November 16, 2006
Not by the Hair of His Chinny-Chin-Chin
Rumors have
long swirled that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was involved the 444-day
Iran hostage crisis, with no less than five hostages coming forward to accuse him publicly of being one of the ringleaders. Other former hostages have said they were uncertain if Ahmadinejad was involved, while others deny his presence.
From time to time the story reemerges with a new twist, and this time that twist was provided by Russian online daily Kommersant, which ran an English-language article with accompanying pictures that seem to show a young Ahmadinejad leaning against the wall of the American embassy in Tehran the day it was stormed.
Texas Rainmaker is convinced that the man in the photo is Ahmadinejad, while Daniel Pipes isn't sure, and Allah flatly says it isn't the Iranian president.
Who's right?
I decided to see if I could get a professional to weigh in on the controversy, and so I sent a short email to several forensic photographers and biometrics experts asking their opinions, based upon the version of side-by-side comparison photo provided at Hot Air.
Certified Forensic Photographer Alexander Jason responded. His verdict?
With the one 1979 photo alone for comparison, it is not possible to make a strong conclusion about that man being the same man in the later photo. However, based upon an analysis of the 1979 photo and other, recent photos of Ahmadinejad, it is my preliminary conclusion that these are NOT the same person.
Some time ago, I was asked by a governmental group to perform an analysis of similar old and new photos. I still had a collection of the recent photos and I used some of them for my analysis.
While there are substantial similarities in the faces and hairlines, it is possible to have such similarities among different people, particularly when they are from a relatively homogenous racial population. The only significant difference I could detect was in the beard grown pattern: Specifically in the area beneath the lower lip. In the older photo, the man appears to have a dense, full beard in that area. In more recent photos of Ahmadinejad, he appears to have relatively sparse beard growth in that area. For that reason, based on the one old photo when compared against more recent photos, it is my opinion that they are two different people.
See the attached image.
Mr. Jason's well-trained eye caught what most of us would have missed. The armed man leaning against the embassy wall in November of 1979 has much more facial hair in the chin area than does Ahmadinejad in the present day photograph. And just in case anyone wants to speculate that Ahmadinejad could have suffered from male pattern chin baldness over time, Mr. Jason has that covered as well.
We may never know who the man with the battle rifle leaning against the U.S. embassy wall in 1979 was, but based upon the photo provided by Kommersant and Mr. Jason's analysis, that man is not Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
* * *
On an unrelated note, Mr. Jason also has an interesting perspective on the JFK assassination.
Who says those working in forensics can't have a sense of humor?
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Posted by: Sissy Willis at November 16, 2006 01:23 PM (FU1id)
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I mentioned the sparse facial hair either side of center below the lip yesterday at Hot Air as the reason I did not think it was Ahmadinejad. It's not something that changes, to which I can personally attest and, I should add, is why I noticed it rather quickly.
OTOH, I'm now uneasy about concurring with a forensic photographer that holds an opinion of the JKF assassination that clearly amounts to quackery. :-)
Posted by: Dusty at November 16, 2006 02:03 PM (GJLeQ)
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Sissy,
That photo's been
debunked.
Good work, CY.
Posted by: John from WuzzaDem at November 16, 2006 03:09 PM (Pt3Le)
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it doesn't matter whether he was a hostage taker or not, he is still scum that the world would be better off without...
Posted by: steve sturm at November 16, 2006 03:55 PM (UDiGL)
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I'm lost. So he hijacked the US Embassy. I'm fond of the U.S but you guys have consistently intefered with Iran for decades now and as far as I can work out, Iraq is the first time Iran has been close enough to fight proper soldiers. Which incidentally is a fight that is commonly held to be a losing battle for the US.
He's a weird character Ahmadinejad though. Typical Phd engineer. Here's some interesting video of him I came across.
http://wcbstv.com/video/?id=91788@wcbs.dayport.com
Posted by: Charles Frith at November 16, 2006 03:57 PM (fuc2r)
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Yes, Charles, you are lost and which also has little, if anything, to do with CY's post.
Posted by: Dusty at November 16, 2006 04:12 PM (GJLeQ)
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CY,
I think you mean Mr. Alexander, not Mr. Jason.
Not that there's anything wrong with that!
Buck Naked
Posted by: George Costanza at November 16, 2006 04:45 PM (D3sAj)
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Uh... If you look at a picture of me from 1979 and compare it to now, you're going to see a whole lot more hair on top of my head than there is now. In my case, the beard still grows as thickly as it did then (although the color of the hair has changed) but who is to say that Male Pattern Baldness can't strike the chin as well as the top of the head?
Posted by: The Monster at November 16, 2006 06:29 PM (tw5mW)
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That guy is too old to be Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. My guess is that is his father.
Posted by: scotty at November 16, 2006 06:51 PM (MO9mZ)
Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 09:09 PM (qf+tj)
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ahmm...has anyone ever heard of beard trimmers? Some weeks my beard below my lip is full. Some is neatly trimmed. Lets look at his nose. Flat and wide.The bags below his eyes, the large earlobes. Im more inclined to say that its an older sibbling. But not just because of facial hair trim style. Paleeeze.
Posted by: Rey at November 16, 2006 11:29 PM (vV0wU)
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From globalsecurity.org: "When the idea of storming the American embassy in Tehran was raised by the OSU, Ahmadinejad suggested storming the Soviet embassy at the same time!" (Former hostage Colonel David Roeder states: Out of his 51 interrogations, Ahmadinejad personally had conducted one-third of them!)
Posted by: MB at November 17, 2006 06:49 PM (TOHVc)
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November 15, 2006
Who Needs Jews, Anyway?
Ralph Peters penned a powerful editorial in this morning's
New York Post advocating that the strongest measures be taken to impose order in Iraq, even if that order goes against the wishes of Iraq's elected government and comes at
the barrel of a gun:
With the situation in Iraq deteriorating daily, sending more troops would simply offer our enemies more targets - unless we decided to use our soldiers and Marines for the primary purpose for which they exist: To fight.
Of course, we've made a decisive shift in our behavior difficult. After empowering a sectarian regime before imposing order in the streets, we would have to defy an elected government. Leading voices in the Baghdad regime - starting with Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki - would demand that we halt any serious effort to defeat Shia militias and eliminate their death squads.
[snip]
From the Iraqi perspective, we're of less and less relevance. They're sure we'll leave. And every faction is determined to do as much damage as possible to the other before we go. Our troops have become human shields for our enemies.
To master Iraq now - if it could be done - we'd have to fight every faction except the Kurds. Are we willing to do that? Are we willing to kill mass murderers and cold-blooded executioners on the spot?
[snip]
Our "humanity" is cowardice masquerading as morality. We're protecting self-appointed religious executioners with our emphasis on a "universal code of behavior" that only exists in our fantasies. By letting the thugs run the streets, we've abandoned the millions of Iraqis who really would prefer peaceful lives and a modicum of progress.
We're blind to the fundamental moral travesty in Iraq (and elsewhere): Spare the killers in the name of human rights, and you deprive the overwhelming majority of the population of their human rights. Instead of being proud of ourselves for our "moral superiority," we should be ashamed to the depths of our souls.
We're not really the enemy of the terrorists, militiamen and insurgents. We're their enablers. In the end, the future of Iraq will be determined by its people. The question is, which people?
While Peters discusses Iraq specifically, much of what he says—particularly of our fantasy of a "universal code of behavior" and our enablement of terrorists—can be more or less directly applied to the budding nuclear terrorist state of Iran.
Iran has already developed long-range missiles that can reach Israel and most of Western Europe, and they are in the process of developing ICBMs capable of hitting the United States. Iran is also in the possession of MIRV warheads to sit atop these missiles designed to deliver a nuclear payload.
At the same time as they refine the technology to deliver nuclear warheads, the Iranian leadership has clearly and repeatedly threatened the existence of Israel, and has indeed stated that they are more than willing to accept a retaliatory nuclear strike if it means eliminating the Jewish state, as Ron Rosenbaum recounts this morning at Pajamas Media:
Back in 2002 I initiated a major controversy among Jewish writers by daring to mention the possibility of a “second Holocaust”—-the destruction of the State of Israel, most likely through a nuclear exchange. I quoted Iranian mullah Hashemi Rasfanjani declaring that Iran would not be particularly upset to lose 10 or 15 million people in a nuclear exchange with Israel if it resulted in the extermination of 5 million Jews there and left a billion or more Muslims alive. Basically he was saying that there was no deterrence. Many didn’t want to face this, think the unthinkable and whined that one shouldn’t say such things aloud, one shouldn’t think so pessimistically, foolishly boasting of the Israeli nuclear deterrent Rasfanjani’s stance made irrelevant. (You can read about this controversy in the anthology of essays on anti-semitism I edited, Those Who Forget the Past).
Alas a Second Holocaust is now virtually Iranian state policy.(although their leader denies the firs tone). Today Drudge links to a report that Iran’s nuclear program is nearly complete. And to a speech by Bibi Netanyahu in Los Angeles in which he says “It’s 1938 and Iran is Germany”. He then adds the despairing “No one cared then. No one cares now.”
The problem is that even if the world did care, it might not make a difference.
Despite repeated threats against Israel's very survival in specific and that of the rest of the world in general, Iran has been allowed to push through with their nation's nuclear program without any serious attempts by the world community to stop them.
Have we, as a world community, decided that the state of Israel and the more than 6 million Jews, Christians, and Arabs who live there and the almost 1.5 million Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are superfluous? Judging by the anemic actions of the world community, I think Rosenbuam's suggestion that the world—including the government of the United States—does not care that Iran seems to have every intention of attempting to "wipe Israel off the map" is entirely correct.
Certainly, we will all feel really bad when Iran carries through with it's threat, but that sentiment will do very little for the 15-20 million people that will have died in the coming nuclear exchange while we stood by watching, unbelieving that the Iranians would do precisely what they told us they would.
Have we chosen to abandon them to this fate? Have we already forgotten in such a few generations that we stood solemly amid the blood and ashes and swore "Never again?"
Let's rewrite one of the Peter's paragraphs above:
Our "humanity" is cowardice masquerading as morality. We're protecting self-appointed religious executioners with our emphasis on a "universal code of behavior" that only exists in our fantasies. By letting the thugs run the streets, we've abandoned the millions of Iraqis Israelis who really would prefer peaceful lives and a modicum of progress.
We're blind to the fundamental moral travesty in Iraq Iran (and elsewhere): Spare the killers in the name of human rights, and you deprive the overwhelming majority of the population of their human rights. Instead of being proud of ourselves for our "moral superiority," we should be ashamed to the depths of our souls.
We're not really the enemy of the terrorists, militiamen and insurgents. We're their enablers. In the end, the future of Iraq the world will be determined by its people. The question is, which people?
Which people, indeed.
Does a mullahcracy intent on exterminating more than six million people (along with 10-15 million of their own citizens as a result of Israel's dying retaliatory strike) get to choose the future of this world through nuclear genocide? Or do we make the difficult and deadly decision to end the mullacracyÂ’s reign, crushing their nuclear aspirations and their leadership before they can carry out their intentions?
Our choice of genocides is amazingly simple: we either wipe out Iran's apocalyptic Hojjatieh mullacracy (perhaps thousands or tens of thousands of lives) and their budding nuclear weapons capability and delivery systems, or we will watch on as horror as our inaction leads to the fiery deaths of tens of millions, including 6 million Jews, 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, and 10-15 million Iranians.
Rosenbaum is wrong when he says that we might not make a difference. We clearly can make a difference, but much to our shame, I fear that we will choose not to.
Note: More here.
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Let me get this straight. One of the leading arguments for not reducing troop levels in Iraq is that it would increase violence. Another is that it would look like an admission of failure on Bush's part. And now Peters is suggesting that the only "sane" (for some value of sanity) option is to basically re-invade a country we already occupy, overthrow the government WE PUT INTO PLACE IN THE NAME OF DEMOCRACY, and start executing people like Pol friggin' Pot. Remember the purple fingers? Those fingers are now flipping us the bird. And Ralph Peters wants to kill them for it.
Posted by: legion at November 15, 2006 12:54 PM (3eWKF)
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"...tens of thousands of lives... or tens of millions..."
While I agree with the premise (we must crush Iran now, or else) I think the above is the equivalent of any moral equivalence I've seen anywhere.
In a proper morality, the lives of the enemy are not compared in cost-benefit analysis of the lives of our own citizens or military personnel.
If we had to kill 10,000,000 enemies to save one US soldier, morally we ought to do it.
Anything else is a decision to kill US soldiers for the sake of the enemy, which is treason.
I do not know if it's possible to crush Iran's mullocracy, nuclear program, and means to re-estabish either, without a massive (or nuclear) strike at this point. If not, then we had better strike them before they strike us.
Posted by: Bearster at November 15, 2006 03:09 PM (YyTqJ)
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If we had to kill 10,000,000 enemies to save one US soldier, morally we ought to do it.
You, sir, are a filthy, amoral bastard. And you have no idea what the word 'moral' means.
Posted by: legion at November 15, 2006 04:42 PM (3eWKF)
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Legion:
You've slung personal attacks, but failed to make any argument at all.
Posted by: Bearster at November 15, 2006 05:11 PM (YyTqJ)
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Aside from the moral argument, there is also a practical one. By use of "surgical strikes" to remove a dictator and his top staff, we allow the population to preserve the culture that created the dictatorship, and which would re-create it if we didn't occupy it (as in Iraq).
One reason why Germany and Japan did not revert to their previous behavior is that we crushed their will. Broken, utterly defeated, humiliated, with no way to convince themselves that their old behavior "worked", they were ready to make a change.
Posted by: Bearster at November 15, 2006 05:21 PM (YyTqJ)
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OK Bearster, here goes.
Being our enemy, or being another religion, does not remove someone from the realm of humanity. Dehumanizing and demonizing the enemy can make it easier for troops about to go into direct conflict to fight, but when those tactics are used on civilians back home, it cheapens the value of all life. You say:
In a proper morality, the lives of the enemy are not compared in cost-benefit analysis of the lives of our own citizens or military personnel.
If we had to kill 10,000,000 enemies to save one US soldier, morally we ought to do it.
That's not a 'proper morality', Bearster. It's evil. Especially when you have other options besides killng those 10M. I don't think it's a good solution to the situation in Iraq, but if we brought every one of our soldiers home tomorrow, no more would die there. Iraq isn't realistically capable of threatening the US or anyone else, and won't be for decades. Why isn't that a viable option?
Yet you seriously propose a nuclear strike on Iran, something that would kill millions of people, as the most viable option. And rather than even making the limp effort of something like 'you gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet' to defend the deaths of the countless innocent civilians such an act would cause, you go fully into genocide mode - as though any conflict between our culture and another is entirely the fault of the 'others' and their inherently inferior culture.
One reason why Germany and Japan did not revert to their previous behavior is that we crushed their will. Broken, utterly defeated, humiliated, with no way to convince themselves that their old behavior "worked", they were ready to make a change.
And if you actually believe that, you are not merely arrogantly amoral, you're also a complete raving idiot. I pity you, and I fear for the future of both America and the entire human race.
Posted by: legion at November 15, 2006 06:11 PM (3eWKF)
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Bearster-- I'm not sure about Germany, but another big reason Japan was unable to revert is because it was written into their constitution that it's illegal for their SDF (self defense force) to deploy. They had to re-write a part of their constitution recently to allow a unit to deploy to Iraq for humanitarian missions.
Being crushed and humiliated is a perfect breeding ground for someone to step up, give a forlorn country an identity, and have another go at it. Post WWI Germany is a perfect example of this, and the apathy of her neighbors enabled it. I think the main reason that each country didn't revert (or in the case of Japan, be made into a slave colony by the rest of Asia) is because the US took a proactive role in not allowing it to happen. (Japan also didn't have any resources, and again, the rest of Asia would have happily taken their revenge on Japan, maybe making it a worker's paradise, if the US didn't establish a strong presence there.) To assume that people will come to the conclusion (as a nation) that their old behavior simply didn't work and it was time to make a change may be giving them a little too much credit. Plus behavior is inextricably linked with culture, and people aren't real big on forsaking it, particularly in Asia where tradition is so important.
