December 10, 2008
CNN's MRAP Story Feasts on Ignorance in Effort to Demonize Marine Corps
Once again, CNN puts its ignorance and dislike of the military
center stage:
The U.S. Marine Corps knew of the threat posed by roadside bombs before the start of the Iraq war, yet did nothing to buy protective vehicles for troops, according to a report to be released by the Pentagon.
Additionally, Marine leaders in 2005 decided to buy up-armored, or reinforced, Humvees instead of Mine Resistant Ambush-Protected vehicles to shield troops in Iraq from mines and other explosives -- a decision that could have cost lives, according to the report obtained Tuesday by CNN.
The report by the Department of Defense inspector general was requested by the Marine Corps in early 2008 after a civilian employee with the service complained that bureaucratic delays undermined the program to develop the armored vehicles.
Inspectors found that the decision not to buy MRAP vehicles in 2005 stopped the Marine Corps Combat Development Command, the agency in charge of finding the best protective vehicle from troops in Iraq, from "developing a course of action ... to attempt to obtain funding for [MRAPs]," according to the report.
The report found that the Department of Defense knew before the war started in 2003 of the threats of mines and roadside bombs in Iraq but did nothing to acquire "MRAP-type" vehicles ahead of the invasion.
What the author of this CNN article fails to explain is that you can have either mobility, or you can have armor; you can't have both.
A vehicle that can withstand IEDs built from artillery shells is going to be too heavy (14 tons in some variations) to leave the main roads or even cross many of the world's bridges. The has two significant and lasting effects. It cedes the majority of territory to the insurgents, and also creates targeting funnels where ambushes can be concentrated, increasing the likelihood of Marines being hit by IEDs.
When insurgents know that they face a vehicle with limited mobility, they can then concentrate on building bigger or more effective types of IEDs to defeat that specific vehicle, while simultaneously using the majority or their forces to dominate the surrounding towns and villages.
Historically, the Marines have always chosen mobility over armor, using speed, tenacity, and tactics to overwhelm opposing forces with weapons systems lighter armed and armored than that of their more heavily armed and armored Army counterparts.
It is true that some Marines who died in HMMWVs because of IED strikes may very well have survived strikes by similar weapons on MRAPs, but at what cost?
Would they have had the mobility to strike al Qaeda and insurgent supply lines running though remote areas of the country, or find weapons caches located on farms and in fields far away from the hardened roads that MRAPs require?
Could Marines have penetrated communities and established relations with friendly Iraqis to develop a counterinsurgency program while hiding inside these metal beasts? The answer to these questions is a resounding "no."
MRAPs are great vehicles for their intended purpose of protecting their occupants against IEDS, but their mobility is horrific, and cedes the majority of the battlefield to the enemy, leaving the enemy to pick the time and place of engagement with American forces.
In short, an early deployment of MRAPs into the Iraqi theater of operations may have saved some lives in the short run, but it would have crippled the Marines ability to take the fight to the enemy and put the insurgency on the defensive.
MRAPS and similar vehicles have a time and a place, as does every weapons system, but they are not nearly mobile enough to be as useful in an offensive war against a lightly armed and mobile enemy as are the lighter and less armored HMMWV.
Of course, you don't have to take my word for it. Even Army soldiers used to more heavily armored equipment find the MRAPtoo heavy and slow:
And so we rolled out of FOB Falcon in those giant MRAPs. It seems that most of the seriously experienced combat soldiers do not like MRAPs. Yes, MRAPs are great for the main roads and convoys, but they are too big and too cumbersome, and they get stuck in mud that you could peddle a bicycle through. MRAPs are not offensive vehicles. There is no doubt MRAPs can save lives – they’re like giant vaults on wheels, though I did see the wreckage of one in Afghanistan that had been nearly obliterated. When we’re on the main roads, I love MRAPs, but we will never win wars or major battles with those things, or by staying on main roads. MRAPs need good roads. Good roads are bomb magnets. In Afghanistan, many of the Taliban scoot around on motorcycles, and there is no doubt that mobility is a weapon. We should melt most of the MRAPs down and forge that metal into killing machines like Strykers. The combat vets from 10th Mountain that day were also not fans of MRAPs. And though it’s easy to find MRAP-lovers, the hardcore fighters seem to want more mobility than steel.
Marines encumbered by MRAPs cannot take the battle to the enemy, and Marines that can't take the battle to the enemy will not win wars.
CNN's article is a poorly-researched hit piece designed to attack the credibility and judgement of the Marine Corps.
Perhaps before questioning the judgment of others, they should start by looking at their motivations and biases first.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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You can't argue with physics. I learned these elementary facts in high school. Even if you didn't learn them, it's intuitive to figure out that a panther can move more quickly than an elephant and get into tight places the elephant can't get into.
I am appalled by how ignorant journalists are. Instead of inquiring into the Marine Corps' reasoning about these vehicles, they just wanted to take a cheap shot.
Posted by: miriam at December 10, 2008 02:24 PM (QEaZv)
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"A civilian whistle-blower working with the Marine Corps on the MRAP program wrote a scathing report about delays in the procurement process in early 2008."
Hmmm... how exactly does one get to be a "whistle-blower?" What's the 401K plan like? Since they're not clear on this, can I guess that it's just a schmuck that works for the manufacturer and is passed that the USMC simply didn't buy his friggin' product?
Posted by: tsmonk at December 10, 2008 03:57 PM (E8R20)
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It doesn't surprise me at all that journalists don't know what they're talking about. That's normal. What is aggrevating though, is the necessity for long and complicated explanations they generate. Of course, these explanations are to people who are only marginally interested in listening to them and have no background on which to base an even small understanding on. The stupidity just goes on and on.
Posted by: Tonto at December 10, 2008 05:18 PM (Qv1xF)
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My position is "Don't DIS the Marines". Also, if the Marines need funding to have the best armored equipment, GET THE FUNDING TO THEM!!! Then let commanders decide what is the best in each given situation.
I am 100% thankful for those who serve in our armed forces, and I want them to have the best of the best in each given situation to achieve goals and protect and defend their lives.
The ins and outs of this sitch, I don't completely understand. But I support what it takes to keep our troops safe and achieve their objectives and want funding for it. That's REALLY the reason why we pay federal taxes: for our troops to be kept safe, etc., and to have the best of equipment, etc. Give it to them!! (And don't dis them... whoever would criticize our troops.)
Posted by: l at December 10, 2008 09:25 PM (tdrxf)
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I know from my days as a grunt that I would trade speed over flac jackets everytime and none of us wore the damn things.
Posted by: tjbbpgob at December 11, 2008 01:22 AM (I4yBD)
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I remember Wolf Blitzer interviewing a Marine approximately two years ago. It was just after the incident where an AAAVP7 was hit by a huge IED. Blew it clear off the ground and it landed upside down. This is a fully armored vehicle almost thirty feet long that weighs 22 tons. Wolf's first question to the Marine information officer was, "Would these Marine's be alive today if they had been in an uparmored HUMVEE?"
Posted by: Have Blue at December 11, 2008 03:53 AM (WuPk/)
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"The U.S. Marine Corps knew of the threat posed by roadside bombs before the start of the Iraq war..."
Not to be nit-picky, but we've known about the threat and dangers of road-side bombs since the advent of gunpowder! As CY noted, its a trade off between mobility and armor.
The real reason journalists create the demand for up-armored HMMWVs is a direct coorelation to the risk adverse society modern humans have become. In today's society, no one can be injured, no one can die and if someone does, someone else must take the blame. It is utter bull!
Quite frankly, we can make our soldier's completely impervious to all attacks, the problem is, they wouldn't be able to move more than a few yards a day because of the weight and mobility limitations.
I agree the loss of life is tragic, but it is war, and I expect that people will get hurt and die, we just need to stop trying to find someone to blame for it. Accept the risk or don't do it, but quit trying to make the world into a risk free society, it's a losing battle.
Posted by: David M at December 11, 2008 10:03 AM (gIAM9)
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OK... reality Check... Most of the guys I've talked to here would rather be in HMMWVs (1114 or 1151 variants) than the MRAP. Granted, the MRAP is impressive as far as being able to take a hit, buh the fact remains that most MRAPs, (what I call the "Uparmorded PT Cruiser") only carrys 4 to 6 people... in and when the 'shytte' hits, these things don't have a hell of a lot of manpower.... granted, they keep the guys alive, but what good is it if they get on site, and they only have 4 guys (besides crew) to deal with businesss? Thats my question...
Posted by: Big Country at December 11, 2008 05:58 PM (vuy4X)
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The mainstream media should stop sitting around getting drunk and trying to solve the world's problems and just report the f'n news.
Posted by: DoorHold at December 14, 2008 12:27 PM (DA32L)
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20 Terrorists Trained For Mumbai Still At Large
Bad news in the
Sydney Morning Herald:
POLICE in Mumbai said the 10 men who carried out the terrorist attacks in November were among 30 recruits selected for suicide missions.
The whereabouts of the other 20 were unknown.
Police released the identities and home addresses in Pakistan of the nine gunmen who died during the attack on India's financial centre - a move designed to increase pressure on the Pakistani Government.
It was the first time Indian police had disclosed the larger number of recruits, all of whom it says belonged to the Pakistani militant organisation Lashkar-e-Taiba. Police said there was no reason to believe the other 20 were in India but expressed concern about that possibility.
"Another 20 were ready to die," Deven Bharti, a Mumbai police deputy commissioner, said. "This is the very disturbing part of it."
Considering the effectiveness of the first batch of terrorists in Mumbai. it would be surprising to see them used anywhere else other than another Indian city, though they may take time to scout out any adjustments in India's defenses that resulted from Mumbai's attacks. They also may also chose to hold off on launching additional attacks if they don't want to provoke a war between Pakistan and India that would likely end their ability to use Pakistan as a sanctuary.
Whether they desire a stable base in Pakistan more than success in India seems to be the key question.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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"They may also chose to hold off on launching additional attacks if they don't want to provoke a war between Pakistan and India that would likely end their ability to use Pakistan as a sanctuary."
I don't think they care about that, the more mayhem the better.
An actual India/Pakistan war would make Iraq look like a barroom brawl. Scary.
Posted by: DoorHold at December 14, 2008 12:32 PM (DA32L)
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December 08, 2008
Just When You Thought It Was Over...
...Scalia adds another Obama citizenship case to the Supreme Court's Dec. 12 docket,
Wrotnowski Vs. Bysiewicz.
Let the fun and games begin continue!
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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So.... do we have a Constitution in the USA?? Has someone decided the Constitution matters?? What are they going to do when we all look at our Government and no longer believe it's "our Government" because they refuse to follow the Constitution??
They cannot sweep this matter under the carpet without it creating a backlash.
Posted by: l at December 09, 2008 12:06 AM (tdrxf)
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Think of it as a bailout for unemployed lawyers...
Posted by: Adriane at December 09, 2008 01:26 AM (wJlIy)
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I would really like to see The One be forced to produce a real birth certificate. I have little doubt that he is constitutionally qualified, but it would serve two purposes. First, it would silence all but the most dedicated kooks on the issue. Having regularly skewered my liberal friends for the past 8 years over their fever swamp ravings, it is annoying to constantly hear from them about this from conservatives. Second, The One has a long history of disinformation and secrecy, and it would be good for him to start his administration with a reminder that even The One must comply with minimal levels of openness.
