November 22, 2006
Kneecapping Snakes
Jules Crittenden,
Boston Herald city editor and columnist
blogs this morning:
It will be interesting after the assassination of Pierre Gemayel in Lebanon ... not to mention last summer's hijacking of the nation by Hezbollah ... not to mention last year's assassination of Rafik Hariri ... not to mention the last 25 years of Syrian and Iranian interference in Lebanon and now in Iraq ... it will be interesting to see if anyone will still counsel talks with Syria and Iran under any terms that do not include a very real threat of force.
The assassination of Pierre Gemayel was the fifth assassination of an anti-Syrian politician in Lebanon, and was meant to be the sixth--Michel Pharaon, a Greek Catholic member of the ruling coalition and minister for parliamentary affairs--was meant to be the fifth, but the hit at his office in Lebanon just hours before the Gemayel assassination failed. The goal of targeting Gemayel and Pharon is clear. If both assassinations were successful, less than two-thirds of the 24-member Lebanese cabinet would remain following the now suspicious resignations of six pro-Syrian/pro-Iranian (five Shiite, 1 Christian) ministers last week.
The combination of the Gemayel assassination and the earlier resignations means that the government is effectively frozen, unable to enact any new legislation. If the attempted assassination of Pharaon had been successful, a future assassination attempt against any other minister is successful, or another minister resigns, Article 69 of the Lebanese constitution stipulates that the government is automatically resigned. It is likely a fair assumption that the assassination attempts on Gemayel (successful) and Pharaon (unsuccessful) were conducted with the express intent of toppling the pro-western Fuad Sinora government, which is then quite likely to be replaced by a pro-Syrian, Hezbollah-controlled regime. It is, as Michael Totten noted yesterday, nothing less than a coup d'etat in progress.
President Bush condemned the Gemayel murder as an act of terrorism and accused Syria and Iran of attempting to undermine Lebanon's government, but stopped short of accusing them of Gemayel's murder, presumably because of the current lack of evidence of direct Syrian and/or Iranian involvement.
But, considering the facts that we already know about Iranian and Syrian involvement in supporting terrorism in Lebanon, Iraq, and elsewhere, do we really need any more proof to justify taking action against both nations?
As I've been noting with increased sense of urgency over the past week or so, Syria and Iran must be made accountable in some way for their continued state sponsorship of terrorism. Currently, that support is most precipitous in Lebanon where they are supporting what appears to be a coup attempt, and with their support of terrorists operating directly against U.S. and Iraqi government forces inside Iraq.
Obviously, political pressure would be the preferred manner of dealing with both nations, but thus far, both nations have shown themselves to be adamantly unmoved by U.S. entreaties to stay out of affairs in Lebanon, and Iraq.
Syria and Iran were both warned weeks ago to avoid involving themselves in an attempt to topple the government in Lebanon; Gamayel's murder and the attempt on Pharaon's life were their answer.
Iran and Syria have played a direct role in supporting the terrorist group Hezbollah with $300 million in cash and their rearming, providing up to 30,000 rockets to levels even greater than Hezbollah had before the recent conflict they instigated against Israel by kidnapping Israeli soldiers.
In addition to attempting to topple the government of Lebanon, Iran and Syria have been behind efforts to cause instability in Iraq, permitting terrorists to use their borders to infiltrate in with pre-rigged IEDs that are used to target U.S. and British servicemen.
According to Bob Woodward's new book, State of Denial, Iran's elite Revolutionary Guards was urging Hezbollah to train Iraqi insurgents on how to build and use shaped-charge IEDs to target American armored vehicles. Woodward states (via NRO):
Pages 414-415: "Some evidence indicated that the Iranian-backed terrorist group Hezbollah was training insurgents to build and use the shaped IED's, at the urging of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps. That kind of action was arguably an act of war by Iran against the United States. If we start putting out everything we know about these things, Zelikow felt, the administration might well start a fire it couldn't put out..."
Page 449: "The components and the training for (the IEDs) had more and more clearly been traced to Iran, one of the most troubling turns in the war."
Page 474ß: "The radical Revolutionary Guards Corps had asked Hizbollah, the terrorist organization, to conduct some of the training of Iraqis to use the EFPs, according to U.S. Intelligence. If all this were put out publicly, it might start a fire that no one could put out...Second, if it were true, it meant that Iranians were killing American soldiers — an act of war..."
And from the same National Review column:
It's not the first time we have had information about Iran's murder of Americans. Louis Freeh tells us that the same thing happened following the Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia. On page 18 of Freeh's My FBI he reports that Saudi Ambassador Bandar told Freeh "we have the goods," pointing "ineluctably towad Iran." The culprits were the same as in Iraq: Hezbollah, under direction from the Iranian Revolutionary Guards and the Iranian Ministry of Intelligence. And then there was a confession from outgoing Iranian President Hashemi Rafsanjani to Crown Prince Abdullah (at the time, effectively the Saudi king): page 19: "the Khobar attack had been planned and carried out with the knowledge of the Iranian supreme ruler, Ayatollah Khamenei."
As Freeh puts it, "this had been an act of war against the United States of America."
Whether or not the President acknowledges it, a state of war exists between the United States and the governments of Iran and Syria. The question before us now is whether or not we chose to acknowledge this state of war that our adversaries have instigated, and if we will take the steps needed end this state of conflict with a minimal loss of life on all sides.
Any response we make—political, economic or military—may trigger a renewed rocket assault on Israel by Hezbollah, and a dramatic surge in violence against U.S. and Iraqi government forces in Iraq by Shia militias loyal to Iran. This is in addition to direct counterstrikes that the Syrian and Iranian military may have preplanned against U.S. forces and allied nations throughout the Middle East. Such actions would likely include Iranian attempts to target and destroy refineries, oil pumping stations, ports, and pipelines and oil rigs in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and other Persian Gulf Nations, in addition to an attempt to close the Straits of Hormuz to shipping, thereby paralyzing many of the world's economies dependent on the free flow of Persian Gulf oil.
Therefore, the best and only option available to the United States and allied nations threatened by Iran and Syria is an overwhelming series of air strikes that will cripple these ability of these two nations to project military power both directly and indirectly, along with the explicit message that further measures taken by Iran and Syria to effect changes through the use of terrorism or through conventional warfare will result in far more debilitating attacks that would wreck the economies of these nations and threaten the very existence of their regimes.
The "biggest sticks" in the Iranian arsenal are two-fold; their ability to influence terrorists in Iraq and in Lebanon, and their purported ability to close the Persian Gulf to shipping via military means. Syria has much more limited capabilities.
Very little can be done to directly stop Syrian and Iranian contributions to terrorism, but as Syria is something of a client state of Iran, our best opportunity may be to take on the "head of the snake;" where Iran leads, Syria will likely follow, and Iran is in a far more precipitous position than they would have us believe.
As Global Security notes, Iran's primary means of affecting Persian Gulf Shipping is their smallest and most obsolete branch of service, the Iranian Navy:
Iran's three destroyers are over 50 years old and are not operational. The readiness of the three 25-year-old frigates is almost non-existent, and the two 30-year-old corvettes do not have sophisticated weapons. Ten of 20 missile-equipped fast attack craft have limited operational readiness, and four of them are not seaworthy as of 2001. Only 10 Chinese-made Thodor-class craft are operationally reliable. The four 30-year-old minesweepers are obsolete, lack seaworthiness, and do not have a mine-sweeping capability. Iran has many amphibious and auxiliary ships, but these are superfluous to requirements and are used purely for training personnel. Iran's ten hovercraft are old and used sparingly.
Iran's greatest naval threats are Chinese-made high-speed C-14 and similar missile gunboats, three Russian-designed Kilo-class submarines, and island and platform-mounted anti-ship missile batteries.
It would take comparatively little effort or tactical risk for American Air Force and Naval aircraft to send the ships, small craft and submarines of the Iranian Navy to the bottom of the Persian Gulf, with Iranian forces on platforms and on small Iranian-controlled islands being slightly more difficult.
The destruction of Iran's nominal Persian Gulf fleet would be a crushing psychological blow to both Iran and Syria, and it would greatly reduce Iran's capability to threaten Persian Gulf shipping, a factor that to date has let Iran support terrorism as the rest of the world has turned a blind eye.
What would possibly keep Iran or their proxies from retaliating is a threat issued concurrent to U.S. air strikes on the Iranian navy:
You've seen what we have done to your navy. How long with your government last if we decide to target your refineries and blockade any ship attempting to deliver refined petroleum products to Iran? Stop supporting terrorism in Iraq and Lebanon, or these further steps will be taken.
One of Iran's dirty little secrets is this: for a nation rich in oil, they are very poor in their ability to convert this oil into usable fuel.
The threat issued would state that if Iran attempts to retaliate, either directly or indirectly to the reduction of their Navy, further air strikes could decimate their very limited refinery capability, while a blockade in the Gulf of Oman of Iran-bound tankers carrying refined fuels would cause Iran to "dry up" within weeks. IranÂ’s military and their economy would be crippled with comparatively little effort on the part of the United States Navy, which could enforce a blockade well outside the range of Iranian countermeasures.
Iran has already begun a war with the United States and seeks to wage it via proxies in Iraq and Lebanon. It is time that we reduce the threat of Hezbollah and Shiite militias to ourselves and our allies by cutting them off at the knees.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Not to forget the failed hit on
May Chidiac. Its generally accepted the Syrians did that one too.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 22, 2006 04:25 PM (wfN0Q)
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I've spent more than a year in Iraq since 2003, in several trips as a (retired military) contractor, most recently I left in May of this year.
This is a dumb idea.
It involves both overstating and understating the Iranian threat.
Overstating to justify an attack on a country which cooperated with us in Afghanistan, and has shown a willingness to have some kind of dialogue. Their desire to get a nuclear weapon is rational if you look at the threatening rhetoric the US puts out (Axis of Evil) and see how 2 members of the Axis were treated: powerless Iraq invaded, nuke-armed North Korea left alone. It also overstates Ahmedinajad's power and underestimates the power of deterrence.
Understating to the degree to which the Iranians now permeate the south of Iraq and their influence in the government in Baghdad is very strong. Advisors talk about the outright Iranian domination of some Iraqi ministries, especially the Interior Ministry. Iranian intelligence and special forces advise and equip the Mahdi Army, Badr Corps and other Shia militias. The Iranians have public offices in southern Iraqi cities like Basra. Persian is spoken openly in the south by these Iranian agents hanging about in government offices.
As one Iraqi friend told me "The Iranians have 130,000 American hostages in Iraq now."
However much you bombed Iran, the Iranians and their proxies would make life unbearable for the USA in Iraq, and possibly cause a historic debacle. The USA does not have the reserves to handle the full-scale conflict which could result, and could be humiliated if the Chinese and Russians stepped in.
This is the kind of stupidity that comes from people with no military experience or experience in the region. Morons.
Posted by: observer 5 at November 23, 2006 05:15 PM (A/j9n)
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The USA does not have the reserves to handle the full-scale conflict which could result
Armies don't run on thin air. What is going to fuel the Iranian forces once the pumps run dry?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 24, 2006 01:09 AM (wfN0Q)
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November 21, 2006
What Do Muslims Have in Common With Democrats?
Even death does not stop people from
converting:
Shahin of the Tucson Islamic Center said more than 1,200 Muslims died in the World Trade Center catastrophe, and no genuine member of Islam would do such a thing.
So, almost half of those killed in New York on 9/11 were Muslims? Neat trick, since Muslims are just 0.6% of the U.S. population.
Oh, and Omar Shahin, the idiot that uttered this? He was one of the six imams booted from a flight at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport last night.
Praise be to Allah.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I do not believe those statistics. If there are over a half million Muslims, exclusive of diplomats, tourists and foreign students, I would be appalled. Even in the local college district, I hardly ever get a chance to sneer at costumed crackpots.
Posted by: Bleepless at November 22, 2006 09:25 PM (f3vh+)
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Crude Messages
As you probably already know by now, the political story of the day is that another Lebanese politician has been
assassinated.
LebanonÂ’s industry minister Pierre Gemayel was driving in Jdeideh when he was boxed in by two cars. the first slammed on its brakes causing Gemayel to crash into it, while the second car pinned Gemayla's vehicle from behind. Gunmen fired a minimum of 14 shots.
Like Rafik Hariri who was assassinated in a car bombing on February 14, 2005, Pierre Gemayel was anti-Syrian.
Reaction:
Wael Abu Faour, an anti-Syrian lawmaker, told Al-Jazeera, "We directly accuse the Syrian regime of assassinating Gemayel and hold (Syrian) President Bashar Assad responsible for this assassination ... aimed at sending Lebanon into a civil war."
In an interview with CNN, Saad Hariri, Rafik's son and leader of the anti-Syrian parliamentary majority, implicitly blamed Damascus, saying, "We believe the hand of Syria is all over the place." He said Gemayel was "a friend, a brother to all of us" and appeared to break down after saying: "we will bring justice to all those who killed him."
Gemayel's death came hours before a deadline for the U.N. Security Council to approve a letter endorsing an agreement with Lebanon to create a tribunal to prosecute Rafik Hariri's suspected killers.
It is suspected that top officials in the Syrian government, perhaps even Syrian dictator Bashar Assad himself, may be implicated in ordering Hariri's 2005 murder.
While any assassination of an anti-Syrian politician in Lebanon is suspicious, the timing of the Gemayel murder is incredibly explosive, and perhaps that was the intention.
In addition to the implicit warning the assassination sends to those who would endorse the U.N. tribunal, the murder comes just days before planned Hezbollah protests aimed at toppling the Lebanese government. The government could also be toppled with the death or resignation of one more minister of the Lebanese cabinet. As Michael Totten notes, "Looks like the coup d'etat is in progress." Indeed, an attempt was made on the life of Michel Pharaon, the minister of state from parliamentary affairs just hours before Gemayel's murder.
The U.S government had only recently accused Syria and Iran of plotting to overthrow the Lebanese government, and a U.S. State Department official, Nicholas Burns, stated, "We will give full support to the Saniora government in the days and weeks ahead."
This begs the question: what kind of support does the United States have to offer a Lebanese government on the brink of collapse?
Note: As always, Allahpundit provides the roundup.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Unseasonably Cruel
And thus is the
human cost of hatred.
A joint U.S. Iraqi raid into the Sadr City slums of Muqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army led to a firefight between coalition forces and Mahdi Army militiamen. The fighting was intense enough that an air strike was called in on a building from which the militiamen were firing, leading to the deaths of this boy's younger brother and two others, the wounding of 15, and the capture of 7 militiamen, one of which is believed to have taken part in the kidnapping of a still-missing American soldier.
The Mahdi Army is one of the most active factions in the on-going sectarian violence in Baghdad, responsible for the kidnapping, torture, and murder of hundreds (if not thousands) of Iraqi Sunnis. The militiamen--likely his own relatives considering the fact that Iraqis tend to live in family compounds--attempted to use his home as a bunker. Of course, that doesn't matter to this child. He only knows that his baby brother is dead.
It's easy to sling blame around.
He and the rest of his family will likely grow up hating the United States and the Iraqi government troops that participated in this raid. It is highly unlikely that they will acknowledge their own far greater culpability.
Their neighborhood was raided because coalition forces were acting on intelligence that kidnappers and murderous thugs lived there, and these same thugs--perhaps his own father, brothers, uncles, or cousins--likely kidnapped, tortured and murdered fellow Iraqis, and then were daft enough to try to fight coalition forces from a home with children inside. While U.S. air support pulled the trigger on the munitions that killed his brother, the militiamen in their midst, firing at U.S. and Iraqi forces, caused that trigger to be pulled. They can add their own young relative to their body count. They will not stop for a second to think about the fact that they have likely caused the same trauma in loss in Sunni families just blocks or miles away.
Compounding the loss and magnifying the lessons unlearned are fellow Shiites like legislator Saleh Al-Ukailli.
"I am suspending my membership in parliament since it remains silent about crimes such as this against the Iraqi people," legislator Saleh Al-Ukailli told reporters outside the Imam Ali Hospital. "I will not return to parliament until the occupation troops leave the country."
Al-Ukailli is one of 30 legislators in Iraq's 275-member parliament who follow Muqtada al-Sadr, the anti-American Shiite cleric whose main offices are in Sadr City.
Al-Ukailli could care less about "crimes... against the Iraqi people."
Like far too many Sadr loyalists in the Iraqi government, he seems to harbor no concerns about the crimes his fellow Shia perpetrate, and only professes outrage once they are forced to account for their own depravity. Left to their own devices, such men would continue to turn a blind eye to the slaughter of Sunnis and Kurds, as long as it suits his purpose. I have little doubt that men such as Al-Ukailli turn a blind eye when Sunni children have their fathers and brothers slaughtered. They are democratically elected, but still do not understand democracy, nor freedom, nor compromise.
* * *
And so here in America, over broadband networks in climate-controlled comfort, in a far more stable environment, we still carp over why we went to war, and when we should leave, and whether or not the cost we are paying as a nation is too high. We see things all too often through our own warped prisms, playing politics as children die.
"We caused this! Out of Iraq NOW!"
This is the cry I hear from many, every day, from both the political left which feels we never should have been there, and from moderates and many of those on the right who now feel our continued presence is a mistake. Our costs--1.7 lives a day--are too much for our mercilessly civilized post-modern sensibilities.
And yet we know the ugly secret, don't we?
We know that for every tragic loss of an American soldier, sailor, airman or marine in Iraq, Iraqi soldiers, policemen, and civilians pay a far higher price. We know that comparatively, our costs are few.
In a nation under severe internal strife, brave men in Iraq still show up at recruiting stations to become policemen and soldiers. They have nowhere to return to, nowhere to run, and have a simple choice; become a victor, or become a victim. In Ramadi, the capital of the al-Anbar province and long a stronghold of Sunni insurgents and al Qaeda terrorists, the Sahawa, or the Awakening, has come. Sunni tribesmen formerly allied with the insurgency are swelling police ranks, capturing and killing foreign terrorists and native-born anti-Iraqi forces alike. In Ramadi, it appears the Iraqis have shed enough blood to appreciate and crave both stability and freedom. It is slow going, but progress is being made day by day.
Will we eventually see that same yearning for stability, freedom, and peace in a far more complex Baghdad? History tells us that all wars eventually end as a matter of will or a matter of eradication. One side must either be utterly destroyed, or its will to fight must be. This is equally true in both conventional and asymmetrical warfare, one of which the U.S. military has won convincingly in Iraq, and the other, which must eventually be won or lost by the Iraqi people themselves.
The purpose of U.S. forces in Iraq is not to conclusively defeat the various anti-Iraqi factions, but to provide training and material support to Iraqi government forces so that they can win the war. At the same time, we seek to destabilize anti-Iraqi forces and help to provide an environment where political and social change can take root, as we are now seeing in Ramadi and elsewhere.
Our military does not need to "go big" in Iraq, but it does need to "go long," one of the things the Bush Administration has called correctly. We do not need more troops, but we need to utilize the soldiers we do have to train Iraqi forces and provide support for them as necessary in "the long war" to stamp out the insurgency by breaking the enemy's will to fight over time.
Part of that support will be engaging in raids that will on occasion lead to civilian deaths, especially when these civilians harbor anti-Iraqi forces of various stripes. If we don't mature enough to accept the fact that some innocents die in war, then the abandonment policy favored by some will certainly lead to far more civilian deaths through a far more violent civil war and a potential genocide. You can pay a blood debt of comparatively few lives now by continuing the mission, or set the stage for an even bloodier Iraqi future by withdrawing.
This is a cold, hard fact that few on the left will address or even admit. War is cruel by nature, but to abandon an ally while the conflict rages would be the cruelest atrocity of all.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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So just now we are figuring out when you occupy a foriegn country for a long period of time that a lot of the people will begin to hate the occupiers? It is a strange thing about the Bush Administration and many of its backers that even though they are nationalistic themselves and would resent (to understate it) large number of troops from a foreign country occupying the U.S. to impose a government on Americans, they can't seem to comprehend that people in other countries might be also resent the presence of large numbers of occupying soldiers from America supporting a government that America prefers.
This is not to say that it is right that large number of Iraqis resent American soldiers or that the new American supported government is not better than the old, just that it is a very predictable part of human nature that this would happen. But despite the fact it was obvious, Bush managed to overlook it, both in deciding to go to war in the first place and then in deciding how difficult it would be to control the country.
Posted by: Counterfactual at November 21, 2006 12:58 PM (dPxga)
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I read some of the Iraqi blogs and I do get a sense that some of the Iraqis resent our being there, but the resentment is directed as much toward themselves for not being able to 'get it together', in other words, because they need us.
And as they do need us, and as it appears more of them are willing to knuckle under and align with the goal of independence, we need to stay.
The next time I hear about how we need to 'redeploy', I'll need to get an answer to the questions of when we're getting out of Bosnia and whatever could be the reason for going to Darfur. These situations seem to mirror Iraq in some respects save the most vital to me: where is our national interest in Bosnia and Darfur, as opposed to Iraq?
Posted by: Cindi at November 21, 2006 02:11 PM (asVsU)
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So just now we are figuring out when you occupy a foriegn country for a long period of time that a lot of the people will begin to hate the occupiers?
A few years is a "long time"?
The Romans got away with it for hundreds of years. Of course their methods of squelching the whiners were somewhat more extreme than ours.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 21, 2006 02:33 PM (wfN0Q)
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Funny how the Iraqis show their "resentment" "towards the occupiers", fact-boy.
By slaughtering 10s of thousands of women and children with carbombs, by destroying holy mosques, by assassinating politicians, scientists, intellectuals and dissenting religious figures, by kidnapping, torturing and murdering thousands of police, etc.
Its got nothing to do with the occupation, fact boy.
It never did.
Its about filling the vacuum.
Posted by: TMF at November 21, 2006 02:48 PM (+BgNZ)
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"Abandon an ally"? The Iraqi government won't let us go after Al Sadr's thugs in a serious way and tells us to turn them loose when we apprehend one. Looks to me like our "ally" has abandoned us. As in Korea and Vietnam, we are pulling our military punches for political reasons. If that's what the rest of this war is going to be like, we should leave now. Staying just gets more of our guys killed and only postpones the inevitable bloodbath when we leave.
Posted by: Alan Gunn at November 21, 2006 04:46 PM (aHfbX)
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Oh, here's another fact: "then were daft enough to try to fight coalition forces from a home with children inside." Fighting hidden among a civilian population to discourage response because of civilian deaths is called perfidy. It is defined by the Geneva Conventions as a war crime.
Posted by: SDN at November 21, 2006 11:35 PM (FTci1)
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Final Destination
Deja vu,
all over again:
Six passengers were removed from a departing flight Monday at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport and were taken for questioning by police, an airport spokesman said.
The passengers were boarding US Airways Flight 300, bound for Phoenix, around 6:30 p.m. when crew members "saw suspicious activity" by the men and called airport police, said the spokesman, Pat Hogan. Police escorted the men off the plane and took them to be questioned, he said.
A passenger initially raised concerns about the group through a note passed to a flight attendant, said Andrea Rader, a spokeswoman for US Airways. Police were called after the men refused requests by the captain and airport security workers to leave the plane.
