December 13, 2006
Good, But Not Safe
Months ago, many liberals got bent out of shape over a Christian-themed video game called
Left Behind: Eternal Forces. The game is based upon the very successful
Left Behind fiction series, which is based upon the seven-year post-Rapture period described in Revelations.
Amazon.com provides a brief synopsis of book one, from Library Journal:
On a flight from Chicago to London, several passengers aboard Capt. Rayford Steele's plane suddenly and mysteriously disappear. When Steele radios to London to report the situation, he discovers that the incident on his plane is not an isolated phenomenon but a worldwide occurrence. As Steele begins his search for answers, he learns that the Christ has come to take the faithful with Him in preparation for the coming apocalyptic battle between good and evil and that those who have been left behind must face seven dark and chaotic years in which they must decide to join the forces of Christ or the forces of Anti-Christ.
While I've neither played the game nor read the series of books, it doesn't seem to be something worth getting upset about. The general plot seems to reflect a basic good vs. evil storyline, so why all the fuss?
Cue the latest round of liberal outrage from Ilene Lelchuck of SFGATE.com:
Clark Stevens, co-director of the Campaign to Defend the Constitution, said the game is not peaceful or diplomatic.
"It's an incredibly violent video game," said Stevens. "Sure, there is no blood. (The dead just fade off the screen.) But you are mowing down your enemy with a gun. It pushes a message of religious intolerance. You can either play for the 'good side' by trying to convert nonbelievers to your side or join the Antichrist."
The Rev. Tim Simpson, a Jacksonville, Fla., Presbyterian minister and president of the Christian Alliance for Progress, added: "So, under the Christmas tree this year for little Johnny is this allegedly Christian video game teaching Johnny to hate and kill?"
Both groups formed in 2005 to protest what their 130,000 or so members feel is the growing political influence and hypocrisy of the religious right.
In Left Behind, set in perfectly apocalyptic New York City, the Antichrist is personified by fictional Romanian Nicolae Carpathia, secretary-general of the United Nations and a People magazine "Sexiest Man Alive."
Players can choose to join the Antichrist's team, but of course they can never win on Carpathia's side. The enemy team includes fictional rock stars and folks with Muslim-sounding names, while the righteous include gospel singers, missionaries, healers and medics. Every character comes with a life story.
When asked about the Arab and Muslim-sounding names, Frichner said the game does not endorse prejudice. But "Muslims are not believers in Jesus Christ" -- and thus can't be on Christ's side in the game.
"That is so obvious," he said.
The game is based on a series of fiction books, which is in turn based upon the Pretribulationist variant of the futurist view of the biblical prophecy interpretation of the Book of Revelations. Put bluntly, it's fiction based upon fiction, based upon one of many interpretations of the most difficult to understand book in the Bible.
So why are liberals so upset? Aravosis complains that the game promotes mows down people based upon religious differences. Pandagon gripes that:
The object of the game is to convert heathens, Muslims or Jews; if they don’t come over to your side, you can kill them. – God Gameth, God Bloweth Away.
But the simple fact of the matter is that the gameplay is far, far more benign than many of the more popular video games on the market. In most games, you either kill your enemy, or they kill you. This game allows you the option of at least talking to your opponents, and trying to persuade them to convert to your point of view. Shouldn't that be commended? Not if youÂ’re a liberal, apparently.
I strongly suspect that the real problem of the liberal left with this game are far more visceral than even they realize.
They've grown up somewhat convinced that true Christians are all "turn the other cheek" pacifists, and as such, liberals feel free to mock, revile, and persecute Christian beliefs, Christian symbols, and Christians themselves without penalty of threat of danger—things they would never do to far more outrage-prone Muslims. This game, featuring both non-pacifist Christians and the clear refutation of the secular, "devil may care" way of life, scares them.
This game is a reminder for some, and a wake-up call to others, that the God of Christianity, as C.S. Lewis once alluded, is good, but not safe. No wonder they are terrified.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
Where's the outrage for the Grand Theft Auto series?
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 13, 2006 01:31 PM (cqZXM)
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I grew up in the Methodist chuch and have been a life long conservative. But Christian activities lately have begun to concern me. This game tries to mix violence with religion which should be avoided. However, we need to tone down religion in general. I think that the conservative movement has been killed by the Christians trying to push moral objectives on the rest of us. Just as the liberals are trying to push government interference in our lives in general. Both seem the same to me.
Posted by: David Caskey at December 13, 2006 02:04 PM (xxoPt)
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Retired Navy, there has been plenty of outrage over Grand Theft Auto over the years. I work in the schools, and I've heard the outrage ever since the games first came out.
About the God game, though: let's hear it for the followers of the Prince of Peace! "Thou Shalt Mow Them Down!" Isn't that one of the Commandments?
Posted by: Doc Washboard at December 13, 2006 02:33 PM (/Wery)
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I though you would
never ask:
The commandment "thou shall not kill" (Exodus 20:13; Deuteronomy 5:17), is better understood to mean "you shall not murder," most modern translations of the Bible rendered it this way. According to the Bible not all killing, the taking of a life, is murder. Murder is the unlawfully taking of human life. The command not to murder applies to human beings, not to killing animals or plant life for food. God gave animals to mankind for his use (Genesis 1:26-30; 9:1-4). But, this does not mean that humans have the right mistreat animals and the environment (Genesis 2:15; Deuteronomy 22:6-7; 25:4; Proverbs 12:10). Under the Old Covenant God allowed the Israelites to kill other humans under very special circumstances such as punishment for certain sins, for example, murder (Exodus 21:12-14, Leviticus 24:17, 21) and adultery (Leviticus 20:10, Deuteronomy 22:22-24). God also allowed the Israelites to engage in warfare and even gave them instructions about waging war (Deuteronomy 20:1-20). God also recognized that humans might accidentally kill each other, and he made provisions for this (Numbers 35:9-34; Deuteronomy 19:1-13).
The primary reason God hates murder is that out of all creation, only human are made in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27; 9:4-6). Even before the codification of the Ten Commandments at Mount Sinai the murder of other human beings was wrong (Genesis 4:8-12; 4:23-24; 9:4-6; Exodus 1:16-17). While on earth, Jesus spoke out against murder (Matthew 5:21-26; Mark 10:17-19). We also see in the writings of Paul (Romans 1:18, 29-32; 13:8-10; Galatians 5:19-21), James (James 2:8-11; 4:1-3), Peter (1 Peter 4:15-16) and John (Revelation 9:20-21; 21:7-8; 22:14-15) that murder is wrong.
In Matthew 5:21-26 Jesus amplifies the meaning of the sixth commandment. He brings out that to commit murder means more then just killing someone, it means having an angry and unforgiving attitude towards them. The apostle John elaborates on this by writing that to hate someone is the same as murdering them (1 John 3:15). Murder like all sin, beginnings in the human mind (Matthew 15:18-19; Mark 7:20-23) it starts as a thought, in this case hatred, which leads to the action of murder (James 1:13-15; 4:1-3). The opposite of hating someone is loving them, we should even love our enemies (Matthew 5:43-4
, seeking not revenge, but looking for ways to help them (Romans 12:17-21).
This sounds quite close to the premise of the game, where you attempt to convert your enemies first, and only kill them as a last resort.
Thanks for being a reliable patsy, Doc.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 13, 2006 02:44 PM (g5Nba)
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The general plot seems to reflect a basic good vs. evil storyline, so why all the fuss?
Are you saying that anyone who doesn't convert to Christianity is evil, and that killing the non-converters is an act of goodness?
Did you mean that Christians were evil for killing innocents (the good)?
This game allows you the option of at least talking to your opponents, and trying to persuade them to convert to your point of view. Shouldn't that be commended?
I can't believe you're arguing that talking to someone, or "persuading them to convert" before killing them, is somehow "commendable".
Posted by: AkaDad at December 13, 2006 03:00 PM (1RcP8)
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Are you saying that anyone who doesn't convert to Christianity is evil, and that killing the non-converters is an act of goodness?
Not at all. In the fictional, post-Rapture world created by the work of fiction this game is based upon, you only kill those who allied with the enemy, and only if you can't convert them.
I can't believe you're arguing that talking to someone, or "persuading them to convert" before killing them, is somehow "commendable".
It's far better than other video games, where mindless slaughter is the goal and the rule. In this game, killing is a last resort, when talking doesn't work. Here, you suffer a spiritual loss when forced to kill. That is indeed commendable, and something I wish other video game desires would consider.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 13, 2006 03:12 PM (g5Nba)
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I haven't been a Christian for over ten years now, but I don't see anything wrong with Left Behind: Eternal Forces.
On the other hand, I'm a big fan of the GTA series.
Posted by: Anonymous for now at December 13, 2006 03:51 PM (RMHg5)
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There seems to be a big misconception here.
If the game is anything like the books, the “good guys” are not killing the “bad guys” for not converting. Only in self-defense or when trying to stop the bad guys from killing others.
I donÂ’t doubt that Stevens & Co. is purposely fostering this misconception in order to justify their bias against traditional Christians. As can be seen with all the knee jerk responses on this thread. Many on the left need no stinkinÂ’ facts when they can invent reasons to bash those they deem as fundamentalists.
As with any video game parents should review for age appropriateness.
Posted by: Gnome Chumpski at December 13, 2006 04:29 PM (gF/W/)
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"...only kill them as a last resort."
Excuse me, but you seem to have missed that Biblical citation in your list. Could you reference that for me so I could look it up?
Posted by: Another Ed at December 13, 2006 04:30 PM (Q1Mmi)
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Could you reference that for me so I could look it up?
He said it is due to translational differences. The
Torah gets it correctly. "You shall not murder."
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 13, 2006 05:30 PM (RWCop)
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Sounds real to me. No one is killed. Those that truly believe go to the Lord. Those that don't truly believe have several years of trials and tribulations to decide where they want to go, heaven or hell. No fakery as most in the U.S. do will be allowed.
Posted by: Scrapiron at December 13, 2006 06:40 PM (YadGF)
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You guys forgot one thing: the game itself is terrible.
http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/928956.asp
And as for the whole violence debate thing, the scientific evidence is inconclusive at best.
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/commentary.aspx?id=17554
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/commentary.aspx?id=16183
Posted by: Alex at December 13, 2006 07:11 PM (Ti6co)
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CY, would you be as comfortable with an Islam-based video game in which Christians were given a chance to convert and, if they didn't, were killed?
Posted by: Doc Washboard at December 13, 2006 09:20 PM (3pbD2)
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Gee...
Do I point out the fact that there are literally dozens of jihadi video games and mods (conversions of pre-existing games) that don't even give the option of conversion, and simply go straight for murdering the infidels?
-OR-
Do I point out the fact that this is reality in many places, and so that such a game is superfluous?
Decisions, decisions...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 13, 2006 10:02 PM (HcgFD)
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Well, neither of those options answers my question.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at December 13, 2006 11:22 PM (3pbD2)
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This sounds quite close to the premise of the game, where you attempt to convert your enemies first, and only kill them as a last resort. -- Confederate Yankee.
---
Sounds pretty much like the grounds upon which Jesus Christ was crucified.
The Romans and Pharisees tried to convert the Son of God and when he refused to convert, they tortured and killed him.
I'm a faithful, lifelong Christian and a Methodist.
P.S. Does Jesus Christ mention anywhere in the Gospels that he would kill, or order killed, anyone who refused to "convert"? Does Jesus Christ tell his Disciples anywhere in the Gospels they have His permission to kill a person who refuses to convert? Is it not the Son of God, upon witnessing a stoning of a woman for adultery, said "He who is without sin cast the first stone?" And they all put down their stones?
Confederate Yankee, exactly what Bible are you reading?
Cheers And May God Bless You.
Douglas H. Watts
Augusta, Maine
Posted by: Douglas Watts at December 14, 2006 03:59 AM (8dg5C)
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CY -- Since you seem to be a Christian the Gospels you cite show what you say is directly opposite the teachings of the Son of God:
The opposite of hating someone is loving them, we should even love our enemies (Matthew 5:43-4
, seeking not revenge, but looking for ways to help them (Romans 12:17-21).
However, you say: "This sounds quite close to the premise of the game, where you attempt to convert your enemies first, and only kill them as a last resort."
Loving thy enemies does mean killing them if they do not "convert." And "looking for ways to help them" does not mean killing them because they do not "convert."
Could you cite a statement by Jesus Christ in the Bible in which he tells his Disciples they are allowed to murder people solely because they do not convert?
Thanks.
Douglas H. Watts
Augusta, Maine
May God Bless You.
Posted by: Douglas Watts at December 14, 2006 04:09 AM (8dg5C)
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Middle Eastern names do not preclude anyone from being Christian.
Also If one studies the tenets of Islam, we are all given the chance to convert...or be killed as an infidel.
Posted by: 2cups at December 14, 2006 06:23 AM (Narou)
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Doc,
I know, I was being sarcastic. My mind actually splits on things like this. A game is a game is a game, that's one side. The other that Alex pointed out is the scientific debate. While it is NOT conclusive, it does show hightened areas in the brain while playing games. These areas do change from one game to another, more specifically, violent or non-violent.
Any form of media is a vast learning tool. The brain is an ever-chainging organ and creates new pathways with repetitive actions (learning). While creating these pathways, it just learns, it is up to the individual to distinguish right from wrong. Most can, some can't (IMO). While I don't think games, violent movies, bad websites are the CAUSE of people going 'bad', I do think they Lend a Hand.
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 14, 2006 06:31 AM (a/5fw)
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To paraphrase the liberal response to Dan Quayle's criticism of the TV show Murphy Brown, "its a video game."
BTW, if it matters, I am a hard core atheist. I don't have a problem with this. It is only a freaking video game. Lighten up.
Posted by: ray_g at December 14, 2006 11:34 AM (NmR1a)
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Actually, a lot of the objections to this game are coming from other Christian groups.
Personally, as an atheist, I don't really care. Judging from the reviews I've read it's just not a very good game.
Posted by: A Hermit at December 14, 2006 12:47 PM (Ze7RI)
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"Actually, a lot of the objections to this game are coming from other Christian groups."
Santimony has always been secular, bi-partisan and color blind.
Posted by: ray_g at December 14, 2006 01:49 PM (IrbU4)
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would you be as comfortable with an Islam-based video game in which Christians were given a chance to convert and, if they didn't, were killed?
Define "comfortable".
Willing to bash it? Yes.
Willing to ban it? No.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 15, 2006 12:35 AM (xXVSL)
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Middle Eastern names do not preclude anyone from being Christian. -- Ray G.
---
This would not be surprising since Jesus Christ was a Jew, was the Son of God, was "Middle Eastern" and spent his entire life in the "Middle East."
Of course, I'm not a theologian.
Posted by: Douglas Watts at December 15, 2006 02:11 AM (8dg5C)
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Dear Mr. Confederate Yankee,
Whenever you can cite a statement by Jesus Christ in the Bible in which he tells his Disciples they should murder people because they do not convert, that would be appreciated.
I'll just be sitting here waiting for your answer while watching the continental plates collide.
Cheers.
P.S. There is a specific Gospel in which Jesus tells his Disciples exactly what to do if people do not heed His Word, but I will let you tell me about it, since you are a fairly good Biblical scholar.
Posted by: Douglas Watts at December 15, 2006 02:18 AM (8dg5C)
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Gee, Doug, I didn't know the host of this site owed you an answer. Perhaps you could point out the contract language for us so that I, too can come around to a site to demand action from the host. While you are scouring the site answering my question for me, I'll ask another: Do you have an opinion of your own that you would like to put forth?
Hey, don't worry about me, Doug, I'll just sit here waiting while you look up that first answer for me. But don't let that stop you from answering the second question.
Since this is really fun for me, and I bet it's a ball for you, too, perhaps you could tell me what exactly your opinion is? and be prepared to justify every statement that you make, providing citations to authoritative sources.
Don't hurt yourself trying to get those answers together, Doug. I'll just sit here as the earth continues its orbit about the sun.
Cheers,
Mikey NTH
Posted by: Mikey NTH at December 15, 2006 12:58 PM (O9Cc8)
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Douglas, what you and some others seem to be missing, is the setting of this game.
The game posits that:
A) God is real
B) God is the God of the Christian NT Bible
C) The Second Coming prophesy has come to pass, and the truly righteous have been taken to heaven.
D) Thos who are left are either undecided or sinners
E) God, ever the champion of free will, has given them 7 years to make up their minds, and decide which path to take
F) The devil is working to take over the world in those same 7 years
G) The war is between God's forces and the devil's
H) The people the players are trying to destroy are the ones who have chosen evil. The ones on the sidelines stay their, to the "good guys" until they choose to be good or chose to be evil.