Posted by: Tregonsee at December 09, 2008 06:06 AM (W9t2q)
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There is a certain symmetry about asking Obama to provide a birth certificate. The democrats asked if McCain's birth in the Canal Zone disqualified him. McCain published the document - game over.
Why isn't Obama willing to do the same?
Posted by: arch at December 09, 2008 08:10 AM (bF4kP)
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My final two cents (even though I don't have much sense!) on this topic, the matter of his citizenship: He is a US citizen, without question. US citizens are either natural born or naturalized. Those are the only two statuses of US citizenship. There is no gray area.
If he is not a natural born citizen there would be a public record of his having gone through the naturalization process. For those of you who doubt his status as a natural born citizen, find the public record showing when and where he became a naturalized US citizen. Any journalist, citizen of average intelligence, attorney or private investigator should be able to locate that record without too much effort or expense, if it indeed exists. Produce that public record and those of you who question his citizenship status will have made your point. And, you will have convinced me, a person who voted for him, that he is not Constitutionally qualified to be our nation's President.
I rest my case.
Dude
Posted by: Dude at December 09, 2008 10:48 AM (byA+E)
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Dude:
It's a lot more complicated than "your case."
If, as the former democrat AG of Pennsylvania suit claims, Obama's mother remarried and his Indonesian stepfather adopted him while they were in Indonesia, then he became an Indonesian citizen in order to attend school there, he would have lost his US citizenship, if he was actually born here.
This scenario would also explain the questionable documents about Barack draft registration. Had he not been a US citizen, he would not be required to sign up with selective service.
If, as Obama's Kenyan grandmother claims, he was born in Kenya, he would not be a US citizen unless he was naturalized.
The smart move would be to do what McCain did and provide his birth certificate.
Posted by: arch at December 09, 2008 11:20 AM (bF4kP)
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Posting this again, because I can see from of the comments that other people are not getting this information. And it's important that they do.
Obama HAS PRODUCED AND SHOWN his official short-form birth certificate, which has been seen and touched in physical reality by factcheck.org and politifact.com, and which has been fully vouched for by the State of Hawaii.
Obama IS NOT ABLE TO "produce" his long-form birth certificate, because it CAN NOT be viewed OR copied for Obama. The State of Hawaii does not make copies of the long-form birth certificates FOR ANYONE, FOR ANY REASON. They do not even have a process in place for it.
This is all in the public record.
Posted by: jim at December 09, 2008 03:38 PM (QAh+h)
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And as for Obama's grandmother's "Claims", if you actually listen to the full audio of this 85-year-old woman being interviewed by a translator with a hidden agenda, they starts correcting the interviewer as soon as they realize the incorrect statements he's attributing to her.
And separately, being a citizen of another nation does not somehow "cancel out" your US citizenship. There are plenty of fully legal US-born citizens, who have dual citizenship in other countries due to their parents.
So even IF there was some sort of massive conspiracy involving hiding Obama's birthplace, he would STILL be a US citizen because his mother is.
Believe whatever you want - just be aware that, in this case, your belief is utterly contradicted by facts.
Posted by: jim at December 09, 2008 03:44 PM (QAh+h)
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Well, we should have impeached and imprisoned the five Supreme Court justices that committed the greatest act of judicial corruption in our country's history by making George Bush president.
If we had done that, chances are that these two criminals would not be using their position to undermine the first legitimately elected President in eight years.
Posted by: Green Eagle at December 09, 2008 03:45 PM (PHHOs)
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uh... green eagle ur incorrect
the greatest act of judicial corruption in our nations history is roe v. wade
this decision is in direct opposition to the 10th amendment of our Constitution which gives the states the right to make laws concerning rights not enumerated in the Bill of Rights
And i say this as a Pro Choice Social Liberal
Posted by: MAModerate at December 09, 2008 04:04 PM (1XwXF)
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MAModerate, so you're saying Roe v. Wade is a violation of State's rights - but the SCOTUS decision to overturn the Florida recount and select GWB was not?
Posted by: jim at December 09, 2008 06:33 PM (QAh+h)
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another jim -
The only concern of the State Department is that you are legally eligible to leave the country and return to it.
Obama is not asking the State Department's permission to travel. He has declared that he is eligible to become President.
There is a difference.
Posted by: Adriane at December 10, 2008 01:01 AM (14u2A)
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I'll give you two words to explain why I don't buy any of these birth certificate conspiracy theories floating around: Hillary Clinton.
I may disagree with her politically--and I do, but even her opponents must admit that she is one of the best connected and ruthless politicians on the scene today. The Clintons have contacts at every level of government, and they've never shied away from the politics of personal destruction.
If concrete evidence exists that would legally disqualify Obama from holding the Oval Office, the Clintons and their minions almost certainly would have been able to find it. And given the cutthroat nature of the Democratic primaries this year, there's no doubt that if she'd had it, Hillary would have used this evidence against Obama.
The simple fact that one of the most vicious politicians of the age didn't use this attack against Obama shows me that there simply is nothing to this charge, and those who keep bringing it up--on
both sides--remind me quite a lot of those dimwits who still think that Bush had something to do with planning and/or executing the 9/11 attacks.
Let's not go down that road, fellow conservatives. Leave the wacko conspiracy theories for the lefties who put mirrors on their shoes to watch for Black Helicopters.
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at December 10, 2008 08:23 AM (oGgom)
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Well said CY. My sentiments exactly. How about that?! A conservative and a liberal have found common ground.
I have to remind some of my fellow Democrat friends (those who are conspiracy theorists) from time to time that Michael Moore is NOT a journalist.
Unfortunately, there will always be people who are oblivious to facts that get in the way of their bias. That's not a Democrat or Republican issue. It's a human nature issue.
Posted by: Dude at December 10, 2008 11:00 AM (byA+E)
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That would be "CW", Dude. I really don't think CY (Bob Owens) is impersonating my friend CW
Posted by: PhyCon (formerly Mark) at December 10, 2008 03:02 PM (4od5C)
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Actually, Adriane, the State Department doesn't only issue passports. It also handles some security clearances.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A52768-2003Feb10?language=printer
Other Federal entities which grant security clearances include the NSA, CIA, FBI - all consider a short-form birth certificate that has been validated by the state that issued it, as sufficient for identifying the person.
And in all of this, the State Department must determine that the person's citizenship information is correct, before they will issue a passport or a security clearance.
And State Department considers a short-form birth certificate perfectly adequate for this, as long as they can validate it with the individual state which issued it - as *also* do the NSA, CIA, FBI, DIA, etc. etc.
That's just how it is.
Posted by: jim at December 10, 2008 04:32 PM (QAh+h)
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"That would be "CW", Dude. I really don't think CY (Bob Owens) is impersonating my friend CW
"
Oops! Sorry about that!
Dude
Posted by: Dude at December 10, 2008 05:20 PM (byA+E)
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No problem, Dude... I guess I should have thought of the possible confusion of initials when I picked my new nom-de-blog (to go with my new blog). Ahh, well, live and learn.
And I imagine that there are quite a lot of things we could agree on... such as, for example, that the sound of fingernails down a blackboard is a Bad Thing.
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at December 10, 2008 07:08 PM (oGgom)
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Obama Should Respect the Secret Service Enough to Release His Vault Copy Birth Certificate
The Supreme Court will decide today whether or not to hear two cases arguing that President Elect Barack Obama is not a "natural born citizen" and is therefore
ineligible to become President.
Odds are overwhelming that the Court will decline to hear these cases that Obama has fought in lower courts and which have previously been dismissed, and those conspiracy theorists who believe Barack Obama is illegally and unconstitutionally usurping the office of the Presidency will only become more inflamed and agitated.
I'm not sure why Barack Obama has fought releasing the vault copy of his birth certificate, and frankly do not care what his motivations have been. I would argue, however, that Obama should release his vault copy birth certificate even if he wins these legal challenges, simply out of respect for the Secret Service officers that will be charged with guarding his life during the course of his Presidency, and for those White House staff members that could be also be threatened by any attempt against the President.
We've already seen people arrested for threatening Obama the candidate, ranging from meth-addled white supremacists, sober bout stupid white supremacists with a flair for fashion, a "slow" bail bondsman wannabe, and a man whose behavior changed after a recent traumatic brain injury. None of these potential threats has been viewed as a significant threat, but there are no doubt individuals and groups that are at least marginally more capable that would like to see President Elect Obama's term cut tragically short. As a result, we can probably expect the Secret Service to have a busy Presidency even without concerned "patriots" adding to the chatter of threats against our duly elected President.
By simply releasing the vault copy of his birth certificate—which is all most of the dozens of lawsuits against Obama are asking— Obama will satisfy the overwhelming majority of people who have questions about Obama's citizenship and his constitutional right to be President.
By holding out on what should be a trivial matter, Obama is going to create a situation where conspiracy theories regarding his citizenship will not only continue, they may increase, and ratchet up in intensity.
As a result of his unnecessary obstinance, the number of disillusioned citizens will grow, leading to an increase in "chatter" which will make it more difficult for the Secret Service to discern legitimate threats against the President from the rantings of mere blowhards. When the chatter obscures true threats, then the opportunity of an incident occurring rises.
The last thing any of us should want as Americans is a situation where an individual or group has an opportunity to attempt an attack on our President, especially if that attack could have been thwarted far in advance without any risk to the President, his family members, staff, nearby citizens, or members of the Secret Service tasked with putting the President's Security about their own.
Some people hate Barack Obama merely because he is ethically half African, and there is little we can do to erase their bigotry.
Any birth certificate conspiracy theorist threat (real or merely resource-diverting clutter), however, can easily be diffused by the President Elect himself. It requires only a simple signature on a form releasing the vault copy of his birth certificate to the media.
Barack Obama should respect those serving in his White House and those charged with guarding his life enough to sign the release form and make the vault copy of his birth certificate public.
Put the conspiracy theorists out of business, Mr. Obama.
It's simply the right thing to do.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Why is Obama objecting to proving that he was a natural born American citizen? It's a specific constitutional requirement to serve a president.
I assume that he has a passport of some kind - tourist, official duty or diplomatic. The first passport issued requires primary or secondary evidence of citizenship.
Posted by: arch at December 08, 2008 10:48 AM (gPMC3)
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Sorry,
I meant "as" president
Posted by: arch at December 08, 2008 10:49 AM (gPMC3)
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Apparently, the copy of his Certificate of Live Birth that he has made public, as well as other evidence, is evidence enough for the SCOTUS to decline to hear the case in question. Keep in mind that it would only require four Justices to decide to hear the case. Obviously, not all four of the conservative Justices agreed to proceed with this case.
This article on Fox News settles it for me:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2008/12/08/supreme-court-dismisses-challenge-obamas-citienship/
In my opinion, if there were even a hint of truth to these allegations that Obama isn't a natural borm citizen, surely the Republican National Committee would have brought this to light well before the election. In fact, I'm quite sure that they DID investigate this matter thoroughly and came to the conclusion that Obama is in fact a natural born citizen of the USA.
In other words, if they had any evidence at all that he isn't a natural born citizen and did not bring that evidence forward before the election, that would imply a conspiracy at the highest levels of the leadership of the Republican Party as participants in the largest campaign fraud in American History.
I simply can not imagine that the Republican Party and its leadership, knowing full well that ALL of the major polls showed that Obama was likely to win this election, would have swept under the rug any evidence that would have disqualified him from actually becoming president under the provisions set forth in the Constitution. It just ain't logical that the Republicans would have been part of a conspiracy to help a Democrat get elected who wasn't qualified. Think about that for a moment.