The crew described the men as Middle Eastern in appearance, Hogan said, though he didn't immediately know where they were from.
This came just days after Sisayehiticha Dinssa was arrested at Detroit Metropolitan Airport with $79,000 in cash and a computer containing information about nuclear materials and cyanide. He was also traveling to Phoenix.
What might all these suspicious characters be headed for Phoenix?
Old habits die hard.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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FYI, when you click-thru on the "Old habits" link, the
Arizona Monthly article link appears to have expired (the post, my second ever, is over two years old). Chalk it up to link rot.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 21, 2006 10:20 AM (g5Nba)
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That's odd, CY, because I was able to read the link this morning (about 6:30 EST).
Posted by: MikeM at November 21, 2006 01:02 PM (xWG/i)
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Oops, my mistake. I missed that you were talking about the link in the linked post. "Nevermind."
Posted by: MikeM at November 21, 2006 01:06 PM (xWG/i)
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These guys apparently did nothing except engage in their required daily prayer at one of the required daily times.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at November 21, 2006 05:15 PM (4XLP6)
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Well that, and they've admitted to supporting
al Qaeda and Hamas-linked charity called KindHearts that had their
assets frozen for supporting terrorism.
But no big deal, right Doc? Just as long as we are properly respectful of
their rights.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 21, 2006 06:02 PM (HcgFD)
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CY, here's what I found at the link you put up:
"They (the CIA) called [bin Laden] a 'freedom fighter,'" Sahin [one of the imams in question] said. "Then they tell us he is involved in terrorist acts, and they stopped supporting him, and we stopped."
The passenger who turned them in and the security guards who yanked them off the flight didn't do these things because they used to support bin Laden. They did it because the guys were praying. Also, they were looking all Middle Eastern and whatnot.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at November 21, 2006 07:41 PM (4XLP6)
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It's nice to know that there is an airline that takes passenger's concerns seriously. The Imams had to know that their behavior would be troubling to the other passengers.
Either they did it purposefully to frighten people or they just didn't think their strange behavior would cause a stir.
From what I have read at Powerline there is much more to the story than a simple prayer. This makes me think of the old Glenn Campbell song, By the Time I Get to Phoenix We'll Have Jihad.
Posted by: Laura Lee Donoho at November 22, 2006 01:34 AM (X8WNH)
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They're probing defenses.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 22, 2006 04:19 AM (wfN0Q)
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November 20, 2006
Charlie Rangel's Botched Joke
The furor and
continued non-apology over John Kerry's "stuck in Iraq" comment have just subsided, and now New York Democrat Charles Rangel attempts to leverage an equally insulting draft recommendation in an attempt to raise an anti-war cry, using a call for compulsory service in the U.S. military
as a wedge issue:
Rep. Charles B. Rangel (D-N.Y.) has long advocated returning to the draft, but his efforts drew little attention during the 12 years that House Democrats were in the minority. Starting in January, however, he will chair the tax-writing Ways and Means Committee. Yesterday he said "you bet your life" he will renew his drive for a draft.
"I will be introducing that bill as soon as we start the new session," Rangel said on CBS's "Face the Nation." He portrayed the draft, suspended since 1973, as a means of spreading military obligations more equitably and prompting political leaders to think twice before starting wars.
"There's no question in my mind that this president and this administration would never have invaded Iraq, especially on the flimsy evidence that was presented to the Congress, if indeed we had a draft and members of Congress and the administration thought that their kids from their communities would be placed in harm's way," said Rangel, a Korean War veteran. "If we're going to challenge Iran and challenge North Korea and then, as some people have asked, to send more troops to Iraq, we can't do that without a draft."
Lets be very, very clear: Charles Rangel doesn't give a damn about the "equitably" of service in our nation's military, which to date, is over-represented by soldiers who are more rural, wealthy, and better educated than their peers. He instead clings to often disproven lies that the military is disproportionately made up of minorities and the poor.
Rangel willingly lies, but lies with a purpose.
What doubtlessly disappoints Mr. Rangel is that though Americans do not support the direction of the War in Iraq (as was evidenced in the recent election), they have refused to engage in the massive protests and demonstrations that were key to the anti-war campaign during the Vietnam era. Rangel's primary goal in his call to reinstate the draft is to gin up protests like those of 30 years ago.
Rangel's tactics are particularly loathsome in that he seeks to use our all-volunteer military as the whipping boy for his anti-war politics. He would attempt to pit draft-age Americans and their family members against those who honorably joined the military of their own volition.
I have nothing but contempt for Rangel's transparent demagoguery. He does not wish to strengthen America's proud all-volunteer military, but instead seeks to lessen its will, against its wishes, and against its needs.
Rangel's call to reinstate the draft is cynical, unwanted, and like Kerry's comments before, a back-handed slap at those who serve our nation of their own free will.
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Don't question the ability of conscripted soldiers to serve their country in front of Charlie. He was drafted to fight in Korea and, therefore, has ABSOLUTE MORAL AUTHORITY. It scares me to no end that this man will soon hold the purse strings to operational funding for our troops in Iraq and Afganistan. Would someone this cynical and self-serving cut off funding to our troops in battle, just to forward his political agenda? You bet he would.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at November 20, 2006 01:03 PM (oC8nQ)
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Bend over here it comes again? You mean the mischaracterizations?
Posted by: Fred at November 20, 2006 02:06 PM (jSBbA)
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It's a characteristic of the left everywhere to bend everything to their use and abandon these things when they are of no use to anyone.
This is an attempt to bend the military to their political goals no matter what the damage to the military.
I was in the Army in the mid seventies when the transition was being made to an all volunteer force. This was a Good Thing. We have a much better Army today.
Posted by: Lee at November 20, 2006 03:02 PM (s5nUf)
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Fred, we can hope for the best out of Congress for the next two years, but its the troops on the ground who are really going to get it in the end. (pun intended)
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at November 20, 2006 03:25 PM (oC8nQ)
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"This is an attempt to bend the military to their political goals no matter what the damage to the military."
Funny I thought you were talking about
St. McCain there...where are those 20,000 troops going to come from again?
Posted by: Fred at November 20, 2006 04:28 PM (jSBbA)
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Is there an MRI on file somewhere that proves Charlie Rangel has a brain?
There is no doubt in anyone's mind who has served in the Army that included conscripts and the Army of volunteers that the all volunteer force is head and shoulders above in professionalism and lethality. That is not to say that many conscripts were great soldiers, but far too many were not. Let the days of the conscripted Army remain in the past so long as volunteers continue to step forward.
Rangel says he doubts there would be war if
"members of Congress and the administration thought their kids from their communities would be placed in harm's way." Did that stop Truman from sending Charlie? Don't the representatives and senators represent the kids from their districts/states whether or not they are kin?
Give me a break, Charlie... I was born at night, but not last night!
Posted by: Old Soldier at November 20, 2006 05:34 PM (owAN1)
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Ok the Democrats are fast on there way to defining Moonbat to everyone in the country.
Last time Rangel tried this he got 2 votes but this time
he'll get 4. And in doing so further fragment the Democratic party.
Ok Dems you won now lets see your hand.
Posted by: NortonPete at November 20, 2006 05:55 PM (fVuwW)
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Wake up 'Fred', the military has more than the 150,000 troops in Iraq. If they don't then you had better bend over for real. Some banana republic will attack and take over the United States.
The Militay is streatched too thin was only a campaign rant by the Anti-American left (aka Democrats), and no where close to the truth. Haven't you figured out yet that you were lied to by the dim's?
Anyone with half a brain (which is more than Rangel) has figured this out in two weeks of watching the 'winners' that someone screwed up big time by electing the unqualified to lead. So far it's been real good for the comedian's, but bad for everyone else.
It's been more than a laugh a day and i'm looking forward to two years of comedy. It does make a person feel good to laugh at the stupidity displayed so far by the dim's.
Posted by: Scrapiron at November 20, 2006 06:25 PM (Eodj2)
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"The Militay[sic] is streatched [sic] too thin was only a campaign rant by the Anti-American left (aka Democrats)"
Posted by: Fred at November 20, 2006 08:00 PM (jSBbA)
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Then explain McCain's Statement.
From where I sit
I know the component of the military I serve in is stretched thinner than ever. Me, I'm with Rangle; maybe or maybe not for the same reasons. I just think it's ever able body persons obligation to serve, especially if they want to claim Government benefits like Pell Grants and the like.
If you think this last two weeks has been a disaster for the Democratic Party, you need to go back and examine what happened when the Republicans took over in the mid-90's. They too had a leadership battle in which Newt Gingrich, as Speaker of the House, backed a losing candidate for Majority Leader. As for Rangle bringing up a Bill he knows has no chance of passing, see Republican Flag Burning and Gay Marriage Amendments.
P.S. Commenting has been hell today, CY.
Posted by: Fred at November 20, 2006 08:22 PM (jSBbA)
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Good Job CY. Needed to be said.
Posted by: brando at November 20, 2006 10:21 PM (K+VjK)
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The pinko hate-America-first cabal has penetrated the upper echelons of the military:
Retired General Barry McCaffrey:
“The country is not at war. The United States armed forces and the CIA are at war. So we are asking our military to sustain a level of effort that we have not resourced,” he told Army Times.
“That’s how to break the Army is to keep it deployed above the rate at which it can be sustained,” he said. “There’s no free lunch here. The Army and the Marine Corps and Special Operations Command are too small and badly resourced to carry out this national security strategy.”
Retired General William Odom:
"Our leaders do not act because their reputations are at stake. The public does not force them to act because it is blinded by the president's conjured set of illusions: that we are reducing terrorism by fighting in Iraq, creating democracy there, preventing the spread of nuclear weapons, making Israel more secure, not allowing our fallen soldiers to have died in vain, and others.
"But reality no longer can be avoided. It is beyond U.S. power to prevent sectarian violence in Iraq, the growing influence of Iran throughout the region, the probable spread of Sunni-Shiite strife to neighboring Arab states, the eventual rise to power of the anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr or some other anti-American leader in Baghdad, and the spread of instability beyond Iraq.
"These realities get worse every day that our forces remain in Iraq. They can't be wished away by clever diplomacy or by leaving our forces in Iraq for several more years.
=========================
I for one will shake your hand sincerely when you leave Clown World. It's not so hard as you think.
Posted by: Earl at November 21, 2006 12:43 AM (Y9zdM)
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Brando! We meet again. I have a sort of riddle for you:
If you volunteer to ride in a PT boat while Viet Cong are firing at you, and come home decorated and lauded, you have not acted dishonorably.
If you come to believe that a war is unjust, you owe it to your country to speak out. Further points if history exonerates your belief, eg Viet Nam is a vibrant capitalist state and never imposed a communist threat to anyone, thereby demonstrating that our soldiers did in fact die in vain.
If someone then accuses you of "hating our troops" -- well, what would you call such a person?
Don't give me any "oh he didn't actually go to Cambodia" crap, whatever the minutia, this story is true. Honestly I don't much want Kerry as my president. Nevertheless it is treacherous and supremely unpatriotic to smear his name in this way.
Posted by: Earl at November 21, 2006 12:56 AM (Y9zdM)
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I just think it's ever able body persons obligation to serve, especially if they want to claim Government benefits like Pell Grants and the like.
Or voice an opinion that has "moral authority"?
Two years swabbing latrines will certainly make most potheads military experts ;->
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 21, 2006 02:42 AM (wfN0Q)
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Posted by Earl at November 21, 2006 12:56 AM
Hmm, riddle huh?
If you come home and call all your compatriots 'Baby Killers' and 'Murderers' saying they were incompetent (not the leaders, the men on the ground).
If years later you say almost the same thing and then say the men and women who fail to get educated go to iraq,
THEN you have acted dishonorably.
His service did not disqualify him, his actions after did.
Posted by: Retired Navy at November 21, 2006 06:13 AM (y67bA)
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I just think it's ever able body persons obligation to serve, especially if they want to claim Government benefits like Pell Grants and the like
Posted by Fred at November 20, 2006 08:22 PM
At what cost Fred? Lets be generous and say 10% of the people graduating every year join the military. What is the budget for the payroll alone?
Now multiply that by a factor of 10. Throw in the cost of buildings and housing, medical, dental, transportation, increased heating, electric, gas, supplies, etc...
Then take a look at how many loosers will be coming in, what it will take to discharge them, bogging down the system and giving a whole lot of people that just weren't cut out for military life a black mark by giving them the 'Big Chicken Dinner' (bad conduct discharge) they would not have otherwise have gotten.
It didn't work then and it won't work now.
Posted by: Retired Navy at November 21, 2006 06:18 AM (BuYeH)
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Retired Navy,
I can see your points, and I respect your opinion. It's kinda funny we're arguing over a bill that's never going to be passed anyways. It be nice if there was some way we could get more young people to serve. Maybe a saner foreign policy would be a start.
Purple Avenger,
Two years swabbing latrines will certainly make most potheads military experts ;->
Actually I'm half way to retirement and the task force
I serve on in the Guard deals more with the War on Terrorism
in real life than any of the chatterers 'round here. Nice "pothead" zing, be sure to rotate in there pinko/commie/fag/hippie, let us all know how series a thinker you are.
Posted by: Fred at November 21, 2006 07:28 AM (jSBbA)
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Retired Navy:
Can you cite me where he said "baby killers"? Don't give me the 'well known' answer, it's well known only in your echo chamber.
Anyway, be that as it may, actions speak louder than words, and thus his actions were honorable.
It's just ridiculous that you would think Kerry dislikes the troops, and made a joke at their expense recently. You know perfectly well he meant Bush is bogged down in Iraq.
You're delousional.
Posted by: Earl at November 21, 2006 11:37 AM (Y9zdM)
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It's just ridiculous that you would think Kerry dislikes the troops, and made a joke at their expense recently. You know perfectly well he meant Bush is bogged down in Iraq.
Really? Is that why Kerry said in 1972:
They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.
He directly accused U.S. soldiers of being rapists, mutilators, torturers, sadists and murderers (did I miss anything?) based upon the false testimony of men who, in some cases, were never in the military.
More recently, he issues a "I'm sorry you are too stupid to understand what I meant" non-apology, and to add insult to injury, had the unmitigated gall to run on his web site an editorial about the comment that said "
Kerry's Remark: Right either way."
Right either way. Yeah. He's
real sorry.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 21, 2006 12:02 PM (g5Nba)
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deals more with the War on Terrorism in real life than any of the chatterers 'round here.
Sorry I was mundane 70's Carter era Cold War RA Fred. I wasn't aware cold war "doesn't count" anymore in the eyes of the left.
Thanks for the crypto-PC update on our status.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 21, 2006 12:22 PM (wfN0Q)
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You're delousional.
Posted by Earl at November 21, 2006 11:37 AM
Ok, I'll agree he didn't say "Baby Killers".
But look at CY's post above.
You are the one who is delusional. He has hated the military since he was in it.
Posted by: Retired Navy at November 21, 2006 01:12 PM (nFSnk)
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CY: those are atrocious acts, and he would be immoral not to cover them up. "Supporting the troops" does not equal allowing crime. I guess you saw different when you were there? Oh sorry, you have soccer injuries and you can't serve.
Oh look at this:
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/home_page/275.php?nid=&id=&pnt=275&lb=hmpg1
74% of Shiites and 91% of Sunnis want us to leave Iraq within a year. All we need to do is stay the course and everything will come out right. Right?
How's the weather there in Clown World?
The jig's up CY. You're either going to suck it up and leave Clown World or spend the rest of your life lying to yourself pretending like the pinko Democrats spoiled your perfect war, just like 'Nam.
Say, what was the point of Nam by the way? To prevent communism from spreading like wildfire, was it not?
Posted by: Earl at November 21, 2006 05:07 PM (Y9zdM)
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Bah. I meant immoral TO cover them up.
Posted by: Earl at November 21, 2006 05:08 PM (Y9zdM)
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Say, what was the point of Nam by the way?
At the end it was to prevent the impending slaughter of millions. Alas, the democrats sealed their fate and ~3 million died as a result.
Makes you proud doesn't it Earl. I imagine that 3M figure could easily be topped in Iraq.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 22, 2006 12:34 AM (wfN0Q)
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No, the point of VietNam was to prevent the spread of communism throughout Asia. Perhaps you should read Wikipedia or some place about the Gulf on Tonkin. The perpetrators instigated a war they couldn't finish on a bogus pretext. Hey, that sounds familiar doesn't it? But of course, your view is that we just didn't stay in VietNam long enough, the same way you'll feel when we leave Iraq humiliated. In Clown World, everything bad is Carter or Clinton or Kerry or the Democrat's fault, whereas all things good emanate from the GOP. It must be nice to give that brain a nice long vacation...
Posted by: Earl at November 22, 2006 01:55 AM (Y9zdM)
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3,000,000 dead Earl. Their blood is all over democrat hands.
Spin all you want, but the body count was real and directly attributable to a feckless democrat congress in 1975.
Even Carter had to recognize the gruesome result and start admitting the boat people.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 22, 2006 02:16 AM (wfN0Q)
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And Earl is proven wrong once again. Take Monty Python's advice from the Holy Grail Earl - Run away! Run Away!
Oh - of course you are speaking of the Domino Theory? Or maybe it was the theory that Viet Nam was a testing ground for both Soviet and American military tactics. Or maybe we were there because the French (who RAN AWAY) asked us for help. Don't rely too much on Wiki Earl - lots of bad stuff there - make sure you corroborate Crusty-the-Earl.
BTW Earl - be sure to go back to the other thread - I tore you a new one again.
Posted by: Specter at November 22, 2006 05:51 PM (ybfXM)
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And Earl - the reason we didn't win in Viet Nam - Could it have anything to do with the fact that MacNamara tied the hands of the troops - would not let them do anything without DC's permission? Got another Crusty-the-Earl theory on that? This is such good entertainment....
Posted by: Specter at November 22, 2006 05:53 PM (ybfXM)
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You boneheads. Both cases: war foisted on false premises, then spins out of control, the leaders propose plan after plan which fall flat, yet until the end you are waving your pompoms and talking about how even though the war is not at all what it was started for, we have to win. Another poll showed that Shia and Sunni alike want us out, and by great margins.
Then because almost everybody believes Nam and Iraq to be disasters, you retreat into your yurts of delusion where the the media et al is feeding disinformation. Nobody believes anymore that we should have stayed in Nam except you fringe elements in Clown World who don't matter much anymore anyway. Similarly, even the architects of Iraq like Perle and Adelman are in CYA mode, and yet you think "oh if only we'd support the troops and make one more bombing sortie we will emerge victorious and the sunni and shias will kiss and form a vibrant democracy".
Really, try stepping out of Clown World. It's not too bad.
Posted by: Earl at November 23, 2006 01:35 AM (Y9zdM)
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What Earl, no facts again? just empty rhetoric based on your POV. Good....Where's the Dems plan man? LOL. You voted 'em in. Good luck with that. They are just like you - lots of talk and no action. Lots of talk and no balls - just like your Crusty-the-Earl. You get shot down every time you post and you keep coming back for more. You sure fit the definition of troll though. LOL.
Posted by: Specter at November 23, 2006 04:49 PM (ybfXM)
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war foisted on false premises
Are you on drugs?
Vietnam went down, Cambodia followed (3M dead total), the Soviet saw its opportunity and moved on Afghanistan, then we went on to have a decade of problems in central America because the Soviet knew it was OK to push harder now and the Americans wouldn't resist too hard.
The domino theory was real. If their economic basis wasn't so screwed propelling the collapse we'd really be in deep do-do right now. We got lucky.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 24, 2006 01:16 AM (wfN0Q)
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Advocating Assured Destruction
It appears Jules Crittenden agrees with the general theory I wrote about Friday in
Another Direction , where I advocated making Iran and Syria "feel the pain" for being active state sponsors of terrorism. Crittenden
writes:
An erroneous assumption has been made by the Iranians and by many in the west that because our ground forces are hyper-extended in Iraq, and Iranian nuke facilities are buried deep, there is nothing the United States can do about an Iranian nuclear program. This is not true. There is no need to invade or occupy Iran. We do not want to do that. We would prefer to see the Iranian people's desire for free elections honored, but that doesn't appear likely any time soon.
What we have to do to influence Iran is explain that if Iran does not begin to cooperate with the international community, we will substantially isolate Iran and destroy its means of supporting terrorism and pursuing nuclear weapons. This can be done incrementally, to give the Iranians an opportunity to reconsider their policy. Our Navy, not hyper-extended in Iraq, can blockade their ports. Our Air Force, also not hyper-extended in Iraq, can begin reducing their terrorist-support infrastructure. Things like oil fields, refineries and roads leading toward Syria and suspected nuclear sites. This can continue ... pretty much as long as the Iranians want it too.
While I didn't specify it, it was primarily U.S. Air Force and Naval air power I had in mind when I advocated the reduction of Iran's naval and marine forces. Single strikes with precision munitions could destroy their few corvettes and frigates (their three destroyers are so useless they aren't worth wasting bombs on), and their remaining fleet, which is composed of patrol boats and number small craft, would be easily destroyed with cluster munitions. Only their small marine outposts near the Straits of Hormuz may require SpecOps insertions, and that is purely speculative. Air power alone may suffice.
The other targets, the oil fields, refineries, roads, and nuclear sites, are clearly air power targets that Iran is nearly defenseless against, even with the purchase of the low-to-medium altitude TOR-1 SAMs from Russia.
I've said it before and I will say it again and again because it bears repeating: terrorism will only be supported by states for as long as they see it as a cost-effective way to achieve their foreign policy goals. When the cost of supporting terrorism becomes too high, the state support of terrorism will cease or be greatly curtailed, making it far more difficult for terrorist groups in Iraq, Lebanon, and Gaza to survive.
Update: I missed this earlier, but even the L.A. Times is getting on the bomb Iran bandwagon:
If Tehran establishes dominance in the region, then the battlefield might move to Southeast Asia or Africa or even parts of Europe, as the mullahs would try to extend their sway over other Muslim peoples. In the end, we would no doubt win, but how long this contest might last and what toll it might take are anyone's guess.
The only way to forestall these frightening developments is by the use of force. Not by invading Iran as we did Iraq, but by an air campaign against Tehran's nuclear facilities. We have considerable information about these facilities; by some estimates they comprise about 1,500 targets. If we hit a large fraction of them in a bombing campaign that might last from a few days to a couple of weeks, we would inflict severe damage. This would not end Iran's weapons program, but it would certainly delay it.
What should be the timing of such an attack? If we did it next year, that would give time for U.N. diplomacy to further reveal its bankruptcy yet would come before Iran will have a bomb in hand (and also before our own presidential campaign). In time, if Tehran persisted, we might have to do it again.
Can President Bush take such action after being humiliated in the congressional elections and with the Iraq war having grown so unpopular? Bush has said that history's judgment on his conduct of the war against terror is more important than the polls. If Ahmadinejad gets his finger on a nuclear trigger, everything Bush has done will be rendered hollow. We will be a lot less safe than we were when Bush took office.
Finally, wouldn't such a U.S. air attack on Iran inflame global anti-Americanism? Wouldn't Iran retaliate in Iraq or by terrorism? Yes, probably. That is the price we would pay. But the alternative is worse.