My 2 cents.....A little off topic, and probably totally off base, so take it for what it's worth.
Posted by: paully at November 15, 2006 06:18 PM (yJuX3)
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That's not a 'proper morality', Bearster.
That's precisely the morality calculus Truman employed in deciding to nuke Japan. An est 500,000 US military casualties against a couple of Japanese cities and thousands of civilians.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 15, 2006 06:54 PM (l8HpH)
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Y'all missed my point.
If there is a way to eliminate Iran's capability to wage terror war against the US through its proxies, and to eliminate its capability to develop a nuclear bomb, I am all ears. Let someone propose something feasible.
I say "eliminate" because appeasement is irrational, and there is no kind of persuasion that works on people who are immune to logic.
My point was that if you must wage war, then you owe a moral duty to the poor schmucks you send to fight it. You must promise them: "we will not waste your lives!" This is in addition to the moral duty to protect the lives of innocent American citizens (that's us, by the way).
This means if you can save their lives--or ours--by killing more of the enemy, then you must do that. There is no number that changes this principle. It is not an equation that is "balanced".
The purpose of a response is not to serve a self-defeating notion of "proportion" but to prevent them from doing it again.
If one must wage war, then one must fight utterly to win, to win as swiftly as possible, and with the minimum possible cost to one's own. If one must wage war, then one must do so without hesitation, without half-actions, without partial committment, without mercy.
By the very moral code Legion is espousing here, we're "successful" in Iraq. Our troops are there being sacrificed to protect the lives of Iraqis. Bush feels this is the moral way to wage war. What's wrong with it? Why not send thousands of innocent American military personnel to save tens or hundreds of thousands from death, slavery, or even from poverty??
The perverted moral code of altruism doesn't offer an argument.
Meanwhile, the enemy is laughing at our moral weakness, even as they raise the ante.
Iran, let's not forget, is run by an apocalytpic mass-murdering madman who has convinced me that he wouldn't mind going to paradise if he could kill us in the process. Do you disagree with this premise, or only with the implication?
We could simply hope he doesn't mean it. But hope is not a plan.
We could try appeasement. Maybe it will work better this time, somehow?
We have one choice. We can either destroy Iran's capacity to wage war, or we can let them raise the ante with nuclear bombs.
P.S. What is monstrously immoral is to have mercy for the enemy, but none for innocents. The gut-wrenching sight of people burning--or jumping--to death from the WTC will be nothing compared to nuclear bomb, or even a dirty bomb, dropped on NY. What if they do it to several cities at the same time?
Posted by: Bearster at November 15, 2006 08:47 PM (YyTqJ)
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This is what I am hoping for. The US will continue with the moral bull as expressed in the threads so far. This will enable and encourage the terrorist or Muslims (same thing) to indeed do somehting terrible such as a nuclear device in New York or one of the other northern cities. That will trigger the economic catastrophy that has been as sure thing with the extraordinary personal and national debt we have. As some point the South will get the idea once again that we can truly be free. We can then make our bid possibly with the assistance of the Muslim world. So we really do win!!
Posted by: David Caskey at November 15, 2006 09:22 PM (6aPuF)
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David, seriously -- up your meds.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 15, 2006 10:22 PM (l8HpH)
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Iraq is a diversion. As the army attacks Iraq, the US gov't erodes rights at home by suspending habeas corpus, stealing private lands, banning books like "America Deceived" from Amazon, rigging elections, conducting warrantless wiretaps and starting 2 illegal wars based on lies. Soon, another US false-flag operation will occur (sinking of an Aircraft Carrier) and the US will invade Iran, (on behalf of Israel).
Final link (before Google Books bends to gov't demands and censors the title):
http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?&isbn=0-595-38523-0
Posted by: 5th of November at November 16, 2006 06:32 AM (F7awS)
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Purple,
Unfortunately, I feel I have to be serious on this. It sounds like sarcasm or trying to be funny, but look at the reality of the situation.
The US is like a stack of dominos. One thing that pushes us in the wrong direction and it will fall apart. So, if terrorist preformed a nuclear explosion in NY then the financal situation will begin to unravel. With the debt that all owe, this will not take much to elicit a severe depression.
Now, many of us do not feel exactly "free". Several sections such as the Pacific region already desire to bust up the Union. You will argue that we are the most free nation on earth and that may be true, but if you compare our situation to that before 1860, we are basically slaves. I am one of the 10% that actually pay taxes in the US and am beginning to be very mad at local, state and federal governments wanting more. This is one small example, I could provide an endless list of ways the government infringes on us (try getting on a plane). As such, the South represents a section that has interest and goals that do not go parallel with the NE of the US that seems to constantly tell us what to do. So ultimately the South will go its own way.
Moralize about the use of weapons of mass distruction all you want. If you want this country to survive as is, you better start killing and getting control of alot more Muslims. As for me, I am looking to a brighter future.
Posted by: David Caskey at November 16, 2006 09:48 AM (xxoPt)
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My point was that if you must wage war, then you owe a moral duty to the poor schmucks you send to fight it. You must promise them: "we will not waste your lives!" This is in addition to the moral duty to protect the lives of innocent American citizens (that's us, by the way).
This means if you can save their lives--or ours--by killing more of the enemy, then you must do that. There is no number that changes this principle. It is not an equation that is "balanced".
OK, that's something I can agree completely with - the context of actual conflict. I can't agree with something like that as a pre-emptive or preventative move, however, and I didn't gather that focus from your earlier comments. By that standard, FWIW, I believe the atom bombs on Japan were actually justified - we were already at war & committed to victory; I don't see the same level of threat (yet) from Iran.
Why is that important? Why let Iran get even closer to the brink? Because of exactly what they (and NK also) are doing now - saber rattling. Right now, we're in the process of trying things below the level of open warfare to get Iran off their current course. Yes, appeasement is pointless, but there are other tools we can use. They may not work against Iran, but I believe we are morally obligated to try them before the 'nuclear option'. The problem, with Bush's preventative war policy (and what it sounds to me lilke you're proposing) is that the _next_ country that nears nuclear capability _won't_ make any noise about it. They'll just drop it on whichever enemy they feel poses the greatest threat to them at the time. It actually makes us _more_ likely to be struck by nuclear terrorism, not less.
P.S. What is monstrously immoral is to have mercy for the enemy, but none for innocents. The gut-wrenching sight of people burning--or jumping--to death from the WTC will be nothing compared to nuclear bomb, or even a dirty bomb, dropped on NY. What if they do it to several cities at the same time?
You do remember, don't you, that Iraq (and IIRC Iran also) had _nothing_ to do with that attack? And that the US is doing just about nothing to locate the guy who did? And that the leading support structure for that asshat was (and possibly still is) Saudi Arabia? Just sayin'...
Posted by: legion at November 16, 2006 10:21 AM (3eWKF)
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I strongly disagree with the estimation here for the loss of lives if Iran has a nuclear bomb. It is maybe 5% of the estimation in my circles.
Imagine you were the Iranian president, and you have just been handed with the nuclear weapon. If you fire at Israel now, Israel fires back, and the whole thing is over. You are no longer the Middle East super power you have been for the past years, you loose your chance in bringing to the coming of doomsday, which the Iranian regime is with no doubt committed to, and you are just left to leak your wounds while Israel is leaking its wounds, and maybe the second half of the Jewish people of the Diaspora rejoin to educate their kids to reestablish Israel once the soil and the water are recovered, which according to the Iranian view is a very likely script, seeing that they feel it is the world's guilt over the first holocaust, that had enabled the establishment of the first Israel.
It would be much more reasonable of them, in view of their agenda, to:
1. Cooperate with global spread terror groups that can take their nuclear bombs to places they either can't reach by missiles or they would prefer to use terror cells rather than missiles, because missiles would have a sender address to retaliate, while bombs activated by terror cells would not. Note that for that purpose it would be much better for them to use Sunni terror groups than Hizb-Allah for example, because the harder it is to prove the source to retaliate, the more time they are going to gain to go on with their agenda of bringing back the Imam. Nevertheless, it is reasonable to assume they would use whatever terror group that has the "best" proven ability to strike successfully, and maximize the ability of the nuclear bombs, by hitting major targets.
2. Strike as many incapable of retaliating targets, before they strike Israel. Once they strike Israel it would be over for them. Our stated policy is that a strike by Iran would not mean 10-15 millions deaths in Iran, but the destruction of the whole of Iran for 300 years. You can count on it being true, and Iran knows that as well. So why not start with making sure that "betrayers" in the Muslim world end their way, and that only "pure" Muslim practicing societies for the satisfaction of Allah are left to great the Imam? You would be surprised of how crucial that is on their agenda. It is not the charismatic call that can unite Muslims behind them, not like "Death to Israel", but it is not less important to them, and they have been practicing the promotion of that agenda with no less efforts than the agenda of sabotaging any chance of peace with Israel and its neighbors. Take into consideration that the very existence of Israel makes them the leaders of so many Muslims and justifies what ever they do in the eyes of their public. So they won't loose this "joker" until they are ready and have made all the arrangements for the coming of the second Imam to feet their view of how the world should look greeting it.
And this brings me to another major cause of deaths the estimation you have shown does not take under consideration. Because Muslim states that are considered to be traitors in the eyes of Iran, such as Saudi-Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, and all of the states that have cooperated with the west, or fought Shiites in their own regimes, know exactly how serious Iran's threat to them. That's why a nuclear bomb to Iran by no means can only mean that. It with no doubt means a hysterical race towards that bomb among those countries, and then among the whole Middle East, by any regime that has oil to fund those aspirations. That means that a whole out nuclear war is no longer a question of "if" but rather a question of "when". It also means that to include only Israel's and Iran's casualties in the estimations for the loss of lives due to a nuclear Iran is in my (and others in Israel) humble opinion completely mistaken.
Posted by: an Israeli at November 16, 2006 07:19 PM (7A241)
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Ouch
It's been barely a week since the 2006 midterms, and
WaPo Ruth Marcus is wasting no time on judging Nancy Pelosi's leadership thus far.
Her grade for Pelosi for stating she would "lead the most honest, most open and most ethical Congress in history," and then backing John "Abscam" Murtha for House majority leader?
Not Good.
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Well, considering that Pelosi isn't even actually _leading_ Congress yet, and considering that when she does, she'll be following what will likely go down in history as the least honest, least open, and least ethical Congress in history, I'd have to say Marcus' hackery has blinded her to the mote in her own eye...
Posted by: legion at November 15, 2006 10:51 AM (3eWKF)
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How odd, whenever I quote WaPo I'm immediately slapped down on the basis of the Post being part of the MSM cabal. I guess you have to know which parts are pieces of the sinister plot and which pieces are real news.
Posted by: Earl at November 15, 2006 05:40 PM (4+fzl)
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I guess you have to know which parts are pieces of the sinister plot and which pieces are real news.
Easy enough to distinguish them. Just look at the timing.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 15, 2006 06:48 PM (l8HpH)
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Bela Pelosi and the opening credits to her upcoming horror show....she and her cronies elevate Dick Turban (our troops are Nazi equivalents), the doddering and addle-brained Wrongway Peter Peachfuzz ...Frank Murkthought...and the oily, slippery, and nefarious Oilseed Hastings...to positions of prominence right out of the chute.
I guess the "New Left" has a slogan after all. Vote for us and we'll lead you with... a wimp, a simp and a pimp.
Posted by: cfbleachers at November 15, 2006 08:13 PM (V56h2)
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Don't Worry - Michael "I'm Ugly" Moore, in an open letter to conservatives, has promised that the new DemoNcrat leadership and their groupies will rout out all corruption from Congress - starting with their own! I'm guessing that Harry Reid is up first.....
Posted by: Specter at November 15, 2006 10:42 PM (ybfXM)
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Legion isn't much on history is he/she? How many have gone to jail in the past 5 years vs how many went to jail during Slick Willie's regime? If you're going to scream thief, make sure you don't have a stolen wallet in your own pocket. Always remember, anyone that will lie to you, will steal from you, and I haven't known of an honest democrat in 50 years.
This is going to be the most comical two years in history. The life long corrupt cleaning up corruption. Coyote's guarding the hen house.
Posted by: Scrapiron at November 16, 2006 01:42 AM (Eodj2)
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has promised that...will rout out all corruption
I won't be holding my breath waiting for his slickly edited tell all expose when that doesn't happen ;->
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 16, 2006 03:35 AM (l8HpH)
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The Potomac's Not River In Egypt
Harold Meyerson has a particularly odd editorial posted this morning in the
Washington Post, insisting conservatives are in denial:
On their journey through the stages of grief, conservatives don't yet seem to have gotten past denial.
Republicans may have lost, conservatives argue, but only because they misplaced their ideology. "[T]hey were punished not for pursuing but for forgetting conservatism," George F. Will, conservatism's most trenchant champion, wrote on this page last week.
Their mortal sin, in this gospel, was their abandonment of fiscal prudence.
They doffed their green eyeshades and gushed red ink. "The greatest scandal in Washington, D.C., is runaway federal spending," said Indiana Rep. Mike Pence, the true-blue conservative who is challenging Ohio's John Boehner for the post of House Republican leader.
Holding conservatism blameless for last week's Republican debacle may stiffen conservative spines, but the very idea is the product of mushy conservative brains unwilling to acknowledge the obvious: that conservatism has never been more ascendant than during George Bush's presidency; that the Republican Party over the past six years moved well to the right of the American people on social, economic and foreign policy; and that on Nov. 7 the American people chose a more pragmatic course.
I bed to differ with Mr. Meyerson, on several points. First, while there are doubtlessly some conservatives in denial about why Republicans lost, it seems most of those reside inside the Beltway. From the Rove-influenced push for an ineffectual Mel Martinez to be RNC Chair, to an all-but-rigged push to install the same failed leadership into power on Capital Hill, it is the Beltway drones that seem to be in denial over why Republicans lost, not the rank and file conservatives in the rest of the country.
Denial is a stage of grief that most conservatives that I have come in contact with (either online or in person) skipped right past. In fact, most conservatives seem to have been rather pragmatic and have avoided the grief process altogether.
If you want to see an acute application of political grief for comparison, I suggest you instead look to prominent liberal personalities after the 2000 and 2004 elections.
Michael Moore was so depressed by Bush's 2004 win that he couldn't get out of bed for three days. Actor Vincent "Private Pyle" D'Onofrio "Lost his ****" and had to be treated by paramedics because of Bush's 2004 win.
Pearl Jam's Eddie Vedder, actor Alec Baldwin, former Kennedy Press Secretary Pierre Salinger and film director Robert Altman were just some of the liberal voices who were confirmed to have said they would leave the United States because of electoral results, though Salinger was the only one to follow through on his "threat."
Some liberal in past elections were so distraught over past elections that new psychological conditions were the result, with the serious Post Election Selection Trauma and satirical Bush Derangement Syndrome as a result.
No, Mr. Meyerson, most conservatives outside the Beltway were disappointed with the results of the election, but we understood why we lost.
The nation is unhappy with the way the War in Iraq is being fought. The nation is disgusted with greed in the form of pork-barrel politics symbolized by the Bridge to Nowhere, and runaway federal spending a Republican Congress and President supported. The nation was dismayed with how slowly and ineffectively the federal government reacted in the wake of Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, and by corruption both financial and sexual as personified by Jack Abramoff and Mark Foley. Immigration and stem cell controversies also alienated voters.
As for Meyerson's asinine statement, "that conservatism has never been more ascendant than during George Bush's presidency" I have but a simple two-word reply: Ronald Reagan.
But for all that Mr. Meyerson got wrong in his fundamental misunderstanding of the conservative mind, he did get something right when he concluded that Republicans ran a 2006 campaign "devoid of new ideas."
Hopefully, the conservative base will be able to reverse that course in elections to come.
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On this, CY, I completely agree. The W era has had practically nothing to do with conservatism, with the possible exception of social conservatism.
Posted by: legion at November 15, 2006 10:55 AM (3eWKF)
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November 14, 2006
Time Magazine Complicit In Fauxtography Scandal
Heads should roll.