Anyway, this game is not taking place in the here and now any more than Warcraft or Civilization do. The game takes place in a "world" where A-H are the reality. Unlike the real world, God has given people an extra commandment: Thou Shalt Make a Choice, and live with the consequences.
Are/were you upset about the game Black And White? How about Populus? Very similar notions.
How about Steven King's "The Stand". Sounds very much like "Left Behind".
Like any game or fiction, you must suspend disbelief to enjoy it.
What is it about this work of fiction that you must take so very, very seriously, and apply your belief that believers cannot suspend disbelief and enjoy the game without taking it into the real world and going on a killing spree or hate inspired actions against non-believers?
Do you also worry that kids will get their hands on a "Players Handbook" and try to cast spells? That they will think they really can vanquish goblins and dragons?
Or do you only worry that Christians won't be able to tell the fiction of a game from fact in the world?
(that is not to say that Christian's do not play role-playing games like D&D LOL)
Posted by: SCSIwuzzy at December 15, 2006 06:19 PM (Yx9if)
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Not to nitpick one example from an excellent comment, but people DO worry that D&D players will lose track of reality as well. There are a lot of misconceptions about D&D out there among the sanctimonious, along the lines that it is the next thing to demon-worship or can become so in groups of impressionable kids. Back when I was a teen in a church youth group, we were treated to a video explaining how D&D led kids to the Dark Side, with lectures from adults who obviously didn't have the first clue about the game (something to do with demons and magic, right? Sounds evil to us!) and probably even won't read fairy tales/Harry Potter to their children.
I wasn't about to stand up and point out how ignorant the video was, lest I expose myself as a geek who actually knew something about D&D.
Do I have a relevant point here? Well, barely: just that game-players have more capacity to distinguish game ethics from real ones than many hand-wringing adults suppose.
Posted by: Amber at December 16, 2006 06:23 PM (WYkdt)
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December 12, 2006
Surreallaw
Must have been a
butterfly indictment (my bold):
A day after authorities announced that a former New Hanover County deputy had been indicted in the shooting death of a Durham teen during a raid on a Wilmington home, members of the grand jury now say the indictment was a mistake.
The grand jury never intended to charge Cpl. Christopher Long with second-degree murder, but the foreman checked the wrong box on the indictment, authorities said Tuesday.
Peyton Strickland, 18, a Cape Fear Community College student from Durham, was shot to death Dec. 1 at his Wilmington home by deputies serving arrest and search warrants. Strickland and two friends were charged with assaulting a University of North Carolina at Wilmington student last month and stealing two PlayStation 3 consoles from him.
UNC-W police asked for support from the New Hanover County Sheriff's Office during the arrests of the suspects in the case because of the potential that they were armed and dangerous, authorities said. Strickland had an earlier arrest on a felony assault charge.
Was Theresa LePore the jury foreman by any chance?
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These guys sound like jerks, but don't you think it is past time to stop the cops from this type of activity? They are really beginning to become opressive.
Posted by: David Caskey at December 13, 2006 01:32 PM (xxoPt)
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David, Stop cops from what type of activity? Protecting themselves while they perform their duties? We had an officer who was shot and killed here in Warren County, NC while serving an arrest warrent. What sort of "opressive" behavior was he demonstrating as he knocked on the door just before a shot came through the door killing him? I don't have any sympathy for Strickland.
Posted by: Jack at December 13, 2006 03:20 PM (2sR7f)
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Jack, the police were using a battering ram on the door; that's some knock, eh? According to the defense, it's the very method of forcible entry which caused the noisy confusion which caused the officer to fire shots.
Also stated in one of the news reports was that it was known one of the men present with Strickland had an interest in guns, although neither man was armed at the time. If that's the qualifying characteristic for a SWAT-raid, 80 million of us are in equal danger of the same judgement of presumption of guilt.
The police take the job knowing the risks; it should not be off-loaded onto the presumed innocent at the time of arrest.
I agree with David; these SWAT-style raids need to be drastically curtailed. The concept of Peace-officer needs to be restored and any officer held to account for killing innocent citizens.
Posted by: Cindi at December 13, 2006 04:22 PM (asVsU)
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Cindi, To say one of the men there "had an interest in guns" is an understatement. Photos of him on the internet posing with his guns and a loaded gun in his car seem to imply he may present a problem come arrest time.
Also, Strickland had an earlier arrest on a felony assault charge.
It is ridiculous to imply that they were just a bunch of innocent kids playing video games.
Posted by: Jack at December 13, 2006 11:05 PM (JqRZA)
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No excuse, Jack. I travel with a loaded gun, although there are no internet pictures of me with them. That the man has guns is not a reason to presume he will shoot at law enforcement, thus a SWAT raid. I'M NOT BUYING IT.
I didn't say they were 'innocent kids playing video games'; I'm saying that until a court of law has decided they're guilty of the charge on the warrant, it is wrong to presume guilt at the time of arrest.
Knock on the gods-pounding door like you're supposed to and if ya run into trouble, then act accordingly. We have a murdered young man here, don't you get it? He had a remote in his hand, not a gun.
Posted by: Cindi at December 14, 2006 12:20 AM (asVsU)
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Newsiness
When is news not news?
How about when the subject matter is a decades old story that just happens to be the subject of a new Hollywood blockbuster produced by a sister media company?
The article on CNN is called Blood diamonds: Miners risk lives for chance at riches.
Deep into the body of the article, we see this:
Sierra Leone is the setting for the new movie "Blood Diamond." Leonardo DiCaprio plays a crooked Zimbabwean ex-mercenary who searches for a rare pink diamond. (The film was produced by Warner Bros. Pictures, which like CNN.com is owned by Time Warner.)
It's a movie that should stir controversy about just how careful the precious gem industry has been in making sure diamonds are bought and sold legally.
SFGate.com, CBS News (check the sidebars), and many other newsie stories just happen to be coming out in conjunction with Le Dicaprio's new movie.
Using the news to promote fiction.
Shocking, I know.
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Neck Deep
In a column published last night, Eric Boehlert does an excellent job of showing why David Brock's
Media Matters should be regarded as the alimentary canal of punditry; on one end it's good at regurgitation, and on the other, the finalized product is consistently something better flushed.
In Michelle Malkin fiddles while Baghdad burns, Boehlert dishonestly addresses the continuing Associated Press scandal surrounding the "Burning Six" story that emerged from the Sunni enclave of Hurriyah in Baghdad on November 24.
By the next day, even more details had emerged in the AP's story along with a description of why the alleged attacks finally ended.
Synthesize the various versions of the story, and you will have a horrific story of how Shia gunmen attacked while the Iraqi police and military stood by, without interfering, as four mosques were destroyed and as many as 18 people were killed, including six Sunni men pulled from a mosque and burned alive after being doused with kerosene. Only the arrival of American military units brought an end to the carnage.
But here's the problem... there is little to no evidence that any of these events took place.
Contrary to the AP's reporting, the Ahbab al-Mustafa, Nidaa Allah, al-Muhaimin and al-Qaqaqa mosques were never blown up. There is no evidence uncovered that a single soul, much less 18, were burned in an "inferno" at the al-Muhaimin mosque. In fact, soldiers from the 6th Iraqi Army Division found al-Muhaimin completely undamaged.
There is no evidence whatsoever that six men were pulled from a mosque under attack, doused in kerosene, set on fire, and then only shot once they quit moving.
Only the Nidaa Allah suffered minor fire damage from a Molotov cocktail, and no injuries were reported. The Iraqi Ministry of the Interior, the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Defense were apparently unable to discover any other physical evidence of any attacks in Hurriyah as the Associated Press, and only the Associated Press, claimed. Further, U.S. soldiers never intervened in Hurriyah on November 24.
The entirety of the Associated PressÂ’ reporting on these alleged events relies on the testimony of two named sources and a handful of anonymous sources. Of those two sources, Sunni Imad al-Hashimi recanted his story after being interviewed by the Defense Ministry, leaving just one named source upon which the Associated Press was hanging its credibility, Iraqi Police Captain Jamil Hussein.
As we now know, the Iraqi Interior Ministry has now gone on the record, declaring that they have no record of anyone by the name of Jamil Hussein employed as an Iraqi policeman, at any rank. They also disputed the records of more than a dozen other AP sources that claimed to be part of the Iraqi police for which they had no records.
Further research indicated that Jamil Hussein was often on hand to report Shia on Sunni violence, and that Hussein had been used as a source for the Associated Press and no other news outlet, 61 times since April 24.
Boehlert, of course, is unsurprisingly disinterested as to why the Associated Press runs a story claiming the destruction of four mosques, the deaths of 18 people (six of them by immolation), or the allegations that Shiite military and police units allowed the attacks to take place. He quite purposefully leaves out the fact that all of the AP's sources were anonymous, other than the one that recanted, and the other that was exposed as long-running fraud.
Like the AP, Eric Boehlert seems far more interested in protecting a narrative and attacking the messengers, than seeking to discover how the AP's reporting could have been so horribly compromised.
He attacks "warbloggers," explicitly (and falsely) stating that those citizen journalists interested in getting to the bottom of this and other questionable instance of reporting blame the press "squarely" for the state of the war, a preposterous claim he does not even attempt to prove.
Few, if any, highly-regarded bloggers hold that opinion. Bad pre-war planning and post-invasion implementation of the same are widely acknowledged for much of the problems on the ground in Iraq, as are undisputed facts that al Qaeda, Syria, and Iran have contributed to the violence.
What Boehlert would like to gloss over (as it suits his narrative and that of the organization he writes for) are the very real structural problems with the stringer-based systems of reporting in Iraq.
In Iraq, the overwhelming majority of foreign journalists never leave the relative safety of Baghdad's Green Zone. Most newsgathering done in Iraq is compiled by Iraqi journalists, which in and of itself is to be expected. Iraqis know their country, their communities their language and their politics far more intimately than any Western reporter is ever likely to achieve. From that perspective, it would make little sense to rely primarily on Borat-like foreign reporters to cover what is going on inside the country.
But even though Iraqi reporters are the logical best choice to cover Iraqi events, the Associated Press and other wire services must be cognizant of the fact that just like the fellow Sunnis, Shias, and Kurds in their fractious society, reporters and their sources will also have regional, sectarian and tribal biases.
Because of this, all news organizations, especially the largest news organizations such as the Associated Press and Reuters, have an obligation to their readers to provide a robust set of editorial checks and balances to verify that the reporters they use and the sources they quote are supported by factual evidence.
As we now know, at least the final stories of the almost certainly fictitious Captain Jamil Hussein have no supporting physical evidence. Even repeated trips to the Hurriyah neighborhood have been unable to extricate the Associated Press from this mess of their own making. There are no destroyed mosques. There are no bodies.
Nothing.
Characteristically dishonest in his claims, Boehlert claims that bloggers are engaging in "wide-ranging conspiracy theories and silencing skeptical voices."
The truth of the matter is precisely the opposite; we're asking for more skeptical voices, more layers of fact-checking and editorial professionalism that seemingly have disappeared once wire service reporters join what Michael Fumento and other combat journalists from all sides of the political spectrum have derided as the "Baghdad Brigade."
If the Associated Press had a working system of checks and balances to do background checks on their reporters, they might not be in the embarrassing position of having one of their Iraqi stringers in prison after he was captured in a weapons cache with a terrorist commander, coated in explosives.
If the Associated Press had a working system of checks and balances to verify their sources, they might not have been listening to a false Iraqi policeman for two years, and more than a dozen other "policemen" that the Iraqi Interior Ministry says does not work for them (NOTE: The AP still uses these same named suspect policemen as sources to this very day).
If the Associated Press had a working system of editorial fact-checking, the lack of physical evidence alone should have precluded the burning mosques/burning men claims from ever having run. Hunkered down for in the Green Zone, the isolated fortress mindset infecting the media has led to reporting where allegations, not facts, are enough reason to run a story written by men and women who have never seen the subject matter on which they report.
Pure and simple, it is "faith-based" reporting.
It is because of this kind of absentee journalism that wave after wave of combat veterans return home from Iraq and Afghanistan claiming that the media is consistently misrepresenting what is going on in Iraq. Not necessarily better or worse, but just plain wrong. It's hardly surprising. You wouldn't expect a reporter in Boise to effectively cover a bank robbery in Raleigh, so why would you expect a reporter in a Baghdad hotel to accurately reporter events in Ramadi?
The problems of reporting in Iraq are based on flawed news-gathering processes and methodologies, questionable vetting of reporters and sources, and continued poor editorial oversight. The Associated Press responds to these problems exposed by Jamilgate by promoting those involved.
Boehlert shows he is far more interested in choking down typical Media Matters talking points and excreting arrogance mixed with contempt than engaging in any honest attempt to identify and fix obvious flaws in a broken system of reporting that lead to false reporting such as that evidence in Jamilgate. Apparently, "truthiness" is close enough for his purposes.
His mentor must be proud.
Update: Michelle piles on. Apparently Boelhert got even more wrong than I realized:
He is such an idiot that he doesn't even read the link that he includes to bolster his ridiculous charge.
I am the one who called a fellow conservative blogger to task for irresponsibly reporting that anonymous Republican sources had accused a Democrat staffer in Harry Reid's office of being the source. If he had bothered to follow his own links, this clown would know that. Or maybe he did and it doesn't matter. He's got a narrative to protect.
Boehlert charges that "[W]arbloggers aren't interested in an honest, factual debate about a single instance of journalistic accountability."
Like he would know anything about honest, factual debates and journalistic accountability?
Ouch. That's gonna leave a mark.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
Eric Boehlert is proof positive that you can't give vi-gra to leftist media apologists ...it only makes them taller.
Pulling all the same, tired, trite, smug and pedantic tripe from the Ministry of Media's playbook...this rambling, disjointed, puerile and inane attack on the AUDACITY of questioning the heretofore miserable record for honesty and ethics emanating from the cesspool of leftist scribes...is an inverted Code of Silence...it's the Code of Silence...by shouting, screaming and ranting for everyone else to shut up.
Eric Boehlert is to calm reflection what Michael Moore is to sartorial splendor.
For those who have little interest in watching yet another Ministry of Media parrot work himself into a fine lather over one of the branches getting caught with their hand in the ethics cookie jar, yet again....let me sum up his tantrum.
"YOU ARE A DOODY BALL!" And while "Doody-ball Diplomacy" is now the fine art of leftist debate everywhere...it sure won't play over here...where we actually still honor things like facts, truth and evidence.
Produce Jamil, asshelmet....then we can talk.
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 12, 2006 01:36 PM (V56h2)
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CY, you have not met your quota of "silencing skeptical voices" for the week. If you don't pick up the slack they will take away your jackboots.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at December 12, 2006 02:38 PM (oC8nQ)
Posted by: Bill Faith at December 12, 2006 03:27 PM (n7SaI)
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CY doth protest too much.
Boehlert nailed you like a stuck pig and you went off into your fantasy land of "...but there was no period, so the sentence is false" nitpicking. Do you deny that all of those other murders took place concurrently? That Iraq is in utter chaos?
The reason why sane media haven't picked this up is that AP adequately sourced the story for most rational people. You notice that CENTCOM is no longer challenging the story?
And speaking of credibility, how did that Bush in a Chador story work out for you?
Posted by: Ed at December 12, 2006 03:47 PM (yfKhZ)
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Ed, I have no doubt that you think Eric Boehlert struck gold, simply because he reinforces your worldview. Following him means you don't have to think particularly hard, or be an individual, or challenge conventional wisdom over discrepancies in the evidence. If it makes you feel better, some people on the right do it as well. We call such people "Senator Lott."
It isn't "nitpicking" when the AP claims four mosques were leveled—excuse me, their exact words were "blown up," I believe—and not one was.
Not. One.
It isn't nit-picking when they publish a story when they say as many as 18 people were burned—six purposefully immolated—and provide zero physical evidence to support their contentions.
As a matter of fact, all the physical evidence, from intact mosques, to a lack of victims, refutes AP's story categorically.
You say that the AP "sourced the story enough for most rational people," without acknowledging the fact that the media can get away with the anonymous sources that drove this story and its follow-ups because over decades hard-working, diligent reporters have earned the public's trust... a trust today's journalists have been abusing. Many people now view reporters with more contempt than they do reporters, and with greater reason.
Central Command is no longer writing about his story for the simple reason that there is nothing else let to say that hasn't already been said.
