rate?
Is this question based on any factual information at all, or is it just pot-stirring?
Posted by: nunaim at September 10, 2007 04:41 PM (22/Qe)
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An ABC article linked from Drudge says that the quislings paid $65,000 for the ad.
Posted by: wolfwalker at September 10, 2007 05:42 PM (ecQz3)
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Would it surprise anyone if the Times paid MoveOn for the ad?
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at September 10, 2007 06:43 PM (Lgw9b)
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To the NY
Times, all advertisers are equal, but some are more equal than others.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 10, 2007 09:10 PM (viASe)
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You just cracked the big story, the New York Times is liberal and favors liberal organizations and liberal individuals!
In all seriousness, cheap shots from either sides don't do us any good at this point, but I will say the right has made their fair share of cheap shots over the years so I'm not going to break out the violin anytime over this ad and shed any tears. Did New York Times show favortism? Who cares?
The bottom line is the majority of Americans simply do not trust this administration based on their record, so reports that have ties to it lack any serious credibility to a majority of Americans.
Don't you love all these lingo terms? "The Surge!" Sounds like an energy drink!
You can occupy another man's country with 10 billion troops, but you will never win their hearts and minds. Would that work here in the USA, if we were occupied? More troops?
Posted by: John Bryan at September 10, 2007 09:12 PM (yGOyP)
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No one ever pays the rate card.
Well, let me rephrase that. Only idiots pay the full rate card. It's like the price of a hotel room that is always printed on a piece of paper behind the door in your room. The 'rack rate' is always some ridiculous figure well beyond what you paid. Same with newspaper rates.
Would be interesting to see how much others paid.
Posted by: Andrew Leyden at September 10, 2007 09:15 PM (iW9O0)
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If MoveOn got a discount, it's more likely because newspapers are dying and desperate for income.
Posted by: yk at September 10, 2007 09:16 PM (XCeMS)
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I don't know John, but it did work in Germany and Japan...
Americans do trust their generals though. Tough. Congress in the same poll has the confidence of twelve percent - is that the Americans you are speaking for?
Posted by: Kathy at September 10, 2007 09:18 PM (W8PQG)
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Andrew Leyden is correct. The rate card is the first offer which you can pay less than half of, if you play your cards right.
I will add a +1 to his "Only an idiot pays the full rate card." You guys are making much ado about nothing.
Posted by: Santiago at September 10, 2007 09:19 PM (euKEY)
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"You can occupy another man's country with 10 billion troops, but you will never win their hearts and minds. Would that work here in the USA, if we were occupied? More troops?"
Pretty funny these lefties how they can spout empty simplistic platitudes with no connection to the situation under consideration. Just like their brains, disconnected from reality.
As for the NYT, you would think there might be one or two grown ups hanging around the editorial board who would view this add with the disdain such juvenile drivel deserves.
Posted by: ligneus at September 10, 2007 09:21 PM (+9a5P)
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Wow, John Bryan, that's some surge! 10 BILLION troops? For you're family's sake, I hope you work with your hands.
Posted by: ecs at September 10, 2007 09:52 PM (8kYDS)
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Wow, John Bryan, that's some surge! 10 BILLION troops? For you're family's sake, I hope you work with your hands.
Posted by: ecs at September 10, 2007 09:52 PM (8kYDS)
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But, he's right:
Those Washington State radio guys were (what? punished? - fined? - I don't remember exactly what) for advocating on-air for a cause - it was ruled a contribution.
So, how would a NYT discount NOT be the same?
Posted by: bobby B at September 10, 2007 10:03 PM (/0mBV)
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When it's among friendly liberals, it's not called a discount it's regarded as an incentive to defeat the enemy: conservatives.
Posted by: Schratboy at September 10, 2007 10:15 PM (u55iz)
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Isn't it fun when you can not discuss the real issue when men and women are dying and write about ad fees? What a blogger, you get right to the issue!
Posted by: patco13 at September 10, 2007 10:29 PM (A+/ko)
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Isn't it fun, patco13, when you and Moveon.org can ignore the fact that "the issue" was discussed today, in full view of tens of millions of Americans, and YOU can pretend it wasn't???
Isn't it fun, patco13, when you can ignore the libel printed in the NYT attacking Petraeus's patriotism?
Isn't that what you clowns complain about all the time?
And isn't it curious, patco13, that the left bleats about "free speech" and loss of civil liberties, and yet can print such libelous, mindless trash in a formerly well-regarded nationalnewspaper now in a death spiral?
Posted by: fulldroolcup at September 10, 2007 10:41 PM (3MdJC)
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[ligneus at September 10, 2007 09:21 PM]
Ten billion troops in Iraq translates to one trooper every 42 feet in all directions from border to border. Considering that and knowing our troops, I don't think we'd be overly concerned with winning hearts and minds while outnumbering the country's population 400 to 1. The big concern would be where to stack all the soccer balls. Syria, maybe?
Posted by: Dusty at September 10, 2007 10:42 PM (1Lzs1)
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Don't ya love how the lefties try (and in some cases) succeed in changing the topic
away from something that sure looks to a non-newspaperman like me like (gasp)
favoritism?
Imagine the lefty furor if it was discovered that FoxNews charged, say, The Heritage Foundation less for a 60-second ad than they charged MoveOn!
Posted by: C-C-G at September 10, 2007 10:46 PM (viASe)
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The issue is an ad discribing a four star General of the US Army as a liar by a group of insurgents financed by George Soros and The New York Times,an American newspaper, running the ad at any price. The discount if true is a declaration of support for MO.org.
Posted by: Clyde Eagle at September 10, 2007 10:46 PM (kRYEo)
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"The big concern would be where to stack all the soccer balls."
That has to be the line of the night....
Posted by: notropis at September 10, 2007 10:52 PM (rWATM)
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I'm guessing it wouldn't be nearly as inexpensive to smear an upstanding Democrat leader. Oh. Wait. There are no upstanding Democrat leaders.
Posted by: Lone Ranger at September 10, 2007 10:53 PM (zgXhM)
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What a waste of $65000.00
Posted by: Riteaidbob at September 10, 2007 11:06 PM (7FgWm)
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And all that after some media outlets refused to run ads and commercials by a group advocating for our continued presence and mission in Iraq.
It is fine with me that the NY Times runs MoveOn's ad. It's fine with me if they deeply discounted that ad.
But, when they try to point out their impartiality as
journalists and someone points out that maybe that's not entirely supported by their actions, then the NY Times has very little fig leaf remaining to hide behind.
As a capitalist, I don't care if NY Times gives MoveOn a whole page for free. Just expect some questions and ridicule from some quarters.
And I wonder how the NY Times shareholders feel about them deeply discounting ad rates in favor of some groups, while share price has dropped from near $50 to about $21 in the last five years?
Posted by: John in CA at September 10, 2007 11:09 PM (PQVEt)
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Most newspapers have general advertising rates, national rates, and contract rates, which are considerably lower. If Moveon.org is a contract advertiser, they would get a much reduced rate. Contract advertisers are normally required to run a minimum amount of lineage on a per day, per week or per month basis. I don't read the NYT, so I don't know if they run ads on a regular basis or not. The greater the lineage, lower the rate.
Posted by: Sara at September 10, 2007 11:15 PM (hGL+y)
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You can offer discounts to anyone - but you have to offer the same discounts to everyone. I would assume it is the same for publishing as it is for wholesale.
For example - I can give you different discounts per the quantity you buy. It gets further complicated if I have a special going on (buy today and save!) So, it is easy to manipulate the system. However, theoretically, once I set up a rate, I have to offer it to anyone who comes in and qualifies for quantity and time frame. I can't just sell my product cheaper to whites than to blacks ...or cheaper to big stores who are purchasing in the SAME quantities/time frame as the little ones.
Also as in hotel rooms, you can offer different rates to different groups. Example, AAA, Government, Senior's etc.
But what is illegal is if you are offering deals to one group and refusing them to another group based on an arbitrary "I like them better".
For example, I can not offer quantites of X purchased before X to one group cheaper than another just cause I like one better than the other.
It would be impossible to prove on a one/two time basis - but a pattern would be illegal.
Posted by: Becky at September 10, 2007 11:20 PM (CTxe6)
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My guess is MoveOn.org is not Macy's, Bloomingdales or Sacks -- regular big ticket advertisers, who either on their on or in conjunction with the brands they're marketing, are regular full-page ad buyers and should be able to garner the lowest rates for both full page ads, spot color or full color. It's unlikely MoveOn would do more than one ad a year like this, which is why the ad has become so publicized.
The question then becomes -- if the Times really did give MoveOn a discount they wouldn't normally deserve -- did their rate come in at equal or lower than the cost the Times' regular full-page advertisers are paying for their retail sales rate. If that was the case, the folks at Federated or one of the other big ad buyers might be able to play a little hardball with the paper for the upcoming Christmas shopping season.
Posted by: John at September 10, 2007 11:27 PM (NpMC3)
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Suckers would only pay the asking price on newspapers, especially one that costs that much. However, I have never seen a 61% savings on a one-time ad buy. I have seen up to 50% in extreme cases, but that is when the media entity was desperate to fill a spot that had been previously reserved, then had fallen through.
It also depends on how many ads MoveOn.org has over the course of their contract with the NYT, if any. If you, as an advertiser, will promise to run, say 2000 column inches over the course of a year, the advertiser will get a reduced rate on column inches.
My guess is that the NYT sales rep saw the $65,000 offer was a lot better than the $0 it would have gotten for running an ad to promote NYT products or putting in actual news. The sales rep probably gets some sort of big commission out of this ad purchase. However, MO.org probably should have received no more than a 40% discount on the ad, IMO.
As for bobby B's comment about the NYT being fined for this, or considered a contribution, it won't happen. The people on the radio were punished because the airwaves are owned by the public, according to FCC rules. Newspapers are considered private entities, which is why newspapers have more freedom when it comes to this sort of thing. We can't go to the FCC and invoke the Fairness Doctrine and try to get a $65,000 ad to refute the ad. If the laws have changes, please let me know. My Communications Law class was 10 years ago.
That is why, when libs try to "Hush Rush" with the Fairness Doctrine, they might actually do it if libs and Dems control the White House and Congress. Rush has explained this on his show, and I won't go into it here.
I find the ad abhorrent, and I hope the NYT shows better judgment next time this happens (probably not). They have a right of refusing to run the ad as well as a right to run an ad. I'm not here to defend the NYT on this particular issue; just to give some insight into media buying and media laws.
Posted by: MoRepublican at September 10, 2007 11:40 PM (efGom)
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It hasn't hit the MSM yet, but the little dears also defaced the Vietnam Memorial with oil Friday night, permanently damaging the granite slabs. Some of the names have been rendered illegible.
The National Park Service tried to pressure-wash the stuff off today, but by the time they learned about it and came up with the plan it had sunk into the granite. Experts are saying that if steam doesn't lift it, removing the panels and steaming them in a horizontal position might help.
They also trashed the nurses' memorial statue. They couldn't get to the Three Soldiers (it's surrounded by thornbushes) but they tried.
We can sure be grateful for Markos's contribution to public discourse, and for the inspiration he is to his barbarian hordes. Although there's no proof that the vandals were inspired by him and not one of Soros's other villainous cat's paws like the HuffPo or DU.
Posted by: Kevin R.C. 'Hognose' O'Brien at September 10, 2007 11:51 PM (LkeNv)
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Mo - great info. But in this case, I don't think it would matter if they are a private co or not. The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) insists that any deal that you make with one customer must be offered to all like customers.
It would be difficult to prove, for the reasons that you explained. But, given that the discount is so extreme, I can't help thinking that one could make the case that it was indeed a contribution.
Posted by: Becky at September 10, 2007 11:59 PM (CTxe6)
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Mo is correct - newspapers are a special case. They have to comply with employment laws, environmental laws, criminal laws, etc., but anything involving the content of what they publish is beyond most regulation.
Advertising enjoys less protection than unpaid content (what is loosely described as "news" in the vernacular), but the only recourse is generally the courts, using the libel laws. NYT v Sullivan set the standard fairly high even for advertising.
As far as rates go, newspapers can charge pretty much what they want. True, if large retail advertisers get wind of someone getting an undeserved discount it helps their own negotiating strength. In the NYT's case, though, their ad lineage and revenues are already under pressure, and getting even a discount rate for an extra page of advertising can seem worth whatever risk it runs to a paper in that position.
Suing newspapers has never been a dependably profitable occupation, no matter what the cause.
Posted by: Jim Addison at September 11, 2007 12:23 AM (uqc7t)
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John, you are correct so far as it goes. However, a contract advertiser may only contract for say a small 1x3 or 2x5 ad that runs regularly and make the big buy once a year or less. Wouldn't matter, if they are under the contract rate, they get that rate for the big or small. Also, there are different rate cards for retail, classified, display and specialty sections that might include things like an entire section devoted to "back to school," or "Valentines, as examples.
The ad today most likely falls under the Display rate card. These rate cards (again at most newspapers) are broken down even further into: general rates, contract rates, national rates, and if the paper puts out area/targeted editions, they might have a rate based on say a single edition to one of the boroughs, targeted to those residents.
Posted by: Sara at September 11, 2007 12:25 AM (hGL+y)
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I doubt someone from Moveon actually placed the ad. Does anyone know if they have a PR firm, because if they do, that PR/advertising firm most likely placed the ad as an agent for their client. If that is the case, the PR/advertising firm would be the contract advertiser at the Times and may have dozens of accounts they manage, all of which would give them a pretty deep discount. An advertising firm that handled several big Times' advertisers would have mucho clout with the newspaper.
Posted by: Sara at September 11, 2007 12:33 AM (hGL+y)
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I've been a media buyer for a small ad agency for the last year. I never pay rate card for half or full page, other than in certain special supplements to magazine issues. 60% off is a sweet deal, but not unprecedented, though. I've been able to get that discount for clients as well, on a number of occasions.
Print outlets can and do have different ad price structures for different clients. It's not illegal in the slightest.
Posted by: Jason Van Steenwyk at September 11, 2007 12:48 AM (ojIab)
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The Times ought to give them more low cost space.
I can't think of a better way to get them to show their true colors and provide support for the Republicans.
It's a toofer.
Posted by: M. Simon at September 11, 2007 01:34 AM (aciBF)
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Kathy - Many of the top U.S. military generals
were against this war,
from the beginning - that's why Rumsfeld fired so many of them.
Even those who supported it opposed the way that Bush and Rumsfeld managed the war.
So if we had "trusted our generals" earlier, perhaps the disasters of the past few years could have been averted.
And to compare Germany and Japan to Iraq is consistent with the geopolitical philosophy of
liberal internationalism. It is based upon a
flawed, left-wing utopian vision. Socialism doesn't work, whether it's practiced within our borders, or outside of them.
Posted by: Aakash at September 11, 2007 03:01 AM (ggjm8)
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Actually, M. Simon is only partially right. There are other benefits in addition to showing true colors and helping Republicans.
The more semi-freebies that Putz Sulzberger gives to such 'causes,' the worse it gets for NYT's bottom line, and the more its market share and stock value continue to erode. (But hey, it takes real acumen to run an institution like the NYT into the ground.)
So that's what...a threefer? fourfer?
Posted by: Clioman at September 11, 2007 06:00 AM (CNAh+)
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It should be seen as a violation of compaign contribution reporting laws, but Bush is too gutless to act, just like he will be too gutless to put Kusinich behind bars for treason.
Posted by: Spartacus at September 11, 2007 07:12 AM (+jnQm)
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This is a clear example of political prejudice cutting into corporate profitability. I smell a shareholder suit in the making.
chsw
Posted by: chsw at September 11, 2007 07:35 AM (WdHqZ)
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It is unfortunate that dueling is now illegal; sure some lives were lost too soon, but it had a tendency to keep discourse within some reasonable bounds. For example, would that personage Landros have been more circumspect in his attempt to smear Petraeus if the good General could have called him out to the dew-pearled lawns of the Mall for an early morning shootout, and, when finished, have gone looking for Soros?
Posted by: Fred Beloit at September 11, 2007 08:15 AM (Z7x7c)
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so the right developed and entire cable news network and a vast array of a.m. talk show hosts for the sole purpose of maligning a sitting president over a blow job, but this one ad is just way too far for the left? just another example of the faux controversialism so typical of the right.
Posted by: english teacher at September 11, 2007 08:46 AM (mdNLU)
42
Well, it's obvious that they don't teach critical thinking in English classes anymore, but I'm surprised that they apparently also no longer teach spelling or capitalization.
Posted by: notropis at September 11, 2007 09:17 AM (cP1DU)
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There's a lot of misinformation posted about to what extent newspaper space rates are negotiable. They generally aren't. While broadcast rate cards are just the starting point for haggling and negotiation, newspapers generally stick to rate card rates, subject to a whole set of standard discounts newspapers offer – 15% commission for advertising agencies, frequency discounts (and yes, those can be earned by running a whole bunch of small, relatively cheap placeholder ads), local-advertiser discounts, print-ready discounts, etc. But the inflexibility of newspaper space rates suggests that either someone at the Times stupidly charged the wrong category's set of rates (e.g., local retail instead of national advocacy) or that the paper's subsidization of moveone.org is even more egregious.
Posted by: bruce Goldman at September 11, 2007 09:22 AM (bwelC)
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I'm afraid the capless teacher of English has purposefully misunderstood. It was never really about the BJ. It was always about perjury.
Posted by: Fred Beloit at September 11, 2007 09:27 AM (Z7x7c)
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Actually Aakash, Rumsfeld fired so many senior officers because he was tasked with cleaning up the Pentagon. Which as we all know, was a ridiculous mess of bureaucrats, and senior officers getting their tickets punched before they went private. Their mindset over there was completely cold war, and had been that way for some time. While they made some major mistakes in the run up to, and during the war, (name one war we've been involved in that did not have any), the Administration was spot on in their ideas for streamlining the Pentagon, and our military. They, of course, fought him every step of the way with targeted leaks, and innuendo. Hell Rumsfeld started his house cleaning before 9/11, but it did not start getting a lot of attention until we kicked off the Afganistan/Iraq adventures. I've always been amazed that the leftists in this country, who generally have little use for the military, will take anything said by military members as holy writ, if it fits they way they want things to be. Yet they will do or say anything to discredit a very credible military member, if his report does not fit their narrative.
Posted by: Brad at September 11, 2007 10:27 AM (tznHw)
46
John B -- Would occupation work in the U.S.? It did.
Or maybe I've just missed the ongoing insurgency in South Carolina, etc.
Posted by: TheProudDuck at September 11, 2007 12:22 PM (0V2xx)
47
The question isn't how much MoveOn paid. It's why the Times
ran the ad in the first place.
Posted by: km at September 11, 2007 12:41 PM (SxR3N)
48
Kathy - Many of the top U.S. military generals were against this war, from the beginning - that's why Rumsfeld fired so many of them.
Even those who supported it opposed the way that Bush and Rumsfeld managed the war.
Posted by: Aakash at September 11, 2007 03:01 AM
--------------
Keep drinking that liberal kool ade!
Posted by: veritas at September 11, 2007 01:29 PM (NEiv1)
49
Not so surprising that the liberal liars at the NYT would be eager to give a discount to move on. They need something to steal the thunder from the recent surge success reports.
Posted by: deathstar at September 11, 2007 03:53 PM (gkobM)
50
"The bottom line is the majority of Americans simply do not trust this administration based on their record, so reports that have ties to it lack any serious credibility to a majority of Americans.'
And that lack of trust has been created and is promoted by the left wing media!!