Early on in the Lebanon war, there was a photograph published by both U.S. News and World Report and Time Magazine, which according to captions published with the picture was of a burning Israeli jet, shot down by Hezbullah missiles. The blogosphere was quick to call B.S. on the photo, and the widely-circulated story was that the photograph was actually that of a tire dump.
Well, it seems that the photographer responsible for taking the photograph, Bruno Stevens, has finally sounded off on Lightstalkers, explaining the photograph and telling the true story of how things ended up the way they did. He also notes that the site was not a tire dump, but was rather an old Lebanese Army base that had either been hit by an Israeli jet, or by a misfired Hezbullah rocket (both possibilites he appears to have recounted in his original captions). The key point that Bruno makes is that, while he sent in a fairly balanced caption to accompany the photograph, the wire services rewrote the caption completely, changing the pertinent facts surrounding the story. Where have we heard that before?
As Ace notes in his post on the subject:
That makes three representations thusfar by Time:
1) Hezbollah did not score a huge victory by shooting down an IAF jet.
2) The target was clearly legitimate.
3) Not only was this a legitimate Hezbollah target, it was parked on a Lebanese Army base, demonstrating cooperation between the Lebanese Government -- depicted as an innocent and abused third-party to this conflict by the media.
To compound the magazine's duplicity, Time refused to run a different picture that showed a Hezbollah rocket launcher disguised as a civilian truck on a Lebanese Army base.
To put it mildly, Time editors mislead their readers, and while I'm not a lawyer, this journalistic malpractice would certainly seem to meet at least a layman's understanding of fraud, if not something worse.
Why would Time do something so risky, so dishonest, so stupid?
As I wrote back in August, follow the money:
Story after story, photo after photo, dead and distraught Lebanese civilians clog the mediastream, building a false, grim montage of a war in which primarily Israeli soldiers and Lebanese civilians die.
This is not the whole truth of this war, but a partial truth developed through complacency and an apparent willful disregard to report the facts on the ground. Instead of seeking and publishing the entire truth, newsrooms have decided that they will publish the stories and images framed by foreign, mostly Arab Muslim reporters, even though their own cultural interests in these events are a clear and undeniable conflict of interest precluding even a pretense of unbiased reporting.
This is beyond bias, it is a reckless and willful disregard for reporting the whole truth in favor of reporting "news" that is easier to sell in a larger world media market. The casualty statistics are there, but the media sticks to the narrative they have helped create because while honest reporting is a goal, the business of the media business is business.
If it "bleeds it leads," but only if what leads sells advertising. News consumers around the world consume the news that more closely matches their perceptions of how reality should be, and stories critical of Hezbollah, stories that show their failures and deaths, don't sell in world population featuring 1.3 billion Muslims that hope for Israel's demise, or at the very best are indifferent to their fate. It is anti-Semitism by cashflow, a pocketbook jihad that buys the media's silence.
And yet, the photographer cannot be blamed here; it was the Time photo editors that made the willful decision to run a dishonest caption at odds with the description provided by the photographer, while suppressing another photo that shows apparent collusion between the Lebanese Army and Hezbollah.
This goes well beyond a mistake. Time has made the willful decision to slant, cover, and conceal news on behalf of a terrorist organization.
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If it was only about money, it would still be wholly indefensible, unethical, amoral...but American media news outlets, who have a de facto public trust in their hands...would at least be simply greedy when misleading, defrauding and slanting the news against America, her allies (especially Israel) Jews and Christians, conservatives, Republicans and anyone who doesn't agree with their far leftist agenda.
However, it is now impossible to accept that their aim isn't far more nefarious. Is Evan Thomas related to Norman Thomas? Are they now acting as the frontline for propagandizing against America, her allies (especially Israel) and actively engaging in the intentional weakening of our form of government?
It's a serious question that nobody wants to raise for fear of being marginalized. It won't gain traction, because there is no political party strong enough to seriously investigate it.
And it will eventually be our downfall.
Posted by: cf bleachers at November 14, 2006 05:24 PM (V56h2)
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It just moved another mag to the check out line. Now everyone should know there is less truth in Time than most supermarket tabloids.
Posted by: Scrapiron at November 14, 2006 05:47 PM (0Co69)
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Man, where is all the accountability that my mom worked so hard to terrify me with? Turns out I was right, I CAN do whatever I want! Who knew?
Posted by: The Fastest Squirrel at November 14, 2006 05:59 PM (z62e3)
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Time needs to carry a Surgeon General's warning that reading it might make you a retard.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 14, 2006 07:08 PM (l8HpH)
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That's pretty bad. It's almost as egregious as the U.S. military planting pro-American propaganda in Iraqi newspapers and trying to pass it off as the work of authentic Iraqi journalists.
Posted by: Arbotreeist at November 14, 2006 09:38 PM (N8M1W)
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Time's not even subtle about their bias anymore. When checking out at Walgreens I noticed they had a special Time biased Middle East magazine with intro by Jimmy Carter, who just yesterday released an anti-Israel book with blatantly biased and inflammatory title Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid."
Posted by: Cindy at November 15, 2006 02:18 PM (iKM6r)
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It's almost as egregious as the U.S. military planting pro-American propaganda in Iraqi newspapers
Of course you can show how those paid for stories were in fact false right?
What? I didn't think so...because nobody ever accused them of being false, only paid for.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 16, 2006 12:28 AM (l8HpH)
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What? I didn't think so...because nobody ever accused them of being false, only paid for.
Kinda like Republican leaders.
Posted by: Arbotreeist at November 16, 2006 09:31 PM (N8M1W)
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Murtha: Fellow Dems "Swift-Boating Me"
Yeah, not an
exact quote, but pretty much
on the mark:
The race to be the No. 2 House Democratic leader turned nasty Tuesday, with challenger Rep. John Murtha accusing opponents of "swift-boat style attacks" that hark back to his days being investigated in the FBI's 1980 Abscam sting.
Murtha won endorsement Monday from Nancy Pelosi, who is widely expected to be the House speaker. But Murtha is opposed by some liberals who say they are not happy with the Pennsylvania lawmaker's pro-gun and anti-abortion record. Others say Pelosi took a wrong turn in backing Murtha over her current deputy Rep. Steny Hoyer because Murtha's record is marred by ethics questions of the type Pelosi pledged to clean up in Congress.
"I am disconcerted that some are making headlines by resorting to unfounded allegations that occurred 26 years ago. I thought we were above this type of swift-boating attack. This is not how we restore integrity and civility to the United States Congress," Murtha said of the ample press coverage of his link to Abscam and more recent negotiations he made as ranking Democrat on the Defense Appropriations Committee.
To date, Murtha hasn't yet accused his fellow Democrats of torpedoing his nomination "in cold blood."
Yet.
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What? I thought that all the Dems were in the same house and that they all played oh so nicely together. LOL. Love to see self-disintegration. Couldn't happen to two nicer people - Murtha and Pelosi. LOL. And to think she promised to clean up corruption in the House. Gawwwd....
Posted by: Specter at November 14, 2006 09:57 PM (ybfXM)
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Unfortunately for him, fundamental character flaws like being prone to bribery, never get cured like a common cold.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 15, 2006 12:08 AM (l8HpH)
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Pu: Something Wicked...
Iran can quit lying about their intent to use their nuclear program for
peaceful means:
International Atomic Energy experts have found unexplained plutonium and enriched uranium traces in a nuclear waste facility in Iran and have asked Tehran for an explanation, an IAEA report said Tuesday.
The report prepared for next week's meeting of the 35-nation IAEA also faulted Tehran for not cooperating with the agency's attempts to investigate suspicious aspects of Iran's nuclear program that have lead to fears it might be interested in developing nuclear arms. As well, the four-page paper made available to The Associated Press confirmed that Iran continues uranium enrichment experiments in defiance of the U.N. Security Council.
Plutonium is an important by-product of the fuel cycle in operating nuclear reactors, producing almost a third of a nuclear power plant's energy.
The problem? Plutonium (Pu) should not logically exist outside of nuclear power production, and Iran does not yet have that capability. Bushehr is to have Iran's first production reactor, but it is still under construction.
That would seem to indicate that either Iran is importing plutonium, or that it has an undeclared reactor, which is admittedly far less likely, but technically possible. In any event, both the plutonium and enriched uranium found at the waste site may serve to push Israel closer to mounting a pre-emptive strike against Iran, which would in turn likely re-ignite Hezbollah's rocket attacks against Israel from Lebanon, putting UNFIL's "peacekeeping" forces in the middle, precisely where Hezbollah would prefer them.
It looks like a wider war in the Middle East may be coming sooner rather than later, and I'm increasingly convinced there is very little that anyone can do to stop it.
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Question.
Was Ahmadinejad's announcement today that he'll have nuclear fuel by March 1} just an announcement he made to get on the West's nerves?
2) His way of saying "Give up on sanctions and on trying to stop me, it's a done deal already."
3) His way of saying "I've got nuclear capability so it's time to give in to my influence in Lebanon and to start dealing with me.
Posted by: CAL at November 14, 2006 02:04 PM (2KcnN)
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Somebody explain why this thing is not going to end with either:
-A big, bright orange ball.
-A re-shuffled balance of power and ass-kissing of hairy middle-eastern hams to the maximum degree.
Dan Patterson
Arrogant Infidel
Posted by: Dan Patterson at November 14, 2006 02:32 PM (GWOjN)
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And what will the UN do about Iran's breaking of agreements? Absolutely nothing. Isn't it about time we shed ourselves of this corrupt, do-nothing organization that spends most of its time criticizing the U.S. and little time actually responding to crisis issues?
Get US out of the UN!!!
Posted by: Todd at November 14, 2006 03:41 PM (Q7kOY)
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Todd,
The UN is only as effective as it's member states' cooperation. We (the US) are as much a part of the problem as other nations (our veto of the resolution condemning a recent attack by Israel is a perfect example). Getting the US out of the UN is not realistic or even a good idea, unless you want to diminish our own power and influence.
Furthermore, the UN is not a collective defense agency, and is only partially a collective security organization. This means that the UN is tasked with many things other than waging war... I suggest you learn about those other roles (post-conflict resolution is one example) before spouting off about how bad the UN is.
Posted by: ME at November 14, 2006 04:05 PM (ZhBBw)
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there is certainly nothing that can be done if you don't talk to them. this foreign policy is childish to say the least. it's like michael jordan...you can't stop him, you can only hope to contain him. bushes lack of a foreign policy has managed to contain nothing -- it has only succeeded in speeding n. korea and iran towards nuclear armament. maybe 41 has some more friends that can help him out now that he has f'ed it up so badly.
Posted by: jay k. at November 14, 2006 04:26 PM (yu9pS)
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Yankee, you are overlooking an couple of essential facts: Russia is building the plant for the Iranians, and they have agreed to supply the Iranians with the needed nuclear fuel and the known date for completion was sometime in 2006. So, it's very possible they are much farther along than is publically being acknowledge by all sides. That's my suspicion.
On February 27, 2005, and after a one-day delay, Iran and Russia finally signed an agreement regarding providing the needed nuclear fuel for the Bushehr facility. Under the terms of the aggreement, Russia would provide nuclear fuel to Iran, who would in turn return the spent fuel back to Russia.
Also, since the late 90's there have been a number of contradictory statements from both the Russians and the Iranians as to the eventual online status of the plant,(a combination of delays and intentional diversion no doubt) the general consensus is that the plant would be near completion in 2006. (Thus the increased activity against it by the US and others.) A statement was released to this affect:
On 11 December 2004 Speaker of the Russian Federation Council Sergei Mironov stated that the first unit of the Bushehr nuclear power plant will be put into commission in 2006. He made the remarks during an official visit to Iran. "Moscow has a principled position on Russian-Iranian nuclear energy cooperation. Iran as a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty has the right to use nuclear energy for peaceful purposes," the speaker stressed.
Considering the tnese atmosphere, it would not be surprising to learn that the plant is indeed in testing phase as the spent fuel would attest to..
And, this statement isn't entirely correct:
Plutonium (Pu) should not logically exist outside of nuclear power production...
Pu exists in spent fuel rods, which are removed from the inner system and stored outside of the nuclear facility.
What "traces" means, is not clear from the article you cite, but I'd say there is the real chance that spent rods are being moved about in order to hide the possible fact that the plant is online, or in testing phase and soon to be online.
First two quotes from Global Security.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iran/bushehr.htm
Posted by: David @ SP at November 14, 2006 05:42 PM (cdQ8J)
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there is certainly nothing that can be done if you don't talk to them.
Jay, I've been hearing alot about this suggestion to talk with Iran. Even Tony Blair's been saying it. But truthfully it's mindboggling to me. The Iranians are dead set in getting the bomb. They are trying to make an unholy alliance with Al Qaeda. (to quote the "Confederate Yankee" a couple of posts back) They've got too much control in Lebanon. Ahminajed (or however you spell his name) has talked about "spreading the message of martydom worldwide". (those were pretty close to the words he used) What exactly is talking with him going to do? Do you think talking with him will make him relinquish all that delicious stuff? I fail to understand this suggestion. Call me an over reactionary person if you want, but I'm dumbfounded.
Posted by: cal at November 14, 2006 06:03 PM (2KcnN)
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Cal,
There's nothing to be dumbfounded about. The mindset of Islam in the Middle East is pretty simple. Take over the world for Islam. That's it! No big secret. They just love this Liberal Horseshit attitude of we just need to talk and understand them, then they will just roll over like a good dog so we can rub their belly. Then we'll join hands and skip down the road singing Kum bi ya and the world we be great again without the evil conservatives in power.
Wake up braindead brainwashed Liberals. You can't deal with these people rationally. They hate us because we (the West) have freedom. They have hated the infidel west for many many years. I worked in the Middle east for years and saw it first hand. All this started back in the 70s. The US government blew it years ago. Both Dems and Repubs. Now we have a real mess to deal with. Look what happened to Lebanon. It was just the beginning.
JM
Posted by: JM at November 14, 2006 09:50 PM (4Y0kE)
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And on the UN. I've seen first hand their wonderful corrupt influence on the world. They are about as useful as an underwater hair dryer. I second the Get US out of the un!
Posted by: JM at November 14, 2006 09:52 PM (4Y0kE)
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Someone tell the 12th Imam to get the hell out of the well, and do something! I just do not understand how anyone can pray to a false moon god in a well.
ROPMA.
Posted by: Leatherneck at November 14, 2006 10:26 PM (D2g/j)
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JM,
If muslims cannot be dealt with rationally, then what do you suppose Bush thought he would accomplish by invading Iraq?
They hate us because we have freedom? That's incredibly simplistic, especially given that they have no real idea as to what freedom as we know it is. I bet they hate us far more for decades of meddling in Middle Eastern geopolitics. America supported Saddam for years. America supported the overthrow of Iran's democratically elected government in 1953. America always sides with Israel, even when they are the ones who misbehave.
Years of careless Middle East policy has given the Arab world plenty of reasons to hate us. Add a good dose of radical Islam and here we are.
Soon enough, Iran will have the bomb. What do you propose that America (or anybody else) do about it? If you have any good ideas, write 'em down and send them to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., Washington DC. I hear Bush is open to new ideas these days...
Enjoy!
Posted by: Tom Pain at November 15, 2006 12:03 AM (YFISO)
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Soon enough, Iran will have the bomb. What do you propose that America (or anybody else) do about it?
Do what JFK did. Blockade and threaten a nuclear war.
It worked.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 15, 2006 01:18 AM (l8HpH)
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Purple,
Cuba is an island in our back yard. How the hell would we isolate Iran? If we did, what would that mean to global oil markets and, subsequently, our own economy?
It might very well boil down to mutually assured destuction, just like the cold war. That is, if somebody doesn't get the bright idea to volunteer all his fellow Iranians for martyrdom.
Posted by: Tom Pain at November 15, 2006 01:51 AM (RJ5ME)
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Tom,
For some reason you assume I back Bush. That is not true at all! The Western Leaders really donÂ’t want to recognize what they are dealing with. Or that is their plan for gaining control of the worldÂ’s population. Choose your own poison.
