August 24, 2006
Hezbollah's White Phosphorus Lies: Part 2, the Conclusive Debunking
Remember less than a month ago when I wrote
this?
It was only a matter of time before Hezbollah and their gullible dupes in the media began applying the Terrorist Propaganda Cook Book to the present war in Lebanon, accusing Israel forces of using chemical and other "illegal weapons" against civilians.
The Sydney Morning Herald was all too willing to print these suspiciously vague allegations:
Killed by Israeli air raids, the Lebanese dead are charred in a way local doctors, who have lived through years of civil war and Israeli occupation, say they have not seen before.
Bachir Cham, a Belgian-Lebanese doctor at the Southern Medical Centre in Sidon, received eight bodies after an Israeli air raid on nearby Rmeili which he said exhibited such wounds.
He has taken 24 samples from the bodies to test what killed them. He believes it is a chemical.
Cham said the bodies of some victims were "black as shoes, so they are definitely using chemical weapons. They are all black but their hair and skin is intact so they are not really burnt. It is something else."
"If you burnt someone with petrol their hair would burn and their skin would burn down to the bone. The Israelis are 100 per cent using chemical weapons."
I stated that:
The arguments are recycled, the evidence contrived; there is no credible evidence that chemical or white phosphorus weapons are being used to target Lebanese civilians, and it is telling that the media are all too willing to be led down this same path of lies again.
It turns out that I was right (thanks to LGF for finding the video). The debunkings of the Greg Mitchell's of the world are coming so fast I can hardly keep up with them...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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White phosphorous in contact with human skin burns all the way through and keeps burning until the phosphorous is consumed. The obvious sign is big, gaping, burning holes, not what was described.
Posted by: olddawg at August 24, 2006 08:32 PM (Si1mC)
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Self-Inflicted Wounds
First published as a weekly in 1884 as
The Journalist,
Editor & Publisher (E&P) is a monthly journal covering the North American newspaper industry.
Since 2002, Greg Mitchell has been the Editor of E&P, and he writes both an online and print column. While I've never read the print version, I have occasionally read Mitchell's online Pressing Issues column, and have actually written about what he has had to say twice in the past.
Click. Print. Bang. was a reaction to the mind of Mitchell, as in his column he advocated that the media should attempt to actively undermine (subscriber-only) the current U.S. President:
No matter which party they generally favor or political stripes they wear, newspapers and other media outlets need to confront the fact that America faces a crisis almost without equal in recent decades.
Our president, in a time of war, terrorism and nuclear intrigue, will likely remain in office for another 33 months, with crushingly low approval ratings that are still inching lower. Facing a similar problem, voters had a chance to quickly toss Jimmy Carter out of office, and did so. With a similar lengthy period left on his White House lease, Richard Nixon quit, facing impeachment. Neither outcome is at hand this time.
Lacking an impeachable offense and disappointed that Bush was reelected to a second term, Mitchell made the following alarmist cry to the journalistic community:
The alarm should be bi-partisan. Many Republicans fear their president's image as a bumbler will hurt their party for years. The rest may fret about the almost certain paralysis within the administration, or a reversal of certain favorite policies. A Gallup poll this week revealed that 44% of Republicans want some or all troops brought home from Iraq. Do they really believe that their president will do that any time soon, if ever?
Democrats, meanwhile, cross their fingers that Bush doesn't do something really stupid -- i.e. nuke Iran -- while they try to win control of at least one house in Congress by doing nothing yet somehow earning (they hope) the anti-Bush vote.
Meanwhile, a severely weakened president retains, and has shown he is willing to use, all of his commander-in-chief authority, and then some.
Mitchell's tone is both decidedly shrill and purposefully ominous, as he advocates his solution (while saying he doesn't) for what he seems to regard as the Bush problem.
I don't have a solution myself now, although all pleas for serious probes, journalistic or official, of the many alleged White House misdeeds should be heeded. But my point here is simply to start the discussion, and urge that the media, first, recognize that the crisis—or, if you want to say, impending crisis -- exists, and begin to explore the ways to confront it.
Not content with the news being reported by the media about the administration, Mitchell was publicly pushing for a confrontational antagonistic policy to be used to try to undermine the White House; a smear campaign to "start the discussion." He pushes, in no uncertain terms, to use the media to dig up scandals, building doubts and fears (his warning that people should, "cross their fingers that Bush doesn't do something really stupid -- i.e. nuke Iran" is a clear indication of his mindset).
What he hopes to accomplish by building distrust and fear of the White House in an influential media is open to interpretation, but based upon his earlier comments that Bush seemed neither likely to be impeached nor voted out, Mitchell seems to hope that with enough fear-mongering, someone sufficiently alarmed by the kind of coverage he hopes to gin up might find another way to remove Bush from office.
Not just hostile to the President, however, Mitchell has gone out of his way to condemn Israel's response to Hezbollah's rain of rockets on Israeli civilian targets, while dismissing Hezbollah's attempts at mass murder:
The word “rockets” makes Hezbollah's terror weapon of choice seem very space age, but they are in fact crude, unguided and with limited range – nothing like the U.S. prime grade weapons on the Israeli side. The vast majority of them land in the water or an empty field or explode in the air.
Mitchell again made his opinion on who was more at fault in the recent Hezbollah-triggered war in this column, and as you might expect, Mitchell placed the blame for Lebanese deaths squarely upon Israel and the White House, refusing to even mention Hezbollah's role in the column except to say that Israel created it.
Given his obvious biases, it should have been no surprise when Mitchell released this first part of a two-part column yesterday, attacking those bloggers who questioned the manipulation and staging of photos from some photojournalists in the recent war, primarily fought in Lebanon. His defense should have been expected, as every example of staged or manipulated stories and photographs attacked Israel, and the exposure of this journalistic fraud undermined the anti-Israeli view Mitchell has clearly decided to advocate.
Allahpundit at Hot Air rightfully took Mitchell's column to task, pointing out that clear examples of journalistic fraud did in fact occur, and catches Mitchell misrepresenting the comments made by Bryan Denton, a U.S. photojournalist witness to the sight of some staging performed by Lebanese wire service photographers.
Allah also notes that while Mitchell blasts bloggers and the suspicions and allegations they've made of staged photos, he pointedly refuses to discuss the fact that a German television station captured live video showing just such staging as it occurred in Qana. One can only imagine how much effort Mitchell took to avoid this well-documented proof that one of the most influential stories of the Hezbollah-Israeli war, the so-called Red Cross ambulance attack, was, in fact, almost certainly a complete fraud.
All of this sets up today's editorial from Mitchell, In Defense of War Photographers: Part II, in which Mitchell continues:
In a column here on Tuesday, I mounted a defense of the overwhelming number of press photographers in the Middle East who bravely, under horrid conditions, in recent weeks have sent back graphic and revealing pictures from the war zones, only to be smeared, as a group, by rightwing bloggers aiming, as always, to discredit the media as a whole.
Which is not to say that this is much ado about nothing. Obviously, Adnan Hajj, the Reuters photographer who doctored at least two images, deserved to be dismissed. A handful of other pictures snapped by others warrant investigation. In a few cases, caption information was wrong or misleading, and required correction. In addition, the controversy has sparked an overdue discussion -- some of it here at E&P -- on the credibility of all photography in the Photoshop age and the wide use of local stringers abroad in a time of cutbacks in supervision.
But, in general, the serious charges and wacky conspiracy theories against the photographers, and their news organizations, are largely unfounded, and politically driven, while at times raising valid questions, such as what represents "staging."
Were press photographers smeared, as Mitchell states, as a group?
I have heard no one doubting that news photographers have put their lives on the line to capture stories, and even when what they capture on film isn't always popular or what we want to hear in the past, we've debated it without clearly taking sides based upon ideology.
I can state for my part that I questioned the overall story the media was presenting from Qana based upon seeming inconsistencies between the stories and the photographic evidence. These questions raised by myself and others helped get an investigation launched—thought Mitchell doubtlessly disproves of it, as it is not the kind of investigation that serves the interests Mitchell's observed bias.
This success in rooting out some apparent fraud led to bloggers to look more closely at the other media information coming out of Lebanon for more, where other suspicious photos and stories emerged.
Did rightwing bloggers attempt to smear the entire media, as Mitchell alleges, or were they targeting specific questionable stories, specific questionable photographs, and photographers exhibiting a suspicious pattern of behavior?
The answer, quite obvious to those that actually read the blog posts and the commentary they generated, is that bloggers investigating specific instances uncovered general problems with how the media gathered news and verified the accuracy of the information, a fact that Mitchell begrudgingly admits. I'd like to know which "wacky conspiracy theories" Mitchell was referring to, as the Qana staging episode and the Red Cross ambulance stories most thought implausible when first proposed by bloggers, turned out to be absolutely correct.
In a significant number of the more widely disseminated blog posts asking questions and making accusations about suspicious media accounts, the suspicions of bloggers turned out to be quite well-founded. Contrary to Mitchell's suggestions, quite a few—more than a handful—of the more widely regarded questions raised by bloggers were exposed apparent staging or fraud--a remarkable achievement by people thousands of miles away from the story, doing the fact-checking and analysis that the media should have been doing, but much to their embarrassment, often did not.
Mitchell, apparently then unable to go much further on his own, decides to simply turn to the Lightstalkers photography forum, and quote heavily from media photographers denying that manipulation and staging took place. And while the much-respected Tim Fadek can say all he wants that the scene in Qana wasn't staged, and other photographers choose to take his observations as fact, when I see with my own eyes on YouTube that it was indeed directed by none other than Mr. Green Helmet himself, I have every right to doubt the veracity of Mr. Fadek and other photographers that denied Qana was staged, along with the media organizations that try to act that such compelling evidence of malfeasance does not exist.
I suspect that Mitchell's next groundbreaking column will expose that according to interviews with inmates at San Quentin, 99% are actually innocent.
This E&P editorial chooses to dodge the real issues of the media's vetting of the accuracy of the stories and photographs that they chose to print coming out of Lebanon and other venues, just as they dodged how so many pictures and events ever had reason to be questioned in the first place.
Greg Mitchell, Editor of Editor & Publisher shows himself to be a prime example of exactly what bloggers fear most in the media; a newscrafter, not a newsman, with a quite specific and heavily partisan agenda. He seems terrified that if the public actually looked too closely at how the sometimes tainted product of the news business is manufactured, they might discover it has fewer quality checks than a disposable diaper, and sadly, sometimes ends up smelling much the same.
David Perlmutter wrote of the problems with photojournalism last week:
I'm not sure, however, if the craft I love is being murdered, committing suicide, or both.
A simple glance at such industry leaders as Greg Mitchell suggests that not only are the wounds are indeed self-inflicted, but that some newscrafters can't keep their fingers from jerking the trigger.
Update: Allah reacts as well.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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An excellent takedown of Greg Mitchell. I've taken issue with his advocacy journalism in the past, and have learned not to take anything he says too seriously. My question is, do other journalists really think he's the best person to run the industry's premier trade publication? I personally can't see how anyone can deny his full blown case of BDS, especially after he wrote that ridiculous piece titled, "Will Press Put Out Fire on Iran?"
Posted by: Granddaddy Long Legs at August 24, 2006 02:49 PM (q73o1)
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"...if the public actually looked too closely at how the sometimes tainted product of the news business is manufactured, they might discover it has fewer quality checks than a disposable diaper..."
...and is a lot harder to change.
Posted by: Jim Treacher at August 24, 2006 03:19 PM (28pwE)
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And while the much-respected Tim Fadek
And while the
formerly much-respected Tim Fadek... ;->
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 24, 2006 03:49 PM (c/xwT)
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Yes, there's no doubting that E&P's Greg Mitchell gets wackier by the day. Obviously he appeals to his audience: Bush-hating newspapermen who predominate in newspaper journalism.
Some in the MSM, on the other hand, may be catching onto Mitchell -- something that was underscored a few weeks ago when a prominent newspaper editor in Colorado pronounced him "irrelevant." This column, I sensed, struck a nerver in some MSM quarters; perhaps Mitchell's days are in fact numbered.
It's sad that Mitchell fails to realize that's he's living in another era -- an issue I also blogged about in: "Iran's Got Nukes! What me worry?"
Ultimately, Mitchell symbolizes all that is wrong with agenda-driven senior editors and journalists in the MSM who came of age during Watergate and the Vietnam War. I wonder if Mitchell still pecks away at an old-fashioned typewriter.
Posted by: David Paulin at August 24, 2006 09:38 PM (GIL7z)
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Wow. I did my own analysis of his opinion piece at my blog. I had no idea he was the friggin' editor of the O&E. I'm honestly shocked that someone so devoid of the ability to make a rational arguement could be in charge.
Posted by: EdBanky at August 25, 2006 12:41 PM (ye7jq)
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I think what we're facing here is the difference between guilt- and shame/face-based honor values. What we used to call Western Civilization used to have as a fundamental principle that the individual's motives and actions were inherently honorable or dishonorable, in the all-seeing-eye of God, if not of man. One who commits dishonorable acts feels guilt about them.
A shame-based concept of honor, as we have seen in Japan, the Islamic world, and closer to home in wackademia or ghetto culture, the act itself is not dishonorable so much as is the revelation of the act.
A Muslim woman who complains that she has been raped is bringing dishonor on the male members of her family, whose manhood is challenged because should have protected her from being raped. In order to save face, they must therefore disbelieve the charge of rape, and decide that she was a willing participant in the act, which then justifies killing her to restore the family honor.
When Bill Cosby or Juan Williams (As Saul became Paul, he sounds like he needs a new name to represent his recent conversion!) discuss shortcomings within the black community, they have brought dishonor on that community, and must be punished. Actual criminals have more respect than 'snitches'.
When Jeff Goldstein eviscerates 'higher education', daring to show us rubes the tools being used to indoctrinate our children, he becomes the target of blinding rage, descending from garden-variety moonbattery into the black hole of cyberstalking.
When the Dextrosphere shows outright fakery such as done by Hajj, or the lesser manipulations such as Flat Fatima's serial homelessness, the Passion of the Toys, or the sundry Hezbowood productions of Green Helmet, the damage to the honor of the MSM is not seen as caused by their wrongful acts, but of our daring to mention them.
"A small child said 'Mommy, why is the man with the crown naked?'. Fortunately, he was immediately killed by Imperial Security agents, and the matter was soon forgotten. Damn fine threads, Your Majesty!"
Posted by: The Monster at August 25, 2006 11:35 PM (tw5mW)
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August 23, 2006
Bitter Much?
CNN's web team doesn't appear to be a big fan of Joe Lieberman. While the
actual article carries the headline, "Lieberman secures spot on November ballot," the Web team decided this was a fitting link:
This would presumably be the same "fine folks" that brought us this gem in July:
Top-notch. Professional. Pithy.
This is CNN.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Well, did you actually read that bit about Bush?
"He loves to cuss, gets a jolly when a mountain biker wipes out trying to keep up with him, and now we're learning that the first frat boy loves flatulence jokes. A top insider let that slip when explaining why President Bush is paranoid around women, always worried about his behavior. But he's still a funny, earthy guy who, for example, can't get enough of fart jokes. He's also known to cut a few for laughs, especially when greeting new young aides, but forget about getting people to gas about that."
Now
that's top-notch and professional...
Posted by: legion at August 23, 2006 01:40 PM (3eWKF)
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All valid points, legion.
I just wish Bush would just quietly get sucked off by interns in secret.
Top-notch and professional...
Posted by: Hoodlumman at August 23, 2006 02:27 PM (FAZ6l)
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Whats unprofessional about that? I just came from a meeting with a vendor where I was letting loose with pickled cabbage powered stink bombs the entire time. It's an effective negotiating tool in a closed room. She would have given me the parts for free if I had kept her in there any longer. As it was she escaped with just some mild discomfort and I got a decent price. I thought about eating chili and eggs for breakfast to really drive my point home but now I'm glad I didn't.
the above is all b/s but man i love a good fart joke.
Posted by: chad at August 23, 2006 02:28 PM (lNQg8)
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Shorter Confederate Yankee:
"Sore Loserman? Nope, doesn't ring a bell."
Posted by: Doug at August 23, 2006 03:24 PM (jd34Q)
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"The most trusted name in"...ummm, ahh, infomercials. Yea, infomercials!
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 23, 2006 05:19 PM (c/xwT)
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They have major problems with their headlines. In CNN World, Bushitler is the Primary Loser, but the article is about Lieberman?
Posted by: pbrown at August 23, 2006 06:46 PM (7b6pT)
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Bushitler is the Primary Loser, but the article is about Lieberman?
As Ace would say -- "layers".
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 23, 2006 07:41 PM (c/xwT)
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They also aren't fans of Homes, northwest passengers, mt lions, pythons and Paramount.
oh my...
slow news day, I guess...
Posted by: matt a at August 24, 2006 08:15 AM (GvAmg)
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Why do you watche CNN anyway?? I gave up years ago.
As to Bush, he was a DKE in school as I recall. That is normal behavior for that fraternity.
Posted by: David Caskey at August 24, 2006 11:15 AM (6wTpy)
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that headline is a very fair headline, because Lieberman's placement on the ballot is remarkable only because he lost his primary campaign. Otherwise it is not newsworthy. Name the last person to lose a primary and run in that general.
Posted by: terrapinbeach at August 28, 2006 01:34 PM (JKQGb)
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Carolina FreedomNet 2006
The John Locke Foundation will be hosting a half-day blogger conference,
Carolina FreedomNet 2006, open to all on Saturday, October 7 in Greensboro, North Carolina, from 8:00 AM-2:00 PM.
I've been invited to be on the 8:45 AM-10:15 AM Local vs. Global: What Should Be Your Blog's Focus? panel with Lorie Byrd of Wizbang, Sam Hieb of Sam's Notes, and Sister Toldjah.
A second panel of will attempt to answer the question of How Has The Blogging Phenomenon Affected Politics and Political Discourse?, and will feature Townhall.com's Mary Katharine Ham, Jeff Taylor of The Meck Deck, Scott Elliott of Election Projection and Josh Manchester of The Adventures of Chester.
Scott Johnson of Powerline will be giving the keynote speech, titled The 61st Minute: Inside the Eye of Hurricane Dan.
If interested in attending, you can register for Carolina FreedomNet 2006 here.
I hope to see you there.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Would love to be there, considering some of my most favorite bloggers will be speaking. Unfortunately I live on the other side of the world.
Any chance of some sort of live link-up?
In any case best wishes and hope it goes well.
Posted by: The Polarizer at August 23, 2006 11:27 AM (mfkDG)
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"Backdoor Draft?" Marines Respond
Marines on the Inactive Ready Reserve (IRR) are being
recalled to active duty consistent with the commitment they signed up for, and some of the
predictably clueless are claiming that this constitutes a "backdoor draft," when it is of course nothing of the sort.
Two very irritated Marine bloggers, Paul and Brando of Brandodojo ripped into these folks last night.
From Paul in the comments of that post:
People like to call this a "back door draft" because they're idiots and are intentionally using misleading rhetoric to bring up emotions from the Vietnam war, which is the last time a draft was used. They use "backdoor" as if the government is using some sneaky loophole, but this also isn't true. All a servicemember has to do is open up their SRB and look at their contract and read what it says. It's not even in "fine print." It's right there. In my case it says, plain as day, 5 years active, 3 years IRR.
Back to my main point: The offensive part of the "backdoor draft" bullshit is that it's used by two groups of people: 1) People who have never served 2) People who have served and refuse to be accountable for their signature.
I don't have a problem with people being pissed about it -- they're leaving their new lives or whatever and going to a shithole country where they might blow up -- everyone I know was pissed but they still went. That's what matters.
In no uncertain terms, this is something that every Marine signs up for, and is clearly part of their commitment. Implying this is sneaky or underhanded behavior and not a standard part of a Marine's service commitment is simply dishonest.
* * *
Interestingly enough, liberal Ron Chusid cites the CNN article linked above and then states:
If actions such as this continue the trend towards decreased voluntary recruits, this could be yet another way in which George Bush is underming [sic] our long term national security.
But if you follow Mr. Chusid's link, you will find it is obsolete, being over a year old, and concerning only part of the year at that. I last wrote about military recruiting a little over a month ago, and it shows Ron's "truthiness" deserves to be called into question:
Military recruiting for June once again met or exceeded goals across all four branches (h/t Paul at Adventurepan:
- Marines: 105%
- Army: 102%
- Air Force:101%
- Navy: 100%
You'll note that the Marine Corps and Army, responsible for fielding most of the forces on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan, have exceeded their goals by the largest margins, despite having higher target numbers than the other branches. They achieved this in the face of a mainstream media attempting to portray the military as rapists, racists, and murderers based up the alleged actions of a handful of men.
Since October 1, all four branches have met or exceed their goals:
- Army: 104%
- Marines: 101%
- Air Force: 101%
- Navy: 100%
Reserve forces recruiting has not been as even, but interesting enough, the Reserve and Guard forces most likely to be called upon for ground combat overseas (Army National Guard, Army Reserves, Marine Corps Reserves) have been the most successful in recruiting.
One could argue that this also represents only part of the year, but it is the most current data; far more relevant than statistics over a year old that were not reflective of the overall year's total.
About.com's U.S. Military Recruiting Statistics page confirms that recruiting for 2006 (so far) and 2005 were either met or exceeded for both years by all active duty branches. Funny how Mr. Chusid was unable to find those figures, isn't it?
Chusid cherry-picked a story concerning several months in 2005, ignoring the overall 2005 and 2006 recruiting data that undermines his chosen storyline. Honesty is apparently not high on the list of Liberal Values.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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A "shithole country"? Two U.S. Marines called Iraq a "shithole country"?