Posted by: Horny Toad at September 11, 2007 11:55 PM (tITNm)
51
Aakash, on this board, and on several others where you post, your comments seem to conform more to the leftists thought processes, than they do to the conservatives. I apologize if my use of the old axiom, "if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck", mislabeled your political affiliations. As far as Clancy vs Perle is concerned, that was because of some rather uncharitable comments made by Perle about one General in particular, and not the military as a whole. I don't recall if the General was Powell, or Franks, but I do remember the incident. I do know that Clancy had nothing but respect for Rumsfeld, and what he was trying to do. Unfortunately for Rumsfeld, he was fought every step of the way by the bureaucrats in the Pentagon/DoD.
Posted by: Brad at September 12, 2007 06:29 AM (tznHw)
52
The final bill could be $0.00. The NYT Chief Financial Officer (CFO) can let the account receivable age over 120 days, continue to send out statements, and finally the CFO can write-off a portion or all of the debt deemed to be uncollectible.
Posted by: Tarawa at September 12, 2007 11:25 AM (86RGg)
53
So, what exactly is the issue here? That the NYT might have maybe kinda sort gave MoveOn a discount (although you have done nothing to prove that, and more likely they did not)? Are you so terrified of facts on the ground that you'll fill an entire page with empty supposition?
And about the NYT ad, apart from calling Patraeus "Betray Us", the ad provided a great deal of factual support for that assessment, which no doubt none of you read. Have a look at that. Do any of you contest the factual claims made in the ad? Did MoveOn lie? Or did they just reach a different conclusion than you did?
Finally, regarding the Patraeus/Betray Us pun, consider this. As the MoveOn ad and a mountain of written testimony certifies, Patraeus has been dramatically, fundamentally wrong about most every assessment he's yet provided about Iraq since 2004. Everyone knew as far back as February that in September he was going to address Congress and say that the surge is a success. Most Americans do not believe him. That is, we feel that he is not being truthful. Now, if your job is to protect the US people and Constitution, but instead you distort the truth to serve a purely partisan agenda that is damaging the country on many levels, can you not see how that could be regarded as betrayal?
Posted by: Paul at September 12, 2007 11:42 AM (+TIo+)
54
I did some checking.
In 2004, the Web browser Firefox got 2,500 people to donate $30 each for a full-page ad in the Times – $75,000.
http://news.com.com/Firefox+smashes+funding+target/2100-1032_3-5422785.html
Posted by: Michael Marizco at September 12, 2007 12:08 PM (YLUvH)
55
Maybe for once, you slobbering morons could actually contact someone at the NYT and get them on record about this.
Maybe, but not likely, since it's more fun to sit here in your own little pity party (teh left is so mean to da general, boo hoo)
Posted by: Woody at September 12, 2007 12:27 PM (DCUPs)
56
I wonder if conservatives could buy enough NYT stock to force the sacking of the editors....
Posted by: Brad Jensen at September 12, 2007 12:40 PM (SK0po)
57
This is not unprecedented - I was able to get a 55% discount on ad rates for a full page ad, and later found out that I could have gotten over 60% (the publisher was a bit desperate), or 65% for paying immediately.
Posted by: Dave at September 12, 2007 02:27 PM (4ylWZ)
58
NOBODY PAYS RATE CARD
As a former ad exec at a newspaper and later as a contracted media buyer dealing with national accounts, I can attest that this isn't that much out of the ordinary.
Newspapers are hurting and bundled deals are extremely common. When I was working for the Sacramento Bee it was common to throw in a 'freebie' in the normal ROP (run of press) section when clients signed up for big advertising plans online or in the paper.
Furthermore, advertising and editorial are MORTAL ENEMIES in most papers. At the Bee they were on completely different floors and if you were an ad guy you didn't talk with the ed folks or vice versa. In 95% of all papers the ad and editorial divisions are separate all the way up to the publisher. No publisher, especially at a large paper like the NYT is going to care about a pathetic sum like $100k.
This is a non-story. Get over it and do some research next time before you open your mouth.
Posted by: dkellogg at September 12, 2007 03:00 PM (O5q6Q)
59
And while I don't claim to understand the intricacies of New York Times advertising sales...
...I will proceed to talk about it anyway as if I do.
Posted by: Xanthippas at September 12, 2007 03:04 PM (018Z+)
60
Aakash, let's to keep the Greenwald-length comments to a minimum, okay? Just write a blog entry, and drop in a link.
And while I appreciate you put into this effort, you destroyed your credibility (and I quit reading) when you cited Capitol Hill Blue for your first link. I take it you are not aware that this guy has been
making up stories, quotes, and sources for 20 years?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 12, 2007 07:48 PM (HcgFD)
61
I wonder if conservatives could buy enough NYT stock to force the sacking of the editors....
Not likely. As I understand it, the NYT shares are set up with two classes of shares. The important shares, the voting shares I believe, are closely held by the Sulzberger family and cronies. Or something like that. Anyway, there won't be any shareholder revolts by the common shareholder.
There has been some noise made by some of NYT institutional shareholders, like one of the investment houses, maybe Goldman-Sachs. Maybe some one like that could force some changes in the NYT boardroom. But not you and me buying a hundred shares.
Posted by: John in CA at September 12, 2007 08:39 PM (PQVEt)
62
Is it just me, or does Aakash bear a resemblance to your garden-variety Ron Paul supporter?
Posted by: C-C-G at September 12, 2007 09:13 PM (lo4eE)
63
I had preferred not to post any more comments in this thread, but I wanted to respond to Brad's personal remarks. I probably won't be saying anything else here, as part of that dialogue (even if he does).
And I linked to only two
CHB pieces... the same information was also in a variety of other sources; it was general knowledge at the time. As I noted in my first response to Brad and 'veritas' above, even pro-war conservative publications, such as
National Review, pointed out the same thing.
NR editor Rich Lowry
said that this type of divide, between the military and civilian national leadership, "is typical in wartime."
Posted by: Aakash at September 12, 2007 09:23 PM (ggjm8)
64
it was general knowledge at the time.
At one time, it was "general knowledge" that the sun went around the earth.
Does that mean that it was, or is, true?
Posted by: C-C-G at September 12, 2007 10:39 PM (lo4eE)
65
Well, Bob, the NY Post picked up your story, and apparently they see something unusual about the deep discount, as well (and they ought to know something about how newspaper advertising pricing works, being in that business and all).
http://www.nypost.com/seven/09132007/news/nationalnews/times_gives_lefties_a_hefty_di.htm
Kudos!
Posted by: notropis at September 13, 2007 10:33 AM (cP1DU)
66
To those critical of GEN Patraeus - do your research on BOTH sides of the issue. He is an honorable man receiving great reviews from those who matter - the troops on the ground and the Iraqis starting to see results of his change in the US philosophy.
As for the liberal arguments, I often have a similar argument with colleagues on various issues relating to the Iraq War, Fox News, etc. But interestingly enough when I challenge them on their criticism of Fox by asking them if they actually watch it, they almost without exception say they don't waste their time. So how can their opinions be informed? Did they ever learn critical thinking? Why do you think Fox exists? It is because it reflects the opinions of a large portion of Americans who have a right to their own opinions whether you like it or not. I make an effort to watch all the networks and read all the News websites. So who knows better, someone who only watches what they agree with? Or a politician fed his opinions by his party and 20ish staffers hired for things other than their political acumen or a 4 Star career military officer? Or journalists who go to Iraq but might as well be in the US since they sit in the green zone and phone it in? Read Michael Yon and blogs from those actually on the ground. The liberal left says I am an illiterate moron because I disagree with them. I will put my experience and education against any of them. I am a retired Army Officer, a combat veteran with a disability that makes every day hurt, a son in EOD (Bomb disposal for you civilians) and a daughter in the Intel community. I speak several languages besides English, have a Master's in political science and I lived/served overseas in many places for over a dozen years...By now you might have guessed I am a supporter of the Iraq war and the Bush administration. Mistakes - some big ones - were made, but the overall goals are good and important. You are entitled to your opinion, but bring facts to the table, not things that were "common knowledge" and then we can dance.
Posted by: GraySix at September 13, 2007 02:19 PM (Q6uje)
67
I've never in my life 86yr's read so much just per CRAP... What the hell do you people do to make a living ... Seems like you are all on shooting this verbal junk... Get real ,, there's a war on whether you like ity or not ....
Posted by: Tom at September 13, 2007 04:55 PM (RaG9k)
68
For reasons implied above, this is likely going to be my final comment post, in this discussion thread.
The divide that existed, in the run-up to this war, between the uniformed military officials (in the Pentagon and State Department) vs. the civilian leadership,
is "factual" - I provided some reference links above, but this is something that was recognized, and reported on, by all sides,
including the supporters of the Iraq war... It was they, in fact, who expressed concern that the pressure from the Joint Chiefs of Staff and military leadership would dissuade President Bush from going to war against Iraq. Even many of the generals who didn't oppose going to war against Iraq were opposed to the war plans being proposed by Rumsfeld and Wolfowtiz.
War hawk Eliot Cohen wrote
an entire book about this schism [from a historical perspective - but also meant to relate to the contemporary situation], and the two leading pro-war magazines on the Right,
National Review and the
Weekly Standard,
discussed this divide as
well, while repeating the old claim that:
"War is too important to be left to the generals."
Regarding prior dialogues: As a life-long activist for the Right, and a nationally recognized leader
in the Republican Party (and someone who has been working to directly support our current servicemembers and veterans), I frame my arguments from a traditionalist conservative perspective. The current and former U.S. military leaders I have cited, in my blog entries and comment posts about this topic, are also conservatives; some of them served in the administrations of
Ronald Reagan and
George Herbert Walker Bush, and several are among those who presidential candidate George W. Bush cited, as his strong supporters, in his first run for the White House.
My involvement in the conservative & GOP movements - at both the local and national levels - is one reason I nearly had a coronary when seeing the "liberal" comments from Brad and 'veritas' above, and posted that lengthy response.
If we are going to do name-calling - then please, please,
please don't use that one!
Posted by: Aakash at September 13, 2007 05:15 PM (0UOO4)
69
So there's a divide between "military and civilian leaders." In the words of my Critical Thinking Professor: So what? Wouldn't you expect there to be? Shouldn't there be? Isn't that why the military is under a civilian Secretary and reports to the civilian leadership of the Executive and Legislative branches? If I were President, and had a monumental decision to make, such as going to war, I would certainly hope there was a divide, and people were willing to make their opinions known.
As far as bragging about your credentials, I ask again: So what? Jimmy Carter was a State Governor and President and he's wrong about everything, including how dangerous the average cottontailed bunny is.
So, somebody wrote a book? Again: So what? Just because a book is written, we should read it and ooh and aaw over how intelligent the author is?
As far as framing your arguments? You didn't make any, you simply posted a screen and a half of name-dropping, trying to look intelligent and "connected."
Twice you said you wouldn't post again - and then did. Like Ozzy's 20th "Retirement Tour" I'll wait breathlessly for your next post...
Robert
Posted by: Robert at September 14, 2007 03:52 AM (vrDK+)
70
A big waste of time to complain about some group that advocates anti-war! This is a distraction from the terrible weeks the GOP had when Larry Craig, David Vitter, Karl Rove, ALberto Gonzales, Tony Snow, Vice President Cheney, and the president had! This something that comes from Jake Tapper and John Stossel (two right wing pundits) who make a heyday of misinforming the country about a "special discount"! When it reached Murdoch's New York Post, then the Fox News memo and then to Limbaugh, John Gibson, O'Reilly and Hannity! C'mon now I am sick of this partisan distracting cause a "2/3 of Americans" want the war to be over! Do what Ron Paul says and stay out of these other countries!
Posted by: Brian Beach at September 14, 2007 08:00 AM (WBI8e)
71
Sean Hannity calls his radio show the "stop Hillary Express" What's the value of his illegal campaign contributions at 3 hours a day/ 5 days a week?
Posted by: Frank Provasek at September 16, 2007 12:18 AM (NJ2Km)
72
I guess by now anybody who can use their brains sees that any other group who meets the same criteria as MoveOn met, can get the same rates or maybe even lower rates.
This turns out to be another far right attack based on hysteria and not facts.
Posted by: WDRussell at September 16, 2007 09:12 AM (6yXNf)
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That Time of the Year
Last summer or early last fall (I'm too lazy to look which at the moment), I had a week-long fundraising effort here at
Confederate Yankee, where readers were kind enough to provide me with enough funds to buy a laptop to replace my aging and dying Dell 733R from which I'd been researching and writing. I was humbled and awed at your outpouring of support.
This year, I'll not be needing any new equipment, and I do't have any particular dire needs that the Lord won't take care of for me. He's granted me everything I need and most of what I want, including something else my wife and I have been wanting for a long time:
As I said, the important things are taken care of.
That said, I'd still like to ask my readers for a couple of bucks, if they can spare it.
I promise I'll put it to good use. Thanks.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:32 AM
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Post contains 165 words, total size 7 kb.
1
Great news! Congrats, Bob!
Posted by: marykatharine at September 10, 2007 09:48 AM (3toqq)
2
Congratualtions to you and your wife.
Relish all the spare time you enjoy now.
Posted by: 1sttofight at September 10, 2007 09:52 AM (T714S)
3
"... This year, I'll not be needing any new equipment ..."
Looks like the equipment you have is working pretty good!
Wishing you and your wife and new baby all the best!
Posted by: John Pennylegion at September 10, 2007 11:45 AM (GHyUE)
Posted by: seawitch at September 10, 2007 11:52 AM (BCDZE)
5
Congrats!
Your next ten-fifteen years are the pinnacle of the human existence in my experience and the greatest test of being a Man. Savor this time, gird yourself for the tests that are to come.
Posted by: DaveW at September 10, 2007 01:43 PM (lrfik)
6
Yup - congratulations!
Enjoy every hour of sleep you get now.
It will become a fond memory
Boy or girl?
Posted by: Timothy S. Carlson at September 10, 2007 02:46 PM (uBBUD)
7
congrats! I know what it is like my wife just gave birth to a little girl wed the 5th. both are healthy and at home.
Posted by: Rich at September 10, 2007 04:22 PM (siQqy)
8
Hey, congrats!
Many blessings to you, the better half, and the new addition.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 10, 2007 07:18 PM (viASe)
9
Congratulations!!!!! Better load up on sleep now, 'cuz you ain't gettin' any after wee one arrives.
Posted by: GradualDazzle at September 10, 2007 07:29 PM (iHegN)
10
Congratulations to you and your wife, Bob.
Posted by: Dusty at September 10, 2007 08:06 PM (1Lzs1)
11
3/23? My wife is a couple of weeks ahead of yours.
Right now we're thanking the Gods for Zofran. (Write it down! Ask for it by name!)
Posted by: Richard Riley at September 10, 2007 10:45 PM (LibFF)
12
Very cool. Start working on your reduced-sleep-training program now...
Posted by: mrkwong at September 10, 2007 11:20 PM (G8Eo0)
13
3/23? Hey, that's my birthday!
If it is a boy, and born on that day, David is a good name.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 10, 2007 11:49 PM (viASe)
14
Excellent!
Congratulations.
Posted by: EW1(SG) at September 11, 2007 09:15 PM (YcNsA)
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High Noon for TNR
I'll ask all of my readers to please check out
Pajamas Media after noon (Eastern U.S.) today [
update: it's up now], and see what you think of my exclusive interview which should be coming online right about then.
In the meantime, Michelle Malkin and her team at Hot Air released a crushing "Vent" today, interviewing Michael Goldfarb, the writer for The Weekly Standard that broke the story with his post, "Fact or Fiction?" on July 18, and also paying a surprise visit to the offices of The New Republic to try to get in to see Franklin Foer.
Watch the whole thing.
All in all, this is going to be a very bad day for Franklin Foer and The New Republic, who by now, just wish this story would go away. What they don't seem to grasp is that at this point, they are the story.
We know that the events Beauchamp wrote about in "Shock Troops" were fabrications, and that has become something of a non-story at this point.
Now, what has become a far more important story is the devious means by which the editorial staff of The New Republic has sought to cover-up their own inadequacies. If they had simply admitted in the beginning that they did not adequately check Beauchamp's stories because they never thought that the husband of a staffer would so boldly and blatantly lie to them, then this would have blown over weeks ago, with minor consequences.
Instead, The New Republic launched an investigation "re-reporting" the story, and tried to justify the unjustifiable with a combination of willful deception and obfuscation. They've attempted to deceive or hide information their readers, fellow journalists, at least one of the experts they claimed supported the veracity of the story, the blogosphere, and the United States Army, in a pathetic attempt to justify a minor incompetence, and in the process, created a significant scandal.
In the end, if TNR owners CanWest Mediaworks hopes to retain any corporate credibility at all, a purge of the defective detectives that make up the editorial staff The New Republic is certainly warranted.
They've run out of second chances.
Update: Read all of my Beauchamp/TNR related coverage here. For those of you who have the means, please consider supporting citizen-journalism (specifically, mine).
Thanks.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:52 AM
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1
Or they could have used the tried and true liberal response when caught flat out lying,
HEY, WE WERE JUST KIDDING, IT WAS A JOKE.
YOU NEOCONS ARE JUST TOO STUPID TO GET IT.
Semper Fi
Posted by: 1sttofight at September 10, 2007 09:46 AM (T714S)
2
I have said it before and I'll say it again, TNR doesn't need to come clean, fire people, or do any of the things they rightly should do. They know who their audience is and their audience doesn't care one bit about truth. They care about the narrative. So TNR and their audience are in scynch here. That's all that matters to them.
Posted by: T.Ferg at September 10, 2007 10:25 AM (2YVh7)
3
Bob -- Kudos to you, Michelle and Michael for staying on TNR's case. By all means keep up the good work.
However, at this point TNR has doubled-down twice in the Beauchamp affair and lost. For anyone who cares to know, it's clear TNR has once again fobbed off agenda-driven fables as insightful truths without fact-checking. Then they went on to lie about their fact-checking, their intended follow-up, and the Army's handling of Beauchamp.
At this point, what more does TNR have to lose? Why not continue to stonewall?
Posted by: huxley at September 10, 2007 11:02 AM (rOvvS)
4
The really sad thing about this whole fiasco is the willingness of TNR to abandon legitimate journalism to propagandize.
What is even sadder is the fact that so many news and information journals are doing the same thing every day of the week.
Posted by: edward cropper at September 10, 2007 11:27 AM (ZxPWQ)
5
Which raises the question -- was American journalism always this bad? Is the only difference now with the internet and blogs that the media get caught like this over and over again?
Posted by: huxley at September 10, 2007 12:10 PM (Qt1f1)
6
Huxley - My best guess would be yes and no. Yes, there were always
some lazy reporters who made up details when getting the real story would have been too much work. In the past, the newspaper-reading public didn't have the tools to catch them, so exactly how many reporters "phoned it in" (or telegraphed it in) over the course of history cannot be known.
And no, not all reporters were like this. Look, for instance, at the WWII reporting. There were always good reporters as well, people taking the time (like Mr. Owens did) to get all the facts and get the story right.
In the end, it boils down to human nature, which never changes. There are heroes and there are zeroes, and there have always been both.
Posted by: Robin Munn at September 10, 2007 12:30 PM (IWzGe)
7
Robin -- I've noticed since I was a teenager that newspaper accounts of events I experienced often got a lot of details wrong in a lazy or careless way.
But I don't remember the "news" news so propagandized as it is today, where editorializing creeps in everywhere and even fabricated evidence like Beauchamp or Rathergate or the Lancet study on Iraqi deaths are used to bolster agendas.
Perhaps I should look back and see.
Posted by: huxley at September 10, 2007 01:00 PM (Qt1f1)
8
I personally think the media has always been this way. Its just the explosion of information technology combined with the radicalization of our political discourse that makes it seem so bad now.
Congrats on the interview CY. You really hammered it home.
In the end it won't matter though. TNR is just a third tier declining rag now. They aren't going to clean this up because their audience doesn't want them to and from what I can tell they have no personal or organizational integrity pushing them to Do the Right Thing. They're just hunkering down waiting for it to go away.