They hated us long before we were born. This goes back to the founding of the cult called Islam. I studied the Koran many years ago because I actually was interested in converting to Islam and becoming a citizen of Saudi Arabia. The more I studied Islam the more I realized it was rooted in violence, hate, intolerance, and conquest. These are the things taught to children in school. The infidels must be conquered and Islam must prevail as the only true belief system on earth. Unlike most other belief systems Islam is their total way of life in the end. In Saudi for instance they have two groups of police driving around patrolling. One group is the regular traffic police and the other is the religious police. I dealt with their culture in their country because the money was very good and I knew that I could escape the insanity and return to the West. Now Islam is coming to the West with one purpose. To destroy the West force Islam on the rest of the world. ItÂ’s crystal clear to me, but I don't look at things with multi colored glasses from the 60s. Its not any polictical party in the West that brings on their hatred. And they do hate us because our freedom does not allow their belief system to be inforced. I talked first hand with people that survived the conquest of Lebanon by Islam. And that is exactly what it was.
JM
Posted by: JM at November 15, 2006 08:16 AM (VopGr)
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The Jews learned first-hand to believe a man that says he wants to kill you - what difference the reason? I don't believe we need to acquire that lesson first-hand as well.
Posted by: Cindi at November 15, 2006 09:01 AM (asVsU)
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Cuba is an island in our back yard. How the hell would we isolate Iran?
Are they gonna ship all that oil out overland in trucks? Don't think so. The strait of Hormuz is how wide again compared to the coastline of Cuba? Take a rough guess in terms of miles needing to be cordoned off. By my ruler, Iran looks a lot easier to choke off than Cuba ever was. Perhaps you can explain in detail why I'm wrong. Please be specific.
If we did, what would that mean to global oil markets and, subsequently, our own economy?
Oh, so we should let Iran nuke someone because it would hurt economically to stop them. Good logic there. If FDR had used such logic, all of Europe would be speaking German right now.
This is the first time I've ever seen a leftist make the argument that we should allow certified loons to nuke people because stopping it might be somehow "inconvenient".
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 16, 2006 12:38 AM (l8HpH)
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Viva, Las Vegas
Hey, we've got our
own show:
The first and only tradeshow, conference, and media event dedicated to promoting the dynamic industry of blogging and new media. If you are currently blogging, vlogging, podcasting, producing some other form of new media content, thinking about joining the exciting industry of new media or just want to know what this whole blogging phenomena is all about then you need to be at BlogWorld.
The inaugural event will take place in Las Vegas November 8th and 9th at the Las Vegas Convention Center with an exclusive corporate only conference November 7th.
The show floor will feature an abundance of products and services designed to help bloggers and new media entrepreneurs improve the look and functionality of their blogs, increase their readership, and monetize their blog. Bloggers will find suppliers like Broadband ISP's, Web hosting companies, blog publishing software, podcasting services, RSS syndication services, new media advertising networks, news readers, aggregators, computer hardware and software, widgets, badges and plug-ins, Wi-Fi services, affiliate program partners, and much much more!
Thousands of bloggers and other geeks let loose on Sin City... what could go wrong?
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Aside from this?
http://patterico.com/2006/11/11/5377/lap-dancing-illegal-in-vegas/
Posted by: Ric James at November 14, 2006 11:24 AM (X4IDg)
2
The place survived Comdex for many years, it's doubtful you can do more harm.
Posted by: Jeff at November 14, 2006 11:46 AM (yiMNP)
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Can't We All Just Get Along?
If you happen to be al Qaeda and Iran, the answer may be
yes:
Iran is trying to form an unholy alliance with al-Qa'eda by grooming a new generation of leaders to take over from Osama bin Laden, The Daily Telegraph can reveal.
Western intelligence officials say the Iranians are determined to take advantage of bin Laden's declining health to promote senior officials who are known to be friendly to Teheran.
[snip]
The Iranians want Saif al-Adel, a 46-year-old former colonel in Egypt's special forces, to be the organisation's number three.
Al-Adel was formerly bin Laden's head of security, and was named on the FBI's 22 most wanted list after September 11 for his alleged involvement in terror attacks against US targets in Somalia and Africa in the 1990s. He has been living in a Revolutionary Guard guest house in Teheran since fleeing from Afghanistan in late 2001.
Alarm over al-Qa'eda deepened yesterday with a Foreign Office warning that the group was determined to acquire the technology to carry out a nuclear attack on the West.
A senior Foreign Office official said that the terrorists were trawling the world for the materials and know-how to mount an attack using nuclear, chemical or biological weapons.
The Baker/SecDef nominee Gates Commission seems primed to tell us that they want to negotiate with Iran and Syria, currently the two leading state sponsors of Islamic terrorism, who in addition to supporting the insurgency in Iraq, are apparently also plotting a coup in Lebanon while rearming Hezbollah and Hamas. This new and as-yet unconfirmed report by the Telegraph now sees Iran trying to further engage al Qaeda to the point of hoping to influence its leadership.
Iran, a nation ruled by the apocalyptic Hojjatieh sect, is pursuing nuclear weapons, having already developed and/or purchased long-ranged missiles and MIRV warheads only used for delivering nuclear warheads.
al Qaeda, a major terrorist group that has already successfully struck inside the U.S once and failed on numerous other attempts, has been trying to acquire nuclear weapons since the 1990s. Is anyone on this smug commission watching where this is headed?
al Qaeda: "Hey, your nuclear weapons development got on my terrorism!"
Iran: "Your terrorism got on my nuclear weapons development!"
Both: "DEATH TO AMERICA!"
It's like a Reese's Peanutbutter Cup from Hell, and the Baker Commission is trying to tell the world that it is safe to swallow.
Sorry boys, but I'm not buying it.
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It seems to me that this is the indication that we have lost the war. Much as we did with Vietnam and thanks to the politicians and MSM.
Posted by: David Caskey at November 14, 2006 12:38 PM (xxoPt)
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Crusade Over: Jesus Surrenders
The blogger that styles himself "Gen. JC Christian, patriot,"
surrendered intellectually early this morning, collapsing under the unbearable weight of his own ponderous
ad hominem argument.
Apparently his disaffected Finchiness is highly disturbed--perhaps even gob-smacked--at this post, where I replicated an email I sent to the President, asking him to commit fully to winning the war in Iraq.
The good General was apparently unable to logically explain why we should engage in the rapid retreat favored by so many on the far left. Trying to explain an anti-humanitarian position that would lead to a far wider civil war or even genocide is obviously too difficult a task for a cynical faux diety. Much better to trot out the "chickenhawk" meme again instead.
We all know that one by now, don't we?
Essentially, the argument is that anyone who favors military action should not be taken seriously unless they themselves are willing to go and join the military. But the messenger is not the message, dear General, and this tired dismissal falls apart miserably when poked with even the smallest twig of logic.
Do you really want to make the argument, General, that you cannot comment upon or have an opinion on any subject in which you aren't a paid professional?
That would certainly clear up much of the war-related controversy in the blogosphere and the media. Very few liberals have the professional background General Christian would require for commenting on war-related issues, including the good General himself. Only soldiers would be able to discuss the war, and they overwhelmingly support continuing the mission.
General Christian's post wasn't meant to be fair, just dismissive, and it should hardly be surprising that someone so intellectually lazy would be caught in his own poorly-constructed trap.
Update: As so many of my liberal "guests" can't seem to keep a civil tongue in their heads, comments are now closed.
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Please see this post by Glenn Greenwald which explains the difference between a civilian hawk and a chickenhawk: http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/07/what-makes-someone-chicken-hawk.html
Posted by: moioci at November 14, 2006 02:32 AM (juIjC)
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There ought to be a Godwin's Law corollary that anyone referring to Glenn Greenwald for support loses immediately. Can't you make up a losing argument on your own?
Posted by: Lee at November 14, 2006 03:32 AM (G3kW7)
3
Greenwald is kinda right about this. It's not necessarily cowardly to oppose a war, if there isn't a chance you'd be taking part in it in the first place. However, if you oppose the war on terror, it may mean you're afraid of the truth.
Posted by: Anonymous for now at November 14, 2006 04:37 AM (RMHg5)
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Lee: "There ought to be a Godwin's Law corollary that anyone referring to Glenn Greenwald for support loses immediately."
(nice demonstration of apparent ignorance of what Godwin's Law actually says, btw) There should not be such a rule, for the simple reason that ad hominem attack is no replacement for substantive criticism.
Anonymous, I'm curious as to what truth I may be afraid of. As far as I'm concerned, If you support the war on terror, it may mean you've been sold a bill of goods.
Posted by: moioci at November 14, 2006 04:47 AM (Jwpjg)
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moioci: The truth is that we can't co-exist with the Islamic world. It'd be nice if they abandoned the teachings of Qur'an, but that's not going to happen any time soon.
Posted by: Anonymous for now at November 14, 2006 05:08 AM (RMHg5)
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Essentially, the argument is that anyone who favors military action should not be taken seriously unless they themselves are willing to go and join the military. But the messenger is not the message…
-- CY
So… you're not willing to join the military?
How come?
Posted by: LGF at November 14, 2006 07:23 AM (5J8Ix)
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The goal of Operation Yellow Elephant is mathmatically
unworkable. We simply do not need everyone who supports the war over there. I estimated if we had every elligible man and woman over there who backed the war, we'd have 23 million troops on the ground.
Posted by: Adam Graham at November 14, 2006 08:44 AM (uJT9y)
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"Kevin Blackthorne" (posting as LGF),
I tired to send you an email, but it appears that you didn't bother to use a valid email address, so I'll post my response here instead.
* * *
Not that it matters, Kevin, but I intended to join the Marines after college as an officer, but after wrecking my knees bad enough to require surgery my sophomore year and having a significant amount of damaged cartilage removed, my hopes of joining this nation's military (or for that matter, even playing soccer again) were wrecked as well. Even when I went to a recruiter to join the New York Army National Guard (101 Cav, 1 Bn Co D, an M-1 Abrams tank unit located where I was living in Newburgh, New York) in the winter of 2004, the recruiter told me that getting an age waiver wouldn't be too hard, but getting over me knee problems was impossible, even with the slightly less stringent physical requirements of Guard and Reserve forces.
But that really doesn't matter, does it? The chickenhawk meme isn't about intellectual honesty or integrity, but is an attempt to silence those you disagree with using a specific kind of logical fallacy, the
Ad hominem tu quoque.
For the chickenhawk meme to be valid, that "only those who would serve in the military have any right to support the war," you would also have to believe in a "chickendove" meme, that those who did not actively oppose the war, by volunteering to be "human shields" or the equivalent, have also have lost their right to speak out against the war. Interestingly enough, that meme is rarely if ever supported by top moderate or conservative bloggers, except as used to mock the intellectual dishonesty of the chickenhawk meme as applied by our critics such as the good General and equivalents.
The chickenhawk meme is shallow, self-serving, and anti-democratic. As someone who appears to be intelligent enough to string a series of words together into a coherent sentence, I would hope you'd be able to figure that out on your own.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 14, 2006 09:18 AM (g5Nba)
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…you would also have to believe in a "chickendove" meme, that those who did not actively oppose the war, by volunteering to be "human shields" or the equivalent, have also have lost their right to speak out against the war.
Sorry to hear about your weak knees. You could always serve as a human shield for the troops, you know. As additional armor on a humvee, or an IED detonator in a Yugo, or a yellow helmeted sniper decoy, you wouldn't need much leg strength.
Posted by: LGF at November 14, 2006 09:46 AM (5J8Ix)
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Pretty convenient for you, those bad knees, eh CV? This war has left, and will continue to leave, corpses strewn all over the place, but yours won't be one of them, so what do you care?
I wonder what it's like to be so indifferent to the suffering and death of other people.
Posted by: Union Hillbilly at November 14, 2006 09:47 AM (62NkU)
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Is a Right-winger actually chastising someone for purportedly using an ad hominem attack? That makes the General's post even funnier. That commenter's in this post dismiss someone for siting an argument by Glenn Greenwald is a bonus chuckle. That's intellectual laziness.
The "chickenhawk meme" is not, as you state, "only those who would serve in the military have any right to support the war." It is why, if you are of able body, would you not support in actions and deeds that which you support with words?
I'm sorry you didn't have the opportunity to serve. As a member of the New York National Guard let me say we would have welcomed you. I think it would have been an eye opening experience for you, and may have changed your outlook on the world a bit.
P.S. No more of the Cut and Run meme, please, after making such a strong argument against it here, I wouldn't want anyone accusing you of intellectual dishonesty or intellectual laziness.
Posted by: Fred at November 14, 2006 10:06 AM (jSBbA)
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Ragging the warhawks with the chickenhawk label is perfectly appropriate because for decades the right has espoused the false premise that those without military service were unqualified or suspect with respect to determining matters of war and peace. (A position, among many, that would horrify the founders.)
Since 2004, having smeared a decorated war hero and lionized a draft-dodging AWOL airman, the right can no longer pursue that line.
Calling you out as chickenhawks is a delicious case of hoisting you on your own petard!
Posted by: Kit at November 14, 2006 10:12 AM (YcUKP)
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If they can't fight then our weak-kneed sisters can send fabulous e-mails to the commander-in-chief. This is the least they can do. You go girl!
Posted by: donniej at November 14, 2006 10:25 AM (LRZxO)
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>where I replicated an email I sent to the President
Brilliant use of replication! You go, YC! Tell JC to stuff it under his beret!
Posted by: numberfivepencil at November 14, 2006 10:31 AM (0AqCS)
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Hey Yank-
I've been reading you for a while, and I say hell yeah!
I read the post by the "JC" guy, and hey, is he serious? Did you enlist in the armed forces?
I say again, Sir - HELL YEAH! That is serious business there, pal. Congratualtions are certainly order, and if you're ever in my neck of the woods, the beers are on me. It's about time to shut these "yellow Elephant" commies up, by having our own quit the "talking", and get in and start FIRING AWAY at America's enemies.
Sorry, I'm too old, but I say to you young fellas, under the age of 40 - LET'S GO! FOLLOW THE YANK, into America's MILITARY FORCES!
Bless you Yank.
ANd God Speed.
D.
Posted by: D. at November 14, 2006 11:35 AM (s2c2z)
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CY, your knees may keep you from serving, but I don't think you should cheer yourself on for turning out a letter which urges the President to keep sending Americans to their death in a misbegotten and mismanaged war.
He can't make it work. You can't make it work. Bush senior can't make it work. The cost of not making it work is the suffering of hundreds of thousands of families here and in Iraq, and a failed state in sectarian turmoil.
The glorious 101st Fighting Keyboarders has rooted for a geopolitical disaster. At some time in the next six months, I expect the object of your idolatry to declare "victory" at the same time as he beats a hasty retreat, because his daddy and his daddy's buddies tell him to.
Dubya is so... over.
Posted by: Persistent Vegetarian at November 14, 2006 11:36 AM (2W6Xl)
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Underlying that chickenhawk meme is the age-old racist/elitist mentality, in which the well-fed, well-heeled, white college republican is content with the less privileged, less white doing battle for him.
Truly, Mr. Owens could still do his part as a civilian contractor in the region- I don't think driving a truck or serving chow requires good knees.
Further, opposition to the fiasco in Iraq does not equal some sort of terrorist appeasement or an objection, in principle, to the war on terror. On the contrary, it conveys a desire to fight terrorism shrewdly, competently, seriously. These false dichotomies that the neo-cons make their living on- the "with us/against us" or
"sycophant/evildoer", sound good but signify only the intellectual laziness of those who use them.
Iraq isn't the War on Terror. Powell's Pottery Barn rule still applies when your unattended, idiot child- or president- wrecks the joint playing Army. A redeployment of troops to the North, where they would stand on call, while the Sunnis and Shias worked it out for themselves, ready to intervene in the case of ethnic cleansing, is about as good as it's likely to get.