I don't understand. I thought Iraq was supposed to be a democracy now, a free country whose people have hope for the first time in their lives and are free to live however they want to live.
How can a country like that be called a "shithole country"? And what if Iraqis were to read that U.S. Marines are calling their country a "shithole country"? Wouldn't that increase anti-American feeling in the Middle East? Are these Marines trying to sabotage the U.S. mission in Iraq?
Posted by: Kathy at August 23, 2006 05:14 PM (GdRpd)
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I think I had maybe 7 years on the inactive reserve...but that was well over 20 years ago and I can't remember anymore ;->
Carter was prez around that time...I remember that much ;->
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 23, 2006 05:22 PM (c/xwT)
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Kathy--
Stop being silly. You seem pretty enamoured with the place -- spend a week in Iraq (or Afghanistan), witness the poverty, the corruption, and the lack of sanitation, and tell me I'm wrong.
Uh oh, some Iraqis might read Confederate Yankee and be outraged? An outraged Iraqi -- that'd be new. I understand it's pretty hard to get those guys excited and violent, so I hope I didn't overstep my bounds.
And FYI: Yes, we are both (former) Marines. One of the many honors that comes with claiming the title "Marine" is the privledge of being on the edge of history, seeing these places first hand, and having a hand in changing things. The only edge you'll ever be on is your seat, hoping US troops get killed so some cretin with a bad comb-over can win the next election.
Any Marine who's been over there will tell you the country is a shithole, but at least they're doing something to change it.
Posted by: paully at August 23, 2006 05:41 PM (yJuX3)
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Ha ha ha!
Kathy = pwnt
Just shut up.
Idiot.
Posted by: Jinxy at August 23, 2006 05:54 PM (Gxzfi)
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Gosh, Paul. I don't understand why you are angry at me. I know from reading conservative blogs that conservatives are very concerned about the harm to our troops that can be done when Americans say things or express opinions that could increase anti-American feeling among Iraqis (and others in the Middle East). For example, Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. These things make Muslims think we don't respect them, and then they get more anti-American. So I was just surprised that you guys would call Iraq a "shithole" when, number one, you know that could increase anti-American feeling, and number two, you know it's not true that Iraq is a shithole! Iraq was a shithole under Saddam! Now it's been liberated and democracy is on the march and things are getting better all the time. And Iraqis love Americans so far, so let's not make them think we don't like them.
Make sense?
Posted by: Kathy at August 23, 2006 06:38 PM (GdRpd)
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Kathy,
Your line of typical liberal speutum isn't even engaging or interesting.
It's just dull and inarticulate pure sarcasm that reveals a deeper truth about you which is that you obviously don't know jackshit about what the world is like outside the narrow confines of your no doubt cat-filled, lonely city apartment.
Get outside once and a while and maybe you'll see what the rest of the world is actually like, instead of wrapping yourself in the comfortable sweater of your own smug sense of superiority and self-righteousness.
Then maybe you won't spout off again as you just did and reveal your complete and utter ignorance of the greater world at large.
I weep for your future students.
Posted by: Jinxy at August 23, 2006 07:02 PM (B+qrE)
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Kathy... It's really hard for me to tell whether you're joking or not, or whether your comments are being made tongue-in-cheek. If you're being serious, all I can say is that I envy your naivety, and wish I could spend a few weeks in your Candyland world, frolicking in butterscotch waterfalls.
Let's talk about "shithole". I worked in Afghanistan for 7 months. I think Afghans are stand-up people. I liked them a lot. Karzai's a dapper dude and know's what's going on. Kabul's insane, but it's relatively safe....but I would still consider Afghanistan a shithole. There is filth, garbage, and feces everywhere, poverty, the traffic is insane, etc.. When I say "shithole" I'm not referring to the political situation -- not everything is political with me -- I'm referring to the general state of cleanliness. It's similar to when my mother would tell me my room looked like a "shithole." She was referring to its general state of cleanliness, not the political regime under which my room was being ruled.
I'm not sure how to respond to you because of statements like "...Iraqis love Americans so far, so let's not make them think we don't like them. Make sense?" No, it doesn't make sense. Some like us, some don't. Would you feel safe as an American walking down the street in a major Iraqi city in broad daylight? Until you can answer "yes," you might want to rethink your assessment on Iraqi attitudes towards Americans.
Posted by: paully at August 23, 2006 07:14 PM (yJuX3)
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Paul's mom told him his room was a "shithole"?
Bwahahaha.
Oh, too much.
Posted by: Jinxy at August 23, 2006 07:42 PM (B+qrE)
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When I say "shithole" I'm not referring to the political situation
Most people would agree Juarez and Tijuana are "shitholes".
The Arbor Hill neighborhood in Albany NY is a "shithole".
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 23, 2006 07:45 PM (c/xwT)
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"...you obviously don't know jackshit about what the world is like outside the narrow confines of your no doubt cat-filled, lonely city apartment."
Wow, Jinxy. Nail right on the head. Yet another reason why I enjoy talking to conservatives so much. You guys are so perceptive.
"Get outside once and a while and maybe you'll see what the rest of the world is actually like, instead of wrapping yourself in the comfortable sweater of your own smug sense of superiority and self-righteousness."
Well, I don't know about the getting out part, because I haven't left my lonely city apartment in 10 years. That said, though, I have to tell you I *love* that metaphor: I think I'll use it with my students this fall.
"Let's talk about "shithole". I worked in Afghanistan for 7 months. I think Afghans are stand-up people. I liked them a lot. Karzai's a dapper dude and know's what's going on. Kabul's insane, but it's relatively safe....but I would still consider Afghanistan a shithole. There is filth, garbage, and feces everywhere, poverty, the traffic is insane, etc.. When I say "shithole" I'm not referring to the political situation -- not everything is political with me -- I'm referring to the general state of cleanliness. It's similar to when my mother would tell me my room looked like a "shithole." She was referring to its general state of cleanliness, not the political regime under which my room was being ruled."
Okay, how would you characterize the political situation? I have read and heard so much here in the U.S. about how much better life is for Afghans now. The women have been liberated; they can wear Western clothes, go to school, hold jobs, walk by themselves, marry whoever they like. I've read that Afghanistan is a democracy now.
From what you've said above, it doesn't sound like this is true.
"I'm not sure how to respond to you because of statements like "...Iraqis love Americans so far, so let's not make them think we don't like them. Make sense?" No, it doesn't make sense. Some like us, some don't."
Well, from everything I read on the conservative blogs (and they are the ones who generally support the U.S. being in Afghanistan and Iraq, so that's why I specify them), the vast majority of Iraqis are happy that Americans are in Iraq, and they don't want us to leave. I mean eventually, yes, but the vast majority want us to stay as long as the U.S. government thinks it's necessary to stay. They're not in any burning rush for Americans to leave, iow.
So when you say that some Iraqis like Americans and some don't, that doesn't sound like "the vast majority like Americans." Which is it?
"Would you feel safe as an American walking down the street in a major Iraqi city in broad daylight? Until you can answer "yes," you might want to rethink your assessment on Iraqi attitudes towards Americans."
To your first question, no, definitely not. But I question my own sense that I would not feel safe in Iraq as an American, because I read so much about how the violence there is greatly exaggerated, and that Iraqis can move around freely without fear, go where they want, do what they want. I read that Iraq is a free country now, that it's a democracy, that Iraqis are finally free. That doesn't sound like a dangerous place. It sounds like a good place to be. Plus, if the vast majority of Iraqis are happy Americans are there, doesn't that mean I *SHOULD* feel safe there?
And to your second question, I have a return question: Why do I read on so many conservative blogs that most Iraqis are happy U.S. troops are there, and that it's no more dangerous there than in your average big city in the U.S.?
Posted by: Kathy at August 23, 2006 07:54 PM (GdRpd)
11
The single biggest factor in any country are the actual people living there, and by that standard, Iraq is a shithole.
About a year ago, I was reading comparisons of post war Germany or Japan, and juxtaposing them with postwar Iraq. The conclusions the writer made was that the important variable that made Iraq construction weak, and Germany/Japan construction strong, was the effort of the US. Not the actual people living there.
Comparing the 2 most industrious and productive peoples in recent history with Iraqis, and then pretending to be confused about the difference is disingenuous.
I know that there are those of you out there that are screaming "Racist!" out there. I didn't say that the cause of the difference was genetic, and I don't even feel that way. What I'm saying is that there are cultural differences between Iraqis, and Japanese, and one of those differences is productivity.
Back to the topic of the draft. The draft is a very bad thing. Please don't misuse the word, or it loses all of its bite. Heinlein had the coolest quote about it.
"I also think there are prices too high to pay to save the United States. Conscription is one of them. Conscription is slavery, and I don't think that any people or nation has a right to save itself at the price of slavery for anyone, no matter what name it is called. We have had the draft for twenty years now; I think this is shameful. If a country can't save itself through the volunteer service of its own free people, then I say: Let the damned thing go down the drain!" -RAH 1961
Posted by: brando at August 23, 2006 08:18 PM (K+VjK)
12
Are you citing right-wing blogs in the hopes of finding some sort of solidarity with me? Or are you going to try and "trick" me into agreeing with me so you can launch some sneaky counter-attack, punctuated with a triumphant "AHHA!!"? It's not going to work, because I'm not as conservative as you think, and I'm not the type to agree with someone just because they're "conservative" or whatever. Hell, I think this blog is great, but I don't necessarily agree with everything he says. Furthermore, if the left can skew numbers to mean what they want them to mean, so can the right. I'm not going to rally in the streets based on what some "pundit" is bleating about. I won't base my opinions off of political blogs* -- most are far leaning and have an agenda. I'd much rather base my opinions off of what I've seen and people of integrity and credibility who have been over there. Your buddy Eugene Debs might agree -- being a citizen of the world gives one an opportunity to meet such people.
The political situation in Afghanistan is better, and I have no idea how you would arrive at the assumption, based on what I wrote, that women can't go to school or that Afghanistan is not a democracy. Just because you make a country a democracy doesn't mean that public sanitation and equality rights will magically those of the USA in 2006. Expecting as much is unreasonable, naive, and ethnocentric. I'm not going to get into it any deeper than that because that's not the topic at hand, and at risk of sounding condescending, the socio-political situation there is too complicated to explain in simple terms that you can relate to or understand. I'd hate to give you information to misuse posted by a "Marine on a Conservative Blog".
* - ...this isn't exactly true -- I have formed the opinion (from blogs) that most people have no idea what they're talking about and have absolutely no concept or idea of what anyone is like outside of the USA.
ps: jinxy, my mom also used to say that it "looked like a hurricane went through my room". clearly she is a racist.
Posted by: paully at August 23, 2006 08:56 PM (yJuX3)
13
Kathy, although I think that you are asking questions from a liberal viewpoint, (i.e. rejoice when Americans are killed) I'll do my best to answer one of your questions as though you are honestly asking it. Maybe someone else will read it too. Here's your question.
"Why do I read on so many conservative blogs that most Iraqis are happy U.S. troops are there, and that it's no more dangerous there than in your average big city in the U.S.?"
I don't know about the blogs, but I can tell you what I perceived in Iraq. Iraqis want us there, but they want us to absolutely rule them. They want us to take care of everything, and make Iraq into a little America, while they are safe to sit back and complain. The concept of civic duty or paying taxes would be completely lost on them. I equate it to the mind set that happens to lifetime prison inmates. You get 3 squares a day, a bed, a roof over your head, and you never have to lift a finger. Even if you are in a relatively safe prison, you're still in prison. I think you made the equivalent of freedom and safety, when I doubt that they're even correlated. I'd rather be shoved out the door, and have to find a meal and a place to sleep, than be a slave. So you're question is complicated. Do Iraqis like us? Well, yes, but only because they like power, and we are the most powerful faction right now. And a temporary faction. Can't blame 'em for being fickle. If I were in their shoes, I'd probably hedge my bets too.
You asked about what the correct or incorrect things are to do, when it comes to inspiring terrorists. This comes from direct observation with dealing with arabs. Most people that have been to the middle east will tell you the same thing.
Weakness. Draws. Aggression.
As for the danger level, yeah it's dangerous, but it's not exactly like we were unarmed. However if we're viewing a people or place from a distance it's easy and convenient to view it as homogeneous, when itÂ’s actually really fragmented. Iraq is a country with 25 million people. That's a lot of folks of all different types, and a lot of areas with very different danger levels.
Chicagoland has only about 6 million people or so. Would you feel safe walking at night in Chicago? It would make a big difference if I was talking about Evanston or Gary.
The short version is that the North (kurds) is pretty productive, and the extreme south (shia), is clipping along like a normal country. It's just where there is a fault line of different sorts. They want to butcher each other, and we're throwing a monkey wrench in their plans. I think that splitting it up into 3 countries would be a great idea, but that's up to the Iraqis.
I hope that helps a little, and I didn't just muddy the waters more.
Posted by: brando at August 23, 2006 09:03 PM (K+VjK)
14
"You're" is actually "your" Dangit.
Posted by: brando at August 23, 2006 09:08 PM (K+VjK)
15
Recruiting goals, 2003-2006, for the army: 73,800; 77,000; 62,385; 60,150. The other services see similar reduction in goals. It's obviously good they're able to recruit, but one wonders just how meaningful this metric is.
Posted by: jpe at August 23, 2006 09:53 PM (Tk5Zz)
16
Brando,
Re your comments about the industriousness and productivity of the Iraqi people compared to those in Germany and Japan, and that explaining why postwar reconstruction worked so much better in the case of the latter two countries:
It might also have helped that, in the case of Germany and Japan, (1) those two countries were crushed, completely and utterly defeated, with no insurgency or guerrilla resistance taking money and troops to put down; (2) the United States had planned the reconstruction of postwar Germany and Japan for years before it took place, (3) that millions of dollars were spent on the reconstruction, and (4) that there were considerably more than 140,000 U.S. troops in Europe and the Pacific theater in 1945.
You might have picked up that I disagree with your assessment of the Iraqi people as being unproductive, inefficient, and lazy. I don't think you can use such words to describe people who built the kind of infrastructure Iraq had before 1991. Iraqi engineers are (or were; there aren't many left now, since they tended to be more affluent and mostly have left the country) second to none in the world. I don't think it's fair (to put it very, very mildly) to look at the condition of a people after the 1991 Gulf War (in which Iraqi infrastructure was destroyed) and after this latest U.S. invasion and war and occupation and insurgency and sectarian violence, which has now lasted longer than the entire U.S. involvement in WWII, and make the judgment, from your perspective as a member of the military that invaded Iraq, that Iraqis are inferior in terms of productivity, industriousness, and efficiency. I could say more, but I'll stop, since I've probably enraged you enough for ten replies. Sorry about that, but your comments enraged me.
Posted by: Kathy at August 23, 2006 10:40 PM (GdRpd)
17
Here is my reply to Paul's latest:
No, Paul, I am not citing right-wing blogs to trick you with a sneaky counterattack. I was genuinely flabbergasted to find you describing conditions in Iraq as being exactly the opposite of how conservative bloggers describe it (and since Bob linked to you and Brando seemingly because he approved of and agreed with your military point of view, I did assume you feel comfortable with the political leanings of this blog). Even more than this, though, I was astonished to find YOU describing conditions in Afghanistan and Iraq to ME in a manner that I have been attacked for using myself.
To untangle that sentence a bit: I have been attacked on conservative blogs for writing that conditions in Iraq are terrible (and in Afghanistan, but I haven't written on Afghanistan as much). The same things you said, Paul. I have called Iraq a hellhole (I believe that has approximately the same thing as "shithole") and been called un-American, a traitor, a left-wing moonbat, and other assorted appellations. Now here I find out that Iraq most certainly is a shithole -- and from a U.S. marine, no less.
You might understand why I was a bit confused.
Also, I did not assume that you thought Afghan women could not go to school, etc. I was telling you that YOUR description of Afghanistan as a shithole contradicted what I had heard from conservative bloggers about Afghan women being liberated from oppression, and being able to do all the things Western women can do.
Basically, *I* think that conservatives are very, very conflicted in the way they characterize Afghanistan and Iraq. When reacting to people who oppose the war and believe that conditions there are horrendous, they say that everything is much, much better and so much progress is being made and the people who live there are happy and free and strong and making great strides to protecting themselves. When talking to each other, or when not aware that you may be talking to -- gasp! a liberal -- there is a very different tenor to the talk: Iraq is a shithole, Iraqis are welfare queens, can't do anything for themselves, want us to stay and be Big Daddy, etc.
Posted by: Kathy at August 23, 2006 10:59 PM (GdRpd)
18
"...as a member of the military that invaded Iraq..."
This statement tells me exactly where she's coming from.
Now, clean up your room, Paully.
Posted by: Jinxy at August 23, 2006 11:09 PM (B+qrE)
19
Shame on you. Using Liberal and Honest in the same sentence.
Posted by: Scrapiron at August 23, 2006 11:48 PM (tt0Pe)
20
Kathy, I'm not attacking you, but you've been misinformed. Please don't be angry. I'm not your enemy. I sure hope you don't see US Marines as your enemy. I'm simply stating my first person experiences. I hope they hold more weight than Michael Moore rants.
I was in Mahmudiyah (15 miles south of Baghdad), so I'll only speak to what I know. Maybe the rest of the country was rock solid. There's a reason I don't like to use the world "re-construction". I don't think that Mahumdiyah ever had a working sewage treatment facility. They dumped buckets of feces and urine directly into the streets. People literally lived in mud huts. To say that Iraq was not just a 1st world country, but on par with Japan, Germany, or the US is not only untrue, but laughably untrue. I saw no indication that pre 1991 Iraqi was a 1st world country, and certainly no indication that it's engineers were "second to none". We took over a power plant on the Euphrates river, which I think was build and run by Soviets because all the books in the library were in Russian. Don't believe me? I even have
one. Not Iraqi technicians. Russian. I worked with Iraqis on a nearly daily basis for 7 months, and I can assure you that they are indeed unproductive, inefficient, and lazy. ItÂ’s really hard to exaggerate. I could put together a stronger fighting force with an American Jr. High football team. Please understand that this is a general theme. They do have their all-stars, just like any population. I feel a little bit bad about making fun of them, because some of them were my boys. I actually liked some of them, and wrote my own
little post about it.
Again, I'm not attacking you. I'm saying that the picture that's been painted for you is untrue. I don’t see CY as a “conservative” blog, although I suppose it is. I get a kick out of him because he’s so completely anti-terrorism.
Anyway, don't worry about enraging me. I sort of dig it when liberals say really insane anti-military stuff. It makes me mad a little, but it gives me stuff to repeat. Tell me the real deal.
Posted by: brando at August 23, 2006 11:50 PM (K+VjK)
21
Would you feel safe as an American walking down the street in a major Iraqi city in broad daylight?
I don't feel safe walking down the street in major American cities in broad daylight.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 24, 2006 04:40 AM (c/xwT)
22
Brando,
The tone of your response to me is respectful and even charming, and I appreciate that.
I don't want to say to you that your own experience holds no weight with me, and I won't. Of course, your experience is your experience, and it's valid.
Third, about Iraqi technicians being unproductive, inefficient, and lazy, and not being capable of building bridges, tunnels, highways, power plants, etc.: Your conclusions contradict the memories and knowledge of others, who are Iraqi. There are many such, but one in particular whose writing I know very well is Riverbend at Baghdad Burning. She is an Iraqi computer programmer (former computer programmer; she can't work at her profession in Iraq anymore) who writes a blog of the above name. She was living in Baghdad with her family when the U.S. invaded. She experienced everything that happened there. And, with specific regard to Iraqi engineering talents, she wrote one particular blog post about that very subject, taking issue with this idea Americans have that Iraqis can't do anything for themselves and have to have Halliburton come in and rebuild their infrastructure for them. Who do you think built all the bridges, roads, buildings, tunnels, sewage treatment plants, telecommunications facilities, power plants, etc., that were in Iraq before the Gulf War?
Your observations and impressions are the result of your experiences in Iraq NOW. They are not informed or given texture or context by a deeper understanding of Iraq's history BEFORE you were there.
Consider also the possibility that the Iraqi men who "work for you" (you are their boss, right?) are "lazy, unproductive, and inefficient" because they have no motivation to be otherwise. Would you be motivated to work your butt off, be productive, industrious, and efficient, if the work you were doing was at the order and instruction of a foreign occupying army? No disrespect intended to your service, Brando, but facts are facts. This is what the U.S. military IS in Iraq, and it's certainly how it's perceived by Iraqis. Maybe the Iraqis you know would be motivated to work harder and strut their stuff if they felt that they were autonomous, independent, free human beings working to rebuild their own country, rather than working to do the projects the U.S. decides they are going to do.
I realize that this sentiment is generally regarded by war supporters as being "anti-military," but it isn't. I just am used to putting myself in the other person's position, when I'm inclined to judge them harshly. And I know I would not like to be supervised and ordered around by Iraqi military officers in my own country. I take it as a given that Iraqis feel similarly about being ordered around by Americans in *their* country.
Finally, Brando, you write this: "I feel a little bad about making fun of them, because some of them were my boys."
Brando, "your BOYS"? I have to tell you, your use of the word "boys" to describe grown men is not only offensive but highly revealing of the way you view them. Do you call your fellow Marines who serve under you "your BOYS," or do you call them "your MEN"? Do commanding officers in Iraq generally call the U.S. troops under them their "boys" or their "men"? Do officers say "the boys in my unit"?