Posted by: DaveW at September 10, 2007 01:39 PM (lrfik)
9
Gentlemen, as a former managing editor of a newspaper, let me assure you that the quality of news reporting has declined measurably over the past 20 years, and most of the blame can be attributed to liberal J-schools, who are turning out agenda-driven graduates as brainwashed as students in a Pakistani madrassa. That is why you see little if any reaction within TNR, as they are convinced that they are telling the truth even when they are lying. They are nothing but brainwashed propagandists. Sickening, really.
Posted by: templar knight at September 10, 2007 04:59 PM (2LEwd)
10
Thanks for weighing in, TK! That's my sense of it too.
Back in the eighties, I was your basic San Francisco leftie. While I was often unhappy with the balance of news coverage, the editorials on the editorial page, and the accounts of what government officials said, I never had the impression that the media itself was foisting outright propaganda disguised as news.
Not that long ago, I think the staffs of most newspapers and magazines would have been deeply ashamed if they were caught pushing a story based on fabricated evidence. That's not true today. Mostly they brass it out, like Rather, Mapes and now Foer.
Posted by: huxley at September 10, 2007 06:53 PM (Qt1f1)
11
Assuming that the comments above are correct, that TNR has no reason to come clean because they are giving their subscribers exactly what they want, what leverage does Bob or anyone else have to get the truth out or to make anyone pay a price?
Posted by: Mark at September 10, 2007 06:59 PM (+45yf)
12
One wonders where the usual lefty suspects are...
Posted by: C-C-G at September 10, 2007 07:24 PM (viASe)
13
>...what leverage does Bob or anyone else have to get the truth out or to make anyone pay a price?
Exactly. I don't see it happening. I enjoy watching Michelle Malkin's ambush attempt in the TNR office and I appreciate Bob's continuing efforts to cut the ground out from underneath TNR, but these people seem shameless.
Rather, Mapes and CBS never apologized or even acknowledged using forged docs on 60 Minutes, why should TNR and Foer apologize for Beauchamp?
Posted by: huxley at September 10, 2007 07:53 PM (Qt1f1)
14
There are still a number of people in the newspaper business who were trained prior to the J-school madrassas, many in positions of authority. The recent outrage in Seattle, I believe it was, where the reporters in the newsroom applauded the resignation of Karl Rove is a case in point. The editor, who was obviously trained at another place and time, took control of the situation. One such as he is rare in the media these days, but these are the ones we appeal to for justice.
Posted by: templar knight at September 10, 2007 09:03 PM (2LEwd)
15
Mark
The price that Bob and others are forcing TNR (CBS, etc.) to pay is very high--trust in the publication. Ultimately that is death--once a majority of readers/viewers believe that the publication can no longer be trusted, fewer will read it and even fewer will risk ridicule citing it.
CBS understood that calculus very well when they dumped Dan and Mary Mapes. TNR clearly does not understand it at all.
Posted by: iconoclast at September 11, 2007 10:41 AM (TzLpv)
16
Templar
Old-school journalists appear to be a dying breed. At least at the major dailies. In ten years that editor will be gone and the newsroom would cheer at an assasination attempt of their politial enemies.
I still don't really understand what is so special about a j-school degree. A college degree would be useful--general knowledge, ability to learn, and abilty to write/speak--but a good english or history degree with science distribution would accomplish that quite nicely. All the rest should be learned via mentoring, training, ojt. Wrong?
Posted by: iconoclast at September 11, 2007 10:46 AM (TzLpv)
17
It is now obvious that the editors at TNR have now teamed up with OJ in the quest for the truth.
A truth that can be found in any mirror.
Posted by: Neo at September 11, 2007 01:07 PM (Yozw9)
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September 07, 2007
Name That Goon
Who...
- ...claims that Democrats in Congress have failed to listen to the will of the American people to stop the Iraq War by surrendering?
- ...claims that we're sacrificing the blood of American soldiers for the greed of corporations?
- ...considers Noam Chomsky one of the West's greatest thinkers?
- ...thinks that the news media are right-wing tools, loyal to an empire-hungry dictator?
- ... still uses the worn-out "no blood for oil" argument?
- ...blames America for global warming?
- ...loathes capitalism, and thinks we are just pawns to a creeping globalism?
Select from:
- Keith Olbermann
- Osama bin Laden
- Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid
- all of the above
The correct answer is...
more...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
Bob, does it sound like OBL is a Kos Kid? Wonder which blogs he visits?
Posted by: CoRev at September 07, 2007 03:19 PM (0U8Ob)
2
Why is it a shame that I correctly identified all three as anti-American?
Heh...
He sure plays to the left in this episode. He even gives a hat tip to Rosie by citing the mythical 650,000 dead Iraqis.
Posted by: Dave at September 07, 2007 03:35 PM (YGWpH)
3
Ha Ha! Osama proves, yet again, that he just doesn't understand his enemies. A terrorist supposed to provoke terror in his enemies, not mirth.
I bet that a lot of Democrats aren't laughing, however.
Posted by: baldilocks at September 07, 2007 04:00 PM (fffpJ)
4
Did Osama just throw his turban into the Democratic ring?
Posted by: N. O'Brain at September 07, 2007 06:30 PM (PmWhP)
5
No, no, it's Olbermann! And we have PROOF !!!
Sorta.
:-)
http://www.exurbanleague.com
Posted by: ExUrbanKevin at September 07, 2007 08:16 PM (dqiZq)
6
"NO NO NO!!! This video was to be released NEXT year, not this year you turbaned moron. You have to stop smoking that fine Afghan hashish once in a while...."
Karl Rove
Posted by: iconoclast at September 07, 2007 10:43 PM (c9S12)
7
How stupid can you people get?
Although in reality it isn't brilliant, some of you might think so if you actually sat and thought about what Bin Laden is trying to do (or at least thinks he's doing).
He knows, of course, that whatever he proposes will be anathema to anyone serious in America.
The current "strategy" pursued by the right wing inflames anti-American sentiment the world round and steeply drives up recruiting numbers for various Islamist terrorist organizations, among which can be counted, yes, Al Qaida.
Thus, by falsely proposing one thing, he thinks he can safely count on Americans to do the other.
The longer the war in Iraq and the more Republican policies are carried out, the more terrorism. It's that simple.
Posted by: David at September 08, 2007 12:14 AM (hpkMZ)
8
how diabolial, David. By supporting the party of appeasment and retreat, OBL is really saying please keep killing and capturing us so he can continue to recruit. So OBL really doesn't want the US out of Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe he really does want us to topple Assad and the mad mullahs of Iran, too!
In related news, OBL's support for radical Imans in Pakistan and related assasination attempts on Mubarak really mean that AQ wants Mubarak to remain in power so terrorist recruiting will continue to flourish.
Now if OBL could just get away from those pesky Predator drones...
Posted by: iconoclast at September 08, 2007 02:41 AM (kp8ov)
9
As all clear thinking people know al Qaeda and other islamonazis could care less about our foreign policy. They have one goal which they state at every opportunity. A worldwide caliphate. Intellectual nitwits like David have such a vicious hatred of our country that it blinds them to the simple truth.
David, go get your dictionary and look up the word caliphate. Maybe, just maybe you'll learn something.
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at September 08, 2007 06:36 AM (Lgw9b)
10
I think bin Laden might have a point. If only to end the war, I'm willing to convert to Islam if you guys are.
Posted by: nunaim at September 08, 2007 09:02 AM (KmhBe)
11
David, please change your name. You are a living insult to Davids everywhere (including me).
Did Hitler go on the air and dare the Allies to keep advancing towards Berlin? Did Mussolini encourage the Allies to march through Italy? Did Hirohito tell the Allies to keep on taking islands on their way to Japan?
OBL broadcast what he did specifically to give talking points to lefties without the will or capability to consider what is happening rationally.
He is doing this because
we are winning. We have Al Qaeda in Iraq on the run, denying them safe havens in some instances mere hours after they set up shop. OBL himself doesn't dare come out into the open for more than a few minutes at a time for fear that a Predator will spot him and a cruise missile will be on its way to his latest cave within minutes. His attempted terror attacks are being thwarted long before they ever come to fruition... in fact, it's been some time since a successful attack occurred outside the Middle East.
If (and I postulate this only for sake of discussion, not because I am accepting it is true) we are helping him recruit, he's clearly scraping the bottom of the barrel with the new recruits he is getting, to judge from their effectiveness. But what do you expect when his forces consider blowing
themselves up to be a measure of success? Not a lot of chance to pass along wisdom to the next recruit there, ya know?
Also, there is the point that if (and, again, I am postulating this only for the sake of discussion, not because I believe it) the war helps his recruiting, what the blazes do you think our retreating would do to his recruiting? He could claim, with some justification, that he had chased
both superpowers away--the Soviets from Afghanistan and America from Iraq. Since people naturally want to be on the winning side, many more would flock to his banner.
Yes, David, please change your name. Harry, as in Harry Reid; or Al, as in Al Gore are good names. But please, don't sully the honorable name of David anymore.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 08, 2007 09:48 AM (viASe)
12
Sounds like a Kos Kid, but that Osama doesn't blame Boosh so much for 9-11, but rather wants credit for it himself.
Kind of interesting that OBL has one more fact correct than the Kos Kidlets.
Posted by: Don Meaker at September 08, 2007 10:17 AM (RXNGp)
13
Did Hitler go on the air and dare the Allies to keep advancing towards Berlin? Did Mussolini encourage the Allies to march through Italy? Did Hirohito tell the Allies to keep on taking islands on their way to Japan?
Did Bush tell the terrorists to "bring it on?"
Oh, wait; he did. And they done brung it.
Posted by: nunaim at September 08, 2007 10:46 AM (KmhBe)
14
So you guys are now using Osama Bin Laden to make your political arguments. Classy.
Posted by: Voice of Reason at September 08, 2007 10:56 AM (K1Emm)
15
Nunaim, was Bush's comment prior to or subsequent to the 9/11 attacks? Or do you even know?
Posted by: C-C-G at September 08, 2007 10:59 AM (viASe)
16
omg, I thought David was being funny. David, please don't tell me that you are that dumb! How do you walk and breathe at the same time.
Do I infer from that misunderstanding that numaim's offer for complete surrender was not a joke either?
Posted by: iconoclast at September 08, 2007 11:41 AM (Duiq8)
17
Having the dubious pleasure of debating nunaim in the past, I'd say that he/she/it would be willing to do anything to avoid armed conflict, including praying five times a day facing Mecca.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 08, 2007 11:43 AM (viASe)
18
Nunaim, was Bush's comment prior to or subsequent to the 9/11 attacks?
Doesn't matter in any way.
Having the dubious pleasure of debating nunaim in the past, I'd say that he/she/it would be willing to do anything to avoid armed conflict, including praying five times a day facing Mecca.
For "debating" insert "being pwned by." Also: you reveal yet again that you can't be bothered to actually read the posts in any given thread where you deign to comment. Break a sweat, will you, and keep up with what people have written, all right?
Posted by: nunaim at September 08, 2007 11:58 AM (KmhBe)
19
I think that whole video was scripted by Adam Gadahn, that Californian turned Muslim Jihadist that has made videos in the past, like the one released last year at this time. The words are that of a former Lefty American; when was the real ObL a Kennedy assassination conspiracy theorist?
Posted by: Tom T B at September 08, 2007 12:43 PM (M7kiy)
20
Nunaim, did you or did you not say that you were willing to convert to Islam to end the war?
And Bush said "Bring it on"
after and
only after the Islamoterrorists had already hit us.
Or do you believe that somehow BushCheneyHalliburtonHitler had something to do with 9/11?
Posted by: C-C-G at September 08, 2007 12:59 PM (viASe)
21
maybe nunaim thinks that Bush made them 'really mad' by telling AQ to bring it on. Otherwise, AQ would not have fought so hard in Iraq and around the world.
It is not often I get to use the word puerile, but it certainly applies to nunaim's comments in this thread.
Posted by: iconoclast at September 08, 2007 01:05 PM (Qaboy)
22
Please, please, please change your name. This is so embarrassing.
Posted by: david e at September 08, 2007 01:39 PM (yMOvg)
23
Nunaim, did you or did you not say that you were willing to convert to Islam to end the war?
Whatever it takes to end the madness.
And Bush said "Bring it on" after and only after the Islamoterrorists had already hit us.
But
before thousands of our troops died in the GWOT, right? I'm certainly not saying that these guys died because he said that, but it
was an astoundingly idiotic thing to say, and one that can only look even more idiotic in hindsight.
Posted by: nunaim at September 08, 2007 02:06 PM (KmhBe)
24
Nunaim, it was
after thousands of our innocent civilians had already died at the hands of these people.
And if you're not saying that it caused loss of life, what the devil is your point? Are you just disagreeing to be disagreeable? Or are you trying to make the very point you're claiming that you're not trying to make?
Posted by: C-C-G at September 08, 2007 02:29 PM (viASe)
25
ok, I get it. nunaim isn't even a follower of Gandhi's satyagraha version of non-violence. In that version, adherents willingly face violence and death rather than change their righteous position. Even Gandhi thought that it was better to fight for the right thing than to hide behind satyagraha, if someone only adopted satyagraha because they were cowardly.
Rather, nunaim is just simply a poltroon--someone who will give up anything and everything just to avoid violence. A person without any concept of honor, duty, sacrifice. A person who would condemn their countrymen to slavery, tyranny, torture, and death because of their cowardice and fear.
Nice! There have been many tyrants who just LOVE people like you over the past few thousand years.
So nunaim, go ahead and convert to Islam. We still live in a free country where you can convert to any silly-ass religion you choose, unlike the kind of countries where Islam is dominant. And maybe someday when you are next pressured into being an accessory to an act of war against this country (once a coward, always a coward), I will get the pure joy of either seeing you tried and punished or just simply punished.
Posted by: iconoclast at September 08, 2007 02:52 PM (Qaboy)
26
C-C-G,
Nunaim's point was that Bush said "bring it on" when he meant the opposite, so UBL could be saying the opposite that he means as well.
But that is convoluted thinking (presumably typical for him). Bush (at the time) meant what he said because he presumed that the Iraqis and US Marines would easily murder al-Qaedalings. He did not bank on the wide support of al-Qaeda and the scum insurgency among the Sunni Arabs.
Bush meant what he said. The Democrat leadership, the Kos Kids, and UBL also meant what they have said...they want America to lose.
Posted by: CMAR II at September 08, 2007 03:02 PM (tPEaC)
27
If my wholehearted conversion to another religion will save lives, it's the very least I can do. I encourage you to follow my example--"encourage" in the original meaning of the word: I want to
give you the courage to make this sacrifice if it is an act that will protect us from bin Laden. He says that he won't attack us again if we convert.
Posted by: nunaim at September 08, 2007 03:04 PM (KmhBe)
28
Is the hole really that deep? Yikes. Say hi to the rabbit for me.
Posted by: David at September 08, 2007 03:11 PM (hpkMZ)
29
absolutely unbelievable, nunaim.
And after you convert, while I most emphatically will not, and Islamic fanatics still target everyone with violence because I and others will not join this cult, what will you do next? Help them to find us and convert us? And if we still refuse to convert? Will you help them to hold us down while we are beheaded?
Is nothing in your universe inviolable? Are you that frightened to die?
Posted by: iconoclast at September 08, 2007 03:20 PM (Qaboy)
30
If my wholehearted conversion to another religion will save lives, it's the very least I can do. I encourage you to follow my example--"encourage" in the original meaning of the word: I want to give you the courage to make this sacrifice if it is an act that will protect us from bin Laden. He says that he won't attack us again if we convert.
Posted by nunaim at September 8, 2007 03:04 PM
nunaim, call your doctor, not enough blood is making it to your brain.
If you convert to the form of Islam that Bin Laden practices, you will be at the Taliban/Iranian level of sharia. Under this level, many people have been killed for violating their laws. Men, women, and children.
These people weren't killed because they were Americans. They weren't killed because they were implementing American foreign policy. They weren't killed because they were westerners. They weren't killed because they were Christians.
Bin Laden and his followers will kill even their own people if it suits their pursuit of power and control. This is well documented and occurs and has occurred with absolutely no American involvement.
Really, make an appointment.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at September 08, 2007 03:36 PM (EsOdX)
31
nunaim
If OBL and others next demanded we send our Jewish countrymen to their camps, would you "en-courage" us to make that sacrifice too?
Posted by: iconoclast at September 08, 2007 03:43 PM (Qaboy)
32
If my wholehearted conversion to another religion will save lives, it's the very least I can do.
I wish I could believe you aren't serious. However, after reading your comments on CY the last couple of weeks, I have to take you at your word. You are truly unhinged and mentally unstable.
But, no one is keeping you from converting. Suggest you make a pilgrimmage to Wizirhistan and attend an al Qaeda training camp. Then return to the United States to spread the word. You can only be a true convert if you embrace jihad.
All that will give the FBI a reason to keep an eye on you. And you desperately need someone to keep an eye on you. Before you hurt yourself or someone else.
Posted by: John in CA at September 08, 2007 04:11 PM (PQVEt)
33
Sheesh, I run to the store for fixin's for dinner (beef
and pork... Hindus and Muslims beware), and you guys have all the fun with nunaim the cat toy without me.
-just kidding-
Posted by: C-C-G at September 08, 2007 04:17 PM (viASe)
34
Let's see, David (and shame on you for bringing disgrace to a great name):
How many of those "Republican policies" that you blame for terrorism were in place in 11/4/79?
How many in 10/23/83?
How many in 6/25/96?
How about 11/7/85?
How about 10/12/00?
Do you even KNOW what happened on 2/26/93?
And, of course, 9/11/01?
Historical illiteracy: the hallmark of the (anti)American Left.
Nunaim is absolutely right, though. If we had converted to National Socialism in '39, think of how many young Americans wouldn't have had to die fighting for nations that could never know democracy and who never could create honest, strong governments.
And if we had followed his well-meaning advice and gone Communist in '46, just think of how many wars we wouldn't have to have fought!
Of course, as an unintended benefit, we would've had the pleasure of seeing 'mental defectives' like nunaim rounded up and sent "somewhere safe"... but I'm sure nunaim woudn't object to that necessary Revolutionary sacrifice.
Posted by: DaveP. at September 08, 2007 04:59 PM (TUDaQ)
35
I think we should stop picking on nunaim. She is clearly someone whose emotions/compassion far outweigh her cognitive processes. The emotions are laudable, but the dissonance with reality probably causes her a great deal of pain. But because she cannot deal with the obvious conclusions of her emotional opinions, our hammering on her probably is even more painful than we realize. It is, to agree with CCG, too much like the casual cruelty of a cat playing with a mouse.
nunaim, I apologize for being quite so harsh with you. I do not wish to see you punished. But you really should get some help before you do something harmful in the real world.
Posted by: iconoclast at September 08, 2007 05:20 PM (Qaboy)
36
Iconoclast, I must respectfully disagree.
For someone with nunaim's obvious political leanings to come to a conservative blog is one thing.
For them to comment once or perhaps even twice is another thing.
But for them to not only comment repeatedly but claim to be "pwning" the debates is something else entirely.
In short, they are asking for it, in spades. And I feel no guilt about giving it to them. Nunaim can stop the pain at any time, by leaving.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 08, 2007 05:33 PM (viASe)
37
CCG
ok, but I am done with her. Not only is it too much like shooting sitting ducks, but I feel a little dirty afterward too. Kind of like I was beating up a smaller kid or a cripple. Yuckkk.
pwning through total loss--interesting approach,
Posted by: iconoclast at September 08, 2007 06:59 PM (k3DL3)
38
I think I'm going to get a prayer rug...just in case the democrats take him up on his offer.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at September 08, 2007 07:13 PM (mrNpK)
39
And if we had followed his well-meaning advice and gone Communist in '46, just think of how many wars we wouldn't have to have fought!
Yes! Just think! And on top of it all, we would each give according to our ability and receive according to our needs. Boy, that would suck!