Posted by: raindogzilla at November 14, 2006 11:53 AM (UnpHM)
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If the War is the most important thing ever, if Western Civilization hangs in the balance, if the Armed Forces have to spend $$$millions on advertising to recruit the troops, if the Army is making quota by lowering standards (the percentage of those enlisting in the lowest mental categories CAT IIIB-IV is increasing), and if you believe this and are of age (up to 42, now) then why haven't you enlisted?
What "other priorities" could be more important?
Posted by: observer 5 at November 14, 2006 12:14 PM (Z/ze5)
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It isn't rational to require different qualifications for different sides of the same question. The mirror of the chickenhawk meme is that if you have no military service you don't have the qualifications to decide war is not necessary. Wouldn't you want a real doctor to tell you surgery is NOT necessary?
Read any of these "Why aren't YOU..." posts in the whiny voice of ten year old on the playground. These are not serious people.
Posted by: Lee at November 14, 2006 12:53 PM (G3kW7)
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The Chicken Hawk label perfectly fits some Iraq war supporters...doesn't fit other supporters...but it does fit some.
There are people for the war ...
And then there are people FOR THE WAR!
These are the people violently against anyone that disagrees with them. They often use pejoratives like "Libs" and "Dems" and if you disagree with them about the war they will tell you that you should leave America. "Some' of these people are Chickenhawks...at least the ones that could go and fight the war.
Of course besides the "Get out of the country" crowd there are the legacy Chickenhawks from Vietnam...many of the people that pushed us into Iraq, Bush, Chenney, Ashcroft, Limbaugh, Gingrich etc. All men that COULD have gone to Vietnam to fight in a war they supported but would NOT by choice. Again they are all for war when they or thier family will not pay a price.
(and don't even start with the Bush served crap...he didn't, his unit had other politician's sons and Pro-football players and everyone knew the deal was the unit was a haven from the draft...that's not even a question.) Bush's "Service" was in fact to AVOID war and serve himself...NOT to serve the country.
The last group for the Chickenhawk lable are many of the College Republicans that zealously support the war but will not serve. Funny that these guys want to call anti-war people "terrorist sympathizers" and "cowards' etc. yet get very upset when they get accuratly labled a Chickenhawk.
Considering what this war is doing to many American families, and what it's costing the US in borrowed money and international prestiege I think these young Conservatives can toughen up and take the label they so richly deserve.
So if the shoe fits wear it...if it doesn't shrug it off.
Bobo
Posted by: Bobo at November 14, 2006 02:30 PM (Yx9if)
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November 13, 2006
Another Chickenhawk Goes to War
Bill Arado-something-or-other has decided that he has to see the war for himself, and
went and got embedded.
If you could, drop the guy a coin or two, and please tell him that this is not the kind of body armor he needs, no matter what Ace may say.
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Hey, that's the armor I bought! I believe it's rated "level .0000000001".
Thanks for the link.
Posted by: Bill from INDC at November 13, 2006 06:18 PM (J7M2/)
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The comments to "Of Sterner Stuff" - even the chance to write a comment - have been eliminated. Is that all you have to defend your position?
Posted by: he at November 13, 2006 07:11 PM (LMqPB)
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A Conservative Plan for Iraq
Anyone who questions the lack of a realistic and comprehensive Iraq strategy is labeled a friend of fascism by the Republican leadership. House Majority Leader John Boehner (R-OH) recently said, “I wonder if [Democrats] are more interested in protecting the terrorists than protecting the American people.” Republicans are paralyzed with the fear of being thought ineffective on national security and the war.
Meanwhile, the Democratic leadership cannot seem to accept that—regardless of how we got there—we are in Iraq. They have not made a convincing case that an arbitrary phased or date-certain troop withdrawal is in the best long-term interest of the United States. Rather, they seem to think that withdrawal will undo the decision to have gone to war. Rubbing President Bush’s nose in Iraq’s difficulties is also a priority.
This political food fight is stifling the desperately needed public discussion about a meaningful resolution to the fire fight. Most Americans know Iraq is going badly. And they know the best path lies somewhere between “stay the course” and “get out now”.
Some Truths
1) Iraq is having a civil war between the Sunnis and Shiites. The Kurds will certainly join, if attacked. It may not look like a civil war, because they donÂ’t have tanks, helicopters, and infantry; but they are fighting with what they have.
2) Vast oil revenues are a significant factor behind the fighting. Yes, there are religious and cultural differences—but concerns about how the oil revenue will be split among the three groups make the problem worse.
3) Most Iraqis support partitioning Iraq into Shiite, Sunni, and Kurdish regions. (Their current arrangement resulted from a pen stroke during the British occupation, not some organic alignment.)
4) Most citizens of the Middle East who support groups that kill and terrorize civilians—such as Hezbollah, Hamas, or al Qaeda—in part because of their aggressive stance against Israel and the United States, but also because they provide much needed social services, such as building schools.
5) Both Republican and Democratic administrations have spent decades doing business with the tyrants who run the Middle East in exchange for oil and cheap labor. This has been the one of the rallying calls of Bin Laden and Hezbollah—that we support tyrants who abuse people for profits. In fact, our latest trade deals with Oman and Jordan actually promote child and slave labor; it’s so bad the State Department had to issue warnings about rampant child trafficking in those countries.
6) Iran is using the instability in Iraq to enhance its political stature in the region. Leaving Iraq without a government that can stand up to Iran would be very destabilizing to the region and the world.
From the U.S. perspective, this is all mostly about energy. As things stand, a serious oil supply disruption would devastate our economy, threaten our security, and jeopardize our ability to provide for our children.
New Directions
Success in Iraq and the Middle East in general requires us to work in three areas simultaneously: (1) fostering a more stable Middle East region, including Iraq, (2) pursuing alternative sources of oil, and (3) developing alternatives to oil. To these ends we must:
1) Insure that the oil revenues are fairly and transparently split among all three groups: Shiite, Sunni, and Kurds based on population.
2) Allow each group to have a much stronger role in self government by creating three virtually-autonomous regions. Forcing a united Iraq down their throats is not working. Our military would then be there in support a solution that people want, rather than one they are resisting.
3) Become a genuine force for positive change, thus denying extremist groups much of their leverage. Driving a fair two-state solution to the Israeli/Palestinian problem should be our first priority. We should also engage in projects that both help the average Middle Easterner and Americans, such as supporting schools that are an alternative to the ones that teach hate and recruit terrorists. We should also stop participating in trade deals that promote child and slave labor by insisting on deals that include livable wages and basic labor rights.
4) Declare a Marshal Plan to end our Middle Eastern energy dependency with a compromise between exploring for new sources, reducing consumption, and developing of alternative energies. For example, we should re-establish normal relations with Cuba so we can beat China to CubaÂ’s off-shore oil. We should also redirect existing tax breaks for Big Oil into loan guarantees for alternative energy companies.
Once we no longer need so much oil from the Middle East, we can begin winning over its people by using our oil purchases to reward positive and peaceful behavior from their leaders. This would ultimately reduce tensions and encourage prosperity in the region.
We will have to live with the threat of Islamic radical terrorism forever; but these solutions are a start to reducing the threat. Both parties have to put politics aside and put together an honest and reasonable plan that the American understand.
Posted by: John Konop at November 13, 2006 07:45 PM (LuO/f)
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Sinking The Admiral
Matt Drudge has a typically bombastic headline running, CHINA SUB STALKS USS KITTY HAWK, which links to a Bill Gertz article in today's Washington Times that is only slightly less dramatic:
A Chinese submarine stalked a U.S. aircraft carrier battle group in the Pacific last month and surfaced within firing range of its torpedoes and missiles before being detected, The Washington Times has learned.
The surprise encounter highlights China's continuing efforts to prepare for a future conflict with the U.S., despite Pentagon efforts to try to boost relations with Beijing's communist-ruled military.
The submarine encounter with the USS Kitty Hawk and its accompanying warships also is an embarrassment to the commander of U.S. forces in the Pacific, Adm. William J. Fallon, who is engaged in an ambitious military exchange program with China aimed at improving relations between the two nations' militaries.
Disclosure of the incident comes as Adm. Gary Roughead, commander of the U.S. Navy's Pacific Fleet, is making his first visit to China. The four-star admiral was scheduled to meet senior Chinese military leaders during the weeklong visit, which began over the weekend.
According to the defense officials, the Chinese Song-class diesel-powered attack submarine shadowed the Kitty Hawk undetected and surfaced within five miles of the carrier Oct. 26.
The surfaced submarine was spotted by a routine surveillance flight by one of the carrier group's planes.
The Kitty Hawk battle group includes an attack submarine and anti-submarine helicopters that are charged with protecting the warships from submarine attack.
According to the officials, the submarine is equipped with Russian-made wake-homing torpedoes and anti-ship cruise missiles.
The Kitty Hawk and several other warships were deployed in ocean waters near Okinawa at the time, as part of a routine fall deployment program. The officials said Chinese submarines rarely have operated in deep water far from Chinese shores or shadowed U.S. vessels.
A Pacific Command spokesman declined to comment on the incident, saying details were classified. Pentagon spokesmen also declined to comment.
If you're looking for me to debunk this story I'm sorry to disappoint you. I simply can't, other than to quibble over the details.
A submarine that tops out at 22 knots cannot overtake or as Gertz states, "stalk" a carrier battle group that cruises somewhere between 27-32 knots. What the Chinese can do is plot a course for the battle group, and place a submarine in position in advance of it, and wait for the battle group to steam to that location, as did the German U-boat wolfpacks of World War II.
The Song was likely vectored into position by PLAN (the People's Liberation Army Navy... I know, don't ask), and waited under minimal electric power until the American battle group closed in on their position. It was an ambush, not a stalking, and considering the stealth of this breed of diesel/electrics, it is possible that if the battle group was unprepared, it could run into such an ambush, despite my earlier thoughts to the contrary left on Hot Air's post on the subject.
No, the story here is not necessarily the apparent Chinese success in a cat and mouse game that has been playing out between submarines and surface ships for decades, but the fact that this story was leaked to Gertz, and that it was leaked now. Gertz himself provides the reason for the leak:
The submarine encounter with the USS Kitty Hawk and its accompanying warships also is an embarrassment to the commander of U.S. forces in the Pacific, Adm. William J. Fallon, who is engaged in an ambitious military exchange program with China aimed at improving relations between the two nations' militaries.
Disclosure of the incident comes as Adm. Gary Roughead, commander of the U.S. Navy's Pacific Fleet, is making his first visit to China. The four-star admiral was scheduled to meet senior Chinese military leaders during the weeklong visit, which began over the weekend.
Move over New York Times. The Old Gray Lady may lead in publishing information that hurts U.S. interests, but the Department of Defense has been known to selectively leak on occasion, and this leak seems to have the military exchange program with the Chinese clearly in the crosshairs.
The exchange program, which dates to 2002 is said to be extremely one-sided. Chinese military officers and technicians have been invited to see U.S. military exercises and "sensitive" facilities, and China has refused to reciprocate. In addition, Admiral Fallon has restricted U.S efforts to conduct intelligence-gathering operations against China, leading us to be even more in the dark than we should be.
The Song-class submarine may have targeted Admiral Fallon's carrier group, but by leaking the story to Bill Gertz when they did, it is clearly the intention of the Department of Defense to sink Fallon and a program that they consider to be a risk to national security.
Damn the torpedoes. There's a dangerous admiral to be sunk.
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When I first read this when Drudge had it, that was the first thing I thought. This wasn't about the sub, it was about this apparent treasonous maniac Fallon.
I wonder if we weren't pinging actively either -- save the whales and all that...
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 13, 2006 09:02 PM (l8HpH)
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Good. That guy's a prick.
Trust me, I worked for him--- one of the ships he's in charge of, anyway, and you would not believe how people-stupid that guy and/or the folks he works are.
Posted by: Sailorette at November 14, 2006 03:54 AM (42oGy)
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Of Sterner Stuff
The following letter was emailed to President George W. Bush at the White House this morning, asking him to rededicate America to winning the War on Terror.
Send your own comments to the President via email comments@whitehouse.gov, over the telephone at 202-456-1111, or via fax at 202-456-2461.
Dear President Bush,
"These are the times that try menÂ’s souls."
So Thomas Paine began a series of pamphlets in late 1776 called The American Crisis, and in which he continued, "The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot may, in this crisis, shrink from the service of his country; but he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of man and woman."
All around you lies a nation demoralized, yet not yet defeated, waiting upon your steadying hand to find a solution to the problems of modern-day Mesopotamia.
Shia, Sunni, and Kurd slaughter each other along with our soldiers in what seems to be an unending campaign of bloodshed. This war is meant to sap the spirit and soul of not just one country, but legions of the faithful of many languages and creeds, across national and international borders.
Indeed, many in this land have lost hope in the noble ideas that founded this nation, and now clamor for a retreat to our own shores from those who would strike at us here as they have in the past. These well-meaning but misguided souls seek for no more blood to be spilled, for no more lives to be lost in a brutal, grinding war that sees our national will and our thirst for peace and justice challenged.
But we are made of sterner stuff, and what they do not understand is what you must know in your heart to be true, and that is simply this; there can be no peace in this war or this world without victory.
We live in a time where cynicism lords over self-sacrifice, where absent a call to rise above the mundane, the backbenchers and the critics are given voice by the simple absence of dedicated call to duty.
Early on in this great campaign you spoke to and for all of us when you said, "Great tragedy has come to us, and we are meeting it with the best that is in our country, with courage and concern for others because this is America. This is who we are."
Our soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines have heard your call, and answered to it magnificently.
Yet it seems in this dark hour that many Americans have forgotten who we are and what God set us upon this Earth to do. I firmly believe that you, a man of great Christian faith and conviction, were elected not to serve just the United States, but GodÂ’s will in spreading to the dark corners of the world both hope and freedom. It is for these two things that American and Iraqi soldiers rise every morning in a struggle that sometimes seems insurmountable, against a foe both wicked and depraved.
We must succeed, Mr. President.
It is my heartfelt conviction that God put us upon this Earth to strike out against those who would subjugate, oppress and terrorize those who should be free into an uneasy silence. This silence that will only be broken by further explosions and cries from the wounded and dying if we chose this time and this date to retreat. A retreat from Iraq, however it is phrased, is a victory for the forces of Islamic terrorism.
We must draw that "line in the sand, " here, and now, from which will not retreat.
I ask you to do what only you can, and that is to commit American totally to victory in Iraq. History has shown us that wars are not won with half measures, but with an overwhelming commitment of both manpower and conviction.
I beseech you to commit our reserves to the fight in Iraq, as many tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of soldiers that the mission requires, in order to break the will and the bodies of those who fight for chaos and tyranny.
There have been many who have called Iraq "another Vietnam," but what they do not realize is that Iraq can be a Vietnam for the forces of terrorism for which they cannot withdraw without a resounding defeat. They have committed their all—their ideology, their material, and their manpower—to driving our alliance with the common man and woman in Iraq asunder. We must not fail them, or else, we will fail ourselves.
Should those who fight for freedom yield to those who fight for chaos, oppression, and tyranny? I say, emphatically, that the answer to all terrorists of every stripe must be "No."
Mr. President, I ask that you rededicate yourself and our nation to winning the war against terrorism currently being waged in Iraq. We fight not just for their freedoms, but our own.
Sincerely and Respectfully,
Bob Owens
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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The guy doesn't even read news papers...you expect him to read this?
Posted by: Fred at November 13, 2006 01:13 PM (jSBbA)
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Maybe if you sent it in graphic format (ie a comic) the Prez might be able to respond...
Posted by: Ashley at November 13, 2006 03:17 PM (hX6TT)
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The guy doesn't even read news papers...you expect him to read this?
Maybe if you sent it in graphic format (ie a comic) the Prez might be able to respond...
There's only one language Reid, Pelosi and the rest of that gang are capable of reading - that would be the language of Chamberlain -"Appeasement" -
Good Luck Dems!
Posted by: Me at November 13, 2006 03:53 PM (2KcnN)
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"All around you lies a nation demoralized, yet not yet defeated, waiting upon your steadying hand to find a solution to the problems ..."