All the physical evidence—each and every bit—supports Central Command's versions of events. Of the two named witnesses, one has reversed his story, and the other has been proven a fraud, and a fraud that the AP trusted for 61 stories. What else do you want them to say, other than to repeat the case they've already made?
As for my "Drugs are Bad" post, in which the misreading of Jpeg compression artifacts and a case of the sillies brought about by surprisingly good cough syrup led me to put up a half-serious post about an Iraqi woman looking suspiciously like the President in drag, it worked out quite well. I got 15,000 hits from Drudge in a few hours. When I got home, I got to giggle for two days as I watched your fellow travelers throw a complete hissy fit over it.
Why, for all the uproar, you would have though I put someone in
blackface.
Anyone who took that story as seriously should have their heads examined.
Of course, many of them already are.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 12, 2006 04:30 PM (g5Nba)
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And has AP learned their lession. Aparently not, according to CNN who reported today that "Iraqi police Lt. Bilal Ali Majid told The Associated Press that most of the victims were Shiites from poor areas of Baghdad such as Sadr City." Is Lt. Majid on the list questionable police sources? YOU BET HE IS!
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at December 12, 2006 04:53 PM (oC8nQ)
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And has AP learned their lession? Aparently not, according to CNN who reported today that "Iraqi police Lt. Bilal Ali Majid told The Associated Press that most of the victims were Shiites from poor areas of Baghdad such as Sadr City." Is Lt. Majid on the list questionable police sources? YOU BET HE IS!
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at December 12, 2006 04:53 PM (oC8nQ)
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AP adequately sourced the story for most rational people.
Where is Jamil Hussein again? I missed the AP proof that he exists.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 12, 2006 05:37 PM (RWCop)
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We seem to have moved from the ridiculous to the sublime.
Let's follow the Rube Goldberesque logic of the typical leftist lemming:
1)Story comes out that 18 people are, murdered, six of whom are burned alive by dousing them in kerosene and four mosques are bombed into oblivion.
2)The AP uses a "source" that they say they have "visited many times in his office" who is an alleged police captain...you know...with like a uniform, title and office type police officer.
3)NOBODY...and I mean NOBODY...has shown a single mosque in rubble in utterly destroyed...not even a PHOTOSHOPPED version of a mosque having been so attacked.
4)NOBODY....and I mean NOBODY...has appeared in Captain Jamil Hussein's office and asked for a clarification, follow up or amendment to his original "sourcing" of these horrific "acts". NOT A SINGLE OTHER NEWS AGENCY CAN LOCATE THE MAN.
So, let me get this straight. The four mosques that were destroyed, the 18 people who were murdered, the six kerosene doused victims AND Captain Jamil Hussein CANNOT BE FOUND, IDENTIFIED, VIEWED OR VERIFIED....and that is "adequately sourcing for most sane people"????
Where are the OTHER news agencies with potentially the most horrific act of violence and inhumanity? Where are the OTHER news agencies who can back up the existence of Jamil Hussein? Where is ANYONE who backs up this story as anything other than a complete fabrication? NOWHERE.
You see, when you are in the center of drekstorm of your own making...you attack the people who talk about the stench. That's your only recourse.
It's important to remind these paragons of false virtue, that TELLING THE TRUTH and not FABRICATING stories, not photoshopping photos, not creating Harvey the Invisible Rabbit as your sources...is important to the credibility of ALL that you present. If you are a liar, if you are a fabricator, if you have no ethics and no morals...despite all that your mindless apologists try to cover for you...YOU ARE STILL BASTARDIZING AND POLLUTING A PUBLIC TRUST.
If you can't separate out your devotion to dogma of leftist BS...then get the hell out of the business of reporting back to us the facts and evidence we need to make up our minds...because despite what you arrogant bastards believe...you aren't smarter than the rest of us and we are damn tired of you lying to us to advance your infantile leftist pap.
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 12, 2006 06:30 PM (V56h2)
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And Ed "knows" that Iraq is in utter chaos because....the AP tells him so. Which somehow proves that the AP was correct in the mosque destruction/burning Sunni stories. errrr....yeah. That's the ticket.
Posted by: iconoclast at December 12, 2006 08:24 PM (stoqW)
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The sad fact is that passive research, i.e. letting the story come to them is what passes for journalism today. It is no wonder why the MSM is falling on hard times.
Posted by: Mnemosyne at December 12, 2006 09:31 PM (e7v7H)
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The antique MSM is still in free fall without a chute. The impact on landing is going to hurt. Anyone got any money in any of these weasel organizations? If so you are stupid.
Posted by: Scrapiron at December 12, 2006 09:43 PM (0Co69)
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Ed: You libs are quick to post your snarky little comments but when refuted with facts you disappear. Why don't you grow a set and respond to CY's response to you. Or are you gutless like Ms. John Kerry?
Posted by: Edward at December 12, 2006 11:23 PM (CNalv)
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Just waiting for the next AP venture into "adequately sourced and verified" on-scene reportage. What's it gonna be, Jimmeh Carter in fright-wig doing a "dead parrot" routine, embracing David Duke in sorrow for the calumny anti-Semitic racists have suffered all these years?
Why is it that the vast majority of newsies these days seem post-mentrual, verbalescent Femyappers? The one at AP ought to buckle up her chastity belt before risking further violation.
Posted by: John Blake at December 13, 2006 12:01 AM (p6Y29)
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Im sure this is all an honest mistake
Oh- anyone catch that Boehlert character on CSPAN a few months back?
He seems real proud of himself.
Whic of course, is the problem.
Ie, its all about HIM (as opposed to, you know, the TRUTH)
Posted by: TMF at December 13, 2006 08:01 AM (+BgNZ)
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Right on the money TMF. One would have to surmise that these people cannot be a stoopid as they constantly lead us to believe and the notion of absolute "Leftist Collegiate Brainwashing" seems unreasonable. Therefore the only possibility that remains is self preservation or finding a niche, making a dollar and sticking to it. I wonder how many of these dishonest (lying) pundits on both sides press their case because they have made their beds and must now "Lie" in them. All the more reason to respect someone like Horowitz.
Posted by: Dave at December 13, 2006 08:47 AM (M4tYt)
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You guys missed the real story which Capt Hussein could tell.....the 6 were actually whisked to Germany where they were burned in the dreaded gas chambers...which were unused according to the Iran President who is always in happy-happy land...and it just may be that Capt. Hussein is actually an Iranian Capt. who relays these stories to the AP so they don't actually have to have reporters in Iraq!
Wha???
The above makes as much sense as the liberal idiotarians who know there is still one thing and one thing only that might support AP's story as credible......
SHOW US THE CAPTAIN!!!
Duke
Posted by: Duke DeLand at December 13, 2006 10:24 AM (Y5TDN)
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This suedo-reporter's only purpose in publishing his dishonest and misleading screed is all contained in the first paragraph. He simply had to chide the Republicans for their loss in the election.
When are the real wordsmiths going to go to press about how the Islamist Murderers and leftist wackos all love that the Democrat retreatists are now in power?
Michael
Posted by: Michael O'Malley at December 13, 2006 11:35 AM (bLNK2)
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News organizations like AP exist because of dupes like Ed who will religiously believe anything and everything they post without question.
Posted by: docdave at December 13, 2006 11:43 AM (SBpOG)
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You and the other warbloggers, of course, bring no bias to the table whatsoever, right?
Posted by: The Liberal Avenger at December 13, 2006 02:04 PM (brWuL)
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Avenger, no one has any doubts about my personal views or the policies I support. My biases are crystal clear.
The Associated Press, however, is another matter entirely.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 13, 2006 02:09 PM (g5Nba)
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...just a little molotov cocktail damage - that's all...
Posted by: The Liberal Avenger at December 13, 2006 02:13 PM (brWuL)
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Well, it was only a matter of time before the "I know you are, but what am I" defense from the leftist apologist steaming pile.
This will be followed soon by the "Mommy, he started it" defense, followed by the "I'm rubber and you're glue..." defense.
Evidence that the Peter Pandemic has spread to plague proportions on the left.
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 13, 2006 02:27 PM (V56h2)
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"Why is it that the vast majority of newsies these days seem post-mentrual, verbalescent Femyappers? The one at AP ought to buckle up her chastity belt before risking further violation."
How politically incorrect of you, JB. It's almost like you are saying that Carroll has a vagenda she wants to advance. I see a PC lynching in your future with my magic 8 ball.
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 13, 2006 02:32 PM (V56h2)
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From minor fire damage to major melee in one unsubstantiated report from a witness unable to be found on planet Earth.
What's this have to do with inherent media bias? Oh, that's right, it doesn't. It has to do with VERIFIABLE FACTS and the distinct lack of them.
Thanks, Avenger, for the fine example of misdirection.
Posted by: deesine at December 13, 2006 02:55 PM (iLGvx)
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It is just so deliciously ironic that ultra-conservatives like Confederate Yankee and Michelle Malkin are declaring themselves to be the holy arbiters of truth while the rest of the world - especially the Islamofascists and the MSM - are parties with an inherent bias so strong they can't be trusted.
I wonder if Confederate Yankee - or any of the rest of you commenters - has the courage to declare Iraq to be a waste or a failure or a disaster. Of course you don't. In your eyes Iraq is only a disaster insofar as the MSM and liberal bloggers conspire to hide the "good news" from the rest of the free world.
Posted by: The Liberal Avenger at December 13, 2006 03:44 PM (brWuL)
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Well, Liberal Avenger, Iraq may very well be a disaster but it's hard to make that determination with the quality of information coming out of the AP and Reuters.
There's a big difference between minor fire damage to one mosque and the complete destruction of four mosques.
I listen to the traffic news to decide what route to take to work. If every accident, from a fender-bender to an overturned tanker truck, were reported as a major pileup with freeway closures and life-flight helicopters it would be rather difficult to make any kind of informed decision based on that.
Posted by: Magoo at December 13, 2006 04:29 PM (1Aw4W)
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You think I'm ultra-conservative? Perhaps in relation to how far left you are, but that only goes to reinforce just how far off center your views are in comparison. Other than my views on fighting Islamofascism, my views are almost dead-center, at least according to those little political quizes that people post on their blogs from time to time (Quizzes aside, I'm
slightly right of center).
This also probably comes as a shock to you and every other liberal, but as the campaign is on-going, it is premature to declare it a waste, failure, or a disaster. While I suspect quitting and failure is just part of your nature, I also suspect you rely purely on the mainstream media and liberal blogs for your information about the war.
Conservative bloggers, while we read what the press has to say, also get their information from milbloggers, servicemen who have been in combat zones in Iraq, and embeds. We're simply better informed, becuase we seek information everywhere we can, and are willing to leave our echo-chamber to do so.
It is a fact, and one that the media acknowledges, that they do not typically carry the day-to-day positive developments coming out of Iraq or Afghanistan. Good news, from insurgent cells being captured, or wells being dug, or schools being built, tends to be boring. Bad news, such as a suicide bombing, is boring. "If it bleeds it leads" is a truism.
The situation on the ground in Iraq is fluid, but far from over. We simply don't know who is winning right now.
For people like myself, that means we try harder to create teh conditions for victory. For liberals such as yourself, that means quit.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 13, 2006 04:30 PM (g5Nba)
29
Well, Avenger, sorry to throw chili sauce into your sumptuous curry-fest, but many of us don't trust the MSM because of cases just like this: where the rudiments of journalism have been left behind.
Keep your bias, fine, but give us the facts!
Oh, and the Iraq war is a disaster on many fronts, not only in the inept way some news organizations cover it. You seem unable to take off your bipolar partisan glasses for one moment and at least consider that the AP is not coming clean on this story.
Why are you so willing to believe a story where the only verifiable facts speak to the opposite and the main source can not/will not be produced? And here you are, like a giddy prospector, talking to us of irony!
Posted by: deesine at December 13, 2006 04:45 PM (iLGvx)
30
"It is just so deliciously ironic that ultra-conservatives like Confederate Yankee and Michelle Malkin are declaring themselves to be the holy arbiters of truth while the rest of the world - especially the Islamofascists and the MSM - are parties with an inherent bias so strong they can't be trusted."
I'm not sure I follow the point attempted here. So let me attempt to reassemble the argument. Then again...all the kings horses and all the kings men...but, alas, I'll try.
"It is just so deliciously ironic that ultra-conservatives like Confederate Yankee and Michelle Malkin are declaring themselves to be the holy arbiters of truth ..."
What exactly is an "ultra-conservative". I haven't seemed to have met a leftist who doesn't think that EVERYONE who fails to march in lockstep with them...isn't a "warmongering, homophobic, racist, slack-jawed, mouthbreathing, inbred Jed"...so, what...exactly....constitutes principled dissent from the leftist lemming playbook?
I can tell you right now...I fall on EVERY quiz on the subject as being a centrist...I believe I am in the MAJORITY on most of my opinions in this country (fiscally and homeland security not liberal, socially left of center)...yet, if I don't sing from the leftist hymnal, I'm lumped in with the "vast right wing" as a co-conspirator.
So, please....enlighten us...what makes CY or Michele Malkin ULTRA conservatives???
And by commenting on the DISMAL AND REPEATED failures of the leftist media to even remotely attempt to hide their lack of objectivity, to intentionally falsify reports, to forge documents, photoshop scenes, stage phony scenarios, create fake sources out of whole cloth....Michele and Bob are making themselves "holy arbiters of truth".
What a steaming pile of parrot scat. If a non-leftist blogger points out malfeasance of the leftist press...they are automatically out of bounds...because to do so is merely an attempt to elevate themselves to a level of deity reigning over the truth? This argument is absurd.
What SHOULD they do? According to leftists the only "holy arbiter" of leftist misdeeds, apparently, is the Holy See No Evil...and we await the puffs of white smoke to see whether that is Dan Rather or Howard Kurtz.
If the leftist media had an ounce of integrity, they would have policed these issues themselves instead of running interference for them.
And while you arrogant bastards keep feeding us lies, distortions, misrepresentations and misdirections... that we "need", because after all...we are too stupid to extract the "conclusions" you want us to reach, without creating "caricatures of the truth"...done for us, for our benefit,...us, the great unwashed who would otherwise be unable to connect your leftist dots...you bridle at the notion that some people actually would prefer the truth, so that we can make up our own minds about what we think on the great issues of the day. YOU may want a nanny state, with a nanny press and a nanny government...the MAJORITY OF US...DO NOT.
And frankly, those of us who still care about the truth, about honor, about an objective reporting of actual facts...ought to get down on our knees every day and thank the heavens that Michele, Bob, Charles, Gleen, VDH...are doing not only the work that our press OUGHT to be doing...but, also are UNDOING the lies...which is twice as difficult...especially with the Code of Silence in the leftist Ministry of Media.
The notion that leftists OWN our information and therefore can do what they want with it...while they predigest it and regurgitate it to their own little helpless, mindless little baby birds...is the largest, greatest and most grave danger to the future of our country. You DON'T own the information stream, and you are NOT casting pearls before swine, you arrogant bastards.
"I wonder if Confederate Yankee - or any of the rest of you commenters - has the courage to declare Iraq to be a waste or a failure or a disaster."
Which part? The part where people are no longer being put down woodchippers or the part where the rape rooms don't have his predatory sons defiling innocent girls?
The part where Al Qaeda is on the run and being disrupted or the part where those people were able to engage in a free democratic vote?
A waste? To whom? A failure? Based on what? Six months is a pretty short time frame to declare a democracy in its infancy a "failure". Some things are working, some are not yet there. Why are you leftists in such a rush to declare a failure...of a work in progress? Does success frighten you? Are you unwilling to work at it to give it a chance?
Disaster? Allowing Saddam to build a nuclear arsenal and to pass off weapons to terrorists to kill Americans and Israelis in the hundreds of thousands...THAT would be a disaster. I'm sorry, I simply don't miss Saddam as much as apparently the leftists do.
"Of course you don't. In your eyes Iraq is only a disaster insofar as the MSM and liberal bloggers conspire to hide the "good news" from the rest of the free world."
Well, thanks for the admission. The Ministry of Media and liberal bloggers are, politely speaking, essentially... oversaturated with excrement. We don't miss Saddam. Iraq is better off as a nation without him....long term...and for many, short term.
Al Qaeda is still on the run. Disrupting the terrorists is a good thing, not a bad thing. And if we are forced to confront the fact that Iran's leadership wants to deny the Holocaust, drive Israel into the sea, kill Americans and wage nuclear war...I would rather that we were staring at them from their front doorstep, than sitting in the Ivy Towers of the NYTimes and calling them "essential partners in our future".