After the Bolshevik takeover of Russia in 1917, a single member of Britain's Cabinet, Winston Churchill, appealed for robust military intervention to crush the new regime. His colleagues weighed the costs — the loss of soldiers, international derision, revenge by Lenin — and rejected the idea.
The costs were avoided, and instead the world was subjected to the greatest man-made calamities ever. Communism itself was to claim perhaps 100 million lives, and it also gave rise to fascism and Nazism, leading to World War II. Ahmadinejad wants to be the new Lenin. Force is the only thing that can stop him.
Are we beginning to detect a theme, folks? Iran will not comply with economic or political pressure, and so the remaining option is military in nature, and that military option is best expresses in an air power war again key Iranian targets.
One thing that these men are leaving out, however, is what may happen as a result of air strikes targeting Iran's nuclear facilities and other infrastructure sites.
Critics of such an attack would point out that as a result, Hezbollah and Hamas would like begin another intense rocket campaign on Israel.
I think this is entirely correct, and entirely beside the point.
Despite all the bluster over Hezbollah's last war with Israel earlier this year, Israel suffered very few casualties. I think the figure was just 157 deaths, most of them soldiers, in Lebanon. In opposition, Hezbollah lost as many as half of their armed fighters in southern Lebanon, and their infrastructure was wrecked. Hamas and Hezbollah can indeed launch attacks, but the retaliatory strikes from Israel will certainly cause more damage.
More troubling is the thought that an attack on Iran may trigger and Iranian ground invasion of Iraq. Iran has a military of more than 300,000, most of then conscripts, and they have long-range rockets that may cause significant Iraqi civilian casualties.
That said, any Iranian ground invasion of Iraq would be suicidal for the Iranian troops involved. They have no air cover to speak of, and the invasion would result in a larger scale repeat of 1991's Highway of Death as they are decimated by U.S. Air Force and U.S. Navy bombers. Such a crushing loss could hurt the mullahcracy, and so even as fanatical as they are, they would most likely not go this route. Iran wages asymmetrical terrorist campaign precisely to avoid the crushing losses their over-hyped military would take on a modern battlefield.
It increasingly appears that our best option for lasting peace in Iraq and the wider Middle East is a conventional air campaign to reduce Iran's asymmetrical warfare capabilities.
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Posted by: Fred at November 20, 2006 12:25 PM (jSBbA)
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Still waiting for Fred's alternative approach.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 20, 2006 01:24 PM (wfN0Q)
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Wait, are you asking for an argument as to why we
shouldn't bomb Iran? War is not the first answer, Purple Avenger, it is the last. It is what happens when all other options have disappeared. Even Raygun recognized this.
If you were waiting for the alternative approach that was asked for the other day,
I gave you a reading assignment. I'm not going to condense a book into a sound bite for you lizard brains.
Posted by: Fred at November 20, 2006 01:38 PM (jSBbA)
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Wait, are you asking for an argument as to why we shouldn't bomb Iran? War is not the first answer, Purple Avenger, it is the last. It is what happens when all other options have disappeared. Even Raygun recognized this.
Alternative #1: Bomb Iran.
Alternative #2: "War is not the answer."
#2 is such a clear and well-stated plan for action in dealing with the Iran's nuclear proliferation. Who could possibly disagree with going that route? "War is not the answer." Great answer!
Posted by: MikeZ at November 20, 2006 02:00 PM (c5sWc)
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MikeZ,
Who said
"War is not the answer." I didn't. I said war is not the first answer. If we are so worried about nuclear proliferation, then why did we just give the go ahead to India (not a member of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty)?
Posted by: Fred at November 20, 2006 02:14 PM (jSBbA)
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It's not that complicated. There is no desire within the military establishment, the administration or the general population to widen the conflict we find ourselves in. You cannot undue what has been done in Iraq so an attack on Iran is a widening of the conflict.
Posted by: NYNick at November 20, 2006 02:19 PM (vgzEN)
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You do realize that when the Iranians retaliate in Iraq, they will not conveniently line up on a highway in mass numbers for us to kill them easily don't you? They will infiltrate large numbers of small groups to cooperate with their fellow Shiites in Iraq to take out U.S. patrols while supplying mass quantities of weapons to anti-U.S. Iraqi politicians like Sadr. Since we are barely keeping a lid on the situation in Iraq now, what do you think will happen when the Iranians apply this extra anti-U.S. flame to the pot?
Posted by: Counterfactual at November 20, 2006 04:32 PM (Aat1i)
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They will infiltrate large numbers of small groups
Not if spooky has anything to say about it...
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 21, 2006 12:27 PM (wfN0Q)
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Who said "War is not the answer." I didn't. I said war is not the first answer. If we are so worried about nuclear proliferation, then why did we just give the go ahead to India (not a member of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty)?
Posted by Fred at November 20, 2006 02:14 PM
If you can't comprehend the difference between India and Iran then really this entire conversations is absurd.
Be that as it may, I'd like to post a question in return. Just when is war a viable answer? Yes, it is not a good first response. But we've gone through years of negotiations, violated agreements, and ignored offers to get to this point.
When was war with Iraq the answer? After all, we had gone through years of cease fire violations, assassinations attempts (by them against our leaders), ignored resolutions, violent repression of Iraqis, blood money paid to Palestinian bombers, on and on and on. And yet, war was not the 'first answer' in Iraq either.
So, given that war should not be the 'first answer', when is it applicable? And the answer 'when Tel Aviv disappears in a mushroom cloud as promised over and over by President Ahmadinejad' is not acceptable on any level.
Posted by: Michael in Colorado at November 21, 2006 05:31 PM (IdAft)
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I've linked to you here: http://consul-at-arms.blogspot.com/2006/11/re-advocating-assured-destruction.html
Posted by: Consul-At-Arms at November 21, 2006 06:10 PM (naelK)
11
So, given that war should not be the 'first answer', when is it applicable?
When a democrat president orders it ;->
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 22, 2006 12:36 AM (wfN0Q)
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November 17, 2006
Another Direction
John Donovan at Argghhh! reposts an email from a Captain in Iraq that understands what it takes to
win the war in Iraq (I highly suggest reading the post in its entirety):
Massive firepower brought down on any transgressor is the answer. Sometimes you need to use a sledgehammer to crack a walnut if you want people to pay attention and learn the correct lessons in life. If an IED blows up outside someones house and the homeowners tell you that they don't know anything about, bulldoze the house and salt the ground. After you do that two or three times, Iraqis will shoot the terrorists themselves to protect their homes. I realize that this may not be totally in keeping with some people's concept of "the American way of war", but if we are in it to win it, we need to take all the steps required to totally destroy the terrorists ability to make war on us and turn the population against them. Right now, because of our kid glove approach, there is no threat to the average Iraqi that helps the terrorists or turns a blind eye. We have to make it painful to the point that the Iraqi people say, "These Americans are serious about winning and they won't stop until they have won."
This comment indirectly highlights a current failure of the Bush Administration that I've heard elsewhere; the President has been trying to win in Iraq without committing to really fighting a war.
Let our soldiers use their massive advantages in firepower, training, and communications to take the fight to the enemy. Quit trying to fight a "nice" war. Such weakness does not result in a victory; to win a war the other side must realize that they cannot hope to win. It should go without saying, but if the other side doesn't feel defeated, then it isn't be defeated. Enable our soldiers to rely on their training and instincts and remove the overly cumbersome rules of engagement that restrict our soldiers to the point they are fighting a defensive war.
Towards that same end, and picking up where I left off in the previous post, Syria and Iran need to be made to feel the pain for their continued state support of terrorism.
Countries like Iran and Syria support terrorism because the see it as a cost-effective way of projecting foreign policy. We have the capability—economic, political, and military—to make this support extremely counter-productive.
In Syria's case, Assad's regime is particularly vulnerable to economic and political, particularly is Iran is dealt with first.
Iran, with much more strategic importance and a larger and more modern military, is a tough nut to crack, but indeed, one that can be cracked. Orson Scott Card makes a good suggestion when he mentions taking our Iran's capability to threaten Persian Gulf shipping.
The five ships operating in Iran's Navy—two corvettes and three frigates—are obsolete and barely functional, and are almost only symbolic in value. The 69 patrol craft making up the rest of their fleet stationed at six naval bases are highly vulnerable to air attack. Considering that the Persian Gulf is extremely shallow (averaging a depth of just 50 meters), their few submarines, which only have mine-laying (no torpedo or cruise missile) capability are also little more than targets.
Other Iranian facilities, including naval and marine forces stations at small Iranian-held islands and abandoned oil platforms along international sea lanes, could also be quickly overwhelmed or destroyed.
Break Iran's ability to influence or control the flow of shipping in the Persian Gulf, and you've essentially removed Iran's greatest political bargaining chip outside of their fledgling nuclear program.
Declare to Iran and the world that the destruction of their ersatz fleet was consistent with Article 51 of the U.N. Charter and in direct response to Iran's supplying the Medhi Army with Iranian-made munitions used to attack U.S forces in Iraq.
Remind Iran that continued support of Shia insurgencies in Iraq would be grounds for further attacks on more vulnerable targets, including Iran's nuclear program.
Iran is far more vulnerable and fragile than it's blustery rhetoric supposes, and it seems time to remind them that the continued support of terrorism does not come without an intolerably high price, and one that we are willing to make them pay.
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1
CY,
What do you think the Iranians would do if we attacked their facilities? It's not an academic point. The most likely result would be an attack against Israel. Probably along two or even three fronts. They would mobilize Hezzbollah in Lebanon and Syria and could potentially even enlist Egypt to join in. In the end, that may be the best available option, an all out war in the region that definitively settles most of the intractable issues there but it's not something we should consider without also considering the risks. The country would support a war of this kind if it was told the truth about the potential pitfalls.
Posted by: NYNick at November 17, 2006 05:23 PM (vgzEN)
2
Last I heard, the Iranians had purchased Kilo class submarines from the Russians.
Since when do those not have torpedo or cruise missile capabilities?
Posted by: SGT Jeff (USAR) at November 17, 2006 05:25 PM (yiMNP)
3
The big problem is Europe. They get a HUGE percent of their oil from Iran--and when that flow is cut back (they don't have to stopt the flow completely), that's when the problems begin. The last CRS papers I read, Iran could cut production by almost half and limp through any additional sanctions for at least 8 months--it was estimated that Europe would suffer catastrophic economic failure from such a oil cut in less than three.
As for the subs, he's right, Iran is upgrading and many diesel subs are difficult to find and track when running on batteries (and have the improved screws). If Iran does lay any of those mines, oil spec prices will go through the roof and insurance on the tankers (which few people realize also affects the price of oil).
Even if the government is overthrown (a distinct possibility), the ensuing chaos will hammer the US and Europe for at least six months--quite possibly more--and once again, the same economic problems raise their ugly head.
I agree though, we do need to show a LOT of unhindered force against all of our foes at this point--but I don't think we have the stomach for it and I know Europe doesn't. And even though I could care less what Europe thinks about us, I know our economy will also tank when Europe takes a header off the high dive (though despite all their power-hype, the numbers show that we can survive such a European economic collapse better than the EU itself can). All said, we have painted ourselves into an awful corner that we won't get out of without terrible losses--in more ways than one.
Posted by: WB at November 17, 2006 07:11 PM (7ctfl)
4
What do you think the Iranians would do if we attacked their facilities?
What did Saddam do when the Israel leveled Osirak?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 17, 2006 10:44 PM (l8HpH)
5
Saddam's response? Iraqi scientists Khidir Hamza and Imad Khadduri tell it (from Wikipedia):
"…actually, what Israel [did] is that it got out the immediate danger out of the way. But it created a much larger danger in the longer range. What happened is that Saddam ordered us — we were 400… scientists and technologists running the program. And when they bombed that reactor out, we had also invested $400 million. And the French reactor and the associated plans were from Italy. When they bombed it out we became 7,000 with a $10 billion investment for a secret, much larger underground program to make bomb material by enriching uranium. We dropped the reactor out totally, which was the plutonium for making nuclear weapons, and went directly into enriching uranium… They [Israel] estimated we'd make 7 kg [15 lb] of plutonium a year, which is enough for one bomb. And they get scared and bombed it out. Actually it was much less than this, and it would have taken a much longer time. But the program we built later in secret would make six bombs a year."
Iran would probably react similarly. They would accelerate their nuclear program, decentralize it even further, and take it deeper underground. That, coupled with the myriad of other downsides (unleashing Hezbollah on Israel, ramping up militia attacks on our soldiers in Iraq, etc) make attacking Iran a really unwise idea.
Posted by: Arbotreeist at November 17, 2006 11:56 PM (N8M1W)
6
Saddam's response? Iraqi scientists Khidir Hamza and Imad Khadduri tell it...
And what did that response get Saddam?
Its looking like a prison cell, and an invitation to a tall tree with a short rope hanging from it sometime soon.
One Ohio can deal with all of Iran if it ever comes down to it. All it takes is a US president with the stones to know when the gig is up and its time to do it.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 18, 2006 04:17 AM (l8HpH)
7
"Massive firepower ... is the answer."
- You still haven't got it! (Seems, you ever will) Firepower is the problem, not the solution! In the modern asymmetric wars (not army vs. army, but army vs. insurgents) the defeat of the armies was never caused by the lack of firepower (cf. the French army in Vietnam and Algeria, the US-Army in Vietnam, the British army in Northern Ireland). The more firepower the more support for the insurgents! - Or do you want to terminate the Iraqui population in order to 'liberate' it?
"Sometimes you need to use a sledgehammer to crack a walnut if you want people to pay attention and learn the correct lessons in life. If an IED blows up outside someones house and the homeowners tell you that they don't know anything about, bulldoze the house and salt the ground."
- These people didn't ask you to come to their country! Wouldn't you use IEDs if Iranian tanks roared in the streets of Houston to bring you "freedom"?
Posted by: he at November 18, 2006 11:04 AM (+J+iW)
8
Wouldn't you use IEDs if Iranian tanks roared in the streets of Houston to bring you "freedom"?
It would depend on why they were there. Somehow, I suspect it wouldn't be to depose a despised dictator and allow for free elections though.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 18, 2006 01:05 PM (l8HpH)
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Excellent suggestions. Good luck finding a US President willing to try any of them.
We don't fight wars like that anymore. we CAN'T. we have lost the political and civic will.
Posted by: Barry at November 18, 2006 06:34 PM (kKjaJ)
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I've linked to you here: http://consul-at-arms.blogspot.com/2006/11/re-another-direction.html
Posted by: Consul-At-Arms at November 18, 2006 06:59 PM (eip9T)
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One Ohio can deal with all of Iran if it ever comes down to it. All it takes is a US president with the stones to know when the gig is up and its time to do it.
Well, I suppose we could fulfill the fantasy of many right wingers and just nuke the entire country, killing millions of people in Iran and neighboring areas. That would sure show 'em.
Posted by: Arbotreeist at November 18, 2006 07:36 PM (N8M1W)
12
fulfill the fantasy of many right wingers and just nuke the entire country
I hope it doesn't come to that. I am however willing to entertain the possibility.
So what's your plan should everything else fail? Losing major western cities doesn't seem like a "plan" to me.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 18, 2006 08:02 PM (l8HpH)
13
Yeah, I kinda hope it doesn't come to that too. All else being equal, I think I'd prefer that we not kill millions of people. God knows the liberal MSM would be yakking on and on about crap like radiation sickness and massive human misery on a biblical scale, and I just don't need waste my beautiful mind listening to that.
Posted by: Arbotreeist at November 18, 2006 08:43 PM (N8M1W)
14
Months ago now, some contributor [I'm going on memory here] on NRO's "The Corner" saw what the current slow-motion escalation might ultimately lead to. He said he dared not say the word openly online yet; he called it "the G word." He concluded, "Please, God, let it not come to that."
But I fear it will, because the drastic means necessary to avoid "the G word" are unlikely to be employed even by a Republican U.S. President, certainly not the newly-neutered G.W., let alone any future Democrat. The drastic means required are unlikely to be supported by any future P.M. in the U.K., and would only be supported by the current P.M. in Australia, John Howard, but probably not by any plausible successor.
We could, for example, bomb all of Iran's nuclear sites and half of their oil production facilities, and make the continued existence of the other half of the oil contingent on submission to ruthlessly invasive inspections of any future civilian nuclear facilities.
(For those who fear the economic fallout, consider: That oil will be used as a weapon against us anyway, no matter what. Why not choose our own time to remove Iran's "queen" from the chessboard, instead of waiting for Ahmadinejad and Chavez to prepare their own sudden stoppage? Taking the initiative in this way has psychological advantages as well: Iran has drunk too long from their bottle of "invincibility by petrodollars"; the threat of removing their entire economy from under their feet would be a quick path to sobriety, even at the cost of a recession which, I repeat, would eventually happen at a time of Ahmadinejad's choosing anyway! But I digress.)
Such drastic moves could certainly stop Iran's nuclear production for a long, long time, and degrade their military preparedness. (Both nuclear weapons research and large militaries require MONEY; without oil, Iran has none.) It could potentially result in the overthrow of the mullahs.
But...it isn't going to happen.
Therefore, Iran will get nukes. They will use one in Tel Aviv as soon as it is practical to do so: No reasonable person has any doubt of THAT. It may not be "practical," according to their definition of the word, until they have twenty or more nukes in their arsenal, since they'll probably try to forestall an American response to the destruction of Israel by threatening one or more U.S. cities with terrorist nukes.
But the U.S. will ultimately respond anyway, before or after the destruction of Israel, which (let's face it) the U.S. will simply not allow, even if (just as obviously) Europe would.
So Iran will therefore set off a terrorist nuke, or a bioweapon, or just send agents to hose down shopping malls with AK-47's, to deter U.S. forces abroad by sowing chaos at home.
The U.S. will then be forced to take one of two options: Either escalate gradually, destroying bits of Iran at a time with conventional weapons and eventually nukes, while Iran responds with escalating non-conventional terror attacks, or else go directly to maximum devastation.
To decide between the two options, they'll bring in the games theorists, who'll tell them that it's a choice between (a.) nuclear tit-for-tatting over months until there are tens of millions dead on both sides, or (b.) just going all out immediately, in which case there'll be millions dead only on the Iranian side.
So, finally, the U.S. will go all out. There will be a lot of double-flashes in a short period of time, and a short while thereafter, no living being larger than a housecat will still have a heartbeat in Persia.
Welcome to the twenty-first century, chock full of hope and promise.
Posted by: R.C.Hamrick at November 18, 2006 10:20 PM (De35R)
15
So, finally, the U.S. will go all out. There will be a lot of double-flashes in a short period of time, and a short while thereafter, no living being larger than a housecat will still have a heartbeat in Persia.
Here's another right-winger just champing at the bit for nuclear war with Iran. Right on, bro. Eff those Muslims. Turn it into a parking lot, I say. The hell with civilian casualties. They're all terrorists anyway, when you get right down to it.
Posted by: Arbotreeist at November 18, 2006 10:29 PM (N8M1W)
16
The U.S. will then be forced to take one of two options: Either escalate gradually, destroying bits of Iran at a time with conventional weapons...
Actually its much simpler than that when you understand the mechanics of the Iranian economy.
They import ~80% of their gasoline even though they're lousy with crude.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 18, 2006 10:55 PM (l8HpH)
17
From what I know about Vietnam (not enough), what got the N. Vietnamese to agree to peace was a massive bombing campaign (rolling thunder 2?) where the pilots were finally given free reign to blow up what was important the the N. Vietnamese.
Of course we lost anyway, because we didn't support the south after we pulled out, but the point is that brutal aggression seems to be the only way to win a war. The only way we've been able to lose wars is by not allowing our soldiers to do so.
Posted by: Kevin at November 19, 2006 09:31 AM (i2YG7)
Posted by: Fred at November 19, 2006 12:05 PM (jSBbA)
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P.S. Sorry to hear you guys just lost Kissinger.
Never had him to begin with, so there's nothing to lose.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 19, 2006 01:03 PM (wfN0Q)
20
" ' Wouldn't you use IEDs if Iranian tanks roared in the streets of Houston to bring you "freedom"? ' (he)
It would depend on why they were there. Somehow, I suspect it wouldn't be to depose a despised dictator and allow for free elections though." (Purple Avenger )
Of course Saddam was a dictator and is a murderer, but he had been this since 1979. And the US didn't mind him being that when he was attacking Iran and when Rumsfeld shook hands with him.
Posted by: he at November 19, 2006 01:05 PM (3eK2/)
21
I believe the Germans tried this on a larger scale at Lidice and Oradour-sur-Glane. It doesn't work. In US history, it also did not work during Sheridan's Valley Campaign during the War Between the States. The good captain, while a valiant warrior and a gentleman, must have slept through military history at The Point or ROTC.
Now, if he had advocated the destruction of public facilities or the temporary suspension of public services (except security)...go for it.
Posted by: Perfesser at November 19, 2006 02:10 PM (qA8c4)
22
And the US didn't mind him being that when he was attacking Iran and when Rumsfeld shook hands with him.
Yea, the Iranians were always the good guys...
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 19, 2006 03:52 PM (wfN0Q)
23
Arbotreeist gets zero out of ten for reading comprehension.
Posted by: R.C.Hamrick at November 19, 2006 05:41 PM (De35R)
24
I disagree with the massive firepower theory. It did not work for the Russians in Afghanistan and it will not work in Iraq. The people of Iraq will not turn against the terrorists and start shooting them when they lay an IED...the reason is that if they shoot them, there are a few hundred more who will avenge their death and kill the family that stopped the IED attack.
I don't think America has lost the political will to fight a war at all. If you look at history we really never had it. WWII and the Civil War were the only two wars that had polarized sides and simplistic objectives. Most of the other wars we have fought (except the Revolution) were nebulous in their goals...Panama Canal, Spanish American War...we even had war protestors for WWII. Bottom line...this is a hard fight with no definite way to win except time and the will to not give up. To give up now would be irresponsible, illogical and would do nothing more than ruin our foreign policy by giving the impression that we don't finish what we start, but view things as disposable....even Iraqi lives.
Posted by: Jason at November 19, 2006 05:50 PM (E64xO)
25
RC,
Actually the problem is not comprehension. It is selectively picking things to reply to, taking them out of context, and then adding the universal left talking points to prove his point. There is a formula for it. Double standards and moving the goal posts. Remember, if a lefty can't answer with facts they change the subject, swear, or call names. Simple. Look at Earl...LOL
Posted by: Specter at November 19, 2006 05:53 PM (ybfXM)
26
Jason,
I tend to agree with your analysis. The difficult part becomes how to fight an insurgency. It really becomes a security issue to quell violence. And I think that the smaller, leaner US armed forces, with quick-strike ability, is the way to keep going. Set piece, large formation forces will not work. That is what the Russians tried to employ in Afghanistan. It didn't work. It is what the British tried to apply in our Revolutionary War. It didn't work. You have to apply the correct tactics to the circumstances.
Posted by: Specter at November 19, 2006 06:05 PM (ybfXM)
27
I disagree with the massive firepower theory. It did not work for the Russians in Afghanistan
Perhaps because the Russians never used it in Afghanistan?