- Why are you waiting for the same hand that has guided you into this mess? - The hand that was only too willing to act according to the interests of the neocons, Halliburton & Co (not of your nation!)? Don't you remember how arrogant and ignorant the Bush-Administration was in 2002, when they were warned not to invade Iraque? (Cf. the foreign ministers of Germany and France told them exactly what would happen (Re-read the speeches!) - and it happened: Not "Mission accomplished", but a new playing-field and a boost for terrorism! - But at least you gave those whimps what for: You now eat "Freedom Fries", don't you?)
"This war is meant to sap the spirit and soul of not just one country, but legions of the faithful of many languages and creeds, across national and international borders."
- How true, how true! But it is not only the terror - it is the way this war was started and the way it is being fought. Where is the sympathy we all felt for America after 9/11? - Lied away by the Bush, Rumsfeld, ... - tortured away in Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay, and dozens of secret CIA-prisons all over the world - riddled by American firepower.
"... many Americans have forgotten who we are and what God set us upon this Earth to do. ... you (GWB!) ... were elected not to serve just the United States, but GodÂ’s will ..."
Outstanding, magnificent arrogance and blasphemy!
He
Posted by: he at November 13, 2006 04:12 PM (E2nyV)
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November 12, 2006
Gates Nomination a Recipe for Disaster
Says the
American Thinker (via
Instapundit):
The Baker commission seems to be doing a lot more than just re-thinking Iraq. It appears to be copiously leaking a Vietnam-type cut-and-run plan that will leave the Gulf far more dangerous than it is now. The Vietnam model looks like a “face-saving” retreat by the United States—just like that one that left Vietnam a Stalinist prison state with tens of thousands of boat people fleeing and dying, and next door in Cambodia, two or three million dead at the hands of Pol Pot.
BakerÂ’s press leaks seem designed to test public reaction to the cut-and-run plan.
President Bush's nominee to replace Don Rumsfeld as Secretary of Defense is Robert Gates, a survivor of the Iran-Contra scandal who helped draft the Baker cut-and-run strategy.
Let's be very clear on who Robert Gates is; he is part of the problem, a leftover of the failed policies of realpolitik that helped create modern terrorism. His return to public service is a recipe for losing no just in Iraq, but in the larger War on Terror. He has as much business being Secretary of Defense as Harriet Miers had being on the Supreme Court.
Norman Podhoretz captured the failures of the Baker/Gates generation quite clearly as they led the run from terrorism in the Reagan and George H.W. Bush administrations:
In April 1983, Hizbullah—an Islamic terrorist organization nourished by Iran and Syria—sent a suicide bomber to explode his truck in front of the American embassy in Beirut, Lebanon. Sixty-three employees, among them the Middle East CIA director, were killed and another 120 wounded. But Reagan sat still.
Six months later, in October 1983, another Hizbullah suicide bomber blew up an American barracks in the Beirut airport, killing 241 U.S. Marines in their sleep and wounding another 81. This time Reagan signed off on plans for a retaliatory blow, but he then allowed his Secretary of Defense, Caspar Weinberger, to cancel it (because it might damage our relations with the Arab world, of which Weinberger was always tenderly solicitous). Shortly thereafter, the President pulled the Marines out of Lebanon.
Having cut and run in Lebanon in October, Reagan again remained passive in December, when the American embassy in Kuwait was bombed. Nor did he hit back when, hard upon the withdrawal of the American Marines from Beirut, the CIA station chief there, William Buckley, was kidnapped by Hizbullah and then murdered. Buckley was the fourth American to be kidnapped in Beirut, and many more suffered the same fate between 1982 and 1992 (though not all died or were killed in captivity).
These kidnappings were apparently what led Reagan, who had sworn that he would never negotiate with terrorists, to make an unacknowledged deal with Iran, involving the trading of arms for hostages. But whereas the Iranians were paid off handsomely in the coin of nearly 1,500 antitank missiles (some of them sent at our request through Israel), all we got in exchange were three American hostages—not to mention the disruptive and damaging Iran-contra scandal.
In September 1984, six months after the murder of Buckley, the U.S. embassy annex near Beirut was hit by yet another truck bomb (also traced to Hizbullah). Again Reagan sat still.
What realpolitik accomplished under Reagan was to build the confidence of terrorists. This same "do nothing" approach was continued under the first Bush Administration, thanks once again to political strategies favored both then and now by men like James Baker and Secretary-designate Robert Gates.
Robert Gates had a hand--never firmly proven, but never really in doubt--in the disasterous plan to attempt to negotiate with terrorism in Iran-Contra.
He also was part of the brainrust, err, braintrust, that urged Iraqi Shia to rebel again Saddam Hussein, only to stand by and watch when as many as 100,000 Shia were killed when they failed to support the rebellion they instigated in 1991.
Robert Gates has no business being the Secretary of Defense during a war on terrorism. He did far too much to help create the current problem to be relied upon to fix it.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
Hizbullah and Isreal are mad.
Ian Pundit thinks he's a Mossaid agent.
Posted by: Doh at November 12, 2006 03:15 PM (DXyrz)
2
right on" gates is a scowcrftian baker-brzeshinski status quoitst, and he deserves to be voted DOWN.
rice isd a MAJOR disapopointment too. SHE SHE RESIGN.
i'd like to see Bolton at State, and Tommy Franks at Defense.
and I'd like us to elect a REAL consrevative and a real hawk in 2008, and notr another wimpy dove like George W Bush.
Posted by: reliapundit at November 12, 2006 03:26 PM (8JsCh)
Posted by: reliapundit at November 12, 2006 03:28 PM (8JsCh)
4
>>Norman Podhoretz captured the failures of the Baker/Gates generation quite clearly as they led the run from terrorism in the Reagan and George H.W. Bush administrations."
Poddy usually requires a little translation from the original Likud patois, but his message is alway the same: kill the Arabs.
Posted by: skip at November 12, 2006 04:48 PM (JxU2K)
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This is no time to start pointing fingers.
Posted by: Charles Edward Frith at November 12, 2006 05:35 PM (fuc2r)
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As if Bush the Younger had advanced us against the terrorists. Is he going to tell us about the secret plan to end the war that was put out before the election?
Sadly, since we got our asses in this mess without a plan to get out, we may have to beat a hasty retreat like in Vietnam. The neo-cons who got us in have hit a wall in Iraq and aren't getting anywhere there. Does anybody have a plan that stands a chance in hell of working? By not setting a time table for withdrawl Bush is defacto staying the course to complete failure.
Posted by: jwberrie at November 12, 2006 05:45 PM (5HYWF)
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With the fumbling, bumbling press conference the day after the election and the firing of Rumsfeld, I am getting a vision of Helicopters on the roof of the Al Rashid Hotel. I fear the next two years will be nothing but one investigation after accusation and another investigation.
And the troops once again will take the brunt of the hit. It is a shame that a country like ours is not allowed to win a war...And Rumsfeld is going to be Indicted for War Crimes ? What kind of sickness has infected this country ? What in the hell are we suppose to do with these captured terrorists, give them a kiss and a pat on the ass and send them on their way. So they can attack some other American target ?
Posted by: MarkT at November 12, 2006 08:25 PM (YadGF)
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I'll not Skip that you have to result to ad-hominem attacks and can't refute Pod.
Considering that Argentina finally charged Khamenei (you know, the "moderate") with killing 300 Argentinian Jews in the 94 bombings along with Hezbollah and the Iranian intelligence service, the Likud position that negotiating with Muslims is folly because as Ahmadinejad says, "we will kill Jews everywhere" has a lot of sense.
What do you propose to do in order to forestall Iranian nukes going off in US cities?
Hezbollah gives them deniability and they've used it to kill Americans in the past [Freeh charged Clinton, Sandy Burglar, and Albright with obstructing his Khobar Towers investigation because they were afraid of having to do something about Hezbollah/Iran]
How do you propose to deter Iran from nuking us if we run away from Iraq? How can we SHOW them the folly of attacking us when they've openly vowed to "blow up the White House?"
Posted by: Jim Rockford at November 12, 2006 08:41 PM (4878o)
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After all that was sacrificed and all the hope that was fostered, these establishment appeasment monkeys have a plan for national disgrace.
Sometimes I just want to shake their damned teeth loose. Would that help them listen to reason?
The next several weeks will foretell the election of '08; if enough disgust is shown because of the donks and enough anger is uncovered because of the trunks' ineptness, there is a chance for Constituitional leadership. If the donks get their hands around border security and make the all the moms feel safe and sound with socialized health care, it's another Dole For President (McCain) debacle and Hillary in '08.
With that we see the end. Law by judicial fiat, governmental power overstepping private rights, GNP decline, interest rate increases, etc.
Stop them before they hurt us some more.
Dan Patterson
Arrogant Infidel
Posted by: Dan Patterson at November 12, 2006 08:52 PM (GWOjN)
10
My
initial hit on Gates is the same as Pod and others: the ISG is a bad place to be in.
That said, I
reviewed his part in a gabfest last year and his statements are at extreme odds with the ISG. If he does NOT explicitly say something along the lines: 'I appreciate the work of the ISG. Respectfully, I disagree.' then he will have problems coming across as his 'own man' and not a stand in for Baker and the Elder Bush.
I have trouble squaring the ISG position of Syria and Iran as *wanting a stabile Iraq* and this from Mr. Gates: "Robert Gates: I think an Iraqi government secure enough to invite us to leave we can count as a victory. My concern is that we have so little patience. We're so accustomed to watching television and we get irritated if it's a two-part series."
And then later:"We all hope that it will be quick. That in a year or two the -- this government in Iraq will be secure enough that they will be able to invite us to leave and we can do so, leaving behind us a government that can survive and that will be very different from what preceded it.
Iraq is one of the oldest countries in the world, that in its thousands of years of history never known democracy.
We're irritated because the Russians haven't figured out democracy in 15 years. There are still all these problems going on in Russia, a country that in its thousand years of history has never known democracy.
We're still working on it after 300 years."
He later states that he personally believes *any* talks with North Korea will fail...
So, what exactly is going on with this? I can no longer say that he is a pawn of the ISG, but he also does have that past to deal with.
If he will stick by his pronouncements, divorce himself from the ISG publicly, then I am willing to give him the benefit of ONE doubt.
Some of the rest of his foreign policy stuff I do not like, but that is Condi's realm, not his. He must clearly state that he is there to do the job of ensuring the strength of the Armed Forces, enacting the President's policy and NO ONE ELSES. And for all his Beirut problems, he *does* know that you cannot get terrorists 'the old fashioned way' having tried and failed. The INTEL component has been the #1 disconnect for the past 30 years between the CIA and the DoD, if not longer. John Negroponte is having a hard time getting the Agency off the dime, and an old leader in a New role coming to them and saying:'Get with the program and prove you are worth what we are paying you.' could do a world of good.
Coming in with Bush Family Rolodex Syndrome is not good, nor is being in the ISG. I notice the ISG does *not* put out 'minority reports'. How very Cold War, lock-step of them. And it is the Cold War and most of the 20th century thinking that now has to be jettisoned. I don't know if any of the Administration are finally ready to do that... but I am willing to let Mr. Gates have his say and demonstrate that he is no one's pawn and he is there because of his *ability* and that he has learned from his *mistakes*.
That can only come from him and not the tea leaves.
Posted by: ajacksonian at November 12, 2006 10:03 PM (VLjJI)
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Would somebody please explain to me what it will look like if the United States "wins the war in Iraq?"
We knew what it would look like if we won World War II: the Germans and the Japanese would surrender. They did; the war was over.
Assuming we stay the course, what, precisely, will the end of that course look like?
Posted by: Doc Washboard at November 12, 2006 10:56 PM (BUxjn)
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Assuming we stay the course, what, precisely, will the end of that course look like?
Turkey
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 13, 2006 12:23 AM (l8HpH)
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Doc Washboard:
That's the elephant in the room. Polls show that a majority of Iraqis distrust democracy and favor an Islamic government. The Shiites and Sunnis are blowing up eachother's mosques, torturing eachother with drills, and executing eachother with death squads. The Kurds simply want autonomy. It's unfair to ask our troops to solve this problem; there is no military solution.
Posted by: Earl at November 13, 2006 12:51 AM (ZI/Tg)
14
Well shucks, Earl, when they poll the Terrorists and democrats what else would be the results.
For people who don't want democracy I wonder why so many Iraqi people showed up to vote, in 3 elections, almost 70 percent of the population. So I guess it means that the Iraqis really want to be subjugated and hearded like sheep and then led away to a firing squad as Saddam was wont to do. So freedom for all people is not what the donks is all about but rather subjecting people to the status quo as long as total appeasement takes place and the United States is blamed for all the evil in the world, then the donk agenda is fulfilled.
The democrats couldn't get that many votes if they included all the cemetaries in the country were included.
On Drudge, he has repoeted that the donks want to start pulling out troops as soon as six months. Their NOT cut and run strategy, is to cut and run, afterall, NOW there is a real surprise, and the bloodbath that will follow will make Pol Pot(Dickie Durbin's favorite leader) look like a fairy tale.
Posted by: Mark at November 13, 2006 11:28 AM (YadGF)
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It's unfair to ask our troops to solve this problem; there is no military solution.
In a country of ~25M, there's only ~10,000-20,000 hardcore bad guys, and you can't see what the solution is? Damn.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 13, 2006 11:56 AM (l8HpH)
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Purple Avenger:
Battling 20,000 guys mixed in 25 million is a policing operation, not a military one. Our troops are trained in combat, not so much policing and intelligence. Every time they humiliate or accidentally kill somebody, there are several relatives who are pushed that much more to take up arms against our troops. Our troop death rate has stayed steady, so there's no evidence we are reducing the number of the enemy.
Mark:
These guys started the war because of WMD, which turned out completely wrong, then they didn't take responsibility for that, instead they pretended like nation building was what they set out to do from the beginning. I regard nation building as a bunch of crap, and that, like balancing the budget, was one of the things I used to prize about the Republican party.
Then the administration thought they were *done* in 2003. One of the architects, Wolfowitz, said "there's no history of ethnic strife in Iraq." Now you guys are saying it was a war on terrorism all along. But Iraq used was a secular nation, and the terrorists are religious zealots. Oops.
The majority of Iraqis in several polls have said they want the Americans to leave. The majority said they distrust American style democracy, and the fact that 70% of the people voted does not disprove that, as you imply. I didn't say they wanted to be subjugated, you are putting words in my mouth. I won't speak for them. My point was that nation building is always claptrap, but in this case it is especially laughable. Similarly, you are jumping to conclusions saying that Dems don't want freedom for everyone (I'm in Independent by the way). The traditional Republican principle is that we should take care of our own first, and nation building is mushy liberalism. There never has been a democracy formed at the barrel of a gun. So what people want and what is doable are separate issues.
Bush obviously was determined to depose Saddam, but had absolutely no plan or clue about how to take care of the country after he broke it. They expected to be greeted with roses, and were completely surprised and uprepared by the insurgency and looting. Disbanding the army alone cost the lives of many of our troops.
As for a bloodbath if we leave: there's a bloodbath now. At least if we have a timetable, we'll know that we gave it our best shot: you have X months to solidify your police force, X months to set up your government, etc. How else are they to be expected to stand up? Otherwise it's too easy to continue depending on our troops to do their job for them. How long do you suppose the government could depend on our troops? Years and years. It's too easy for them, they've got to be made to stand up, not just told.
Posted by: Earl at November 13, 2006 12:59 PM (ZI/Tg)
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Battling 20,000 guys mixed in 25 million is a policing operation, not a military one.
Go down to your local PD and tell'em you know where a boobytrapped stash of RPG's and C4 is.
Get back to us on how fast they punt to a military EOD unit. I'll wait for your response.
Battling characters like this is EXACTLY what Delta, Seal 6, and host of others have trained for. If you think our military isn't capable of performing intel ops, you are woefully misinformed.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 13, 2006 01:58 PM (l8HpH)
18
We have been neo-conned.
Once again our brave forces try to complete a mission when no one, including the CoC, can explain what the mission really is.
Now we cannot search for a kidnapped trooper because the terrorist/death-squad leader al-Sadr cut a deal to order our troops out of his fiefdom.