Here's the sum of it....you can't lie, misrepresent, dissemble, dummy up photos and stage phony scenes, create fake sources and expect honest people to simply sit back and swallow your pablum for the leftist mind. Try another tactic, this one is exposing itself...and we can't help but giggle at your shortcomings.
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 13, 2006 05:15 PM (V56h2)
31
LA
The reason no one here is willing to concede Iraq is a "failure" and a "waste" is because that is simply not consistent with factual reality.
Maybe if you are George Soros, Helen Thomas, Keith Olbermann or Kofi Annan and have an agenda or narrative to spin, sure, you could call it a failure.
The rest of us here realize it is far, far, too early to deem the Iraq war a "disaster" or a "failure".
Saddam Hussein was removed from power. Tens of thousands of Iraqi and Al Qaeda terrorists, including the grandpapa of them all: Zarqawi (forget, did we?) have been killed.
Iraq has had 3 hugely successful elections that were relatively violence free.
The fact that there are still car bombings and assasinations is only a sign of "failure" in the minds of the octagenerians who watch Morely Safer and think he is a "news man". In the real world, these things are tragedies for the victims, but ultimately mere set backs for the military and propaganda tools for the enemy.
Which works very well in the arab world, and in the American left.
Posted by: TMF at December 13, 2006 05:50 PM (+BgNZ)
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I suppose that we were winning in Vietnam, too...
10 years, 58000 Americans and 2 million Vietnamese were just a prelude to the inevitable American victory that was foiled by the likes of Walter Cronkite, Jane Fonda and John Kerry.
If only we had unleashed the true fury of the American military machine in Vietnam the world might very well have been a very different place today!
Posted by: The Liberal Avenger at December 13, 2006 07:37 PM (brWuL)
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I thought that Zarqawi's death was supposed to be the end of the insurgency.
Actually, wasn't the January 2005 election supposed to be the end of the insurgency?
Before that it was the writing of the constitution, I believe.
Hmmm - the destruction of Fallujah in November of 2004 was going to "break the back of the insurgency," wasn't it?
I know that Saddam's capture, trial and conviction were supposed to put an end to in-country violence.
Uday and Qusay were bad people. I can understand the declaration that their deaths would mark the end of the insurgency.
May 2003, bulging crotch and all, Bush declared Mission Accomplished.
I can see how the AP conspiracy to spin things negatively about Iraq has really undermined the American peoples' perception of the war. It's clear that the Bush Administration has been on top of things all along and has been effectively communicating with the public regarding the war.
I couldn't possibly imagine six people being soaked in kerosene and set on fire in Baghdad... In Paris, maybe - but not Baghdad.
Thank you, oh mighty warbloggers, for keeping your skeptical eyes on the situation in Iraq and for holding the Bush Administration accountable for the things that they say and do.
You've done such a remarkable job, a full 21% of Americans today approve of George Bush's handling of the war.
Keep up the good work!
Posted by: The Liberal Avenger at December 13, 2006 08:26 PM (brWuL)
34
Walter Cronkite...a now proven liar about the TET offensive...which he intentionally lied about to the American people as an American defeat...obviously, this doesn't bother people who really don't give a damn about the truth.
Jane Fonda, who called our boys "baby killers" and inspired people to spit on our own troops and throw feces at them when they returned from doing their duty for our country...obviously this doesn't bother people who have no honor.
John Kerry, who lied about his military involvements, lied about our troops and slandered them, met secretly with the enemy to plan our own defeat, and calls our troops stupid....obviously this doesn't bother people who have no integrity.
The Cambodians who died in the bloodbath after we left, obviously this doesn't bother people who have principles of convenience.
They supported and whitewashed Castro...a brutal dictator who suppressed every form of freedom. They supported Mao who suppressed every form of freedom, they supported every Marxist/Leninist thug...while crapping on their own country....while people were placed in gulags, "reeducation camps" and they whitewashed every atrocity.
But they still point a finger at America in Viet Nam. It's high time we hose off this leftist slime. We've been slimed for 40 years by this ignorant, duplicitous hippies.
Viet Nam was about Soviet expansionism, do these lying bastards still want to deny that was a fact? Romanticizing Stalinism is like waxing poetic about acid reflux. No matter how hard you try...it's just the wrong object about the wrong subject.
Push Socialism/Communism all you want. Glorify it. Romanticize it. Spray it with Glade and put a frilly bow on it.
Here's the end story. Socialism/Communism suck. The people who have been pushing it for 40 years and sucking up to every enemy of state during that time...have been whitewashing their atrocities...and lying about us. They call themselves Americans. They are in name only. In the black community, they would be called Uncle Toms. People who shuck and jive and bow and scrape and attempt to curry favor with those who hate you...because you want to be liked by them. ("Like me, Fidel...I think you are wonderful, I'm not like these Ugly Gringos").
Overwhelmingly white, middle class, ...these White Uncle Toms are now aging and fighting the ravages of becoming old and unhip. So they worry about eliminating wrinkles and become like Arianna Huffinpuff, the Botox Bohemians...faces stretched like bandits with nylon face stockings, it's all about image, not substance.
The Collagen Counterculture is at once vain and preoccupied with status, wanting desperately to cling onto a relevance that was based on a fraud to begin with. More shallow (and twice as pretentious) than a tumbler of Chambord...these Botox Bohemians continue to clang their one note song against the walls of our home and hearth.
"America sucks", "Down with America"..."look at how bad she is, was, will be". Their movies are predictable and uninspired, their homilies are trite and vacuous, they have nothing left...and remain a pathetic, doddering, drooling broad farce of what they once pretended to be.
I can only hope that what replaces them is newer, fresher, more mature, less self-absorbed and less likely to engage in principles of conveniences and open sedition against the only country who tolerates their vileness because to silence it would somehow be worse.
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 13, 2006 08:48 PM (V56h2)
35
I suppose that we were winning in Vietnam, too...
Hey, Liberal Avenger, tell us what you know about the Tet Offensive.
Militarily, was it a win or a loss for the North Vietnamese?
How was it reported by the press?
Now, surely you'd want steps taken to see that such a mischaracterization of America's military situation never happens again, right?
I said, "right?" !
Posted by: Lewis at December 13, 2006 08:50 PM (CvrIy)
36
Well we lost 500,000 men in WWII...only 55,000 in Vietnam and a mere 2900 in Iraq-
I guess that makes WWII the biggest "disaster" and "Failure" of them all by the measure of LA and his silly, ahistorical pro-terrorist pals over at the Nation, DU and ANSWER
Posted by: TMF at December 13, 2006 08:59 PM (cGtRE)
37
I couldn't possibly imagine six people being soaked in kerosene and set on fire in Baghdad... In Paris, maybe - but not Baghdad.
Let me see if I understand your reasoning here:
Who cares if the incident in question is fabricated? -- the AP is still accurately reporting the "big picture" - that Iraq is a complete mess and represents a total failure on the part of the Bush administration.
Looks like "fake but accurate" news is still the gold standard for liberals!
Posted by: Lewis at December 13, 2006 09:04 PM (CvrIy)
38
Conservatives: Denying reality since 1965
Posted by: The Liberal Avenger at December 14, 2006 12:36 AM (brWuL)
39
Trolls: Dirtying the net since 1972
Posted by: deesine at December 14, 2006 12:49 AM (iLGvx)
Posted by: Doug Ross at December 16, 2006 11:00 AM (z1M8l)
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December 11, 2006
Fading Like Britney's Tan Lines
Fourth?
Where's the love? ;-)
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I've voted for you three times, but to no avail. It'll be no shame to lose out to Flopping Aces though.
p.s. Anybody reading this please vote for the EU Referendum in the UK Blogs category, thanks.
Posted by: Glynn - Liverpool at December 12, 2006 07:12 PM (lvJwM)
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Perception or Deception?
According to AP Executive Editor Kathleen Carroll, Iraqi Police Captain Jamil Hussein is a well-known source that they have had a relationship with for two years.
According to Curt at Flopping Aces, Hussein was cited in Associated Press reports by name 61 times between April 24th and November 26th of this year. No other news organization other than the Associated Press seems to have evern been in contact with Jamil Hussein. It is not known if Hussein may have been cited as an anonymous source, if at all, in addition to the 61 times he was cited as an official source by AP.
During the first months (April and May) he was used as a source, Hussein was cited 24 times in stories by no fewer than 7 different AP reporters (Thomas Wagner, Lee Keath, Robert H. Reid, Sinan Salaheddin, Qassim Abdul-Zahra, Tarek El-Tablawy, and Patrick Quinn).
In June and July, Hussein was cited as a source 19 times by at least 9 AP reporters (Sinan Salaheddin, Ryan Lenz, Steven R. Hurst, Bassem Mroue, Qais al-Bashir, Sameer N. Yacoub, Qassim Abdul-Zahra, Bushra Juhi, and Kim Gamel), eight of which had not written using Hussein in the months before (only Sinan Salaheddin carried over from the previous months).
In August and September Hussein was uncharacteristically quiet, being used as a source just nine times in total, and five of those stories coming on a single day (September 20). Sinan Salaheddin, Robert H. Reid, Bushra Juhi, and Qais al-Bashir used Hussein again, Rawya Rageh used him for the first time, and David Rising used him as a source for four stories on the first and only day he cited Hussein.
In October Hussein was only cited twice, in a Sinan Salaheddin story and in another by Sameer N. Yacoub.
Police Captain Jamil Hussein was then silent for 28 days until November 24, when he was cited five times describing the now familiar series of claims that Shia militamen immolated six Sunni men. Those claims have been disputed by the Iraqi Police, Interior Ministry, Iraqi Army, and even the responding unit of the Baghdad Fire Department which put out the one minor mosque fire that actually existed of the four that the Associated Press claimed were attacked.
According to the document compiled by Flopping Aces and cited above, AP provided no bylines for four of these reports, but the fifth was sourced to Qais al-Bashir. Hussein was cited twice more, on November 25 (including once in a story by Steven R. Hurst).
Hussein was cited for a final time on November 26 by the man who first used his name on April 24, Thomas Wagner.
In just eight months, Iraqi Police Captain Jamil Hussein was cited as a source in stories by 17 named AP reporters, and also appeared in several stories where no byline was given. To the best we can determine, he has never been cited by another news organization, at any time.
Since his authenticity was thrown in doubt, the fabled Iraqi Police Captain has completely disappeared from AP reporting, except for the AP's denials that he is the fraud that the Iraqi interior ministry says he is. The captain, if he is real, would have likely come forward by now to clear his name. He has not.
At the current level of controversy, it might be prudent for these 17 Associated Press reporters, AP international editor John Daniszewski, and AP Executive Editor Kathleen Carroll to each go on the record and establish the details, dates and locations of their relationship with alleged Iraqi Police Captain Jamil Hussein that they have so vigorously defended.
Daniszewski and Carroll should also explain why, when there is so much suspicion that the Associated Press has been duped by a series of false witnesses tied to a flawed stringer-based news gathering methodology, that the AP promoted two of the reporters involved in this controversy.
Kim Gamel, who issued stories using Hussein as a source on June 1, June 5 and twice on June 6, has now been promoted to the newly-created position of Baghdad News Editor.
Patrick Quinn, who wrote a story using Hussein as a source on May 30, has been promoted to the newly-created position of Assistant Chief of Middle East News.
In most any line of work, discovering that two actors were promoted after it was revealed they were in some way involved in a scandal, would create a scandal of its own. Many people might assume that their superiors might be trying to buy their silence. That suspicion would only grow if those people were promoted to positions that didn't previously exist.
At the very best, the Associated Press is guilty of creating the perception that their reporters' silence in the Jamil Hussein affair may have been bought. While there is no evidence that such a thing did occur, I shudder to think what it may mean to the future of the Associated Press if it is more than just a perception.
Update: fixed a glitch above, where I meant "stringer-based" reporting, not "string-based," which is reputedly how AP handles telecommunications. Sorry for the confusion.
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Don't know if anyone ever goes over to Atlas Shrugs to see what she has on each day, (she is drop dead gorgeous, if you haven't seen her in the superman outfit), but she has a post detailing a speech written by Jeanne Kirkpatrick, concerning the uncontrolled power (and abuse) of the media. It's a must read, in my opinion.
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 11, 2006 03:42 PM (V56h2)
Posted by: Bill Faith at December 11, 2006 04:41 PM (n7SaI)
3
FYI, google Jamil Hussein and al Jazeera and you will find two article from March with Jamil. He appears to have been picked up by al Jazeera then passed on to AP. Was this fellow not good enough for AJ's reporting standards so AP picked him up? Hah!
Posted by: Ray Robison at December 11, 2006 05:59 PM (GqKnY)
4
For what it's worth, notice that the name "Kim Gamel" and "Jamil Hussein" are similar. Gamel is another pronunciation for Jamil (also called Jamal, or Gamal). If it's a phony name, the last name "Hussein" might have been taken from Saddam Hussein. This is speculation, but I can imagine these two character, Patrick Quin and Kim Gamel, getting together at the bar one evening and making up Police Captain Jamil Hussein. H.L. Mencken was a great journalist, but he was so convinced about the shoddy quality of journalism at his time that he once planted a fake story about the invention of the bathtub, just to prove his point. He thought it was bound to be spotted, but nobody in the news business figured it out. Nothing has changed.
Posted by: Barry at December 11, 2006 07:06 PM (DPofG)
5
They will never admit that they were duped. And since it isn't being pressed by LSM, they know it will die a quick death. Unfortunate that most people are so shallow that they take everything they hear from MSM as truth.
Posted by: Specter at December 12, 2006 07:44 AM (ybfXM)
6
The ISG report cites a discrepancy between violence levels as reported by the US military and as reported by other sources as evidence that the the official US figures are too low (which is certainly possible, of course.)
What I want to know is: Other than the 6 burned alive that we are pretty sure Jamil put over on a willingly duped AP, how many more of those reports that the military didn't confirm were ALSO "fake but accurate," and how much influence that had on the ISG's conclusions. Can anyone say "disinformation?"
Posted by: Peter at December 14, 2006 01:00 PM (TkPvt)
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Torture? Who Cares?
As much as the fringe left seem to be able to manufacture spittle-flecked outrage over the interrogation of suspected al Qaeda terrorists, they seem curiously quiet over the treatment of a captured homicide bomber that said the following of his incarceration:
"It is a closed-off world designed to isolate inmates from social and environmental stimuli, with the ultimate purpose of causing mental illness and chronic physical conditions such as diabetes, heart disease and arthritis."
Where is the ACLU? Amnesty International? Dick Durbin?
You would think that sockpuppet (Who answers "How would a Patriot Act?" by moving to Brazil) and his ideological fellow travelers would be all over this story, wouldn't you? And yet they are curiously silent.
It must have something to do with the fact that the man who said this is Eric Robert Rudolph.
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1
Deafening isn't it? Oh wait I hear a cricket.
(``·.¸(``·.¸ ¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
Its C-N-C
Monday have a
God Blessed Week.¸¸.·´¨`»
(¸.·`´(¸.·`´ ``·.¸)``·.¸)
Posted by: patty at December 11, 2006 10:56 AM (ByBdH)
2
Um, maybe because Eric Rudolph was given a fair trial where the evidence was weighed against him and a judgement (which he richly deserved) was rendered based on that evidence, unlike the residents of Gitmo and other nameless black sites?
Posted by: Arbotreeist at December 11, 2006 09:56 PM (N8M1W)
3
So if I get this straight, you can do whatever you desire to someone as long as they have gone through the paper beuracracy of a trial. Either you are a lawyer or have never been involved in court and the ultimate sham that is the judical system.
He should change religion and adhere to Islam and its hate. Then he would have the liberals respect.
Posted by: David Caskey at December 12, 2006 10:02 AM (xxoPt)
4
Rudolph had a trial and right to appeal pursuant to all U.S. legal rights and procedures. If you, Confederate Yankee, feel his treatment in prison is unlawful under the "cruel and unusual punishment" clause in the Constitution, then take legal action pursuant to this claim on his behalf. You have raised the issue, you seem to believe it is an actionable issued under law, so take action in concert with your beliefs. I happen to agree with you. Solitary confinement over long periods of time is definitely harmful to one's mental state. Read Nelson Mandela's autobiography for more information on this. Please take action on this. Rudolph should be in a general population cell, rather than in solitary.
Cheers.
Douglas H. Watts
Augusta, Maine
Posted by: Douglas Watts at December 14, 2006 03:46 AM (8dg5C)
5
RE: Douglas Watts
Arbotreeist
I thought torture was torture no matter Where When Why by Whom. Why aren't the ACLU, Amnesty International, Dick Durbin, and the International Red Cross having riotous demonstrations demanding fair treatment of Mr. Rudolph? Where is the UN when you need it?