Furthermore, I have yet to hear of even ONE Republican Congressman, Senator, or candidate for federal office question the status of Obama's citizenship, much less provide one shred of evidence that he is anything other than a ....natural born citizen of the United States of America.
From what I understand from various legal sources, including my brother who is a very conservative federal criminal defense attorney, The SCOTUS has never actually ruled on what it means to be a natural born citizen. Many of us, myself included, have always interpreted that to mean that a person is actually born in the United States or one of its territories.
Article II, Section 1 says in part:
No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.
Unfortunately, the Supreme Court has never ruled on what that actually MEANS. Just because you or I THINK that it means a particular thing doesn't make it so. Under our system the Constitution means what the SCOTUS says it means.
I wish that the Court would rule on this question, the definition of "natural born citizen" and settle it once and for all.
Respectfully,
Dude
Posted by: Dude at December 08, 2008 01:18 PM (byA+E)
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I agree with most of what you post Dude, but why do you think Obama does not clear the matter?
PS: I think you give the Republicans too much credit. They gave Obama the biggest pass in political history by not using the Rev Wright issue. Why would you then expect them to go after Obama's birth location?
Posted by: Rick at December 08, 2008 04:01 PM (FWmwx)
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There's a big difference between the Wright issue and the citizenship issue. Whatever his association with Wright was, that would not Constitutionally disqualify him from the office of the Presidency. In fact, many Republicans did use Wright against him. But, they weren't able to convince enough voters that it mattered.
On the other hand, if the Republican Leadership had any evidence at all that Obama's legal status as a natural born US citizen was in question, surely they would have pursued that. As I stated earlier, I imagine that they did do so and came to the conclusion that these rumors were just that, rumors.
I think that Obama HAS cleared the matter. I think that he has provided all the documents that the law requires and that most reasonable people would expect. Thus far, the courts seem to be satisfied that he's a natural born citizen.
Irregardless of what other evidence that he or his campaign might produce in the future, there will still be people who won't believe it.
If I were him I wouldn't produce any further evidence either, unless the courts ruled otherwise. If anyone has credible evidence showing that he's not a natural born citizen, they can certainly pursue in the courts. In fact, they should.
Question for Smarty: What evidence do you have that Obama is a Marxist? The man became a millionaire by being a Capitalist! He wrote two books that sold very well. That ain't Marxism.
Dude
Posted by: Dude at December 08, 2008 04:54 PM (byA+E)
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"If I were him I wouldn't produce any further evidence either, unless the courts ruled otherwise"
I disagree. If there is any question as to his eligibility he owes it to the country to come forth with the proof. Otherwise the appearance smells as if there is something to hide. It's certainly not too much to ask of any candidate.
Posted by: Rick at December 08, 2008 05:09 PM (FWmwx)
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"I disagree. If there is any question as to his eligibility he owes it to the country to come forth with the proof. Otherwise the appearance smells as if there is something to hide. It's certainly not too much to ask of any candidate."
That's my point. The question has been answered. He has come forth with the proof to satisfy the SCOTUS. The burden of proof is now on anyone who claims to have evidence to the contrary.
There's another case coming up dealing with this same issue, soon. It'll be interesting to see how that one plays out.
Posted by: Dude at December 08, 2008 05:32 PM (byA+E)
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Dude, he has not come forth with proof to satisfy SCOTUS. SCOTUS has not decided on that, only that they would not review the case. If I'm incorrect, please explain.
Thanks
Posted by: Rick at December 08, 2008 05:42 PM (FWmwx)
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I can see a few reasons for Obama to let this fester. One, he doesn't think it's worth the time to address. Two, he knows it will drive the conspiracy theorists even crazier, and all opposition to him can be tarred with that brush. Third, there is some detail in the actual certificate that might be personally embarrassing to him, the two that occur to me being his birth name is something mundane like "Barry" or his mother's status is single.
Myself, I like the third reason the best. Obama is a self made man - his entire public persona has been carefully crafted to project the image he wants us to see. His kind of narcissism can't permit any contrary evidence.
Forget the birth certificate - I'd like to know more about his college years. How he can have slipped through Columbia and Harvard without leaving any trace baffles me. Where did he live, what did he do, who did he hang out with - hell, after eight years of the media digging up everybody who sat near Bush 43 in college, why isn't there any interest in this impenetrable smoke screen Obama's shrouded his early years in?
Posted by: Steve Skubinna at December 08, 2008 06:49 PM (mfdQL)
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Dude Carl Marx wrote a book too!
Posted by: Rich in KC at December 08, 2008 06:57 PM (siQqy)
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Let me see. The new leader doesn't have to meet the same requirements that I did to get the clearances that I have for my job, oookay. And lots of folks are good with that.
Posted by: emdfl at December 08, 2008 07:07 PM (N1uaO)
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Okay, Dude, show us Obama's transcripts. Then tell me he didn't "slip through." A fish moves through water leaving more trace than Obama did through Columbia and Harvard.
Posted by: Steve Skubinna at December 08, 2008 11:46 PM (mfdQL)
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When the painless process of producing a source document from an easily accessible and know location would tamp down a great deal of outrage and suspicion from the far left and right, and perhaps prevent a great deal of the insanity we saw from your liberal peers over the last eight years, it seems incumbent on a President who touts himself as "post-partisan" to help put to rest these suspicions.
Sounds good to me. By the above logic, President Bush should have pulled out of Iraq to prevent "insanity" from the left. I don't remember too many calls from the left for the president to get the U. S. out of Iraq because he's ticking us off & putting the Secret Service (& everyone else nearby) in danger.
And surely you understand about the admittedly over-used concept of "projection." This is a transparent, classic case thereof. As well as being on the level of "Nyah, nyah, you did it first!!" But that's forgetting 16 yrs. of Clinton Derangement Syndrome, not to mention Blame Clinton Syndrome, which has been the operating public relations policy of the Bush Admin. for the last eight yrs.
Completely on topic, you might want to suggest to your "far right" friends (we know you're a sensible middle-of-the-roader, you're not threatening anyone, just pointing a few things out) that they inquire into immigration records. After his indoctrination at the Indonesian
madrassa, how did Obama get into (or back into, if you insist) the United States? He would have needed a passport, or, if he weren't a citizen, a visa or green card. I'm sure all your crack researchers can get going on that immediately. Maybe you can build a model of the plane or boat in which the messiah came to America, play around w/ it & take pictures to illustrate how he could have sneaked into Honolulu or wherever.
To the archives!!
Posted by: Malignant Bouffant at December 08, 2008 11:55 PM (ZOEFb)
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Sigh.
Obama HAS NOT FOUGHT the releasing of his birth certificate.
He has received and shown his short-form birth certificate, which has been seen and touched in physical reality by factcheck.org and politifact.com, and which has been fully vouched for by the State of Hawaii.
The long-form birth certificate CAN NOT be viewed OR copied for Obama. The State of Hawaii does not make copies of the long-form birth certificates FOR ANYONE, FOR ANY REASON. They do not even have a process in place for it.
This is all in the public record.
Posted by: jim at December 09, 2008 12:14 AM (WCe2M)
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This is a filthy post. You should be ashamed of yourself. Paranoia and stupidity are not valid excuses for this garbage. It is time to quit begging for free barbecues and get yourself a decent job.
Posted by: psychedelic santa at December 09, 2008 01:50 AM (7k1Lg)
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Ah, the sweet smell of wingnuts burning in the morning.
Please continue to pursue this non-existent issue, it fits you all so well.
More windmills please.
-GSD
Posted by: GSD at December 09, 2008 08:02 AM (I4yBD)
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I think all rational Republicans should continue to pursue this matter, using every penny and every minute they can drum up for support. This is the most important issue EVAH! And if Republicans succeed, there will be ponies for all!
Meanwhile, us adults will fix health care, the recession, the wars, wages, the credit crunch, and, you know, other not-so-important stuff.
Posted by: Timothy at December 09, 2008 09:46 AM (KJKSV)
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If the result of a successful challenge would be to make Slow Joe Biden president, I say stop the inquiry NOW.
Posted by: Deuce Geary at December 09, 2008 11:57 AM (Q285d)
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I don,t think the Democrats are that stupid to not have made sure their candidate qualified for the office. Therefore I believe Obama was been born in the USA. However, I also feel if there is any question as to his birth location it should be answered in such a way that will eliminate any doubt. I feel EVERY candidate should PROVE their qualifications and I do not feel that is unreasonable. If the candidate thinks it unreasonable, or cannot prove it, then they should not occupy the office.
Posted by: Rick at December 09, 2008 01:46 PM (FWmwx)
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I doubt releasing the vault copy will satisfy anyone who is not satisfied with the response of the State of Hawaii at this time. The truthers would then charge that it is a forged birth certificate. There is no way that the allegations can be answered because there is always a new twist to the allegations.
Those who are levelling these allegations ought to be the ones who should be forced to come up with the proof supporting what they allege; Mr. Obama should be under no obligation to respond. Otherwise any nut can raise any allegation and force Mr. Obama to continuously have to prove that the allegations are false.
and that task is impossible when faced with a truther.
So I understand why he doesn't just release the birth certificate - will it end this? No. Then why indulge these paranoids? Why waste the time and energy and money indulging them?
Posted by: Mikey NTH at December 09, 2008 03:46 PM (O9Cc8)
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Then why indulge these paranoids?
Because Obama is black.
SA2SQ.
Posted by: Ivan Ivanovich Renko at December 09, 2008 04:23 PM (nWAPF)
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Mikey NTH, there is not much time, money and energy to be wasted in complying with this very reasonable request. In fact, this minor piece of work would be done by others. If it does not end it, at least he can affirm he did it.
Posted by: Rick at December 09, 2008 04:35 PM (FWmwx)
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So let me get this straight. Because there are racists who want to kill Obama for not being their idea of American, Obama should prove he is their idea of American?
Nice one. Make the president-elect of your country dance to the tune of racists. Now that's going to happen!
Posted by: Dr Zen at December 09, 2008 06:41 PM (ZeJI4)
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Mikey NTH: 'So I understand why he doesn't just release the birth certificate - will it end this? No. Then why indulge these paranoids? Why waste the time and energy and money indulging them?'
well, he has wasted hundreds of thousands of dollars and probably some time in NOT indulging them - it would seem cheaper at this point - your metric, cost - to divulge rather than stonewall.
Dude:'Rich in KC: Ahhhhhhh, how could I have missed that connection?! Karl Marx wrote a book. Obama and a gazillion other people have written books. Now, I got it. They're all Marxists!'
Now I know you're just being all sensational and stuff. The proper conclusion from his statement is 'Writing a book does not disqualify one from being Marxist'.. And your rejoinder looks really weak at this point. Perhaps you should have asked for points proving his Marxism, but no, you went for the cheap laugh. Great debate technique.
Posted by: Bill Johnson at December 09, 2008 07:38 PM (fZKwr)
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Bill and Rick:
I think you may have misread what I wrote. Let me try again: there is nothing Mr. Obama can do satisfy these truthers. Even if he could and did have the vault copy of the certificate brought out for viewing, the next allegation would be that the vault copy was a forgery and that Mr. Obama must prove the authenticity of it.
And if that is done, then on to the next "reasonable request to answer these allegations". There is no answer that can be given to satisfy a truther, ever. There is always a new twist to the allegations, or a new allegation.