If we are not willing to kill the enemy we should pack up and come home, so we don't fill body bags for years to come.
Posted by: save_the_rustbelt at November 13, 2006 02:39 PM (D5MGw)
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Dhimmicretin motto: "Cut, run, and defund."
Vietnamization all over again.
BTW, when was the term WMD redefined to be "stockpiles of nuclear bombs"? When I was a CBR NCO sarin qualified.
Posted by: RRRoark at November 13, 2006 03:10 PM (8u3Sz)
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RRRoark:
David Kay, the man Bush charged to search for WMD, said "We were all wrong about WMD", and he also said that the 500 shells of nerve gas they found were old and less dangerous than stuff under your kitchen sink. Google it if you don't believe me.
It's a pity we didn't win Nam, what with the one country after another falling to the communists like dominoes, right?
Why don't you try leaving clown world every now and then.
Posted by: EArl at November 13, 2006 04:12 PM (ZI/Tg)
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Purple Avenger,
"Battling characters like this is EXACTLY what Delta, Seal 6, and host of others have trained for."
This is *partially* true, the elites are trained in counterinsurgency as well as combat. But the kicker is, what percentage of our troops in Iraq are elite forces?
The average serviceman is trained specifically for combat, not manning checkpoints. This is exactly what hobbled the Israeli army in Lebanon: their troops have been focused on policing, and have lost their edge in conventional combat.
Posted by: Earl at November 13, 2006 04:19 PM (ZI/Tg)
22
150,000 US troops with the best military equipment money can buy (and some it can't) battling 10,000-20,000 hardcore bad guys with rudimentary arms should've been short and sweet. Fact is, this is a fight the US cannot win short of a full-scale reoccupation of Iraq, kow-towing to the "evil" regimes of Iran and Syria, and abandoning the neo-con dreams of remaking the Middle East.
Alternatively the US can betray the Iraqis as it has done before, leaving them to die in their hundreds of thousands after provoking a civil war. After all the Kurds have less than fond memories of US promises of support in 1991.
Either way, the world's sole super power will only have succeeded in proving it's impotence. That is the true legacy of George W. Bush.
Posted by: Gathara at November 14, 2006 07:05 AM (Di3Mi)
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The First (Beheading?) Cut is the Deepest
The Jawa Report is
breaking news:
The Jawa Report has obtained evidence that Yusuf Islam, the artist formerly known as Cat Stevens, was once connected to radical clerics Omar Bakri Mohammed & Sheikh Omar Abdel-Rahman. According to at least one credible source, he was also involved in terrorist financing.
If the Jawas are correct, the hippie that sang "Peace Train" was doing fundraisers for organizations linked to al Qaeda.
Yusuf Islam is supposed to release another albm this month called "An Other Cup," including a cover of a tune called "Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood."
There's a joke in there somewhere.
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Iran Fakes Drone Carrier Footage (Update: Or Not)
I just saw a short clip on Fox News where the Iranian government showed grainy, near-overhead footage of a U.S. aircraft carrier, and claimed this was evidence that an Iranian drone was able penetrate U.S. fleet radar and air cover, a story also covered by
Breitbart.com.
Um... no.
Iran actually made this claim once before back in August (in the video clip above), going as far as say that their drone repeatedly circled the USS Ronald Reagan before it was even noticed, and that the U.S. attempted to shoot down the drone, but failed. Iran, or course, had zero evidence to support that claim.
But the apparent proof that Iran's latest "drone" video is fake may be contained in the footage itself.
The grainy footage shows what is undoubtably the angled deck of a U.S. aircraft carrier, but on that carrier deck are aircraft, including what appears to be a different fighter on the port waist of the deck than the F/A-18s, EA-6s, and E-2Cs one would currently expect on modern U.S. carriers. Could those planes be F-14 Tomcats?
The Iranian's imply their video was taken during military exercises in the past week. The F-14 Tomcat was retired in February. If Iran means to imply that this video was taken during their war games of the past week and the video released does indeed show retired aircraft, it would suggest that Iran was lying.
But Iran wouldn't lie, would they?
Update: Russian news sites are disputing the authenticy of the video.
They should. Expecting that a drone could penetrate the nine ship-mounted radars of a Nimitz-class supercarrier, plus the AWACS radar on the E-2C Hawkeyes it has aloft at all times, plus AEGIS-equipped ships in the carrier group, plus the radar of aircraft flying close air support, and be able to then circle directly above the carrier at an altitude of at least several thousand feet and return in one piece is something that, quite frankly, only an idiot would believe.
Mmmmm... Crow: Not F-14s on the port waist, but almost as large F/A-18Cs, ans clearly shown in this much better video. The angled rudders are a dead giveaway. In other words, the video is not necessarily old footage, though whether or not the U.S. knew of the drone is still up in the air.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
Correct you are; more lies from the Iranian leaders.
Setting aside the fact that this "unmanned plane" would have to penetrate about 3-4 different layers of the world's most secure radar coverage (AEGIS alone makes that highly unlikely), and setting aside the obvious problems with the F-14's on deck (the last carrier Tomcat cruise ended in June) ... just listen to the what the Iranian commander claims:
"[The vessel's] commander ordered all the planes to be removed from the deck of the aircraft carrier." --- this is almost laughable b/c it is so wrong.
If you maybe didn't know, moving that many aircraft requires a HELL OF A LOT OF EFFORT as well as A HELL OF A LOT OF TIME.
There are only two possible reasons why would want to hide your aircraft:
1) you don't want pictures taken of them,
2) you are afraid they will be destroyed/damaged.
1) A drone instantly takes pictures, so there'd be no point to moving them AFTER it is detected ... If that isn't enough to convince you, check out www.navy.mil and see how many pictures of US aircraft you can find; these aren't secret aircraft.
2) Considering the amount of time required to store these below deck, no senior officer would try to protect his aircraft this way ... In fact, LAUNCHING them would make more sense -
a) they could be vectored toward the unidentified aircraft and
b) moving targets would be much harder to hit
I just hope no one believes this propaganda. The sad thing is the Iranian people largely don't like their government and are actually quite receptive to the US ... this is just a bunch of hardliners trying to prove they're tough to their Arab neighbors.
Remember: there will always be those who don't like the guy with the bigger house, nicer car, and hotter wife - regardless of how nice he is ... it's called jealousy, and it's a deadly sin.
Posted by: Dan at November 12, 2006 04:12 PM (0Nf4x)
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The sad thing is the Iranian people largely don't like their government and are actually quite receptive to the US ...
Not really. You Americans like to tell yourselves that, but mostly, the rest of the world thinks you're all fat and stupid.
...with good reason, of course. Still, your child-like approach to geopolitics is awfully charming.
Posted by: The Rest of the World at November 12, 2006 04:22 PM (Gg/qt)
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I believe the two aircraft on the waist catapults are either S-3 Viking ASW planes or EA-6B Prowlers. The Hawkeye on catapult 1 is unmistakable. Many of the aircraft on the forward part of the flight deck are F/A 18s; I can't tell what the aircraft parked aft are because the quality of the video still is so bad.
What gets me thinking this footage is phony is the absence of a ready alert. With tensions with Iran so high, I'd expect the Persian Gulf is considered a potential-combat zone. A Nimitz-class carrier has four catapults. On this carrier, Catapult Two is obstructed by parked planes, and out of the other three, one has a Hawkeye spotted, and two have Prowlers. There don't appear to be any fighters ready to launch. No ready alert in a potential-combat zone?
Posted by: wolfwalker at November 12, 2006 05:27 PM (ksb+f)
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Longer video
here.
Looks like a training mission to me....
Posted by: Eagle1 at November 12, 2006 10:35 PM (uZyVy)
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So what have you established? That Iranians can provide fake multimedia presentations as well as Colin Powell could?
Posted by: pastor maker at November 12, 2006 10:44 PM (3EDQx)
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Tell us,
pastor maker - or should that be
pasture muffin maker - where do
YOU have clear evidence that Colin Powell provided
fake multimedia presentations?
Another blow hard troll in our midst?
Posted by: Retired Spy at November 13, 2006 08:17 AM (Xw2ki)
7
I haven't been able to watch the video yet, but some points:
-The ship in the photo is clearly a Nimitz class.
-Reports saying it was the Reagan are clearly wrong since she was most recently reported off SoCal conducting Carquals:
http://www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=40320
-The Eisenhower is the last Nimitz class in the vicinity, and she was in the Red Sea on Nov 3:
http://www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=40544
CY, in your photo here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/confederateyankee/296010180/in/photostream/
...I will opine those are in fact Super Hornets and not F-14s. Tomcats alwys appear as a shrp "traingle" when spotted on deck and the "Rhino" tail feathers are evident in the above photo.
On a side note, on the first day of the Marine landing in lebanon in August 1982 the Israelis had a drone airborne over the port. I was aboard the DDG which had the job of maintaining the air picture. Not unitl I saw a cover of a photo taken from that UAV some months later -it had a date/time stamp which showed I was on watch when it was taken- that any of us were aware it was ever there...
Posted by: sid at November 13, 2006 10:52 AM (cAFEP)
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Fixed for clarity. It was an AvWeek cover I saw the photo on...
On a side note, on the first day of the Marine landing in lebanon in August 1982 the Israelis had a drone airborne over the port. I was aboard the DDG which had the job of maintaining the air picture. Not unitl I saw an Aviation Week cover of a photo taken from that UAV some months later -it had a date/time stamp which showed I was on watch when it was taken- that any of us were aware it was ever there...
Posted by: sid at November 13, 2006 11:13 AM (cAFEP)
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A complete video is available here:
http://video dot google dot com/videogvp/IraniandronespingUSa.gvp?docid=-324294841727623684
Some observations:
1. The hull number which is prominently painted on the forward flight deck of American carriers is not visible anywhere in this video.
2. In the upper right corner of the full frame is a much smaller frame. This looks like it might be a magnified image of a portion of the main frame.
3. Later in the video, and aircraft can be clearly seen launching from one of the waist catapults.
4. Aircraft can be observed in flight in the near vicinity of the carrier.
5. A surface warship is visible in the video but not identifiable because of the extremely poor resolution.
We need someone familiar with, ideally actively involved in, modern carrier operations to evaluate this video. It may be someones home movie, or an official video of an exercise.
I doubt that the video is from an Iranian drone, although I do not have sufficient technical knowledge to assert claims about how good our radar coverage is. Can Aegis detect a wooden drone hacked together from model airplane parts?
The question is then where did the Iranians get the video?
Posted by: Earl at November 13, 2006 03:53 PM (Fg/Pu)
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Regarding my comment above, your site will not accept a comment containing a google address for some strange reason so the URL above has the periods replaced with the word " dot ".
Posted by: Earl at November 13, 2006 03:56 PM (Fg/Pu)
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After watching the video, I say its legit.
I'd say its recent too since no S-3s are aboard and Super Hornets are.
The deck is spotted with an alert package and they are in the process of launching it.
Now, whether or not the UAV had been spotted for some period before, is another question entirely...
Posted by: sid at November 13, 2006 08:16 PM (4sRQo)
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Watched the video some more and I am even more convinced its likely real.
Again, that is NOT to say that the presence of the drone went undetected by the USN or that it really represents a truly viable threat (but it IS worrisome no matter what in that is shows where they are headed with such capabilities).
Assuming it is in fact video from an Iranian UAV some real quetions arise:
How was it controlled?
Likely wasn't autonomous given the moving target.
How was it navigated overhead the carrier?
Was the video linked back or taped?
(note the EMI patterns in the video)
As of Nov 7th, the Eisenhower is in the Gulf...
http://www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=40642
http://www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=40713
The carrier is turning into the wind in preparation for launch. Checkout the wave pattern for a sense of the surface winds.
The ship is spotted in a typical "alert" configuration. There are two sections of F-18s on the waist cats and an E-2 forward.
Contrary to your assertion CY, I will opine that she had no aircraft aloft (other than maybe helos). Carriers don't have aircraft aloft ALL the time.
The surface ship seen very briefly is a Ticonderoga class CG. Real good probabilities it is the Anzio which is deployed with the Eisenhower...
http://www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=40684
The deck numbers are painted on much more ghostly than they used to be. Checkout this picture again...
http://www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=40544
Also note there are no S-3s are present on deck. They are being retired and CVWs are deploying now without them. The carrier in the Iranian video has no S-3s on deck either. My bet its the Ike in that video.
Some things to remember. The carrier is there in part to protect Freedom of Navigation. Since this purported encounter took part in international waters (or most likely did given how the carrier is maneuvering), then the Iranian UAV had every right to be there.
And if it was determined to not represent hostile intent than there would be little reason to react in any significant way to it.
Indeed, there would be every reason NOT to....
One last rub though. Pilotless vehicles tooling about makes airspace deconfliction a real issue.
Now what if it had been at night and the drone wondered into the vicinity of marshall and there was a midair?
That nightmare scenario would make the pooh hit the rotating blades in a BIG way!
Somebody had best be thinking of an adjunct to IncSea agreements that covers UAVs....
Posted by: sid at November 13, 2006 10:13 PM (4sRQo)
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>do YOU have clear evidence that Colin Powell provided fake multimedia presentations?
Well, there's this. Nothing in it that is at all specutaltive panned out. Read it yourself. Curveball, aluminum tubes, UAVs, Mobile Production Facilities for Biological Agensts, AQ No. 3 s, and much more. The main rhetorical points in favor of occupying Iraq are brief but generally still true:
>Nothing points more clearly to Saddam Hussein's dangerous intentions and the threat he poses to all of us than his calculated cruelty to his own citizens and to his neighbors. Clearly, Saddam Hussein and his regime will stop at nothing until something stops him.
>For more than 20 years, by word and by deed, Saddam Hussein has pursued his ambition to dominate Iraq and the broader Middle East using the only means he knows: intimidation, coercion and annihilation of all those who might stand in his way. For Saddam Hussein, possession of the world's most deadly weapons is the ultimate trump card, the one he must hold to fulfill his ambition.
>We know that Saddam Hussein is determined to keep his weapons of mass destruction, is determined to make more. Given Saddam Hussein's history of aggression, given what we know of his grandiose plans, given what we know of his terrorist associations, and given his determination to exact revenge on those who oppose him, should we take the risk that he will not someday use these weapons at a time and a place and in a manner of his choosing, at a time when the world is in a much weaker position to respond?
>The United States will not and cannot run that risk for the American people. Leaving Saddam Hussein in possession of weapons of mass destruction for a few more months or years is not an option, not in a post-September 11 world.
>My colleagues, over three months ago, this Council recognized that Iraq continued to pose a threat to international peace and security, and that Iraq had been and remained in material breach of its disarmament obligations.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2003/iraq-030205-powell-un-17300pf.htm
A good troll would have an opinon about the authenticity of the carrier video but I don't know Iranian video from Youtube.
Posted by: numberfourpencil at November 14, 2006 12:56 AM (EvDxo)
14
Beyond all the other issues discussed already, the Iranian video looks as if it were taken with a hand-held camera. The panning and zooming is typical of an excited amateur videographer. Each shot has the jiggling and response times of a direct human operator. These kind of motions and response times just don't happen in a system dependent on robotic motions and lagging man/machine feedback times. It would take an extraordinary useless effort to build a drone to imitate both the good and the bad behaviors in this video.
Posted by: photoman at November 14, 2006 12:21 PM (2kF+C)
15
If you look in the right bottom corner during parts of the video you will see a black, possibly curved, object come on camera.
While it could be a multitude of things, the first thing that popped into my head was the curved corners of passenger aircraft windows. It seems possible to me that, as Photoman said, this was filmed by a person in a conventional aircraft flying over the gulf, or anywhere else for that matter. Don't know if its true or not but it is food for thought.
Posted by: Endyr at November 15, 2006 03:05 AM (r11uJ)
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November 10, 2006
Veteran's Day With Doolittle's Raiders
Michelle Malkin interviews some the surviving Doolittle Raiders and
Hornet crewmen over at
Hot Air.
Background on the Raiders here, and here.