Aren't your contentions pure discrimination? You have no, or very little, sympathy for Mr. Rudolph who by the way is a LEGAL US citizen. Yet for enemies of the state and/or ILLEGAL Immigrants you want us to bend over backwards to ensure they experience absolutely no inconvenience.
Posted by: JohnL at December 14, 2006 10:54 AM (a8Zeo)
6
This is just dishonest since the ACLU and other civil liberties organizations are on the record opposing the sorts of incarceration practices described above, regardless of who the prisoner is.
Posted by: A Hermit at December 14, 2006 12:54 PM (Ze7RI)
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December 10, 2006
Proof?
I just a received an email that claims to show photographic proof of the Jamil Hussein/Burning Six story of the Associated Press. Make of it what you will.
Sir,
I must take issue with your attempt to discredit Mr. Jamil Hussein, nonexistent though he may be, regarding his story about six Sunni worshippers who were burned alive outside a bombed mosque. I submit for your review the attached photograph, which clearly shows a Shiite insurgent wielding a gas pump from which spouts fuel that feeds the flames engulfing his Sunni victim. The other five victims, already aflame, are visible in foreground and background amid the rubble of the mosque.
My objection to your criticism of Mr. Hussein, however, arises not from your skepticism over his claim that the men in question were actually Sunnis, or were actually burned, or were actually alive once, or were dead later, or that the attackers who did or did not do the burning were or were not Shiites, or that they did or did not burn the Sunnis who were or were not burned; indeed, I recognize all of these to be points over which reasonable people can in good faith disagree.
(click to enlarge)
Rather, I find it alarming that you fail to fail to reveal the truth that underlies this incident, if it happened: clearly, Mr. Hussein was coerced by U.S. and Israeli agents into suppressing his knowledge that the supposed Shiite incendiary insurgent in the photograph is actually a Mossad operative. In light of this fact, Mr. Hussein's pretended existence is obviously a cover designed to disguise his non-identity and avoid reprisals from the Vast Right Wing Conspirators who blew up the World Trade Center in the mistaken belief that it was actually the United Nations building.
By revealing that Mr. Hussein is not truly Jamil Hussein, but is another non-existent person of a different name, you have "outed" him, making him vulnerable to attack by the same American Jewish interests that used Valerie Plame to attack Karl Rove in order to punish Bush for his too-tepid support for the establishment of a Hebrew-only language policy in the Jew-occupied territories stretching from Brooklyn to Ethiopia. As you know, the Hasidim of Flatbush* oppose the use of Hebrew, instead preferring to use Yiddish in order to hasten the arrival of the Messiah. As this extremist party sees the outbreak of Total War between Jews and Muslims as a precursor to the divine visitation, they surely will not take kindly to Mr. Hussein's deceptions on behalf of liberal Israeli accommodationists. The accommodationists - including the aggressor in the photograph - pose as apostate Jews (though many are actually Christian Phalangist moles), and are known to be inflaming sectarian violence in Iraq. They hope that if things get nasty enough, the U.N. will step in and resolve the conflict before Iran gains dominance. They calculate that an ascendant, nuclear capable Iran would need to surrender unconditionally to Israel in order to restrain itself from launching a pre-emptive nuclear strike on Jerusalem and Tel Aviv that would, in fact, hasten the arrival of the Messiah.
In sum, you, sir, have made it impossible for the person who Mr. Hussein is not to do his work with impunity. By revealing that Mr. Hussein does not exist, you have placed him in mortal danger at the hands of deathmongering moderate Jewish Israelis and Americans whose counterespionage protocols call for the death or subjugation of all non-existent persons.
I hope you're happy.
Cordially,
Jamal Hussein (no relation)
Sandy, Utah, USA
P.S., Should you find yourself needing legal representation over this matter, I kindly refer you to my esteemed associate Ramzi al-Clarkstein Baker'sman McCarterGates. He's not Jewish, but he's still a decent lawyer.
*Note: "FlatBUSH" - mere coincidence?
I'm not certain if Mr. Hussein's claims are accurate, but his explanation sounds every bit as credible as what the Associated Press has offered up as evidence so far.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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A Reuters photo no doubt?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 10, 2006 08:05 PM (RWCop)
2
Totally valid. Indisputable. Offensive to even question it.
F the bloggers.
Posted by: Good Lt at December 10, 2006 10:41 PM (D0TMh)
3
Oh my! This is just awful! To think that people would actually call for the deaths of non-existent persons is just horrendous! I have nothing more to say! I feel sick and nauseous. I'm taking a tranquilizer and going to bed. Oh my!
Posted by: Feel Sick at December 10, 2006 11:38 PM (aTZaE)
4
Hey! Where's Green Helmet Guy?
Posted by: SJBill at December 11, 2006 12:17 AM (CgykJ)
5
Yes ...
where is Green Helmet Guy? Is it possible that he's THE DEVIL (cue music) ...oh wait, that's not right. Sorry. CUT! My but the years do so just fly by these days. Hmm. Where was I ...oh yes. Let's try this again. So. Where is Green Helmet Guy? Is it possible that he's JAMAL WHOSEEN? (cue music)
Posted by: davis,br at December 11, 2006 02:29 AM (ySO5Q)
Posted by: fidens at December 11, 2006 03:03 AM (bHDH/)
7
So, Green Helmet was actually a Mossad agent provocateur? Who knew?
Posted by: Clioman at December 11, 2006 08:04 AM (udpRV)
8
"Needs Smoke"
ADNAN, ADD MORE SMOKE! And don't screw it up like last time.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at December 11, 2006 08:47 AM (oC8nQ)
9
Hey, isn't that Baghdad Bob in the background?
Posted by: bobdog here at December 11, 2006 09:35 AM (d93tV)
Posted by: sbw at December 11, 2006 09:55 AM (dJ1+y)
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Mr. (no relation)
By all that is good and great you have managed to extract kerosene from a gas pump, praise Jabba the Hut!
Being an inquisitive Western reporter of all important facts and evidence, do you have any pictures of Britny Spears? And do you have any idea where the rest of the letters in her name went?
Before I leave, thank you oh, honest man...for gracing me with these pictures, which I know come at such great risk to you personally, may you be blessed for all eternity. I was wondering if I may ask one more small favor.
Can I get in on some of that 72 virgin thing, if I continue to print your pictures and accounts of the going-on in Iraq? I mean, I went to a Big Ten school in the 70's and majored in Liberal Arts...and there was kind of a shortage, you know? So, if there's any way for me to sort of barter my services here...can you get me a coupon or something from Pimp Mo?
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 11, 2006 10:41 AM (5RM9g)
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Moslems are dumb enough to take that post seriously. Bad idea.
Posted by: Phillep at December 11, 2006 11:14 AM (FSzsR)
13
Well, I'm convinced. Yes, I am. Noooo doubt about it.
Posted by: RebeccaH at December 11, 2006 12:17 PM (YadGF)
14
It was an adnan sockpuppet....who knew?
Posted by: Specter at December 12, 2006 07:48 AM (ybfXM)
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Weblog Awards Continue
Despite some minor server-related glitches, the
Weblog Awards are online and waiting you to vote in 45 categories. I'm quite flattered to
be in second third right now, especially considering the blogs I'm up against.
Make sure you vote for your favorites every day; voting ends on December 15.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I voted, I voted! Stop nagging already! :-)
Posted by: K T Cat at December 11, 2006 09:18 AM (KDU/K)
2
Been doing my part for your cause since the polls opened. Will put up an additional bleg on your behalf later this morning.
Posted by: The Random Yak at December 11, 2006 01:14 PM (4ZNnC)
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December 09, 2006
Just the Facts, Ma'am
Kathleen Carroll, the Executive Editor and Senior Vice President of the Associated Press, just can't seem to do the required legwork necessary to resolve the questions surrounding six immolations and four mosque burnings alleged in news reports by anonymous reporters working for her organization. She does, however, try her best to deflect criticism in her
latest response to the emerging scandal this afternoon.
She begins:
In recent days, a handful of people have stridently criticized The Associated Press' coverage of a terrible attack on Iraqi citizens last month in Baghdad. Some of those critics question whether the incident happened at all and declare that they don't believe our reporting.
Indeed, a small number of them have whipped themselves into an indignant lather over the AP's reporting.
What concerns Carroll is that her "handful" includes Jules Crittenden of the Boston Herald, Mark Tapscott of the Washington Examiner, Tom Zeller of the New York Times, and Robert Batemen in the New York Post, and this handful is steadily getting larger by the day thanks to a diligent army of citizen-journalists.
Their assertions that the AP has been duped or worse are unfounded and just plain wrong.
No organization has done more to try to shed light on what happened Nov. 24 in the Hurriyah neighborhood of Baghdad than The Associated Press.
Well, thanks for clearing that up. I can sleep comfortably now that you've confirmed what is in your self-interest to reinforce.
We have sent journalists to the neighborhood three different times to talk with people there about what happened. And those residents have repeatedly told us, in some detail, that Shiite militiamen dragged six Sunni worshippers from a mosque, drenched them with kerosene and burned them alive.
And yet in all of those trips to this intimate Sunni enclave, there are a few things the largest news organization in the world hasn't been able to discover... for instance, how the militiamen "burned and blew up" four mosques in the initial report, only to see that number dwindle to one mosque partially burned, without a retraction being issued. For that matter, which mosque were these six men dragged out of? Basic reporting, Editor Carroll. Eighth-grade school-paper who-what-when-where-why.
While we're on the subject of basic journalism, it would seem simple to find names for the six victims in such a tight-knit community. So why, after AP journalists went to this neighborhood three different times to investigate a story under a cloud of suspicion, has the Associated Press been unwilling or unable to provide that basic information?
No one else has said they have actually gone to the neighborhood. Particularly not the individuals who have criticized our journalism with such barbed certitude.
This isn't exactly the truth, Editor Carroll, and if you read your own reporting, you are well aware of that fact. An Iraqi fire company was called into the neighborhood to extinguish the one (not four) minor mosque fire. There does not seem to be any reports from the fire company concerning something as noticeable as six humans combusting in the street.
In addition, we know from your own reporting that legitimate Iraqi police and interior ministry officers dispatched to Hurriyah were unable to verify any of the claims made by AP reporters. They were able to interview the one named source, Imad al-Hasimi, at which time al-Hasimi told a different story than the one reported by the Associated Press. From what little you've given us, it seems he has retracted his story entirely.
I'm sorry that those of us thousands of miles away from the situation are having to criticize AP reporting with such "barbed certitude," but when your senior reporters five miles away don't seek answers to obvious and pressing questions, those of us further away must.
The AP has been transparent and fair since the first day of our reporting on this issue.
We have not ignored the questions about our work raised by the U.S. military and later, by the Iraqi Interior Ministry. Indeed, we published those questions while also sending AP journalists back out to the scene to dig further into what happened and why others might be questioning the initial accounts.
The AP mission was to get at the facts, wherever those facts took us.
Transparent? The AP will not tell us who their reporters are (citing safety concerns, of course). We have no names for alleged witnesses for precisely the same reason. We don't know the name of the mosque from which these men were abducted. We don't seem to have the names of the dead, and contrary to initial AP reports, we don't seem to have any named employees of the Kazamiyah Hospital who will claim to have seen these bodies. Of the two named sources in the initial story, one now disavows the story originally attributed to him, and the other, primary witness seems all but certain of being a long-run, deeply embedded fraud.
And what about the things that Carroll would rather not address?
Such an example is the fact that the Sunni Association of Muslim Scholars, which would rarely miss a chance to cite an example of Shia brutality, has been curiously silent about these alleged immolations. Al Jazeera, the preeminent Arab news outlet, also did not report on this atrocity, despite how easily they could sell this story to their primary media market. For that matter, neither Reuters, nor UPI, nor any other news organization has been able to confirm the Associated Press story. AP, it seems, has an exclusive that no one else can or will substantiate, even two weeks later. If AP has the facts, they are very stingy sharing them.
What we found were more witnesses who described the attack in particular detail as well as describing the fear that runs through the neighborhood. We ran a lengthy story on those additional findings, as well as the questions, on Nov. 28.
Some of AP's critics question the existence of police Capt. Jamil Hussein, who was one (but not the only) source to tell us about the burning.
These critics cite a U.S. military officer and an Iraqi official who first said Hussein is not an authorized spokesman and later said he is not on their list of Interior Ministry employees. It's worth noting that such lists are relatively recent creations of the fledgling Iraqi government.
By contrast, Hussein is well known to AP. We first met him, in uniform, in a police station, some two years ago. We have talked with him a number of times since then and he has been a reliable source of accurate information on a variety of events in Baghdad.
No one – not a single person – raised questions about Hussein’s accuracy or his very existence in all that time. Those questions were raised only after he was quoted by name describing a terrible attack in a neighborhood that U.S. and Iraqi forces have struggled to make safe.
And now, we get to what concerns Editor Carroll most of all.
Jamil Hussein isn't just a one-off source, but an on-going, continual source for the Associated Press over the past two years, being used as a named source no fewer than 61 times in the past year. If Captain Hussein is a legitimate Iraqi police officer as Carroll insists, then inviting him to meet with his own superiors and representatives of U.S Central Command in front of Associated Press cameras would not only be uneventful for Captain Hussein, who could clear charges that he is an insurgent operative, but it would vindicate the Associated Press completely. The Associated Press can end this controversy by merely producing Captain Jamil Hussein.
And yet, we know that if the Associated Press could produce Captain Hussein to vindicate it's reporters, it would have done so by now. The fact that the Executive Editor of the Associated Press has been reduced to spending the bulk of her response attacking the messengers tells you just how dire the situation of the Associated Press in Iraq truly is.
Jamil Hussein is one false source that immediately calls into question all 61 AP stories in which he was a source. Jamil Hussein is just one of at least 14 sources that the Associated Press has claimed as Iraqi policemen, that have provided "proof" in perhaps dozens to hundreds of stories, that the Iraqi police simply have no record of.
The Associated Press is standing behind their story, perhaps because at this point, acknowledging how deeply they've been compromised is far too difficult to contemplate.
We don't need anymore bluster, accusations, or denials, Kathleen Carroll.
Simple facts will suffice.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I'm writing my congressman asking for an investigation into this. These bastards need to be put under oath.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 09, 2006 01:06 AM (RWCop)
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I'm shocked, SHOCKED, I tell you, that the MSM would resort to making up stuff to bring down George W.
BTW, when are the Rather Awards going to be given out this year ? Has AP been nominated for a Rathie yet ?
Posted by: Actual at December 09, 2006 10:38 AM (niNgY)
3
An Iraqi fire company was called into the neighborhood to extinguish the one (not four) minor mosque fire. There does not seem to be any reports from the fire company concerning something as noticeable as six humans combusting in the street.
Also a patrol from the
6th Iraqi Army Division, who are the folks who called in the Iraqi fire company. They also failed to notice multiple burning bodies or multiple burning mosques or multiple burning homes, all of which were alleged by the AP.
Posted by: Tully at December 09, 2006 01:23 PM (kEQ90)
4
No one – not a single person – raised questions about Hussein’s accuracy or his very existence in all that time.
Translation: "We got away with it for quite a while, so that proves he's legit."
Heh.
Posted by: Tully at December 09, 2006 01:25 PM (kEQ90)
5
Lefties love the
proof by repeated assertion argument.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 09, 2006 02:06 PM (RWCop)
6
I can see why the AP would think they'd need to hype up the sectarian violence angle, because there just isn't that much of it going on already. If it weren't for the AP and other Western news outlets, the outside world would see that Iraq is a peaceful, harmonious society well on its way to being a Jeffersonian democracy. I mean, it's not like there are 50 or 60 tortured, bullet-riddled bodies showing up every day in Baghdad, car bombs killing 40 people at a clip or anything. They needed to invent these 6 murders to just kick it up a notch and really stick it to Bush but good.
Posted by: Arbotreeist at December 09, 2006 04:04 PM (N8M1W)
7
Now THAT'S funny! It's just retro enough to be a good vaudeville routine.
1st Leftist: The media isn't lying about situation in Iraq.
2nd leftist: That's right!...er, but how do we know?
1st: "Because the situation is so bad, they don't NEED to lie"
2nd: "Exactly! And we know that because..."
1st: "The media tells us so!"