I want to say one more thing. You tell me "the picture that's been painted for me" is wrong. Brando, *no picture has been painted for me.* I am a grown woman, an educated woman, an intelligent woman, and a reasonably well-informed woman. I read voraciously, of my own free will, and nobody tells me what to read. I don't read Michael Moore, btw. I don't read MoveOn, or DU. I read widely, from all different kinds of print material -- books, articles, blogs, newspapers, journals, magazines, etc. -- and from many different perspectives. I don't have your direct experience, but that does not mean I am misinformed.
Respectfully,
Kathy
I don't doubt that you've seen what you describe having seen; but it seems to me that you are drawing larger conclusions from what you've seen that are not informed by a larger context, and that are not necessarily true.
First, your remarks about Muhmadiyah. You say you don't think they ever had a working sewage treatment plant. You say they dump buckets of feces and urine directly into the streets. This does not surprise me at all. Are you aware that, in the 1991 Gulf War, the U.S. bombed and destroyed almost all, if not all, of Iraq's infrastructure? I mentioned this before, but I repeat it because I wonder if you know what that implies. There were any number of articles and reports (many by firsthand witnesses) written at the time about sewage running raw in the streets because sewage treatment plants had been destroyed. Water purification facilities were also destroyed. This is not what public health conditions were like in Iraq before the Persian Gulf War.
Furthermore, Iraq was never able to rebuild the infrastructure satisfactorily because of the sanctions, which went on for 12 years.
So to look at the sewage treatment facility in Muhmadiyah now, and conclude that it was never a working facility, based on what you see now, is to view conditions totally out of context. You say that you see no indication from conditions now that Iraq was ever a first world country or that its engineers were second to none, but how can you even begin to make that judgment when you do not know what Iraq was like pre-1991? It was not a first world country, true, but neither was it the cesspool it is now.
Re the power plant on the Euphrates: Obviously I believe you about the books in the library all being in Russian, and I don't know why that was, but as far as I know the Soviets were never in Iraq and did not build any power plants there. And regardless, you cannot draw sweeping conclusions about all of Iraq's pre-1991 infrastructure based on one facility.
Second, I did not at any time say that Iraq was a "first world country" of the kind that Germany and Japan were. I said that your using the example of the success of postwar reconstruction in Germany and Japan to support your argument that the German people and the Japanese people were and are more industrious and productive and efficient than the Iraqi people is incorrect, and misleading, because the United States planned Europe's reconstruction for literally YEARS, and devoted money and resources to that reconstruction that were not even dreamed of in the case of Iraq. To that, I might add that Germany and Japan were real, legitimate nations with centuries of history before WWII. Iraq has *never* been a real, legitimate nation. It was cobbled together from the remains of the old Ottoman Empire by Britain after WWI. Iraq has always been a Western colonial creation. Comparing Iraq to Germany and Japan is both unfair and misleading.
Posted by: Kathy at August 24, 2006 06:36 AM (GdRpd)
23
The order in my post somehow got completely garbled. It's all there, but it's out of order. I'm going to fix it and repost.
Kathy
Posted by: Kathy at August 24, 2006 06:38 AM (GdRpd)
24
Brando,
The tone of your response to me is respectful and even charming, and I appreciate that.
I don't want to say to you that your own experience holds no weight with me, and I won't. Of course, your experience is your experience, and it's valid.
I don't doubt that you've seen what you describe having seen; but it seems to me that you are drawing larger conclusions from what you've seen that are not informed by a larger context, and that are not necessarily true.
First, your remarks about Muhmadiyah. You say you don't think they ever had a working sewage treatment plant. You say they dump buckets of feces and urine directly into the streets. This does not surprise me at all. Are you aware that, in the 1991 Gulf War, the U.S. bombed and destroyed almost all, if not all, of Iraq's infrastructure? I mentioned this before, but I repeat it because I wonder if you know what that implies. There were any number of articles and reports (many by firsthand witnesses) written at the time about sewage running raw in the streets because sewage treatment plants had been destroyed. Water purification facilities were also destroyed. This is not what public health conditions were like in Iraq before the Persian Gulf War.
Furthermore, Iraq was never able to rebuild the infrastructure satisfactorily because of the sanctions, which went on for 12 years.
So to look at the sewage treatment facility in Muhmadiyah now, and conclude that it was never a working facility, based on what you see now, is to view conditions totally out of context. You say that you see no indication from conditions now that Iraq was ever a first world country or that its engineers were second to none, but how can you even begin to make that judgment when you do not know what Iraq was like pre-1991? It was not a first world country, true, but neither was it the cesspool it is now.
Re the power plant on the Euphrates: Obviously I believe you about the books in the library all being in Russian, and I don't know why that was, but as far as I know the Soviets were never in Iraq and did not build any power plants there. And regardless, you cannot draw sweeping conclusions about all of Iraq's pre-1991 infrastructure based on one facility.
Second, I did not at any time say that Iraq was a "first world country" of the kind that Germany and Japan were. I said that your using the example of the success of postwar reconstruction in Germany and Japan to support your argument that the German people and the Japanese people were and are more industrious and productive and efficient than the Iraqi people is incorrect, and misleading, because the United States planned Europe's reconstruction for literally YEARS, and devoted money and resources to that reconstruction that were not even dreamed of in the case of Iraq. To that, I might add that Germany and Japan were real, legitimate nations with centuries of history before WWII. Iraq has *never* been a real, legitimate nation. It was cobbled together from the remains of the old Ottoman Empire by Britain after WWI. Iraq has always been a Western colonial creation. Comparing Iraq to Germany and Japan is both unfair and misleading.
Third, about Iraqi technicians being unproductive, inefficient, and lazy, and not being capable of building bridges, tunnels, highways, power plants, etc.: Your conclusions contradict the memories and knowledge of others, who are Iraqi. There are many such, but one in particular whose writing I know very well is Riverbend at Baghdad Burning. She is an Iraqi computer programmer (former computer programmer; she can't work at her profession in Iraq anymore) who writes a blog of the above name. She was living in Baghdad with her family when the U.S. invaded. She experienced everything that happened there. And, with specific regard to Iraqi engineering talents, she wrote one particular blog post about that very subject, taking issue with this idea Americans have that Iraqis can't do anything for themselves and have to have Halliburton come in and rebuild their infrastructure for them. Who do you think built all the bridges, roads, buildings, tunnels, sewage treatment plants, telecommunications facilities, power plants, etc., that were in Iraq before the Gulf War?
Your observations and impressions are the result of your experiences in Iraq NOW. They are not informed or given texture or context by a deeper understanding of Iraq's history BEFORE you were there.
Consider also the possibility that the Iraqi men who "work for you" (you are their boss, right?) are "lazy, unproductive, and inefficient" because they have no motivation to be otherwise. Would you be motivated to work your butt off, be productive, industrious, and efficient, if the work you were doing was at the order and instruction of a foreign occupying army? No disrespect intended to your service, Brando, but facts are facts. This is what the U.S. military IS in Iraq, and it's certainly how it's perceived by Iraqis. Maybe the Iraqis you know would be motivated to work harder and strut their stuff if they felt that they were autonomous, independent, free human beings working to rebuild their own country, rather than working to do the projects the U.S. decides they are going to do.
I realize that this sentiment is generally regarded by war supporters as being "anti-military," but it isn't. I just am used to putting myself in the other person's position, when I'm inclined to judge them harshly. And I know I would not like to be supervised and ordered around by Iraqi military officers in my own country. I take it as a given that Iraqis feel similarly about being ordered around by Americans in *their* country.
Finally, Brando, you write this: "I feel a little bad about making fun of them, because some of them were my boys."
Brando, "your BOYS"? I have to tell you, your use of the word "boys" to describe grown men is not only offensive but highly revealing of the way you view them. Do you call your fellow Marines who serve under you "your BOYS," or do you call them "your MEN"? Do commanding officers in Iraq generally call the U.S. troops under them their "boys" or their "men"? Do officers say "the boys in my unit"?
I want to say one more thing. You tell me "the picture that's been painted for me" is wrong. Brando, *no picture has been painted for me.* I am a grown woman, an educated woman, an intelligent woman, and a reasonably well-informed woman. I read voraciously, of my own free will, and nobody tells me what to read. I don't read Michael Moore, btw. I don't read MoveOn, or DU. I read widely, from all different kinds of print material -- books, articles, blogs, newspapers, journals, magazines, etc. -- and from many different perspectives. I don't have your direct experience, but that does not mean I am misinformed.
Respectfully,
Kathy
Posted by: Kathy at August 24, 2006 06:42 AM (GdRpd)
25
Kathy--
Referring to someone as your "boy" is a term of endearment used among today's youth. Didn't you say you were a teacher? You should spend more time listening to them. Right now everyone who read how offended you got at brando's use of the term is laughing at you, probably like your students do when you no doubt sprew equally ridiculous garbage in class.
"Consider also the possibility that the Iraqi men who "work for you" (you are their boss, right?) are "lazy, unproductive, and inefficient" because they have no motivation to be otherwise."
You mean like having a part in creating a good place for you and your family and future generations to live? How about showing the "occupying army" that they can handle things by themselves? Maybe you should re-read your paragraph for a verbatim answer as to why Iraqis should be motivated?
You really showed your ass on that last post, so I'm gonna quit this thread because I'm a bit flabbergasted right now. It hurts me that you are educating our future. Peace n chicken grease. (hopefully you find that offensive somehow too)
ps. riverbend is a nutjob
Posted by: paully at August 24, 2006 10:02 AM (dhl+a)
26
"(hopefully you find that offensive somehow too)"
Not at all; I always consider the source before getting offended.
Regards,
Kathy
Posted by: Kathy at August 24, 2006 10:15 AM (GdRpd)
27
"You really showed your ass on that last post..."
And you showed your true colors; it was amazing to see the mask drop.
"(hopefully you find that offensive somehow too)"
Not at all; I always consider the source before getting offended.
Regards,
Kathy
Posted by: Kathy at August 24, 2006 10:16 AM (GdRpd)
28
As I have seen southern Iraq first hand ( I flew with a Naval Squadron over southern Iraq doing multiple missions) I will say that the Marines assesment of Iraq is dead on it is a shithole, there is sewage all over, the rivers have dead animal carcauses in them, there is garbage all over the place.
Also while some Iraqis do want us there, there are many who dont I dont propose to know why but I have been shot at by all tpyes from young to very old so to say they all want us there is wrong to. I am neither far left or far right I am middle of the road I see points from both sides and as the Marines said it is easier when you have seen the outside world firsthand. This is just my two cents worth think of it what you will.
Posted by: 81 at August 24, 2006 10:49 AM (lNB+R)
29
One last note each and everyone one of us who have served were told and know that while you may be enlisted from four to five years active service you are a part of the IRR for a period of a total of eight years. (That does include your active time) So if you served for five years they have the right and obligation if need be to recall you at anytime for the next three years. Its in black and white and all of us are told about it!
Posted by: 81 at August 24, 2006 10:53 AM (JSetw)
30
Kathy,
You are obviously well read and well informed. It's the accuracy of your info that I have to question.
"Who do you think built the roads, bridges..."
I happen to be an engineer. I have both studied and personally seen modern, middle-eastern construction and engineering. Nobody is doubting the ability of an Iraqi to get an education if they so desire, but Iraqi's did not build their modern country. Their American and Western European educated engineers did the planning, and the construction was done on the backs of "guest workers" from other Arabic and Persian countries that had the misfortune of not being parked on top of a sea of oil.
You say that you are just "... trying to put myself in the other person's position" but I think you only manage to succeed in highlighting your cultural "American-style" ignorance. How the holy hell could you ever imagine what their position is. Did somebody blog it? Are you reading this in the safety and comfort of your air conditioned McMansion? Please tell me that you are not so naive as to base your obviously passionate beliefs on something you read? If this is true, I know a few Japanese with some very informative bits of info on their Greater Co-Prosperity Sphere.
You harpooned Mr. Brando for his comments on his time spent at the sunny, fun-filled, Muhmadiyah crap cleaning plant. Since you feel that he can't see past his nose, or the year 1991, I challenge you to tell me who built that plant? Was it the undereducated, wellfare state populace of Iraqis that were used to their nuevo riche government handing them modern day conviences, or maybe a Russian government that was scared shitless by the thought of a muslim uprising because they were busy bombing the shit out of one of their neighbors?
Kathy, you are dealing with a group of people that have experienced a culture that is so foreign to our Western way of living as to be almost unimaginable. You are attempting to tell these people that their experiences aren't valid because of their preconceived notions about a foreign culture that you yourself have only read about. On top of this, you allowed yourself to get suckered into a name calling contest. Honestly now.
Posted by: Joe at August 25, 2006 03:10 PM (1I80M)
Posted by: john smith at August 25, 2006 06:46 PM (byFw2)
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F-16s Escort NW Flight to Amsterdam
Could be something,
could be nothing:
A Northwest Airlines flight bound for India was escorted back to Amsterdam's Schiphol Airport by F-16 fighter jets on Wednesday.
The plane was turned around after "a couple of passengers displayed behavior of concern," according to Northwest Airlines.
"Northwest is cooperating with the appropriate government officials," the company said in a statement.
The DC-10 plane, bound for Mumbai, was carrying 149 passengers, Northwest said. Flight number 42 has been canceled and will be rescheduled for Thursday.
The airport spokeswoman said the pilot had requested to return to Amsterdam and after the plane landed, there were some arrests.
She would not specify if those arrested were passengers.
Sources told Dutch journalist Marijn Tebbens that the disturbance was the result of some unruly passengers. The plane landed safely at 11:39 a.m. (5:39 a.m. ET), the sources said.
This sounds supicious, but at this point we have very little concrete information to go on. I'm am curious about odd sentence from the airport spokeswoman, "She would not specify if those arrested were passengers."
Who else would it be, an errant dogwalker?
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"Who else would it be, an errant dogwalker?"
Flight crew?
Posted by: Jimmy at August 23, 2006 01:09 PM (+aO9k)
2
The sentence doesn't actually say that those arrested were on the plane, only that after the plane landed, there were some arrests.
They could have arrested ground crew or others at the terminal as well...
Posted by: matt a at August 24, 2006 10:23 AM (GvAmg)
3
Time for an update.
--
Early on in the flight, the Northwest Airlines crew decided to turn around and head back to Amsterdam, where the men were then taken into custody.
A statement from the prosecutor's office now says the phones were examined, and they hadn't been manipulated. Authorities also found that there were no explosives on the plane.
The statement says "no evidence could be brought forward that these men were about to commit an act of violence."
--
Might want to put that on front page, a few folks around here seem, uh, RIDICULOUSLY paranoid about brown people. Pointing out another false alarm might help return a few of them to rational thought.
Posted by: wah at August 24, 2006 02:30 PM (/Mtjv)
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August 22, 2006
Shared Scitless
Proof once again that liberals dispise few things more than a live voter's
right to choose:
Critics of Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman's independent run to keep his job attacked on two fronts Monday, with one group asking an elections official to throw him out of the Democratic Party and a former rival calling on state officials to keep his name off the November ballot.
Staffers for the senator from Connecticut, who lost the Aug. 8 Democratic primary to Greenwich businessman Ned Lamont, called both efforts dirty politics. The senator filed as an independent candidate a day after the loss, running under the new Connecticut for Lieberman Party.
A group whose members describe themselves as peace activists asked Sharon Ferrucci, Democratic registrar of voters in New Haven, to remove Lieberman from the party, arguing that he cannot be a Democrat while running under another party's banner.
[snip]
John Orman, a Democrat who gave up a challenge to Lieberman last year, argued in complaints filed with the state Monday that the senator should be kept off the Nov. 7 ballot.
Orman, a Fairfield University professor of political science, accused Lieberman of creating "a fake political party" and added: "He's doing anything he can to get his name on the ballot."
Joe Lieberman, who has a solid liberal voting record going back to when he was first elected to the Senate in 1989, who was nominated as the Vice Presidential candidate for the Democratic party in 2000, isn't "Democrat enough" for the Peace Democrats (otherwise known as Copperheads as they struggled against Abraham Lincoln in the 1860s, calling him Abraham Africanus as modern liberals call the current Republican President the Chimperor without any registration of the implicit racial overtones spanning three centuries, but I digress). If Lieberman's resume is the standard which we discard Democratic candidates, Republicans would run nearly unopposed.
Connecticut's liberals are playing a dangerous game, trying an overt attempt to throw out the seasoned incumbent frontrunner, forcefully limiting the choices of the voter, based upon the most inane of arguments and the most brazenly partisan of reasons.
I wrote just two weeks ago that I hoped Ned Lamont would win the primary, and when he won, I was thrilled that the Democratic Party would be committing Lamonticide. But I had no idea that the self-administered poison would so quickly take effect.
Connecticut Liberals are trying every trick in the book to keep Connecticut voters from have Joe Lieberman on the ballot.
It appears they aren't "Pro-Choice" after all.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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That is an amazingly fast self destruction sequence. If they could move that fast when they wanted to do something constructive they'd be unstoppable. That's not going to happen.
Posted by: hdw at August 22, 2006 03:28 PM (nA9AR)
2
I think they will have to force Joe to vote with Republicans a few times to really prove to themselves he's not a Democrat.
Posted by: lonetown at August 22, 2006 03:32 PM (6q//N)
3
Hey, he's got enough signatures to get on the ballot, only right to let him run. If he's started a new party, well that's EXACTLY what this country NEEDS. The other two parties have virtually married each other and are one with each other. Don't change the fact though, he's A CONNECTICUT YANKEE IN KING GEORGE'S COURT
Posted by: Mike Meyer at August 22, 2006 08:02 PM (/0FMj)
4
CY:
First, Lieberman lost the Democratic primary. It is, therefore, entirely reasonable that Democrats want him to stop running as a Democrat.
Second, the very idea that calling Bush the Chimperor is a racial slur is mindboggling in its foolishness. Next, I guess that you'll tell me that the proverbial "one hundred chimpanzees with typewriters" is a coded attack on Black writers? Curious George is a secret symbol of a colonized African population? That "The Chimps From C.H.U.M.P." was actually Klan propaganda?
Finally, since when do Confederates of any stripe have such touching concern for poor, downtrodden minorities? Only when they reckon they can make a point with it, is my guess...
Posted by: Doc Washboard at August 22, 2006 09:38 PM (tkLOh)
5
#1 - Joe is NOT running as a Democrat. He is running as an independent.
#2 - The Constitution places only three requirements for someone to be elected President a) natural born citizen; b) age 35 or older; c) been a resident for 14 years. To be elected, you must be able to get on a ballot.
There is no requirement in the Constitution to belong to a political party, so as far as I can see, he should have the opportunity to run for that office.
Of course, if the Dems succeed and kck him off the ballot, wouldn't it be delightful if he won on a write-in?
Finally, isn't ironic? Here they are spending all there efforts trying to kick Joe OFF the ballot, yet at the same time, they are spending quite a bit of effort forcing Tom Delay to stay ON the ballot.
Dems - more fun than a barrel of monkeys (can I say that?).
Posted by: SouthernRoots at August 22, 2006 10:25 PM (jHBWL)
6
So...when a primary is held and the loser ignores it, that's giving the voters a choice?
Your post makes absolutely no sense at all.
Posted by: ScaredyPat at August 23, 2006 01:30 PM (nM0Mp)
7
Lieberman is not a Democrat. He ran in the Democratic primary and lost. Now he's running as the sole member of the Connecticut for Lieberman party. He should rightly not be listed on the Connecticut voter ballot as a Democrat.
However, Orman is wrong to say that Lieberman shouldn't be on the ballot period. Joementum has every right to defend his seat as a member of another party.
It's nice to see so many conservatives lining up to defend a "liberal Democrat" like Joe Lieberman. It's almost as if they suspect something about Joe...
By the way, primary elections are
supposed to be partisan. That's the whole point of having them.
Posted by: Samurai Sam at August 23, 2006 02:07 PM (HrtLF)
8
"...modern liberals call the current Republican President the Chimperor without any registration of the implicit racial overtones spanning three centuries"
I'm fairly certain President Bush is a white man.
Posted by: david at August 23, 2006 02:21 PM (jmjB6)
9
So...when a primary is held and the loser ignores it, that's giving the voters a choice?
Your post makes absolutely no sense at all.
It makes no sense at all does it? well, pardon your ignorance, but Lieberman is not running as a Democrat, is he? I believe Ned Lamont is on the ballot as the Democrat candidate, and Lieberman is running as an independent.
Sharon Ferrucci essentially argues that Leiberman has to change his political views to run as an independent, a preposterous position without any legal merit at all. John Orman seeks to create new rules for what is and what isn't a political party as he finds it politically convenient.
The simple fact of the matter is that Joe Lieberman fits all of the legal criteria to run for the seat he presently holds, and the same people in the so-called "big tent" party who stabbed him in the back even though he votes with them 90% of the time are terrified, he's going to crush Ned Lamont, their single issue poster child of the "Peace Democrat" (Copperhead) Left.
And while I'm on the subject of the Copperhead Left, I see the deep thinkers at Sadly No! have rejoined us again, unable to understand how referring to a white Republican as an primate has dark roots in their political past.
Says Sadly:
No, he really said that. He really invoked some kind of bizarre personal racial association with chimpanzees to defend George W. Bush, wealthy white Yale and Harvard graduate, privileged from birth, son of a president and grandson of a senator. Chimpanzees. Good Lord. Like, theyÂ’re supposed to be naturally reminiscent of black people?