A special thanks to these brave veterans, the other 25 million surviving veterans of past wars, and the millions of soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines that served before them to to ensure our freedoms.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:39 AM
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Originally this was known as Armistice Day marking the end of the first world war, the 11 hour the 11 day of the 11 month. The name was changed to Veterans' Day by Act of Congress on May 24, 1954. In October of that year, President Eisenhower called on all citizens to observe the day by remembering the sacrifices of all those who fought so gallantly, and through rededication to the task of promoting an enduring peace. The President referred to the change of name to Veterans' Day in honor of the servicemen of all America's wars.
However, to some of us Today means a little bit more November 10, is the United States Marine Corps Birthday..Happy Birthday Marines.
Today is Birthday number 231
Posted by: MarkT at November 10, 2006 04:14 PM (YadGF)
2
The Senrinels
You ancient, rusty relics- if you
could only tell
Your history and your legends, of
the battles and the hell.
You lie silent on those beaches,
where you formed a battle line,
Now decaying hulks of rusting steel
from a different place and time.
Ghostly figures man your turrets,
though the surf's the only sound.
Aye, your guns are long since si-
lenced, while the ground swells
rage and pound.
I close my eyes and visualize those
beachheads long ago,
When young Marines were fighting
through that surf and undertow
All too many never made it and, like
you, they shall remain
Silent sentinels at your turrets, while
the hourglass drops its grain.
Time, to you , is unimportant; You're
a monument to the past,,,
But your presence is a waning, if
again the die is cast.
Let no tyrant, King or ruler ever tam-
per with our land,
Lest you start your rusty engines,
and your gunners rise and stand.
May you never be forgotten; May the
old vets spread your fame,
For your colors still fly boldly, and
Old Glory still her name.
Carl Dearborn.
Posted by: Mark at November 11, 2006 08:11 AM (YadGF)
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Roll-Your-Own Terrorists: Fish and Chips Edition
The British people may not have any interest in fighting Islamic terrorism, but Islamists certainly have an interest in
fighting them:
British authorities are tracking almost 30 terrorist plots involving 1,600 individuals, the head of Britain's MI5 spy agency said, adding that many of the suspects are homegrown British terrorists plotting homicide attacks.
In a speech released by her agency Friday, Dame Eliza Manningham-Buller said MI5 had foiled five major plots since the July 2005 transit bomb attacks in London.
Speaking to a small audience of academics in London on Thursday, Manningham-Buller said officials were "aware of numerous plots to kill people and to damage our economy."
"What do I mean by numerous? Five? Ten?" she said. "No, nearer 30 that we currently know of."
She said MI5 and the police were tackling 200 cells involving more than 1,600 individuals who were "actively engaged in plotting or facilitating terrorist acts here and overseas."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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"The British people may not have any interest in fighting Islamic terrorism"
I think you're confusing the Britih media with the British people here, not the same thing.
Unfortunately the British media is crippled by Liberalism. They project the false impression that this Islamic threat must somehow be our fault and that it is "us" that must change if we are to placate the terrorists.
Let me tell you that is not the view of the 99.9% of people that I come across, and being a cabbie I get to talk to quite a few people.
The consensus is that these people must be crushed and if innocents get caught up in the crushing then that is just unfortunate. Pressure is beginning to be applied to our impotent political parties, and if they are unwilling or unable to sort out this shit then if fear there will be blood on the streets.
Posted by: Glynn at November 13, 2006 10:25 AM (lvJwM)
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November 09, 2006
Bill Maher's Sex Slaves
It seems that liberal comedian pundit Bill Maher (if you've never heard of him don't feel bad; the comedian label is something of a misnomer) intends to play "the outing game" according to an interview he did with Larry King on CNN. His targets, as you may well expect, will be prominent Republicans he feels might be gay.
The liberals at the Huffington Post and always acrid John Aravosis of AmericaBlog are absolutely livid that Maher's naming of RNC Chair Ken Mehlman was edited out of later rebroadcasts of the King interview.
For those on the "tolerant" left, it seems that being gay and Republican--or for that matter, almost any minority and a Republican-- is a sin of the first order. Punishment for this "sin" is the practice of being "outed," whereby liberals that hate prominent Republicans for their policy differences also pronounce them gay in a public forum, whereby other liberals can join in and share in hating them for the compounded sin of being gay and Republican.
In this worldview practiced by too many liberals, one's views on social security reform, healthcare, taxes, defense matters, foreign policy, trade, the death penalty, abortion, religion, etc, are all superceded by which gender you are attracted to.
What this means for homosexuals according to liberals, is that even though you might favor small government, low taxes, a strong military, an aggressive foreign policy, closing the borders to illegal aliens, free trade and 90% of the planks on the Republican platform, you are a traitor if you aren't liberal. If you are gay, goes their logic, you must, by their decree, be liberal.
If not, you'll face such lovely, constructive, adult perspectives such as these culled from the HuffPo comment thread:
Out the gay bastards who undermine their own lives by working for the GOP....
Gay Republicans are guilty of self-loathing and by serving a party that's harmful them they feel relieved of their guilt. Maschochists.
The great sin, in their warped perspective, is that of hypocrisy.
But what people that hold to a slate of political ideas that are conservative across the board, and happen to be gay? Should they suborn the larger part of their belief system to their libido just to appease someone else's radical politics?
I'd say making someone a social and political slave to their sexual attractions is the greater hypocrisy, but what do I know.
I'm one of those intolerant conservatives.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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"Should they suborn the larger part of their belief system to their libido just to appease someone else's radical politics?"
Suborn their beliefs to their "libido"?
Are you kidding? Do you really think that being gay is simply a matter of "libido"?
Man, and here I thought that the idea that all wingers were homophobic was simply a stereotype. Guess I was wrong.
Posted by: mklutra at November 09, 2006 05:38 PM (ASUDI)
2
Do you really think that being gay is simply a matter of "libido"?
Well, I've only had a dozen or so gay friends in the course of my life and that
did seem to be the most obvious difference between us. I didn't see any extra limbs, or anything.
Please, explain why the should abandon all of their other beliefs based just upon their sexuality. Your position that someone should be liberal because they are gay is every bit as retarded as saying hetrosexuals
must be conservative, or that bisexuals
must be--oh, I don't know--libertarian?
That's it! Glenn Reynolds must be bisexual because he's libertarian. If he's straight... OH THE HYPOCRISY!!!
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 09, 2006 06:15 PM (HcgFD)
3
It's all so simple for you folks, isn't it? It all comes down to which gender you are attracted to.
Let me ask you this: Do you think it is possible for a gay person to love his or her family as much as a straight person does? Do you think it might be possible that a gay person might want to protect his or her family just like a straight person does? Do you think that gay people should enjoy the same protection from job discrimination that straight people enjoy? Should gay people be allowed to include their families in their health insurance the same way that straight people do? Should a gay person be allowed to visit his or her partner in the hospital and make medical decisions for them when they themselves are unable to do so, like straight people do?
In short, do you believe that gay people should have the same rights and privileges as straight people? Should they enjoy equal protection under the laws of our nation?
It's a lot more complicated than "libido." Somehow, though, I'm not surprised that you believe it isn't.
Posted by: Len at November 09, 2006 06:20 PM (HwpS0)
4
Strange how the Left pushes so hard for the right to privacy, and then will ignore it completely when they think it is in their favor to do so. Welcome to the
Authoritarian Neighborhood of Mr. Rogers, where privacy is what he thinks it is on matters sexual. So nice of them to determine THAT for other people now, isn't it? They can spare me anything on the NSA after those wonderful goings-on, lately, where committed ideologues decided to play judge,jury and executioner on just what is and is not private not just for Congresscritters but for non-partisan staff that serves the Government, not either party.
But then I do see the rights of individuals as being for ALL individuals, without respect to party, religion, sexual persuasion or carbonated beverage preference.
Posted by: ajacksonian at November 09, 2006 07:36 PM (VLjJI)
5
Len,
As
every. single. thing. you just described is common to almost all people, regardless of their sexual orientation, you've proven my point. Thank you.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 09, 2006 08:11 PM (HcgFD)
6
I used to not mind gay marriage, but now I would vote against it because the left gay mafia is vile.
This is what happens when you create a backlash, places like Wisconsin pass marriage initiatives. In an election that favored Dems, most states protected marriage. You catch more flies with honey, not hatred and belittling the American people.
Too bad, the gay leftist crowd set back gay marriage by decades with their stupid stunts.
Posted by: Stormy70 at November 09, 2006 08:41 PM (7WJsV)
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Yankee: Wait a minute. You think that gays already have all those things I asked you about? Wow. What world do you live in? I only ask because I think I might want to visit sometime.
As for proving your point, I'd really appreciate it if you'd explain to me how I did that. Your point was that being gay is nothing more than choosing with whom you want to have sex. An ignorant view at best, and definitely not one that I would "prove."
Posted by: Len at November 09, 2006 08:47 PM (HwpS0)
8
Concerns? Civil rights are now
concerns? Equal rights and equal protection under the law for all Americans has now been diminished to a
concern?
Wow.
Thank the heavens for
concerned people.
Posted by: Len at November 09, 2006 09:23 PM (ThYc0)
9
Gays have a choice in their mode of lifestyle, as all people do. You can act like Stalinists or act like you live in a Republic and advocate for your position using reason and persuasion. Instead, we get the gay Republican witch hunt with cries of homophope to anyone who wants to protect marriage from unelected judges. Connecticut was a fine example of legislating civil unions. No hue and cry from the electorate because the correct people were making the law.
Gay conservatives exist in and out of the closet. Yet, they have no freedom to choose their lifestyle, since the left considers them fair game. Until you treat gay Republicans with respect, I will consider your arguments hollow. You want allegience to your political beliefs, not true gay rights.
Posted by: Stormy70 at November 09, 2006 10:23 PM (7WJsV)
10
You are all retarded. It doesn't matter what the motivation of either side is. You don't edit out a comment on a news channel to pretend it never happened. And to edit it out of the written transcripts is an absolute travesty?
If you want to stop speech you don't like convince the person speaking it they are wrong. To pretend it was never said is a disservice to everyone and goes against everything this country was founded on.
Get a set of journalistic principles you retarded hyenas.
Posted by: JC at November 10, 2006 01:54 AM (qj7dd)
11
You don't edit out a comment on a news channel to pretend it never happened.
Why did they edit it?
Because they were EMBARRASSED?
Why are you so defensive?
Some questions answer themselves.
Posted by: lonetown at November 10, 2006 06:04 AM (KdCoY)
12
The media is a private business, they can edit out whatever the hell they want.
When I need to know how to snort coke off a barely legal teen hooker, I will look to Mayer. Otherwise, he is just a hedonistic drug addict.
Posted by: Stormy70 at November 10, 2006 07:28 AM (7WJsV)
13
Well I propose you DO edit it out if it is a rumourous accusation that could expose your company to a libel suit. I mean CNN is a private company, not like you can claim 'censorship' or some crap.
Posted by: Buddy at November 10, 2006 08:56 AM (aGQVo)
14
anyone see American Dad last Sunday? If you can find it online, it's quite relevant (and pretty damn funny).
Posted by: ez at November 10, 2006 09:37 AM (8xTQ/)
15
A clip...
http://www.dailymotion.com/visited/search/american%20dad/video/xm8f2_american-dadgay-republican
Posted by: ez at November 10, 2006 09:42 AM (8xTQ/)
16
I am having a considerable amount of difficulty following the arguments and reasoning that have been presented so far. The difference in the groups is clearly implied in their respective names with the division being sexual in nature. I think the conservatives have issues with homosexuals as they are demanding law to be passed and judges to create laws that make them an exclusive group. If you do that then you will and should be descriminated against.
As to the list of things that gay couples can and can't do. That is bull. If a gay couple wants to marry they can do so. It is called a contract. The only difference with heteros is that the contract is mandated by the state to protect women and children. As to not seeing people in the hospital, thank your local Democrat and his passage of the HIPPA laws. On the insurance, I can't get coverage without a job as it is and I am a physician.
Republican gays represent those individuals that have finally awakened to the fact they do not care to give all their money to the government and become socialist (unless they also realize Lincoln was gay as well).
Posted by: David Caskey at November 10, 2006 12:21 PM (xxoPt)
17
Civil rights are now concerns?
What else might they be? Please be specific.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 10, 2006 01:37 PM (VUHCq)
18
Maher's distasteful conduct is a logical extension of identity politics. While straight people can be doctors, lawyers, parents, teachers, construction workers, etc., gays are always first and foremost gays -- people defined, not by their accomplishments, but by their bedroom activities. Everything is secondary to their sexuality. The same holds true for those whose primary identification is their own skin color.
No wonder those on the Left, deeply invested in identity politics, consider it treasonous for people to try to escape the bedroom or the racial ghetto, or whatever overarching label has been attached to them. They've suddenly ceased to be malleable and easily identifiable, and have become thoughtful people reacting to a variety of different issues in their lives.
Posted by: Bookworm at November 10, 2006 04:58 PM (izGwW)
Posted by: directorblue at November 10, 2006 07:38 PM (z1M8l)
20
As a radical Libertarian, I find myself torn on this issue.
On one hand, 'outing' is, in all its forms, a cheap political manuever and a complete subversion of personal privacy.
Furthermore, I hate deterministic politics. Being gay doesn't mean one has to accept the liberal agenda, anymore than being a a white protestant male means one has to accept the conservative agenda. I applaud gay conservatives on the grounds that this country desperately needs more unique people.
But what is neglected here is the obvious fact that the republican party RUNS on gay hatred. Santorum thinks they are sub-human. Alan Keyes disowned his lesbian daughter. Cheney denies his daughter the pursuit of happiness. You can call this a big tent party all you want, but it doesnt make their core any less intolerant.
When blacks are ostracized by the left for being Republican, its disgraceful, because republicans don't campaign on black hatred. But when gay people are ostracized for being republican, I think it is somewhat more justified.
Personally, I think dignity matters. Were I a gay person, I would not trade my dignity for tax cuts. Doesn't mean I don't support tax cuts, just that it should take a back seat for a while.
Again, there is valid points on both sides.
Posted by: Neal M at November 11, 2006 01:11 AM (jW6g0)
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Cheney never denied his daughter, she ran his campaigns.
Gays overreached, and suffered the backlash for it. I don't feel sorry for them. The left ran the gay outing campaign and destroyed any sympathy I ever had for their plight. Much like the Palestinians, sometimes you deserve what you set in motion. They should have never gone after the tradition of marriage, but advocated for civil unions through the elected representatives. Since I am in Texas, I mostly know the conservative gay crowd, not the libertine pinko gay mafia. I had no problems with civil unions, now I am sick of the derisive campaign ran by the left against anyone with differing political views. I will vote against anything that would make those people happy.
Posted by: Stormy70 at November 11, 2006 11:52 AM (7WJsV)
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I didnt say Cheney denied his daughter.
I said he, like every person opposed to gay marriage, does not believe in the pursuit of happiness, a right only this country guarentees. And you clearly do not either, since you admit to basing your votes on denying people happiness. What an American! Bravo, sir, Bravo!
No conservative has ever articulated for me how two gays getting married in Massachusetts actually harms a strait married couple in Alabama. Until they do Im tarring them as freedom-hating fascists.
Posted by: Neal M at November 11, 2006 03:54 PM (jW6g0)
23
No gay has advocated why marriage must be put in place by judges, instead of going through the lawful process. Now gays will have to overcome actual constitutional bans voted on by the people, instead of going for civil unions. Even gay leadership has stated this was the wrong way of going about gay marriage.
Nice dig at my Americanism, though. Right out of the Left's playbook. I thought the left hated it when people questioned their Americanism. I am not the one who chose the judicial fiat route.
Posted by: Stormy70 at November 12, 2006 08:36 AM (7WJsV)
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Neal M.,
Perhaps if all of the "married" gays would stay in Massacusetts it wouldn't harm a straight married couple in Alabama. The problem is that states are compelled to recognize marriages performed in other states.
I therefore propose that all gays who wish to be "married" move to Massachusetts.
Posted by: noprisoners at November 13, 2006 06:43 PM (zGtjs)
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