Posted by: nunaim at September 08, 2007 07:39 PM (KmhBe)
40
So, nunaim, can we take up a collection to get you a one-way ticket to that Communist haven, China (and no, I don't mean Hong Kong)?
Or perhaps you'd prefer living with the Dear Leader in North Korea?
Or, perhaps you'd rather stay here and leave the joys of Communism for "others," you know, the "little people."
Posted by: C-C-G at September 08, 2007 08:30 PM (viASe)
41
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is far worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has NO CHANCE of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
nunaim... seriously, you've been "pwned" several times over already. remember that the next time you come to comment here.
Posted by: K-Det at September 09, 2007 12:58 AM (zCQz8)
42
the quote was John Stuart Mill btw.
Posted by: K-Det at September 09, 2007 01:00 AM (zCQz8)
43
Ask the Jews of Khaybar and Yathrib about the solicitousness of Islam for the Jews; no wait
there are none; Yathrib is what we used to call Medina
Posted by: narciso at September 09, 2007 09:12 AM (DMnkh)
44
K-Det, if you're ever in the northwestern USA, I'd be honored to shake your hand for bringing up that quote.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 09, 2007 10:19 AM (viASe)
45
I havent been around as long as you guys but I think nunaim is pulling your collective leg.
Posted by: Jason at September 09, 2007 01:33 PM (yIEot)
46
Well, here's what blows my mind: whenever I've said something eminently reasonable, either as nunaim or as my retired username--for example, "I've never seen an episode of Olbermann" or "I've actually never read a Kos thread" or even "the only Michael Moore film I've ever seen was
Roger and Me, and that was twenty-some years ago"--I get accused of lying.
Of
lying.
About watching Olbermann.
On the other hand, if I make up something nutty, like "I'm going to convert to Islam because bin Laden told me to," you guys lap it up like a bowl full of cream.
It is indeed something to ponder.
Posted by: nunaim at September 09, 2007 04:31 PM (Gy0VK)
47
either as nunaim or as my retired username
Oh, you admit to sock-puppeting?
So long, nunaim, It's been fun, but not in the way you might think.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 09, 2007 04:44 PM (viASe)
48
Oh, you admit to sock-puppeting?
I reckon it's not sock-puppeting if I stopped using the other name a long while back.
Posted by: nunaim at September 09, 2007 04:50 PM (Gy0VK)
49
That's up to CY, now, isn't it?
Posted by: C-C-G at September 09, 2007 04:59 PM (viASe)
50
CCG, I really hurt your feelings with my revelation, didn't I? The idea that I'd convert to Islam must have seemed made to order for your brand of ranting. Your shrill response carries with it the stink of, "Geez, I look like a fool, and now I need to lash out at someone to take attention away from myself."
CY can probably tell from ISP records who I am, how long I've been coming here, and what my old handle used to be. If he bans me, then that's what he does. I'd rather he didn't, since there are a couple of reasonable folks here who are worth interacting with, but I'm guessing I'd survive.
Posted by: nunaim at September 09, 2007 05:25 PM (Gy0VK)
51
nunaim, if you think that anything that happens here affects my emotions at all--with the possible exception of my sense of humor--you're not even one tenth as bright as
you think you are.
And it's not "
ISP records." That's anti-Patriot-Act talk. What CY can see are your
IP address records. ISP = Internet Service Provider, like AOL. IP = Internet Protocol, which includes the numeric address every computer online gets, among lots of other things.
Don't try to use terms if you don't know what you mean. You make yourself look even more ill-informed, and you certainly need no assistance in that area.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 09, 2007 06:03 PM (viASe)
52
And it's not "ISP records." That's anti-Patriot-Act talk. What CY can see are your IP address records.
Whatever. I stand corrected. You clearly got my point, though.
Posted by: nunaim at September 09, 2007 07:23 PM (Gy0VK)
53
Also: thanks for the assist. I'll try to get it right next time it comes up.
Posted by: nunaim at September 09, 2007 07:32 PM (Gy0VK)
54
"So OBL really doesn't want the US out of Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe he really does want us to topple Assad and the mad mullahs of Iran, too!"
No, of course he bleeding doesn't.
What, did you think that the 911 attacks were supposed to make the US back away saying "Don't hurt us again mr Bin Laden"? Honestly?
I don't assign evil genius status to the man but he isn't a complete idiot. Of course he knew that the US would go after AFghanistan. I imagine that he hoped that Afghanistan would chew up the US army like it chewed up the Russians and the Brits before them. Unfortunately for him the US fought a brilliant war in Afghanistan, barely touching the country except through proxies and by some good old fashioned support for the bastards we liked over the ones we didn't.
Then the US went and invaded Iraq and he must have thought all his dreams came true.
As of now he wins either way you see, if you quit Iraq then he gets to crow about defeating the invaders (when what really happened was that the native insurgency defeated the invaders), if you stay he gets to play the great warrior and get more idiot recruits.
Get this, and log it somewhere. Bin Laden doesn't have an army, he doesn't have nukes, he doesn't have a navy, air force or even much in the way of committed followers. What he has are some poorly training but dedicated special ops forces, a PR strategy and a brand. When you hear him speak you are listening to a speech written to provoke reactions that he hopes will work to achieve his goals.
So, if OBL releases a tape that mirrors Daily Kos talking points (Though I never once saw anyone on Daily Kos suggest that democracy was a bad thing) then before reacting ask youself "How would I be expected to react to this?" and "Why would that help OBL?)
Remember that OBL considers Americans to be largely intellectually lazy, ignorant boors, so he probably assume that you'll react to this by, on the left, ignoring it and on the right saying "Look, OBL is on the side of the lefties! I told you they were traitors!". Now, why would he want to provoke this reaction? Because his goals are best served by a polarised and mutually antagonistic US populace who react according to their own brand loyalties rather than acting in their national best interest.
Just try that one thing, ask "What does OBL think that he is achieving by saying this?"
Posted by: Rafar at September 10, 2007 04:13 AM (YJYx/)
55
Oh yeah forgot to comment on this:
"What does OBL think that he is achieving by saying this?"
What he wants. He wants to divide the nation into squabbling instead of unifying to defeat him and his forces. I just find it interesting which side he chooses to parrot.
Also, don't call Al Qaeda and those types "stupid." They are far from it. Uneducated losers? Sure but they are not stupid. Applying stupidity to your enemies is usually your last mistake.
Posted by: Jason at September 10, 2007 08:34 AM (B9+zH)
56
Rafar, I would challenge you on one point: prove, please, that Iraq is being used as a
successful recruiting tool. Note, not that OBL is trying to use it as one, but that it is succeeding, gathering more recruits to his cause. I don't believe you can do it, any more than any of the innumerable lefties who have claimed that can prove it.
Let us look at what is currently happening in Iraq: the tribes, both Sunni and Shia, are arming themselves
against al Qaeda, as a response to their massive and, quite honestly, stupid brutality towards the people they should be trying to enlist. As for foreign fighters coming in to Iraq, the lack of safe havens, thanks to General Petraeus, is making that harder and harder. If the new foreign recruits have no place to live and build their bombs, they're useless, and Petraeus is doing a very good job of denying them that.
Finally, even if your assertion was provable and correct (and I throw this in
just for the sake of the argument, and not because I believe it), look at the sorts of recruits he is getting. Bunglers. The Glasgow Airport, Fort Dix, and the latest foiled German plot bear witness to the fact that these new recruits are about as good at planning as Elmer Fudd. If these are the kind of new recruits the Iraq war is driving to al Qaeda, I say let him have them. Those types of recruits help us far more than they do him.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 10, 2007 09:17 AM (viASe)
57
"I just find it interesting which side he chooses to parrot."
Why, do you think it would make more sense if he were to parrot lines like "We should double gitmo" or "We should bomb Iran"? In fact, this can be easily turned around. If you assume that OBL is smart enough to know that anything he supports is instantly made less popular in the US (Which is pretty much the case) then his 2004 endorsement of Kerry has to be taken as meaning that he actually wanted Bush to win, which would imply that the side he parrots is the one that he is more concerned with diminishing.
To put it more simply, if OBL supports something in a public statement you can be sure that he wants that something to be less popular in the US.
Now, why would OBL want antiwar leftists less popular in the US?
"Also, don't call Al Qaeda and those types "stupid.""
Erm. I didn't;
"I don't assign evil genius status to the man but he isn't a complete idiot."
The implication being that he was a man of normal intelligence, and only someone of significantly lower than average intelligence would take anything he says at face value.
Posted by: Rafar at September 10, 2007 09:22 AM (YJYx/)
58
"Note, not that OBL is trying to use it as one, but that it is succeeding, gathering more recruits to his cause. "
Everytime you get "Christian oppressors slaughtering Muslims" or the "Nations of the West commiting atrocities" it is a recruiting tool.
As to whether he is succeeding, I have no idea, obviously, not having access to the Al-Q membership roster. Still, you could look at the 2007 NIE. I assume that they have access to some data...
http://www.dni.gov/press_releases/20070717_release.pdf
"Of note, we assess that al-QaÂ’ida
will probably seek to leverage the contacts and capabilities of al-QaÂ’ida in Iraq (AQI), its
most visible and capable affiliate and the only one known to have expressed a desire to attack
the Homeland. In addition, we assess that its association with AQI helps al-QaÂ’ida to
energize the broader Sunni extremist community, raise resources, and to recruit and
indoctrinate operatives, including for Homeland attacks."
But I generally consider intelligence estimates to be pretty worthless so I wouldn't be offended if you do too.
"I don't believe you can do it, any more than any of the innumerable lefties who have claimed that can prove it."
Hey, I'm just parroting your intel services, ask them why they came to their conclusions.
"Note, not that OBL is trying to use it as one, but that it is succeeding, gathering more recruits to his cause."
And as for this, I think that OBL is pursuing a pointless and failed strategy. Yes, he has managed to give the US enough rope to get involved in a really stupid war in Iraq, yes he has successfully made Americans feel what it might be like to be bombed, but generally his strategy is very short on the long term. What has succeeded has only done so because some people in the US were itching for an excuse to make the stupid steps that they did.
This is of course the funny thing about real Islamic hardliners (particularly the Wahhabis) whenever they actually try to get their movement going it falls apart because it is based on complete crap. Look at the history of OBLs predecessors, failed clowns to a man.
Posted by: Rafar at September 10, 2007 09:37 AM (YJYx/)
59
If you assume that OBL is smart enough to know that anything he supports is instantly made less popular in the US (Which is pretty much the case) then his 2004 endorsement of Kerry has to be taken as meaning that he actually wanted Bush to win, which would imply that the side he parrots is the one that he is more concerned with diminishing.
What makes OBL think that we do the exact opposite of what he says? Do you think that if Kerry would have been elected OBL would have been mollified into complacency? Please.
If you assume that OBL is smart enough to know that anything he supports is instantly made less popular in the US (Which is pretty much the case) then his 2004 endorsement of Kerry has to be taken as meaning that he actually wanted Bush to win, which would imply that the side he parrots is the one that he is more concerned with diminishing.
Posted by: Jason at September 10, 2007 10:27 AM (B9+zH)
60
Sorry I accidently hit "Post."
O rly?
he gets to play the great warrior and get more idiot recruits.
The implication being that he was a man of normal intelligence, and only someone of significantly lower than average intelligence would take anything he says at face value.
I don't think he really believes all of the global warming mumbo jumbo but I do think he's courting the side he feels would be more receptive to him.
We made it a policy not to take OBL at his word before 9/11 and 3000 Americans paid the ultimate price for that folly. When he says he wants to create a worldwide Caliphate, should we not believe him? What makes you any more qualified than the rest of us to posit what OBL really meant. Maybe you should keep accusations of sub-level intelligence holstered for a bit.
Posted by: Jason at September 10, 2007 10:33 AM (B9+zH)
61
"What makes OBL think that we do the exact opposite of what he says?"
I don't. I said;
"If you assume that OBL is smart enough to know that anything he supports is instantly made less popular in the US"
OBLs support makes a position less popular. It doesn't mean that you do the opposite of what he says, but it makes it less popular, both inherently and by giving ammunition to those who oppose that position.
What, you think that he thought that he was helping Kerry?
"Do you think that if Kerry would have been elected OBL would have been mollified into complacency? Please."
No, that is pretty much the opposite of what I suggested. Not that I think that Kerry would have done anything much different, but it may have increased the chances of the US taking a wiser road to dealing with the world. This is a bad thing from OBLs POV.
"I don't think he really believes all of the global warming mumbo jumbo but I do think he's courting the side he feels would be more receptive to him."
He isn't courting any Americans, why would he? No American (Well, maybe a few nutjobs, but nothing over a few thousand) is going to be on his side. He is hated and reviled by almost everyone. The most extreme position taken to OBL in any visible way in the US is that he doesn't exist, not that he is an ally.
Do you think that he believes that a few kind words will mean that the American people will forgive him for 911? How dim do you think that he is?
He is never going to be mollified because his desires are unrealistic and impossible. The US public is never going to come round to his POV because, well, (1) He is the most hated public figure in living memory and (2) he wants you all to convert to Islam which is obviously absurd.
"We made it a policy not to take OBL at his word before 9/11 and 3000 Americans paid the ultimate price for that folly. When he says he wants to create a worldwide Caliphate, should we not believe him?"
No you didn't. You made it policy to find him and kill him. He kept funding ops against you and saying that he was going to do it again.
Yes, he wants a worldwide caliphate, which is why I say that his long term goals are a bit fuzzy (and laughable).
It isn't that silly game where one brother will always lie and the other will always tell the truth. OBL will lie and manipulate when it suits him to and will tell the truth when it suits him to.
"What makes you any more qualified than the rest of us to posit what OBL really meant."
I don't claim to be.
I'm starting from the assumption that the speech was a carefully written piece of psy-ops propeganda by a man with an effective PR team. If you're not starting from that position then you're not looking at it sensibly. The question is simply "Why write that speech? What effects are you expecting to produce?"
"Maybe you should keep accusations of sub-level intelligence holstered for a bit."
What accusations of sub-intelligence? I don't think that any of the players in this are of sub-par intelligence.
Unless you mean the "Stupid steps" comment, in which case that is a case of intelligent people doing very stupid things because of their misguided assumptions, not because of their inherent stupidity.
Ultimately this is pretty simple;
1) Do you think that OBL supporting something is more likely to make Americans support that position or reject it?
2) Do you think that OBL knows this.
I would say that the obvious answer to these is;
1) It is more likely to make them reject it.
2) Yes.
Posted by: Rafar at September 10, 2007 10:58 AM (kkgmI)
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Dave,(neo-con Dave, not lib Dave) isn't it possible he's playing to the right, by aligning himself with the left's positions he gives credence to the right.
Capitalist infidel, are you really afraid of the possibility of a global calliphate? Don't see Halloween, you'll have nightmares for months.
Posted by: Cpl. Cam at September 10, 2007 03:41 PM (kXhlD)
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The Glasgow Airport, Fort Dix, and the latest foiled German plot bear witness to the fact that these new recruits are about as good at planning as Elmer Fudd. If these are the kind of new recruits the Iraq war is driving to al Qaeda, I say let him have them. Those types of recruits help us far more than they do him.
This just in: CCG applauds continued terror attacks; claims that they help his cause.
Posted by: nunaim at September 10, 2007 04:45 PM (22/Qe)
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nunaim, thanks for proving that you can take quotes out of context.
More evidence for my diagnosis of trollism, advanced.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 10, 2007 07:23 PM (viASe)
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Not the Least Bit Misleading
According to several news organizations,
The Report of the Independent Commission on the Security Forces of Iraq, perhaps better known as the Jones Commission Report, states that Iraq's national police force is so broken that they should be disbanded and began over again from scratch.
So says the U.K's Times Online:
The Iraqi national police force is riddled with militia and corruption and should be disbanded, a panel of retired US military officers has told Congress.
The 20-member panel also said today that the Iraqi Army was incapable of acting independently from US forces for at least another 18 months, and "cannot yet meaningfully contribute to denying terrorists safe haven".
[snip]
The commission members, who spent three weeks in Iraq this summer and conducted 150 interviews, were most damning about the Iraqi national police. They said that its parent body, the Interior Ministry, was a ministry "in name only" and rife with sectarianism and corruption. The entire 26,000-member police force should be scrapped and rebuilt anew, they said.
Ann Scott Tyson and Glenn Kesler of WaPo echo a similar account:
Senior U.S. military commanders in Iraq rejected an independent commission's recommendation yesterday to disband the 25,000-strong Iraqi national police force, saying that despite sectarian influences the force is improving and that removing it would create dangerous security vacuums in key regions of the country.
Looking at these and other contemporary articles on the subject, a casual reader skimming the headlines would likely come away with the impression that we've got to fire all of Iraq's policemen and start over from scratch.
But what you would probably gather from these accounts is not a full and accurate representation of what the commission says [the report actually says far more, and covers the Iraqi military as well, but we're focusing on this one aspect for the moment]. I know, because I have a copy of the 152-page report in front of me right now.
The Jones Commission does advocate the disbanding of the 25,000-man Iraqi National Police, but what neither article mentioned is that the NP is the smallest element of the various police forces under the Ministry of the Interior.
The Commission states something quite different regarding the much larger and widespread Iraqi Police Service in their conclusion on page 108 of the report:
Conclusion: The Iraqi Police Service is incapable today of providing security at a level sufficient to protect Iraqi neighborhoods from insurgents and sectarian violence. The police are central to the long-term establishment of security in Iraq. Tbe be effective in combatting the threats that officers face, including sectarian violence, the Iraqi Police must be better trained and equipped. The Commission believes that the Iraqi Police Service can improve rapidly should the Ministry of the Interior become a more functional institution.
There are more than 200,000 civilian personnel in the Iraqi security services, and the commission indicates that the biggest problem for the bulk of those police officers in the Iraqi Police Service is that they undertrained and under-equipped. Tehy also state that if they received the training and material support they need, they are expected to improve rapidly.
Funny how the media reports forget to mention that on page 102, the Commission notes that in 2004, the Civilian Police Assistance Training Team requested funding for 6,000 police advisors to train a force of 135,000, and that Congress only approved funds for 1,000 advisors. Today, the Iraqi police have over 230,000 officers, and only 900 international police advisors and roughly 3,500 military personnel filling these necessary advisory roles.
Harry Reid and the Democrats keep shrieking that it is time for a "change of course" in Iraq.
Perhaps they could start by providing the police with the funding for the advisors they need, which by the way, is another Commission recommendation that you won't hear too many Democrats repeating.
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Trackbacked by The Thunder Run -
Web Reconnaissance for 09/07/2007
A short recon of whatÂ’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.
Posted by: David M at September 07, 2007 01:36 PM (gIAM9)
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Following the time-honored Democrat playbook--stop the funding while demanding progress and bemoaning setbacks. It worked so well in Vietnam at the end....
Posted by: iconoclast at September 07, 2007 10:47 PM (c9S12)
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The INP has been a problematic step-child since the forces started to shake themselves out in 2005-06. In theory Iraq needs a police system to combat organized crime and its inroads in Iraq, but the folks doing that now are the IA and MNF-I because the criminal element is as well armed as the terrorist/insurgent side and freely associates with them. Having to roll-up the Kazali criminal networks that also supplied insurgents/terrorists required that Special Forces (US and Iraqi) go after them as a vital part of the insurgency.
What Iraq desperately needs is police-level equivalent of an 'Internal Affairs' and anti-corruption unit to look after all police. That is a large part of the jigsaw puzzle still missing and getting individuals who are competent and technocratic in outlook to uphold the law *before* other affiliations is a hard one. With so little civilian organized crime and other National outlooks that are *not* well armed enough to require military intervention, Iraq is having a hard time coming up with necessity of it. Real election laws will require actually adhering to them, but the Parliament, like all legislative bodies, doesn't want to have someone coming after them when they start changing their outlook on the law itself.