It worked pretty well against Japan though.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 19, 2006 11:02 PM (wfN0Q)
28
The people of Iraq will not turn against the terrorists and start shooting them when they lay an IED...the reason is that if they shoot them, there are a few hundred more who will avenge their death and kill the family that stopped the IED attack.
Exactly right. We're already past the point of diminishing returns with the level of firepower being used in Iraq. The more force you use, the more you alienate the general population. The insurgents will be the ones reaping the benefits of that, not us.
Posted by: Arbotreeist at November 19, 2006 11:57 PM (N8M1W)
29
The people of Iraq will not turn against the terrorists and start shooting them when they lay an IED...
How do you explain the new position of the tribes in Anbar then?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 20, 2006 02:02 AM (wfN0Q)
30
Friends:
The solution is Iraq is a mix of nuanced military, as in target the bombers with the fruit of Intel and citizen tips, diplomacy and internal politics. I understand completely the frustrations of this Captain as I have felt them myself. Combat power will not win the day alone. It must be metered out on exact targets of opportunity. The key is bridge building between Sunni and Shia with the Kurds helping as they can. There has been some steps taken in this direction. Iraqis are a proud people, and they understand TRUST and DEEDS as in the manner of Ronald Reagan's "Trust but Verify." This takes time, but once momentum is built, it will be hard to side track by the enemy. This is nuance in its purest form, and you don't read it in any newspaper. You are hearing it from a participant in the process.
Posted by: Colonel David W. Moon (USMC-R) at November 20, 2006 08:21 AM (Eodj2)
31
The
Isrelis have pursued a policy of razing homes that were proven terrorist facilities. It has not resultd in any Palestinian restraint. Quite the reverse. Any policy that rests on a rational responce by adherents of a death cult is bound to fail.
Posted by: garrett at November 20, 2006 11:17 AM (6Hyks)
32
So much ignorance in such a small space.
Posted by: Jadegold at November 20, 2006 07:36 PM (80g9K)
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It has not resultd in any Palestinian restraint.
Other than attacks within Israel being down of course...
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 22, 2006 04:23 AM (wfN0Q)
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What a Strange Way to Wage a War
Josh Manchester of
The Adventures of Chester has a
warning posted at >TCS Daily:
Iraq is dangerous. Progress is measured in weeks and inches, not minutes and miles. It is weakly governed when governed at all. But to leave too early will be to compound these seemingly intractable attributes with the most deadly of sins: a failure of willpower. The world will know that when Iraq becomes the next Taliban-like state, or the next Rwanda, that it was only because the United States, the most able, powerful, and wealthy nation in the history of the world, gave up. If that disturbs you, imagine how much it delights our adversaries.
One can only hope that the moderate Democrats that panned Nancy Pelosi's choice of John Murtha yesterday in favor of Steny Hoyer are listening.
The Pelosi/Rangel/Levin/Kucinich wing of the Democratic Party has proven to be incredibly short-sighted, still thinking of the Iraq War as a tool to bludgeon President Bush and the Republican Party. They patently ignore the expected increased civilian deaths and possible genocide their short-sighted policy of withdrawal promise for the near-term, and the political damage that a retreat from Iraq would cause to the United States for decades to come.
Quite frankly, I'd opine that they care more about beating Bush than what is best for this nation, or for Iraq.
I challenge liberals, in all good faith, to explain how a near-term withdrawal from Iraq before the nation is stabilized will accomplish:
- Making Iraq safe for Iraqis;
- Anything other than convincing Islamists that terrorism is the best way to effect their will;
- Anything other than making all nations around the world consider the United States to be a fickle, unreliable ally
Please, step up and tell us how abandoning Iraq will be seen as anything other than "open season" to Sunni terrorist and insurgents, and Shiite militias and criminal gangs. Iraq is bad now, so what effect do you think that removing the 140,000 best trained and equipped soldiers in the country will have, other than an marked increase in chaos and bloodshed? For a liberal left that claims to care so much about the plight of people in third world regions, they seem all to willing to sell the Iraqi people down the river to genocide.
Please, tell us why the terrorists that overwhelming cheered for Democratic victories in the mid-terms should view a withdrawal from Iraq as anything other than a validation of their tactics and assumptions of how to best to conquer the world.
Iran is watching. Syria is watching. Hezbollah and Hamas are watching, as are dozens of other terrorists groups, as well as every nation in the world. What other message could they possibly receive from a U.S. withdrawal from Iraq, other than that a fierce depravity is the best way to ensure they get what they desire?
No, now is not a time to withdraw. It is a time to explain the stakes of this war to the American people, and rededicate this nation to winning the War in Iraq as one part of the overall War on Terror.
There can be no lasting peace through withdrawal.
Update: Via Instapundit, Investor's Business Daily has similar thoughts.
Update: via Hot Air, Democrat Orson Scott Card lays it out on the line:
The only issue that matters is still the War on Terror. Everybody talks about changing direction in Iraq. I agree. But I doubt they mean the same thing I do.
The only ways to change direction in Iraq are to give up and go home – a militarily stupid and morally indefensible move – or to go to the source of the insurgents' supply and cut it off.
Throughout this election season I have been hoping that President Bush had a bold military move against Iran up his sleeve, and that the only reason he was holding off was that he didn't want it to be perceived as an attempt to influence the election – or because he feared it would influence the election negatively.
Well, the election is over. Will he take the necessary military action to wipe out Iran's capability to disrupt the flow of oil in the Gulf? This would remove any credible threat from Iran (for the moment, at least), making it clear to both Iran and Syria that the way is now open for the US to take whatever action is necessary to stop their support of both terrorism and the subset of terrorism called "the Iraq insurgency."
The way to save the lives of American soldiers and Iraqi civilians in Iraq is to get regime change in Iran and Syria.
Let's hope his fellow Democrats follow his advice.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
CY,
Iraq is a lost cause. We didn't do what we needed to do to be successful and there is little if anything we can do now that will alter the outcome. The current administration did nearly everything wrong, from needlessly antagonizing our traditional allies to sending too few troops to disbanding the Iraqi army to installing the incompetent Paul Bremer. We have reached the tipping point where the best one can hope for is to cut our losses and try and minimize the damage. We have succeeded in making Iran THE key power in the region. I know this may not be what most of you want to hear but it is an accurate assessment of the current situation. We can stay here another decade at a cost of billions of dollars and thousands of lives but we will be lucky if we can maintain the current state of disfuntionality. All the BS about how we can't leave and only victory is acceptable ignores the reality of the situation we are in. I'm sure, in the minds of many of you, when all is said and done this will be someone elses fault. It will be liberals and the MSM who are to blame for the failure of this glorious undertaking. That may give you some comfort but history will not be so kind. We have made a mess of this and those chickens will eventually come home to roost. When they do, we will have the great "Decider" to thank for that.
Posted by: NYNick at November 17, 2006 11:45 AM (vgzEN)
2
We can stay here another decade at a cost of...
We already had a 12 year long perpetual deployment there sitting on Saddam after the first gulf war.
If you think another 10 years are expensive, and they are, a pullout is going to cost much more. Clinton's Somalia pullout cost us the WTC and 2,700 dead. Bin Laden has stated that was his inspiration to attack the Americans in ernest.
What makes you believe we shouldn't take these people at their word about what their inspirations are?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 17, 2006 12:02 PM (l8HpH)
3
Purple,
One of the biggest mistakes we've made is to elevate our enemies. We should not be basing our foreign policy on the utterings of UBL or any other terrorist. If we had been smart rather than stupid three years ago, UBL would be dead.
We should not compound our stupidity with more stupidity. You say that 10 more years would be expensive but you don't seem to understand, it's not the cost, it's the outcome. What would be different? Do you honestly think Iran would abandon their support for the Mehdi Army? Do you think the Sunnis can be wiped off the map without a full scale civil war? Exactly how would 10 more years alter the dynamics? This idea that we can win by resolve alone needs to be put to death. Resolve cannot overcome incompetence and hurbris. That's the lesson we will hopefully learn. Also, your assessment of the cause of 9/11 is a bit simplistic. That event was the result of thirty years of failure on the part of several administrations to deal with the issue of terror. It leaves aside the rash of hijackings in the early 80's and late 70's, the hezzbollah bombing of our embassy in Beriut. I could go on.
Posted by: NYNick at November 17, 2006 12:30 PM (vgzEN)
4
Fred said “..and there can be no victory through staying the course.” Whaaaat? So, we should have given up in 1943 because we hadn’t achieved victory in Germany? Or after the battle of the Coral Sea in the Pacific? The north should have given up after Bull Run because victory wasn’t around the corner?
“Staying the course” is the ONLY path to victory. We set on a course to remove Saddam (accomplished) and then set up a functioning democratic government in Iraq (working on it) along with developing a functional infrastructure (working on it). The fact that it’s taking longer than the pundits would like is irrelevant. Personally, I would like to see a more ruthless regime in charge that would crack down on the death squads.
Every day weÂ’re in Iraq is a victory. Brick by bloody brick. Train the police. Train the army. Build up the skills of the new officers and NCOs. This isnÂ’t a mini-series or even a seasonal TV show, it ainÂ’t gonna be over in a week or a month or a year. Unless youÂ’re a Kurd. Look how far theyÂ’ve come in 12 years under the aegis of the US (under Operation Northern Watch). If it works in the north of Iraq, it can work in the rest of the country.
But theyÂ’ve got to cut off the flow of fifth columnists and supplies from Iran, Jordan and Syria.
Another bonus for us, we’ve got a great cadre of soldiers and marines, trained in the tactics of urban warfare, ready to take up arms once again when the jihadi’s bring their violent ideology to our streets. As long as we’re in Iraq, we’ve got wannabee martyrs lining up to attack the “Great Satan” over there. Pull out, and they’ll go elsewhere (Europe and US). UNLESS we “stay the course” and get the Iraqi’s up to the point where they can take care of themselves. BTW, you can view the ongoing reconstruction of Iraq at www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/rpt/iraqstatus/ (sorry, don't know how to do embedded links) -cp
Posted by: cold pizza at November 17, 2006 12:42 PM (BHnFB)
5
Fred and NYNick
I suggest you read the entire Orson Scott Card piece. The realities of this war, your questions and concerns are addressed quite nicely.
After reading his essay, I have to ask you, do you honestly and intellectually believe there is anything we can do to halt Islamic terrorist attacks against our allies and ourselves?
Posted by: blamin at November 17, 2006 12:50 PM (gF/W/)
6
"One of the biggest mistakes we've made is to elevate our enemies."
THE biggest mistake we've made is not killing our enemies - ruthlessly and with the greatest of prejudice. That's the only way to win a war. Anything less is a half-hearted waste of resources and young lives. Unfortunately, we seem to have lost the stomach for defending ourselves. We've become more concerned with not violating the civil rights of unlawful combatants and reducing civilian casualties to zero(an impossible feat when the enemy is an unlawful combatant; indistinguishable from civilians and hiding behind them).
I grieve for my country that we've come to this. Blind rage by a political party against a sitting President so complete that military defeat is seen as a positive outcome...
Posted by: Diogenes at November 17, 2006 12:56 PM (/c6lU)
7
Blamin,
I have no interest in reading what this Orson guy has to say, that little snip is enough for me to realize he can't be taken seriously.
"The way to save the lives of American soldiers and Iraqi civilians in Iraq is to get regime change in Iran and Syria."
Really? Maybe we can enlist superman and his pals at the hall of justice for that mission! It's idiotic to assume we can do what he suggests. We are in deep trouble in Iraq, what do you think the outcome would be in Iran?
Do you own a map? Take a look at where Iran sits. Orson is delusional if he thinks we can occupy the land from the Steppes to the Persian sea. Please, we've tried the fantasy based foreign policy idea once, let's not repeat it. Iran has about 70 million people to Iraq's 25 million. They border not just Afghanistan and Pakistan but the vitally important Caucasus region as well. If you think Iran gave us problems in Iraq, wait until the Russians and Chinese start meddling in your little war. We need to be honest about where we are and move forward from here. But most people, including the "Decider" still don't get it. You cannot go around saying things like we will not accept a nuclear North Korea or a nuclear Iran unless you have some way to stop it from happening.
Posted by: NYNick at November 17, 2006 01:18 PM (vgzEN)
8
Diogenes,
Military defeat is not a positive outcome. And let's not cry the crocidile tears about the poor president. This president is responsible for the position he's in and the position we all are in. He could have spent a little less time demonizing his detractors and concentrating on the policy but he didn't. He was the war president remember? Well, in the end, one reaps what one sows. If he wants to be respected by all, he could have shown respect for all. But the Rove strategy was to play to your base and use wedge issues whenever possible. He's created a party where only the true believers are left and there are simply not enough of you.
Hell, even Richard Perle has left the reservation.
Posted by: NYNick at November 17, 2006 01:28 PM (vgzEN)
9
Fred and NYNick, I asked some fairly simple questions from you and other liberals in this post:
...explain how a near-term withdrawal from Iraq before the nation is stabilized will accomplish:
Making Iraq safe for Iraqis;Anything other than convincing Islamists that terrorism is the best way to effect their will;Anything other than making all nations around the world consider the United States to be a fickle, unreliable ally.
Interestingly enough, you have not addressed any of these three points, leading me to believe that like your Party's leadership, you are unable or unwilling to examine the long-term effects of the "withdrawal" solution that you advocate.
Interestingly enough, liberals seem to think that Iraq is a lost cause, but the overwhelming majority of soldiers who have their lives on the line say just the opposite, that we should continue and perhaps
increase our efforts to eradicate terrorists through more aggressive action. Pardon me from disagreeing with you, but I think the soldiers on the ground in Iraq have a much better idea of what it takes to win, and whether or not the war is winnable, than a media holed up in Baghdad hotels, a liberal base blinded by their hatred for all things conservative or military (sorry Fred, I know you're vet, but you chose to lie down with those who generally revile your service), and politicians looking out for their short-term personal gains, not American's long-term best interests.
Again I challenge you: how can an untimely withdrawal from Iraq do anything beneficial for America in the long run? Certainly, it can decrease our short term casualties, but at what cost? Do you really think that allowing a few tens of thousands of Iraqis (or more) to die, along with validating the tactics of terrorism (thereby seriously increasing its tactical and strategic use worldwide), is actually going to create fewer American deaths due to terrorism in the years and decades to come?
Is it worth the loss of trust and credibility the United States will suffer, as the world comes to regard us as a serially unreliable ally? Do you think that if we show we are unreliable, that the Chinese will think twice about attacking Taiwan, or that the terrorist-supporting states will think twice about enabling further attacks against the United States, convinced they can simply wait out any retaliatory strikes?
I'm moved to suspect that your views are entirely motivated by short-term political greed, not long-term thinking about the catastrophic damage that the policies you support pose to the future of this country and the world.
The fact, NYNick, that you refuse to even read a viewpoint that opposes your own, combined with a childishly simplistic misunderstanding that we need to physically occupy Syria and Iran to remove their ability to support terrorism, and your inability to examine the possibility of the damage your choices would cause, simply confirms to me that you do not have the intellectual
gravitas to be taken seriously on this subject.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 17, 2006 01:57 PM (g5Nba)
10
CY,
It's not me that advocates occupying Iran, it's your friend Orson. He wrote:
"The way to save the lives of American soldiers and Iraqi civilians in Iraq is to get regime change in Iran and Syria."
How exactly does one go about regime change? Because that phrase used to mean invading the country and removing their leadership. Once one does that, one must also occupy it or nothing is accomplished (See Iraq). You assume I have some animus for the military. Why? Is it because you think only conservatives fight? Is the current army made up of only conservatives and their offspring? I have no problem with fighting our enemies but the military cannot bail out a flawed policy. As for the soldiers, I am sure they feel that way. They are trained to fight and to die for one another. Seeing ones comrades shot or blown up has an effect on them. How could they not want to see this through? That however is not how we win or fight wars. The military reports to the civilians, not the other way around. They cannot do the impossible but if you ask them, they will try. They will fight to the last man for a failed policy if ordered to do so. That is their strength. That's also why we hold the civilians in charge responsible. You say my "inability to examine the possibility of the damage your choices would cause..." blah, blah, blah. Well, sometimes there are no good options. And whos fault is that?
Posted by: NYNick at November 17, 2006 02:34 PM (vgzEN)
11
"Explain how a near-term withdrawal from Iraq before the nation is stabilized will accomplish:"
* Making Iraq safe for Iraqis;
It won't, no doubt the civil war will intensify if we leave.
* Anything other than convincing Islamists that terrorism is the best way to effect their will;
Bush has set us up for a painful defeat in an unnecessary war, no doubt about it.
* Anything other than making all nations around the world consider the United States to be a fickle, unreliable ally.
I've got bad news for you, Bush and the neocons have already made us a pariah nation. In 2001 Tehran prayed for the US, but since then Bush trashed the good will expressed from all over the world by mistreating our allies and starting a universally unpopular war over WMD in a country that didn't have them, to avenge 911 in a country that wasn't involved with it, and to defeat Islamic extremism in a secular nation.
Now in your zeal to lash out at the Dems, you are doing the same thing that Bush and Cheney did in 2004: goading the Dems for not having any good ideas about Iraq. Well, there simply aren't any good options, and it's rich to hear this criticism from the people responsible for the quagmire.
You need to outline the objectives, and don't give me "stay the course", tell me what the course is. Perhaps your next bid is, establish a stable government. Bear in mind that it used to be a democracy, but nobody even pretends that's the goal now. We just want to quit watching our soldiers die without sparking off a civil war into which Iran and Turkey might be drawn. What would this stable government look like exactly? The Sunnis and Shias are blowing up eachother's mosques, torturing eachother with power drills, and as a sideline blowing up US humvees. How do you want our soldiers to make these two sides magically trust eachother all of a sudden? What rot. And then there are the Kurds, who will be damned before they accept a Shia or a Sunni leader.
Your boys thought they were done in 2003 and the "there is no history of ethnic strife in Iraq" and that we would be greeted as liberators, and now you lash out at us for being the problem.
No, there aren't any solutions, so I can't in good conscience ask any more soldiers to sacrifice their lives.
Posted by: Earl at November 17, 2006 02:41 PM (x3DGU)
12
Military defeat is not a positive outcome.
On that you are correct - but it appears to be a means to an end for many on the left. It seems that all they care about is embarrassing GWB and retaking power.
And let's not cry the crocidile tears about the poor president.
CY is right - you either won't read or refuse to comprehend the posts of those that disagree with you. GWB will have to defend himself. I'm not happy with his lack of leadership for the past two years myself. Neither do I see any constructive ideas coming from the left - only an endless littany of what's wrong...
Posted by: Diogenes at November 17, 2006 02:48 PM (/c6lU)
13
Diogenes,
We already took back power. That was what the last election was all about.
I read all the posts but I still do not see a solution. What I think we who disagree with you are saying is that your solutions will not work.
Adding more troops has been shot down even by the generals in charge. Even if we did add thousands of troops, what would change? Would Iran quit their support of their Shia brothers?
Would the insurgents suddenly get up and go home? Highly unlikely. If we add more troops we will be right back here having this same argument next year and the year after that. Eliminating Iran and Syria would be nice but I fail to see how that's going to be accomplished. If you know how we can do that, by all means, let's hear it.
Posted by: NYNick at November 17, 2006 03:22 PM (vgzEN)
14
One of the biggest mistakes we've made is to elevate our enemies.
How is taking it at face value when someone says they want to kill you "elevating them"?
If it were a bunch of cross dressing Druid midgits making the threats one could laugh and say they don't have the power or critical mass to carry out their threats.
The Islamists aren't in that category as the WTC wreckage, and other devastation around the world plainly attests to.
So what's YOUR plan? Convince me the democrats can make me safer. I'm willing to listen and be convinced if the argument is good enough.
I haven't heard a single thing of substance from them yet.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 17, 2006 03:24 PM (l8HpH)
15
Don't know this Orson Scott Card fellow, but for a Democrat, he seems to have guts.
Posted by: Anonymous for now at November 17, 2006 03:27 PM (RMHg5)
16
NYNick
Mr. Card di dn't advocate occupying Syria and Iran. Do you always make uninformed assumptions?
If you, or those that agree with you, ever actually read his piece, I suspect youÂ’ll be strangely quite on this issue.
Posted by: blamin at November 17, 2006 03:40 PM (gF/W/)
17
Purple Avenger:
"Convince me the democrats can make me safer."
Poor baby's scared. Too bad you can't trade more of your civil liberties in against the 1/1,000,000 chance you'll be killed by a terrorist. Coward.
"I haven't heard a single thing of substance from them yet."
Right, the GOP is the source of all truth and rightness, and the Dems are all idiots and traitors. Why do you bother to read the news?
Posted by: Earl at November 17, 2006 03:51 PM (x3DGU)
18
Blamin,
I read it. It's even more idiotic than I assumed.
"Syria we could topple quite easily, once Iran's ability to threaten shipping in the Gulf was removed. And without Syria as its surrogate in the Arab world, and without any credible threat to the world oil supply, either Iran's military would change the Iranian government, or the Iranian government would have to face the fact that it could no longer act with impunity."
Really? He doesn't quite say how we would "topple" Syria, just that it would be easy.
Then, voila! Iran would be toppled by their military or would cower in a corner and be nice to us. That is what you want me to take seriously?
Posted by: NYNick at November 17, 2006 03:54 PM (vgzEN)
19
Earl said: "Poor baby's scared. Too bad you can't trade more of your civil liberties in against the 1/1,000,000 chance you'll be killed by a terrorist. Coward."
While there's nothing wrong per se in being a "coward", your post is simply outrageous. It's about PRINCIPLE, you stupid little titsucker. I'm assured you'd be scared if you met me - as I can't stand mean people. Welcome to Finland, motherfucker.
Posted by: Anonymous for now at November 17, 2006 03:59 PM (RMHg5)
20
A for N: There's nothing wrong with being a coward? What is about principle? Why should I be scared of you? Who's mean? Finland???
I guess you're insulting me, but really I don't have a clue what you're talking about. Maybe you should take a little more time with your writing.
Posted by: Earl at November 17, 2006 04:18 PM (x3DGU)
21
Blamin,
"Mr. Card di dn't advocate occupying Syria and Iran. Do you always make uninformed assumptions?"
What does "topple" mean? Give me your description? How does one "topple" a sitting government without filling the power vacuum? Thank god there are people in the military who are paid to think about these things. Call it whatever you want but it's going to mean boots on the ground.
This Orson guy also assumes that Bush has some secret plan to confront Iran militarily.
Bush had this to say on the subject in April of this year...
"Bush said his goal is to keep the Iranians from having the capability or the knowledge to have a nuclear weapon.
"I know we're here in Washington (where) prevention means force," Mr. Bush said. "It doesn't mean force necessarily. In this case it means diplomacy."
I guess this plan is so secret not even the president is aware of it. But apparently this Orson guy is a foreign policy genius simply because he's a Democrat and thinks like you do.
You, me, the entire world knows we are not likely to strike Iran anytime in the near future.
In fact, we are much more likely to use Tony Blair for cover and go to Iran, hat in hand and ask them to assist in stabilizing Iraq for us. This is the outcome of a failed policy. We've made our ultimate enemy in the region more powerful by a factor of 10.