I have an idea - why shouldn't those who bring the allegations be the ones to prove that their allegations are correct? They don't believe he was born in Hawaii? Then they should prove that.
So let's see the proof of these allegations, let's see the accuser put up or shut-up.
Posted by: Mikey NTH at December 10, 2008 08:39 AM (O9Cc8)
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Wow. It looks like the Liberals/Truthers love to invert the burden of proof. So let me get this right; because they claim that fire can't melt steel, it proves that Obama must never produce his birth certificate?
Non-sequitor in the house.
Did someone eariler demand that CY should sometime "try" to argue with someone who is insane? Um. Have you read any of the Liberal commenters here in the last year? Oh sweet irony.
Posted by: brando at December 10, 2008 10:31 AM (qzOby)
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sjohntucson, so I guess you want me to accept all things posted on the net as fact?
Posted by: Rick at December 10, 2008 01:06 PM (FWmwx)
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jrod
you are wrong What obamas web site posted was a certification of live birth not a certificate of live birth
It does not have witness or doctors signature. name of hospital, address of parents etc. what was on his website just proves he was born period nothing else.
Posted by: dong_ha68 at December 10, 2008 02:32 PM (PPlyI)
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Mickey NTH, I understand exactly what you mean. Even if your prediction would come true it is not an unreasonable request to see the Vault Copy as this is an important consitutional issue.
Regards to proving the allegations, my understanding is that the ones bringing suit have found no hospital records or witnesses, and the rumor that a birth notice appeared in local paper was not found.
I must say if this regarded George W. Bush the press would be relentless. Dan Rather would probably produce a forged birth certificate from some place like Turkey.
Posted by: Rick at December 10, 2008 02:42 PM (FWmwx)
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(1) I am not a liberal.
(2) The one's bringing suit have an obligation to provide the evidence. In the event of all evidence being in the hands of a third party, they can subpoena that third party to provide evidence. The third party, Hawaii, has provided the evidence. A state official has provided testimony in written form, attesting that the document exists, it has been seen, and this is the information we release according to state law.
That is sufficient for the courts, under (IIRC) the FRE and state evidence rules. They only way to get past that would be to impeach the state official's testimony. Some evidence would have to be presented to do that, to say that the state official is lying, and I haven't seen any evidence to that. And I wouldn't expect there would be many witnesses about who could testify about a birth that happened in 1961. No reasonable person would expect that testimony, just as no reasonable person would pursue this beyond what the State of Hawaii is legally permitted or required to prove.
(3) Of course if it was G.W. Bush the press would be all over it. With the same results and the same 'dark suspicions'. And? Just because the press went crazy does it mean that crazy is now the standard everyone should have to meet? Is Mary Mapes looking for documentary evidence to support rumors and allegations the new standard?
There are better things to pursue than this.
Posted by: Mikey NTH at December 10, 2008 06:15 PM (TUWci)
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Mikey NTH, "The third party, Hawaii, has provided the evidence. A state official provided testimony in written form, attesting the document exists, it has been seen, and this is the information we release according to state law"
One question, and I'm out of here. Did the State of Hawaii official testify that a certification of live birth or a certificate of live birth exists?
Posted by: Rick at December 11, 2008 07:59 AM (FWmwx)
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All I know is that, if somebody came to me for a job and he promised that he was qualified for the job (U.S. citizen and such), but that he didn't have the paperwork on him, I would tell him to bring it when he showed up for his first day of work (if I hired him). If he didn't show up with the proof on his first day of work, I would send him home to get it. I simply wouldn't allow him to work (as by law I cannot) until he provides his Social Security Card and proof of citizenship.
It's that simple. I just want to see his birth certificate in order to know that he is qualified to be President. That's all. The vast majority of candidates (especially if there is _any_ doubt) release such information very early in the campaign. The fact that he hasn't released the information makes me skeptical. However, my skepticism and doubts can simply be laid to rest with the appropriate release of the Birth Certificate. I am sure that there are a lot of other people like myself who simply want the applicant for the job to prove that he is eligible to hold it and, once that is shown, we will be satisfied.
Posted by: Theophile at December 12, 2008 06:11 PM (D4S1a)
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December 05, 2008
The Facebook Friends Murder
Wake County NC authorities have identified the body recovered behind an unoccupied dwelling as 18-year-old Matthew Josiah Silliman, who had been the subject of a Silver Alert for missing adults with certain mental impairments in late November.
Four area high school students that were Sillimans' "friends" on Facebook are now facing murder charges in Silliman's death:
As Silliman's identity was being confirmed, four Wake County high school students who are connected to him through the social networking site Facebook were denied bond when they appeared in court for the first time to face murder charges in his death.
Allegra Rose Dahlquist, 17, of 601 Walcott Way, Cary; Ryan Patrick Hare, 18; of 100 Walnut Hill Court, Apex; Aadil Shahid Khan, 17, of 901 Bristol Blue St., Apex; and Drew Logan Shaw, 16, of 107 Woolard Way, Apex, had been arrested Wednesday.
All four were in the Wake County jail Thursday evening. Their next court appearance is scheduled for Dec. 22.
Authorities have not released either a cause of death for Silliman, nor have they provided a motive for his murder. The WRAL reporter, however, hints at a possible angle:
Family members declined to comment after the brief court hearing, but Billy Shenk, a friend of Shaw's, said he and the 16-year-old were part of a "juggalo" crew, which Shenk described as a group of outcasts.
"It's not a gang, not violence," he said. "It's just a group of people who are tired of being picked on and everything, so we just form together and grew strong."
Shenk added that he does not think Shaw is a violent person.
"He's a really good kid after you guys get to know him. All these people are saying Gothic kids are the reason for all this. No, it's not," he said.
On his MySpace page, Shaw, a sophomore at Panther Creek High School in Cary, referred to himself as a "juggalo," which also denotes a fan of the hip-hop group Insane Clown Posse.
A friend of Shaw's, in a posting on his MySpace page Thursday, described it as "a state of mind," and belief in the Dark Carnival, a fictional theme in the group's albums. Numerous other Web sites explain the term in other details.
I said the reporter provided a hint; I didn't say it was necessarily a good one.
Various musical genres have been blamed for playing a role in homicides and suicides for as long as I can remember, and if these suspects shared musical interests it can indicate that they are acculturated similarly, but it does not mean that the music is a trigger for the murder. If it was we'd have emos and goths and juggalos offing people (or more likely, themselves) at an astounding rate, or at least that greater than say, Britney Spears fans.
That said, it is possible that law enforcement beleives the Dark Carnival mythology played a role in Silliman's death. If that is the contention of authorities or this reporter, however, they haven't yet decided to share why they think that was a contributing factor.
It will be interesting to see what, if any role Facebook postings by the deceased or the accused play in this case, and if they are used in the trials by either the prosecution or defense.
Facebook and MySpace pages and similar social media sites will continue to playa greater role in both criminal investigations and the background investigations by journalists of both crime suspects, and victims. As we become more immersed in the technology, the technology is going to strip away our anonymity and provide possible insights into our motivations. Profilers and criminal psychologists are going to have a field day once they start grasping and data-mining the technology. Let's just hope they draw the right decisions from what they discover.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Obviously the real culprit here is Facebook, which by recklessly providing their web service to all comers is directly responsible for this young man's death.
Consider - Facebook is explicitly designed to "bring people together", despite that a murder cannot even occur unless the victim and killer are first brought together. And then, to compound this, they offer this service indiscriminately to everyone regardless of age or experience or intent.
Now some fanatics may make the specious argument that Facebook and other facilitators of murder are protected by the First Amendment, but the simple fact is that the Amendment was designed to permit governments and media outlets to communicate, and does not confer an individual right.
Posted by: Steve Skubinna at December 06, 2008 10:35 PM (mfdQL)
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December 04, 2008
Charges Filed Against Police Chief in Accidental Machine Gun Death of Eight-Year-Old at MA Machine Gun Shoot; Father Amazingly Not Charged
This past October an eight-year-old was killed on the firing line of a machine gun shoot when he lost control of a Micro Uzi submachine gun he was firing and put a single 9mm bullet into his own head.
Charges have now been filed:
A police chief and a Massachusetts gun club have been indicted for involuntary manslaughter in the death of an 8-year-old boy who accidentally shot himself with a Uzi at an October gun expo in Massachusetts.
Pelham Police Chief Edward Fleury owns COP Firearms & Training, which sponsored the Machine Gun Shoot and Firearms Expo at the Westfield Sportsman's Club, where 8-year-old Christopher Bizilj accidentally shot himself in the head in October after losing control of the 9 mm Micro Uzi submachine gun.
In addition to the manslaughter indictments, Fleury and the Westfield Sportsman's Club were also indicted on four counts each of furnishing a gun to a minor.
Two other men, Carl Guiffre of Hartford, Conn., and Domenico Spano, of New Milford, Conn., also face involuntary manslaughter charges.
This story is an exercise in what happens when a series of bad judgement calls compound upon one another with tragic consequences.
As a father of an eight-year-old myself, I know that my child doesn't yet have the responsibility, situational awareness, or strength to handle any firearm responsibly, and I would never consent to letting her handle a submachine gun.
Even if the father did not know enough about the recoil of fully automatic weapons to know that his child should not be handling one, the instructor should have been familiar enough with the firearm to suspect that a child cannot handle one responsibly.
Third, the owner/operator of the shoot, the Police Chief that has been among those charged, should have posted some sort of minimum qualifications to participate in the shoot, and the physical age and capability to handle such firearms should arguably factor into who is allowed to participate; the dead child obviously and tragically did not meet these standards.
I'm not sure if involuntary manslaughter charges are the best way to handle this negligent death, but if charges are to be brought, I'm disappointed that they were not distributed equally to those obviously the most to blame.
The judgement of the father of the child to allow his child to try to fire a machine gun was the largest mistake in a string of mistakes, and he was not charged.
Perhaps the prosecutor agonized over the possible charges and felt that the family suffered enough with the loss of the child, but this father, in my opinion, is the individual most directly to blame for the death of his child, and if others are charged for this tragic death, he should be as well.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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What a sad situation. A stupid decision turned into a tragic mistake. There are good ways to get children involved in learning about shooting and shooting safety, but a micro Uzi is probably not one of them.
Posted by: Mike Gray at December 05, 2008 01:09 AM (fBnZs)
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I disagree with the author of the post. While the father was stupid and negligent, there is no punishment on earth that could equal the loss of a child. I am a gun owner and a father, and even imagining my son would die as a result of my stupidity is almost unbearable.
Posted by: Walter at December 05, 2008 10:15 AM (cRO6v)
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If you don't charge the person most responsible for the child's welfare with negligence then you shouldn't be charging anyone else. This should be written down as a tragedy and let go. The father must live in his own personal hell for the rest of his life, no further action need be taken.
The next most "responsible" person is the instructor who should have known better than to let a 8 yr old child handle a automatic weapon. He should have his instructor's license revoked or at least suspended for several years. This likely removes the man's livelihood for a while and that along with knowing his poor judgment cost a child his life is punishment enough.
The buck stops there. The sponsor should not be liable, any rational individual would assume common sense would prevent such an incident. In this case both "fail safes" failed as the common sense of the instructor and the father failed to prevent this tragedy. Sorry but this hearkens to "stupidity labels" if they pursue this matter. We all know coffee is hot, not to use metal ladders around power lines, etc.