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 09, 2006 05:48 PM (5RM9g)
8
I think it's high time we begin to color code the levels of the "Ministry of Media" alert. That way, those of us who are not into compliantly swallowing this force-fed mental kitty litter, have a way to easily and conveniently recognize the level crap that is contained in any single "story" that the World Populists, Timeshare Americans, COW's and anarchists put out through the various branches of the Ministry of Media.
I'm all for creating very inventive colors and assigning them based on wit, style, best capturing of the true nature of the BS contained in the story, etc. Mapes Magenta or Rather Red Alert, would be one way to go. Maher Mauve. NYTimes Teal, WaPost Purple. (Hollywood Hues are welcome from the movie/fantasy branch of the Ministry of Media as well). Reuters Rose. BBSepia.
I'm open for suggestions.
I suppose we should have a ranking based upon some prism and color scale. Clear, White, Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Cyan, Blue, Violet, Brown, Black...or something. The greater the fib factor, the further up the alert scale on the color coding.
This is a work in progress, so it may take some time...but, if done properly, it could make life with leftist a little less irritating.
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 09, 2006 06:09 PM (5RM9g)
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I think the top alert color should be Liberal Dark Brown. The color of Cow manure. The more you look into it, the worse it smells. Just like typical Liberal biased media stories.
Posted by: JM at December 09, 2006 06:34 PM (k1RPK)
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I love the liberals view of the Military. We support the troops but they're all liars. Think maybe they all failed to study and get an education so the all ended up in Iraq? I think after the military wins this war the should come home and be allowed to shoot fifty dimmi's (each)of their choice. Kind of a reward for a job well done even with the dimmi traitors selling them out on a daily or hourly basis.
Posted by: Scrapiron at December 09, 2006 08:06 PM (YadGF)
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For some of them, shooting is too good. I want to make a couple of distinctions, though. I think leftists and their Ministry of Media have been wildly successful at framing the issues. Our collective society uses their words, for almost all things related to those issues most in debate today.
Here are some things that I don't think adequately or properly describe the situation:
"Mainstream Media": I don't like to use this term, because I don't believe that the "old media" represents mainstream America or Americans. I think it represents a much narrower, smaller, more elitist and further left viewpoint than is warranted by any stretch of the imagination, when it comes to being "representative" of mainstream American thought.
I believe that the "old media" has an agenda and no longer even makes a passing effort at being objective. They push leftist ideas, support leftist goals and try to sway public opinion much further left, in sometimes subtle and increasingly more overt ways.
To call them the MSM, simply reinforces a false notion that they represent the "average" or "typical" American and I believe this is patently false. In fact, I believe they represent less than 15% of the population in terms of positions on important issues of the day. Moreover, they have become increasingly aggressive in their tactics by deriding, denigrating and dividing those who disagree with them. They have reached a point where, I believe, they had found themselves to be less and less effective (due in no small part to bloggers such as CY, Instapundit, LGF, Michelle Malkin and others, talk radio and Fox News)...and they "upped the ante". They now are willing to use "any means necessary" to get their leftist goals achieved. False documents, phony sources, hiding the truth, distortions, fake pictures, carrying the propaganda water for the enemy, giving away our military tactics and positions, ...the whole bag of horrors.
There is nothing, in my opinion, that is "mainstream" about their Code of Silence when one of their members is caught beshitting our information stream with leftist lies, distortions, propaganda, and pollute the "news" with things that simply aren't true in order to sway public opinion leftward.
They have shown not only a complete unwillingness to police themselves, but quite the contrary, a brazen refusal to even confront the issues honestly. Instead, they form a wall of silence and shield the perpetrators in a conspiracy after the fact, virtually every time.
Bernie Goldberg in his two books suggested (as have others) that there is no conspiracy. That either profit is the motive or "echo chamber ignorance" is the reason. I disagree on both counts. Profit is no motive when people are abandoning you in droves and you get MORE aggressively leftist. Echo chamber ignorance, where you believe you are "mainstream" because everyone around you is a mindless yes man has SOME merit, but it does not explain or even consider why you need to lie, distort, create fake photos, fake documents, fake sources and then when you are caught, you deny and everyone of your cronies shields you from scrutiny. Nope...that is not an echo chamber, that's a conspiracy before the fact. You are not simply deluded into believing the fraud, you are an active participant in creating the fraud.
The old media has, by any objective standard...been weighed and measured...and found wanting. They have become the Ministry of Media ...a propaganda tool for leftist dogma. And they are certainly anything but mainstream. We serve their purposes by using their name to describe themselves. And I, for one, simply refuse to play their rigged game by their rules.
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 10, 2006 11:03 AM (5RM9g)
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The second "framed issue" that I completely disagree with, is calling leftists: "liberal" or "progressive".
I believe that there ARE people in this country who are either "liberal" or "progressive", but bundling all leftists into those carefully framed terms fails to capture some very important and distinct differences.
If you look at where people stand on the "political/social issue spectrum" you will find distinct differences between a Joe Lieberman and a Michael Moore. To describe them with one word is to treat Moore with greater dignity than he deserves and to tarnish Lieberman with a stain he doesn't deserve.
I think the term "progressive" is merely a continuation on the phony theme that if you are left of center then you are "open-minded, soft-hearted, forward thinking, not old fashioned, and a thinking man's person". I can't think of a term that LESS describes the leftists at Kos Kidz and most of the rest of the blogosphere nutroots and barking moonbats.
If anything, they have proven themselves to be closed-minded, dogmatic, stuck in the 60's, mindless lemmings and parrots all marching in lockstep and reciting with Gregorian Chant droning voices in unison from the same playbook and from the same out of tune World Populist hymnal. Is there anyone here who can't immediately predict what position those people will take when a new issue of importance arises on the political/social spectrum? There is nothing unique, independent, thoughtful, or insightful about anything they say these days.
It's warmed over, 40 year old anti-establishment Socialism/populism from the 60's. It steadfastly refuses to take into account today's new issues and new potential solutions to them. We have enemies today that are not nation based, who have a religious zeal to convert and kill us as infidels...and their response is to build a campfire, make Smores and sing Peter, Paul and Mary songs with them. This is to being a "progressive" what Rosie O'Donnell is to being a runway model.
Yet, when we mindlessly accept and repeat the "framed phrases" they use to describe themselves we empower them in creating a "truth" out of a lie, by repeating it often enough.
Michael Moore isn't a liberal. He's an anarchist. He isn't soft-hearted, forward thinking, or even anti-war. He romanticizes the enemy and calls them minutemen. He does nothing but crap on America and Americans calling them stupid and ignorant.
George Soros and the MoveOn crowd are Socialist/World Populists. The kneejerk response from the leftists, is to deny their leftism when you shine a light on it. They call it "red baiting" or "McCarthyite tactics". I find this fascinating. Why deny you are a Socialist (or a Trotskyite or Leninist or Maoist etc), if that's what you believe? I'm not afraid of Socialism, I just think its repeated history of utter failure makes it rather unappetizing as a form of governance.
The Ministry of Media, the propaganda arm of the Socialist/World Populist movement in this country (including their entertainment branch in Hollywood along with the "news" branches in print and on the airwaves) have pretty much thrown off the shroud and thrown down the gauntlet. Why not let's call it exactly what it is and have a showdown. Call the question. The Socialist/World Populist crowd want to disenbowel our present form of governance and replace it with a Socialist/World Populist nanny state.
This isn't "liberalism"...at least not that of John F. Kennedy (although it IS of his neer do well,drunken sod, manslaughtering brother), or FDR, or Joe Lieberman.
This is the self-absorbed, "me generation", hippies of the 60's forming their own government and overthrowing this one. Not by military coup d etat, but by having infiltrated and placed a stranglehold on our information stream. College campuses, you can't get a job as a professor if you aren't a member of the Socialist/World Populist club. You can't be a news anchor at NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, BBC, AP, Reuters... you can't be an editor of the NYTimes, Newsweek, LATimes, you can't be a top Hollywood actor or director...EVERYWHERE the Ministry of Media exists, in all their branches...the information stream bleats out the same message.
We were becoming the "boiled frogs". They didn't throw us in a pot of boiling water, they simply put us in nice, comfortable water and having been increasing the temperature one degree at a time, so we wouldn't notice them turning up the heat.
But then, something they didn't count on happened. The blogosphere, talk radio and Fox News put a turd in their punchbowl. This made them more desperate. You can see this desperation in the fury with which they react to Fox News, now vehemently they deny the solid and often spectacular "news" work of the blogosphere. And Air America as a response to talk radio....Al Franken? Nuff said.
They realized that if they were going to make their move, it had to be now. Before the response to their bastardizing the information stream REALLY became weakened. So, they upped the ante. They now brazenly lie. They doctor and dummy up documents. They photoshop photos. Stage "news" stories. Create phony "sources". The table stakes are now as high as they will ever be. Truth be damned, they are now into "by any means necessary" mode.
And every time you use one of THEIR terms to describe them, or one of their "issues"...you empower them.
They aren't liberal and they aren't progressive. They are leftists and they are in full battle gear for the future of your country. They want to own hearts and minds. If you use their words to describe them and key issues, you take a lie and by repeating it...you make it a new truth.
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 10, 2006 11:50 AM (5RM9g)
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When I was a young child in the late 50's/early 60's they were just known as commies ;->
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 10, 2006 01:24 PM (RWCop)
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The AP mission was to get at the facts, wherever those facts took us.
Somewhe-r-r-r-re, over the rainbow...
Posted by: Cover Me, Porkins at December 10, 2006 02:17 PM (7HxuT)
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Actually, the Association of Muslim Scholars claimed 18 immolations at first and named the mosque. See, for instance, http://www.suntimes.com/news/world/149069,CST-NWS-iraq25.article .
Its leader, Al-Dhari, is in hiding in Jordan from charges of inciting violence in Iraq and happened to be in Egypt at a conference when the story broke. The organization seems to work pretty closely with insurgents and surely spreads the insurgent propaganda, too. The prestige press may rely on them as "influential," but I think they have even less credibility than, unfortunately, the AP when it comes to this disgraceful lie.
Posted by: CatLady at December 10, 2006 02:23 PM (HvOa6)
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Why won't the AP just hire that stylish photoshop artist whose "smokey Beirut" photos so rapturously illustrated the AP's previous fake-but-accurate story? Surely it can't be all that difficult to find someone to drop a ball of flame over a stock photo of a sunni mosque. If Editor Carroll's cover-up chops are rusty perhaps she had better relinquish her MSM card to a more Ratheresque figure within the vast AP bureaucracy.
Posted by: Johann at December 10, 2006 02:39 PM (S7FHT)
Posted by: Bill Faith at December 10, 2006 03:21 PM (n7SaI)
Posted by: TallDave at December 10, 2006 03:34 PM (odS+4)
Posted by: TallDave at December 10, 2006 03:35 PM (odS+4)
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Ah, and I see Abotreeist has given us the "fake but accurate" defense of the story.
Posted by: TallDave at December 10, 2006 03:36 PM (odS+4)
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AP's propaganda machine has been exposed... and it seems probable that they are now forced to scrub reports that could further impugn their shattered credibility: We should see a palpable Jamil Hussein effect as the AP concentrates on reporting only that violence and "chaos" that it can document.
Already, the routine dispatch in recent days seems to have dropped the obligatory call to the Baghdad morgue:
Google "AP: Iraq morgue Baghdad"
Posted by: happyfeet at December 10, 2006 03:53 PM (k+SV1)
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Jamal Hussein is more and more suonding like Captain Tuttle on that old episode of M*A*S*H.
The interesting thing is, if he really does exist and is as trusted and reliable a source as Carroll and others at the AP claim, then we shouldn't have to wait long to see more stories use him as sourcing, at which time, I presume, the AP staffer can snap a quick photo with a small digital camera to prove to all the doubters that he's for real.
On the other hand, if he's a fake, like Hawkeye and Trapper's Tuttle was, then it wouldn't be surprising to find out he's met the same sort of end -- blown up by a bomb or shot and killed by an insurgant before he had a chance to tell his story to the world. Dead men tell no tales, even if they're imaginary dead men.
Posted by: John at December 10, 2006 04:27 PM (jzZOz)
23
Geeez, of course aliens have beamed up three of the mosques for repair, they being helpful little green men. And Jamil Hussien is realy Jamilia Hussiana leader of the Orion 5th fleet. Have I cleared up things for you?
Oh yeah, AP is really Alien Press.
/sarc
By the way this is just as truthful as the current crap from the AP.
Posted by: David at December 10, 2006 04:32 PM (3Iz4D)
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To call the AP a laughingstock at this point is to overestimate their credibility.
p.s,
manual trackback
Posted by: Doug Ross at December 10, 2006 04:49 PM (z1M8l)
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Gee, the guy with the Bush malapropism for a screen name has an opinion on Iraq.
Posted by: Jim Treacher at December 10, 2006 07:38 PM (3ZNma)
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Wouldn't companies that purchace AP products be able to sue for fraud, or something?
Not that I am suggesting a class action suit against AP mind you, not at all, not at all.
Honest.
Posted by: Paul at December 10, 2006 11:14 PM (I9l3I)
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Paul
That reminds me of a story about the devil failing to make good on a contract with heaven.
St. Peter says to the devil, "If you don't honor your contract, I'm going to have to sue".
And the devil replies: "Yeah, right. Where are YOU going to find a lawyer?"
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 11, 2006 12:25 PM (V56h2)
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December 08, 2006
Derrick Shareef, Trash Can Grenadier
What. A. Moron.
The Smoking Gun has the affidavit. Ace got it right when he described Shareef's plan as "more aspirational than operational."
Even if the no-so-bright Shareef had managed to obtain a quartet of fragmentation grenades as he intended, he seems to forget that the average mall trash can (at least many I've seen) are made of pretty stern stuff. I'm sure they vary, but many I've seen are made of concrete or steel outer can bodies, with strong, lightweight plastic or aluminum can liners that hold the actual trash.
As your typical frag only weighs about a pound and the kind of cans described would tend to both constrain fragments and force the explosive blast towards the path of least resistance (straight up, away from people), it seems only one guy would be in severe mortal danger in such an attack.
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Last but not least, 9mm handguns? 9mm? Definitely not bright but better for his intended victims.
Posted by: Cindi at December 10, 2006 03:20 PM (asVsU)
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I'm an Egytpian-Amercian comedian that was raised here and I'm trying to show people that we're not all bad. This story frustrates me because the media is portraying this guy as some Muslim extremist when he is a converted black Muslim. They're just trying to get people to hate us more. On top of everything else his last name is the same as my first so now I'll be associated with this idiot!!
Posted by: Sherif at December 14, 2006 01:25 PM (pLTLS)
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The AP Goes Truthy. Will the Left Stay Silent?
Looking back from the future, we may one day determine that a macabre but
seemingly straightforward story of Iraqi sectarian violence was the beginning of the end of credibility for the world's largest news organization.
Six burned alive in Iraq
The Associated Press
BAGHDAD, IRAQ -Revenge-seeking militiamen seized six Sunnis as they left Friday prayers and burned them alive with kerosene in a savage new twist to the brutality shaking the Iraqi capital a day after suspected Sunni insurgents killed 215 people in Baghdad's main Shiite district.
Iraqi soldiers at a nearby army post failed to intervene in Friday's assault by suspected members of the Shiite Mahdi Army militia or subsequent attacks that killed at least 19 other Sunnis, including women and children, in the same neighborhood, the volatile Hurriyah district in northwest Baghdad, said police Capt. Jamil Hussein.
Most of the thousands of dead bodies that have been found dumped across Baghdad and other cities in central Iraq in recent months have been of victims who were tortured and then shot to death, according to police. The suspected militia killers often have used electric drills on their captives' bodies before killing them. The bodies are frequently decapitated.
But burning victims alive introduced a new method of brutality that was likely to be reciprocated by the other sect as the Shiites and Sunnis continue killing one another in unprecedented numbers. The gruesome attack, which came despite a curfew in Baghdad, capped a day in which at least 87 people were killed or found dead in sectarian violence across Iraq.
In Hurriyah, the rampaging militiamen also burned and blew up four mosques and torched several homes in the district, Hussein said.
Residents of the troubled district claim the Mahdi Army has begun kidnapping and holding Sunni hostages to use in ritual slaughter at the funerals of Shiite victims of Baghdad's raging sectarian war.
Such claims cannot be verified but speak to the deep fear that grips Baghdad, where retaliation has become a part of daily life.
President Jalal Talabani emerged from lengthy meetings with other Iraqi leaders late Friday and said the defense minister, Abdul-Qader al-Obaidi, indicated that the Hurriyah neighborhood had been quiet throughout the day.