Posted by: NYNick at November 17, 2006 04:38 PM (vgzEN)
22
NYNick
OK, I’ll upgrade my charge of you practicing “uninformed assumptions” to “selective thinking”.
Do you think Bush and his generals should openly debate/discuss all scenarios and possible plans, and never, ever use a little misdirection concerning the enemy?
Are you suggesting the hostile leadership of a foreign gov’t can’t be “toppled” without our boots occupying the “vacuum”?
Are you ignoring the fact that Syria is a very weak country whose leaders have a tenuous hold over its people?
Did you ignore the parts in his thesis concerning the will of the people to obey under tyranny?
I’m paraphrasing here, and I can’t remember exactly who said it, but it kind of has a ring of self-evident truth to it. “Those who have always been free will never understand the desire for freedom that burns within the oppressed.”
Posted by: blamin at November 17, 2006 05:35 PM (gF/W/)
23
Blamin,
Are you seriously suggesting that if we removed the Assad Government from power and simply left, that Democracy would spring from the ashes? Is that a plan?
Posted by: NYNick at November 17, 2006 05:45 PM (vgzEN)
24
Earl wrote: "A for N: There's nothing wrong with being a coward? What is about principle? Why should I be scared of you? Who's mean? Finland???"
- Being a coward (= being afraid when few others are / when there's no reason to be) is regrettable, but it's not WRONG. One can't help being a coward, right?
- Opposing terrorists is about principle. I agree that right now (and I stress "right now") there is little chance of you or me becoming a victim of terrorists, but that's not to say we shouldn't fight them.
- You should be scared of me because I stand up for what is right. You, sir, are everything the Western countries should fight against.
- "Who's mean? Finland???" Learn your own language, stupid. You are mean. I can't stand people who belittle others for no reason.
You, an obvious Democrat, probably think the world outside America loves you. That's not the case. You'd be surprised how many people despise you backstabbing idiots. Yes, this is an ad hominem attack, but you for one deserve it.
Posted by: Anonymous for now at November 17, 2006 06:23 PM (RMHg5)
25
NYNick,
Yes you took power...the election was based on "getting out of Iraq". So riddle me this oh intelligent one. Why is it that the latest AP/Ipsos poll (you remember - the pollster that always over-samples dems - and continued in this poll too) says that 57% of Americans believe that the Democrats have
NO PLAN for Iraq?
All of your fancy words and empty-rhetoric doesn't mean crap when you have NO PLAN. Add to that the continuous political wrangling - the continuous tossing of your own under the bus by your own - within the Dem party and what do we have? Impending chaos.
Maybe you should concentrate on getting a plan together for uniting your own party domestically before you start mouthing off about how you are going to handle international problems.
Posted by: Specter at November 17, 2006 08:20 PM (ybfXM)
26
Specter,
Read the comments above. Iraq is lost. There is not a magical potion the Democrats can concoct that will save it. You say:
"Maybe you should concentrate on getting a plan together for uniting your own party domestically before you start mouthing off about how you are going to handle international problems."
I would think the plan Pelosi laid out for the first 100 hours would be considered by some to be a plan. Is it your opinion that Democrats should be responsible for solving impossible situations created by Republicans? There are many Republicans that believe just that. The party of responsibility will have to take responsibility for the mess they created in Iraq and beyond. We can do all that is possible but we cannot be expected to do the impossible.
Also, the electorate has seen the results of Republican foreign policy and found it lacking.
Don't look now but your party's expertise on international affairs is in ruins. What does it say when conservatives like William Buckley and Richard Perle are closer to my position than they are to yours? All your side has left is blaming the MSM and liberals and as someone once said, that dog won't hunt anymore.
Posted by: nynick at November 17, 2006 09:28 PM (4SNDL)
27
Anonymous for now:
"Being a coward (= being afraid when few others are / when there's no reason to be) is regrettable, but it's not WRONG. One can't help being a coward, right?"
Being a coward is bad, you can't easily dig your way out of this one. Similarly, people can't help being stupid, but that's still bad.
"Opposing terrorists is about principle. I agree that right now (and I stress 'right now') there is little chance of you or me becoming a victim of terrorists, but that's not to say we shouldn't fight them."
I agree.
"You should be scared of me because I stand up for what is right. You, sir, are everything the Western countries should fight against."
Such melodrama! You stand up against terrorism because it's BAD. How clever and noble! It's cool how you can know so much about me with your super powers.
"'Who's mean? Finland???' Learn your own language, stupid. You are mean. I can't stand people who belittle others for no reason."
I wasn't asking if Finland is mean, I was saying "Who is mean?" and "What on earth do you mean by Finland?" because your initial post was laughably incoherent. How is it that you can belittle me but it's wrong when I belittle others?
"You, an obvious Democrat, probably think the world outside America loves you. That's not the case. You'd be surprised how many people despise you backstabbing idiots. Yes, this is an ad hominem attack, but you for one deserve it."
I'm not a Democrat. I have no illusions about the world loving the US. What you don't seen to understand is that it's George Bush and his fellow Republicans who have alienated many of our former allies over the last few years, not the Democrats.
Posted by: Earl at November 17, 2006 09:29 PM (x3DGU)
28
One more thing Specter,
"All of your fancy words and empty-rhetoric doesn't mean crap..."
Stop, you flatter me....
Posted by: nynick at November 17, 2006 09:33 PM (4SNDL)
29
I see you dodged the question NYNick. Where's your plan? You ran on "fix Iraq". You won on that platform. You can't duck the responsibility now. We are there and no amount of obfuscation on your point will change the reality. So where's the plan bud? Got one yet?
BTW - don't go into party and international stuff. I got one word for ya - CLINTON. As soon as you get the implication of that, check back in. Here's another one - CARTER. LOL. Don't be such a doofus.
Posted by: Specter at November 17, 2006 10:53 PM (ybfXM)
30
And one more thing NYnicky,
Of course I mean other than "cut and run." Because that will cause more humanitarian strife in that country than when CLINTON turned his back and millions died there due to starvation and lack of medical supplies.....Do you really need a history lesson that bad?
Posted by: Specter at November 17, 2006 11:01 PM (ybfXM)
31
Specter: there is not good plan. We have to choose the lesser evil. I like it how you all create the biggest strategic and political screwup in modern memory, then you stand around cackling about how the Dems doesn't know how to clean it up. You're just another lifetime citizen of Clown World.
The paradox you face is that if the Iraq war is so apt, so important to the WOT, so close to victory, then it's not a problem, right? It's all good. But if it's not a problem then how can you goad us about not having a great answer? You can't have it both ways.
Posted by: Earl at November 18, 2006 02:13 AM (x3DGU)
32
Specter: still bitter about Clinton are we? He did, after all, actually know something about governing a country. W on the other hand was a drunk for decades, drug user, poor reservist, twice failed oil exec, not much damn good at anything, never learned any kind of trade, yet the GOP, the party of personal responsiblity, thought he was just the man for President.
What are the odds on his Rushmore bid? I'm guessing he doesn't makes it. What do you say?
http://www.tdaxp.com/images/medium_george_walker_bush_rushmore_sm.jpg
Enjoy your Jimmy Carter moment, friend. I know I am.
Posted by: Earl at November 18, 2006 02:18 AM (x3DGU)
33
Gee Earl - Let's review the facts shall we? Strongest economy in 40 years. Lowest unemployment ever. No MAJOR terror attacks on US since Clinton was sent packing (well - Gore). Horrid, despicable, dictator deposed (according to Clinton's Regime Change Initiative). Blooming democracy in Iraq. Economy in Iraq growing. Yes - utter and complete failure. NOT!
The problem is that you won't quote, or face, facts. Other than what you read in NYT or over at KOS (he's 0-20 now on picks to be elected....what insight!), that is.
You see - you have an unbridled hatred for anything "Bush". It doesn't matter whether it is backed up by fact or not. I love it when you claim that all this is Bush's fault! Imagine, nothing of a terroristic nature happened before Bush right? Nothing like the first attack on the Twin Towers, nothing like the US Cole, nothing like OBL declaring war on the US in 1994, nothing like our failure in Somalia and the subsequent claim of victory by terrorists. According to your logic, all of that must have been Bush's fault because Saint Clinton never screwed up (and I will stay away from the pun inherent there).
The true fact is that all of it is connected. You can't take things as static snapshots in time. Doing so is dishonest. You must look at it as a continuum - where events of the past affect the now and the future. So don't try to change the goal posts by claiming that I'm "bitter" about Clinton. I'm not - I just happen to know the facts and live in the real world. You apparently have a problem with that.
And I brought up Carter - possible the worst president of modern times - because if he had dealt forcefully with Iran back then, we might not be facing some of the problems we are today. See - history - past events affect the future. It can't be ignored. Let me give you an example. Libya and Gadaffi. Notice that when he started to rear his ugly head, the same way that Hussein did, Reagan nearly chopped it off. In fact, after forceful American action, we never really heard from Libya again, did we. Action - planned action - leads to results.
Now the crux. Have errors been made in Iraq? Obviously the answer is yes. Is it a total failure as you and NYNick claim? No. Hussein is gone, new government in place, democracy even if a rough one, army and police being trained, 85% of the country under control (remember that this is a 22 million person country). Is there an insurgency? Yes - and it is bad. But can you honestly say that it will get better if we leave? That is not what we are hearing from Iraq.
And believe it or not, if we leave we may actually be in violation of the UN resolution. What about that? What about the other 40 countries that are a part of our coalition, have troops there, and have lost soldiers in the war? What do we say to them?
Again - as I said before, Dems won on the "get out of Iraq" platform. Most Americans - 57% - say the Dems have no plan. So what are you going to do? Let's hear it. Stop B&Ming and start governing. Oh that's right - there are so many arguments in the Dem leadership right now that they can't focus on anything else. That's OK - you've got about 8 weeks.
Posted by: Specter at November 18, 2006 10:39 AM (ybfXM)
34
specter:
"Gee Earl - Let's review the facts shall we?"
Indeed.
"Strongest economy in 40 years."
No. The housing market is terrible. The Dow Jones is not too much higher than it was when Clinton left office. Middle and lower class wage growth has fallen after inflation. National debt has doubled under W. National savings rate has fallen below zero.
"Lowest unemployment ever."
No.
"No MAJOR terror attacks on US since Clinton was sent packing (well - Gore)."
Except for 9/11, a few days after W ignored a CIA memo entitled 'Bin Laden Determined to Strike in the US'.
"Horrid, despicable, dictator deposed"
Yes and civil war as a result. Incidentally the invasion was about WMD, not deposing Saddam.
"Blooming democracy in Iraq. Economy in Iraq growing."
Where do you get this stuff? Yesterday Tony Blair agreed that Iraq "is a disaster".
"The problem is that you won't quote, or face, facts."
I've already given more hard facts than you did.
"You see - you have an unbridled hatred for
anything "Bush". It doesn't matter whether it is backed up by fact or not. I love it when you claim that all this is Bush's fault! Imagine, nothing of a terroristic nature happened before Bush right?"
Iraq is Bush's fault, full stop.
"Nothing like the first attack on the Twin Towers, nothing like the US Cole, nothing like OBL declaring war on the US in 1994, nothing like our failure in Somalia and the subsequent claim of victory by terrorists. According to your logic, all of that must have been Bush's fault because Saint Clinton never screwed up (and I will stay away from the pun inherent there)."
Idiot, I never said any of that.
"The true fact is that all of it is connected. You can't take things as static snapshots in time. Doing so is dishonest. You must look at it as a continuum - where events of the past affect the now and the future. So don't try to change the goal posts by claiming that I'm 'bitter' about Clinton. I'm not - I just happen to know the facts and live in the real world. You apparently have a problem with that."
I have a problem with denizens of Clown World, yes.
"And I brought up Carter - possible the worst president of modern times"
No, that would be W.
" - because if he had dealt forcefully with Iran back then, we might not be facing some of the problems we are today. See - history - past events affect the future. It can't be ignored. Let me give you an example. Libya and Gadaffi. Notice that when he started to rear his ugly head, the same way that Hussein did, Reagan nearly chopped it off. In fact, after forceful American action, we never really heard from Libya again, did we. Action - planned action - leads to results."
9/11 is Carter's fault. Got it.
"Now the crux. Have errors been made in Iraq? Obviously the answer is yes. Is it a total failure as you and NYNick claim? No. Hussein is gone, new government in place, democracy even if a rough one, army and police being trained, 85% of the country under control (remember that this is a 22 million person country). Is there an insurgency? Yes - and it is bad. But can you honestly say that it will get better if we leave? That is not what we are hearing from Iraq."
Again this is flat-out wrong. Iraq is a disaster. Clown Boy in Chief thought he was done in 2003. The war was premised on WMD. W had no plans for an insurgency, he expected to be greeted as a liberator. Iraq is not thriving, it is a hell hole where people are torturing eachother with drills.
"And believe it or not, if we leave we may actually be in violation of the UN resolution. What about that? What about the other 40 countries that are a part of our coalition, have troops there, and have lost soldiers in the war? What do we say to them?"
What UN resolution? God you're a nitwit.
"Again - as I said before, Dems won on the "get out of Iraq" platform. Most Americans - 57% - say the Dems have no plan. So what are you going to do? Let's hear it. Stop B&Ming and start governing. Oh that's right - there are so many arguments in the Dem leadership right now that they can't focus on anything else. That's OK - you've got about 8 weeks."
There aren't any good plans, you guys screwed it up, don't gloat that we don't know a good way to clean up your mess, neither does James Baker or Ed Meese or Cheney or anyone else. It's a disaster, as Blair said. Iraq is anarchy. There's no win to be had, the Shiites and Sunnis and Kurds loathe and distrust eachother, they are all jockying for their own goals and don't care much about making nice with eachother and forming a government.
You are one of the most deluded people I've ever encountered. You are a lifetime member of Clown World. I wonder if you'll ever see the light of day.
Posted by: Earl at November 18, 2006 03:39 PM (x3DGU)
35
Well...well...well....
Let's start with this:
No. The housing market is terrible. The Dow Jones is not too much higher than it was when Clinton left office. Middle and lower class wage growth has fallen after inflation. National debt has doubled under W. National savings rate has fallen below zero.
First you pick only two real indicators of economic growth (and the stock market is at best a shaky one). The housing market has taken a downturn in the last 3 months. Before that it was booming. Hmmmm....The point on the stock market is that it is higher. It is higher, so logic follows, that it is better. If you really want to use that as a barometer it says the economy is better. Remember that Clinton left Bush with a recession. We had to get out of that first, then 911, the Katrina.
I also notice that you make no mention of GDP, low inflation, low unemployment, consumer confidence, manufacturing, etc. - in fact, other than housing, you left out every other major measure of the economy. Do a little research next time. BZZZZ....times up and you missed the secret word!
Yes and civil war as a result. Incidentally the invasion was about WMD, not deposing Saddam.
I love this Dem talking point. First off - what civil war? 22 Million people in the country, and what, a few thousand insurgents (or maybe you prefer the term freedom fighter like one of your heroes Mother Sheehan). So let's see, why, that's less than one half of one percent. And that makes a civil war? And you call me a dimwit.
The other point is almost not worth talking about because you are so uninformed that you will never get the point. But let's try, ok? The war was about far more than WMD. Have you ever read the AUMF? You know - the measure passed by of Congress that authorized the war? If not, you should, because there are many, many reasons for the authorization of the war. Find it
here. You might actually be surprised that there was more to it than you read in the NYT.
Add to that, Oh Earl of Ignorance, that the Harmony project has been translating documents that show that Iraq had contacts with Al Quaeda, that Iraq had terrorist training camps, that Iraq was constantly trying to hide weapons program information from inspectors, that they even had WORKING PLANS for nuclear weapons. Have you read any of that? If not, you might want to spend a few thousand hours getting caught up with reality at the
Combating Terrorism Center.
Where do you get this stuff? Yesterday Tony Blair agreed that Iraq "is a disaster".
I get it from studying Earl. Not just reading Doom and Gloom in the NYT. But what the heck - you made your entire post without one link. I'll up ya - from
Squiggler, with references and links:
What your media mavens aren't telling you about Iraq while they harp hour by dreary hour on body counts and blood:
(H/T: Atlas Shrugs)
Did you know that 47 countries' have reestablished their embassies in Iraq?
Did you know that the Iraqi government currently employs 1.2 million Iraqi people?
Did you know that 3100 schools have been renovated, 364 schools are under rehabilitation,
263 new schools are now under construction and 38 new schools have been completed in Iraq?
Did you know that Iraq's higher educational structure consists of 20 Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers, all currently operating?
Did you know that 25 Iraq students departed for the United States in January 2005 for the re-established Fulbright program?
Did you know that the Iraqi Navy is operational?
They have 5 - 100-foot patrol craft, 34 smaller vessels and a naval infantry regiment.
Did you know that Iraq's Air Force consists of three operational squadrons, which includes 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport aircraft (under Iraqi operational control) which operate day and night, and will soon add 16 UH-1 helicopters and 4 Bell Jet Rangers?
Did you know that Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando Battalion?
Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000 fully trained and equipped police officers?
Did you know that there are 5 Police Academies in Iraq that produce over 3500 new officers each 8 weeks?
Did you know there are more than 1100 building projects going on in Iraq?
They include 364 schools, 67 public clinics, 15 hospitals, 83 railroad stations, 22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities and 69 electrical facilities. Did you know that 96% of Iraqi children under the age of 5 have received the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?
Did you know that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary school by mid October?
Did you know that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers in Iraq and phone use has gone up 158%?
Did you know that Iraq has an independent media that consists of 75 radio stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?
Did you know that the Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 2004? Did you know that 2 candidates in the Iraqi presidential election had a televised debate recently?
OF COURSE WE DIDN'T KNOW!
Verify it all at the Department of Defense website.
Wow. Actual facts. Did you ever visit the
Centcom site for a reality check? Probably not. But of course you know that the NYTraitors don't either. Facts here Earl. Facts that don't support your doom and gloom. Pretty amazing isn't it? This is fun.
Idiot, I never said any of that.
No - you said:
Iraq is Bush's fault, full stop.
Now note Earl, that what I said is that the problems we are facing about TERRORISM are the result of years of not doing anything about it. The situation Iraq was in was due to years of American "diplomacy". Get a clue. I was trying to get you to understand that Iraq was not a problem that simply sprung up in the first 8 months of Bush's term. If you can't even admit that, I feel really bad. But hey - the Dems are led by that brain trust Howlin' Howie. It is noteworthy that when you can't quote fact though that you are good at calling names. LOL.
Except for 9/11, a few days after W ignored a CIA memo entitled 'Bin Laden Determined to Strike in the US'.
Got a link to that memo Earl? But like I said, obviously you believe that 911 just happened. That the pilots were all trained overnight, that the money needed was earned in just a few short weeks, etc. Really? Are you so naive as to believe that the planning did not go back well into the Clinton admin? And are you so blinded by hate that you ignore the fact that if Clinton had taken out OBL on any of the 10 separate occasions he had the chance that maybe it would not have happened? Where do you get this stuff, other that KOS...?
What UN resolution? God you're a nitwit.
Nitwit? Earl...earl...earl. What are we going to do with you. Do you really have any idea what you are saying? Have you heard of Resolution 1546? According to Maliki (I know you might not have heard of him, but he is the Prime Minister of a 22 million person country that is directly effected) there is just such a committment. You can review the interview he did with the BBC on November 7, 2006,
here. Be sure to click (you do that with the thing next to your computer called a mouse) on the interview itself. Watch it. You might not look like such an idiot.
I really wish you'd quite trying to dodge the issue of why the dems were elected into power. You were elected based on lies about Iraq and the promise to get out. Now where is the plan? tic...tic...tic...clock's running....
Posted by: Specter at November 19, 2006 12:36 AM (ybfXM)
36
It seems that some here are ignorant of the fact that the war with Iraq has been over for a long time and that Iraq is a sovereign country with its own duly and democratically elected government. We are not at war with Iraq anymore. We are continuing with the War on Terror and Iraq is one of many U.S. allies in that venture. Through their choice, al-Qaeda has elected to make Iraq, in particular Baghdad, their central battlefield for now.
For those of you who think that Muslim Extremist are not serious and are not something to be concerned about, take a look
HERE but prepare yourself, the photos are gruesome.
This insanity about Bush is just that -- insanity. We are in this entire Middle East mess primarily because of one man and his name is Jimmah Carter. I have no love lost for Clinton and his sleaze, but at least he recognizes the dangers and although he allowed very bad advice from Albright and Berger to influence him so that he treated terrorism as a law enforcement issue instead of a war issue, he at least tried to do something.
As for what you all think you just won. Hehehehehehe -- we'll see. Polls right after the election reflect that upward of 67-70% of the people polled were very concerned that the dems might try to "cut and run" and that is not what they want. I'll try to locate the link.
Posted by: Sara (Squiggler) at November 19, 2006 01:24 AM (FwPlP)
37
Earl,
Just for your education, here is the exact quote from Tony Blair that you have been harping - I would guess that you have been just skimming the headlines and not reading the stories. This is from
here (emphasis mine).
In an interview Friday on Al-Jazeera's new English-language channel, broadcaster Sir David Frost suggested that the 2003 US-led and British-backed invasion had "
so far been pretty much of a disaster."
"It has," Blair replied, before adding quickly: "But you see, what I say to people is why is it difficult in Iraq?
It's not difficult because of some accident in planning.
"
It's difficult because there's a deliberate strategy... to create a situation in which the will of the majority for peace is displaced by the will of the minority for war."
Note the words "so far" and the qualifying statements made by Blair. If you read the article - actually read it and not just the headlines, you might actually get an education.
Posted by: Specter at November 19, 2006 09:55 AM (ybfXM)
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Where are your facts Earl? You claimed to have posted more than me...but not one link to a real data source. C'mon...you can do it? NOT!
Posted by: Specter at November 19, 2006 09:57 AM (ybfXM)
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Ken 'Cakewalk' Adelman: "There are a lot of lives that are lost," Adelman said in an interview last week. "A country's at stake. A region's at stake. This is a gigantic situation. . . . This didn't have to be managed this bad. It's just awful."
Posted by: Earl at November 20, 2006 01:50 AM (x3DGU)
40
"If you mean by “military victory” an Iraqi government that can be established and whose writ runs across the whole country, that gets the civil war under control and sectarian violence under control in a time period that the political processes of the democracies will support, I don’t believe that is possible.” --Henry Kissinger
Posted by: Earl at November 20, 2006 12:50 PM (x3DGU)
41
General Barry McCaffrey (retired):
“The country is not at war. The United States armed forces and the CIA are at war. So we are asking our military to sustain a level of effort that we have not resourced,” he told Army Times.
“That’s how to break the Army is to keep it deployed above the rate at which it can be sustained,” he said. “There’s no free lunch here. The Army and the Marine Corps and Special Operations Command are too small and badly resourced to carry out this national security strategy.”