Posted by: Scott at December 05, 2008 11:17 AM (FaCaW)
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I let my son shoot machineguns when he was 4, I was a class III Dealer then, but never something like a submachinegun that I couldn't keep control of by wrapping my arms around him and supporting the weapon. I would certainly never turn a child loose with any weapon.
Posted by: georgeh at December 05, 2008 02:40 PM (1tw+N)
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What is the purpose of law?? The purpose is to punish evildoers. None of these persons willfully murdered anyone. It was a very tragic ACCIDENT. If I was on the jury... I would give an "innocent" verdict. Period.
There is no reason for punishment. People die accidental deaths all the time for reasons of negligence... human error... etc.
Now they have created "vehicular homicide" for accidental deaths that occur.
The desire for vengeance in this nation for simple human errors of reason or forethought with no malice is WRONG... and unlawful.
If all this is true, then beach owners can be charged with "homicide" every time a person drowns, etc.,etc., etc.,
We make mistakes. When are jurors and citizens going to realize that are BASIC LAWS are often a SHAM and we've got to stop participating in the INJUSTICE of BAD LAWS.
Meanwhile, willful massmurdering childkillers are protected by law... when they ought to be in prison for the rest of their lives for committing mass murder as abortions. That's WILLFUL PREMEDITATED MURDER... for profit.
Let's start thinking as citizen jurors and put a stop to injustice. NONE of these people should be charged with murder... it was an ACCIDENT!!!
"Involuntary Manslaughter" is a TRAVESTY OF JUSTICE in the first place - so the underlying presupposition of the charge is FALSE and WRONG and NO ONE should ever face that charge.
It's either murder, or it's an accident, and the law does not EXIST (or shouldn't) to PUNISH ACCIDENTAL DEATH!!
Posted by: l at December 05, 2008 03:18 PM (tdrxf)
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I eagerly await the charges of murder being filed against the mayor of the city and the governor of Massachusetts. They're just as culpable as the show sponsor is.
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at December 05, 2008 08:08 PM (Banpw)
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Until all you 2nd Amendment folks...recognize the rest of our Constitution...
I read all your harping about "personal responsibly"
Helmet laws save lives...seat belt laws...save lives.
Banning cell phones save lives.
Trigger lock laws..may just keep children from killing each other...
The person and the "club" that allowed this to happen? Should be prosecuted. Having raised two children...
at one point in their lives were this age...
I place the gun culture that believe children need to fire a gun...in the same category as pedophiles..
and other abuse.
Do any of you..with a child truly believe a child of this age has the cognitive development necessary?
Posted by: nogo more at December 06, 2008 04:33 AM (wqLhp)
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"I place the gun culture that believe children need to fire a gun...in the same category as pedophiles..
and other abuse."
That's because you are a raging moron.
Posted by: Conservative CBU at December 06, 2008 06:47 AM (M+Vfm)
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"Helmet laws save lives...seat belt laws...save lives.
Banning cell phones save lives.
Trigger lock laws..may just keep children from killing each other..."
Indeed, why don't we just pass laws to deal with any kind of potential danger and every conceivible situation so we can just make sure people always do what is best for them and leave nothing to chance? Good luck with that.
Posted by: Todd at December 06, 2008 08:54 AM (PeEyj)
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Nogo, when are you going to get around to banning kitchen knives and baseball bats? It's possible to commit murder and other crimes with those, too.
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at December 06, 2008 09:01 AM (aCGrL)
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An eight year old (or pretty much any inexperienced shooter) experiencing loss of control of a machine pistol that could result in serious bodily injury to the shooter or another seems like a foreseable consequence of allowing the inexperienced person to fire the weapon.
I've shot enough to have seen several experienced shooters have an AD. A child or inexperienced adult? You can bet money something just might go wrong.
So yeah, I'm o.k. with the charges.
I have friends who own class III weapons, and yes they allow others to shoot them. But they also exercise alot of caution - up to things like standing with the shooter, holding the weapon, and short loading magazines until they gain some confidence in the abilities and responsibility of the shooter.
Posted by: ThomasD at December 06, 2008 12:50 PM (UK5R1)
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I could see introducing an eight year old to firearms with a .22 rifle. In fact, I think it would lead to greater responsibility and safety. Letting an eight year old shoot a full auto Uzi.....that is a decision I just don't understand.
Posted by: George Bruce at December 06, 2008 02:17 PM (rbBe5)
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Thomas, George, I agree... but the person with primary responsibility is the father... the others have less, if any, responsibility. So why not charge the person with the most responsibility first?
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at December 06, 2008 02:51 PM (N+CS/)
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The reason they charged the sponsors, is because they didn't provide a certified instructor. They provided an uncertified, 15 year old kid.
The reason they didn't charge the dad, is because when he asked if that was a good gun for his kid to try, the staff told him it would be.
I agree with the post, dad should have been charged anyways. Just bringing some facts that some of y'all clearly aren't aware of.
Posted by: Frank at December 06, 2008 07:38 PM (0jXBE)
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Frank, two words. "
Caveat emptor." If Dad believed the staff, that does not negate his responsibility.
I am not saying that staff shouldn't be charged... but Dad should be as well, if anyone is. If Dad isn't, no one should be.
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at December 06, 2008 07:41 PM (N+CS/)
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Go driving with Ted Kennedy in MA and die-tough luck.
Go shooting with your dad and die-outrage.
I wouldn't go shooting or swiming in MA if my life depended on it.
Posted by: pinandpuller at December 07, 2008 03:31 AM (nBjKI)
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I am a full supporter of the Second Amendment, but "you got to know your kid".
The average 8 year-old just isn't ready for a tricky recoil. If my son had asked me at that age if he could fire such a weapon, I would have said "when you are a little older". At age 14, he has been shooting .22 rifles since he was 11 (and this year a shotgun) in the closely-monitored confines at Boy Scout camp.
It brings to mind a story when I was a senior in high school, 35+ years ago. A friend's younger brother, a couple of years younger, fired a .45 in a controlled setting, but not being ready for the recoil, the pistol came back and broke his jaw.
And I have known three people who have been slightly injured by guns "they thought weren't loaded."
Sadly, at the shooting event, there should have been one of those signs you see at amusement parks, saying "if you are shorter than this"...
The instructor should have said "I'm sorry, he is not old enough, yet."
We need to ask ourselves when approaching a "situation" - "What is the worst thing that can happen?. And err on the side of caution.
I also struggle with whether the dad should have been charged.
Posted by: on-the-rocks at December 07, 2008 09:50 AM (jA39H)
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Fatal "accidents" of any nature are almost always the result of a string of poor decisions.
Posted by: PA at December 07, 2008 08:36 PM (CwzFE)
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Pointless Cluster Bomb Ban Signed
92 nations
signed a ban on cluster bombs yesterday, a move that is more or less meaningless as the largest producers and users of such munitions—including Russia, China, and the United States—refused to sign on.
Cluster bombs are composed of grenade-sized bomblets inside a air-delivered bomb, missile, or artillery shell. Once the larger shell reaches the target area, it disperses the bomblets over a wider area than could be covered by a single conventional bomb. Cluster bombs are particularly effective against concentrations of dismounted infantry, unarmored targets such as supply depots, refueling stations, airfields, and supply convoys, and lightly armored targets, such as armored personnel carriers and self-propelled artillery.
While cluster bombs are effective area weapons, the bomblets have an unacceptably higher failure rate. Typically several grenade-sized bomblets in a cluster bomb fail to detonate, leaving live, fused explosives on the ground that are a significant threat to civilians long after the military conflict is over.
Cluster bombs have a legitimate military use, and I doubt cluster bombs will disappear from inventories in the next few decades, but perhaps technological advances could render them less of a lingering threat. Using explosives that degrade quickly within minutes of deployment would be one possible way to minimize the threat left by unexploded bomblets, and perhaps another avenue would be to go the opposite route, using highly corrosive explosives that disable a bomblet's fuse and "eat" the unexploded bomblet from the inside out, leaving a relatively inert husk.
Small diameter bombs (SDBs) or other weapons systems will eventually make cluster munitions obsolete, but a coalition of the toothless signing bans against munition systems that they cannot effectively manufacture or deploy in combat will not have any meaningful long-term impact.
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More mental masturbation at it's finest! Guess we'll just have to go back to doing H&I fire with napalm and willie pete....which you have to admit is just as spectacular and very deadly. Oh well, whatever gets the job done, while protecting the environment and the innocents!
Posted by: Tonto at December 04, 2008 09:56 AM (Qv1xF)
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The Liberals are already calling cluster-bombs a WMD.
They don't consider ricin or sarin WMDs, but yet they pick a conventional weapon like cluster-bombs.
They told me that any non-nuclear weapon "doesn't count" as a WMD. Double-think at it's finest.
I still remember back a few years ago when they went ape over WP. They claimed that it counts as a WMD chemical weapon, because, get this, it has a chemical reaction.
Posted by: brando at December 04, 2008 10:19 AM (qzOby)
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There are still unexploded munitions buried in farm fields in France from WWI. Every so often a farmer, unfortunately, gets blown up. It sucks, but as long as war is a reality, then so are the unfortunate side effects.
These bans are no different than civilian gun bans in the U.S. They're all well and good until you come upon a country (criminal) who doesn't care about cluster bomb treaties (gun laws).
Maybe the world would be a better place if these people tried harder to avoid conflict altogether instead of worrying about limiting civilian casualties. The problem might resolve itself.
In the meantime, there's no good reason for us to try and limit our capability, in effect tying one hand behind our back.
Posted by: Mike Gray at December 04, 2008 10:40 AM (5npD/)
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When I was a young 'un, the weapons we now characterize as WMD were known as NCB - Nuclear, Chemical, Biological.
I wonder who was responsible for the change in terminology to the more emotive "weapons of mass destruction"?
Of these weapons, the only one that (IMO) is truly a weapon of mass destruction is the nuclear weapon.
And America is the only country that has used weapons of mass destruction to kill thousands of civilians.
Posted by: Suilamhain the Observant at December 04, 2008 11:12 AM (VRb5p)
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Earlier this year a Richmond area relic hunter was polishing up what he thought was a Civil War cannon ball. Turned out to be a powder filled shell. Pronounced dead on scene. The shell was at least 143 years old and still deadly. At least the signers of the anti-cluster bomb treaty will feel all warm and fuzzy tonight while they're sipping their fair market cocca
Posted by: Stretch at December 04, 2008 12:13 PM (hZLod)
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And America is the only country that has used weapons of mass destruction to kill thousands of civilians.
Yea, the thousands in the villages Saddam nerve gassed just got up, shook it off, and walked away like nothing happened...and the Japanese never performed biological experiments on Chinese prisoners either.
Posted by: PA at December 04, 2008 12:50 PM (CwzFE)
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Good point PA. Bear in mind Suli graciously modified the rules for his statement that only Nukuyler weapons are WMD. So within the very narrow scope he sets, the US is the only nation to succesfully deploy such a system in combat, and yes thousands of civilians were killed in those engagements. Not sure if Suli is actually throwing stones at the US, but I hope he doesn't confuse acts of war with genocide.
More to the point are your (PA's) comments. Saddam deployed chemical area weapons, and the Japanese did experiment with biologics. Additionally, Hitler was fond of the efficiency of gas (>1 million?), while Stalin was more pragmatic (20 million?).
I hope Suli also appreciates that the US is supposedly no longer in the Chem/Bio business, which, as he points out leaves only nuclear as a response to attacks of either of the other two non-conventional types??? I personally have always considered this a very powerful deterent. It certainly seems to have made Saddam think twice in PGW1 (Desert Storm).