The US is not immune to this problem, as witness the lack of *any* high level sting operations against Congress in the 'Abscam' mode. Holding the power of the purse and legislative power as a threat to FBI budgets, means that those sorts of operations just don't happen. Our Congress continually writes itself out of laws, like health and workplace safety and labor laws, to allow them to do things, personally, that even the rest of the government can't do.
If the US is fumbling that aspect of things, why should Iraqis be any better at it? With the IA doing a good job getting folks processed to the Central Criminal Court system, with actual convictions based on evidence and folks let free when it is not sufficient to warrant prosecution or finding a guilty verdict, that part is working well. National Police must be able to handle wider-scope than just intra-Nation so as to identify extra-National actors working in their country. The military can help to understand that, but police have the actual knowledge of the law and international law availble to them so as to better define activities and possible threats.
A re-start may be necessary for this. Looking at the Iraqi Special Forces, however, might lead to an alternative method by utilizing the command and control doctrine for it, but adding in the fully legal aspect to a new unit or set of units. The ISF is proving highly capable, non-aligned and dedicated to their jobs and for any wounded to go beyond ability to carry on the fight, the option of learning the law and enforcing it and commanding new units would leverage those skills and attitudes in a National Police while not creating a separate military police. Co-train with the IA to start with and start implementing different standards for personality and mental outlook and throw the entire INP through it as it exists today. That is a possibility, amongst many... and would be a hell of a workload to learn both tactical and legal operations at the same time. For Iraq is in a nasty neighborhood, geographically, and the police will have to be as tough as the military and even more sharply adhere to civilian law.
Not impossible. Just not quick nor easy.
Posted by: ajacksonian at September 08, 2007 09:52 AM (oy1lQ)
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Caught a bit of "Meet the Press" this morning, with a couple of the guys heading up this report. I was impressed because the _first_ thing they said when the host brought this up was to make clear the distinction between the National Police (25,000) and the Police Service (200,000).
Posted by: Dave at September 09, 2007 11:21 AM (mjr3n)
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September 06, 2007
About That Report
A Hill reporter relayed to Kathryn Jean Lopez of NRO's
The Corner just how desperate the Democratic leadership is becoming:
The Democratic leaders are laying it on thick. I was at a press conference this afternoon with Reid, Schumer, Durbin and Murray. They referred to the Petraeus Report as the “Bush Report” about a half-dozen times. Reid even went so far as to correct a reporter when she called it the Petraeus Report. “You mean the Bush Report don’t you?” he said.
They must really want the report to come across in the press as administration hackwork rather than an honest assessment of the situation in Iraq.
The fact of the matter, however, is that Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin, chairman of the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee Charles Shumer, and Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi have a vested interest in deceiving the American public. They have invested far too much time, energy and credibility in a U.S. defeat.
These so-called leaders are not being honest with you.
In accordance with Public Law 110-28 (PDF) asked for by this same Democrat-led Congress:
The President, having consulted with the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Defense, the Commander, Multi-National Forces-Iraq, the United States Ambassador to Iraq, and the Commander of U.S. Central Command, will prepare the report and submit the report to Congress.
This is the "Bush Report," written by the Administration. There is no other report being delivered by General Petraeus for the White House to influence.
Quite to the contrary, it is the professional assessment of officers in the United States Army in Iraq that will largely shape the President's report.
Further, the Congress dictated in Public Law 110-28, that:
Prior to the submission of the President's second report on September 15, 2007, and at a time to be agreed upon by the leadership of the Congress and the Administration, the United States Ambassador to Iraq and the Commander, Multi-National Forces Iraq will be made available to testify in open and closed sessions before the relevant committees of the Congress.
There is no "Petraeus Report" for the White House to manipulate.
What there is is verbal testimony of General Petraeus to Congress as they requested. Where does the General get the raw data and refined intelligence that he is basing his recommendations upon?
I asked that question of Colonel Steven Boylan, U.S. Army Public Affairs Officer to the Commanding General of Multi-National Force Iraq, David Patraeus.
Col. Boylan states:
I can assure you that the words and information that are being used by General Petraeus are from MNF-I...
As with any organization, the staff assists the head of the organization with the preparation and development of the materials used, by gathering the data, preparing slides, collating information, etc. This is and has been done by MNF-I, not any other organization.
The words that everyone will hear on Monday, September 10th and Tuesday, September 11th are his words and his assessment as part of the joint assessment between Ambassador Crocker and himself.
There is no "Petraeus Report," for the Administration to influence.
The material that General Petraeus will use in his testimony was developed from information provided by American soldiers, and no other organization. As General Petraeus told me via email on Sept 3rd:
The Ambassador and I are going to give it to them straight and then allow the folks at either end of Pennsylvania Avenue make what clearly is a national decision.
Democratic leaders in the Senate and House of Representatives are desperate to discredit the straightforward information General Patraeus will provide, and the integrity of the General himself.
Perhaps you should start wondering what they don't want you to hear.
Update: Additional thoughts from JeffG at Protein Wisdom.
... and here come the confused. How hard is it to read the law or do basic research?
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They have to dis-avow it before it hits the street, or it might make sense.
I had fleeting thoughts of being a politician at one time, thought about the types of people I would have to deal with (all sides), shuddered, went and took a shower and felt better.
Posted by: Retired Navy at September 07, 2007 05:13 AM (Mv/2X)
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On my last self-evaluation at work I graded my performance in all categories as excellent. A couple of my coworkers complained about the lack of value or criticism in such self-evaluations. They thought it was a farcical waste of time. I convinced them how wrong they were when I pointed out all my coworkers who felt better about themselves and our jobs because of the excellent marks we gave ourselves.
Posted by: Brendan at September 07, 2007 06:25 AM (1f5WT)
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Okay, I have to admit to being confused here. The law states, as you show here (and some other folks pointed out on another thread), that there was NEVER to be a "Petreaus" report. There was only ever going to be a report from the White House. Everyone, from the WH press secretary to lowly bloggers, has been referring to this report, all summer, as the Petreaus report. How are Sen. Reid and Co. deceiving anyone by calling the report by its proper name? They're not saying the Bush testimony. They're questioning the veracity of this highly, highly touted "report". I'm trying to wrap my brain around this entire line of criticism and it just plain doesn't make sense to me. There is no Petraeus Report, there's only a White House Report based on Gen. Petraeus' report, but Petraeus is going to give us the straight dope when he testifies, so Sen. Reid is undercutting the report that General Petraeus isn't going to write by calling it the Bush Report, which is what it is. Call me crazy, but I just don't see it.
Also, one of the things they don't want us to hear, at least unchallenged, are things like "There has been a 75% drop in sectarian violence" when there's been no such thing (even when you don't count someone shot through the forehead as a victim of sectarian violence...because everyone knows that being shot in the back of the head is the only way sectarian violence kills).
Posted by: J. at September 07, 2007 06:48 AM (8PABH)
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According to Petraeus's own remarks he's going to give Congress the facts on the ground and that it isn't going to be colored by the Administration.
Nobody is complaining that Congress will challenge Petraeus's remarks. That would be a good thing. However, what Reid and Company are doing is implying that Petraeus's testimony is some sort of political campaign. That's just nonsense.
Posted by: Jason at September 07, 2007 07:31 AM (yIEot)
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J, it's really quite simple: the Democratic leadership in the House of Representatives and Senate are trying to undercut the credibility of General Petraeus by dishonestly stating that he is a sockpuppet for the White House.
The rest is wordplay.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 07, 2007 07:46 AM (0BhZ5)
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J, you really shouldn't be confused. As I pointed out to you on the previous thread, it is within the realm of reason and good use of the English language to call Petraeus testimony a "report." It's merely an oral report as opposed to a written one.
Please, attempt to comprehend what you are speaking about before putting fingers to keyboard.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 07, 2007 09:03 AM (viASe)
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Friday Smackdown...Yeah!
Posted by: T.Ferg at September 07, 2007 09:06 AM (2YVh7)
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What they're trying to do, IMO, is damage control.
They are about to be hit by one of the biggest examples of
BLOWBACK in recent political history.
When they were crafting the language of HR 2206 (which became PL 110-2
, it was hip to be anti-war.
None of the Democrats knew about Phantom Thunder, either. PL 110-28 was signed May 25. Phantom Thunder, the first combat offensive of the surge, started on/about June 15.
You gotta give Bush some credit here. He's Texas Two-Stepped the Democrats, again. He got them to approve Petraeus and the surge, got them to approve emergency supplemental appropriations, then Petraeus used the surge and the money to start kicking ass and taking names.
Confederate Yankee:
MASH Here for the ACSIM Congressional Page. It is a good resource for information on military authorizations and appropriations (good if you're a federal contractor, too!).
Posted by: Dave at September 07, 2007 10:01 AM (38EUg)
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I wonder if the Dems would call Petraeus a liar if he came back and said the surge was a miserable failure. Somehow I doubt it. But if he comes back and says it's working, then he is a liar and it's actually the "Bush Report". These trolls make me sick.
It doesn't matter what's best for our country. Only what's best for the Democrat Party.
Posted by: jbiccum at September 07, 2007 10:11 AM (Rd4s4)
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It's hard to see much honesty at work with these Democrats and other anti-war advocates. Anything that undercuts their position must be attacked however it can be with no quarter given and never giving an inch--as we saw in the TNR/Beauchamp affair and are now seeing with Gen. Petraeus.
I believe that a principled opposition of the Iraq War is possible, but mostly that's not what I'm reading or hearing from its opponents.
Posted by: huxley at September 07, 2007 11:12 AM (rOvvS)
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Huxley,
Truth be told, the most principled opposition to OIF comes from the so-called "paleo-conservatives," such as Pat Buchanan. Their opposition is ideologcally and intellectually honest.
As Michael Totten wrote once, liberals should have gotten behind OIF and the liberation of Iraq as the great progressive cause of our time. Empowering and enfranchising women. Democratizing a subjugated people. Establishing a liberal democracy in a place where it had not existed. Even government healthcare, schools and infrastructure projects abound. What's not for a liberal to love in Iraq?
Posted by: Dave at September 07, 2007 11:34 AM (38EUg)
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Dave -- I'm not quite clear what a paleo-conservative is, though I'll take your word for it.
Frankly I still consider myself a liberal and I support the Iraq War for pretty much the reasons you list. I thought opposing fascism and religious intolerance, while promoting democracy, rights for women, gays, and individuals were bedrock for liberals. Those are my values. I can understand some skepticism to support a Republican President's war, but I find the utter closed-mindedness and outright viciousness my former comrades express towards Bush and the war to be profoundly disappointing.
Did I miss the memo that said that freedom and democracy only counted as values when they could be used to attack the United States?
Posted by: huxley at September 07, 2007 11:52 AM (rOvvS)
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Huxley,
Since being tagged with the "neocon" term sometime earlier this year (I had to look it up to see what it was), I've become pretty sure that a paleo-con is a Cold War era conservative cut from the mold of Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan (a man I adored enough to enlist for). I always thought that to liberals, all of us on the right look the same.
On the ideological spectrum, I consider radical Islamists so far the right of both of us that I think we ought to be able to put aside domestic political differences and work together to defeat a common enemy.
No matter how we might differ on what the word "freedom" really means, we ought to be able to agree that what the Tangos have in mind isn't close to either of our ideas of freedom.
Posted by: Dave at September 07, 2007 12:04 PM (38EUg)
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Dave,
It certainly seems to me that 99.9% of Americans ought to be able to put aside political differences to defeat radical Islam. I'm continually surprised that about half the country doesn't get that. So, good to meetcha!
There was a time that the right did look all the same to me. So I'm also surprised by the differences between the neocons and the James Baker-style Republicans.
I don't know how I should be labeled these days. It seems that these days to be a genuine liberal makes one a conservative. A lot of liberals seem to me to be more accurately termed leftists. Interestingly, they no longer want to call themselves liberals--as HRC mentioned her preference to be called progressive. Fine with me. I still think liberal in the classic sense is a term worth preserving.
Posted by: huxley at September 07, 2007 01:15 PM (Qt1f1)
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Despicable conduct by the Dems in an effort to smear a good man (and by all accounts, a brilliant strategist). I wish I could say I was surprised. Unfortunately, no matter what the situation on the ground seems to be (and I will say that it seems premature to declare victory), a certain number of lawmakers appear hell-bent on declaring defeat (also prematurely). Their refusal to listen to Petraeus only further invalidates them.
Posted by: Nathan Tabor at September 07, 2007 04:53 PM (6fTrU)
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Huxley,
There are no Democrats, Liberals, Conservatives, Republicans, Atheists or whatevers in a foxhole.
Frankly, I think that's where we are. We're in a foxhole, we're well armed, well trained, well commanded and well funded. We know who the enemy is, and what their objective is.
We can settle our petty differences soon enough, but out there... There's a bunch of Tangos who want us all either dead or paying the tax.
And I ain't planning on either.
Posted by: Dave at September 07, 2007 07:36 PM (N3OI9)
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Ya know what I find humorous?
It wasn't that long ago that the Dems in Congress were (rightly) castigating Bush for not listening to the generals.
Now who's not listening to the generals?
Posted by: C-C-G at September 07, 2007 08:03 PM (viASe)
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Dave -- I once tried to explain to an anti-war friend the basic difference between her position and mine. Those who support the Iraq War believe we really are at war. Those who don't, don't.
The rest of the discussions--like this business with Gen. Petraeus--are a sort of shadowboxing. The anti-war folks proceed from the assumption that the war is wrong, morally and realistically, and therefore they only use information that validates that viewpoint, as CCG notes. Obviously if Petraeus returned to Washington with news of gloom and doom in Iraq, he would be a great hero like Daniel Ellsberg and there would be none of this undercutting and gainsaying.
I find this approach intellectually dishonest.
Posted by: huxley at September 07, 2007 10:06 PM (Qt1f1)
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Huxley, liberalism/leftism is itself intellectually dishonest.
To proclaim that you want to expand freedom while circumscribing it through an expanding state is intellectually dishonest.
To say that you will make people's lives better by taking away their hard-earned wages through taxes is intellectually dishonest.
And to declare that we would be safer by
not pursuing those who seek to do us harm is not only intellectually dishonest, it's downright stupid.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 08, 2007 09:52 AM (viASe)
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What's not for a liberal to love in Iraq?
The fact that it won't succeed without 500,000 troops in country.
Posted by: Voice of Reason at September 08, 2007 12:02 PM (K1Emm)
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VoR, then how is it getting better there with far less than that? Even your own Democrats are saying so.
Methinks I detect flailing.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 08, 2007 01:01 PM (viASe)
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VoR, then how is it getting better there with far less than that? Even your own Democrats are saying so.
By what metric are things getting better? Attacks may be down in Anbar, or wherever we concentrate the troops in any given month, but that doesn't mean the situation in the entire country is getting better. Of the 18 benchmarks laid out, only 3 are considered to be showing "progress".
Posted by: Voice of Reason at September 08, 2007 02:18 PM (K1Emm)
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VoR:
Ask Congressman Brian Baird (D-WA).
Posted by: C-C-G at September 08, 2007 04:23 PM (viASe)
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Ask Congressman Brian Baird (D-WA).
So what, you found a dem who thinks there's progress. That's not what I asked for -- a metric by which to measure success in Iraq.
Posted by: Voice of Reason at September 08, 2007 11:08 PM (K1Emm)
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"However, what Reid and Company are doing is implying that Petraeus's testimony is some sort of political campaign."
I wonder what they will be doing after the session?
Oh yes, appearing Fox.
You people really are suckers for a PR campaign, aren't you? It is almost as if you enjoy it.
Posted by: Rafar at September 10, 2007 04:34 AM (kkgmI)
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"That's not what I asked for -- a metric by which to measure success in Iraq."
What metric would YOU measure success in Iraq?
Posted by: Dan Irving at September 10, 2007 11:34 AM (zw8QA)
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Democrats Support the Troops
Until they are about to talk.
Congressional Democrats are trying to undermine U.S. Army Gen. David H. Petraeus' credibility before he delivers a report on the Iraq war next week, saying the general is a mouthpiece for President Bush and his findings can't be trusted.
"The Bush report?" Senate Majority Whip Richard J. Durbin said when asked about the upcoming report from Gen. Petraeus, U.S. commander in Iraq.
"We know what is going to be in it. It's clear. I think the president's trip over to Iraq makes it very obvious," the Illinois Democrat said. "I expect the Bush report to say, 'The surge is working. Let's have more of the same.' "
The top Democrats — Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi of California — also referred to the general's briefing as the "Bush report."
Harry Reid, Dick Durbin, Chuck Shumer and Democratic Senators/Presidential candidates Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama were among those Senators who voted to confirm General Petraeus to his position as commander of American forces in Iraq without a single objecting vote, 81-0, on January 26, 2007.
They did not question the capability of the 1974 West Point graduate and Princeton PhD when they had their chance to reject him. Nor did they denounce or even raise serious doubts about allegiences or partisanship then, when they easily could have stated their disgreement with a simple "no" vote.
What a difference 223 days and the fear of success makes.
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So once again, he Dems set the table while and tone of the debate while Reublicans set around with their thumbs, you know where.
Im just about finished with this gang of wimps.
Posted by: Tom Gray at September 06, 2007 11:34 AM (z/R8a)
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The anti-war left is following the same tactical progression they did 40 years ago. Attack the President and "hawks" first. Then attack the military brass. The next step will be to attack the troops as baby killers and rapists.
Oh, wait...
Posted by: Dave at September 06, 2007 11:46 AM (38EUg)
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They have to stand behind him in the confirmation process, so they can stab him in the back.
Posted by: DirtCrashr at September 06, 2007 12:51 PM (VNM5w)
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You're right, there's no better way to discredit something these days than by tieing it to the chronic liars at the Bush White House.
They call it the Bush report because Petraeus isn't writing it, the White House is, they announced that last month. You must have missed it.
Petraeus himself has been distorting facts and outright lying in appearances in rightwing media outlets trying to sell the surge. His past work training the Iraqi military has been a disaster. The proof is in the pudding, the Iraqi military is incompetent, corrupt, and riven with sectarianism. One of his top aides in that effort, Lt Col Levonda Joey Selph is being investigated for billions of dollars worth of missing weapons.
There are any number of reports, (GAO, Jones, NIE, etc.) that refute with facts the politicized military and Bush White House PR offensive that the surge is working. US casualties are up, Iraqi casualties are up, sectarian killings are up, Maliki's government is falling apart, there is little to no security, potable water, electricity, or working sewers in most parts of the country. There is a cholera outbreak north of Baghdad. We're arming Sunni insurgents in Anbar. Sure they'll use them against AQ wannabes but you can be sure they'll eventually use them against the Shiites, Kurds and our guys. They've said as much. You don't end a civil war by arming everybody to the teeth.
None of the political benchmarks the surge was supposed to allow breathing room for have been met. We never had enough troops to pacify Iraq. The few more brigades we sent were sent because it was all we had to send. This is no plan for success, it's just another attempt to put off the inevitable. And in the long run by arming everyone it'll make the violence much worse.
Posted by: markg8 at September 06, 2007 02:42 PM (7xxF4)
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Hold on a second here.
No one is saying anything is wrong with Petraeus. You're creating a straw-man argument here.
The issue here is that the "Petraeus report" was to be an honest and factual report from the commanders on the ground on how effective the surge was.
We have been waiting from an assessment that was supposed to have an air of legitimacy because it wasn't in any way influenced by the administration. The same administration that desperately wants the surge to succeed. Since it is their policy that is being judged it would seem that they shouldn't be the ones doing the judging, right?
Now we know that the report is going to be largely written and presented by that same administration without much candid testimony from Petraeus himself.
It was a typical bait-and-switch used to gain time for a failed foreign policy.