Not surprisingly, the reading comprehension of Sadly is sadly lacking. I said:
Joe Lieberman, who has a solid liberal voting record going back to when he was first elected to the Senate in 1989, who was nominated as the Vice Presidential candidate for the Democratic party in 2000, isn't "Democrat enough" for the Peace Democrats (otherwise known as Copperheads as they struggled against Abraham Lincoln in the 1860s, calling him Abraham Africanus as modern liberals call the current Republican President the Chimperor without any registration of the implicit racial overtones spanning three centuries, but I digress).
This is not too hard to understand for most folks; I simply was pointing out the parallels between the Peace Democrats of the 1860s and 2006. If you clicked the link provided in that section in the post itself, you would see this description of the 1860s Copperhead Agenda:
Copperheads nominally favored the Union but they strongly opposed the war, for which they blamed abolitionists, and they demanded immediate peace and resisted the draft laws. They wanted Lincoln and the Republicans ousted from power, seeing the president as a tyrant who was destroying American republican values with his despotic and arbitrary actions.
Some Copperheads tried to persuade Union soldiers to desert. They talked of helping Confederate prisoners of war seize their camps and escape. They sometimes met with Confederate agents and took their money. The Confederacy encouraged their activities whenever possible, and at one point Confederate agents controlled portions of the Democratic party in states such as Connecticut.
While some details have changed, it sounds strikingly familiar.
LetÂ’s check out the similarities:
Anti-war? Check.calls for an immediate peace (i.e. a surrender)? Check. Saw the current Republican President as a tyrant, acting as a despot? Check.Encourage soldiers to desert? Check. (And if you doubt that, look at those supporting
Ehren Watada, among others)Tried, or at least talked about helping enemies prisoners of war escape? Check. (Gitmo ring a bell?)Controlled portions of the Democratic Party in such states as Connecticut? Dead on.
And right beside that nice little paragraph of startlingly consistent behavior, is an 1864 pamphlet showing how some other things have remained the same. The pamphlet is an attack on a sitting Republican wartime president, comparing him to a primate or blacks, or both with the title Abraham Africanus I. To what end?
Again, we go back to the copperhead reference on wikipedia:
A typical editor was Edward G. Roddy, owner of the Uniontown, Pennsylvania, Genius of Liberty. He was an intensely partisan Democrat who saw blacks as an inferior race and Abraham Lincoln as a despot and dunce.
Tying blacks to monkeys as fellow "inferior" or subhuman species has been going on for hundreds of years in cultures around the world.
"Peace Democrats" have a historical tendency to find white Republican wartime Presidents from rural states to be dunces and tyrants, comparing them to monkeys, along with their many other shared traits, and we are to believe that the one thing they have changed is that monkey references are
now suddenly non-racial in the inferiority they imply?
As this iteration of the "Peace Democrats" features Jane "Blackface" Hamsher and a whole bevy of Democrats who turn a blind eye or even participate in race-based attacks against black conservatives, I'd find that highly unlikely, and only slightly better concealed.
I now fully expect the brain trust of Sadly No! to go on one of the typical liberal, "How dare someone with 'Confederate' in his blog name question us," whines, but sadly, whining is about all they excel at.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 23, 2006 03:04 PM (g5Nba)
10
Don't you all see? Calling Bush the Chimperor is exactly the same as referring to Lincoln as Abraham Africanus because, much like Lincoln, Bush has also been a staunch advocate of minority rights. When the lefties call him that, they're just trying to imply that he's pandering to the black vote. Isn't it obvious? It has nothing to do with his appearance, it's just racism, racism I say!
Or, alternatively, CY could just be talking out his ass. Yeah, on second thought, that's probably it.
Posted by: Larv at August 23, 2006 03:15 PM (6YCw9)
11
Well, congrats, CY, you're now ready for that five-mile run, what with all the intense stretching you just did.
Democrats compare Bush to a monkey; people compared Lincoln to a monkey in 1861; people who compared Lincoln to a monkey in 1861 were also racists; therefore Democrats are also racists . . . Are you sure you don't want to include a connection to Kevin Bacon in there?
Meanwhile, not so much as a peep about George Allen, you know,
actually calling a brown-skinned person a monkey.
Posted by: Doug at August 23, 2006 03:23 PM (jd34Q)
12
It makes no sense at all does it? well, pardon your ignorance, but Lieberman is not running as a Democrat, is he? I believe Ned Lamont is on the ballot as the Democrat candidate, and Lieberman is running as an independent.
Sharon Ferrucci essentially argues that Leiberman has to change his political views to run as an independent, a preposterous position without any legal merit at all.
Speaking of reading comprehension, Sharon Ferrucci isn't the one asking for Lieberman's party affiliation to be changed, she's the one deciding on the request. And to the best of my knowledge, the question is whether the ballot should list his party affiliation as D, or as I. Given that he lost the Democratic primary, this seems a no-brainer, otherwise there's little point in holding a primary. The AP article wasn't very clear on that point, so it's possible I'm wrong, but that's my understanding of the controversy.
Posted by: Larv at August 23, 2006 03:25 PM (6YCw9)
13
'Stabbed in the back'?
Get real, he lost a primary, the only thing funny about that is you people claiming that it's anti-choice to oppose his arrogance.
Posted by: ScaredyPat at August 23, 2006 03:40 PM (nM0Mp)
14
Would you like to tell me where my comment went? I wanted to think you weren't childish enough to start deleting comments, but I suppose I thought wrong.
Posted by: dgbellak at August 23, 2006 03:55 PM (YodPA)
15
Weren't they refering Lincoln to Scipio Africanus, the Roman General who defeated Hannibal at Carthage in North Africa?
As far as Georgie, I thought it was the EARS.
Posted by: Mike Meyer at August 23, 2006 05:25 PM (a1Ep5)
16
And right beside that nice little paragraph of startlingly consistent behavior, is an 1864 pamphlet showing how some other things have remained the same. The pamphlet is an attack on a sitting Republican wartime president, comparing him to a primate or blacks, or both with the title Abraham Africanus I.
CY posits an interesting theory, but visiting the venerable (in Internet time) website SmirkingChimp.com, one finds right at the top of the page, this notice:
106,870,251 page views since 27 December 2000
... which puts the origins of the "Bush as chimp" insult nearly a full year (at least) before Bush was a "wartime president".
Furthermore, while the wiki article points to pamphlets, tracts and other public statements by the Copperheads that are indeed full of overt racism (characterised by the 'Abraham Africanus' jibe), nowhere does CY plausibly show* that users of the 'chimperor' insult are similarly motivated by racism against blacks. If he feels up to the research, CY might start on SmirkingChimp.com itself to find solid evidence of the "racial overtones" he claims are present in such insults.
I suspect he won't try, and if he did, he wouldn't find any ... because all of this has been a long way of saying CY is completely full of shit.
*Jane Hamsher's error in allowing a silly attempt at irony to be posted on her blog, and vague, undocumented "race-based attacks against black conservatives" to which Democrats supposedly "turn a blind eye" are hardly plausible comparisons to the dedicated public racism of the Copperheads.
In fact, the most overt prejudices on display in American politics today are against Arabs and Muslims, and those disgusting displays are almost entirely the province of the Right.
Posted by: Demogenes Aristophanes at August 23, 2006 05:28 PM (TSh37)
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Not Even Phoning It In
Rusty and
Allah are all over this example of just how lazy Hezbollah has become in their efforts to provide fake news. The official
Hezbollah web site (with an appropriate Iranian URL) is showing a picture of a ship being ripped apart in an explosion. Hezbollah claims that the ship was an Israeli ship hit by a Hezbollah missile.
Here is the picture as shown on Hezbollah's site:
And Hezbollah did hit an Israel ship, the INS Hanit, a Saar 5 class missile boat, most likely with an Iranian-made C-701 "Kosar" type missile, on July 14, 2006.
This is the INS Hanit (photo credit: Sweetness & Light):
Note the damage (most noticeably the scorch marks) near the waterline directly under the Hanit's helicopter hanger, roughly three-quarters of the way to the stern. Note also that while the ship was reported to have serious internal damage and four Israeli sailors died in the attack, the ship is largely intact, the keel unbroken, and the ship otherwise, from this view, externally undamaged, where the ship in the Hezbollah photo to has literally been broken by the blast, the aft half of the ship behind the explosion several degrees out of alignment with the fore.
The two ships, as noticed by Andrew Bolt of the Australian Herald-Sun, are not nearly the same.
HMAS Torrens, a decommissioned Australian destroyer escort, was purposefully sunk in a torpedo test on June 14, 1999. If you look at first picture in the second row on this page, it becomes quite likely that Hezbollah stole the image from this wikipedia entry, cropped it, and then enlarged it to get their end result.
A ship built in the mid 1960s and decommissioned in 1971 is not going to be mistaken for a modern vessel launched in 1994.
Of course, seeing is believing.
The INS Hanit (picture mirrored 180 degrees from above for comparative purposes):
HMAS Torrens, just prior to the torpedo test:
Not even close. You would expect that a recently unemployed Adnan Hajj would have been make it at least this close:
These days, Hezbollah isn't even phoning it in.
Update: Blue Crab Boulevard uncovers more Hezbollah pictures.
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They chose that particular picture of the HMAS Torrens because that's the only one where the bow numbers aren't visible.
Posted by: Jim at August 22, 2006 07:26 PM (2cwjl)
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I thought I read somewhere the Israeli ship was hit at night?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 22, 2006 07:28 PM (c/xwT)
3
Indeed, the INS Hanit was attacked during the Sabbath Supper. The sailors who were supposed to be on duty were in the mess hall with everybody and ALL anti-missile, early warning and defense systems were shut down (because the ship's captain belived an attack was impossible).
Know the fool is facing the court martial he deserves.
Regards, F. Sgt. Alex
Posted by: First Sergeant Alex at August 22, 2006 07:39 PM (ri/u4)
4
Whoa there, Wilbur! You digitally manipulated the image. Anything, then, you may have to say about the picture is clearly a lie!
Why do you hate America? Why do you denigrate our troops?
Et cetera, ad infinitum.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at August 22, 2006 09:41 PM (tkLOh)
5
It's not such a big deal that they're lying, because that is sort of par for the course. What I find insulting is that they're lying so badly. If someone's going to lie to me, at least they should put forth some effort. Great post, btw.
Posted by: brando at August 23, 2006 04:39 PM (K+VjK)
6
Well, when your only strategic weapon is bullshit, you gotta pile it on...thick.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 23, 2006 05:24 PM (c/xwT)
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Iran Assaults Oil Rig, Captures Crew
I hope that the Left will condemn this obvious
war for oil:
A Romanian oil rig off the coast of Iran came under fire from an Iranian warship and was later occupied by Iranian troops, a company spokesman said.
The Iranians first fired into the air and then fired at the Orizont rig, said GSP spokesman Radu Petrescu. Half an hour later, troops from the ship boarded and occupied the rig and the company lost contact with the 26 crew members shortly afterward.
Petrescu said he had no information about any injuries or deaths. The Orizont rig has been moored near the Kish island in the Persian Gulf since October 2005, he told the Associated Press.
Eugen Chira, the political consul at the Romanian Embassy in Tehran confirmed the incident, but provided few details.
"Some forces opened fire. That an incident has happened is true. We have no details or the reason yet," he said.
If this is the first stage of an attempt to shut down the Persian Gulf, the Iranian's picked an odd place to start, as Kish is to the northwest of the Straits of Hormuz.
More as this develops.
Update: This is still something of a "non-story," that I'm not seeing widely reported, for whatever reason. I'm not sure if it is a lack of information, or a determination by the news Powers That Be that this is a minor story. More info comes from Bloomberg, indicating that this might be a business/teritorial dispute:
Iran attacked and seized control of a Romanian oil rig working in its Persian Gulf waters this morning one week after the Iranian government accused the European drilling company of ``hijacking'' another rig.
An Iranian naval vessel fired on the rig owned by Romania's Grup Servicii Petroliere (GSP) in the Salman field and took control of its radio room at about 7:00 a.m. local time, Lulu Tabanesku, Grup's representative in the United Arab Emirates said in a phone interview from Dubai today.
[snip]
Iran urged the United Arab Emirates last week to help it return another oil rig owned and operated by the Romanian company in the same waters close to the Straits of Hormuz, through which 20 percent of the world's daily oil supply moves on tankers.
Grup said it recovered its rig last week because of a contractual dispute with its Iranian client, Oriental Oil Kish.
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad suspended Oriental Oil's activities in 2005 on alleged corruption activity and ties to Halliburton Co. of the U.S. The U.A.E.-registered drilling company had signed a preliminary contract with Halliburton after winning an estimated $310 million contract to develop phases 9 and 10 of Iran's offshore South Pars gas reservoir.
Mircea Geoana, the head of the Social Democratic Party, the main opposition party in Romania, called on the government to ``undertake all diplomatic measures necessary'' to persuade the Iranians to release the rig.
He also called on President Traian Basescu in a news conference broadcast on Realitatea television to invite all political party heads to the presidential palace to "discuss what Romania's reaction will be to this provocation."
You just knew Halliburton would get dragged into this, didn't you? I suspect that it is just a matter of time before the accusations start to fly that this is a set-up by the Bush Administration to use as a justification to go to war.
Andy Sullivan, your newest conspiracy theory awaits...
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I'm curious about the double standard here. If the U.S. can forbid companies from working with other countries, why is it forbidden for other countries to do the same thing?
Also, it would seem that Halliburton dragged themselves into this mess. Finally, you may want to highlight some of Halliburton's
other deals with Iran, you know, if you into that whole intellectual honesty thing.
Posted by: Wah at August 22, 2006 11:04 AM (/Mtjv)
2
so in "Wah world," a warship
purposefully firing into a structure that they
know to be populated entirely by civilians is the
exact same thing as a diplomatic resolution to a multinational business/trade issue.
Funny, I always thought folks like yourself were
against wars for oil.
I guess that only applies when you can find an excuse to paint America as the bad guy, huh?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 22, 2006 12:28 PM (g5Nba)
3
Wah,
I'm curious about the double standard here. If the U.S. can forbid companies from working with other countries, why is it forbidden for other countries to do the same thing?
This is relevant to Iran's pirate action against Romanian GSP how exactly?
Also, it would seem that Halliburton dragged themselves into this mess.
But we're talking about GSP here not Halliburton; the only reason Halliburton is even mentioned is because both it and GSP share the same Iranian client Oriental Oil.
Finally, you may want to highlight some of Halliburton's other deals with Iran, you know, if you into that whole intellectual honesty thing.
So, because Halliburton is shoehorned into the original story by very tenuous means, it nonetheless becomes the sole story for you - and CY should aid and abet the MSM in its efforts at sidetracking by piling on random dirt about Halliburton.
Does any of this have some bearing on the story about Iran and GSP or were you just hoping for more dirt on Halliburton?
If any of these GSP riggers come to harm at the hands of the Iranian navy, will you just cover your ears and chant "Halliburton! Halliburton! Halliburton!"
Posted by: Scott at August 22, 2006 02:43 PM (f8958)
4
Con Yank
so in "Wah world," a warship purposefully firing into a structure that they know to be populated entirely by civilians is the exact same thing as a diplomatic resolution to a multinational business/trade issue.
How did you pull that out of what I said?
(which was...
If the U.S. can forbid companies from working with other countries, why is it forbidden for other countries to do the same thing?)
Besides, all Iran has to do is say they suspected terrorists might be involved and that clears them of any wrongdoing (if I am to understand your position on the 1,300 civilians killed in Lebanon correctly).
From what I can tell, Iran said Company A can no longer work here, as they are a front for VP Cheney's company (and were defrauding the gov't...heh..
it's almost like a pattern). Company A was doing work for Company B. Company B decided that assets used by Company A should be seized...and had already done so with another rig. Iran, said "No, I don't think so."
Hence, it's not much of a war for oil (which you rightly, congrats, have assumed that I think is wrong. Why do you think killing people to take their stuff is o.k.?).
I guess that only applies when you can find an excuse to paint America as the bad guy, huh?
Oh lordy, lordy, the strawmen are out in force today. Remember folks, anybody who disagrees with anyone on a right-wing blog HATES AMERICA.
They hate America so much, they even hate watching America make horrid mistakes.
--
Scott
This is relevant to Iran's pirate action against Romanian GSP how exactly?
Interesting, where did you get your pirate information from? What about the other rig? The point being that there are many questions remaining on this story. Especially regarding the "hijacking".
But of course, anyone asking questions about why Halliburton is being paid by Iran
obviously HATES AMERICA.
If any of these GSP riggers come to harm at the hands of the Iranian navy, will you just cover your ears and chant "Halliburton! Halliburton! Halliburton!"
Ohh looky, looky, another wonderful strawman, wandering away. If any of those GSP riggers come to harm, my hope would be that those who did so are brought to justice for it.
But glad to see you have absolutely no idea what I think. Guess I'll have to share more.
And may I ask you as well...why do you think it's o.k. to kill people and take their oil? (for the U.S. I mean, it's obivously wrong for Iran to do. Duh, even AMERICA HATERS can see that...)
Posted by: wah at August 22, 2006 07:01 PM (/Mtjv)
5
wah spelled backwards is haw - as in Lord Haw-Haw?
Lord Haw-Haw
Posted by: SouthernRoots at August 22, 2006 10:32 PM (jHBWL)
6
Wooho, Godwin.
I win.
Have a nice day.
Posted by: wah at August 23, 2006 12:21 PM (/Mtjv)
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August 21, 2006
BBC Risks Lebanese Boy for Photo Op with Unexploded Bomb
It is horrific that they would risk a child's life by forcing him so close to an unexploded but still very much "live" bomb.
It is even worse that they admit it (my bold) (h/t LGF):
When Um Ali Mihdi returned to her home in the southern Lebanese city of Bint Jbeil two days ago, she found a 1,000lb (450kg) Israeli bomb lying unexploded in her living room.
The shell is huge, bigger than the young boy pushed forward to stand reluctantly next to it while we get our cameras out and record the scene for posterity.
The bomb came through the roof of the single-storey house and half-embedded itself into the floor, just missing the TV.
"Reluctantly" is correct. The Lebanese boy, wearing a blue tank top and jeans that hang on his thin frame, is visably leaning away from the unexploded ordinance, hands in pockets. That someone pushed him forward to be in such a picture, and that the BCC was willing to capitalize on this obvious bit of propaganda staging, going so far to admit it openly, is reprehensible.
This is an admittedly staged photo by an ostensibly professional and once-respected news organization. Martin Asser and any other BBC staff complicit in this event should be fired, without question.
Much to my disgust, the suicide of photojournalism continues at an every more dizzying pace.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
Watch this video: He who lives by the bomb, dies by the bomb. (Click the video to start it.) : http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/articles/military_photos_2006810232251.asp
Posted by: Nostradamus at August 21, 2006 02:54 PM (TPJLE)
2
Here in the States such behavior would warrant charges of Risk of Injury to a Minor, Reckless Endangerment, etc. All felonies.
Posted by: Specter at August 21, 2006 03:24 PM (ybfXM)
3
The fin assembly appears to have detached (you can see a grove where it would clamp on, so what is that short pipe like looking thing sticking out the back?
I don't know of any Mk83 fin assemblies that would leave that there once they've gone away.
I don't think that's a real Mk83.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 21, 2006 03:51 PM (c/xwT)
4
Funny how you can suddenly muster up some outrage for the children of Lebanon when it's the dreaded Liberal Media putting their lives in danger, isn't it?
So, why is that missile even in their living room? Maybe there was a dead Hezbollah terrorist lying just out of shot.
Posted by: Flying Rodent at August 21, 2006 04:48 PM (mm7AG)
5
So, why is that missile even in their living room?
Perhaps it was dragged there.
Tob
Posted by: Toby928 at August 21, 2006 05:13 PM (ATbKm)
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Toby928:
Maybe they used a hammer to knock the fins off, for effect. I'm sure someone here can PROVE it's a movie prop over here 10,000 miles away. Aparently there are a lot of ordinance experts on the net. As we all know nobody REALLY got bombed, nobody REALLY got killed, no little kids REALLY blown away. It's ALL just camera tricks.
Posted by: Mike Meyer at August 21, 2006 06:00 PM (HH7vy)
7
I'm not an Air Force guy but the bomb looks like it's where it has fallen originally. And it looks unexploded.
I guess the US sould keep a better quality control on the bombs the manifacture.
Regards, F. Sgt. Alex
Posted by: Fisrt Sergeant Alex at August 21, 2006 06:34 PM (r4IwI)
8
rodent
maybe your wrath should be directed at those who started this war--Lebanon and Hezbollah. Or is that a little too straightforward for you?
Posted by: iconoclast at August 21, 2006 06:58 PM (Jpc2l)
9
I'm not an Air Force guy but the bomb looks like it's where it has fallen originally.
Really? I would have thought that even 500lb duds would have made sufficent shockwaves to clear the room completely, but I'm no expert either.
Tob
Posted by: Toby928 at August 21, 2006 08:58 PM (ATbKm)
10
Yeah, you're absolutely right, Tob, you're NO expert.
Posted by: Mike Meyer at August 21, 2006 11:03 PM (AqWK6)
11
I would have thought that even 500lb duds would have made sufficent shockwaves to clear the room completely
I've seen 180lb of *sand bags* make a pretty big crater going in from 1000' during prototype parachute tests where the chute in question didn't open...and this thing, claimed to be a "1000lb bomb" (which makes it a Mk83) is just sitting on some rubble?
Dubious. Very dubious.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 22, 2006 04:56 AM (c/xwT)
12
Real or staged (Looks real enough to me), the whole point is pushing the kid near it to take a picture. THAT, Mike and Rodent, is what is wrong with this picture.