General William Odom (retired):
"Our leaders do not act because their reputations are at stake. The public does not force them to act because it is blinded by the president's conjured set of illusions: that we are reducing terrorism by fighting in Iraq, creating democracy there, preventing the spread of nuclear weapons, making Israel more secure, not allowing our fallen soldiers to have died in vain, and others.
"But reality no longer can be avoided. It is beyond U.S. power to prevent sectarian violence in Iraq, the growing influence of Iran throughout the region, the probable spread of Sunni-Shiite strife to neighboring Arab states, the eventual rise to power of the anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr or some other anti-American leader in Baghdad, and the spread of instability beyond Iraq.
These realities get worse every day that our forces remain in Iraq. They can't be wished away by clever diplomacy or by leaving our forces in Iraq for several more years.
Posted by: Earl at November 20, 2006 08:56 PM (Y9zdM)
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Earl - I asked for a link and I got one. I never said that the memo did not exist. Now, inform us oh Crusty-the-Earl, was all of that intelligence developed just during the first 8 months of the Bush administration? C'mon Earl. Be honest now. Are you really trying to get us to believe that Clinton had no knowledge of OBL's scheming? And you say I am deluded? LOL
I also noticed that you did not respond to ANY of the facts that I posted and ripped a new hole in you (and your theories). Instead you picked one small thing and trumpeted that as if by proving one thing (something I did not dispute BTW), you prove all the other convoluted and misguided things you have said.
Posted by: Specter at November 21, 2006 03:40 PM (ybfXM)
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Specter:
It doesn't matter when the intelligence was devloped, the important point is that W received a dire warning which specifically mentioned airplanes as bombs and he did not a thing, not even cut his vacation short. Yet you blame Clinton, who at least tried to get Bin Laden. It's so typical of you: Clinton's presidency marked singular moments in prosperity and peace, yet you somehow believe he's responsible for something that happened well after he stepped down. Oh, and he created a retro recession too. But this isn't what really gets my goat.
You are definitely deluded. Bush said "Mission Acomplished" about his "cakewalk" in 2003. Yet you believe that this war is normal and right, that we got exactly what we bargained for. They come up with plan after plan and nothing works any better than the last thing, and you blame Clinton and Kerry and Carter. The jig's up Specter, and I'm going to savor your every defeat in the coming months (not our military defeat, rather your political defeat).
Posted by: Earl at November 21, 2006 09:14 PM (Y9zdM)
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General Barry McCaffrey
General Barry "drug czar" McCaffrey?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 22, 2006 04:24 AM (wfN0Q)
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Earl,
Again, you dodged all the other issues you claimed to have the facts on and I proved you wrong. Excuse me, but what is delusion except continually moving the goal posts. Dire warning? Let's read the quote together, shall we (this is from your link - emphasis mine)?
The following is a transcript of the August 6, 2001, presidential daily briefing entitled Bin Laden determined to strike in US. Parts of the original document were not made public by the White House for security reasons.
Clandestine, foreign government, and media reports indicate bin Laden since
1997 has wanted to conduct terrorist attacks in the US. Bin Laden implied in U.S. television interviews in 1997 and 1998 that his followers would follow the example of World Trade Center bomber Ramzi Yousef and "bring the fighting to America."
After U.S. missile strikes on his base in Afghanistan in 1998, bin Laden told followers he wanted to retaliate in Washington, according to a -- -- service.
An Egyptian Islamic Jihad (EIJ) operative told - - service at the same time that bin Laden was planning to exploit the operative's access to the U.S. to mount a terrorist strike.
The millennium plotting in Canada in 1999 may have been part of bin Laden's first serious attempt to implement a terrorist strike in the U.S.
Convicted plotter Ahmed Ressam has told the FBI that he conceived the idea to attack Los Angeles International Airport himself, but that in ---, Laden lieutenant Abu Zubaydah encouraged him and helped facilitate the operation. Ressam also said that in 1998 Abu Zubaydah was planning his own U.S. attack.
Ressam says bin Laden was aware of the Los Angeles operation. Although Bin Laden has not succeeded,
his attacks against the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998 demonstrate that he prepares operations years in advance and is not deterred by setbacks. Bin Laden associates surveyed our embassies in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam as early as
1993, and some members of the Nairobi cell planning the bombings were arrested and deported in 1997.
Al Qaeda members -- including some who are U.S. citizens -- have resided in or traveled to the U.S. for years, and the group apparently maintains a support structure that could aid attacks.
Two al-Qaeda members found guilty in the conspiracy to bomb our embassies in East Africa were U.S. citizens, and a senior EIJ member lived in California in the mid-1990s.
A clandestine source said in 1998 that a bin Laden cell in New York was recruiting Muslim-American youth for attacks.
We have not been able to corroborate some of the more sensational threat reporting, such as that from a ---- service in
1998 saying that Bin Laden wanted to hijack a U.S. aircraft to gain the release of "Blind Sheikh" Omar Abdel Rahman and other U.S.-held extremists.
Nevertheless, FBI information since that time indicates
patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York.
The FBI is conducting approximately 70 full-field investigations throughout the U.S. that it considers bin Laden-related. CIA and the FBI are investigating a call to our embassy in the UAE in May saying that a group or bin Laden supporters was in the U.S. planning attacks with explosives.
OK Crusty-the-Earl, tell me specifically which sentence said:
W received a dire warning which specifically mentioned airplanes as bombs
See Earl - the problem here is you read a headline, and then decided what the article said without reading it. What the memo actually said was there were general threat indicators, but NO SPECIFIC THREAT - especially of the kind you asserted. BZZZZZ - And the answer was wrong again Earl. Are you ever going to get anything right?
BTW - the emphasis I added showed how much your precious Clinton did to get OBL. Remember, he had 10 chances and wimped out on each one. Get a grip on reality pal.
Posted by: Specter at November 22, 2006 01:53 PM (ybfXM)
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Specter:
You're right, I guess Bush should have stayed on vacation after a PDB entitled "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in US". Okay it mentions hijacking aircraft, not aircraft as bombs, at least in the non-redacted parts. There wasn't a damn thing Clinton could do to prevent 911, except get OBL. But he's not important, remember? That's what Bush said after he skipped out of Iraq to attack a secular nation in a war on Islamic extremism.
How's the weather there in Clown Land today?
Hey, by the way, someday, years from now, when I see the textbooks portray Clinton as a successful president, and W as a humiliation, I'm going to think of you and your impotent Clown Wang and give a little chuckle.
I guess you're looking at a bright future, no?
Posted by: Earl at November 23, 2006 01:47 AM (Y9zdM)
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See Earl - you can't even admit you are wrong. How many PDB's do you think Clinton got that said basically the same thing? Like - maybe once a week? What did he do about each one? So much for your DIRE WARNING. I owned you moron!
Posted by: Specter at November 23, 2006 04:51 PM (ybfXM)
48
Get it? You post empty theory and rhetoric and I come back with fact. You can't back your crap up with fact so you make another empty statement. I shoot it down again with FACTS and then you call me delusional. What a troll. Get a grip!
Posted by: Specter at November 23, 2006 04:53 PM (ybfXM)
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November 16, 2006
Priceless
Despite my general dislike of CNN, I've got to hand it to them; they really got this perfect, both photo and headline.
Nancy's steaming, Murtha's pouting, and Hoyer's preening. Oh what a fun Congress this promises to be.
I somehow doubt that any of us outside the Beltway fully understand what kind of damage Nancy Pelosi has done to her credibility within the Democrat ranks over the past few days. She may find a way to earn that trust back, but I suspect it won't come easy.
As others have noted (h/t Hot Air), Pelosi's lobbying for Murtha against Hoyer seemed from the outset to be a very petty and personal vendetta that might alienate many of the moderate Democrats that just won power two weeks ago.
With the final vote for Majority Leader coming out 149-86 in Hoyer's favor, we seem to be witnessing a potential fragmentation of the Democratic Party. The liberal leadership which now firmly holds the Speaker's post and seems primed to take over the majority of the key committee assignments is ideologically at odds with an incoming group of Congressional freshman that on average, are far more moderate in their views.
Update: Denial:
And don't shed any tears for Speaker-elect Nancy Pelosi. Even though her guy lost, this was still a big win for her. A victory for taking a stand -- and for her leadership. Because that's what real leaders do, they take stands. They listen to their hearts and follow their gut. If you only jump into the fights you're sure you can win -- notches in the W column that will look good on your political resume -- you're a hack, not someone who can move the party and the country forward. It's not about trying to have a spotless record; it's about knowing which battles are worth fighting, whatever the outcome.
It bodes well for Pelosi that was willing to spend her political capital right off the bat -- especially on the issue that will define her time at the helm. Far too many modern politicians save their political capital until it's lost all its value.
Arianna? Pelosi's already running a deficit.
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1
With the final vote for Majority Leader coming out 149-86 in Hoyer's favor, we seem to be witnessing a potential fragmentation of the Democratic Party.
Keep dreaming. You're too used to watching partisan hackery and temper tantrums from the Bush admin the last few years - grown adults handle disagreements a little more maturely than just calling the other guys a bunch of terrorist-loving traitors.
Posted by: legion at November 16, 2006 01:50 PM (3eWKF)
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...grown adults handle disagreements a little more maturely than just calling the other guys a bunch of terrorist-loving traitors.
Ah, but you make the unsupported assumption that politicians act like grown adults. As the picture clearly shows, it is easy to be infantile at any age.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 16, 2006 02:14 PM (g5Nba)
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Just maybe, legion, you are too young to remember what Democrats in power are like. It's been a while.
Nancy just blew a big chunk of political capital for no possible big gain. Dumb.
Posted by: Lee at November 16, 2006 02:33 PM (vGlRh)
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Oh I'm well aware of how wrong Dems in power can go. But at least now we have the possibility of some actual progress in between the corruption we just dumped and the corruption yet to come...
And I just love how rightys are portraying a pretty straightforward 149-86 referendum on the trustworthiness of Murtha vs Hoyer for #2 guy as some sort of crippling split in the Dem power base, while completely ignoring the
1-vote margin (and associated narrower mandate) the GOP just displayed in putting Trent Freaking Lott in as their own #2 guy. Sheesh.
Posted by: legion at November 16, 2006 02:44 PM (3eWKF)
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Classic case of a dog finally catching a car after years of chasing them and having no idea what to do next.
Posted by: Alan at November 16, 2006 03:06 PM (A51La)
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Also note the description: From [far] left: Pelosi, ....
Posted by: great unknown at November 16, 2006 03:12 PM (0Co69)
7
Legion
And I just love how rightys are portraying a pretty straightforward 149-86 referendum on the trustworthiness of Murtha vs Hoyer for #2 guy as some sort of crippling split in the Dem power base, while completely ignoring the 1-vote margin (and associated narrower mandate) the GOP just displayed in putting Trent Freaking Lott in as their own #2 guy. Sheesh.
House & Senate -- different animals, different agendas
Obviously you've never lived in Chicago, had an alderman walk in the booth with you to show you how the voting machine works, how to flip it for a Straight Dem ticket -- if you want that is --
Then pull the handle for you -- and tell you you're all done.
Tho raised in the Baltimore Dem Machine, That's still Pelosi style, --- She's gonna have some trouble.
Rangle is also advised to remember his powerful predecessor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Rostenkowski
Who says crime doesn't pay ? Rostenkoski's congressional retirement check is $300,000 per year (including Social Security) FOR LIFE, plus benefits. Back to the Senate -- Same for Tom Daschle and he's a young guy for a retiree .... so it's a long payout ... your tax dollars at work Legion, that's who you are slaving for till every May (annual tax freedom day). They don't prefund retirement payouts it's pay as you go in the U.S. Fed Govt.
In a class society, you're just a serf, He's Landed Gentry.
Legion .... Hmmmm I've heard that name before (Gospel of Mark 5:8-9)
Posted by: Econ-Scott at November 16, 2006 03:35 PM (AIw8T)
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That photo is priceless. I may have it blown up and use it for dart board fodder. One of my regular sent me here, thanks for the laugh!
Posted by: Jenn at November 16, 2006 04:14 PM (QD9ey)
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Econ-Scott,
While I don't doubt anything you said, what does it have to do with this thread?
Posted by: legion at November 16, 2006 05:11 PM (3eWKF)
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She's mad because her friend and favored candidate Murtha lost, Murtha's mad because he lost, Hoyer's happy because he won. What is newsworthy about this, or infantile? Those reactions are entirely normal. How are they supposed to feel? What am I missing here?
Posted by: Earl at November 16, 2006 05:36 PM (x3DGU)
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You know what you're missing, Earl? Macaca.
Posted by: jpe at November 16, 2006 05:50 PM (5ceWd)
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Has there been any speculation that Pelosi's support for Murtha goes beyond "loyalty"? Given Murtha's somewhat shady history, is it possible he has some dirt on Pelosi? It's just seemed odd to me that she continued to support him even though it's been pretty obvious for awhile that he probably did not have the votes. Or maybe she just over-estimated her own influence.
Posted by: Suds46 at November 16, 2006 06:40 PM (yTDDx)
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Once we quit weeping over what these clowns are going to do...it's going to be SUCH FUN to watch them ruin themselves. The Bolshevik Gang that Couldn't Shoot Straight.
The only thing they'll be good at is making conservatives
Posted by: El Jefe Maximo at November 16, 2006 08:08 PM (e7we+)
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the corruption yet to come...
By all indications, this new machine came preloaded with plenty of corruption.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 16, 2006 08:22 PM (l8HpH)
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El Jefe: Iraq, Katrina, Mission Accomplished, Osama Been Forgotten, Terry Schiavo, Tom DeLay, Jack Abramoff, Valerie Plame, WMD, Duke Cunningham, Bob Ney, Ted Haggard, George "Macaca" Allen...
You say the Dems are the gang that couldn't shoot straight. Why don't you try leaving Clown World sometime? It's not so bad out here, really, you should try it.
Posted by: Earl at November 16, 2006 09:35 PM (x3DGU)
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Purple Avenger: the current crop of Repubs and their lobbyists are the most corrupt in modern memory: Cunningham, Abramoff, DeLay, Pombo, Ney, Brent Wilkes, Dusty Foggo, Safavian, Scanlon, Pombo, Weldon, etc etc are all in jail, under investigation, or irrefutably bankrupt morally. Rumor has it that Abramoff is still singing, and this list is not complete anyway.
The Dem William Jefferson is a crook. Murtha has some questions to answer, and maybe Harry Reid does also, but these two are very small potatoes compared to what your boys are in prison for. You're seeing what you want to see.
Posted by: Earl at November 16, 2006 09:45 PM (x3DGU)
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This is a huge story. So big that about 85% of the people in the country have no idea it even happened.
Posted by: Pug at November 16, 2006 09:47 PM (P9o6O)
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the current crop of Repubs and their lobbyists are the most corrupt in modern memory
I remember the last democrat congress. It was worse.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 16, 2006 10:43 PM (l8HpH)
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churchill was always careful to be magnanimous in victory.
he kept chamberalin in his cabinet after replacing him.
pelosi should have been nicer to steny.
now, instead of a loyal number two, the caucus is split and her power;lessness exposed.
idiot.
and murtha - instread of fighting for the spot with everything he had, he shoulda cut n run. heh.
Posted by: reliapundit at November 16, 2006 10:49 PM (5SrUH)
20
Purple Avenger: bull, and that's why you don't even try to back it up. Go on, list the Dems from 90-94 who ended up in jail or resigned in disgrace. There probably were some, but nothing like what we are seeing now.
Like I said, you see what you want to see, even when you can't even prove your beliefs to yourself.
Posted by: Earl at November 16, 2006 10:51 PM (x3DGU)
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reliapundit: a cute little baby Instapundit, heh.
It must be nice to live in a world as simple as yours. Maybe one day you'll grow up and realize that anyone who says "the left|right|GOP|Dems|whatever is the root of all evil" is a moron.
Posted by: Earl at November 16, 2006 11:00 PM (x3DGU)
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World's BEST pout! lol
Posted by: chrys at November 17, 2006 01:44 AM (jIOFZ)
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I'm not sure which network news program I saw this on, might have bee PBS, but they covered quite a bit of this press conference and the whole time Murtha was scowling, pouting and grimacing in the background, he even stalked off early and had to be dragged back for pictures. The newsreader concluded the report with this gem, "Today, the Democrats were all smiles."
Posted by: Mr. Forward at November 17, 2006 02:56 AM (QZahU)
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I remember the last democrat congress. It was worse.
I do too, PA, and you're utterly full of crap. That Congress had plenty of crooks in it, but none of them so completely reneged on their job to provide oversight that they let the President slide on so many mistakes, crimes, and screw-ups. It's their job to keep the Pres in check, and even a bad Dem Congress could do that better than this crowd of cretins that's about to get shown the door. In fact, that's _why_ they're getting shown the door.
Oh, and Earl? I'll go ahead and get this out of the way for our more right-leaning commenters: In your list of corrupt Repubs, you listed Pombo twice. That, like, totally negates your entire point!
Posted by: legion at November 17, 2006 10:37 AM (3eWKF)
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ChickenhawkRob: "Funny how she gets credit for 'spending political capital' over this, but the President somehow squandered his when he held a madman in Iraq accountable for his actions."
So you think 3,000 soldiers, billions of dollars on our national credit card, and untold civilian casualties -- with no end in sight -- are worth deposing a tin pot dictator who was a threat to no one. Clown World is full of intrigue.
Posted by: Earl at November 17, 2006 11:36 AM (x3DGU)
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Legion - thanks, they will indeed take what they can get at this stage of the game.
Posted by: Earl at November 17, 2006 11:37 AM (x3DGU)
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I'm new to this site but not new to the world. I don't think it would be a stretch to say we all know there's corruption on both sides of the aisle, but as I was reading all these blogs, I'm thinking: 'These sound like intelligent, informed people. I wonder if they're DOING anything to help improve the 'system' or just flexing their 'knowledge expounding' muscles.' I'm thinking that, with all the intelligence I see here, that someone could come up with an idea for getting this country back to the ideals of our Founding Fathers, and not just talking (or arguing)about how bad it is and which party did what (and got caught). What can we do to change things?
Posted by: mngranny at November 17, 2006 01:15 PM (Jlwx3)
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Not by the Hair of His Chinny-Chin-Chin
Rumors have
long swirled that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was involved the 444-day
Iran hostage crisis, with no less than five hostages coming forward to accuse him publicly of being one of the ringleaders. Other former hostages have said they were uncertain if Ahmadinejad was involved, while others deny his presence.
From time to time the story reemerges with a new twist, and this time that twist was provided by Russian online daily Kommersant, which ran an English-language article with accompanying pictures that seem to show a young Ahmadinejad leaning against the wall of the American embassy in Tehran the day it was stormed.
Texas Rainmaker is convinced that the man in the photo is Ahmadinejad, while Daniel Pipes isn't sure, and Allah flatly says it isn't the Iranian president.
Who's right?
I decided to see if I could get a professional to weigh in on the controversy, and so I sent a short email to several forensic photographers and biometrics experts asking their opinions, based upon the version of side-by-side comparison photo provided at Hot Air.
Certified Forensic Photographer Alexander Jason responded. His verdict?
With the one 1979 photo alone for comparison, it is not possible to make a strong conclusion about that man being the same man in the later photo. However, based upon an analysis of the 1979 photo and other, recent photos of Ahmadinejad, it is my preliminary conclusion that these are NOT the same person.
Some time ago, I was asked by a governmental group to perform an analysis of similar old and new photos. I still had a collection of the recent photos and I used some of them for my analysis.
While there are substantial similarities in the faces and hairlines, it is possible to have such similarities among different people, particularly when they are from a relatively homogenous racial population. The only significant difference I could detect was in the beard grown pattern: Specifically in the area beneath the lower lip. In the older photo, the man appears to have a dense, full beard in that area. In more recent photos of Ahmadinejad, he appears to have relatively sparse beard growth in that area. For that reason, based on the one old photo when compared against more recent photos, it is my opinion that they are two different people.
See the attached image.
Mr. Jason's well-trained eye caught what most of us would have missed. The armed man leaning against the embassy wall in November of 1979 has much more facial hair in the chin area than does Ahmadinejad in the present day photograph. And just in case anyone wants to speculate that Ahmadinejad could have suffered from male pattern chin baldness over time, Mr. Jason has that covered as well.
We may never know who the man with the battle rifle leaning against the U.S. embassy wall in 1979 was, but based upon the photo provided by Kommersant and Mr. Jason's analysis, that man is not Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
* * *
On an unrelated note, Mr. Jason also has an interesting perspective on the JFK assassination.
Who says those working in forensics can't have a sense of humor?
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Posted by: Sissy Willis at November 16, 2006 01:23 PM (FU1id)
2
I mentioned the sparse facial hair either side of center below the lip yesterday at Hot Air as the reason I did not think it was Ahmadinejad. It's not something that changes, to which I can personally attest and, I should add, is why I noticed it rather quickly.
OTOH, I'm now uneasy about concurring with a forensic photographer that holds an opinion of the JKF assassination that clearly amounts to quackery. :-)
Posted by: Dusty at November 16, 2006 02:03 PM (GJLeQ)
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Sissy,
That photo's been
debunked.
Good work, CY.
Posted by: John from WuzzaDem at November 16, 2006 03:09 PM (Pt3Le)
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it doesn't matter whether he was a hostage taker or not, he is still scum that the world would be better off without...
Posted by: steve sturm at November 16, 2006 03:55 PM (UDiGL)
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I'm lost. So he hijacked the US Embassy. I'm fond of the U.S but you guys have consistently intefered with Iran for decades now and as far as I can work out, Iraq is the first time Iran has been close enough to fight proper soldiers. Which incidentally is a fight that is commonly held to be a losing battle for the US.
He's a weird character Ahmadinejad though. Typical Phd engineer. Here's some interesting video of him I came across.
http://wcbstv.com/video/?id=91788@wcbs.dayport.com
Posted by: Charles Frith at November 16, 2006 03:57 PM (fuc2r)
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Yes, Charles, you are lost and which also has little, if anything, to do with CY's post.
Posted by: Dusty at November 16, 2006 04:12 PM (GJLeQ)
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CY,
I think you mean Mr. Alexander, not Mr. Jason.
Not that there's anything wrong with that!
Buck Naked
Posted by: George Costanza at November 16, 2006 04:45 PM (D3sAj)
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Uh... If you look at a picture of me from 1979 and compare it to now, you're going to see a whole lot more hair on top of my head than there is now. In my case, the beard still grows as thickly as it did then (although the color of the hair has changed) but who is to say that Male Pattern Baldness can't strike the chin as well as the top of the head?
Posted by: The Monster at November 16, 2006 06:29 PM (tw5mW)
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That guy is too old to be Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. My guess is that is his father.
Posted by: scotty at November 16, 2006 06:51 PM (MO9mZ)
Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 09:09 PM (qf+tj)
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ahmm...has anyone ever heard of beard trimmers? Some weeks my beard below my lip is full. Some is neatly trimmed. Lets look at his nose. Flat and wide.The bags below his eyes, the large earlobes. Im more inclined to say that its an older sibbling. But not just because of facial hair trim style. Paleeeze.