Posted by: Gus Bailey at December 04, 2008 01:32 PM (LZarw)
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Of these weapons, the only one that (IMO) is truly a weapon of mass destruction is the nuclear weapon.
Utter hogwash, both historically ignorant and patently dishonest.
Of course Suilamhain the Observant would
attempt to define WMDs to exclude chemical weapons (or for that matter airliners); to do so allows him to dishonestly paint the United States as the only purveyor of WMD casualties, conveniently ignoring
2400 years of chemical weapons use that started with the Spartans in the Peloponnesian War.
He also seeks ignore the widespread the use of WMD chemical agents in WWI to cause 1,300,000 casualties, (including 90,000 deaths).
Even after WWI, the British, Spanish, and Italians used chemical weapons in the 1920 s and 30s in combat, and the Nazis used Zyklon B in gas chambers to commit the genocide of millions.
Egypt used phosgene and mustard gas again Yemen in the 1960s, and Russian forces used "Yellow Rain" (trichothecene mycotoxins) in regional wars (including Laos, Kampuchea, and Afghanistan) in the 1970s and 1980s.
But it was Iraqi forces under Saddam Hussein that used chemical weapons in greater concentrations and of more kinds than any modern nation including the first confirmed use of nerve agents) in the Iran-Iraq War, and later against the Iraqi people.
The difference in these uses of WMD and the U.S> use of atomic bombs at the end of WWII, was that the United States used atomic bombs to
save hundreds of thousands of lives (if not a million or more) that would have been lost if the Allies had been forced into an amphibious invasion and grinding assault on the Japanese homeland.
That's the reality. I'm sorry if Suilamhain the Not-So-Observant would rather ignore those truths.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 04, 2008 02:19 PM (HcgFD)
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Cluster bombs will be replaced by death rays from space that not only kill every living creature in the designated area, it steralizes the area. It will be a useful weapon on any area the size of D.C., which I hope is the first victim of it's use. By the way I'm watching the daily comedy show called 'congressional hearings' on the automobile company bailout as I type this.
Schumer and Dodd questioning the ethics/honest of anyone is a hoot.
Posted by: Scrapiron at December 04, 2008 02:19 PM (GAf+S)
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"It will be a useful weapon on any area the size of D.C., which I hope is the first victim of it's use."
What!?
Posted by: brando at December 04, 2008 02:55 PM (qzOby)
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I arrived at DaNang AB, RVN in late 1969, just after the TET attack. My unit was the 366 MMS. The NVA got in a lucky shot and hit the bomb dump at some sensitive point and set off a chain reaction involving one section of the storage yard. Afterwards, there were hundreds, if not thousands of un-exploded ordinance laying around everywhere. Most of the big stuff was un-fused and safe to pick up and dispose of by EOD. The bomblets were very dangerous. Some had spun up and armed but didn't blow up. The rest had just been scattered on the ground. EOD used a big chain drag to blow up the sensitive ones and us new guys got to help pick up the remainder (by hand). I was not a happy troop. At least no one got hurt.
I was amazed at how many 250's and 500's were thrown everywhere and did not explode.
I am thankful that I didn't have to work around things that go BOOM after 4 years.
Posted by: Marc Boyd at December 04, 2008 06:35 PM (Zoziv)
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As I recall the story, the relic collector killed by the explosives-filled Civil War shell did NOT misidentify it as a solid and therefore cannonball, but instead somehow caused it to explode while attempting to remove the fuse and gunpowder -- something he had done successfully many times before.
Posted by: Calumet7 at December 04, 2008 10:29 PM (Cs03u)
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And America is the only country that has used weapons of mass destruction to kill thousands of civilians.
Posted by Suilamhain the Observant at December 4, 2008 11:12 AM
If that is supposed to make us feel guilty, you aren't succeeding.
Posted by: iconoclast at December 05, 2008 12:40 AM (JP1UC)
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I was expressing my opinion that nuclear is the real WMD.
There is no doubt that chemical weapons have killed enormous numbers of people over the years. The difference is that you have to deploy a lot of chemicals to kill a lot of people. Nuclear weapons provide a much greater ROI in terms of killing power.
Of course I was aware of the casualties caused by chemical weapons in WW I, the inter war years, and by Saddam Hussein, which you elaborated on in some detail.
What you didn't mention at any point is that the US supported Saddam Hussein during the Iran-Iraq war, and continued that support even after his use of chemical weapons became known.
Posted by: Suilamhain the Observant at December 05, 2008 09:15 AM (VRb5p)
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Nuclear weapons provide a much greater ROI in terms of killing power.
Not even
close to being remotely true. It costs billions, if not trillions to develop a nuclear weapons program. Chemical and bioweapon WMD programs to attack similar numbers and create similar casualties are far less expensive, easier to develop, facilities are easier disguise, and deployment methods are for more numerous and unobtrusive, with signatures far less distinctive.
You really don't have the first clue what you are talking about, do you?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 05, 2008 09:25 AM (HcgFD)
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Errmm, did you read this bit...
"What you didn't mention at any point is that the US supported Saddam Hussein during the Iran-Iraq war, and continued that support even after his use of chemical weapons became known."
Posted by: Suilamhain the Observant at December 05, 2008 09:31 AM (VRb5p)
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Yes, Sully, we saw that. It is also utterly irrelevant to the subject at hand.
We also supported the British in WWI when they deployed chemical WMDs, and practiced biowar ourselves in the 1800s by giving the blankets of smallpox victims to Native Americans to infect their tribes. Most large nations have either created WMDs deployed WMDs, or allied themselves with nations who have.
All of that is utterly irrelevant to the subject at hand. This is your first and only troll warning. Keep it up, and you'll be banned, with your inane commentary dismissed.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 05, 2008 09:49 AM (HcgFD)
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I'm perplexed - what exactly is the subject at hand? I simply believe that nuclear weapons are in a different league compared to chemical and bio agents in terms of killing power.
If the US had decided to use chemical means to destroy Hiroshima (or rather kill most of its inhabitants) how many bombers, and what types of bombs and bombing techniques would have to be employed? Methinks it would have been completely unfeasible.
My comment about ROI was not a reference to the costs of developing nuclear weapons. It was a (perhaps badly phrased) way of saying that you can kill far more people with a single nuclear weapon than with a similarly sized chemical weapon.
Can you show me any instance of a similar number of people being killed by a single chemical weapon in a single incident as were killed in Hiroshima or Nagasaki? I think not.
Posted by: Suilamhain the Observant at December 05, 2008 10:07 AM (VRb5p)
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Perhaps you should look up Operation Downfall... if you really are curious.
Posted by: Patrick Chester at December 05, 2008 11:13 AM (MOvul)
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The subject at hand, Suila, was cluster bombs. Brando's comment about how "some are already calling them WMD's" started the process of derailing the thread, and your comment finished the process. Now can we stop talking about something irrelevant to the main topic, and start talking about cluster bombs again?
Posted by: Robin Munn at December 05, 2008 11:19 AM (hubMi)
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"What you didn't mention at any point is that the US supported Saddam Hussein during the Iran-Iraq war, and continued that support even after his use of chemical weapons became known."
Feel free to detail that "support." That canard has already been reduced to rubble, but I'd be happy to make it bounce one more time.
My comment about ROI was not a reference to the costs of developing nuclear weapons.
You should find words that mean what you're trying to say. Return on investment references cost, by definition.
Posted by: Pablo at December 05, 2008 11:46 AM (yTndK)
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I think that certain individuals want to prohibit the US from using cluster bombs because they're such a good weapon, and they'd love do hamstring the US.
I believe that the failure rate is much too high, but that's not really what this treaty does. It's just a flat out ban of a good weapon. So they just scream that it's illegal when it actually isn't. (Same for WP) What's a reasonable failure rate? 30%? 15%? 9%? Whatever could be achieved would never be good enough for the Liberals, because their goal isn't to get an effective weapon that protects non-combatants, but rather to remove weapons altogether. If the developers get it down to 10%, the Liberals would just move the goalposts again, and demand that it isn't 8%. And so on. CY had some good ideas about how to make them safer, but there would be no way to appease them, because a safe/effective weapon isn't their goal.
See? I wrote a comment without stating how perplexed I am (because I'm not), and also without using the word "Methinks".
Posted by: brando at December 06, 2008 11:59 AM (gNIlp)
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SDB's are not designed to replace cluster bombs, but rather to reduce collateral damage that would be caused by using a 2K pound bomb to take down a terrorist safe house in the middle of a city.
Posted by: emdfl at December 06, 2008 12:12 PM (N1uaO)
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Some (in-depth) explanation of that "army used smallpox" story (B.S. that Ward Churchill was pushing before) --
http://hnn.us/articles/7302.html
http://www.plagiary.org/smallpox-blankets.pdf
Posted by: Larry at December 06, 2008 01:23 PM (AGMH1)
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This is really a moot point, made by people with no other agenda than to limit our use of effective weapons. Already we are manufacturing cluster bombs with self-destructing submunitions:
"Submunitions are used to destroy an enemy in place (impact) or to slow or prevent enemy movement away from or through an area (area denial). Impact submunitions go off when they hit the ground. Area-denial submunitions, including FASCAM, have a limited active life and self-destruct after their active life has expired."
From
Federation of American Scientists website.
Ultimately, the impact submunitions will all have self-destuct mechanisms limiting the destructive life of the munitions to a few days.
Posted by: douglas at December 07, 2008 03:36 AM (20QoQ)
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During Vietnam the Soviet stooges tried to argue that .50-cal machine guns were illegal weapons. Someone else mentioned the silly campaign of lies that tried to turn white phosphorous smoke rounds into chemical weapons. This is just another phase in the campaign to turn anything the US does into a crime.
If, somehow, firearms stopped working and the US military adopted Roman arms, they'd find some grounds for declaring the gladius an "illegal weapon".
Posted by: Rob Crawford at December 07, 2008 09:04 AM (Bpq+O)
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The dud rate of CBUs is often caused by operator error not design deficiency. We dropped many cans of CBU-24, 49 and 52 in South East Asia. As a Stormy FAC out of DaNang, we carried 2 cans of CBU52 and found them very useful killing trucks.
The CBUs all use a SUU-30 dispenser - a clam shell, designed to separate safely from the aircraft, arm its radar fuse and open at a pre set altitude above the ground. If you "press" (drop below your planned altitude) the radar fuse may arm below its opening altitude and never see the range. The munition will hit at 12 o'clock and detonate low order, scattering bomblets around the crater.
In a proper delivery, the dispenser opens releasing several hundred soft ball or golf ball sized submunitions. These bomblets have vanes causing them to spin as they fall, arming a contact or delayed fuse through centrifugal motion. If they hit before they arm, they will not detonate.
There is a story about Ramsey Clark visiting POWs in Hanoi in 1971. The NVA had given him an unexploded CBU24 bomblet which he was tossing up in the air and catching. The POWs were almost all pilots. One of them told him to "Spin it faster!" Unfortunately, Clark did not.
One particularly bizarre event in 1972 involved a B52 cell at 28,000 feet dropping low drag Mk-82s from the wing stations and higher drag CBUs from the bomb bay. As the weapons descended, the 500 pounders gradually distanced themselves from the cluster bombs which had armed and were looking for 1,500' above the ground. At an altitude of about 15,000, the radar fuses saw the sticks of iron bombs and opened, scattering the bomblets over miles. The Buffs discontinued their use of CBUs.