Innocent people die in war, have since wars began, Lebonan doesn't like it, they can kick Hezbolla out since they started it. Isreal has every right to defend itself. Do you deny that?
Posted by: Retired Navy at August 22, 2006 05:21 AM (elhVA)
13
After checking out with a munitions expert from Combat Engeneering we reached a conclusion that it might be an unexploded 203mm artilary round (that would explain the form, the fact is has no fins and the little "pipe-like" looking thing - the connection to the ignition capsule).
But if it's indeed a 203mm artilary shell then the building is iether 10 stories tall and this is the last, or it was dragged ito position.
But nothing can be said for sure.
Regards, F. Sgt. Alex
Posted by: First Sergeant Alex at August 22, 2006 05:25 AM (MRCRR)
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Tob, you're NO expert.
Its the capitalized NO that give it undisputed truthiness.
Tob
Posted by: Toby928 at August 22, 2006 09:30 AM (ATbKm)
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Wow, I hadn't realized how ridiculous this 'staged photo' ruckus had become.
Too bad the bomb couldn't have exploded when the kid was at home, eh?
I mean, is that the undertext here? Are you folks really that far out of touch, that you give more grief to somebody who took a photo of a boy next to a bomb in his house rather
than to the people that shot it there?
I mean, wow, just wow.
Posted by: Wah at August 22, 2006 11:11 AM (/Mtjv)
16
Wah, you seem to be the one out of touch.
We are not saying too bad, we are saying that it was wrong to put the kid in danger to "Pose near the bomb" just for a stupid picture. Is that so hard to believe?
As far as who shot it there, read my earlier post, Hezbolla started it and in my opinion Isreal has every right to defend itself.
Putting the kid near the bomb for a publicity picture was dumb, dumb, dumb.
Posted by: Retired Navy at August 22, 2006 11:26 AM (JSetw)
17
It could be the kids livingroom, his TV.(Tob, note that I CAPITALIZED tv)
Retired Navy:
Yes, Israel has the right to defend itself, that doesn't mean the photos are lies, doesn't mean the wrong people don't get killed or the "right" ones do. Just means somebody IS gonna die, that's all. My opinion, only the luckest fucking moron in the world is going to drag a piece of unexploded ordinance anywhere and live.
Posted by: Mike Meyer at August 22, 2006 11:48 AM (qRu2m)
18
Retired Navy,
First I am very much in touch, but we'll get to that later.
Your statement...
We are not saying too bad, we are saying that it was wrong to put the kid in danger to "Pose near the bomb" just for a stupid picture.
And I'm saying that
shooting a bomb into the kids house is putting him in quite a bit more danger than documenting the fact that a bomb was put into his house.
Is that so hard to believe?
Yes, it's very hard to believe. Why do you think I put so many "wow"s in my post about these rationalizations?
As to your "they started it" defense. I think that's a crap excuse for killing 1,300 civilians. My take on 'who started it' goes back at least six months for this latest thing*, and quite frankly, it's a moot point here.
The point I'm trying to make is that you folks have so wrapped yourself up in rationalizations, that you are now saying it is
worse to take a picture of bomb in some kid's house than it is to
shoot said bomb into said house.
That's ridiculous.
*The way I saw it unfolding... Hamas was democratically elected, they continued their rhetoric and homemade rocket attacks on Israeli settlements. Right about the time they were going to fold into the PLO (which has already explicitly recognized Israel's right to exist), a Palestinian family was blown to pieces on a beach. Then the first Israeli soldier was kidnapped in response, then the tanks rolled back into Gaza in response, and THEN Hezbollah did their raid in response...then Israel carried out an already planned military excursion to destroy Lebanon's infrastructure and to try to terrorize the Lebanese people into submission. Sorry, but chasing away nearly 1,000,000 civilians from their homes by destroying entire neighborhoods can only be called "terrorism"...at least by sane people.
Also, and I hate to point this out, but doesn't Lebanon
also have the right to defend itself? Isn't that why Hezbollah has gotten so popular there lately? Isn't that why they
exist? i.e. as a response to the nearly 20 year Isreali occupation.
Posted by: wah at August 22, 2006 11:58 AM (/Mtjv)
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then the tanks rolled back into Gaza in response, and THEN Hezbollah did their raid in response
Gaza is not a part of Hezbollah territory so that's BS on stilts. Regardless, in war people die, good people, bad people, innocent and guilty. The answer is to avoid war and if unavoidable, for the right side to win as quickly as possible.
Its one thing to be a pacifist but why you feel the need to tongue Hezzies' hole is beyond my understanding.
Tob
Posted by: Toby928 at August 22, 2006 12:48 PM (ATbKm)
20
It would never cross your mind
whya 1,000-lb. bomb was sitting in
that particular living room, as opposed to one of millions of other dwellings and businesses in Lebanon untouched by Israeli bombs, would it?
No, it is much easier to pretend that the Israeli's were purposefully targeting Lebanese civilians. It is much easer than facing the well-documented physical evidence, including video footage of Hezbollah terrroists firing from residential areas, and then hiding their launchers in apartment building parking garages and the garages of individual homes.
You seem to have created a fantasy world for yourself where Hezbollah didn't fire more than 4,000 rockets at Israeli civilians, where Hezbollah didn't hide behind women and children, and where Isreal purposefully targeted little boys instead of terrorists. That simply is not reality, but what you would pick and choose from it.
The simple fact of the matter is that it is worse to knowingly force a child to pose with a large and armed explosive device than it is to drop that explosive device a suspected terrorist position. That is reality.
When your counterbattery radar, ground or airborne recon pinpoints a missile launch site, you kill it, as they are trying to kill your people. That is war.
None of us wishes harm on a child. But we live in the real world, where terrorists hide behind boys such as this, their sisters, and their mothers. You would excuse the terrorists for firing from behind a wall of noncombatant shields, and disallow Israel the right to defend itself. This is also an absurd position, enabling Hezbollah the right to fire on Israeli civilians without fear of reprisal. Of course, that might be perfectly acceptable in your world view.
I suspect that is the case.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 22, 2006 01:11 PM (g5Nba)
21
Tob
Its one thing to be a pacifist but why you feel the need to tongue Hezzies' hole
It's obvious you aren't worth replying to. So I won't.
Confederate Yankee
True to your nick, your perspective is both dichotomous and hypocritical.
...as opposed to one of millions of other dwellings and businesses in Lebanon untouched by Israeli bombs, would it?
So your argument here as to why the BBC is "reprehensible" and "horrific" is because they found one of the houses that
wasn't, but probably should have been destroyed by bombs, and took a photo of a kid next to the bomb that should have made this one of thousands of civilan structures destroyed as a response for the abduction of two soldiers? Also, you seem to think that no one should complain about civilian bombings in Lebanon because Israel didn't destroy the
entire country.
No, it is much easier to pretend that the Israeli's were purposefully targeting Lebanese civilians.
Who is pretending? There are reports coming out that such is EXACTLY what Israel did."The Israeli military seems to consider anyone left in the area a combatant who is fair game for attack," Human Rights Executive Director Kenneth Roth said in a statement.
(The Qana attack) is the latest product of an indiscriminate bombing campaign that the Israel Defence Forces have waged in Lebanon", the statement said.
"Indiscriminate bombing in Lebanon (is) a war crime", read the statement's headline.Sorry, that's not quite right. They are accused (after analysis of the data) of "indiscriminate bombing", instead of your strawman of "purposefully targeting civilians". Although, in reality, they equate to the same thing.
Officer A: There's the target, but, umm, there are civilians there.
Officer B: Fire!
.. is pretty close to ...
Officer A: There's the target.
Officer B: Fire!
Now, of course all that changes depending on who's shooting, which is why I'm calling you a hypocrite.You seem to have created a fantasy world for yourself where Hezbollah didn't fire more than 4,000 rockets at Israeli civilians, where Hezbollah didn't hide behind women and children, and where Isreal purposefully targeted little boys instead of terrorists. I see, so...despite killing more Israeli military personnel than civilians, Hezbollah was "firing rockets at Israeli civilians". And despite killing *VASTLY* more civilians than Hezbollah did, Israel still manged to kill *VASTLY* more civilians, AS A RATIO.
Your logic circuits are wired badly. When one looks at the data, it appears that (if part of the "good fight" in a war is to focus fire on military, rather than civilian infrastructure and personnel) Hezbollah fought a much more morally sound compaign. Which is horrific, as what has been designated a terrorist organization was
fighting a cleaner war than an ally.
To reiterate:
Hezbollah kill ratio of civilans to military : 44 / 118 (over 2 to 1)
Israel kill ratio of civilians to military : ~1200 / ~200 (over 1 to 6..in the wrong direction).
Now, as to your simple fact.
The simple fact of the matter is that it is worse to knowingly force a child to pose with a large and armed explosive device than it is to drop that explosive device [on] a suspected terrorist position. That is reality.
You see that bolded part? That's the root of your hypocrisy. You accept the general claim that all of Lebanon is a "suspected terrorist position". Since it was all of Lebanon that got targeted, and Israel only targets terrorists, you obviously believe that all of Lebanon is fair game. And fair in a WAR game, means, well, as you mentioned all bets are off (so to speak).
Then you go off into even more ridiculous territory, where it's perfectly fine for Israel to fire on civilans, err terrorist suspects, in self-defense and then you look the other way when Israel carries out what would be considered terrorist acts had they been done by any other country, like...say, Iran. (try this...read that
Human Rights Watch report, replace every mention of "Israel" with "Iran" and then tell me they aren't acting like terrorists. And
don't miss this one, as well, just so you realize they are calling bullshit on ALL the bullshit.)
Also, you claim that Israel has a divine right to defend itself by bombing civilians areas, but neither Lebanon, nor the people who live there, has a similar divine right.
That's why you are a hypocrite.
Sorry to take so many words to explain the reasoning of your dichotomous view of the world. I know it will fall on deaf ears, but it's still worth a try every now and again.
Finally, your "suicide" links points out that it is things like saying that taking a picture of a kid next to a bomb is
worse than dropping said bomb on said kid is what is "murdering" photojournalism. Did you even read the article?
Posted by: wah at August 22, 2006 03:57 PM (/Mtjv)
22
Its one thing to be a pacifist but why you feel the need to tongue Hezzies' hole
It's obvious you aren't worth replying to. So I won't.
Can't is more the truth. Look here, you have a conflict between two groups, one, a democracy with full civil rights for its citizens of both genders, religions, sexual orientations, and nation of origin, a nation whose military wears uniforms, carries their weapons openly, and has a clear chain of command. vs A revanchist militia, shielding itself behind civilians while, as a policy, lauching unguided missles into civilian areas. You choose to side with the later, with the limp argument that because Hezbollah lacks the accuracy and the throw weight to kill thousands of jewish civilians this should rebound to their credit. Do you actually have any doubt, that if Hezbollah had missles with 100 times the explosive power they wouldn't be randomly shooting those? Ass, fool, thrice curse ninny. Do you really believe that there would even be a conflict, and hence civilian suffering, in Lebanon if Hezbollah left Israel alone. Israel left southern Lebanon because the cost of occupation was too high for them. I doubt they have any cravings to return.
As I said above, war is a hard hard thing and conflict breed hard and callous men, even in the IDF but there is simply no comparison between these parties as to their intent, aims, and official policies. For you to side with the punkass agressors here shows a level of masochism that would doom the West if it were commonplace.
You're not a humanitarian or anti-war, you're just on the other side.
Tob
Posted by: Toby928 at August 22, 2006 05:26 PM (ATbKm)
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Tob928
Good to see your folks let you back on the computer. Rest assured, once you get past puberty, you will
actually be able to express an opinion on international politics without spitting. It doesn't mean you
will, but you'll have the ability if you chose to use it.
The only coherent thought you have posted is near the end there. I'll address that.
Israel left southern Lebanon because the cost of occupation was too high for them.
They also took a few thousand prisoners during that 18-year occupation you kinda glossed over. Then there were the massacres.
Hence, there is an obvious reason (those thousands of prisoners taken during the occupation) for the resistance group that made the cost of occupation "too high" to continue it's self-defense attacks (yea, I'm using the...seemingly...popular rationale here that any offensive action is actually pre-emptive self-defense).
I doubt they have any cravings to return.
Obviously. Why else would they reduce the place to rubble?
And yes, I've little doubt that if Lebanon had been allowed to grow its democracy, and was given $5,000,000,000 worth of arms each year by some outside power, they would have done to Israel
exactly what was done to them. And we'd be condemning them for
their disproportionate response against a budding one-state democracy that let
all the people who lived there vote, instead of huddling them onto reservations.
BTW, color-blindness is a disease, but there is some therapy. Given time and lots of patience and hard work, someday, maybe far in the future, but someday, you'll be able to see there are other colors than black and white.
Good luck with the puberty stuff, I know it's rough.
Posted by: wah at August 22, 2006 06:18 PM (/Mtjv)
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Nothing, zip, nada, vapor. I don't know how to categorize your fact free response. Rather than telling me why the Lebanese might wish to harm Jews, I was hoping that you would make a stab at telling me why you feel compelled to take the side of what is, for all intents and purposes, a mercenary army in the hire of Syria and Iran. I suspect its your judenhass but a little confirmation would be good.
As I'm probably old enough to be your grandfather, I should cut you some slack puppy, but I find that I'm less tolerant as I age. I have nothing but contempt for you and your kind. Able to bear the trappings of a civilized man but underneath, pure barbarian.
Tob
Posted by: Toby928 at August 22, 2006 06:31 PM (ATbKm)
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disproportionate response
Proportionate responses just encourage more of the same ad nauseam. "Disproportionate responses", wanton violence totally off the scale, settles disputes with finality (eg. Hiroshima/Nagasaki).
You don't see the Japanese getting uppity anymore and raping Nanking or anything unpleasant like that anymore do you?
Q.E.D. Disproportionate response is a good thing.
Proportionate response is a tool for mushbrained fools looking to engage in the next 100 years war.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 22, 2006 07:37 PM (c/xwT)
26
Can anyone logically explain how a "bomb" can be dropped from a plane and end up laying on top of the floor? Even if it were a dud, it would have penetrated the floor and buried itself deeply underground. Besides, it appears to NOT be an aircraft delivered bomb...at least one I've ever seen. *5 year Air Force Vet
Posted by: Doug Rodrigues at August 22, 2006 11:30 PM (7qRZk)
27
Ole Tob
Rather than telling me why the Lebanese might wish to harm Jews [like those thousands of prisoners taken during an occupation and those, ya know,
slaughters], I was hoping that you would make a stab at telling me why you feel compelled to take the side of what is, for all intents and purposes, a mercenary army in the hire of Syria and Iran.
I'm curious, what are all of your intents and purposes? Because from that perspective (the mercenary army one) guess who's mercenary army Israel is? And you know whose perspective that is?
You see this huge global affair, all tied to together, some vast conspiracy by the brown people to destroy the slightly less brown people.
I see people fighting for their lives. On both sides. What I see that you and the terrorists whose perspective you have adopted can't see is an end to this mess. A new generation that is ready to be one. To get along, and build a world together. In peace.
You can't see that because you probably won't live to see it. Sorry about that. But it's there. It's a long way off, now, at least another generation...thanks to the disastrous policies of those who are actually CALLING for a 100 year war. Yep, them damn neocons. The American Century of War (peace).
But we'll get over that blight, soon enough.
I'm sorry that all you see is global conspiracies, and off-white people gathering on your lawn.
If you get out of this echo chamber, and explore the interwebs a bit, talk to the kids, see what they see.
See what they don't see.
See how well we get along, across borders, cultures, religions, etc. You might be surprised to realize that we are all one people on this little rock, and you ... [string of expletives deleted]..assholes keep mongering for more war.
Keep excusing the uncexcusable, keep calling for the unimaginable (Purple Avenger, save some time, just post "glass parking lot" next time and I'll understand your [genocidal] philosophy precisely and with much less typing on your part), and keep glorying death.
You call me a barbarain. You old fool. Wake up.
The world has moved on.
/...and go judenhass yourself.
Posted by: wah at August 22, 2006 11:40 PM (IfLXD)
28
it appears to NOT be an aircraft delivered bomb...at least one I've ever seen.
it's a 203mm artillery shell from what I understand*. They showed 'em firing a lot on CNN, but never really showed what it looks like when they land...at least not in real time.
/*could be wrong...about ths.
Posted by: wah at August 22, 2006 11:42 PM (IfLXD)
29
Wah, I have been across borders. I have talked to the people in other countries around the globe. I have been there and see a lot of good people. I also, however, see a lot of 'bad' people. There truely are those out there that just don't like the 'west' or our ideas and oppose them at every turn, the worst being terrorism. It won't change in a generation because they keep recruiting as much as they can.
You may see it on the internet but on the planet, it just isn't there like you believe. How do you change a violent mindset when the people you are trying to get to understand democracy just don't believe you, don't want it (want to keep control), and because of beliefs/religion, believe you should either be subjucated or dead?
Posted by: Retired Navy at August 23, 2006 05:35 AM (y67bA)
30
Another vacuous and impotent post, serving only to hightlight your prefidious toadying to barbarism, Wah. Now you express a faux
pox on both your houses moral preening that would have earned you a mere Feh! from me before but its too late. You've chosen your swamp to stand in, and any grasping for the high ground shows that you lack even the fortitude of your heinous allies.
I was born in the aftermath of one existential civilization war, lived to see another through to victory, and now find my nation involved in a third. Each time the West has had to suffer with your kind, twisted creatures so filled with loathing for themselves and their own culture that they would seek common cause with the vilest of thugs. An enemy without pity or conscience. Killers who kill grandmothers and their grandchildren with blind rocket fire, as a policy, and call it a victory. Shield themselves with noncombatants and when the innocent are inevitably killed, parade their sad corpses as a PR coup. Groups truly worth of the contempt of civilized men, deserving of the appellation
Hosti Humani Generis and destined for a dogs's death.
Yankee runs a classy joint here and decorum prevents me from using the appropriate language to express my disgust with you and your kind of "progressive" bootlicker and your dreams of a judenfrei world. However, AOSHQ
is auditioning for a new resident troll and this Friday, we will be commemorating The
Wreck of the Hesperus. You can be the star attraction.
I appologies to the Yankee for my screed and have had my say. I can only plead that I lack the patience to suffer pretentious fools and lackeys anymore.
Tob
Posted by: Toby928 at August 23, 2006 09:04 AM (ATbKm)
31
Retired Navy
There truely are those out there that just don't like the 'west' or our ideas and oppose them at every turn, the worst being terrorism. It won't change in a generation because they keep recruiting as much as they can.
And there truly are people here calling for genocidal acts of mass destruction. And the teorrorists have been given a HUGE BOON in recruiting because we are following the neocon plan for 100 years of war and remaking the ME in our image. We have done exactly what OBL said we would do. As such, we've given their framing MASS amounts of evidence to support it.
The reaction there is much the same as that of people here worried about the oxymoronic phrase "islamo-fascism". People see an outside threat, and support those they think are best equipped to fight it. This is why radical Islam doesn't fear elections, it wins them. And why radical militarism won the last major election here.
How do you change a violent mindset when the people you are trying to get to understand democracy just don't believe you, don't want it (want to keep control), and because of beliefs/religion, believe you should either be subjucated or dead?
It's not "democracy" we want to export. That, they understand just fine. What we really want to export is "liberalism" (which you folks hate, I know...kinda ironic, eh?). And by "liberalism" I mean in the classic sense of equal rights for women and minorities. The rule of law, balance of power, peaceful transition of power, etc. All the things that people who hate liberals hate.
Only the fundies (much like the ones here) want to convert or kill everyone. The strategy should have been to avoid ultra-violent means, as that only radicalizes a people and causes they to gravitate towards to same violent types ind defense. The strategy should have been to build, not destroy.
We had a great opportunity to do this in Afghanistan. To rebuild a country that was destroyed fighting commies. Instead, the energy interests realized we now could whip up the fear to support an occupation of Iraq...and we've all seen how wonderful that tangent has worked out.
The general strategy should have been to marginalize the radicals, not lionize them and make their power seem great. To build real, and physical, and lasting solutions to the problems we all face (transportation, education, health care), rather than trying to Shock and Awe a population into submission.
But the neocon strategy was used, and now we've got another generation of people, sitting at home, staring at Western bombs in their living rooms....wondering...who is going to protect me from those savages...
Tob
You're drooling again. Wipe that up.
Posted by: wah at August 23, 2006 01:51 PM (/Mtjv)
32
You're drooling again. Wipe that up.
In a battle of wits, you are truly unarmed.
Tob
Posted by: Toby928 at August 23, 2006 03:16 PM (ATbKm)
33
They may understand Democracy just fine, but Liberalism is not just understood by them, but is being used as a weapon against us. They play the news, liberal politics, and bleeding heart strategy every chance they get.
Afganistan is still being rebuilt, it doesn't happen over night.
The 'Neocon' Stragegy may need work, but what ideas came from the lib side? Other than patting them on the head and giving them everything they want?
I don't relish the idea of killing anyone but if it comes down to our (U.S.) way of life and our very lives itself, or them, I choose us.
Iraq has been unstable since, ever. We didn't make it that way. There have been overthrown dictators there since the turn of the century. Saddam was just the last one (and hopefully the last) in a long line.
Wars between Democratic nations don't really happen. Look at history and find one that happened between two Democratic nations. When they become Democratic over there it will be a boon to the world.