Posted by: Bubba at September 06, 2007 02:51 PM (FHixP)
6
Sadly, some folks just can't be intellectually honest. What Reid, Durbin, Pelosi, etc are trying to do is conflate and then misrepresent two separate things, which is one of their standard tactics. They obviously fooled Bubba.
Here's reality.
The
White House, by law, must submit a report on the progess towards the 18 benchmarks.
That is what the Adminstration has a hand in, and
that can accurately be called the "Bush Report," if you so desire. But Petraeus is not an author of it, and was never supposed to be.
The Army is supposed to provide infomration for the White House report, and General Petraeus is expected to provide
testimony in front of Congress on the progress they've seen and the challenges that remain, and no doubt, explain what elements of the war have evolved and changed since his last time speaking before Congress.
I thought about deleting markg8's comment for all the unsupported troll-grade garbage it contains, but then figured it serves as an excellent example of the kind of fevered, deceptive, and dishonest rhetoric we're hearing in advance of Petraeus' testimony.
You know, our guys must be doing quite well (as the overwheming majority of embed reporting show) for those on the left to be working so hard to undermine the General's testimony.
It may glibly be called "friendly fire," but then, he's quite literally survived that before.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 06, 2007 03:26 PM (ScOBm)
7
Pardon me, markg8 and Bubba, but the US military is full of professionals who owe allegiance to the nation and the constitution. They are not members of the military. You have just impugned the honor of General Petraeus and the officers who are putting together that report. You just defamed them. Do you have any proof that they are going to lie in that report? Or are you just letting your hatred of George Bush cloud your judgment and reason?
The answers, I think, are 'no' and 'yes' respectively.
Posted by: Mikey NTH at September 06, 2007 04:23 PM (Wt5EU)
8
They are not members of the military should read they are not members of the administration.
PIMF
Posted by: Mikey NTH at September 06, 2007 04:26 PM (Wt5EU)
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No one is saying anything is wrong with Petraeus.
Reid was on record months ago stating he didn't believe Petraeus would tell the truth about the status of Iraq.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at September 06, 2007 05:15 PM (mrNpK)
10
So if I'm understanding this correctly, Petreaus was given a set of guidelines for his report BY CONGRESS as to what and when he should report back on matters in Iraq, and then was sent out with their unamimous approval, and now he's returned to report to them as per their wishes.
And Congress's reaction?
"HOW DARE YOU REPORT BACK TO US ON SEPTEMBER 11!!" (Even though that's the date that Congress set)
and
"HOW DARE YOU COME BACK TO US AS WE ASKED YOU TO WITH ANYTHING BUT A HOPELESS, DESPAIRING REPORT ON THE SITUATION IN IRAQ!!"
I'll bet my last dollar that if Petreaus came back with a report that said "Get out, and get out now" he and what he says would be treated with a lot more respect by the pro-Iraq war right than the looney left is treating him now.
Shame on them.
Posted by: ExUrbanKevin at September 06, 2007 05:22 PM (ppKzH)
11
BushÂ’s WH is writing the report they claim will be PetraeusÂ’s. I doubt Petraeus will stray far from their line. He hasnÂ’t so far.
http://tinyurl.com/2nr2r5
“Despite Bush’s repeated statements that the report will reflect evaluations by Petraeus and Ryan Crocker, the U.S. ambassador to Iraq, administration officials said it would actually be written by the White House, with inputs from officials throughout the government.”
You can claim it was always meant to be written by
the WH CY but that's not what Bush has been saying for months. On top of that why even cite a Mooney Times article lambasting Dems for calling it the Bush report and then complain about it yourself? You're not making any sense.
We've been watching for months as Petraeus and his men in Baghdad reclassify deaths differently than they used to and cherry pick data to make their case.
Apparently Petraeus was picked for his loyalty to Bush, not his competence. Hate to tarnish that shining star but hereÂ’s a report you ought to read.
http://tinyurl.com/24wv36
“Army Criminal Investigation Command, Department of Justice, FBI and other federal agencies are investigating widening network of criminal cases involving purchase and delivery of billions of dollars of weapons, supplies and other materiel to Iraqi and American forces; officials say it amounts to largest ring of fraud and kickbacks uncovered in conflict; inquiry has led to several indictments of Americans, with more expected; one investigation involves Lt Col Levonda Joey Selph, senior American officer who worked closely with Gen David H Petraeus”
The Iraqi Army according to Gen. Jones today in Senate testimony cannot stand on itÂ’s own, itÂ’ll be one year to 18 months before they can operate without US help against the insurgents and two years before theyÂ’ll have their logistics set up. If somebody doesnÂ’t steal the whole logistics train and sell it to the insurgents first that is.
Posted by: markg8 at September 06, 2007 05:31 PM (7xxF4)
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I checked around online and I couldn't find any reference to a seperate WH report mandated/asked for by Congress, only the report that was originally touted as coming directly from Gen. Petraeus, but that has been reported, objectively, as being drafted and written by the White House, and delivered by the General. If you can point me to a story about the two different reports, I'd much appreciate it.
Posted by: J. at September 06, 2007 05:39 PM (/hFqr)
13
General Petraeus has impugned his own honor. How?
The summer long PR offensive to sell the surge on Hugh Hewitt's show and other rightwing media outlets. Reporting directly to Republicans but not Democrats in congress. Ginning up statistics to show progress and refusing to show his methodology when questioned on the changes. Allowing derisive bios of Democratic congressmen and women to be posted around his command in Baghdad.
Allowing yourself and your command to be politicized is not only dishonorable it's incredibly stupid and probably illegal. He fits right in with the Bush Administration.
You may remember this:
"Why should we suspect Petreaus might spin his report?
Because he has a well documented history of doing so.
On September 26, 2004 -- approximately six weeks before a presidential election in which the deteriorating situation in Iraq was an increasingly important issue -- Petraeus, then in charge of training Iraqi security forces, published an op-ed in The Washington Post. He wrote glowingly of the progress the Iraqi security forces were making under his tutelage. According to the article, training was on track and increasing in capacity, more than 200,000 Iraqis were performing a wide variety of security missions, 45 Iraqi National Guard battalions and six regular Iraqi army battalions were conducting operations on a daily basis, and six additional regular army battalions and six Iraqi Intervention Force battalions would become operational by the end of November 2004. The Bush administration's policy at that time was "we will stand down when they stand up." Petraeus' article, accordingly, had the effect of telling the electorate that there was light at the end of the tunnel.
The op-ed was patently false and misleading, but that was not the worst part. If Petraeus wrote and published the article on his own initiative, he was injecting himself improperly into a political campaign. If he was encouraged (or even authorized) to do so by his civilian superiors, they were abusing military professionalism for partisan political purposes."
Posted by: markg8 at September 06, 2007 05:43 PM (7xxF4)
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markg8
Then why did your fellow military haters in congress unanomously vote for him?
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at September 06, 2007 05:52 PM (Lgw9b)
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No, markg8 - you impugned his honor by saying that a report that he has yet to give will be dishonest.
But, since you're here, and you and Bubba can predict what will be in a document/testimony that is yet to be delivered...
Could you guys give me the numbers for tommorrow's MegaMillions lottery? Even a few hundred thousand dollars would go a long way.
Posted by: Mikey NTH at September 06, 2007 07:06 PM (Wt5EU)
16
Public Law 110-28 specifes that "the President, having consulted with the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Defense, the Commander, Multi-National Forces-Iraq, the United States Ambassador to Iraq, and the Commander of U.S. Central Command, will prepare the report and submit the report to Congress."
The law separately requires that: "
he United States Ambassador to Iraq and the Commander, Multi-National Forces Iraq will be made available to testify in open and closed sessions before the relevant committees of the Congress."
"Petraeus" Report
PL 110-28
Posted by: SouthernRoots at September 06, 2007 07:22 PM (EsOdX)
17
Exactly, SouthernRoots. And markg8 and Bubba stated that whatever information General Petraeus provides to Congress (whether in written form or sworn testimony) on this subject will be a lie.
If that isn't defamation, then I do not understand defamation. Or mere insult.
Posted by: Mikey NTH at September 06, 2007 07:30 PM (Wt5EU)
18
http://tinyurl.com/2nr2r5
Curious those "administration officials" don't care to speak on the record. One rather suspects those administration officials are named Reid and Durbin.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at September 06, 2007 07:41 PM (mrNpK)
19
I checked around online and I couldn't find any reference to a seperate WH report mandated/asked for by Congress, only the report that was originally touted as coming directly from Gen. Petraeus, but that has been reported, objectively, as being drafted and written by the White House, and delivered by the General. If you can point me to a story about the two different reports, I'd much appreciate it.
Posted by: J. at September 6, 2007 05:39 PM
Certainly, J. Glad to oblige.
First,
a link (helpfully shortened by TinyURL) to the full text of the law, Public Law 110-28, at the Government Printing Office website.
Now, the relevant portions, with emphasis added:
(2) Reports required.
(A) The President shall submit an initial report, in classified and unclassified format, to the Congress, not later than July 15, 2007, assessing the status of each of the specific benchmarks established above, and declaring, in his judgment, whether satisfactory progress toward meeting these benchmarks is, or is not, being achieved.
(B) The President, having consulted with the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Defense, the Commander, Multi-National Forces-Iraq, the United States Ambassador to Iraq, and the Commander of U.S. Central Command, will prepare the report and submit the report to Congress.
(C) If the President's assessment of any of the specific benchmarks established above is unsatisfactory, the President shall include in that report a description of such revisions to the political, economic, regional, and military components of the strategy, as announced by the President on January 10, 2007. In addition, the President shall include in the report, the advisability of implementing such aspects of the bipartisan Iraq Study Group, as he deems appropriate.
(D) The President shall submit a second report to the Congress, not later than September 15, 2007, following the same procedures and criteria outlined above.
(E) The reporting requirement detailed in section 1227 of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2006 is waived from the date of the enactment of this Act through the period ending September 15, 2007.
(3) Testimony before congress.--
Prior to the submission of the President's second report on September 15, 2007, and at a time to be agreed upon by the leadership of the Congress and the Administration, the United States Ambassador to Iraq and the Commander, Multi-National Forces Iraq will be made available to testify in open and closed sessions before the relevant committees of the Congress.
Now, if one wished to be extraordinarily pedantic, one could contend that there will be one report (the President's) and one testimony (General Petraeus', as Commander, Multi-National Forces Iraq). However, it could just as easily be argued that there are two reports, one written (the President's), and one oral (General Petraeus').
However, any attempt to deny that the above are two completely separate items is clearly in error, given the text of the law.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 06, 2007 07:50 PM (viASe)
20
C-C-G, one would have to be unusually pedantic to claim that a proffered witness' oral testimony on the document submitted is not a report. General Petraeus can be questioned line for line on the report and asked what supports the assertions of each conclusion of the written report he is testifying to. If that testimony (and the transcript) is not a report to Congress then there is no such thing as witness testimony or cross examination.
BTW, prefiled direct testimony sponsored by an available witness is very common in adminstrative hearings, especially hearings on technical subjects.
That is a sworn report to Congress. If the members of Congress do not avail themselves and question General Petraeus closely, then maybe we need to replace them.
Posted by: Mikey NTH at September 06, 2007 08:40 PM (Wt5EU)
21
True, Mikey, very true.
One wonders if J will be so pedantic as to deny that General Petraeus' testimony is a separate report from the President's report.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 06, 2007 08:42 PM (viASe)
22
Speaking of reports and congress availing themselves, the past two reports have shown the progress in Anbar. Clearly congress did not avail themselves of their own mandated report. From Nov 2006 to the May 2007 attacks in Anbar dropped 39%. Moreover. Anbar moved from the most violent to the third most violent province. There in the record and still everyone, especially congress was surprised.
Posted by: CoRev at September 06, 2007 09:20 PM (0U8Ob)
23
Report Schmort! Who gives a flying crap about that report, like it matters if it goes North or South, as if it will change our position in the war? Why can't they bring back Star Trek so you bloggers have something better to do!
Posted by: John Bryan at September 06, 2007 09:53 PM (yGOyP)
24
John Bryan, why can't they bring back Three's Company so blog trolls have something better to do?
Posted by: C-C-G at September 06, 2007 09:55 PM (viASe)
25
Thanks both, C-C-G and SouthernRoots. I appreciate the info and the links. I think that everyone involved in this, including the administration, has been extremely imprecise in how this has been discussed. All summer, the administration has prepared the public for the "Petreaus" Report and then, recently, stated that the report would be written by the White House. Since that was the intention all along, it should have been made clearer. Especially since, as I recall, the administration was reluctant to let General Petreaus and Ambassador Crocker testify in the open.
That aside, and with all due respect, I don't think General Petraeus' honor is the issue here. I don't think questioning his intentions, especially in light of a record of distortions and unfounded statements on his part, constitutes not supporting the troops in the field. I think that saying so is a smear on the patriotism of duly elected officials and serves only to stifle debate and discussion on the most vital issue facing this country right now.
Both the report and the testimony have been shown already to be flawed and compromised by domestic politic issues. To approach them with skepticism is a sensible position. What you all seem to fail to grasp is that one can support the troops, hope for the best in their mission, love your country and still not trust those in charge. These are not mutually exclusive positions.
Posted by: J. at September 07, 2007 06:36 AM (8PABH)
26
"Both the report and the testimony have been shown already to be flawed and compromised by domestic politic issues."
A report that hasn't even been partially leaked to the NYT or WaPo, and testimony that has yet to be uttered have "been shown already to be flawed?" And my Calculus students' quizzes, that they are going to take on Monday, are already mostly wrong....
Posted by: notropis at September 07, 2007 07:27 AM (rWATM)
27
Notropis, one wonders what lefties like J will say if General Petraeus says that we can start a gradual drawdown of the troops. After all, they've already branded him a liar, so they can't very well take that statement as gospel without lots of verbal acrobatics.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 07, 2007 09:00 AM (viASe)
28
I should also point out that, given J's obvious ignorance about the text of the law in question, any reasonable person would probably take his opinions with a large grain of salt.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 07, 2007 09:01 AM (viASe)
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New Major Offensive in Northern Iraq Underway: Media Caught Flat-Footed?
They're calling it, "
Lightning Hammer II," and it seeks to build on the gains made in pushing al Qaeda out of Baquba and surrounding areas in Diyala Province.
About 14,000 Iraqi security forces stationed throughout Nineveh province and 12,000 U.S. soldiers are conducting the operation, which started Wednesday evening.
The military said the operation "follows Lightning Hammer I ... to deny al Qaeda safe haven in the provinces" of Salaheddin, Nineveh, Diyala, and Kirkuk.
The military said the original Operation Lightning Hammer -- August 13 to September 1 -- ousted militants from the Diyala River valley, northeast of Baquba, the capital of Diyala province.
"Al Qaeda cells were driven from Baquba in Diyala due to Operation Arrowhead Ripper in June and July and then pursued in the Diyala River valley during Operation Lighting Hammer in August," Maj. Gen. Benjamin Mixon, commander of Task Force Lightning and Multinational Division-North.
I'd tell you more, but right now, there doesn't seem to be a lot more to tell. As of this particular moment, CNN seems to have the only account of this 26,000-man offensive in northern Iraq, and I'm unable to find any story related to a new Iraqi offensive on Google News.
Now, it could very well be that there are reporters and photographers embedded with those units taking part in the offensive that simply haven't had time or opportunity to file reports, but it is a matter of record that the wire service and larger individual news organizations largely missed out on the start of Lightning Hammer I in Diyala Province, and once the operation was underway, they only entered the battlespace very briefly--some literally staying just hours--before helicoptering back to Baghdad.
If America wonders why we get so little good news coming out of Iraq, they might want to consider that at least part of that reason is because news organizations aren't where the news is occuring.
Update: CNN seems to be merely reporting highlights of the military press release:
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
RELEASE No. 20070906-05
September 6, 2007
Operation Lightning Hammer II expands pursuit of al-Qaeda Multi-National
Division - North PAO
TIKRIT, Iraq - Iraqi Security Forces and Coalition Forces continued
their relentless pursuit of al-Qaeda in northern Iraq by launching
Operation Lightning Hammer II, Wednesday evening.
The operation, involving approximately 14,000 ISF, partnered
with more than 12,000 CF, is spearheaded by Soldiers from the 4th
Brigade Combat Team, 1st Cavalry Division, partnered with members of the
2nd and 3rd Iraqi Army Divisions, and Iraqi Police forces stationed
throughout Ninewa province.
In addition to the thousands of Soldiers and their ISF
counterparts participating in Lightning Hammer II, attack helicopters,
close-air support, Bradley Fighting Vehicles, Stryker Vehicles and tanks
compliment the combined effort. This operation follows Lightning Hammer
I in the series of offensives to deny al-Qaeda safe haven in the
provinces of Salah ad Din, Ninewa, Diyala and Kirkuk. Operation
Lightning Hammer I, from Aug. 13 to Sept. 1, succeeded in driving enemy
elements out of the Diyala River Valley, northeast of Baqouba.
"Al-Qaeda cells were driven from Baqouba in Diyala due to
Operation Arrowhead Ripper in June and July and then pursued in the
Diyala River Valley during Operation Lighting Hammer in August," said
Maj. Gen. Benjamin Mixon, commander of Task Force Lightning and
Multinational Division-North. "Our main goal with Lightning Hammer II is
to continue to pursue and apply constant pressure to the terrorist cells
operating in MND-N, and destroy them where they attempt to hide."
"Our combined forces' commitment to hunt al Qaeda and its
operatives remains as strong as ever," said Mixon. "We will not rest
until al Qaeda in Iraq is driven from northern Iraq, and Iraqi citizens
have a safe and secure homeland."
I'll see if I can make contact with PAO covering this operation and provide more information as it becomes available.
Update: I checked in with the Task Force Lightning PAO, and he told me that there are a total of 11 embedded journalists in Northern Iraq. A grand total of one is from a major wire service, and five of them are in Diyala. The remaining northern provinces of Ninewa, Salah Ad Din, and Kirkuk have a total of two embedded journalists each.
How many of them are actually covering operations related to Operation Lightning Hammer II is unknown.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:59 AM
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Post contains 739 words, total size 5 kb.
1
Bob, seems that the AP, Jamal Hussein, or even Scott Thomas may be on the job, but we'll just have to wait for their reports.
Posted by: CoRev at September 06, 2007 11:11 AM (0U8Ob)
2
Wow, you mean the OPSEC worked and the networks didn't get to broadcast the full battle plan the week prior to it kicking off?
Amazing.
Posted by: SGT Jeff (USAR) at September 06, 2007 12:11 PM (yiMNP)
3
Jeff, it is one thing to break operational security, but quite another to have such a shortage of media that you simply can't cover a third of the country.
There is a grand total of two embeds in Ninewa, two in Salah Ad Din, Two in Kirkuk, and five in Diyala... 11 in all of northern Iraq.
Of those, there is precisely 1 wire service employee from AP (in Diyala), and the rest belong to smaller media firms and individual news outlets.
This is pathetic.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 06, 2007 12:23 PM (ScOBm)
4
I agree with your sarcasm, Jeff. And I agree with your disdain, CY.
Posted by: Mikey NTH at September 06, 2007 07:12 PM (Wt5EU)
5
Given the way the majority of the media has treated the average soldier in the field, I don't doubt that reporters feel unwelcome at FOBs. The reporters are apparently much more at home in their Baghdad hotel rooms, where they can pat each other on the backs for their "bravery."
Posted by: C-C-G at September 06, 2007 08:44 PM (viASe)
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September 05, 2007
AQ Bomb Plot Against American Targets in Germany Foiled
On
CNN:
Three terror suspects held in Germany planned to carry out "imminent" and "massive" bombs attacks on a U.S. air base and Frankfurt's international airport, according to prosecutors.
The suspects, two Germans aged 22 and 29 and a 29-year-old Turk, received terrorist training in Pakistan and had close ties to al Qaeda, according to Jorg Ziercke, president of Germany's Federal Criminal Investigation Office.