But Imad al-Hasimi, a Sunni elder in Hurriyah, confirmed Hussein's account of the immolations. He told Al-Arabiya television he saw people who were drenched in kerosene and then set afire, burning to death before his eyes.
Two workers at Kazamiyah Hospital also confirmed that bodies from the clashes and immolation had been taken to the morgue at their facility.
They refused to be identified by name, saying they feared retribution.
And the Association of Muslim Scholars, the most influential Sunni organization in Iraq, said even more victims were burned to death in attacks on the four mosques. It claimed a total of 18 people had died in an inferno at the al-Muhaimin mosque.
This story first began emerging late on November 24, with the version of the story printed above being published on November 25.
Thanks to some investigative started by Curt of Flopping Aces into the many apparent discrepancies in the story, we now know for a fact that significant portions of this story are categorically false, and that other details are highly suspect.
We know that four mosques were not burned nor blown up as the AP story alleges. We know that only one mosque was burned, and the extent of that damage was relatively minor. We know that Imad al-Hasimi, the Sunni leader cited in the original story, has recanted his earlier statements. We also know there is no record of burned bodies being taken the Kazamiyah Hospital, or anywhere else, for that matter. They've simply never been produced.
more...
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Most of the left can't afford for the truth to come out. That would mean all of their anti-American rants about the war in Iraq were based on lies, and will be an admission that they are respondible for 75% of the deaths of American soldier through the aid and comfort they have provided to the enemy, and the propaganda they have spread, and basically they told wholesale lies to the American public solely to get elected.
Expecting a leftie to tell the truth is on par with expecting Saddam to tell the truth. When you're responsible for millions of deaths you try to hide it. I also think the lefties and Saddam have something else in common, they will 'talk the truth' when the real noose is tightened around their neck and someone who hates them has their hands on the trip lever. The only question I have for them is, blindfold or no blindfold?
Posted by: Scrapiron at December 08, 2006 02:27 PM (0Co69)
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such ethical people will fight to be given the facts, not spin.
SITUATIONAL. ETHICS.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 08, 2006 02:28 PM (RWCop)
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I am betting that the left's response will be ABF, Anyone But Fox. They will say that any lies from AP, Reuters or CNN will pale in comparison to the lies of Fox News. The irony is that Fox also picks up on the AP news feed.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at December 08, 2006 02:42 PM (oC8nQ)
4
CY
It is hard to see the raging edges of the perfect storm, when you are in the eye of it.
Democrats are meeting with European Socialists, the Ministry of Media is giving away our positions and tactics to the enemy, they are overtly utilizing propaganda pieces where our soldiers are attacked by snipers and they are complicit in putting out fake photographs, utilizing fake sources and presenting America as the enemy.
It can no longer seriously be argued that the World Populists (COW's) are "American" in anything other than current residence.
The Timeshare Americans have investments in property (personal and realty), but are otherwise utterly dis-invested in being American.
These are people who are romatically linked to Socialism (some Euro-style, some more anarchy inspired)and whatever can bring down the free market meritocracy in existence today, is fine with them.
They are no longer satisfied with merely rooting silently for the enemies of state, they are actively participating in their successes and in the demolition of today's America.
It all falls into place rather well. The bedouin bedfellow is just fine with them, as long as they can use his means to exact their ends.
The Ministry of Media has lost all semblance of even masking or disguising their all out assault on America (and now, it seems...Israel)
They have become so open and notorious in tearing at the fabric of the free market meritocracy, that there are no longer any rules they believe apply to them. There are no consequences to openly and nakedly spitting on the rules...that they now believe that they are no rules. It's the anomy of the press.
And they have gone beyond "circling the wagons", they have adopted the Code of Silence of those who know they are guilty and simply will not accept being governed. The Ministry of Media is now its own government, its own nation state.
Freedom of the Press is now not just a rallying cry, its jingoistic sloganeering for the Media Nation. They hide behind its broad principles for increasingly narrower goals.
To anyone who believes in free market meritocracy, who is not interested in becoming a World Populist, COW or Socialist...the media is now...and has been for some time now...your enemy. They do not care if you live or die, simply they want you to convert.
The overlay between what they want and how they want to achieve it, is nearly perfect between them and Islamofascists. And they are more than happy to provide their bedouin bedfellows with all the cover they need, as long as the "story" comes out with the intended and desired result.
Weaken Current America, so that they can build Timeshare America to their liking. Lie? Fabricate? Cheat? Steal? No matter.
The morals are now that of a medieval bazaar, where lying to each other is expected and anticipated. It's part of their culture. Using each other, just fine. Principles of convenience...so what's your point?
The Ministry of Media is NOT "being used"...they are partners in this dance of the mating swans. You are in the eye of the storm...and they don't want you to see the raging edges.
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 08, 2006 03:19 PM (V56h2)
Posted by: Bill Faith at December 08, 2006 04:47 PM (n7SaI)
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Scrapiron:
Give me specific examples of how Progressives in the United States led to the death of even one soldier in Iraq, let alone 75% of all their deaths. "Aid and comfort to the enemy" a vague catchall attack phrase. Give me some names, dates and explanations of precisely how Lefties killed these guys.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at December 08, 2006 08:34 PM (5816Y)
7
What it boils down to for me is that people don't want to know the true facts. They are willing to listen to anything that supports their feelings on any given matter.
And the fact that we have a media that is willing to sell America short in essence lie, cheat and steal to support their beliefs.
Posted by: CL at December 08, 2006 09:34 PM (18Tpx)
8
Give me specific examples of how Progressives in the United States led to the death of even one soldier in Iraq
Several Gitmo detainees we were forced to release were subsequently recaptured doing terrorist shit in Iraq and Afghanistan.
You must feel a real sense of pride over this.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 08, 2006 10:19 PM (RWCop)
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PA:
"Doing terrorist shit" does not mean that anyone died. Contributing to the wrong charity is now classified as "doing terrorist shit." I'm guessing that there are lots of terrorism-related activities that don't actually lead to deaths.
I'm not saying that terrorists don't kill; I'm only asking for explication of how Lefties "are respondible [sic] for 75% of the deaths of American soldier [sic] through the aid and comfort they have provided to the enemy."
Posted by: Doc Washboard at December 08, 2006 11:40 PM (8NzJ4)
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does not mean that anyone died.
Indeed. But it say much more about where YOUR headspace is at.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 09, 2006 03:31 AM (RWCop)
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You've a fine question there, Yankee. It deserves some response. Briefly.
Yes, if the AP are using questionable sources then that's reprehensible and should be condemned. I have no problem with that. But let's get some perspective here. AP may well be the biggest but it is hardly the only culprit. Can we also heap scorn on any news service or outlet still using Amin Taheri's material or associating with Taheri after the infamous "Iranian yellow stars" fiasco? That includes the whole Benador stable of writers (Krauthammer, Ledeen and all).
Can we do likewise with Ken Timmerman after his egregious lie that Jane's had reported that Iran had already bought nukes? They had done no such thing. That means every blogger with one of those "democracy in Iran" buttons.
And can we also condemn
anyone who used questionable sources to claim that Iraq had WMD? Those sources said they were in a position to know - but it turned out they simply weren't. That hasn't stopped a whole host of media outlets continuing to use them. (Sada and the NY Post, anyone?) The same holds true for claims by the likes of the terrorist MeK, ex-Saddam henchmen, which get turned into "anonymous intelligence officials" leaks to the media about Iran's nuclear program.
The simple truth is that those of the Right, just like those of the Left you castigate, ignore exposures of lies and propoganda when it suits their "narrative" to do so. Arguably, it happens more often on the Right.
And oh, yes, I did post condemning Frisch at the time.
Regards, Cernig @ Newshog
Posted by: Cernig at December 09, 2006 11:01 AM (GGymn)
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I would not hold my breath on the liberal bloggers caring. I will try to find it again, so I can show you, but I DID see a comment on one of the blogs from a liberal who said and I quote " I don't care if we are being lied to if it gets us out of Iraq quicker" Unquote.
THAT is a point I have made often, liberals do not seem to care about being lied to if the lies match their views... it is a big difference between conservatives and liberals, conservatives do care and even if it matches our views, if it is a lie, we will call it one.. libs won't unless it disagrees with their views.
Posted by: spree at December 09, 2006 02:41 PM (oKE6z)
13
"I'm only asking for an explanation of how lefties are responsible..."
By encouraging our enemies to believe that they can wear down our will to fight.
Posted by: pst314 at December 09, 2006 04:06 PM (lCxSZ)
14
By encouraging our enemies to believe that they can wear down our will to fight.
You get em',
Green Lantern
Grow up.
Posted by: Ed Marshall at December 10, 2006 06:08 PM (bHWWG)
Posted by: Ed Marshall at December 10, 2006 06:10 PM (bHWWG)
Posted by: Jim Treacher at December 10, 2006 07:56 PM (3ZNma)
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CY:
Just a note of inquiry as to why I've been blocked from posting. If you feel like it, you can zap me an email instead of answering here.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at December 11, 2006 11:17 AM (/Wery)
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No you haven't, and you aren't the first that has asked me that question. There seems to be a spam attack on mu.nu servers, and whoever is sending that might come from the same band of IP addresses as what you share.
Hopefully it will abate soon, as I've got a ton of folks wondering why they were banned when they in fact weren't.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 11, 2006 11:46 AM (g5Nba)
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December 07, 2006
Steyn Rips AP Over Bias
On the first segment of O'Reilly. As always, Allah's
got the video.
A taste:
"...I believe that the majority of American newpapers, which are full of Associated Press content, on the central issue of our time, they're either dupes, at best, or semi-treasonous and colluding with the enemy and demoralizing America on the home front, including having agents of the enemy on their payroll. This is a disgraceful organization."
He goes on to mention Bilal Hussein (by deed, not name) the Pulitzer-winning AP photographer arrested with an al Qaeda commander, in a weapons cache, coated in explosive residue.
The Associated Press, of course, is quite angry that Hussein is being detained. They seem far less concerned that he may be tied to terrorism and the murder of Iraqi civilians, or that he could be feeding the AP propaganda instead of legitimate news.
Dupes, or semi-treasonous? You make the call.
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*chirp*
*chirp* *chirp*
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 08, 2006 02:20 AM (RWCop)
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The problem here is that the war is a disaster. I doubt very much you would find many in the ranks of the AP who are on the terrorists' side. They lie for sensationalism, not to help the terrorists win. You are shooting the messenger.
"Sen. Carl M. Levin (D-Mich.) said he plans to hold a series of hearings on Iraq soon after becoming chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee next month when Democrats take control of Congress, and he said he is prepared to use subpoenas to get relevant documents from the Pentagon."
But the GOP's all on the up and up right? I'm sure you don't have anything to worry about WRT their integrity.
Posted by: Sammy at December 08, 2006 11:29 AM (zmzqK)
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Huh? So you will accept lying for sensationalism from the media as opposed to lying to support violent extremists, which is wrong? So I guess its just me who is getting hung up on the whole lying part. Whether by accident or design, their lies are having an adverse effect on the conflict.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at December 08, 2006 01:20 PM (oC8nQ)
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They lie for sensationalism
That's certainly a good reason to swallow lies...not!
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 08, 2006 02:23 PM (RWCop)
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I wonder if Steyn pointed out that among AP's best customers is Fox News itself. Look around foxnews.com sometime. Practically every story is sourced from AP wholly or in part. And this is the "conservative offering" in the media. God help us.
Posted by: SDN at December 09, 2006 07:35 AM (pPLpb)
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Weblog Awards Voting Now Open
10 days, 45 categories, 450 of your favorite blogs. Go forth and vote.
(Especially here. I'm getting smoked.)
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You have my vote, CY! Keep up the great work!
Posted by: lady redhawk at December 08, 2006 08:46 PM (jx05q)
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Sure, why not? Your post on Frank Stein quitting the Fleming Center was hilarious.
Posted by: Meryl Yourish at December 09, 2006 08:52 PM (QUGHq)
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Researcher Quits Over the Dumbest Book Ever Written About the Bush Administration
Protesting Frank J. Fleming's controversial new book on the President—with the provocative title, "
The Chronicles of Dubya Volume 1: The Defeat of Saddam" —Dr. Frank Stein resigned this week from the Fleming Center. Stein had co-authored a previous book on the Middle East with Fleming, had been affiliated with the Center for 3 years, and in many ways was Fleming's "brain" on Dubya for years.
Stein writes in a letter explaining his resignation that Fleming's new book is "replete with factual errors, copied materials not cited, superficialities, glaring omissions, and simply invented segments. Aside from the one-sided nature of the book, meant to provoke, there are recollections cited from meetings where I was the third person in the room, and my notes of those meetings show little similarity to points claimed in the book. In due course, I shall detail these points and reflect on their origins." *
When contacted to respond, Fleming's office stated he was attempting to arrange a meeting between former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and former President Jimmy Carter, and that he was presently unavailable for comment.
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Posted by: spacemonkey at December 07, 2006 04:09 PM (DN55C)
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...Fleming's office stated he was attempting to arrange a meeting between former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and former President Jimmy Carter, and that he was presently unavailable for comment.Think Fleming's remains, phone pressed to his ear, waiting on hold?
Posted by: Eg at December 07, 2006 04:34 PM (eo55L)
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Peanut boy is certainly high on my list of victims for the Rumsfeld Strangler....
Posted by: Master Shake at December 07, 2006 04:36 PM (tcMQZ)
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Hey, don't knock the book. There are millions of brain damaged left wingers standing in line to buy it with they're welfare money. Howling Howie and Hanoi John will pay extra for a signed copy. Doesn't matter who signs it, the brain damaged can't read anyway.
Posted by: Scrapiron at December 07, 2006 07:11 PM (YadGF)
5
Sounds like Fleming went to the Ann Coulter school of writing.
Posted by: Ahenobarbus at December 07, 2006 08:53 PM (jSBbA)
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Edited for Recreancy
Update: An opinion on the Baker Commissions findings from Sgt. T.F. Boggs, in Mosul, Iraq:
After watching the Iraq Survey Group press conference today I am a firm believer that all politicians are idiots. Okay well not all of them but they all have a problem understanding reality. If any politician is reading this now feel free to email me and weÂ’ll go out for coffee and IÂ’ll further explain. But I digress.
The Iraq Survey Group’s findings or rather, recommendations are a joke and could have only come from a group of old people who have been stuck in Washington for too long. The brainpower of the ISG has come up with a new direction for our country and that includes negotiating with countries whose people chant “Death to America” and whose leaders deny the Holocaust and call for Israel to be wiped from the face of the earth. Baker and Hamilton want us to get terrorists supporting countries involved in fighting terrorism!
...What the group desperately needed was at least one their members to have been in the military and had recent experience in Iraq. The problem with having an entire panel with no one under the age of 67 is that none of them could possibly know what the situation is actually like on the ground in Iraq. Now I concede that it is possible to have a good understanding of things as they stand in Iraq but unless you interact with the people of Iraq and spend a year or years of your life on ground you cannot possibly have a complete picture of the situation.
We cannot appease our enemies and we cannot continue to cut and run when the going gets tough. As it stands in the world right now our enemies view America as a country full of queasy people who are inclined to cut and run when things take a turn for the worse. Just as the Tet Offensive was the victory that led to our failure in Vietnam our victories in Iraq now are leading to our failure in the Middle East. How many more times must we fight to fail? I feel like all of my efforts (30 months of deployment time) and the efforts of all my brothers in arms are all for naught. I thought old people were supposed to be more patient than a 24 year old but apparently I have more patience for our victory to unfold in Iraq than 99.9 percent of Americans.
Sgt. Boggs understands that there are only two ways to deal with terrorists: you either kill them, or you appease them.
Jules Crittenden worries that short-sighted Americans, bored with this war (that is rightfully our responsibility to win), will pass down a much more dangerous world to future generations if we refuse to complete our mission now:
My son, 10 years old, has grown up in a world of war more intense than I grew up in. He was five and watching TV when he saw the Twin Towers on fire. His uncle was a soldier, helping to keep us safe, we told him. Then his dad went away to war. He met people who had been in war, even people who had been horribly wounded in war.
And he has said things to me like, "When I grow up, if I don't get killed in battle, I want to be a Major League pitcher."
I'm proud of a boy who talks like that, and heartbroken that he has to. I know the day may come when my boy has to go, and I'll learn things about war that hundreds of thousands of American parents have learned in the past few years.
Will my son then also have to learn all these gut-wrenching things?
What about the betrayal? Will he have to learn about that as I fear we might be about to?
Far too many people have deluded themselves into thinking that if we withdraw our military from Iraq, that Iraqis will somehow have peace. Far too many people have deluded themselves into thinking that if we withdraw from Iraq, that we will have peace.