Posted by: Retired Navy at August 24, 2006 05:51 AM (lNB+R)
34
What Wah is trying to say is, that WE as the west need to understand the loving, tolerant, peacful ways of Islam and to open our arms and except it as the one true religion. To be led like sheep and be assimilated into that most wonderous of religions and live in paradise. Where you have no rights or freedoms, could almost certainly be killed for having pemarital sex, sliting you own son or daughters throats because they wanted to marry someone of their own choosing. Be beaten by the religious police for not praying when your are called to prayer or they saw your ankle underneath your burka. Woman have absolutly no rights and are forbidden to be educated. BTW it is a death sentence to own a Christian Bible. So let me tell you something you ignominious POS I have no tolerance left in me for your version of nirvana. I have no desire to lay down with the wolves. Their goal is total world domination not to just be excepted and left alone, but to rule the planet under one religion. No freedom of choice, No elected officials, No Freedom of speech BTW you seem to enjoy. How ignorant are you of the world and its history? We cannot let them have it their way. History is repeating itself. This is slow global domination, no different than Hitler or Stalin, Isreal no matter how you look at it through your severe dementia is fighting for its existence. Its a tiny country surrounded by wolves. Those same wolves that let their innocents be killed by placing them in harms way. Then praise a lunatic like Nassrallah, as a hero. You know why? Because somebody makes damn sure they say the right thing or else. Fear like it or not gets results. Remember "Oil for Food" that did alot of good, Sadaam bought weapons. YOU need to understand the ME culture not I. I understand it, you would much rather have them at your feet than your throat. Your bloviating and spinning the facts will not hold up in the court of world opinion. Iraq will be a democratic country someday, like Retired Navy stated your are not going to change a mindset overnight. If Iran and Syria would stop supporting the insurgency and propping up the likes of Al Sadr and Nassrallah this would be over.
Posted by: Faithful Patriot at August 24, 2006 07:03 AM (elhVA)
35
wah -
"Only the fundies (much like the ones here) want to convert or kill everyone"
Did I miss something or is this not the expressed goal of Hezbollah when it comes to the Jews or us for that matter
Your thoughts are that they Israel should try
"To build real, and physical, and lasting solutions to the problems we all face (transportation, education, health care)"
Would Hezbollah accept a single cent towards this goal from Israel? How can Israel be expected to build educational facilities in a country that allows terrorists to lob rockets into their country.
Let me guess, if we just apologies to al-Qaeda and build them some roads and schools they will like us again and not want to convert the entire world to Islam, and destroy al infidels as is dictated to them by their interpretation of the Koran?
Posted by: Web at August 24, 2006 10:11 AM (3como)
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Forcing God's Hand
This just in from
CNN:
Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said Monday that Tehran will continue to pursue nuclear technology, state television reported.
Khamenei's declaration came on the eve of Iran's self-imposed August 22 deadline to respond to a Western incentives package for it to roll back its nuclear program. The United Nations has given Tehran until the end of August to suspend uranium enrichment.
The supreme leader's remarks also came the day after Iran's armed forces tested surface-to-surface missiles Sunday in the second stage of war games near its border with Iraq. (Full story)
"The Islamic Republic of Iran has made its own decision and in the nuclear case, God willing, with patience and power, will continue its path," Khamenei was quoted as saying by the broadcast.
He accused the United States of pressuring Iran despite Tehran's assertions that it was not seeking to develop nuclear weapons, as the United States and several of its allies have contended.
"Arrogant powers and the U.S. are putting their utmost pressure on Iran while knowing Iran is not pursuing nuclear weapons," he said.
Iran on Sunday said it will offer a "multifaceted response" to the incentives proposal.
For those who have been following these rumors for the past few weeks, the promise of a "multifaceted response" is an ominous, if uncertain, portent:
This year, Aug. 22 corresponds, in the Islamic calendar, to the 27th day of the month of Rajab of the year 1427. This, by tradition, is the night when many Muslims commemorate the night flight of the prophet Muhammad on the winged horse Buraq, first to "the farthest mosque," usually identified with Jerusalem, and then to heaven and back (c.f., Koran XVII.1). This might well be deemed an appropriate date for the apocalyptic ending of Israel and if necessary of the world. It is far from certain that Mr. Ahmadinejad plans any such cataclysmic events precisely for Aug. 22. But it would be wise to bear the possibility in mind.
Iranian President Ahmadinejad and the Hojjatieh movement of the ruling mullahcracy in Iran are so radical that they were banned in 1983 by Ayatollah Khomeini, and it is this sect of Shiite Islam that seek to force the return of the 12th Shiite Imam, Muhammad ibn Hasan. Followers of the three major world religions all believe that the world will one day face an End Times scenario, but only this sect feeling that forcing the hand of God is within their grasp:
...rooted in the Shiite ideology of martyrdom and violence, the Hojjatieh sect adds messianic and apocalyptic elements to an already volatile theology. They believe that chaos and bloodshed must precede the return of the 12th Imam, called the Mahdi. But unlike the biblical apocalypse, where the return of Jesus is preceded by waves of divinely decreed natural disasters, the summoning of the Mahdi through chaos and violence is wholly in the realm of human action. The Hojjatieh faith puts inordinate stress on the human ability to direct divinely appointed events. By creating the apocalyptic chaos, the Hojjatiehs believe it is entirely in the power of believers to affect the Mahdi's reappearance, the institution of Islamic government worldwide, and the destruction of all competing faiths.
Because of the belief of the Hojjatieh that they can, with human hands, bring about Apocalypse, the significance of tomorrow's date sets up in their eyes a divine opportunity that the rest of the world would be wise to treat with all due seriousness.
Considering the magnitude of the threat, I would be quite unamazed if the long-range F-15I "Ra'am" and F-16I "Soufa" and other aircraft of the Israeli Air Force were not now sitting in their hangers fully-fueled under heavy guard, wings heavy with the weight of the most terrible weapons known to man, as Dolphin-class submarines and their American counterparts patrol the Persian Gulf and Mediterranean with their own cataclysmic payloads.
It is fully consistent with the Hojjatieh sect's philosophy to try to "wipe Israel off the map" in hopes of triggering the expected result, and fully within Israel's sovereign rights to respond with all due mortal force to a nation seeking its annihilation. The Hojjatieh seek an end to their world to bring forth Muhammad ibn Hasan, and that they may be able to burn Israel to the ground in the process of bringing forth their Hidden Imam only makes the attraction of Apocalypse stronger.
Do the Hojjatieh seek to end the world on their terms? If is is indeed their plan, I pray that they now reconsider.
The three major religions that arose in the Middle East and propagated around this world all believe in a Creator, One that created All. If these major world religions are correct, then God alone is all powerful, and only God alone can chose the time and place of the beginning and the end, the Alpha and the Omega. By attempting to force God's hand, to attempt to control the End Times, the Hojjatieh are creating a great sin on a scale never before imagined, spanning across all nations, all believers, and faiths. The Hojjatieh seem primed to seek to create the greatest blasphemy of all.
As a Christian believer in a just and powerful God, I feel certain that while millions if not tens of millions could die if the Ahmadinejad and the other Hojjatieh have their way, that their deaths and the deaths of their unsuspecting victims (growing more unsuspecting every day) will only bring an end to lives, not a beginning of paradise.
Man cannot force or control the hand of God. A Pharaoh once tried, and the firstborn of all of Egypt died as a result. If Ahmadinejad's attempt to play God is realized, then the firstborn of the Middle East will only be a fraction of the overall toll.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
>Man cannot force or control the hand of God.
So what does praying for stuff do?
Posted by: salvage at August 21, 2006 10:11 AM (xWitf)
2
It doesn't force the hand of God. A prayer is a request, or a plea for help and guidance.
Posted by: Retired Navy at August 21, 2006 10:46 AM (elhVA)
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Nothing new here...move along.
Khamenei and the Iranian's are definately on-a-roll,
Supreme Leader Calls for Muslim Unity against US and while they feel they've the momentum, they almost certainly won't allow it let to lessen - not an iota.
Tomorrow? Eh...a dud. Beyond that? Hazarding a guess, if Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon...who all knows where else...can be made worse, they'll go-up in flames and the Iranian's will blame everything on the Great Satan's presence.
Case-in-point - one they've been bombing into the Iraqi's.
For our part, we'd better not sit back in our saddle and underestimate their intent; when these SOB's threaten, they'll make good on that threat - something we somehow repeatedly forget.
Posted by: Eg at August 21, 2006 11:23 AM (mw+rq)
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Wow, finally someone someone has the courageous humility remind us scheming humans of the big picture. Biblically, the Hebrew scriptures have long said "..I am God and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure.'" To Islam which says they believe in the Torah but that they were corrupted, the verse I quoted is from Isaiah 46:9-10, which was found within a complete Isaiah Dead Sea Scroll, nearly identical to the more recent. Great point "Retired Navy" about prayer, seems unfathomable the relationship between sovereign control of a Creator outside a created time dimension and yet the many commands to pray, somehow human prayer must be enetered into His way of fulfilling prophecy--Daniel chapter 9, praying from Jewish exile, illustrates this clearly if you're interested. Jeremiah also was told "Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you." I know secular people don't like to hear about religious themes, but some of us truly believe prayer is part of the battle, something humans can do.
Posted by: ER at August 21, 2006 11:45 AM (CBdqs)
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As scary and unbalanced as the mullahcracy are, I found this statement very interesting (provided it was translated accurately):
"Arrogant powers and the U.S. are putting their utmost pressure on Iran while knowing Iran is not pursuing nuclear weapons," he said.
Why? Simply because the US was not included in the "arrogant powers". Now maybe we were excluded from this group because we are considered "worse than arrogant." Quite probably. But it also could be that Khamenei is trying to take a slightly different stance toward us than in the past. Intriguing possibility.
Nevertheless - should they be crazy enough to try to take out Israel or other allies, they would bring "glass parking lot" retribution upon themselves. Unfortunately - as we know from news events leaking out of Iran - there are an awful lot of people there who do not agree with the government. And they would suffer as well.
Posted by: Specter at August 21, 2006 11:53 AM (ybfXM)
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Forcing the Hand of God? One would have the belief that God is on your side and would need your help in his decision process. And the other is the belief that what ever you do is ok with the Almighty, which includes, but not limited to the mass killing of innocent people. It is really scary to think that a country, any country would welcome the end of all things. This is totally different from the cold war. Guaranteed Mutual Destruction, when you were afraid of total destruction and these nutjob's look forward to it.
Posted by: Faithful Patriot at August 21, 2006 12:17 PM (elhVA)
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>A prayer is a request or a plea for help and guidance.
Okay, so can a prayer change your god's mind?
Posted by: salvage at August 21, 2006 01:29 PM (xWitf)
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So it's a communication... 'kay so the prayerer doesn't expect any reaction one way or the other? So if you pray to your god (or God, whatever you want to call it) you're not asking it to do anything?
Posted by: salvage at August 21, 2006 03:29 PM (jQnuN)
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Obtuse....everybody understand what I'm sayin?
Posted by: Specter at August 21, 2006 03:47 PM (ybfXM)
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I'm not being obtuse, can you or can you not change your god (or God)'s mind about something?
It's a simple question that no one seems to want to answer.
Posted by: salvage at August 21, 2006 05:13 PM (jQnuN)
11
The pocket Catholic dictionary defines prayer as: The voluntary response to the awareness of God's presence. This response may be an acknowledgment of God's greatness and of a person's total dependence on him (adoration), or gratitude for his benefits to oneself and others (thanksgiving), or sorrow for sins committed and begging for mercy (expiation), or asking for graces needed (petition), or affection for God, who is all good (love).
salvage is asking about petition: asking for graces needed. Asking petition of God is not to change His mind. God wishes to bless his children. Matthew 7 : 7 - 11 indicates to me that blessings are available to those who ask. One of God's many roles is teacher. A truly humble prayer given freely and in deference to God will teach the petitioner a great deal. God will decide how to answer or not answer your prayer.
Posted by: Bob at August 21, 2006 06:02 PM (9eDDd)
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Can a prayer change God's mind?
Consider this: we pray, not because we need to convince God of our wants or needs (He knows them already), but because he wants us to ask. Why? To help us learn and grow and exhibit our faith in Him, not to mention develop humility. Prayer is God's gift to us, not ours to him.
In the same vein, can we turn God's mind toward ours? No, the purpose of prayer is to turn ours to God's. A wise man once said, if God is the creator of all things, the only thing that is truly ours to give is our will. But he won't take it, we must ofter it willingly. I believe it was Abraham Lincoln who said, it is not so important to know if God is on our side, as it is to know if we are on His!
Food for thought.
Posted by: Todd at August 21, 2006 06:11 PM (QKtQX)
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Hi and good night (evening, morining, afternoon or whatever you got there) to everyone.
To CY:
Do you expect any less of us (IDF) from what you've written (of course after the Lebanon disaster you might expect our command to prepare an airborne infantry raid agaist flying ballistic missiles)?
We are as ready as we can be, and more. Not only on the offense but on the defense too (since Mutual Assured Distruction is not a deterrent in this case, Weapons of Doom wouldn't scare the Iranians from launching their attack).
As for the defense - F16I "Sufa" (storm) could be used to take out incoming bombers, F15I "Ra'am" (thunder) carrying vacum bombs or GBU's would be used to preemptively take out missle launchers and missile silos. Also, one mustn't forget the "Hetz" (arrow) MK3, the best anti-balistic missile that exists today. As far as my knowlage goes, several batteries of those have been secretly and silently deployed in IAF bases throughout Israel.
And one more defensive/offensive thing - "The Jericho Sanction". It's a part of Israel's nuclear doctrine. It goes something like this: should Israel be threatened by nuclear weapons, Israel holds to herself the right to a PREEMPTIVE nuclear strike against the would-be enemy in order to eliminate their nuclear potential. Of course this will be used as a last resort, but as things go we might come even to that.
Also I wouldn't rule out a ground commando raid against launching sites under preparation for launch (though I do belive our command lacks the balls to order such a thing and I'd be quite surprised if my team [or any other SF team for that metter] will be called to prepare for such action any time soon).
But I guess we'l soon find out what will happen.
To salvage:
As far as I've been schooled in religion, both in Christianity and Jewdaism God is outside the golbal-mortal scheme of things. He is allmighty, all knowing, He stands before all time and after all time - meaning he's out of the loop of time we all liv in. He watches the world like an open book - only He can see it from the begining to the end at once. So in such a case He already knows what you asked for in your prayer (as much as He knows the fate of every single atom in your being from the beginning to the end) and decided whether to grant it to you or not even before the world was created (or after the world was destroyed) - since time is of no object to Him. SO if you go by this belief - one cannot tip God's hand by a prayer or any other action since God, being an all-knowing entity set out of time, has already decided on the metter of that individual's fate and should that individual be granted devine aid or not.
Regards F. Sgt. Alex
Posted by: Fisrt Sergeant Alex at August 21, 2006 06:17 PM (r4IwI)
Posted by: Mike Meyer at August 21, 2006 11:18 PM (AqWK6)
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F. Sgt. Alex
Okay so everything has been predetermined so what's the point? Since God knows the alpha and omega of the everything our choices are meaningless because they are not our choices are they? TheyÂ’re a script written before we were born that we cannot (by your ideas) deviate from.
Seems rather meaningless to me, for a god to create a universe full of stuff that has already happened as far as heÂ’s concerned.
But thanks for the answer.
Posted by: salvage at August 22, 2006 07:11 AM (xWitf)
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salvage,
For what it is worth, at the crux of all of this is that humanity (and many other works) seem to be instilled with the ability and will to make choices. God or whatever label you personally affix to that which is omnipotent and responsible for all is assumed to know your tendencies much as a parent can watch the wheels going around in their kids head as they work towards a conclusion and subsequent action.
When you make a choice that runs against the grain of the desired grand schema, the same displeasure you would feel as your kid beat his sister and set the house on fire is assumed to be present on a massive scale. The kids are subsequently dealt with, hopefully lessons are learned but you still have a bruised sister standing amongst burnt up Barbies and a lingering displeasure remains in memories for some time to come.
So while outcomes are likely known by God, the decisions that bring them about appear to be largely ours so that we can hopefully learn that which is necessary to arrive at the proper conclusions pleasing to God.
I have no doubt that this explanation makes a thorough hash of many faiths but perhaps the above may help answer some of your questions.
I have to ask this; are you on paTroll using the time honored technique recognized by parents from all points - "But why?...."
And if so Why?
Posted by: Brian at August 22, 2006 08:25 AM (6CDOn)
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But back to your first question salvage, what is prayer for?
Go ask your parent.
See?
Posted by: Brian at August 22, 2006 08:29 AM (6CDOn)
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While others have made some excellent points, I'd like to offer up my own answer to salvage. While I may be wrong in what I infer from his comments, he seems to confuse prayer with begging or demanding things from God.
He asks:
So what does praying for stuff do?
Okay, so can a prayer change your god's mind?
So it's a communication... 'kay so the prayerer doesn't expect any reaction one way or the other? So if you pray to your god (or God, whatever you want to call it) you're not asking it to do anything?
I'm not being obtuse, can you or can you not change your god (or God)'s mind about something?
It's a simple question that no one seems to want to answer.
Okay so everything has been predetermined so what's the point? Since God knows the alpha and omega of the everything our choices are meaningless because they are not our choices are they? TheyÂ’re a script written before we were born that we cannot (by your ideas) deviate from.
Seems rather meaningless to me, for a god to create a universe full of stuff that has already happened as far as heÂ’s concerned.
But thanks for the answer.
According to my faith (and we are not all of the same faith, I don't think, so your mileage may vary), God knew us and loved us (warts and all) before we were ever born, and will love us no matter what. What God wants from us more than anything is an individual relationship with each and every one of us, one-on one. That's pretty heady stuff once you get your mind around it. He cares very much about you, salvage, believes in you, and wants to have a relationship with you.
But you know something else?
God granted each of us free will.
He will not force you to accept him, and will not force you to pursue him. He wants to have a relationship with you, but he won't make up your mind for you. He'll simply welcome you with open arms when and if you do decided you want to seek him.
I'm personally quite convinced that he isn't too keen on religion itself, as the process and formalities and rules imposed by people get in the way of the individual relationship. Religion screws a lot of things up (simply pick up a history book), leading to all sorts of manmade problems that get blamed on God. We really screw things up quiet a bit. Because of this, for a lot of years, I got away from God because I confused the relationship I wanted with religion I was a part of. Once I learned to push the rules and the process set down by man for a direct relationship, I felt a much stronger connection. God doesn't want to talk down to you. I believe he is your creator, savior and
friend.
So to answer your questions more directly from my point of view, "what does prayer do?"
Prayer exists as an "always on" communication channel between me and God (and I speak of the Trinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit when I say God here). I don't have to be in church, or kneeling with my hands clasped to talk to God. It isn't about a position of a tone or specific subjects. I talk to him much as I would anyone I love or am friends with. I speak to him in reverence and passion, with want, wonder, laughter and even anger at times, about all sorts of things. Nothing is off limits. How can it be, when he's omnipotent?
Another thing about God is the many hats he wears. It goes with the omnipotence thing, but often people get bogged down in the thought that God should be addressed solely as a King, and (the King of Kings), and there is a time and a place for that, but He is also known as the wonderful Counselor.
Prayer to God isn't about asking for things to happen or not happen. If that is all you use prayer for, in my opinion, you're missing the point. Prayer is a back and forth between you and the best friend you will ever have, the One who loves you more than any human on this planet possibility could. What does prayer do? It soothes the soul, helps you find answers, and provides guidance and inner peace.
Salvage then asked if prayer change God's mind. The short answer? I doubt it. The simple fact is that God I believe in is omnipotent, which means he knows all, and therefore, how could our puny human minds come up with an angle he hasn't thought of? We may not like what our lives bring us, but to steal a bit from Garth Brooks, "just because he doesn't answer doesn't mean he don't care. some of God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers."
Salvage then asks.. and I think he's being quite honest when he asks:
So it's a communication... 'kay so the prayerer doesn't expect any reaction one way or the other? So if you pray to your god (or God, whatever you want to call it) you're not asking it to do anything?
Of
course we expect a reaction. Not quite the answer you were probably expecting, but when I talk with God, most times I get a response, and quite frequently sooner rather than later, but it is always was worth the wait. The immediate reaction one might get is personal. Not "private" personal, but it effects each one of us differently, it is individualized. The problem is that we've spent so much of our lives pushing away from God, that we tend to have a hard time listening to what he is trying to tell us. Learning to talk to God is like learning a new language. It isn't always easy to pick up, but it is worth the effort, and once you understand it, you won't easily forget it.
And ask for what I discuss during my prayers, certainly, I do ask for things. I ask for guidance, and pray to help others frequently, but asking for stuff isn't all there is to prayer. AS Bob notes above there are all kinds of prayers, and I think most of mine are thanking God for various blessings, and asking for forgiveness (which he always grants) when I've screwed something up, which being a normal flawed human, I do quite often. I'm in love with and in awe of God, of how much he cares for us, for me and you as individuals. That the Almighty truly cares for each of us is a lot to get your head around, but once you start to get that--in my case at least--I'm constantly humbled that a being so powerful could care so much about my lilÂ’ old soul. It's heady stuff.
I'm not being obtuse, can you or can you not change your god (or God)'s mind about something?
It's a simple question that no one seems to want to answer.
Todd nailed the answer:
Consider this: we pray, not because we need to convince God of our wants or needs (He knows them already), but because he wants us to ask. Why? To help us learn and grow and exhibit our faith in Him, not to mention develop humility. Prayer is God's gift to us, not ours to him.