Ziercke said the group was united by a "hatred against American citizens" as it planned attacks against Frankfurt airport, a popular international travel hub, and Ramstein air base, a major transit point for the U.S. military into the Middle East and Central Asia.
The group had amassed 680 kg (1,500 pounds) of hydrogen peroxide to make bombs, German federal prosecutor Monika Harms told reporters on Wednesday.
Harms said the three suspects also planned to attack bars and restaurants popular with Americans.
She said the planned attacks would have been among the biggest yet on German soil. Possible scenarios would have been car bombings used in simultaneous attacks.
Officials said the hydrogen peroxide could have produced a bomb with the explosive power of 540 kg of TNT.
The article goes on to speculate that the attacks could have been planned to have occurred on September 11.
The bombers were clearly attempting to build triacetone triperoxide (TATP) bombs, a favorite of terrorists that nevertheless often fails because of its instability. Occasionally it explodes during the production/bomb preparation steps, and other times, an improper mix leads to a bomb that either burns instead of detonating, or fails to ignite at all.
Frankly, until we know more about them and learn about their amassed equipment and technical know-how, I'm going to be quite skeptical that they could have manufactured high-grade TATP in quantities sufficient to build successful bombs of the size this report suggests. I may very well be wrong, but after the failures of the second London bombers, and the Glasgow bombers, I have very little faith in the competence of the surviving al Qaeda bomb builders remaining in Pakistan and Afghanistan who train terrorists such as these.
Update: I just contacted Yassin Musharbash, one of the two Spiegel reporters who have written the definitive post on this terrorist event thus far (h/t: Hot Air, which has an excellent round-up, as always).
He has confirmed my earlier hunch that triacetone triperoxide, or TATP, was the specfic peroxide-based explosive that these suspected terrorists were planning to use. This was the same kind of explosive used successfully in the 7/7 London tube bombings, and then fizzled in similar attacks just two weeks later on 7/21.
Pajamas Media is following the story as well.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
Its surprisingly easy to make explosives out of common household stuff. I wouldn't bet the farm (or he airbase, or the international airline hub) that they'd fail.
Posted by: Santiago at September 05, 2007 06:47 AM (euKEY)
2
The news said that two of the three were "Muslim converts". Any information on this? That would add a different dimension to the terror angle.
Posted by: David Caskey at September 05, 2007 07:14 AM (G5i3t)
3
Weren't the UK bombers (including the Glasgow attackers) intent upon making fuel air explosives, and not simply TATP explosives? They failed to get the right mix of explosives, fuel, and air loads to detonate properly.
Posted by: lawhawk at September 05, 2007 09:40 AM (a8MXW)
4
al Qaeda has lost much in the way of trained and experienced upper-echelon personnel in Iraq and, to a lesser degree, Afghanistan. Not only in bomb and materials (like the Ricin plot in the UK), but in basic COINTEL work that should serve as a mainstay of all levels of their main organization. And as they made their affiliate system to depend upon the best training to come from al Qaeda, itself, the ability to regenerate the skills from the immediate system, even if available, is time consuming.
With that said, their contacts with Hezbollah that has training organizations dispersed globally may require some rapproachment with them so as to send aQ folks through those camps. Places like Lebanon are well known, and Syria, but Bosnia, Algeria, Chechnya, and the Tri-Border Area of South America allows Hezbollah to have a difficult to track down and end training and financing system.
The agents that aQ trained in the mid to late 1990's are mostly gone and that includes the cadre that helped fight the Soviets. Waziristan is very difficult to get to and is forcing a reliance upon more local fighters, that may not be savvy enough to actually be inventive with their work. The Chechnya operation is in the deep freeze, due to the manpower drain of aQ into Iraq. Similarly their old camps in Kosovo and Albania are dedicated to getting a few recruits basic skills, but not much else. Abu Sayyaf and the Moros are in a dagger fight with the Philippine government and JI and other Pakistani groups are looking at Kashmir more than the West.
aQ can ill afford to take a training hiatus *now* and skilled operatives not coming back increases the risk of operations and lowers overall organizational effectiveness and skill levels. We forget that equipment is cheap,
but training and keeping effective personnel is very, very expensive.
Posted by: ajacksonian at September 05, 2007 10:01 AM (oy1lQ)
5
As ajacksonian said - training effective cadres and having them survive long enough to pass on their skills is difficult if the new troops keep getting killed. And while the internet is wonderful for passing on information to those who have the basics in a difficult and potentially dangerous subject, I would imagine that the internet is a poor way to pass on basic skills in this to the new recruit. Only training under the eye of a skilled trainer is going to be useful, to insure that bad habits are not picked up. A self-guided course has the risk that the recruit may skip some of the boring preliminary instruction and pass on quickly to the fun stuff. I don't know anything about making bombs, but I would speculate that getting it right everytime is a non-appeallable requirement. And this does not discount that the internet sites may be hacked to change some of the instructions just slightly - enough to make the bombmaker's career very short or make the product inert.
And other nations may not have quite the NYT qualms about intelligence matters and what is cricket and what isn't. The French, for example, come to mind as a nation that doesn't mind fighting dirty so long as a proper epigram is in readiness should the information ever get out.
To summarize: there is no substitute for actual training and experience in difficult technical matters, and bombmaking and operational planning are both technical matters that cannot be picked up on the fly after skimming some websites at work.
Posted by: Mikey NTH at September 05, 2007 04:39 PM (Wt5EU)
6
Thanks, Peter "my eyes glaze over" Glaser. A summary and a link or pasting of the website address would have done very well, thank you very much.
Posted by: Mikey NTH at September 05, 2007 06:33 PM (Wt5EU)
7
A terrorist plot foiled and it didn't even require invading and occupying a country in the Middle East. Almost seems impossible to imagine.
Posted by: The Voice of Reason at September 05, 2007 09:39 PM (K1Emm)
8
Peter, your link dump was excessive, and has been removed. Please keep comments relatively brief and easy to read, and if that isn't possible, please post links instead.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 05, 2007 10:31 PM (HcgFD)
9
Jacksonian, training is always an issue when your first order to a new recruit is, "go kill yourself and take as many of the enemy as you can with you." The Japanese learned this over 60 years ago. The Muslims still haven't.
But, why should we worry? The war on terror is just a bumper sticker. John Edwards said so.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 05, 2007 10:55 PM (viASe)
10
Watch Pakistan's role in this one - possibly more relevant given its connection to virtually all attacks apart from the Glasgow airport charade.
Posted by: Mary at September 06, 2007 04:46 AM (cuZEu)
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September 04, 2007
There They Go Again
Over at
Hot Air, Bryan has a nice catch this morning about UPI-alleged attack on a power-generating plant in southern Baghdad.
Bryan has a contact that works at the plant, and states it was not attacked when UPI ran the article, that they were not damaged nearly as bad as UPI states, and was only attacked two days later.
Per Bryan's request, I contacted the Army PAO in that sector, and found out that there was indeed an attack that day, on a power substation in that sector:
The attack on the substation definitely happened, as did the attack on the fire truck. I just saw photos of the burned out building and fire engine.
But, it is a small facility, and the article exaggerates the impact of the attack. Did people lose power as a result? Probably- those serviced in that immediate neighborhood. But, power is intermittent throughout Doura, so to insinuate that the loss of this station is the cause of a city-wide loss of electricity isn't exactly accurate either. It sounds like another example of one smaller event happening, but then being made into more than it actually was.
The main Doura power plant is still operating per normal output.
There is a huge difference, of course, between substations, which are small relay stations commonly found distributing power to adjoining residential and commercial districts here in the United States as elsewhere in the world, and power stations, where coal, other fuels, or nuclear power is used to generate energy in a much, much larger facility.
Details, details.
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1
Great post! Your story on the largely phony UPI story reminds me to ask whether you have ever heard from Scott Horton over at Harper's relative to what sure looked like another Beauchamp fantasy.
Posted by: Terry at September 04, 2007 01:23 PM (DMnkh)
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Terry,
Harper's and Horton have apparently decided that not answering my inquiries is their preferred course of action.
That, of course, doesn't stop anything, it just makes it take longer to find answers from other sources.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 04, 2007 01:37 PM (0BhZ5)
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Your first version of this post said "This never happened."
Now, you find out that something did happen but you quibble about the definition of substations and power plants and you have the nerve to suggest that UPI is guilty of botching the story.
Seems to me no one has the whole story and its better for all of us to take some time to absorb all the facts as they come to light instead of panicking at the first rumor of this or that.
Posted by: Spinsterina at September 04, 2007 03:34 PM (tiOPQ)
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"you quibble about the definition of substations and power plants"
substation: http://education.jlab.org/sitetour/substation.l.jpg
power plant (in fact, the one in question): http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/photogallery/gallery_40/photo09.html
Note that the first merely transfers electrical power, while the second GENERATES electricity. Note, especially, the presence of smokestacks, in the second photo, and the absence of same in the first.
In my county we have dozens of substations, but not a single power plant. Several times a year, a substation is put out of commission by lightning or a wayward and unfortunate raccoon; this is not news. If a power plant were put out of commission, it would be.
Hardly a "quibble."
Posted by: notropis at September 04, 2007 06:56 PM (7hwNb)
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but you quibble about the definition of substations and power plants
Huh? There is no quibbling possible. Substations don't generate power. Period. They are small and serve a neighborhood sized area. Period.
They're used to knock the 40Kv stuff down to lower voltage for local distribution.
Do you know anything at all about power systems? It doesn't sound like it.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at September 04, 2007 09:16 PM (NiDeC)
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Choose Your Preferred Narrative, but Quit Attacking the Troops
If you are a supporter of the on-going counter-insurgency plan in Iraq, you can find all sorts of news to support why we should stay in Iraq.
You could start with President Bush's al Asad photo-op yesterday, where the President, Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, Ambassador Crocker, and Commanding General Petraeus met with Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, Presidnet Talabani, and Vice Presidents Medhi and al Hashemi. Critics point out that the meeting was a merely a six-hour stop and photo-op for the President, and as such, was a public relations stunt. That the brief visit was designed as a public relations tool is beyond doubt. The undeniable fact remains that al Anbar, a province deemed all but lost according to classified Marine Corps Intelligence reports leaked to the press just a year ago, has now become so quiet that our leaders and the leaders of Iraq knew that the base was safe enough for a public meeting, without any apparent fear of a rocket or mortar attack by insurgents, or of suicide attacks by terrorists, or of anti-aircraft missiles being fired at the two large jets bringing in the American delegation, or the helicopters that (I presume) brought in the Iraqi senior leadership.
In addition to this public meeting of leaders in an area once deemed lost just a short time ago, U.S. casualties in Iraq have dropped in half at a time they were expected to actually rise, al Qaeda-aligned terrorists and insurgent groups have either turned, or become hounded and hunted in al Anbar, Diyala, and elsewhere. Some supporters are suggesting that what future history may regard as the turning point towards victory is either occurring, or may have already occurred.
For war detractors in our political classes, in the media and on the activist left, the war was lost long ago, and every day merely means another American mother will lose her soldier-child in a lost cause. To them, the war possibility of a turn-around in Iraq is unthinkable, any apparent progress is an illusion, or merely a matter of temporary gains before an inevitable fall.
Both sides are looking to make what they can of the much-anticipated "Petraeus Report" (which, as Sheppard Sheffield points out, is actually something of a myth).
Those on the right will take the local and regional gains made in al Anbar and Diyala and other areas of the country as signs of success, and corners possibility turned. Those on the left will note what is essentially a British surrender to Shia militias in Basra, the decidedly mixed security results in Baghdad itself, the continuing meddling of Iran, and what is largely a failure of the central Iraqi government to make significant progress towards reconciliation as signs of inevitable failure. As in any on-going conflict, both sides have plenty of ammunition to continue supporting their pre-conceived opinions, and they have a right to share those opinions.
What I would prefer not to see, however, is the continuation of a disturbing trend by some in the media and blogosphere towards unfairly mischaracterizing and in some cases blatantly attacking the credibility of our military, in most cases without just cause.
The techniques used to attack the credibility of the military vary widely.
Some come from minor, conspiracy-minded fringe players and are easily brushed aside with a laugh, but others, provided with a more legitimizing platform in a national news outlet, are more troubling.
Salon's Glenn Greenwald is one example, as he blatantly lied back in June as he accused of military public affairs system of deception when he stated:
All of a sudden, every time one of the top military commanders describes our latest operations or quantifies how many we killed, the enemy is referred to, almost exclusively now, as "Al Qaeda."
A simple look at the actual press releases from the PAO system immediately and conclusively debunked Greenwald's claim, but it has not stopped him, nor other critics, from attacking the credibility of the military, even as they studiously avoid almost every sympathetic media misstep.
The New Republic ran a series of brutal fantasies concocted by a U.S. Army private as real without any attempt to fact check them, instigated a cover-up that purposefully concealed the identity of sources that they said supported the story, arguably deceived these same sources, and hid countering testimony collected from other experts, only to blame the military for stone-walling their investigation. In fact, the author of this fiction has the ability to answer media requests, and instead has thus far chosen not to take them.
But minor media and bloggers aren't the only ones attacking our troops.
Hollywood directors are releasing the first of a seriesanti-war films, and the vangard of this effort, Redacted, redacts reality to push an anti-soldier, anti-war political agenda.
The leader of the United States Senate declared that the "surge" was lost before it even began, and declared in April that he would not believe any future news provided by General Petraeus that contradicted that, essentially assaulting General Petraeus' integrity. Later, John Murtha lied while claiming that the White House was using General Petraeus as a political prop, and criticized Petraeus for not meeting with Congress. Not only had General Petraeus met with Congress, he actually took time out of his schedule to brief Murtha and Pelosi privately.
Both sides, right and left, have their own political agendas. Sympathizers in the blogosphere and in media organizations large and small bring their own biases to the table as they discuss war policy. That is understood, expected, and perfectly understandable.
What is not understandable is why critics feel it is necessary to attack the troops as they attack the mission. They claim to be able to support the troops while critcizing the mission, but in practice, that is often not the case.
When General Petreaus comes back to the United States to brief the President and Congress, he will not do so as a partisan. He promises that, “The Ambassador and I are going to give it to them straight and then allow the folks at either end of Pennsylvania Avenue make what clearly is a national decision.“
He will speak for the American military, as the Commanding General of our forces in Iraq. He will not speak as a Republican General, or a Democratic General, but as a General of the Army of the United States of America. He will provide the facts, and let us discuss, decipher, and no doubt, spin what he reports.
Fine. Let us spin the data and the findings to support our political viewpoints.
But please, let's do so without attacking the integrity of those who serve, which is a tactic becoming more common, and repulsive, as time goes by.
Update:: corrected Matthew Sheffield's name in the text above.
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1
Interesting article however you didn't mention the terrible increase in civilian deaths. 1800 last month alone.
Posted by: Archie1954 at September 04, 2007 12:04 PM (HMIcA)
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that terrible increase was due to the 512 deaths due to the suicide bombing of Yazdi. This occurred outside of the zones targeted by the surge.
And, while these civilian deaths due to terrorism are awful, were we to withdraw just what would Al-Queda and Iranian Shia fanatics do?
face it, we are now fighting the same people who bombed the US, blew up Khobar Towers, etc., etc. Surrender and retreat are not options.
Posted by: iconoclast at September 04, 2007 12:56 PM (TzLpv)
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Good post, Bob.
I linked it and added my thoughts about why the left has been so vicious in their attacks on the character of our troops.
Archie1954,
The August death toll was skewed by the August 14 attack on the Yazidi village. But for the 350 to 500 deaths from that event, the death toll would have decreased significantly in August. The 1,800 figure may be technically accurate, but statistically skewed by a single "outlier" event.
It is also worth noting that, at the time of that attack, tens of thousands of Shiites were marching through Sunni neighborhoods in a pilgrimage that saw no terrorist attacks and no deaths due to terrorist activity. The bad guys instead chose a village located near the Syrian border, in the middle-of-nowhere Kurdistan. They avoided attacking the pilgrimage because they couldn't have pulled it off; they attacked a village in the boonies because it was the only wad they had to shoot.
Still, the population of Iraq is about 24 million. A death toll of 1,800 represents an attrition rate of 0.0075%. That is an infinitesimally small number. Any significant event can skew small numbers in a big way.
Posted by: Dave at September 04, 2007 01:04 PM (38EUg)
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Re: "When General Petreaus comes back to the United States to brief the President and Congress, he will not do so as a partisan. He promises that, “The Ambassador and I are going to give it to them straight and then allow the folks at either end of Pennsylvania Avenue make what clearly is a national decision.“ "
I'll wait and see if the General's testimony is anything but a carbon copy of a Tony Snow news conference. If all I hear are identical talking points from the Rush Limbaugh Show, then we will all know that the General's script was written, not at the Pentagon, but in the White House.
I predict we will get nothing but the standard Administration line:
The Iraqi central government is a failure.
However.
It might work some day.
So.
Let's continue to run ot the clock to January 2009 so George W. Bush can get out of town while still claiming "we were on the road to victory when I was President".
And all the Conservatives answered, "Amen!"
Posted by: Philadelphia Steve at September 04, 2007 01:07 PM (IrTYC)
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Upon winning the election in 2008, Steve urges the immediate firing of the upper military command, to be replaced w/ those more suitable to the DNC/Kossacks.
Posted by: Techie at September 04, 2007 01:13 PM (T+8Gr)
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LOL @ Steve
If the General doesn't give a bad report, he must be a lying BooshChimpHitler Stooge.
Or part of the Boosh Cheney Halliburton junta.
Or, something.
Posted by: Dave at September 04, 2007 01:28 PM (38EUg)
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But we already know the General didn't even write his own report. The White House did. So why should we expect anything different?
Posted by: MattM at September 04, 2007 01:40 PM (TqZrA)
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MattM, do you have
any proof at all to back your assertion?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 04, 2007 01:44 PM (0BhZ5)
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Supporting the troops has always been there. Supporting the imbeciles IN CHARGE has been our complaint. Is that so difficult for simpletons to understand? The managers of the war are incompetent - the soldiers are heros. The soldiers have been asked to do an impossible task by a group of managers who never had the urge - or loyalty to their country - to wear a uniform. To me, that is really simple to grasp.
Posted by: Tom at September 04, 2007 02:08 PM (mtC8Q)
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From
Influence Peddler, quoting H.R. 2206:
(A) The President shall submit an initial report, in classified and unclassified format, to the Congress, not later than July 15, 2007, assessing the status of each of the specific benchmarks established above, and declaring, in his judgment, whether satisfactory progress toward meeting these benchmarks is, or is not, being achieved.
(B)
The President, having consulted with the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Defense, the Commander, Multi-National Forces Iraq, the United States Ambassador to Iraq, and the Commander of U.S. Central Command, will prepare the report and submit the report to Congress.
(C) If the President’s assessment of any of the specific benchmarks established above is unsatisfactory, the President shall include in that report a description of such revisions to the political, economic, regional, and military components of the strategy, as announced by the President on January 10, 2007. In addition, the President shall include in the report, the advisability of implementing such aspects of the bipartisan Iraq Study Group, as he deems appropriate.
(D)
The President shall submit a second report to the Congress, not later than September 15, 2007, following the same procedures and criteria outlined above.
Later in the legislation:
(3) TESTIMONY BEFORE CONGRESS.—Prior to the submission of the President’s second report on September 15, 2007, and at a time to be agreed upon by the leadership of the Congress and the Administration, the United States Ambassador to Iraq and the Commander, Multi-National Forces Iraq will be made available to testify in open and closed sessions before the relevant committees of the Congress.
It's pretty clear to me who is supposed to be writing a report to the Congress, and when, and what the reports are supposed to contain.
If there is a belief that General Petraeus will have the White House prepare his testimony, then some evidence of that needs to be presented.