Generally, CBUs are very effective against troops in the open.
Posted by: arch at December 07, 2008 12:07 PM (gPMC3)
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December 02, 2008
Sovereignty Is Not a Shield
Memeorandum is tracking the buzz on a Rabert Kagan op-ed in the Washington
Post, where Kagan offers the idea of—more or less—repossessing the parts of Pakistan where terrorist groups operate and placing them under some sort of international control. The proximate cause of his screed is the multi-day assault carried out by terrorists against civilian targets in Mumbai, India that places nuclear-armed neighbors India and Pakistan on a potential course for war.
He's considered an intellectual for this.
Rather than simply begging the Indians to show restraint, a better option could be to internationalize the response. Have the international community declare that parts of Pakistan have become ungovernable and a menace to international security. Establish an international force to work with the Pakistanis to root out terrorist camps in Kashmir as well as in the tribal areas. This would have the advantage of preventing a direct military confrontation between India and Pakistan. It might also save face for the Pakistani government, since the international community would be helping the central government reestablish its authority in areas where it has lost it. But whether or not Islamabad is happy, don't the international community and the United States, at the end of the day, have some obligation to demonstrate to the Indian people that we take attacks on them as seriously as we take attacks on ourselves?
Would such an action violate Pakistan's sovereignty? Yes, but nations should not be able to claim sovereign rights when they cannot control territory from which terrorist attacks are launched. If there is such a thing as a "responsibility to protect," which justifies international intervention to prevent humanitarian catastrophe either caused or allowed by a nation's government, there must also be a responsibility to protect one's neighbors from attacks from one's own territory, even when the attacks are carried out by "non-state actors."
In Pakistan's case, the continuing complicity of the military and intelligence services with terrorist groups pretty much shreds any claim to sovereign protection. The Bush administration has tried for years to work with both the military and the civilian government, providing billions of dollars in aid and advanced weaponry. But as my Carnegie Endowment colleague Ashley Tellis has noted, the strategy hasn't shown much success. After Mumbai, it has to be judged a failure. Until now, the military and intelligence services have remained more interested in wielding influence in Afghanistan through the Taliban and fighting India in Kashmir through terrorist groups than in cracking down. Perhaps they need a further incentive -- such as the prospect of seeing parts of their country placed in an international receivership.
I agree completely with Kagan on the key point: nation-states that cannot control their territory and have effectively ceded control of large portions to terrorist groups or other "non-state actors" also cede their claims of sovereignty. If a nation-state is attacked from within terrorist-controlled territory, they have the moral right—and I would argue, prime responsibility to their citizens—to respond with crushing military force.
But his solution—"seeing parts of their country placed in an international receivership"—must surely be a joke, or the harried keystrokes of a malformed column that was expelled in grotesque stillborn form.
If the international community were serious about contributing to helping settle territories controlled by terrorists, then Afghanistan would be a nation awash in foreign soldiers on peacekeeping duties and aid workers lavishing the bounty of developed nations on the backwards and downtrodden. Of course, that has not occurred. America's military fights with a largely symbolic handful of allies, most cursed with a lack of support from their home nations and hampered by rules of engagement that preclude them of being any practical use. Aid workers are few and far between in Afghanistan and constantly at risk; infrastructure improvements that would help change ancient incubators of extremism are few and far between. Kagan's idea was debunked by years of international apathy before it was ever written.
Being an intellectual, of course, Kagan feels compelled to re-offer this vinegared vintage yet again, hoping that someone will swallow it.
The simple, pragmatic fact of the matter is that no nation wants the responsibilities of another nation's struggles, but they do have every natural right to defend themselves from attack.
What Kagan cannot bring himself to write is that his beloved international community is disinterested in raising up those fractured territories. As a result of their apathy, they condemn these territories and states to be led by rogue actors, and for those within those areas to suffer reprisals. Some will deserve to die. Some will be innocents. Such is the nature of war.
Pakistan has failed to stop non-state actors from using their territory for international terrorism against their neighbors, and has morally forfeited any claims of sovereignty over the rogue regions of their nation. Indian military forces have every moral right to engage terror bases located in eastern Pakistan, as Afghani forces and coalition allies have even moral right to engage terrorist training camps and bases in the west.
This of course, will not assuage those who claim to represent "peace." Though militant Islam has been constantly at war since 632AD, these idealists, unable to understand other cultures do not think as they do, think negotiating is an answer. The militants, quite rightly, view forcing negotiations upon a far stronger power as evidence that their militancy works.
Among the polite and demure, there simply isn't understanding that sometimes, force can only be met with an overwhelming and punishing response. History shows us that terrorism stops when terrorist groups are crushed, are fractured, or are victorious. All three of those conclusions are dictated by violence.
The question is how much more innocent blood civilized societies will see run in their streets before the inevitable and overwhelming violent response that is required is finally deemed necessary.
Update: Ed Morrissey notes another reason to ignore Kagan's suggestion, primarily, how it would be used against Israel.
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These cats will not be belled merely by invoking 'the international community' any more than Italy was belled by the League of Nations.
If you want it done, you got to do it.
Posted by: Mikey NTH at December 02, 2008 02:34 PM (O9Cc8)
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Wow. This was a darn good post. Straight to the point and just flat out persuasive. Not a lot of wasted motion. At first I thought I was going to disagree, but I couldn't find anything to grab onto. Nicely done.
Posted by: brando at December 02, 2008 10:30 PM (gNIlp)
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I've been to Kashmir, and honestly I have no idea why this piece of land has caused so much fighting. If I were either Pakistan or India, I'd be begging the other side to claim it.
Posted by: Voice of Reason at December 03, 2008 03:46 AM (aIY/T)
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What exactly is 'international receivership'? I know what happens when you put a business into receivership and it is never good and the result is usually the end of the business.
The U.N. is going to lop off part of Pakistan and what, make it its own country and this will resolve the millenia old religious clashes.
And how come he is now raising the spectre of the obligation of the U.S. and the international community (apparently the U.S. is not part of it). The last time the U.S. followed this line of thinking (among others used), we invaded Iraq, which freed millions of people from an oppressive regime, but has generated strong backlash in this country and from the international community.
But this time, it would be ok, because Kagan says so. In the end, still invading a foreign country, regardless of the pretty language you use. And what are the objectives, what are the ROE?
Does anyone think the Pakistani's would accept this meekly? And they have nukes.
What is it with these intellectuals? Did he trade in his ability to reason for his degree?
Posted by: Penfold at December 03, 2008 01:37 PM (lF2Kk)
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except for the international component this is basically a recapitulation of the Bush doctrine. You harbor terrorists and your sovereignity is forfeit for whatever actions are required to kill said terrorists.
Posted by: RC at December 03, 2008 01:42 PM (wCqxr)
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Not satisfied with Bush's blatant violation of international law by declaring the right to "preventive war," a clear violation of the UN Charter and a policy that even Henry Kissinger said was not permissible for other nations (for obvious reasons,) Confederate Yankee wants to take it up another notch and nullify any nation's sovereignty that he deems to be not handling its terrorists to his satisfaction. The President wouldn't even have to declare another nation a threat before starting another war, he could just say they aren't being tough enough on terrorists and BAM! Permission to bomb! Don't even have to make up a story about being threatened. That's efficient.
Of course, unlike Kissinger, Yankee doesn't see how he's suggesting gutting international law and the US becoming an outlaw state. Doesn't bother you, does it, because you're scared to death of the terrorists getting you.
Do you not understand that after WWII the nations of the world realized that violating another nation's sovereignty was impermissible? And so they agreed no one is permitted to do it own their own initiative.
Do you understand? Have you no respect for the rule of law? Because the Constitution of the United States- its about the rule of law.
Irony! In the same breath, you complain about the UN! You do realize that only the Security Council can compel any country to do anything, and that the US has the veto, which it has used more than any other nation on the planet. I'm sure you don't acknowledge any connection between the veto and nothing getting done.
Posted by: smellthecoffee at December 06, 2008 11:15 PM (qMP3U)
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Makers of Crap Sandwich Now Pitching It With 10-Percent More Corn
The big three automakers are back in Washington, trying to convince Congress to
give them your hard-earned money so they can keep afloat businesses based upon a business model of first-rate pay for employees churning out second-rate cars:
Detroit's automakers, making a second bid for $25 billion in government funding, are presenting Congress with plans Tuesday to restructure their ailing companies and provide assurances that the bailout will help them survive and thrive.
General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co., and Chrysler LLC would refinance their companies' debt, cut executive pay, seek concessions from workers and find other ways of reviving their staggering companies.
U.S. automakers are struggling to stay afloat heading into 2009 under the weight of an economic meltdown, the worst auto sales in decades and a tight credit market. General Motors, Ford and Chrysler went through nearly $18 billion in cash reserves during the last quarter, and GM and Chrysler have said they could collapse in weeks.
Top executives from the Big Three failed last month to convince a skeptical Congress that they were worthy of $25 billion in loans. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid ordered them to outline major changes, including the elimination of lavish executive pay packages and assurances that taxpayers would be reimbursed for the loans.
All three companies are filing separate plans. Congressional hearings are planned for Thursday and Friday.
Let. Them. Fail.
We bailed out banks that gave credit to illegal aliens (Thanks Citibank!) and mortgages to morons that couldn't pay the minimums on their credit cards, and now babies are coming out of the womb owing money because Congress doesn't have the spine to tell these banks the honest truth that they deserve to fail for bad decision-making fueled by greed.
Likewise, the Big Three deserve to fail for their unsustainable business models of first-tier pay and benefits for often second-tier products. Let them file for bankruptcy, and hopefully learn a lesson in the process. If not, the lines of companies that feel they are "vital" and "too important to fail" will continue to grow.
Let. Them. Fail.
Call your Congressman. Call Your Senator. They'll keep taking your money until you scream, so tell them enough is enough now.
It's the only way to make these leeches stop.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Move to China, dump the unions, concentrate on designing and building better cars. Be successful.
Posted by: bill-tb at December 02, 2008 08:48 AM (7evkT)
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I couldn't agree more. In fact, bankruptcy and subsequent restructuring may very well be the ONLY way to save the Big Three. Bankruptcy doesn't necessarily mean that they'll go out of business. I think it's their only chance of surviving.
Look at the business models of the foreign auto manufactures who have plants here in America. We don't see them running to the government for handouts to survive. Furthermore, their employees seem to be well paid and quite content with their wage and benefit packages.
My brother, a 63 year old, very conservative attorney who usually votes Republican, said the other day that when the government bails out the financial and auto industries we are effectively socializing their debt but not socializing their profits. I think that he hit the nail on the head.
Dude
Posted by: Dude at December 02, 2008 09:41 AM (byA+E)
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This is just what Chapter 11 is for. Bailing out the automakers won't "save" them, it will only throw good money after bad. Restructuring is what they need in order to regain market, not a taxpayer funded reward for incompetence.
Posted by: Steve Skubinna at December 02, 2008 11:14 AM (Vcyz0)
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There is a critical difference between the banks and the auto makers.
The auto makers made their own bed and deserve to lie in it.
The banks were forced by Clinton, the CRA, HUD, Fannie, Freddie, and other government entities to make affirmative action loans and of course other opportunists rode in on the coattails of the "underserved" minorities.
The bank's problems are directly tracable to Bill Clinton, Janey Reno, Andrew Cumo, Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, Maxine Waters, Jamie Gorelik and the Democrats in general.