In the same vein, can we turn God's mind toward ours? No, the purpose of prayer is to turn ours to God's. A wise man once said, if God is the creator of all things, the only thing that is truly ours to give is our will. But he won't take it, we must offer it willingly. I believe it was Abraham Lincoln who said, it is not so important to know if God is on our side, as it is to know if we are on His!
Salvage then asks:
Okay so everything has been predetermined so what's the point? Since God knows the alpha and omega of the everything our choices are meaningless because they are not our choices are they? TheyÂ’re a script written before we were born that we cannot (by your ideas) deviate from.
Seems rather meaningless to me, for a god to create a universe full of stuff that has already happened as far as heÂ’s concerned.
I disagree with my esteemed Israeli friend when he says God is "outside the global/mortal scheme of things." Not that that is incorrect because God certainly has the long view, but He's also close enough to touch, and even inside you once you invite him in to your life. He's a constant companion, with you always.
And while God knows how your life begins and ends, he does not preordain your path. Again, he granted us free will to make our own decisions. It is because of this free will that Bad Things as well as good things can happen, because people were freed by God to make their own way and follow their own paths. It is the journey that you take that matters. Life is a "choose your own adventure" story with the greatest Author of all there for guidance on how to write it, if you only ask for his help.
Salvage, if you really want questions to your questions I can offer up a wonderful book recommendation to get you started on your way. There is a book called
Dinner with a Perfect Stranger that is a very quick read, and should only take you a couple of hours. I just got done with the sequel to that book last night in about an hour, but I read faster than most. I sincerely hope you find the answers you are looking for.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 22, 2006 09:56 AM (g5Nba)
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>So while outcomes are likely known by God,
Likely? How can there be an uncertainty factor with an omnipotent being?
>I have to ask this; are you on paTroll using the time honored technique recognized by parents from all points - "But why?...."
And if so Why?
Because IÂ’m trying to understand, the more and more I learn about religions the less and less sense it makes. IÂ’m trying to see what you see to better understand the mentality behind it. IÂ’ll be honest, I mock the heck out of it because it strikes me as terribly silly but at the same time IÂ’m genuinely curious as to the whys.
See to me if there really was a god there would be no questions, how can a perfect being that created something like a universe leave behind any confusion? ThatÂ’s why I cannot accept the Judaeo-Christian beliefs; the Bible is a whole raft of contradictions and inconsistencies. I find it hard to believe the same hand that made something as clever as an eyeball or a humming bird would express itself in such a clumsy and convoluted manner. The Bible is such a hodgepodge that it could only come from the maelstrom that is the human mind.
For instance the whole thing about Job has always bugged me, even when I was a kid. Why would God need to prove anything to the Devil? WouldnÂ’t God already know the outcome of any test of his creation? Why would he care what his evil opponent thought about anything? Putting someone through misery just to prove a point to a rival? DoesnÂ’t that strike anyone else as being terribly human and very far from divine?
Anyway, the whole “forcing the hand of god” thing reminded me of one of the questions I have, that is can your god’s mind be changed?
And if the answer is no than I wonder what people pray to their gods for when they make a specific request as from what I understand religious people are prone to do.
If the answer is yes than that calls into question the whole omnipotent thing.
IÂ’ve stopped talking to my parents about religion, it never goes well.
Thanks for you answers tho!
Posted by: salvage at August 22, 2006 10:07 AM (xWitf)
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To correct a misunderstanding....
I didn't mean that our path in life is predetermined, simply God, being omnipotent, allmighty and set out of the loop which we call time knows everything that has been, is and will be, forever. But still - our destiny is ours to forge it and unfold a new chapter of our lives every day as we advance through time making our choices for the good or for the bad. The fact that God knows it all doesn't make it any less real for us mortals. We have our will and we make our fate by our own hands, the prayer is one of the aspects of this will, but our needs, problems and struggles are known to him already. That was my point.
And to CY - I did say that God stands out of our 4 dimetional universe, but I do agree with you that he is close to us, clother then anything else in the world ever could be. The two things don't contredict each other.
And one more thing - there IS wrong and right in a religion and in our relationship with God.
Religion is just a set of man-made rules to solidify that relationship. But ANY such relationship must be based on the rules of common sense (like that killing is wrong, children should be protected, anyone has the right to belive in what they want and etc.).
One a religion strays too far from this common sense it can't be treated as legitimate by sane people with healthy common sense. That means that religions that contredict those basic rules of common sense (like religions that allow pedofilia, call for murder of unbelivers and etc.) should be BANNED. Not only because they endanger innocents, but also because they are an affront to God and all that He stands for.
Regards, F. Sgt. Alex
Posted by: First Sergeant Alex at August 22, 2006 08:15 PM (ri/u4)
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Do the Hojjatieh seek to end the world on their terms? If is is indeed their plan, I pray that they now reconsider.
It worked! Oh, thank you, just and powerful God! We are spared!
Posted by: bad attitude at August 23, 2006 01:52 AM (4K53w)
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Good morning. Well salvage, much of what you have said could have come out of my mouth along the way.
The uncertainty of the world and your understanding does not spring from a lack of God's omnipotence but rather from the lack of ours. That fact really is pretty self evident if you give it some thought. Having spent a few years working away at it, I'll share a few aspects of where my faith has lead me:
You see, as we delve farther into real world knowledge, yet more mysteries unfold. Cosmologists have a running joke. As scientists climb the mountain of knowledge and approach the summit, they are stunned to find a handful of holy men at the top. When asked how they could possibly understand the origins of the universe the holy men respond; "Simple, we have faith".
We are finite vessels. It would be the mother of all blivets (ten pounds of crap, meet mister five pound bag) to fit the knowledge of the universe within us so faith is like that box drawn on the blackboard in the middle of the equation that simply says "and here the miracle occurs".
The real mystery is within the box but since that is to big to get your head around, we'll argue about the wording. Of real concern to many should be what is in the black box but our limitations shift the focus to the syntax of the writing on it. And oh by the way, even when we marginally agree on what the writing should say, what font to use, etc, we'll still write it down wrong amongst ourselves.
As for the confusion, well your children don't/won't learn without being confused and making mistakes and since we're grown up children....
So relax. Continue to ask questions and try to avoid a great deal of frustration - yours and others. This advice springs from someone wound so tightly he makes springs scream but hey, it's a goal. You aren't going to get it all and that which you think you have a handle on is going to be in conflict with what others think. Sometimes that conflict is going to lead to heads rolling.
At that point your questions should probably be whose?
Hope that helps to address some of the issues that underlie the specifics you have mentioned.
Posted by: Brian at August 23, 2006 06:39 AM (6CDOn)
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Goodbye, Joe
Via
CNN:
Photographer Joe Rosenthal, who won a Pulitzer Prize for his immortal image of six World War II servicemen raising an American flag over battle-scarred Iwo Jima, died Sunday. He was 94.
Rosenthal died of natural causes at an assisted living facility in the San Francisco suburb of Novato, said his daughter, Anne Rosenthal.
"He was a good and honest man, he had real integrity," Anne Rosenthal said.
His photo, taken for The Associated Press on Feb. 23, 1945, became the model for the Iwo Jima Memorial near Arlington National Cemetery in Virginia. The memorial, dedicated in 1954 and known officially as the Marine Corps War Memorial, commemorates the Marines who died taking the Pacific island in World War II.
Update: The insipid nature of the anti-war left rears its misshapen head once more, as the malecontents at Sadly No! and their friends at Salon.com's Daou Report see my mention of Joe Rosenthal's passing as a chance to attack both myself and for some odd reason, Rosenthal. To using the passing of an iconic American photographer to attack a relatively obscure blogger betrays a pettiness I personally find repulsive and a bit unsettling, but sadly, par for the course. My response to Sadly No! in the comments of that site are as follows:
So the great “Sadly No!” catch of hypocrisy is what, exactly?
Some have postulated over the years that Joe Rosenthal somehow staged the second flag raising on Iwo Jima, yet not one human soul have ever been able to provide the first shred of proof that the allegations they raised were true, as even your own cited sources concur.
This is in stark contrast to copious evidence that some (I never said nor implied all, as you scurrilously and inaccurately charge) media photographers in Lebanon staged photos, and individual photos by several others were left suspect. No less an authority on photojournalism than David Perlmutter, a man who quite literally “wrote the book” on photojournalism, has come out strongly condemning the actions of these photographers and the media organizations that they represent in Editor & Publisher.
I've only played a small role in exposing some of the photojournalist fraud coming from Lebanon, but I am proud of the work I've done, as is Perlmutter, and at least one major combat photojournalist (a Pulitzer nominee, I may add) who has stated to me privately in e-mail that he is impressed with my ability to catch some of the things I've noticed in staged and biased photojournalism coming from Lebanon.
That you would try to make a comparison between the unproven and mostly discredited charges against Rosenthal that even your own sources cannot support, and the very real and proven charges that have been levied against some Lebanese war photographers, shows a sloppiness in thinking here that quite frankly, I've come to expect.
Not surprisingly, none of the commentors there has a substantive rebuttal.
Update 2:
Via email, from David D. Perlmutter, by permission:
The overwhelming evidence, including the testimony of everyone present at the flag-raisings--both of them--was that the photograph that has become the famous icon was NOT staged. In brief, what happened was that Rosenthal took a series of still pictures of both flag-raisings. At the same time, a movie cameraman recorded the full event. The second flag-raising occurred because the first flag was too small to be seen by Marines and other military personnel throughout the island and at sea. Joe Rosenthal did not ask anyone to raise a flag, did not pose anyone raising a flag, and the second flag would have been raised in same way even if there had been no photographers present. In other words, it was 100 percent NOT a staged photo. The complication occurred because at that time photographers rarely developed their own film in the field. Rosenthal put the role in a can and sent it off for developing. Subsequently, the picture of the second flag-raising, the shot that we now recognize as the great icon, became a sensation. Rosenthal, caught up in the battle, knew nothing about his own success. Weeks later, when told that one of his photographs had become celebrated, he assumed that the questioner referred to another photograph in which the military personnel posed around the flag and talked about it as one he helped set up. Unfortunately, even though the error was corrected very quickly, it has become a data virus in the history of photojournalism. I will add that it is also a very hurtful error, both to the men who raised the flag--some of whom were killed in the battle in the days to follow--and to a sensitive and decent photojournalist. As an added note, as any working Photog can tell you, the photo violates some basic schoolbook rules of photojournalism, so, for example, he would have gotten more faces in “staged” image.
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Posted by: Redhand at August 21, 2006 07:26 AM (7G9b2)
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How, exactly, did you get that
Redhand? Too much friction?
The war in the Pacific was not staged. Millions of lives lost in WWII to protect your sorry @$$ were not staged.
Posted by: Retired Spy at August 21, 2006 08:50 AM (Xw2ki)
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Spy - Redhand was referring to the contemporary allegations that Rosenthal had posed the picture. He didn't. There is separate film footage showing that the event wasn't posed.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at August 21, 2006 09:17 AM (jHBWL)
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I don't know how many times I've seen that photo fo some of our finest, and it still gets to me every time...I must be getting old.
Posted by: BobG at August 21, 2006 10:11 AM (qbnTd)
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Need more coffee; I seem to be breaking out in typos...
Posted by: BobG at August 21, 2006 10:11 AM (qbnTd)
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Reading "Flags of Our Fathers" by James Bradley should clear up any confusion over Rosenthal's photograph. It also tells a sad, but good story.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at August 21, 2006 02:51 PM (jHBWL)
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and, as this usually comes up in these discussions, the 'Moment of Death' picture taken by Capa during the Spanish Civil War was not staged either.
There was some 70's era discussion that the photo had to be staged based on a bunch of assumptions that didn't pan out. National Geographic (I think) ran a five page series in that documented case that the photo was legit.
The guys at SadlyNo!: Lively intellects unburdened by facts, experience, or reality.
Posted by: BumperStickerist at August 21, 2006 04:02 PM (PcDvW)
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To be fair, the SadlyNo crowd say that their point was not that the Iwo Jima photo was staged, but that this was an example of a spurious allegation that, once made, has a tendency to stick around - even years later.
Perhaps that is true, but the rumours about Rosenthal were based on a misunderstanding and no other evidence. The speculation about staged photos in Lebanon is based on significant evidence that, while open to interpretation, is perfectly open to inquiry. I, for one, am more than convinced of widespread manipulation.
To my mind the SadlyNo post is unreasonably belittling the evidence concerning the modern scandal, but I think it is unfair to accuse them of intentionally maligning Rosenthal.
Posted by: Trapdoc at August 21, 2006 06:15 PM (m5+1x)
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August 20, 2006
When E.F. Hezbollah Speaks...
...people
listen.
I guess that answers this.
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Never would've guessed.
I thought that the Lebanease army delivered Hizb'Allah radar readings data and let them use the army's radar station for an attack on the Israeli warship INS Hanit just for fun.
Regards, F. S. Alex
Posted by: Fisrt Sergeant Alex at August 20, 2006 02:24 PM (UuKve)
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August 19, 2006
Photojournalism in Crisis
David D. Perlmutter in
Editor and Publisher:
The Israeli-Hezbollah war has left many dead bodies, ruined towns, and wobbling politicians in its wake, but the media historian of the future may also count as one more victim the profession of photojournalism. In twenty years of researching and teaching about the art and trade and doing photo-documentary work, I have never witnessed or heard of such a wave of attacks on the people who take news pictures and on the basic premise that nonfiction news photo- and videography is possible.
I'm not sure, however, if the craft I love is being murdered, committing suicide, or both.
As they say, read the whole thing.
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It's not the craft, it's the craftiness.
Posted by: jay tel aviv at August 19, 2006 05:40 PM (1TMJI)
2
It is good to see this reaction inside the world of reporters and journalists. I am sure they don't like the idea of being used as tools by an enemy loke a jihadist terrorist group - especially being used to disseminate lies. They are, after all, professionals. Professionals who hold freedom and truth as their highest values, as well.
Posted by: Jersey Dave at August 20, 2006 01:07 AM (xIz9u)
3
CY gets props (of a sort) from E&P. Outstanding.
What is disturbing about Perlmutter's piece is that he thinks it should somehow be painful for the journalism business to implement actual integrity.
The second, much more painful option, is to implement your ideals, the ones we still teach in journalism school...
Why should it be "painful", as he says, unless he believes there are some sort of
valid conflicting goals here?
IMO, its only "painful" if you're a lying scumbag being
forced down that path by a public weilding red hot pokers.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 20, 2006 12:18 PM (c/xwT)
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August 18, 2006
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fisk
As the Islamic Armegeddon apparently approaches just
four days hence,
I thought I'd take this opportunity to mention all the thinks I'm going to miss as a result.
Car Swarms
Sadly, this uniquely Palestinian cultural curiosity is about to expire, along with those who practice it. I never quite understood the odd fascination with retrieving bits of flesh from martyrs "liberated" of their earthly chains courtesy of the Israeli Air Force, but it was an interesting custom to view all the same. I'll have to find another pointless expression of impotent rage to fill this void in my life. Is Randi Rhodes still on the air?
"Differently-Abled" Suicide Bombers
Say what you will about their people skills and willingness to accept those of other beliefs, the various terrorist groups in the Middle East have always believed in diversity, even allowing the mentally infirm and gullible a direct shot at paradise.
If only we cared enough to extend equal opportunities across all strata and mental levels of our society, perhaps we could be as great a culture. Then again, Cynthia McKinney was elected twice, so perhaps we're doing better in this regard than I originally thought.
Sand
The price is certainly going to go up. Of course, glass will become much more economical, so it might balance out.
Arab Media
I'll be honest: they've provided me a lot of material in past weeks, and I'm going to miss their fine original craftsmanship, which was openly appreciated in our own media outlets as well. Bill Keller is going to have to find a new mentor, but no doubt he'll land on his feet on a nice marble floor. So long, Qana Chameleons, and thanks for all the Fisk.
Hummus
No, not really.
You may look at this admittedly short list and ask, "hey, what about all the things in the "Great Satan" and the "Little Satan" that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadabbracadabrajad has promised to destroy as he brings forth the holy cleansing fire of the Hidden Imam?"
And I'll look back at you with a smile on may face and say those four sweet, magic words, "North Korea-designed missiles."
I'll see you on the 23rd.
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Cy, a great post again, though I got to disagree with you.
Even if Mahmud Ahmadinif@cked will launch an attack on Israel we have some means to defend against it (the Hetz 3 ani-ballistic missile).
But yes, the Israeli response will be quite quick and definatly devastating.
Albeit, you'll still have your palestinians and at least a part of the Arab media so don't be so sad.
See you on the 23rd.
F. Sgt. Alex
Posted by: First Sergeant Alex at August 18, 2006 12:12 PM (2pCwu)
2
You have the audacity to disparage the great and powerful hummus!?!? To the streets my brethren. The comic strip jihad will be nothing compared to the hummus one!
Posted by: The Moderate Muslim at August 19, 2006 10:48 AM (++0ve)
3
I couldn't get your trackback to work, so just wanted to let you know that I linked to you in a post I did about the irony that, within weeks of Hezbollah's being accused of shipping handicapped kids into Qana to use them for Israeli target practice, the "Arab Group" at the UN made a medium to-do about occupation forces abusing handicapped people during times of war. http://bookwormroom.wordpress.com/2006/08/18/a-bizarre-juxtaposition-or-the-chutzpah-of-it-all/
Posted by: Bookworm at August 19, 2006 11:18 AM (i/AgA)
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hummus has been known to raise HDL. thats why these creeps only die from strapping ecplosives around their chests.
Posted by: jay tel aviv at August 19, 2006 05:43 PM (1TMJI)
5
Mee...mee...mee...
Happy trails to you,
Until we meet again.
Happy trails to you,
Keep smilin' until then.
Posted by: Eg at August 19, 2006 08:10 PM (JROsA)
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Southern Hospitality
The Lebanese Interior Minstry is outraged over a video showing Lebanese soldiers offering tea to Israeli soldiers during the invasion of Marjeyoun on August 10. The Interior Ministry is ordering the base commander, Gen. Adnan Daoud, to be placed under arrest.
Here is an account of what transpired via CNN:
There have been conflicting accounts of what happened at Marjeyoun.
In the video, two Israeli tanks roll up to the gate of the Marjeyoun garrison, where a white surrender flag flutters outside the barracks.
Inside, Lebanese soldiers hold trays with glasses of tea, which they offer to the Israelis. The encounter appears merely social.
However, it is possible that unpleasant parts of the video were deleted during editing.
This is in opposition to accounts of what happened when Israeli soldiers arrived according to several Arab media outlets.
Arab-language network Al-Jazeera has quoted Hezbollah as saying "violent battles" took place with their militants, and Arab news networks Al-Manar and Al-Arabiya reported at least two Israeli tanks were destroyed in the fighting.
Apparently, the new Arab media definition of "destroyed" has been expanded to cover the spilling of milk and sugar on army vehicles. That, or they are lying, and who would expect that from professional media organizations?
While I certainly wouldn't want American soldiers extending this amount of hospitality to foreign invaders, I can't say I blame the Lebanese. They are, after all, only following our example.
The Administration has taken the "tea and cookies" route in dealing with the invasion of illegal immigrants across our southern border for years, so perhaps this model behavior explains this exchange between the Israeli and Lebanese commanders on the scene, as captured on the video:
At one point in the video, Daoud and an Israeli soldier have the following exchange, as translated by CNN's Octavia Nasr:
Daoud: "Don't we need to tell our bosses?"
Israeli soldier: "Tell whoever you want."
Daoud: "We need to brief them on what happened."
Israeli soldier: "We briefed (U.S. President) Bush. You brief whoever you want."
Daoud: "We need to brief Bush too."
While translating democracy to Arab culture continues to be problematic of the President, at least it appears his overly friendly "southern hospitality" is finding admirers around the world.
That, or Lebanese soldiers with small arms don't feel like getting themselves killed for nothing. And after all Hezbollah has done for Lebanon...
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CY, great post again.
One thing that I'd like to clear out. The "Isreli soldier" talking to the Lebanese general on the video is in fact an IDF Colnel (you can clearly see the 3 leaves on his shoulder).
Note, that during the entire war Lebanease army did little to try and hinder IDF's effort against Hizb'Allah.
Mabe it's because former Lebanease army General Antuan Laheed is currently living in Israel. Who knows, mabe he still has connections back at home.
Regards, F. Sgt. Alex
Posted by: Fisrt Sergeant Alex at August 19, 2006 05:47 AM (Qp1AX)
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The Lebanonese Army has always been allies with the IDF, and served as a buffer against Syria for the IDF for several years when Israel last occupied Southern Lebanon.
Posted by: Mike Meyer at August 19, 2006 03:18 PM (uV5RC)
3
Mike,
During the Southern Lebanon ocupation of 1982-2000 Israel used 2 devisions of the Lebanease army (that broke away from the bulk of the Lebanease army when Siria occupied most of Lebanon) to create the Southern Lebanease Army, which was placed in the buffer zone between Hizba'Allah with Sirian forces and Israel alongside Israeli forces.
The commander of this rouge force was no other then General Antuan Laheed.
When Israel pulled out of Lebanon in 2000 it evacuted the SLA to Israeli territory and then disbanded it. Most of SLA personnel still leave in Israel with their families, some SLA forces have been integrated into the IDF.
It's quite possible though that Israel has a strong connection to Lebanease Army via Gen. Laheed and other former LSA officers, though they are considered traitors in Lebanon.
Regards, F. Sgt. Alex
Posted by: First Sergeant Alex at August 20, 2006 08:10 AM (yyjbD)
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First Sergeant Alex:
I just imagine that after 18 years in one spot someone had to make a few friends and contacts even if it's just business. There's probably less of that now than 3 months ago. It's looks like the IDF has worn out its welcome, again.