Posted by: Rey at November 16, 2006 11:29 PM (vV0wU)
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From globalsecurity.org: "When the idea of storming the American embassy in Tehran was raised by the OSU, Ahmadinejad suggested storming the Soviet embassy at the same time!" (Former hostage Colonel David Roeder states: Out of his 51 interrogations, Ahmadinejad personally had conducted one-third of them!)
Posted by: MB at November 17, 2006 06:49 PM (TOHVc)
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November 15, 2006
Who Needs Jews, Anyway?
Ralph Peters penned a powerful editorial in this morning's
New York Post advocating that the strongest measures be taken to impose order in Iraq, even if that order goes against the wishes of Iraq's elected government and comes at
the barrel of a gun:
With the situation in Iraq deteriorating daily, sending more troops would simply offer our enemies more targets - unless we decided to use our soldiers and Marines for the primary purpose for which they exist: To fight.
Of course, we've made a decisive shift in our behavior difficult. After empowering a sectarian regime before imposing order in the streets, we would have to defy an elected government. Leading voices in the Baghdad regime - starting with Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki - would demand that we halt any serious effort to defeat Shia militias and eliminate their death squads.
[snip]
From the Iraqi perspective, we're of less and less relevance. They're sure we'll leave. And every faction is determined to do as much damage as possible to the other before we go. Our troops have become human shields for our enemies.
To master Iraq now - if it could be done - we'd have to fight every faction except the Kurds. Are we willing to do that? Are we willing to kill mass murderers and cold-blooded executioners on the spot?
[snip]
Our "humanity" is cowardice masquerading as morality. We're protecting self-appointed religious executioners with our emphasis on a "universal code of behavior" that only exists in our fantasies. By letting the thugs run the streets, we've abandoned the millions of Iraqis who really would prefer peaceful lives and a modicum of progress.
We're blind to the fundamental moral travesty in Iraq (and elsewhere): Spare the killers in the name of human rights, and you deprive the overwhelming majority of the population of their human rights. Instead of being proud of ourselves for our "moral superiority," we should be ashamed to the depths of our souls.
We're not really the enemy of the terrorists, militiamen and insurgents. We're their enablers. In the end, the future of Iraq will be determined by its people. The question is, which people?
While Peters discusses Iraq specifically, much of what he says—particularly of our fantasy of a "universal code of behavior" and our enablement of terrorists—can be more or less directly applied to the budding nuclear terrorist state of Iran.
Iran has already developed long-range missiles that can reach Israel and most of Western Europe, and they are in the process of developing ICBMs capable of hitting the United States. Iran is also in the possession of MIRV warheads to sit atop these missiles designed to deliver a nuclear payload.
At the same time as they refine the technology to deliver nuclear warheads, the Iranian leadership has clearly and repeatedly threatened the existence of Israel, and has indeed stated that they are more than willing to accept a retaliatory nuclear strike if it means eliminating the Jewish state, as Ron Rosenbaum recounts this morning at Pajamas Media:
Back in 2002 I initiated a major controversy among Jewish writers by daring to mention the possibility of a “second Holocaust”—-the destruction of the State of Israel, most likely through a nuclear exchange. I quoted Iranian mullah Hashemi Rasfanjani declaring that Iran would not be particularly upset to lose 10 or 15 million people in a nuclear exchange with Israel if it resulted in the extermination of 5 million Jews there and left a billion or more Muslims alive. Basically he was saying that there was no deterrence. Many didn’t want to face this, think the unthinkable and whined that one shouldn’t say such things aloud, one shouldn’t think so pessimistically, foolishly boasting of the Israeli nuclear deterrent Rasfanjani’s stance made irrelevant. (You can read about this controversy in the anthology of essays on anti-semitism I edited, Those Who Forget the Past).
Alas a Second Holocaust is now virtually Iranian state policy.(although their leader denies the firs tone). Today Drudge links to a report that Iran’s nuclear program is nearly complete. And to a speech by Bibi Netanyahu in Los Angeles in which he says “It’s 1938 and Iran is Germany”. He then adds the despairing “No one cared then. No one cares now.”
The problem is that even if the world did care, it might not make a difference.
Despite repeated threats against Israel's very survival in specific and that of the rest of the world in general, Iran has been allowed to push through with their nation's nuclear program without any serious attempts by the world community to stop them.
Have we, as a world community, decided that the state of Israel and the more than 6 million Jews, Christians, and Arabs who live there and the almost 1.5 million Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are superfluous? Judging by the anemic actions of the world community, I think Rosenbuam's suggestion that the world—including the government of the United States—does not care that Iran seems to have every intention of attempting to "wipe Israel off the map" is entirely correct.
Certainly, we will all feel really bad when Iran carries through with it's threat, but that sentiment will do very little for the 15-20 million people that will have died in the coming nuclear exchange while we stood by watching, unbelieving that the Iranians would do precisely what they told us they would.
Have we chosen to abandon them to this fate? Have we already forgotten in such a few generations that we stood solemly amid the blood and ashes and swore "Never again?"
Let's rewrite one of the Peter's paragraphs above:
Our "humanity" is cowardice masquerading as morality. We're protecting self-appointed religious executioners with our emphasis on a "universal code of behavior" that only exists in our fantasies. By letting the thugs run the streets, we've abandoned the millions of Iraqis Israelis who really would prefer peaceful lives and a modicum of progress.
We're blind to the fundamental moral travesty in Iraq Iran (and elsewhere): Spare the killers in the name of human rights, and you deprive the overwhelming majority of the population of their human rights. Instead of being proud of ourselves for our "moral superiority," we should be ashamed to the depths of our souls.
We're not really the enemy of the terrorists, militiamen and insurgents. We're their enablers. In the end, the future of Iraq the world will be determined by its people. The question is, which people?
Which people, indeed.
Does a mullahcracy intent on exterminating more than six million people (along with 10-15 million of their own citizens as a result of Israel's dying retaliatory strike) get to choose the future of this world through nuclear genocide? Or do we make the difficult and deadly decision to end the mullacracyÂ’s reign, crushing their nuclear aspirations and their leadership before they can carry out their intentions?
Our choice of genocides is amazingly simple: we either wipe out Iran's apocalyptic Hojjatieh mullacracy (perhaps thousands or tens of thousands of lives) and their budding nuclear weapons capability and delivery systems, or we will watch on as horror as our inaction leads to the fiery deaths of tens of millions, including 6 million Jews, 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, and 10-15 million Iranians.
Rosenbaum is wrong when he says that we might not make a difference. We clearly can make a difference, but much to our shame, I fear that we will choose not to.
Note: More here.
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Let me get this straight. One of the leading arguments for not reducing troop levels in Iraq is that it would increase violence. Another is that it would look like an admission of failure on Bush's part. And now Peters is suggesting that the only "sane" (for some value of sanity) option is to basically re-invade a country we already occupy, overthrow the government WE PUT INTO PLACE IN THE NAME OF DEMOCRACY, and start executing people like Pol friggin' Pot. Remember the purple fingers? Those fingers are now flipping us the bird. And Ralph Peters wants to kill them for it.
Posted by: legion at November 15, 2006 12:54 PM (3eWKF)
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"...tens of thousands of lives... or tens of millions..."
While I agree with the premise (we must crush Iran now, or else) I think the above is the equivalent of any moral equivalence I've seen anywhere.
In a proper morality, the lives of the enemy are not compared in cost-benefit analysis of the lives of our own citizens or military personnel.
If we had to kill 10,000,000 enemies to save one US soldier, morally we ought to do it.
Anything else is a decision to kill US soldiers for the sake of the enemy, which is treason.
I do not know if it's possible to crush Iran's mullocracy, nuclear program, and means to re-estabish either, without a massive (or nuclear) strike at this point. If not, then we had better strike them before they strike us.
Posted by: Bearster at November 15, 2006 03:09 PM (YyTqJ)
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If we had to kill 10,000,000 enemies to save one US soldier, morally we ought to do it.
You, sir, are a filthy, amoral bastard. And you have no idea what the word 'moral' means.
Posted by: legion at November 15, 2006 04:42 PM (3eWKF)
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Legion:
You've slung personal attacks, but failed to make any argument at all.
Posted by: Bearster at November 15, 2006 05:11 PM (YyTqJ)
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Aside from the moral argument, there is also a practical one. By use of "surgical strikes" to remove a dictator and his top staff, we allow the population to preserve the culture that created the dictatorship, and which would re-create it if we didn't occupy it (as in Iraq).
One reason why Germany and Japan did not revert to their previous behavior is that we crushed their will. Broken, utterly defeated, humiliated, with no way to convince themselves that their old behavior "worked", they were ready to make a change.
Posted by: Bearster at November 15, 2006 05:21 PM (YyTqJ)
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OK Bearster, here goes.
Being our enemy, or being another religion, does not remove someone from the realm of humanity. Dehumanizing and demonizing the enemy can make it easier for troops about to go into direct conflict to fight, but when those tactics are used on civilians back home, it cheapens the value of all life. You say:
In a proper morality, the lives of the enemy are not compared in cost-benefit analysis of the lives of our own citizens or military personnel.
If we had to kill 10,000,000 enemies to save one US soldier, morally we ought to do it.
That's not a 'proper morality', Bearster. It's evil. Especially when you have other options besides killng those 10M. I don't think it's a good solution to the situation in Iraq, but if we brought every one of our soldiers home tomorrow, no more would die there. Iraq isn't realistically capable of threatening the US or anyone else, and won't be for decades. Why isn't that a viable option?
Yet you seriously propose a nuclear strike on Iran, something that would kill millions of people, as the most viable option. And rather than even making the limp effort of something like 'you gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet' to defend the deaths of the countless innocent civilians such an act would cause, you go fully into genocide mode - as though any conflict between our culture and another is entirely the fault of the 'others' and their inherently inferior culture.
One reason why Germany and Japan did not revert to their previous behavior is that we crushed their will. Broken, utterly defeated, humiliated, with no way to convince themselves that their old behavior "worked", they were ready to make a change.
And if you actually believe that, you are not merely arrogantly amoral, you're also a complete raving idiot. I pity you, and I fear for the future of both America and the entire human race.
Posted by: legion at November 15, 2006 06:11 PM (3eWKF)
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Bearster-- I'm not sure about Germany, but another big reason Japan was unable to revert is because it was written into their constitution that it's illegal for their SDF (self defense force) to deploy. They had to re-write a part of their constitution recently to allow a unit to deploy to Iraq for humanitarian missions.
Being crushed and humiliated is a perfect breeding ground for someone to step up, give a forlorn country an identity, and have another go at it. Post WWI Germany is a perfect example of this, and the apathy of her neighbors enabled it. I think the main reason that each country didn't revert (or in the case of Japan, be made into a slave colony by the rest of Asia) is because the US took a proactive role in not allowing it to happen. (Japan also didn't have any resources, and again, the rest of Asia would have happily taken their revenge on Japan, maybe making it a worker's paradise, if the US didn't establish a strong presence there.) To assume that people will come to the conclusion (as a nation) that their old behavior simply didn't work and it was time to make a change may be giving them a little too much credit. Plus behavior is inextricably linked with culture, and people aren't real big on forsaking it, particularly in Asia where tradition is so important.
My 2 cents.....A little off topic, and probably totally off base, so take it for what it's worth.
Posted by: paully at November 15, 2006 06:18 PM (yJuX3)
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That's not a 'proper morality', Bearster.
That's precisely the morality calculus Truman employed in deciding to nuke Japan. An est 500,000 US military casualties against a couple of Japanese cities and thousands of civilians.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 15, 2006 06:54 PM (l8HpH)
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Y'all missed my point.
If there is a way to eliminate Iran's capability to wage terror war against the US through its proxies, and to eliminate its capability to develop a nuclear bomb, I am all ears. Let someone propose something feasible.
I say "eliminate" because appeasement is irrational, and there is no kind of persuasion that works on people who are immune to logic.
My point was that if you must wage war, then you owe a moral duty to the poor schmucks you send to fight it. You must promise them: "we will not waste your lives!" This is in addition to the moral duty to protect the lives of innocent American citizens (that's us, by the way).
This means if you can save their lives--or ours--by killing more of the enemy, then you must do that. There is no number that changes this principle. It is not an equation that is "balanced".
The purpose of a response is not to serve a self-defeating notion of "proportion" but to prevent them from doing it again.
If one must wage war, then one must fight utterly to win, to win as swiftly as possible, and with the minimum possible cost to one's own. If one must wage war, then one must do so without hesitation, without half-actions, without partial committment, without mercy.
By the very moral code Legion is espousing here, we're "successful" in Iraq. Our troops are there being sacrificed to protect the lives of Iraqis. Bush feels this is the moral way to wage war. What's wrong with it? Why not send thousands of innocent American military personnel to save tens or hundreds of thousands from death, slavery, or even from poverty??
The perverted moral code of altruism doesn't offer an argument.
Meanwhile, the enemy is laughing at our moral weakness, even as they raise the ante.
Iran, let's not forget, is run by an apocalytpic mass-murdering madman who has convinced me that he wouldn't mind going to paradise if he could kill us in the process. Do you disagree with this premise, or only with the implication?
We could simply hope he doesn't mean it. But hope is not a plan.
We could try appeasement. Maybe it will work better this time, somehow?
We have one choice. We can either destroy Iran's capacity to wage war, or we can let them raise the ante with nuclear bombs.
P.S. What is monstrously immoral is to have mercy for the enemy, but none for innocents. The gut-wrenching sight of people burning--or jumping--to death from the WTC will be nothing compared to nuclear bomb, or even a dirty bomb, dropped on NY. What if they do it to several cities at the same time?
Posted by: Bearster at November 15, 2006 08:47 PM (YyTqJ)
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This is what I am hoping for. The US will continue with the moral bull as expressed in the threads so far. This will enable and encourage the terrorist or Muslims (same thing) to indeed do somehting terrible such as a nuclear device in New York or one of the other northern cities. That will trigger the economic catastrophy that has been as sure thing with the extraordinary personal and national debt we have. As some point the South will get the idea once again that we can truly be free. We can then make our bid possibly with the assistance of the Muslim world. So we really do win!!
Posted by: David Caskey at November 15, 2006 09:22 PM (6aPuF)
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David, seriously -- up your meds.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 15, 2006 10:22 PM (l8HpH)
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Iraq is a diversion. As the army attacks Iraq, the US gov't erodes rights at home by suspending habeas corpus, stealing private lands, banning books like "America Deceived" from Amazon, rigging elections, conducting warrantless wiretaps and starting 2 illegal wars based on lies. Soon, another US false-flag operation will occur (sinking of an Aircraft Carrier) and the US will invade Iran, (on behalf of Israel).
Final link (before Google Books bends to gov't demands and censors the title):
http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?&isbn=0-595-38523-0
Posted by: 5th of November at November 16, 2006 06:32 AM (F7awS)
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Purple,
Unfortunately, I feel I have to be serious on this. It sounds like sarcasm or trying to be funny, but look at the reality of the situation.
The US is like a stack of dominos. One thing that pushes us in the wrong direction and it will fall apart. So, if terrorist preformed a nuclear explosion in NY then the financal situation will begin to unravel. With the debt that all owe, this will not take much to elicit a severe depression.
Now, many of us do not feel exactly "free". Several sections such as the Pacific region already desire to bust up the Union. You will argue that we are the most free nation on earth and that may be true, but if you compare our situation to that before 1860, we are basically slaves. I am one of the 10% that actually pay taxes in the US and am beginning to be very mad at local, state and federal governments wanting more. This is one small example, I could provide an endless list of ways the government infringes on us (try getting on a plane). As such, the South represents a section that has interest and goals that do not go parallel with the NE of the US that seems to constantly tell us what to do. So ultimately the South will go its own way.
Moralize about the use of weapons of mass distruction all you want. If you want this country to survive as is, you better start killing and getting control of alot more Muslims. As for me, I am looking to a brighter future.
Posted by: David Caskey at November 16, 2006 09:48 AM (xxoPt)
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My point was that if you must wage war, then you owe a moral duty to the poor schmucks you send to fight it. You must promise them: "we will not waste your lives!" This is in addition to the moral duty to protect the lives of innocent American citizens (that's us, by the way).
This means if you can save their lives--or ours--by killing more of the enemy, then you must do that. There is no number that changes this principle. It is not an equation that is "balanced".
OK, that's something I can agree completely with - the context of actual conflict. I can't agree with something like that as a pre-emptive or preventative move, however, and I didn't gather that focus from your earlier comments. By that standard, FWIW, I believe the atom bombs on Japan were actually justified - we were already at war & committed to victory; I don't see the same level of threat (yet) from Iran.
Why is that important? Why let Iran get even closer to the brink? Because of exactly what they (and NK also) are doing now - saber rattling. Right now, we're in the process of trying things below the level of open warfare to get Iran off their current course. Yes, appeasement is pointless, but there are other tools we can use. They may not work against Iran, but I believe we are morally obligated to try them before the 'nuclear option'. The problem, with Bush's preventative war policy (and what it sounds to me lilke you're proposing) is that the _next_ country that nears nuclear capability _won't_ make any noise about it. They'll just drop it on whichever enemy they feel poses the greatest threat to them at the time. It actually makes us _more_ likely to be struck by nuclear terrorism, not less.
P.S. What is monstrously immoral is to have mercy for the enemy, but none for innocents. The gut-wrenching sight of people burning--or jumping--to death from the WTC will be nothing compared to nuclear bomb, or even a dirty bomb, dropped on NY. What if they do it to several cities at the same time?
You do remember, don't you, that Iraq (and IIRC Iran also) had _nothing_ to do with that attack? And that the US is doing just about nothing to locate the guy who did? And that the leading support structure for that asshat was (and possibly still is) Saudi Arabia? Just sayin'...
Posted by: legion at November 16, 2006 10:21 AM (3eWKF)
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I strongly disagree with the estimation here for the loss of lives if Iran has a nuclear bomb. It is maybe 5% of the estimation in my circles.
Imagine you were the Iranian president, and you have just been handed with the nuclear weapon. If you fire at Israel now, Israel fires back, and the whole thing is over. You are no longer the Middle East super power you have been for the past years, you loose your chance in bringing to the coming of doomsday, which the Iranian regime is with no doubt committed to, and you are just left to leak your wounds while Israel is leaking its wounds, and maybe the second half of the Jewish people of the Diaspora rejoin to educate their kids to reestablish Israel once the soil and the water are recovered, which according to the Iranian view is a very likely script, seeing that they feel it is the world's guilt over the first holocaust, that had enabled the establishment of the first Israel.
It would be much more reasonable of them, in view of their agenda, to:
1. Cooperate with global spread terror groups that can take their nuclear bombs to places they either can't reach by missiles or they would prefer to use terror cells rather than missiles, because missiles would have a sender address to retaliate, while bombs activated by terror cells would not. Note that for that purpose it would be much better for them to use Sunni terror groups than Hizb-Allah for example, because the harder it is to prove the source to retaliate, the more time they are going to gain to go on with their agenda of bringing back the Imam. Nevertheless, it is reasonable to assume they would use whatever terror group that has the "best" proven ability to strike successfully, and maximize the ability of the nuclear bombs, by hitting major targets.
2. Strike as many incapable of retaliating targets, before they strike Israel. Once they strike Israel it would be over for them. Our stated policy is that a strike by Iran would not mean 10-15 millions deaths in Iran, but the destruction of the whole of Iran for 300 years. You can count on it being true, and Iran knows that as well. So why not start with making sure that "betrayers" in the Muslim world end their way, and that only "pure" Muslim practicing societies for the satisfaction of Allah are left to great the Imam? You would be surprised of how crucial that is on their agenda. It is not the charismatic call that can unite Muslims behind them, not like "Death to Israel", but it is not less important to them, and they have been practicing the promotion of that agenda with no less efforts than the agenda of sabotaging any chance of peace with Israel and its neighbors. Take into consideration that the very existence of Israel makes them the leaders of so many Muslims and justifies what ever they do in the eyes of their public. So they won't loose this "joker" until they are ready and have made all the arrangements for the coming of the second Imam to feet their view of how the world should look greeting it.
And this brings me to another major cause of deaths the estimation you have shown does not take under consideration. Because Muslim states that are considered to be traitors in the eyes of Iran, such as Saudi-Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, and all of the states that have cooperated with the west, or fought Shiites in their own regimes, know exactly how serious Iran's threat to them. That's why a nuclear bomb to Iran by no means can only mean that. It with no doubt means a hysterical race towards that bomb among those countries, and then among the whole Middle East, by any regime that has oil to fund those aspirations. That means that a whole out nuclear war is no longer a question of "if" but rather a question of "when". It also means that to include only Israel's and Iran's casualties in the estimations for the loss of lives due to a nuclear Iran is in my (and others in Israel) humble opinion completely mistaken.
Posted by: an Israeli at November 16, 2006 07:19 PM (7A241)
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Ouch
It's been barely a week since the 2006 midterms, and
WaPo Ruth Marcus is wasting no time on judging Nancy Pelosi's leadership thus far.
Her grade for Pelosi for stating she would "lead the most honest, most open and most ethical Congress in history," and then backing John "Abscam" Murtha for House majority leader?
Not Good.
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Well, considering that Pelosi isn't even actually _leading_ Congress yet, and considering that when she does, she'll be following what will likely go down in history as the least honest, least open, and least ethical Congress in history, I'd have to say Marcus' hackery has blinded her to the mote in her own eye...
Posted by: legion at November 15, 2006 10:51 AM (3eWKF)
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How odd, whenever I quote WaPo I'm immediately slapped down on the basis of the Post being part of the MSM cabal. I guess you have to know which parts are pieces of the sinister plot and which pieces are real news.
Posted by: Earl at November 15, 2006 05:40 PM (4+fzl)
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I guess you have to know which parts are pieces of the sinister plot and which pieces are real news.
Easy enough to distinguish them. Just look at the timing.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 15, 2006 06:48 PM (l8HpH)
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Bela Pelosi and the opening credits to her upcoming horror show....she and her cronies elevate Dick Turban (our troops are Nazi equivalents), the doddering and addle-brained Wrongway Peter Peachfuzz ...Frank Murkthought...and the oily, slippery, and nefarious Oilseed Hastings...to positions of prominence right out of the chute.
I guess the "New Left" has a slogan after all. Vote for us and we'll lead you with... a wimp, a simp and a pimp.
Posted by: cfbleachers at November 15, 2006 08:13 PM (V56h2)
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Don't Worry - Michael "I'm Ugly" Moore, in an open letter to conservatives, has promised that the new DemoNcrat leadership and their groupies will rout out all corruption from Congress - starting with their own! I'm guessing that Harry Reid is up first.....
Posted by: Specter at November 15, 2006 10:42 PM (ybfXM)
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Legion isn't much on history is he/she? How many have gone to jail in the past 5 years vs how many went to jail during Slick Willie's regime? If you're going to scream thief, make sure you don't have a stolen wallet in your own pocket. Always remember, anyone that will lie to you, will steal from you, and I haven't known of an honest democrat in 50 years.
This is going to be the most comical two years in history. The life long corrupt cleaning up corruption. Coyote's guarding the hen house.