Posted by: RFYoung at December 02, 2008 11:42 AM (WqZCc)
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For aa company, bankruptcy is not the end of the world. It gives them a chance to get their act together.
PG&E went bankrupt and we still had lights and heat.
The unions took them to the cleaners and have been doing it for years. No company can do well with the amount of money being poured into retirement and health care funds.
Posted by: Dammit at December 02, 2008 12:14 PM (VLaYf)
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White it is true that much of the responsibility of the current financial mess in our country can be rightly blamed on Democrats, it is also true that the blame is equally shared by both major political parties in America. This is not a Democrat vs. Republican issue. Politicians and business people of all political stripes benefited from this "bubble" until it burst.
Furthermore, the "under served" minorities that people often mention as the major cause of the current mess are a only a drop in the bucket compared to the higher income people who also bought homes, condos and vacation homes that they couldn't afford. The banks loved it!
This ain't the first time that this has happened and likely won't be the last. It's a cycle that can be traced back to the Federal Reserve Act of December 23, 1923. This is a bi-partisan scam perpetuated against the American people by a few wealthy banking families in the US and Western Europe. The succession of "bailouts" that have occurred since the Fed was created is the payoff. The recipients of the bailouts are really the ones feeding at the public trough, exactly as planned.
Pitting Democrats and Republicans against each other is simply a diversion technique. Until the American people wake up and realize who the REAL culprit is in these ongoing government bailouts, and demand changing the fundamentals of the system, it will be business as usual regardless of which major party is in office.
Posted by: Dude at December 02, 2008 03:25 PM (byA+E)
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"We bailed out banks that gave credit to illegal aliens (Thanks Citibank!) and mortgages to morons that couldn't pay the minimums on their credit cards, and now babies are coming out of the womb owing money because Congress doesn't have the spine to tell these banks the honest truth that they deserve to fail for bad decision-making fueled by greed."
R.F. Young is right. But why is allways the taxpayer who gets to pay for Congress's mistakes while those who made the mistakes, such as Frank and Dodd, still control the purse strings.
Posted by: davod at December 03, 2008 06:21 AM (GUZAT)
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"But why is allways the taxpayer who gets to pay for Congress's mistakes while those who made the mistakes, such as Frank and Dodd, still control the purse strings."
Ooh! Oooh! I know! I know!
Because the taxpayers as a group are too dim to vote the scoundrels out of office and into jail, and in the final analysis -- in a republic -- the people get the type of government they deserve.
I voted against my incumbent Representative this year because he fell into the Dodd/Frank mold. He was even the same party as I am. Did you?
Posted by: Mark L at December 03, 2008 08:47 AM (bWB5j)
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Part of the problem is a semantic one. This is not an auto company bailout; it is a UAW bailout. The reason why they refuse to consider BK is that they know any BK judge would force renegotiation of the union contracts and pension and health programs. When you are drowning, you don't add life jackets, you cut loose the anchor chained to your leg.
Posted by: MIke K at December 03, 2008 09:49 AM (qyndN)
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"Part of the problem is a semantic one. This is not an auto company bailout; it is a UAW bailout. The reason why they refuse to consider BK is that they know any BK judge would force renegotiation of the union contracts and pension and health programs. When you are drowning, you don't add life jackets, you cut loose the anchor chained to your leg."
The problem that I see with this assertion is that it would be to the auto companies' benefit to have a bankruptcy judge force the renegotiation of the union contracts and pension and health programs.
That being the case, why would the auto companies management be asking for a bailout in order to keep in place the current UAW contract with its strangling provisions, work rules, healthcare costs, etc? Seems to me that from a management perspective that they would welcome an opportunity to be rid of burden of the current contracts.
There has to be more to it than that.
Posted by: Dude at December 03, 2008 11:33 AM (byA+E)
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The politics of the bailout were deconstructed a bit for us here in Ga courtesy of Chambliss and Martin. At the end, Martin was running an ad that ties Chambliss to the "Wall Street Bailout" which is the $700b original bailout which of course he DID vote for and in the same ad lambastes him for not supporting Barry's "Stimulus Package" which is ANOTHER bailout. Left out of any of this is that Barry also voted for the bailout. Was that wrong? Such a notion is never even entertained as the Martin people seem confident it is so unknown as to be irrelevant. But the result, a 14% blowout without Barry generating Dem turnout tells the tale. These people who gave Barry his margin are basically apolitical. They know nothing of what Obama or McCain or Bush do or say. They know nothing of the offices in play and quite nearly nothing of the people involved. This ignorance is a luxury, perhaps the second luxury of national wealth after a longer life. It is a luxury they can no longer (or not much longer) afford and that is good for the country at large. Look at your most obnoxious Obamoid acquaintances. They are genuinely and sincerely shocked that Barack has yet to cure all evils with his gentle words. And that boob isn't even in office yet. It is Reality Therapy and in the end it is the only cure. Hurts like hell though.
As for the relative culpability of the parties, it is true that the Republicans failed to reign in the Democrats. It is untrue to say they did not attempt to do so. Any hint of oversight at Fannie and Freddie (which legislation and lesser acts were proposed by Bush and McCain at different times and by a few other big names) was denounced as a racist assault by Dodd/Frank and their media fellow travelers. I can blame Reps for spending excesses and responsibility may plausibly reside with them for some securities problems but the mortgage disaster is 100% the fault of Democrats (many of whom made VAST fortunes from same) and stereotypical Dem policies. As such there is no prospect for improvement here and serious room for yet greater depradations unless Barry actually is the Messiah. Hope for that.
Posted by: megapotamus at December 03, 2008 03:24 PM (LF+qW)
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Dude, probably because a bankruptcy judge would also slash the CEOs salaries and bonuses; if they get a bailout, they can still get their dinero.
Mind you, I am not in any way advocating government regulation of CEO pay... just providing a possible reason that the Big 3 CEOs are willing to beg for a handout rather than go through bankruptcy.
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at December 03, 2008 08:48 PM (Banpw)
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"Chapter 11 baby! Read about it. It's somewhere between chapter 10 and chapter 13. Bottom line: Big 3 would dissolve their contracts with the unions and start fresh. But the dems CAN'T let THAT happen. Them's their buddies."
This problem is MUCH more complex than THAT. For one thing, the Big 3 won't have the authority to dissolve their contracts, even in Chapter 11. That's up to the bankruptcy judge.
I have a feeling that this bailout IS going to happen, in one form or another. As I've said before, it wouldn't matter which political party is in power.
Pitting Dems against Pubs is simply a diversion by BOTH parties. In fact, if history is any indication at all you'll see the two parties make compromises to make sure that the American Auto Manufacturers don't go bust. Of course, the ONLY way for this to be successful is for the UAW to be forced to make major concessions, too.
Posted by: Dude at December 04, 2008 10:09 AM (byA+E)
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Well, Dude, if both parties really are in an
eeeeeeeeeeeeevil conspiwacy to do something nefarious, you'd best start looking for a cave somewhere in the woods where you can hide from the Black Helicopters, shouldn't you?
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at December 04, 2008 05:44 PM (Banpw)
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You know, CW? I'm not really sure if Dude is due that level of Snark. Granted he compared so many different fruits in his long screed above that I thought I was getting in line for a nice refreshing fruit salad, but he doesn't appear to me to be worried about those helicopters either.
How about it, Dude? Would you care to try to explain how this I personally know several housing developers (Republicans) who did very well with the housing bubble over the past few years. None of their projects were Fannie nor Freddie. equates to Dodd/Frank (Democrat politicians) making loads on the situation? Do "...several housing developers (Republicans)..." = Democrat politicians?
For my two cents on any government bailout scenario for any 'business sector' - I am against it. I told my Rep and Sens to NOT vote for the "700B bailout of Wall Street" because I happen to believe in free market corrections. Chapter 11 is the only real answer to the US auto industry right now. They will come out of it leaner and potentially profitable.
Posted by: PhyCon (formerly Mark) at December 04, 2008 06:15 PM (4od5C)
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I still can't get over the ridiculousness that the leftist illuminati is even ENTERTAINED the idea of following this through. Our country will not fail due to a few poorly run companies not having money
Posted by: ew at December 05, 2008 03:30 PM (8z7qO)
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If you are going to trash an American industry that has lasted a century, you owe it to the rest of us to read this:
http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/
The import companies wisely located in states with foundering economies thereby wrangling hundreds of millions in the form of incentives and tax breaks. They also looked for depressed employment numbers (read wages) so the money offered was just a little above the median. The imports have their homeboys health covered by their national networks and ALL of the profit they make here gets sent home, much as the illegal workers do.
The gap in quality is now narrow enough to call it closed. In 2006 Toyota recalled more cars than it built. GM's Fairfax Assembly plant won the Bronze award from J.D. Power in productivity for 2008 against ALL the North American facilities D3 and carpetbaggers combined. They build the award winning Chevy Malibu and the award winning Saturn Aura in standard and hybrid configurations.
4 million people looking for work now. People are screaming for Government to do something. Now add job losses to the tune of 3 million more from the auto industry. Do you see the formula for insurrection?
This whole flap about the economy can be traced directly back to the Carter/Clinton years with the Community Reinvestment Act. Add to that Obama's ACORN and remember George W. Bush tried 12 TIMES to throttle back the lending industry without agreement from Chris Dodd or Barney Frank.
If these subprime buyers had been held at bay, the housing prices would have held not have had the wild runup to 2006 levels. Much of the economy's growth over 5 years was due to borrowed money being spent on consumer goods. I would take a flat economy any day over what we see now.
Thanks to the bundling of bad loans, speculators ran the markets thru the roof, much like commodities speculators did with crude oil this year.
The D3 is guilty of building vehicles that the public would buy. They just forgot to count on $4.00 oil.
The Chevy Volt is the bright spot. Estimated battery power range is 40 miles. Then a 1.0 turbocharged E-85 capable engine fires up and powers the vehicle thru the electrics and charges the battery with unused current.
Range: 400 miles
So there. Keep the jobs in America.
Posted by: H8 foreigners and their influence at December 07, 2008 01:23 AM (16Mwg)
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December 01, 2008
Future Stupid Weapons
Embrace the absurdity of the chainsaw bayonet.
Via the Firearms Blog.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:02 AM
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Post contains 17 words, total size 1 kb.
1
Gears of War in real life. Pumpkins do make poor substitutes for Locust though.
Posted by: Tristan Phillips at December 01, 2008 09:36 AM (0tV1H)
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Looks like someone has been playing too much Warhammer 40K.
I like how he proudly struts back towards the camera. "I totally eviserated those chaos cultists!"
Posted by: brando at December 01, 2008 09:46 AM (qzOby)
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I want one before the Obamessiah gun/chainsaw ban comes into effect.
Posted by: Federale at December 01, 2008 12:05 PM (9Ocfc)
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He should be careful of his toes.
Posted by: brando at December 01, 2008 12:43 PM (qzOby)
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I only wish I'd thought of it.
Posted by: Mike Gray at December 01, 2008 01:07 PM (kZVsz)
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He's got nothing on the Rocket Propelled Chainsaw.
Posted by: Alpheus at December 01, 2008 03:22 PM (rkV8b)
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Darwin award in 3...2...1...
Posted by: Vercingetorix at December 01, 2008 04:13 PM (N8eC4)
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the moderator is a fucking tool. can't handle dissent to save his life. Go fuck yourself
Posted by: I can see your're a dumb fuck from here at December 01, 2008 09:54 PM (UXc6D)
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