Posted by: Mike Meyer at August 20, 2006 12:17 PM (stNIg)
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Mike,
You said:
I just imagine that after 18 years in one spot someone had to make a few friends and contacts even if it's just business. There's probably less of that now than 3 months ago. It's looks like the IDF has worn out its welcome, again.
Well, so it seems, my friend.
Or so it's intended to seem, if only to protect the lives of those involved and their families (you know, the Hizb'Allah can be quite ruthless at times). One can only wonder how the target bank was replanished during the war and other minor things like deep inteligence data and etc.
I won't and can't add any other word on this due to obvious reasons. Drive your own conclusions on this one.
Regards, F. Sgt. Alex
Posted by: Fisrt Sergeant Alex at August 20, 2006 02:09 PM (UuKve)
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First Sergeant Alex:
Take Care my Friend.
Posted by: Mike Meyer at August 21, 2006 05:48 PM (HH7vy)
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Thank you Mike, I'll certainly try.
Thou as things look to be developing - my stay in relative safety will soon come to an end.
"But somebody has to do this hard and dirty work, or nobody will do it" - my CO always says.
Regards, F. Sgt. Alex
Posted by: Fisrt Sergeant Alex at August 21, 2006 06:27 PM (r4IwI)
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August 17, 2006
A Blip
As you know by now, a liberal Detroit judge has
ruled against the NSA's terrorist communications intercept program initiated by President Bush. If you fan out across the blogosphere,
everyone has an opinion on the ruling.
I'm not really up to it, so I'll go with the professionals, starting with the Volokh Conspiracy
Eugene Volokh:
...the judge's opinion in today's NSA eavesdropping case seems not just ill-reasoned, but rhetorically ill-conceived. A careful, thoughtful, detailed, studiously calm and impartial-seeming opinion might have swung some higher court judges (and indirectly some Justices, if it comes to that). A seemingly angry, almost partisan-sounding opinion ("[The orders] violate the Separation of Powers ordained by the very Constitution of which this President is a creature," emphasis added, thanks to a caller for pointing this out) is unlikely to sway the other judges — especially when the opinion is rich in generalities, platitudes ("There are no hereditary Kings in America and no powers not created by the Constitution"), and "obviously"'s, and poor in detailed discussion of some of the government's strongest arguments.
Dale Carpenter:
I am one of those who believes that the NSA program is not authorized by the AUMF, that it violates FISA, that FISA is a constitutional exercise of congressional power, and that therefore the NSA program is both illegal and unconstitutional. I have written so here. But I am less sure this is an issue courts should review, and even less sure that this case is one they should review.
So while the much sexier questions of executive power, the First Amendment, and the Fourth Amendment, will no doubt occupy many of us over the coming months (as they already have), I'd be willing to bet that at either the appellate court or the Supreme Court the suit will be dismissed for lack of standing.
Orin Kerr:
I've just read through the Fourth Amendment part of Judge Taylor's opinion on the NSA domestic wiretapping opinion, and, well, um, it's kind of hard to know what to make of it. There really isn't any analysis; rather, it's just a few pages of general ruminations about the Fourth Amendment (much of it incomplete and some of it simply incorrect) followed by the statement in passing that the program is "obviously" in violation of the Fourth Amendment...
It's hardly obvious that the program — or some aspect of it — violates the Fourth Amendment; that's the issue before the court, and my sense is that we really don't know enough to answer it without knowing the facts...
I can come up with explanations for why a district court judge inclined to rule against the program would put out an opinion that isn't quite ready for prime time. For example, Senator Specter's bill would take these issues away from the district court, so the choice might be to speak now or never. But at least based on the court's Fourth Amendment analysis, I suspect this opinion is important more for its political impact and its triggering of appellate review than for any analysis in the opinion itself.
Mark Levin hits many of the same points. The consensus among these legal scholars is that the judge made a very weak ruling, and seem to indicate that it will probably get tossed at a September 7 appellate court hearing.
My gut reaction? The ACLU venue-shopped to get a judge that fit their needs, and won a short-term political victory. In the long run, it won't affect the operations of the NSA program all that much, if at all.
I just can't get too excited or irate over a case that seems assured to die a quick death.
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It seems there was two main player in this lawsuit. The anti-american ACLU and a totally terrorists organizaton called CAIR. Now I know the left wing demorats are more dangerous than all of the terrorist in the world. They are supporting both of these organization that are out to destroy America.
Posted by: Scrapiron at August 18, 2006 12:36 AM (fEnUg)
Posted by: Bill Faith at August 18, 2006 12:37 AM (n7SaI)
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Last February would have been a quick death. You're a tad late for that prognostication.
Posted by: Mike Meyer at August 18, 2006 08:03 PM (oCro8)
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Liberals and terrorists 's what I call 'eml. What kinds of crazies stand up for the induhidual rights of citizens in the face of encroaching government tyranny?
Posted by: doodoo at August 20, 2006 06:06 PM (RgCSs)
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Pocketbook Jihad
Look at any of the casualty figures coming out of Lebanon in the world's major media organizations, and you'll see something very close to
this:
The Lebanese death toll, meanwhile, rose to 842 when rescue workers pulled 32 bodies from the rubble in the southern town of Srifa, target of some of Israel's heaviest bombardment in the 34-day conflict. The figure was assembled from reports by security and police officials, doctors and civil defense workers, morgue attendants as well as the military.
The Israeli toll was 157, including 118 soldiers, according to its military and government.
What is missing from this death toll (which CBS News has now quietly removed from this web report) are the casualties sustained by Hezbollah.
Many people would presumably be interested in knowing the toll the war has had on Hezbollah, as Hezbollah's actions did indeed trigger this latest war. But a recalcitrant media has steadfastly refused to provide these figures.
The Israel Defense Forces, as a standard practice, makes an effort to photograph and document each Hezbollah fighter confirmed killed, and also estimates the number of unconfirmed/unclaimed Hezbollah casualties from air strikes and artillery fire. Certainly, a media that has spent a considerable amount of their time and resources ferreting out and reporting America's secret national security programs could easily access unclassified information, some of which has been published on the IDF's own web site. Even a cursory analysis of the world's media reporting out of Lebanon reveals that in photographs, on video and radio broadcasts, and in print, Hezbollah casualties are almost never reported. So why does the media choose to underreport Hezbollah's casualties?
The answer may at least partially lie in stories of Lebanese casualties that the world media does choose to report. Story after story, photo after photo, dead and distraught Lebanese civilians clog the mediastream, building a false, grim montage of a war in which primarily Israeli soldiers and Lebanese civilians die.
This is not the whole truth of this war, but a partial truth developed through complacency and an apparent willful disregard to report the facts on the ground. Instead of seeking and publishing the entire truth, newsrooms have decided that they will publish the stories and images framed by foreign, mostly Arab Muslim reporters, even though their own cultural interests in these events are a clear and undeniable conflict of interest precluding even a pretense of unbiased reporting.
This is beyond bias, it is a reckless and willful disregard for reporting the whole truth in favor of reporting "news" that is easier to sell in a larger world media market. The casualty statistics are there, but the media sticks to the narrative they have helped create because while honest reporting is a goal, the business of the media business is business.
If it "bleeds it leads," but only if what leads sells advertising. News consumers around the world consume the news that more closely matches their perceptions of how reality should be, and stories critical of Hezbollah, stories that show their failures and deaths, don't sell in world population featuring 1.3 billion Muslims that hope for Israel's demise, or at the very best are indifferent to their fate. It is anti-Semitism by cashflow, a pocketbook jihad that buys the media's silence.
This morning I received a comment from an IDF sergeant, stating in part:
It's not classified, but I dought[sic] you'll ever see these figures in the MSM. According to our statistics we (the IDF) have scored OVER 600 CONFIRMED enemy kills (photgrphed [sic], documented, claimed and added to the killboard, I personally scored 2 kills to add to my record) and another 800-1200 unconfirmed/unclaimed kills (this estimation includes kills form airstrikes/artillary shelling). The Hizb'Allah losses aren't counted, on the most part, against the official number of Lebanease[sic] casualties.
Hezbollah has suffered 500-600+ confirmed fatalities, and estimates are that another 800-1200 are dead; perhaps half of Hezbollah's armed forces, and yet the media chooses to ignore these readily accessed figures in favor of a more marketable Lebanese civilian body count.
The media chooses to underreport Hezbollah's casualties because it is bad for business, while it unashamedly pimps civilian corpses for profit. That is just one of the ugly realities of this war that isn't considered "all the news that's fit to print."
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CY, It's clear the MSM refuses to distinguish militant
proxies from innocent
civilians in the ME. To them it's as if Hezbollah is just a local Lebanese chapter of the Lions Club.
I think the reason for this blindness is that the incisive investigative work that publicizes this civilian-militant distinction opens a terrifying pandoras box for them. The MSM penchant for faddish pacifism, UN primacy, "multiculturalism," transnationalism and anti-republicanism will come under rational scrutiiny if they report that expatriate Hezbollah fighters are
not Lebanese.
It boils down to accountability. Proxies allow an antagonist to escape accountability for its proxies' actions. But, a community of bounded nation-states asserts that accountability. So, given that the progressive's socialist global agenda requires that personal and national accountability be discounted, we shouldn't be surprised that the MSM doesn't want to probe too deeply here.
Maybe, too, it's because the MSM has become a proxy mouthpiece for progressive politicians in America, Australia and Europe, and they don't want critiques of proxy-actions
in general to gain front-page notoriety. People might start asking questions.
-Steve
Posted by: Steve at August 17, 2006 10:22 AM (mw+rq)
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Murtha Lied (Confirmed)
Patterico
has directly confirmed that Democratic Rep. John Murtha just flat out
lied about when he was briefed about Haditha.
It appears that the DNC's retreat specialist is in trouble.
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I was wondering this morning why we haven't heard hide nor hair of him in so long. Maybe this is why.
I wonder how his reelection is doing.
Posted by: monkeyboy at August 17, 2006 07:28 AM (w4rJE)
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patterico is grasping at straws.
the la times said murtha's source on haditha was a briefing from hagee, but patterico alleges, perhaps even correctly, that hagee didn't brief murtha until a week after murtha spoke out about haditha. thus patterico thinks he gets the two birds in the bush, slamming murtha for lying and the times for covering up those lies.
the problem is murtha's source wasn't hagee. it was, as might be expected by a key pipeline between the military and congress, unnamed military sources.
did the la times do shoddy reporting? perhaps. but murtha's integrity is beyond reproach. and his seat, btw, is also very safe.
Posted by: angry young man at August 17, 2006 09:49 AM (vC1jc)
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Wrongo angry,
When asked where he got the information upon which he based his now infamous statement, Murtha himself claimed in the Philadelphia Enquirer that the source was Hagee. Sorry. You Lose. Next Player?
Posted by: Specter at August 17, 2006 12:49 PM (ybfXM)
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which would suggest that hagee was the unnamed military source. if he's going to try to burn murtha to cover his ass, i don't see why murtha shouldn't burn him in his own defense.
Posted by: angry young man at August 17, 2006 02:37 PM (vC1jc)
5
Let's see what old Jello Jowls has to say when testifying under oath, OK? He
IS the defendant in a defamation lawsuit against him. He can sink or tread water or get his butt to swimming.
Posted by: Retired Spy at August 17, 2006 04:09 PM (Xw2ki)
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angry,
It doesn't suggest it - Murtha claimed it. In Print. In front of the world. Sorry but you already lost this game. Try another.
Posted by: Specter at August 17, 2006 06:34 PM (ybfXM)
7
Here's what the Inquirer reported:
"Asked about this in the interview, Murtha said the information came from Gen. Michael Hagee, the commandant of the Marine Corps, in a one-on-one conversation the day before Hagee made a trip to Iraq. Hagee did not use the term "in cold blood," he added.
"Col. Dave Lapan, a Marine spokesman, disputed Murtha's account.
"He said the commandant did brief Murtha about the Haditha incident. But he said that was on May 24, a week after Murtha made his public comment. The next day, May 25, Hagee left for Iraq, he said."
In other words, it's Murtha's word against the mouthpiece the Marines sent out to deflect attention from the massacre at Haditha, a job facilitated by the Swift Boat liars who were, you'll remember, shouted out of town during the attempted protest. One wonders, also, if the commandant was sped from America so quickly so he could dodge any direct questions about he knew about Haditha.
I wonder if Col. Lapan will be the one to testify in court for Hagee too as to the facts of his revelations.
Nice try, boys. Haditha happened, and it happened not because our soldiers are inherently bad, but because their training has not prepared them for the jobs they're expected to do; and because that job is unclear, being built on Bush Administration ideology, not military strategy. Smearing Murtha, who's earned more respect than most for actually fighting in wars, won't make Haditha go away--or what it signals about Bush's Folly and the fact that we obviously don't have the supposed best trained military in the world.
Posted by: angry young man at August 17, 2006 07:15 PM (2yIW/)
8
He said, she said. Let's take Hagee's spokeswoman's claim at face value and conclude that Murtha must be lying. Yep, makes sense.
Posted by: Kinbote at August 17, 2006 07:25 PM (tC27u)
9
So - everyone agrees that Murtha was not "briefed" until the 24th. Sorry angry - still doesn't explain why Murtha said what he said on the 17th - a full week before he was briefed. You see - you can claim all you want that the Marines are using Hagee as a deflection - but it WAS Murtha who claimed that Hagee briefed him - the whole article was about who was Murtha's source for his "cold blooded murder" comment. How did he know a week in advance? You don't adress facts well do you?
Posted by: Specter at August 17, 2006 08:14 PM (ybfXM)
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Tell me, angry .... what the ^&%$# don't you get about awaiting Murtha's testimony in a court of law? Are you stubborn or just plain dumb?
A little of both, perhaps?
Posted by: Retired Spy at August 17, 2006 08:16 PM (Xw2ki)
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see angry:
Here is what you quoted (my emphasis):
Asked about this in the interview,
Murtha said the information came from Gen. Michael Hagee, the commandant of the Marine Corps, in a one-on-one conversation the day before Hagee made a trip to Iraq. Hagee did not use the term "in cold blood," he added.
But since everyone agrees that Murtha was not briefed until the 24th, how could he have made his accusation on the 17th? Game over.
Posted by: Specter at August 17, 2006 08:23 PM (ybfXM)
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No, I'm not agreeing that Murtha spoke to Hagee on 5/24. The Marine spokesman said 5/24, and I think that's a lie to give Hagee and, more importantly, the Marines cover. We could ask Hagee, of course, but he's been spirited out of the country.
And I look forward to Murtha's testimony, especially if the trial is held in a district where he's beloved more than Santa Claus. My point is, will Hagee also be allowed by the Marines to dispute the date or will the Marines stonewall the court and forbid it, perhaps sending another spokesman in his place.
Why are you so willing to take the word of some flack? Why aren't you calling for Hagee to give his side of the story?
Posted by: angry young man at August 17, 2006 08:40 PM (2yIW/)
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And the key point I forgot mention: Where's Hagee to say he left on 5/25, not 5/18? Was he supposed to leave on 5/18, then didn't leave, unbeknownst to Murtha, until 5/25? Murtha didn't give dates. And the Marines are playing with them. You want answers from Murtha. But you should want answers from Hagee.
Posted by: angry young man at August 17, 2006 08:45 PM (2yIW/)
14
well angry - i see you are the typical troll - unthinking as you are. But I'm sure that one look at the Congressman's schedule for that time frame will tell us what day he met with Hagee. You'd think though that since Murtha is not already jumping up and down stating - "See - my schedule shows that I met with Hagee before I made remarks on the 17th" says a lot more than the fact that the Marines have already disputed the date. Why do you suppose that Murtha - who loves the cameras - hasn't already stated that the Marines are wrong? Wishful thinking on your part maybe?
BTW - "young man" is truly apt. Do you really think the defendant in a law suit gets to pick the venue? Where did you learn law?
Posted by: Specter at August 17, 2006 09:05 PM (ybfXM)
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i don't see why murtha shouldn't burn him in his own defense
That he dropped the name initially and struck out with it suggests if there is another "unnamed source", it wasn't that one.
Murtha is like OJ out there scouring the planet for the "real killers", when all he needs do is look in the mirror ;->
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 17, 2006 10:17 PM (c/xwT)
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1. i'm impressed. it took until the 15th comment before someone called me a troll. but a troll doesn't lay out an argument. a troll simply insults, derides and departs. i haven't done that.
2. you're picking at tiny things because your argument is lacking. did i say the venue would be in murtha's district? no, but i hope it is.
3. murtha hardly loves the cameras. the man's been in congress more than 30 years. did you ever hear of him before he decided to speak out against bush's war? i doubt it. is he like mehlman and his ilk, sprewing the party's talking points from one show to the next? hardly.
4. murtha has nothing to prove. the marines do. hagee does. the swift boat liars who have him murtha in their sites would like to turn things around and put him on the defensive. but they have misunderstood their target because they have no concept of real integrity and the respect it engenders. just as the swift boat rally at murtha's office was shouted down by a sea of murtha's supporters, and just as jean schmidt is going to lose her seat because of her misaimed venom, the swift boating of murtha will fail because 2/3 of the country believe in what he's saying, believe in him, and don't believe a single word that comes out of a republican's mouth.
Posted by: angry young man at August 17, 2006 10:22 PM (2yIW/)
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BS angry.....Murtha is the one who said Hagee told him. Your logic does not apply. Hagee never came into the picture until Murtha said it. See I can do the same thing - Who ever heard of Hagee before Murtha mentioned his name. As for your argument about Murtha not like cams - Care to count how many times he has been on camera in just the last 10 months to a year - more than ever before in his career. You have no argument. Murtha said Hagee told him. Your argument is supposition more than anyone elses - you suggest that the marines are lying - what a bunch of bull. What you are spouting is not serious conversation - just like your comment comparing him to Santa Claus. It is simply your misguided view of yet another conspiracy dreamed up by everybody else - and I mean everybody except a democrat. Nothing democrats do in your world could be wrong. Everything they do is right. And anyone who says anything different is casting the hero in an evil light. Get over it. This one is done. What a maroon.
BTW - when you come into a sight and call everybody else's opinion wrong - especially when you are new - it does make you a TROLL. Get it?
Some day we may actually know what happened at Haditha. But I doubt it. No forensic evidence to be had. But if you think that our guys should have nicely walked up to the door of a house they believed enemy fire came from and knocked and asked if they could speak to the terrorist of the house you are absolutely nutz. It is not the way things are done in a war zone. Kick down door. Toss in Frag. Clearing fire. Then look. Don't be naive.
Posted by: Specter at August 17, 2006 11:08 PM (ybfXM)
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I guess that angry is angry because he believes that a massacre actually happened at Haditha. He believes that the Marines actually decided one day to go out and just kill a bunch of civilians. That they planned it out in advance - talking about how they would just pick a random house (or houses) and then just bust in and shoot everybody inside. Or that they scouted the area to find out which houses had the most civilians inside. Angry believes that it was a conspiracy from the start.
Now - Murtha came out and said - before the investigation was complete mind you - and it is still not complete - that these young soldiers were "cold blooded murderers". He claimed that he was given that information by Hagee (this can be verified in multiple news accounts). The marines say that Hagee did not brief Murtha until after he had made his statement.
Back to Angry - He believes that Haditha was a conspiracy to start with - despite the fact that no conspiracy has been shown (including the alleged attempt to cover it up - you know those marines must be pretty dumb according to people like Angry - I mean they used their radios after the incident to report that they had civilian casualties). So, for angry, if anyone questions Murtha's account it must be yet ANOTHER conspiracy. Wow - they just flare up in your mind continuously, huh angry?
Conspiracy after conspiracy. And they are all orchestrated by Republicans and are after the poor, unappreciated Democrats. Poor angry. Maybe some nice Thorazine for you huh?
Posted by: Specter at August 17, 2006 11:30 PM (ybfXM)
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I read today that the General has poured gasoline on Murtha's ass and confirmed he did not brief the traitor until after he slimed the young marine's. Now each of the marine's deserve one shot at one hundred yards with their favorite weapon ( a real weapon with real live ammo) at Murtha's fat ass. Let the sh** fly out of somewhere besides his lying mouth.
Posted by: Scrapiron at August 18, 2006 12:45 AM (fEnUg)
20
I notice that 'angry young man' seems to think that whoever makes the most noise must be telling the truth.
Posted by: SC88 at August 18, 2006 06:48 PM (hOKJ9)
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why is it that the democrat party is allways out front first to condemn the troops? its very telling
Posted by: buzzard at August 19, 2006 05:29 PM (onz6J)
22
Angry,
Don't know if you will read this or not but this is for you.
If one of my Former Sailors called me a "Cold blooded Killer" before the facts were out, or ran off at the mouth about "cut and run" or "redeploying to Okinawa or Guam" while I was trying to do my job, one that was not in the service for YEARS and didn't know the current situation. One that, while in and serving, served as an AIDE, not a front line commander. I would have a hard time swallowing his swill as well.
Those are the reasons that I find Murtha disgusting.
I can respect that he served, I can respect that he doesn't like the war, I can even respect that he wants our troops home (So do I).
I can't respect that he wants to grandstand on his service thinking that makes him right, I can't respect that he wants to cut and run, redeploy, whatever he calls it this week, I can't resepect that he calls the young Marines with their lives on the lines cold blooded killers without even letting the courts go through the evidence.
I, for one, donated to the IREY campaign hoping that he goes away.
Posted by: Retired Navy at August 21, 2006 09:42 AM (elhVA)
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