Posted by: Scrapiron at November 16, 2006 01:42 AM (Eodj2)
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has promised that...will rout out all corruption
I won't be holding my breath waiting for his slickly edited tell all expose when that doesn't happen ;->
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 16, 2006 03:35 AM (l8HpH)
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The Potomac's Not River In Egypt
Harold Meyerson has a particularly odd editorial posted this morning in the
Washington Post, insisting conservatives are in denial:
On their journey through the stages of grief, conservatives don't yet seem to have gotten past denial.
Republicans may have lost, conservatives argue, but only because they misplaced their ideology. "[T]hey were punished not for pursuing but for forgetting conservatism," George F. Will, conservatism's most trenchant champion, wrote on this page last week.
Their mortal sin, in this gospel, was their abandonment of fiscal prudence.
They doffed their green eyeshades and gushed red ink. "The greatest scandal in Washington, D.C., is runaway federal spending," said Indiana Rep. Mike Pence, the true-blue conservative who is challenging Ohio's John Boehner for the post of House Republican leader.
Holding conservatism blameless for last week's Republican debacle may stiffen conservative spines, but the very idea is the product of mushy conservative brains unwilling to acknowledge the obvious: that conservatism has never been more ascendant than during George Bush's presidency; that the Republican Party over the past six years moved well to the right of the American people on social, economic and foreign policy; and that on Nov. 7 the American people chose a more pragmatic course.
I bed to differ with Mr. Meyerson, on several points. First, while there are doubtlessly some conservatives in denial about why Republicans lost, it seems most of those reside inside the Beltway. From the Rove-influenced push for an ineffectual Mel Martinez to be RNC Chair, to an all-but-rigged push to install the same failed leadership into power on Capital Hill, it is the Beltway drones that seem to be in denial over why Republicans lost, not the rank and file conservatives in the rest of the country.
Denial is a stage of grief that most conservatives that I have come in contact with (either online or in person) skipped right past. In fact, most conservatives seem to have been rather pragmatic and have avoided the grief process altogether.
If you want to see an acute application of political grief for comparison, I suggest you instead look to prominent liberal personalities after the 2000 and 2004 elections.
Michael Moore was so depressed by Bush's 2004 win that he couldn't get out of bed for three days. Actor Vincent "Private Pyle" D'Onofrio "Lost his ****" and had to be treated by paramedics because of Bush's 2004 win.
Pearl Jam's Eddie Vedder, actor Alec Baldwin, former Kennedy Press Secretary Pierre Salinger and film director Robert Altman were just some of the liberal voices who were confirmed to have said they would leave the United States because of electoral results, though Salinger was the only one to follow through on his "threat."
Some liberal in past elections were so distraught over past elections that new psychological conditions were the result, with the serious Post Election Selection Trauma and satirical Bush Derangement Syndrome as a result.
No, Mr. Meyerson, most conservatives outside the Beltway were disappointed with the results of the election, but we understood why we lost.
The nation is unhappy with the way the War in Iraq is being fought. The nation is disgusted with greed in the form of pork-barrel politics symbolized by the Bridge to Nowhere, and runaway federal spending a Republican Congress and President supported. The nation was dismayed with how slowly and ineffectively the federal government reacted in the wake of Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, and by corruption both financial and sexual as personified by Jack Abramoff and Mark Foley. Immigration and stem cell controversies also alienated voters.
As for Meyerson's asinine statement, "that conservatism has never been more ascendant than during George Bush's presidency" I have but a simple two-word reply: Ronald Reagan.
But for all that Mr. Meyerson got wrong in his fundamental misunderstanding of the conservative mind, he did get something right when he concluded that Republicans ran a 2006 campaign "devoid of new ideas."
Hopefully, the conservative base will be able to reverse that course in elections to come.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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On this, CY, I completely agree. The W era has had practically nothing to do with conservatism, with the possible exception of social conservatism.
Posted by: legion at November 15, 2006 10:55 AM (3eWKF)
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November 14, 2006
Time Magazine Complicit In Fauxtography Scandal
Heads should roll.
Early on in the Lebanon war, there was a photograph published by both U.S. News and World Report and Time Magazine, which according to captions published with the picture was of a burning Israeli jet, shot down by Hezbullah missiles. The blogosphere was quick to call B.S. on the photo, and the widely-circulated story was that the photograph was actually that of a tire dump.
Well, it seems that the photographer responsible for taking the photograph, Bruno Stevens, has finally sounded off on Lightstalkers, explaining the photograph and telling the true story of how things ended up the way they did. He also notes that the site was not a tire dump, but was rather an old Lebanese Army base that had either been hit by an Israeli jet, or by a misfired Hezbullah rocket (both possibilites he appears to have recounted in his original captions). The key point that Bruno makes is that, while he sent in a fairly balanced caption to accompany the photograph, the wire services rewrote the caption completely, changing the pertinent facts surrounding the story. Where have we heard that before?
As Ace notes in his post on the subject:
That makes three representations thusfar by Time:
1) Hezbollah did not score a huge victory by shooting down an IAF jet.
2) The target was clearly legitimate.
3) Not only was this a legitimate Hezbollah target, it was parked on a Lebanese Army base, demonstrating cooperation between the Lebanese Government -- depicted as an innocent and abused third-party to this conflict by the media.
To compound the magazine's duplicity, Time refused to run a different picture that showed a Hezbollah rocket launcher disguised as a civilian truck on a Lebanese Army base.
To put it mildly, Time editors mislead their readers, and while I'm not a lawyer, this journalistic malpractice would certainly seem to meet at least a layman's understanding of fraud, if not something worse.
Why would Time do something so risky, so dishonest, so stupid?
As I wrote back in August, follow the money:
Story after story, photo after photo, dead and distraught Lebanese civilians clog the mediastream, building a false, grim montage of a war in which primarily Israeli soldiers and Lebanese civilians die.
This is not the whole truth of this war, but a partial truth developed through complacency and an apparent willful disregard to report the facts on the ground. Instead of seeking and publishing the entire truth, newsrooms have decided that they will publish the stories and images framed by foreign, mostly Arab Muslim reporters, even though their own cultural interests in these events are a clear and undeniable conflict of interest precluding even a pretense of unbiased reporting.
This is beyond bias, it is a reckless and willful disregard for reporting the whole truth in favor of reporting "news" that is easier to sell in a larger world media market. The casualty statistics are there, but the media sticks to the narrative they have helped create because while honest reporting is a goal, the business of the media business is business.
If it "bleeds it leads," but only if what leads sells advertising. News consumers around the world consume the news that more closely matches their perceptions of how reality should be, and stories critical of Hezbollah, stories that show their failures and deaths, don't sell in world population featuring 1.3 billion Muslims that hope for Israel's demise, or at the very best are indifferent to their fate. It is anti-Semitism by cashflow, a pocketbook jihad that buys the media's silence.
And yet, the photographer cannot be blamed here; it was the Time photo editors that made the willful decision to run a dishonest caption at odds with the description provided by the photographer, while suppressing another photo that shows apparent collusion between the Lebanese Army and Hezbollah.
This goes well beyond a mistake. Time has made the willful decision to slant, cover, and conceal news on behalf of a terrorist organization.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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If it was only about money, it would still be wholly indefensible, unethical, amoral...but American media news outlets, who have a de facto public trust in their hands...would at least be simply greedy when misleading, defrauding and slanting the news against America, her allies (especially Israel) Jews and Christians, conservatives, Republicans and anyone who doesn't agree with their far leftist agenda.
However, it is now impossible to accept that their aim isn't far more nefarious. Is Evan Thomas related to Norman Thomas? Are they now acting as the frontline for propagandizing against America, her allies (especially Israel) and actively engaging in the intentional weakening of our form of government?
It's a serious question that nobody wants to raise for fear of being marginalized. It won't gain traction, because there is no political party strong enough to seriously investigate it.
And it will eventually be our downfall.
Posted by: cf bleachers at November 14, 2006 05:24 PM (V56h2)
2
It just moved another mag to the check out line. Now everyone should know there is less truth in Time than most supermarket tabloids.
Posted by: Scrapiron at November 14, 2006 05:47 PM (0Co69)
3
Man, where is all the accountability that my mom worked so hard to terrify me with? Turns out I was right, I CAN do whatever I want! Who knew?
Posted by: The Fastest Squirrel at November 14, 2006 05:59 PM (z62e3)
4
Time needs to carry a Surgeon General's warning that reading it might make you a retard.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 14, 2006 07:08 PM (l8HpH)
5
That's pretty bad. It's almost as egregious as the U.S. military planting pro-American propaganda in Iraqi newspapers and trying to pass it off as the work of authentic Iraqi journalists.
Posted by: Arbotreeist at November 14, 2006 09:38 PM (N8M1W)
6
Time's not even subtle about their bias anymore. When checking out at Walgreens I noticed they had a special Time biased Middle East magazine with intro by Jimmy Carter, who just yesterday released an anti-Israel book with blatantly biased and inflammatory title Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid."
Posted by: Cindy at November 15, 2006 02:18 PM (iKM6r)
7
It's almost as egregious as the U.S. military planting pro-American propaganda in Iraqi newspapers
Of course you can show how those paid for stories were in fact false right?
What? I didn't think so...because nobody ever accused them of being false, only paid for.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 16, 2006 12:28 AM (l8HpH)
8
What? I didn't think so...because nobody ever accused them of being false, only paid for.
Kinda like Republican leaders.
Posted by: Arbotreeist at November 16, 2006 09:31 PM (N8M1W)
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Murtha: Fellow Dems "Swift-Boating Me"
Yeah, not an
exact quote, but pretty much
on the mark:
The race to be the No. 2 House Democratic leader turned nasty Tuesday, with challenger Rep. John Murtha accusing opponents of "swift-boat style attacks" that hark back to his days being investigated in the FBI's 1980 Abscam sting.
Murtha won endorsement Monday from Nancy Pelosi, who is widely expected to be the House speaker. But Murtha is opposed by some liberals who say they are not happy with the Pennsylvania lawmaker's pro-gun and anti-abortion record. Others say Pelosi took a wrong turn in backing Murtha over her current deputy Rep. Steny Hoyer because Murtha's record is marred by ethics questions of the type Pelosi pledged to clean up in Congress.
"I am disconcerted that some are making headlines by resorting to unfounded allegations that occurred 26 years ago. I thought we were above this type of swift-boating attack. This is not how we restore integrity and civility to the United States Congress," Murtha said of the ample press coverage of his link to Abscam and more recent negotiations he made as ranking Democrat on the Defense Appropriations Committee.
To date, Murtha hasn't yet accused his fellow Democrats of torpedoing his nomination "in cold blood."
Yet.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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What? I thought that all the Dems were in the same house and that they all played oh so nicely together. LOL. Love to see self-disintegration. Couldn't happen to two nicer people - Murtha and Pelosi. LOL. And to think she promised to clean up corruption in the House. Gawwwd....
Posted by: Specter at November 14, 2006 09:57 PM (ybfXM)
2
Unfortunately for him, fundamental character flaws like being prone to bribery, never get cured like a common cold.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 15, 2006 12:08 AM (l8HpH)
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Pu: Something Wicked...
Iran can quit lying about their intent to use their nuclear program for
peaceful means:
International Atomic Energy experts have found unexplained plutonium and enriched uranium traces in a nuclear waste facility in Iran and have asked Tehran for an explanation, an IAEA report said Tuesday.
The report prepared for next week's meeting of the 35-nation IAEA also faulted Tehran for not cooperating with the agency's attempts to investigate suspicious aspects of Iran's nuclear program that have lead to fears it might be interested in developing nuclear arms. As well, the four-page paper made available to The Associated Press confirmed that Iran continues uranium enrichment experiments in defiance of the U.N. Security Council.
Plutonium is an important by-product of the fuel cycle in operating nuclear reactors, producing almost a third of a nuclear power plant's energy.
The problem? Plutonium (Pu) should not logically exist outside of nuclear power production, and Iran does not yet have that capability. Bushehr is to have Iran's first production reactor, but it is still under construction.
That would seem to indicate that either Iran is importing plutonium, or that it has an undeclared reactor, which is admittedly far less likely, but technically possible. In any event, both the plutonium and enriched uranium found at the waste site may serve to push Israel closer to mounting a pre-emptive strike against Iran, which would in turn likely re-ignite Hezbollah's rocket attacks against Israel from Lebanon, putting UNFIL's "peacekeeping" forces in the middle, precisely where Hezbollah would prefer them.
It looks like a wider war in the Middle East may be coming sooner rather than later, and I'm increasingly convinced there is very little that anyone can do to stop it.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Question.
Was Ahmadinejad's announcement today that he'll have nuclear fuel by March 1} just an announcement he made to get on the West's nerves?
2) His way of saying "Give up on sanctions and on trying to stop me, it's a done deal already."
3) His way of saying "I've got nuclear capability so it's time to give in to my influence in Lebanon and to start dealing with me.
Posted by: CAL at November 14, 2006 02:04 PM (2KcnN)
2
Somebody explain why this thing is not going to end with either:
-A big, bright orange ball.
-A re-shuffled balance of power and ass-kissing of hairy middle-eastern hams to the maximum degree.
Dan Patterson
Arrogant Infidel
Posted by: Dan Patterson at November 14, 2006 02:32 PM (GWOjN)
3
And what will the UN do about Iran's breaking of agreements? Absolutely nothing. Isn't it about time we shed ourselves of this corrupt, do-nothing organization that spends most of its time criticizing the U.S. and little time actually responding to crisis issues?
Get US out of the UN!!!
Posted by: Todd at November 14, 2006 03:41 PM (Q7kOY)
4
Todd,
The UN is only as effective as it's member states' cooperation. We (the US) are as much a part of the problem as other nations (our veto of the resolution condemning a recent attack by Israel is a perfect example). Getting the US out of the UN is not realistic or even a good idea, unless you want to diminish our own power and influence.
Furthermore, the UN is not a collective defense agency, and is only partially a collective security organization. This means that the UN is tasked with many things other than waging war... I suggest you learn about those other roles (post-conflict resolution is one example) before spouting off about how bad the UN is.
Posted by: ME at November 14, 2006 04:05 PM (ZhBBw)
5
there is certainly nothing that can be done if you don't talk to them. this foreign policy is childish to say the least. it's like michael jordan...you can't stop him, you can only hope to contain him. bushes lack of a foreign policy has managed to contain nothing -- it has only succeeded in speeding n. korea and iran towards nuclear armament. maybe 41 has some more friends that can help him out now that he has f'ed it up so badly.
Posted by: jay k. at November 14, 2006 04:26 PM (yu9pS)
6
Yankee, you are overlooking an couple of essential facts: Russia is building the plant for the Iranians, and they have agreed to supply the Iranians with the needed nuclear fuel and the known date for completion was sometime in 2006. So, it's very possible they are much farther along than is publically being acknowledge by all sides. That's my suspicion.
On February 27, 2005, and after a one-day delay, Iran and Russia finally signed an agreement regarding providing the needed nuclear fuel for the Bushehr facility. Under the terms of the aggreement, Russia would provide nuclear fuel to Iran, who would in turn return the spent fuel back to Russia.
Also, since the late 90's there have been a number of contradictory statements from both the Russians and the Iranians as to the eventual online status of the plant,(a combination of delays and intentional diversion no doubt) the general consensus is that the plant would be near completion in 2006. (Thus the increased activity against it by the US and others.) A statement was released to this affect:
On 11 December 2004 Speaker of the Russian Federation Council Sergei Mironov stated that the first unit of the Bushehr nuclear power plant will be put into commission in 2006. He made the remarks during an official visit to Iran. "Moscow has a principled position on Russian-Iranian nuclear energy cooperation. Iran as a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty has the right to use nuclear energy for peaceful purposes," the speaker stressed.
Considering the tnese atmosphere, it would not be surprising to learn that the plant is indeed in testing phase as the spent fuel would attest to..
And, this statement isn't entirely correct:
Plutonium (Pu) should not logically exist outside of nuclear power production...
Pu exists in spent fuel rods, which are removed from the inner system and stored outside of the nuclear facility.
What "traces" means, is not clear from the article you cite, but I'd say there is the real chance that spent rods are being moved about in order to hide the possible fact that the plant is online, or in testing phase and soon to be online.
First two quotes from Global Security.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iran/bushehr.htm
Posted by: David @ SP at November 14, 2006 05:42 PM (cdQ8J)
7
there is certainly nothing that can be done if you don't talk to them.
Jay, I've been hearing alot about this suggestion to talk with Iran. Even Tony Blair's been saying it. But truthfully it's mindboggling to me. The Iranians are dead set in getting the bomb. They are trying to make an unholy alliance with Al Qaeda. (to quote the "Confederate Yankee" a couple of posts back) They've got too much control in Lebanon. Ahminajed (or however you spell his name) has talked about "spreading the message of martydom worldwide". (those were pretty close to the words he used) What exactly is talking with him going to do? Do you think talking with him will make him relinquish all that delicious stuff? I fail to understand this suggestion. Call me an over reactionary person if you want, but I'm dumbfounded.
Posted by: cal at November 14, 2006 06:03 PM (2KcnN)
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Cal,
There's nothing to be dumbfounded about. The mindset of Islam in the Middle East is pretty simple. Take over the world for Islam. That's it! No big secret. They just love this Liberal Horseshit attitude of we just need to talk and understand them, then they will just roll over like a good dog so we can rub their belly. Then we'll join hands and skip down the road singing Kum bi ya and the world we be great again without the evil conservatives in power.
Wake up braindead brainwashed Liberals. You can't deal with these people rationally. They hate us because we (the West) have freedom. They have hated the infidel west for many many years. I worked in the Middle east for years and saw it first hand. All this started back in the 70s. The US government blew it years ago. Both Dems and Repubs. Now we have a real mess to deal with. Look what happened to Lebanon. It was just the beginning.
JM
Posted by: JM at November 14, 2006 09:50 PM (4Y0kE)
9
And on the UN. I've seen first hand their wonderful corrupt influence on the world. They are about as useful as an underwater hair dryer. I second the Get US out of the un!
Posted by: JM at November 14, 2006 09:52 PM (4Y0kE)
10
Someone tell the 12th Imam to get the hell out of the well, and do something! I just do not understand how anyone can pray to a false moon god in a well.
ROPMA.
Posted by: Leatherneck at November 14, 2006 10:26 PM (D2g/j)
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JM,
If muslims cannot be dealt with rationally, then what do you suppose Bush thought he would accomplish by invading Iraq?
They hate us because we have freedom? That's incredibly simplistic, especially given that they have no real idea as to what freedom as we know it is. I bet they hate us far more for decades of meddling in Middle Eastern geopolitics. America supported Saddam for years. America supported the overthrow of Iran's democratically elected government in 1953. America always sides with Israel, even when they are the ones who misbehave.
Years of careless Middle East policy has given the Arab world plenty of reasons to hate us. Add a good dose of radical Islam and here we are.
Soon enough, Iran will have the bomb. What do you propose that America (or anybody else) do about it? If you have any good ideas, write 'em down and send them to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., Washington DC. I hear Bush is open to new ideas these days...
Enjoy!
Posted by: Tom Pain at November 15, 2006 12:03 AM (YFISO)
12
Soon enough, Iran will have the bomb. What do you propose that America (or anybody else) do about it?
Do what JFK did. Blockade and threaten a nuclear war.
It worked.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 15, 2006 01:18 AM (l8HpH)
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Purple,
Cuba is an island in our back yard. How the hell would we isolate Iran? If we did, what would that mean to global oil markets and, subsequently, our own economy?
It might very well boil down to mutually assured destuction, just like the cold war. That is, if somebody doesn't get the bright idea to volunteer all his fellow Iranians for martyrdom.
Posted by: Tom Pain at November 15, 2006 01:51 AM (RJ5ME)
14
Tom,
For some reason you assume I back Bush. That is not true at all! The Western Leaders really donÂ’t want to recognize what they are dealing with. Or that is their plan for gaining control of the worldÂ’s population. Choose your own poison.
They hated us long before we were born. This goes back to the founding of the cult called Islam. I studied the Koran many years ago because I actually was interested in converting to Islam and becoming a citizen of Saudi Arabia. The more I studied Islam the more I realized it was rooted in violence, hate, intolerance, and conquest. These are the things taught to children in school. The infidels must be conquered and Islam must prevail as the only true belief system on earth. Unlike most other belief systems Islam is their total way of life in the end. In Saudi for instance they have two groups of police driving around patrolling. One group is the regular traffic police and the other is the religious police. I dealt with their culture in their country because the money was very good and I knew that I could escape the insanity and return to the West. Now Islam is coming to the West with one purpose. To destroy the West force Islam on the rest of the world. ItÂ’s crystal clear to me, but I don't look at things with multi colored glasses from the 60s. Its not any polictical party in the West that brings on their hatred. And they do hate us because our freedom does not allow their belief system to be inforced. I talked first hand with people that survived the conquest of Lebanon by Islam. And that is exactly what it was.
JM
Posted by: JM at November 15, 2006 08:16 AM (VopGr)
15
The Jews learned first-hand to believe a man that says he wants to kill you - what difference the reason? I don't believe we need to acquire that lesson first-hand as well.
Posted by: Cindi at November 15, 2006 09:01 AM (asVsU)
16
Cuba is an island in our back yard. How the hell would we isolate Iran?
Are they gonna ship all that oil out overland in trucks? Don't think so. The strait of Hormuz is how wide again compared to the coastline of Cuba? Take a rough guess in terms of miles needing to be cordoned off. By my ruler, Iran looks a lot easier to choke off than Cuba ever was. Perhaps you can explain in detail why I'm wrong. Please be specific.
If we did, what would that mean to global oil markets and, subsequently, our own economy?
Oh, so we should let Iran nuke someone because it would hurt economically to stop them. Good logic there. If FDR had used such logic, all of Europe would be speaking German right now.
This is the first time I've ever seen a leftist make the argument that we should allow certified loons to nuke people because stopping it might be somehow "inconvenient".
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 16, 2006 12:38 AM (l8HpH)
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Viva, Las Vegas
Hey, we've got our
own show:
The first and only tradeshow, conference, and media event dedicated to promoting the dynamic industry of blogging and new media. If you are currently blogging, vlogging, podcasting, producing some other form of new media content, thinking about joining the exciting industry of new media or just want to know what this whole blogging phenomena is all about then you need to be at BlogWorld.
The inaugural event will take place in Las Vegas November 8th and 9th at the Las Vegas Convention Center with an exclusive corporate only conference November 7th.
The show floor will feature an abundance of products and services designed to help bloggers and new media entrepreneurs improve the look and functionality of their blogs, increase their readership, and monetize their blog. Bloggers will find suppliers like Broadband ISP's, Web hosting companies, blog publishing software, podcasting services, RSS syndication services, new media advertising networks, news readers, aggregators, computer hardware and software, widgets, badges and plug-ins, Wi-Fi services, affiliate program partners, and much much more!
Thousands of bloggers and other geeks let loose on Sin City... what could go wrong?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Aside from this?
http://patterico.com/2006/11/11/5377/lap-dancing-illegal-in-vegas/
Posted by: Ric James at November 14, 2006 11:24 AM (X4IDg)
2
The place survived Comdex for many years, it's doubtful you can do more harm.
Posted by: Jeff at November 14, 2006 11:46 AM (yiMNP)
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