Posted by: Dave at September 04, 2007 02:26 PM (38EUg)
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There is no evidence that Petraeus will have GWB or the White House prepare his testimony. The moronic libs believe that because "they heard it on the internet somewhere". But it does give them a way of discrediting the report if it is positive.
Remember, the Democrats have invested everything in defeat. They will do anything and everything to make that happen.
Posted by: Steve at September 04, 2007 02:43 PM (qmI1J)
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The August numbers may also include the 500 plus enemies killed by US forces that month. We had a very good month.
http://northshorejournal.org/LinkedImages/2007/09/simmins-surge.JPG
Posted by: Chuck Simmins at September 04, 2007 03:24 PM (HeNaU)
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This is the same Patraeus who said the Iraqi army was standing up so we could soon stand down just before the 2004 US elections.
How did he lose his partisanship in 3 short years?
Just askin'.
Posted by: Robert at September 04, 2007 03:38 PM (2Vgu3)
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Remember, they see every American death as a Democrat victory.
Iraq, Katrina regardless of who's fault it is The Left rejoices when an American dies.
Posted by: EvilDave at September 04, 2007 03:47 PM (Vmj9c)
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The price of oil just took a spike up on news of expected storms in the Atlantic. What do you think will happen if Iran gets control of Iraq and continues on to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia? Anti-Semitism is rampant in Europe fueled by radical Islam and the rants of Amadinejad. Wake up you liberals before you lose the ability to make your inane points.
Posted by: Bill Dempsey at September 04, 2007 04:26 PM (sJKrh)
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The painstaking work of truth is tedious to the simple mind.
Lies are easy shrift. Who wants to think everything through to a mature, if not 100% satisfactory conclusion? Who can know enough? Everybody's lying anyway. Right?
"Stop attacking the troops!" is well-provoked, but who, exactly, has the power to make the simple-minded reporter/person stop talking?
Might as well declare a war on drugs. Cuz if someone's buying it, someone's gonna sell it.
Posted by: Joan of Argghh! at September 04, 2007 04:42 PM (8F+iI)
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January, 2007: "For a nation bitterly divided over Iraq, the one point of agreement seems to be that Lt. Gen. David Petraeus is the right commander for U.S. forces in Baghdad."
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/23/AR2007012301570.html)
September, 2007:
Quite a different story, at least from the cut-and-run crowd.
"Support the troops who support what we believe!" seems to be the order of the day of the anti-war left. The "reality-based community" is anything but.
Posted by: ExUrbanKevin at September 04, 2007 04:47 PM (ppKzH)
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"Remember, they see every American death as a Democrat victory.Iraq, Katrina regardless of who's fault it is The Left rejoices when an American dies."
That's a hilarious one. Because it was revealed today that Dick Cheney Chief of Staff David Addington once observed that the White House was just "one bomb away from getting rid of that obnoxious [FISA] court."
You can try and paint Democrats as anti-American. But it's your own side that's happy to kill Americans (both here and in Iraq) as long as it suits their political goals.
Posted by: MattM at September 04, 2007 06:45 PM (TqZrA)
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MattM, have you a source for the Addington quote, or did you simply pull it out of the first available bodily orifice?
Posted by: C-C-G at September 04, 2007 07:02 PM (viASe)
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I still want General P. to appear before a joint session of Congress and announce, "Ladies and Gentlemen, we are winning the war."
Just to see Nancy Pelosi's eyes finally pop out of thier sockets and to see Harry Reid's head explode.
Posted by: Upper Darby Steve at September 04, 2007 07:12 PM (PmWhP)
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That's
Matthew Sheffield
Not Matthew Sheppard.
Matthew Shepard (one "p") was the gay man beaten to death in 1998 in Wyoming.
Posted by: DWPittelli at September 04, 2007 07:13 PM (9eCQU)
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Here's your source: It's from a new book by Jack Goldsmith, a right-wing lawyer who was named by the Bush administration as the head of the DOJ's Office of Legal Counsel.
If you're interested in pre-ordering it, you can do it here:
http://www.amazon.com/Terror-Presidency-Judgment-Inside-Administration/dp/0393065502/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-6396425-7646247?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1188905584&sr=8-1
But I'm sure that's too reality-based for this crowd.
Posted by: MattM at September 04, 2007 07:13 PM (TqZrA)
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There are no excerpts on the Amazon page you gave. Since the book is not released yet, you cannot have obtained the quote from reading the book except in the highly unlikely event that you are a professional book reviewer.
Please provide your primary source for the quote above. "Primary source," by the way, means "where you read the quote," not a site where the quote does not appear.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 04, 2007 07:19 PM (viASe)
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Redacted was created by Hollywood types, but they can't make a movie without money. Redacted is funded by Marc Cuban, owner of the Dallas Mavericks.
Posted by: Don at September 04, 2007 07:30 PM (mqsH/)
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I can give you all the sources you want. The primary source is an excerpt that Goldsmith himself released during this interview with the New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/09/magazine/09rosen.html?_r=1&pagewanted=1&oref=slogin
Posted by: MattM at September 04, 2007 07:31 PM (TqZrA)
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""Primary source," by the way, means "where you read the quote," not a site where the quote does not appear."
That would be too reality based!
Posted by: jdkchem at September 04, 2007 07:34 PM (cgn+g)
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In case you don't want to read ALL the amazingly damming first-person accounts, the quote I referenced is on page 6.
Spin it all you like - Goldsmith is a hard-core right winger who fully believes in Bush's War on Terror and the War in Iraq. He thinks the Geneva Convention doesn't apply to war criminals. And he approved the illegal NSA wiretapping.
Posted by: MattM at September 04, 2007 07:38 PM (NZ/aJ)
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Thank you.
Here's some more illuminating quotes from the NY
Times article, by the way:
Goldsmith has recounted how, from his first weeks on the job, he fought vigorously against an expansive view of executive power championed by officials in the White House
I admired and respected Addington, even when I thought his judgment was crazy.
There is also more than one description of disagreements between Goldsmith and Addington, giving weight to the theory that Goldsmith harbors a personal antipathy towards Addington, as well as towards President Bush.
And please, spare me the stereotypical meme about "he works for the man, he must like/respect/admire him." The person who has never worked for someone he dislikes has lived a blessed life.
In short, the book, at least from the review, appears to be the usual political hatchet-job. And you can ask George Tenet about how well those work out. He worked for Bush too, you know, and he wrote a book, and that book has been pretty much discredited by the weight of evidence.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 04, 2007 07:43 PM (viASe)
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Who does the Geneva Convention apply to? Everyone?
Everyone you want it to?
Posted by: Synova at September 04, 2007 07:47 PM (8HO37)
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The Geneva Conventions apply to lawful combatants. For the treatment of unlawful combatants, see André, John, Maj, British Army.
Posted by: Fox2! at September 04, 2007 08:29 PM (mS51q)
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Geneva convention applies to
2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:
(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; Al Queda-Baathist terrorst --NOPE
(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; Al Queda-Baathist terrorst --NOPE
(c) That of carrying arms openly; Al Queda-Baathist terrorst --NOPE
(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. Al Queda-Baathist terrorst --NOPE
Posted by: red at September 04, 2007 08:32 PM (x3Y0C)
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How did he lose his partisanship in 3 short years?
Just askin'.
Those comments came well before the al-Askiriya mosque bombing of February 2006. As a student of history, you understand what that event did for Al Qaeda and how it changed the conflict. Don't you?
Maybe the student stopped learning when the Washington Post declared Anbar was gone and Senator Reid said the war was lost.
When you find an answer you want, stop asking questions. huh?
Posted by: Dave at September 04, 2007 08:46 PM (GF971)
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Let's not change the subject - as much as you'd like to. You can write this off as a political hack job - but juse because someone disagrees with their boss or someone they work for, doesn't mean what they write isn't true.
The fact that he's donating all profits from the book to charity speak to the fact that he's not in this for cash. And as a Harvard Law professor, he's obviouly not in it for any new paying gig.
George "Slam Dunk" Tenet tried to shift blame from himself and got caught. That's why he did what he did. Goldsmith isn't being blamed for anything.
So what likely gain would he have to lie about all this? And if it's false, where's the administration's rebutal?
Your flippant dismissal is nothing but pure conjecture - seeing as you haven't read the book and all.
What it boils down to is an even stronger case that the neocons are in this for political reasons - Americans and American troops be dammed.
But of course, you'd never admit that - despite all the evidence to the contrary.
Posted by: MatM at September 04, 2007 09:15 PM (pLDDh)
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DePalma is a hack. He completely ruined The Black Dahlia. The pretentious little documentary about the killing that he stuck onto the DVD of that movie is laughable, no matter how gory. His fondness for such bloody fare makes me wonder if doing films like Redacted allows him to have his cake and eat it, too--in that he can satisfy his fondness for sadism even as he feigns outrage. Pervert actually means something, sometimes.
Posted by: clazy at September 04, 2007 09:55 PM (SI8Da)
35
A former Clinton adminstration official, who asked not to be named, has written a book that says MattM is a comment-hijacking troll.
The book has not been released yet, but you can take it from me, because [snif]that is what the[chuckle] New York Times [giggle]is reporting...
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaa!
Tenent? What does Tenent, or a previous WH staffer, have to do with The subject of this post? Oh, right, it doesn't, and here lies MattM's true motivation... fling a little poo and hope somebody reacts.
Go away little monkey, let the grown-ups talk now.
Posted by: Dark Jethro at September 04, 2007 10:04 PM (qDxag)
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Ah Dark Jetro, you're a caricature of yourself.
First, you pull the oh-so-tired conservative hack job of insulting the messenger when you have no response to the proof at hand. Nice one. I couldn't have written a more cliched response myself.
And second, absolutely everythying about your post is completely wrong. The staffer isn't "unnamed." It's Jack Goldsmith. I know that's a multi-syllabic name, which is tough for you, but stay with me. Second, it's not what the NY Times said. It's an excerpt (that means quote) from the book. And the comment about Tenent was in response to C-C-G's Tenent comment.
So maybe try reading the thread before you show your stupidity. (Assuming you can read.)
Now go away little monkey and let the grown-ups talk.
Posted by: MatM at September 04, 2007 10:53 PM (pLDDh)
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Here's a concept: address the issues instead of attacking each other.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 04, 2007 10:58 PM (HcgFD)
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Actually, I'd like to retract that last post for most of you. Confederate Yankke runs a decent blog here, and while I basically disagree with him nearly 100% of the time, he sticks to the issues, doesn't name call (like Dark Jathro just regrettably got me to stoop to), and stands by his viewpoint (which I respect).
We need more honest debate in this country on both sides of the aisle. And in the limited time I've been reading CY, that seems to be the case, specifically from him and some of his posters.
Posted by: MatM at September 04, 2007 11:06 PM (pLDDh)
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I have a hard time getting worked up over a stupid comment. I don't know the context. Everyone says dumb things now and again...I will bet every poster who has said that all muslims should die really is just voicing frustration...and that a member of the current administration has said something inpolitic and rather dumb doesn't really make much of a difference on the major issue of Iraq.
I could easily imagine getting mad and saying something comparable about the Dem candidates for President, but I certainly would be horrified if it were to come true.
So, as CY has encouraged all of us, let's talk about why SOME in opposition to the war feel it acceptable to smear our troops as part of that anti-war effort. Is it because they cannot argue against the fact that we, now, fight against agressors who DID attack the USA, both on our shores and off. Regardless of whether or not this conclusion of the first gulf war was called for, that particular war is over. We now are fighting jihadis and assorted Iranian puppets--both of whom are our enemies.
Or is it because the DePalma's cannot argue against the 100% certainty of a near-genocidal bloodbath in Iraq were we to leave. And while a Rwanda-class genocide would be a gold mine for movie makers, selling that future is tough.
Posted by: iconoclast at September 04, 2007 11:27 PM (PT9cG)
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MatM (or is it MattM?):
Your comment, "you haven't read the book" smacks of the pot calling the kettle black. The book hasn't been released yet, so you haven't read it either. Yet you throw out quotes from it and get all up in arms when I pull quotes from the same source you do.
And his "case," as you so flippantly put it, boils down to "he said, she said." Addington's comment wasn't recorded, and at this time there is no one corroborating Goldsmith's account. That brings it into the realm of hearsay, at least among fair-minded and intelligent people, and as such is hardly a firm foundation for accusations such as the one you are preferring against an entire political party.
In short, your quote could be nothing more than a figment of one man's imagination in order to blacken the name of someone with whom he disagrees. If you've read CY as long as you claim to, you should be aware that this sort of activity against the Bush administration is becoming relatively common... see CY's excellent articles on Beauchamp, Scott Thomas and Horton, Scott, for examples.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 04, 2007 11:46 PM (viASe)
41
Ah, but C-C-G, you were the one who first played the "You haven't read the book unless you're a professional book reader" card. I was just tossing that one back at ya.
And yes, this is a he-said/she-said situation. But my earlier point still stands - what does Goldsmith have to gain from attacking Addington? He's a conservative tried and true - so if he wanted to advance down that path, he certainly wouldn't be defaming some of the most poserful conservatives around. He's not doing it for the money - he's giving all proceeds away. And he's not doing it to save face - he hasn't been accused of any wrong doing.
It seems as if he was just doing it to, as you put it, "blacken the name of someone with whom he disagrees" he'd be doing himself more harm than good. (Unless he's suddenly angling for liberal backing, which, given his still-held beliefs about the war, the Geneva Convention, etc, is highly doubtful.)
So I don't see a logical reason why he would be lying.
Posted by: MatM at September 05, 2007 12:01 AM (pLDDh)
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MatM, you can't be dense enough not to see a reason for Goldsmith to fabricate a story.
Human Nature 101: the desire to make someone with whom you have a personal or professional disagreement look bad.
Yes, he may be doing himself more harm than good. See Tenet, George. That sort of thing happens all the time when emotion trumps reason.
Even if,
just for the sake of argument, we postulate that Addington did say you accuse him of, where does that get us? Are you going to take the statement of one person, in an administrative and not policy-making role in the White House, and make it emblematic of the entire Administration?
Howard Dean once
said "I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for." Note that there are multiple sources for that statement, of which I link only one above.
Can we, therefore, based on Dean's position as chairman of the Democratic National Committee, claim that the Democrats are the party of hatred? Would you permit me to take that one statement--which is back by far better evidence that Goldsmith's--and use it to characterize an entire party? I highly doubt it. Yet that is precisely what you are attempting to do with the Addington quote.
Your straw man is falling apart at the seams. I recommend you abandon it.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 05, 2007 08:46 AM (viASe)
43
Ugh, does this stuff really work with anyone? Don't you guys think we've moved past the point where claiming that criticizing the White House and it's water carriers is equivalent to criticizing "the troops"?
Enough Generals and others serving have been as critical of Patraeus and his already silly claims taht it just doesn't stand up to intelligent scrutiny.
The White House is writing his report, no doubt coaching him because with Bush and the fighting Keyboardists here...
IRAQ FOREVER!!!! YIPPEEE!!!!
Posted by: Danjr0802 at September 05, 2007 09:08 AM (HI+XQ)
44
As one who works in (but not for... contractor) government, you guys saying the President is writing Gen. Petraeus's report have it exactly backwards to reality.
Stuff is written by people down the food chain, passed up, looked over (sometimes), approved, and "published" under the approved signature.
If there's congruence between what the WH and Petraeus say, it's because the WH is using the General's words, not the other way around.
But the General probably (most likely) is not writing his own words either. Some Lt. Colonel or Captain is probably doing the actual composition.
I'd bet a month's paycheck the General DOES read it though.
Posted by: Dan S at September 05, 2007 09:28 AM (A1bd0)
45
Trackbacked by The Thunder Run -
Web Reconnaissance for 09/05/2007
A short recon of whatÂ’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.
Posted by: David M at September 05, 2007 10:17 AM (gIAM9)
46
There seems to be a pattern here with vicious military haters such as MattM. For those old enough think back to Vietnam. At first the left blamed the civilian leaders like Johnson and Nixon but as time went by they began smearing the ones in charge on the ground, mostly the generals. As the war went on the left then began smearing the troops themselves. The exact same thing is happening in this war.
The longer the war takes the harder it is for the left to hide their true feelings about our military. How many times have we heard that our soldiers are uneducated dupes? Even though it's been proven they have a better education than society as a whole. It's at a point now where they can't hide their seething rage and irrational hatred for anyone in uniform.
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at September 05, 2007 11:39 AM (Lgw9b)
47
CI
As long as the troops can be thought of as "dupes", the left supports them. But as it becomes clear that the vast majority of the troops believe in the Iraq mission AND that these same troops are well-spoken, intelligent, educated, etc. THEN the troops themselves become targets for propaganda attacks.
Because, after all, winning power is the most important thing.
Posted by: iconoclast at September 05, 2007 11:52 AM (8LvTp)
48
That's a hilarious one. Because it was revealed today that Dick Cheney Chief of Staff David Addington once observed that the White House was just "one bomb away from getting rid of that obnoxious [FISA] court."
Okay, I really have to ask, because I'm honestly curious: How does the quote above indicate in any way that Addington would be "happy to kill Americans (both here and in Iraq) as long as it suits [his] political goals?"
A quick reading of the linked NYT piece makes it pretty clear that Addington considered FISA, Congress, and many in Justice to be obstacles to waging effective war against al Qaeda. He thought, in fact, that they would
cost American lives.
His quote isn't a celebration that soon terrorist actions would make his job easier, but a cyncial observation that the country was one major terror attack away from sweeping aside what he considered obnoxious obstacles to preventing those attacks.
That I think he was wrong about the value of the rule of law and civil liberties doesn't give me the right to ascribe false motives to him.
And while we shouldn't impugn leftists' motives without cause either, I have observed a hell of a lot of gloating about American casualties from the antiwar types and a hell of a lot of cynical use of casualty figures from certain members of Congress.
Posted by: Angry Overeducated Catholic at September 05, 2007 12:19 PM (f3DyB)
49
Great Post, I agree entirely.
Specifically, I would add the vitriolic comments of late regarding the General. It's incredible to me that "progressives" claim to not bash the military when they slander the #1 soldier in Iraq on a daily basis.
Whether it's accusing him of falsifying the bios of Congressmen visiting Iraq that were handed out to the troops, or that he's lying about his numbers, or that he singlehandedly had the NIE change its report in some underhanded way to make the surge look better.
DailyKos, CarpetBagger and Think Progress are all about assassinating Petraeus' character.
And why is that?
Because the success of his surge will cost the Democrats talking points.
Posted by: N. Lihach at September 05, 2007 04:19 PM (j0TCV)
50
Let's remember that NONE of the Joint Chiefs stood up to Bush Shinseki alone tried to speak reason and he got fired.
Posted by: John Ryan at September 06, 2007 08:07 PM (TcoRJ)
51
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight, John.
Shinseki said 100,000 more troops. Petraeus is doing the job with 20,000 additional troops--even Democrats say so.
And you call Shinseki's idea "reason"? That in and of itself shows your lack of intellectual prowess.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 08, 2007 11:04 AM (viASe)
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September 02, 2007
The Truther Behind the Traitor
Former Hollywood agent, Pat Dollard
gets to the bottom line.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:57 PM
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1
At 11:15 (CST) the link to Pat Dollard's column produces this error:
Error 404. Page Not Found.
Whoops. It appears this page no longer exists or has been moved.
Posted by: John Pennylegion at September 03, 2007 11:21 AM (SnRTM)
Posted by: Dave at September 03, 2007 11:44 AM (/AAA6)
3
Pat's got some sort of URL issues... I wonder if the Drudge link yesterday gave him issues, as I'm now on my third link for this post
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 03, 2007 11:47 AM (HcgFD)
4
You can access the story on Jeff Rense`s website
http://www.rense.com/general78/we.htm
Posted by: Pat at September 04, 2007 09:12 AM (qsKdJ)
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