We were not in Iraq on September 11, 2001. We were not in Japan on December 7, 1941, and in both instances, fanatics loyal to would-be tyrants attacked us.
65 years later, BB-39 U.S.S. Arizona still bleeds, but we finished the job. The United States destroyed the enemy and the ideology that sent her to the bottom. We fought a far more capable enemy that was armed with far greater resources and weaponry, and we sustained far more casualties in individual battles than we might loose in ten years in Iraq... Yet we prevailed.
If we refuse to finish the job of destroying Islamist terrorism where it lives in Iraq, Iran, Syria, Yemen, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Lebanon, Gaza, Sudan, and elsewhere, it will not slink away in the night. Terror will smolder like a peat fire in corners of the world both far and near, until once again one day, we look up to see burning building and burning people falling from the sky.
Then it will be our children—yours, mine and Jules'—sent off to fight what will then be a more widespread and entrenched enemy. This future war will requiring more men, more resources, and more terrible weaponry, and yet, this future war never needs to be... if we have the fortitude to finish this war that they started, now, in our time.
Iraq is but one battleground in a wider war that one day must include every nation that harbors, equips, or sustains Islamic terrorism.
"Cowboy" Bush was right on September 20, 2001.
You either honor the ideas, ideals and sacrifices required to maintain free and democratic civilization, or you allow barbarism, fanaticism, and oppression to reign.
The choice is yours.
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Bush was the first president to violate the Bush Doctrine (long before now).
Posted by: Bearster at December 07, 2006 09:34 AM (v9MqO)
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We need a Roosevelt, a Patton But what we have is Bo Bo the Clown and his buddy Giggles.
Face it the enemy will have to kill one million Americans and Destroy an entire city before we forget Brittany Spears with out panties and Abu Ghraib with panties only then will we fight a real war.
But then again likely as not we won't.
Survival of the fittest.
Posted by: Barry at December 07, 2006 11:17 AM (0Co69)
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Your contrast with the situation in World War II is apt. Back then, we knew what it would look like when we won: the Germans and the Japanese would surrender. They surrendered, and the war was over.
What does it look like to win the GWOT? How will we know that we've won? What are the criteria for success? Until someone can answer that question in a reasonable fashion, this war will look endless and, thus, unwinnable.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at December 07, 2006 11:25 AM (/Wery)
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Posted by Doc Washboard at December 7, 2006 11:25 AM
It very well may be endless, or seem to be at any rate. Does that me we sould not fight it? Curl up and hope it goes away?
They came here once and killed innocents, don't you think they will do it again? Especially if they see us backing down now when it gets a little rough? They'll just up the ante, make it rougher and rougher to get what they want. Us under their rule, surrendered to Islam, or dead. Some choices huh?
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 07, 2006 11:36 AM (elhVA)
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You want reasonable answers and reasonable criteria from an unreasonable enemy in a new/old war, Doc. You're entire way of thinking, your entire understanding of what kind of conflict this is, and how to fight it (or in your case, avoid it) is wrong.
You're still trying to apply WWII-era concepts of combat and victory among recognized combatants to a war with ideologies no less strident, but combatants far more shadowy.
We are fighting fundamentalist Islam of both Sunni and Shia varieties. The Shia "brand" arguably started this conflict against us decades ago, but with the rise of al Qaeda and affiliated groups during the 1990s, Sunni extremists are what we are more familiar with, even as Shia terrorism is undeniably the growing, larger and more dangerous threat facing the world today.
This war, which we cannot win without an explicit recognition of what it is, is a war against all variations of fundamentalist Islam.
Presently, there are two many branches of this fundamentalist Islam, Shia and Sunni, and each has their own terror groups and their own state sponsors (though sponsors can and do cross sectarian lines). The "marquee players" are presently al Qaeda, the Taliban, Baathist insurgents, various Palestinian groups, Chechens, and the janjaweed for "Team Sunni," backed to varying degrees by Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Syria, Sudan, Yemen, and other Arab, African, and Asian players. The Shiite "marquee players" in this drama are the various Shiite militias in Iraq and Hezbollah in Lebanon, backed by Lebanese Shiite civilians, Syria, and Iran.
There are of course non-government actors supporting terror groups around the world, but the vast majority of terrorism on a scale that we should be dealing with as a foreign policy/military issue is state-sponsored or state-tolerated.
Who we need to beat to win is deceptively simple; we knock off the governments that sponsor terrorism, and make it quite clear that to support terrorism is suicide. Terrorists don't care about dying, but the cynical old men than send them out to die generally do.
If we are going to give an honest effort towards winning this war on fundamentalist Islam, we first have to find a way to depose governments in Iran and Syria, while simultaneously undercutting the terrorist group Hezbollah and the Iranian-backed Shia militias in Iraq.
This may not be easy, but it is easier than it appears, due in no small part to rapidly developing situations on the ground today.
Iran's real powerbroker, Ayatollah ali Khamenei (President Ahmadinejad is a mouthpiece) is dying, at a time when Iranian students are clamoring for freedom from an oppressive regime. Can you say, "unstable?" I think any student of the current Middle East conflict will agree that as Iran's mullacracy goes, so goes Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon.
I've written in the recent past of how U.S military air strikes can cripple Iran's ability to threaten Persian Gulf shipping, and how other air strikes can cripple Iran's very limited capability to refine their oil reserves into usable fuel. Combine those strikes with blockade of oil inbound to Iran via a U.S Naval blockade in the Gulf of Oman would literally bring Iran to a grinding halt within weeks. At the same time, Saudi Arabia (Iran's greatest regional enemy, a nominal U.S. ally, and the single nation most threatened by IranÂ’s involvement in Iraq) could increase production, so that the price of oil (and Iran's income) drops.
Concurrent to these destabilizing military air strikes, the blockade and the forced collapse of the Iranian economy, U.S. forces in Iraq could be concentrated on telegraphed head-on assaults on Mahdi Army and Badr Brigades to crush the Shia militias. I just recently completed
We Were One, a book chronicling the U.S. assault on Fallujah, and think the lessons learned would enable us to win what would be a very bloody, but very necessary campaign. The Baker Commission and the in-coming chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Silvestre Reyes, thinks we need an additional 20,000-30,000 troops deployed to Iraq. Make them combat troops tasked with the singular goal of crushing the Shiite militias. I'd also make sure that our friends the Saudis were making strong, under-the-table diplomatic overtures to the Sunni insurgency during this time, letting them know this is their last, best chance to emerge from this war without a genocide coming down on their heads. Considering the movement towards that direction from many Iraqi Sunni tribal leaders right now (self-preservation is a wonderful motivator), and together with success in pounding out the Shiite militias that will then no longer be able to rely on a waning Iran for support, and Iraq
might just have a chance of making it.
Of course, with Iran's mullacracy faltering of failing, Syria also easily folds. Through a combination of economic sanctions and perhaps a short air assault along the lines of Operation El Dorado Canyon, we can "remind" Assad that he can be easily toppled through military force if he continues to provide a conduit of men and material to Hezbollah. Frankly, the weak-jawed dentist strikes me as someone who would prefer to remain alive and in power rather than die a martyrÂ’s death. Roll Iran and Syria, and Hezbollah's influence in Lebanon starts to crumble, and when they inevitably clash with Israel again, they will be unable to rearm with heavy weapons. They will have no ability or replenish lost supplies or make payments (bribes, really) to the Shia that suffer in Lebanon because of their militancy.
Iran's mullahs will be stripped of their greatest threats and assets, and will likely fall in an internal revolt that could only bring forth a more moderate regime, whatever it would be. These new leaders (or even the current ones, if they survive), would know a simple bomb and blockade campaign could once again shut their nation down. Iran's leaders quit terrorism, because they could no longer afford to support it.
Syria, without the backing of Iran and against the threat of direct military and/or economic regime change, would also stop supporting terrorism, which would weaken their grip in Lebanon, and given democracy a chance to re-establish itself over a weakened Hezbollah. Iraq, no longer beholden to militias, would have a chance to forge nationalist ties, or form regional partitions, but at least it would have a chance, with U.S forces on hand to help train and stamp out terrorist brush fires as needed.
Other, smaller terror supporting nations such as Sudan, Yemen, etc, would likely change their ways as a result of the deposition of much more powerful regimes Syria and Iran. Incentives could be provided to promote more secularized, moderate forms of governments in all of these nations, and those that will not moderate, will die by force of arms.
This is all just speculation of course. You asked what victory might look like, and this is one vision of how it might be won. The simple fact of the matter is that we are in a cultural war between liberal western civilizations and those fundamentalist Muslims that would reestablish a bloody, oppressive caliphate and destroy our way of life. Which would you prefer?
I sincerely hope that this war can be confined to fundamentalist Islam. If not, I fear that we will have a conflict that will see their cultural ultimately eradicated. I'd much rather that Islam morph into a less violent, more enlightened and moderate religion through an Islamic Reformation, but the choice is ultimately in their hands.
I strongly suspect, however, that defeating those nations that sponsor terrorism, undercutting the terrorist groups themselves, and hoping to reform Islam by purging its radical elements, isnÂ’t "reasonable" in your eyes, Doc.
I somehow suspect that any kind of victory isn't.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 07, 2006 01:04 PM (g5Nba)
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This all seems like a tall order. If that's what has to happen, though, then someone in the Administration needs to come right out and say it: "This war's not over until we have deposed the leaders of Iran, Syria, Sudan, Yemen, etc." and list the countries we need to invade or bend to our will. (Also: shouldn't Pakistan (as a harborer of terrorists) and Saudi Arabia (as the home of many of the 9/11 hijackers) be on that list?
Listing it like that--"this country, this country, this country and this one"--will give people a better idea of what is expected.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at December 07, 2006 06:31 PM (/Wery)
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We were not in Iraq on September 11, 2001. We were not in Japan on December 7, 1941, and in both instances, fanatics loyal to would-be tyrants attacked us.
We were attacked on 9/11 by Sunni radicals financed by Saudi money. The administration's response was to topple the Sunni regime in Baghdad, and now Iraq is controlled by Shiites aligned with Tehran. How this is a good outcome is beyond me, but I'm sure you can exlain it. Oh and by the way, the Sauidis are still paying radical Sunnis to kill Americans:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061208/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_insurgency_saudi
Posted by: Pinson at December 08, 2006 02:27 PM (cFfro)
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Mugtada al Sadr, who already had a price on his head for murder, slaughtered and mutilated those American contractors at Fallujah 2 1/2 years ago.
Instead of ordering him killed, the administration removed the bounty and invited him to form a party in the Iraqi government.
It was at that moment that our enemies, in Iraq and around the world, realized that "You are with us or you are with the terrorists" was nothing but retorical bullcrap.
Posted by: RKO at December 08, 2006 04:07 PM (xun7w)
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RKO, I hate to intrude on your reality, by al Sadr had about as much to do with what happened in Fallujah as Rosie O'Donnell did... and maybe less. Fallujah was a Sunni/al Qaeda stronghold of Musab al-Zarqawi, and they would have likely killed the Shia al-Sadr just as quickly as they would an American. As a matter of fact, they have killed more Shia than Americans in Iraq.
Pinson, we responded to 9/11 by targeting al Qaeda and the Taliban, the people most directly responsible, not Iraq.
How do you guys do in school when yet get even the most basic facts of recent history absolutely wrong?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 08, 2006 04:16 PM (g5Nba)
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CY;
You're right about al Sadr and Fallujah. My bad.
al Sadr and his then 3000 strong militia were busy attacking Americans in the spring of '04, but not those contractors in Fallujah.
That said, I don't recall 60,000 strong Nazi militias being permitted to operate under our noses in occupied Germany. I don't understand why it has been permitted in Iraq. And as long as IslamoNazi militias are permitted to kill each other full time and Americans in their spare time, I don't see how we get to "win" and leave a pacified, stable Iraq. Are we supposed to hang around for another 2 or 5 or 20 years until they decide to just get along? It seems a passive, losing strategy to me, one that has made us look weak to folks like the N.Koreans, Iranians, Syrians, and the rest of the world.
Posted by: RKO at December 08, 2006 11:20 PM (7AQZp)
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RKO, you're absolutely correct. Because the reaction to 60,000 strong militias in occupied Germany would have been 600 plane air raids, artillery barrages, etc. And because the Germans, knowing that, would have lynched anyone suggesting it. And because the Allies had already killed or imprisoned in PW camps most of the military age males that would have made up those militias. See, in that war, we recognized that victory involved breaking the will and capacity of anyone in the enemy population who even tried to resist.
Instead, we have terrorist propaganda films on CNN, showing how much fun it is to snipe at Americans. We have ex-Presidents, opposition party candidates, and people like yourself who see Amerikkka as the world's biggest problem. We have news organizations publishing classified documents and nothing happens. We have 90% of our college faculties made up of people who want "a million Mogadishu's" for the "little Eichmans". In WWII, anyone who said things like that would have been lynched by the populace.
Oh, and Doc, here's your answer on what victory in WWII will look like: any citizen of any country who hears of someone planning an attack on us will immediately denounce that person, and the government of that country will imprison them, because they are nore afraid that their country will have the crap blown out of it than they are of their Muqtada al-Sadrs. And, no, I really don't care how many of their cities we have to nuke, or how many of them we have to kill, to get to that point. And if reaching that point requires killing the Fifth Column in this country to get them out of the way, that works too.
Posted by: SDN at December 09, 2006 08:17 AM (pPLpb)
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PIMF: victory in the WOT will look like:
Posted by: SDN at December 09, 2006 08:19 AM (pPLpb)
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SDN;
I'm not certain what you meant by "...people like yourself who see Amerikkka as the world's biggest problem." For the record, anyone who sees America as any kind of "problem" isn't like me at all.
I agree with all you said about the media, academia, ex presidents, etc., but let's be clear about something.
For the entire duration of our involvement in Iraq, Bush has had the full power of Commander in Chief of the greatest nation on earth. He has had the full backing of a Republican House and Republican Senate. He has had under his command the finest military in the history of mankind.
If Bush had ordered our forces to pacify Iraq after the defeat of its army, or anytime during the past three plus years, it would have been done. The media, academia, etc. would have been utterly powerless to stop him. The only power they had was the power he gave away to them because he lacked the moral courage to ignore them and allow our troops to finish the job, whatever it took.
The day our tanks rolled into Baghdad, every enemy we have was pissing in their pants. After nearly 4 years of Bush's half assed, look how "compassionate" we are dithering, those enemies are laughing in our faces.
Posted by: RKO at December 09, 2006 10:00 AM (ejlwo)
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Let's look at this strategically and see how the ISG addressed the strategic goals of the GWOT.
US Strategic Goals: Defeat Al-Quida and establish conditions to prevent further attacks on the US.
1. Defeat Al Quida in Afghanistan by overthrowing the Taliban and destroying their bases.
2. Overthrow Saddam Hussein and eliminate terrorist safe havens in Iraq; win the low intesity war fought against US since 1998.
3. Defeat Al Quida globally by working with allies to roll up Islamic terrorist cells.
4. Implement long-term solution by addressing root causes of conflict. Establish democracies in Afghanistan and Iraq and later spread freedom and economic prosperity throughout the Middle East.
Al Quida Strategic Goals
1. Stay alive.
2. Remove US power from the Middle East: sets conditions for goals 3 & 4.
3. Overthrow existing Sunni-led Arab governments
4. Establish a totalitarian Islamic Caliphate to retake the Middle East, Balkans, and Spain.
Saddam's Strategic Goals
1. Stay in power.
2. Remove US power from the Middle East: sets conditions for goal 3.
3. Overthrow neighbors to establish a Nazi-inspired Sunni Baathist totalitarian empire.
Ahmadinejad's/Iranian Strategic Goals
1. Stay in power.
2. Remove US power from the Middle East: sets conditions for goals 3 & 4.
3. Overthrow existing Sunni-led Middle Eastern governments.
4. Establish Shia authoritarian theocracy over the Shia dominated lands in the Middle East and regain primacy in the Middle East.
Now that we have the strategic goals of the major players - how are we doing?
US: First three achieved and working on goal 4. Went on the strategic offensive and overthrew the Taliban and Saddam. Established democracies in Afghanistan and Iraq. US and allied governments currently fighting to consolidate gains made to date. Rolled up terror cells worldwide. No successful attacks against US mainland in five years and kept economy strong.
Al Quida: Leadership has been decimated and is now in hiding. No successful attacks against the US mainland in five years. Has lost its bases in Afghanistan. Failed to get the US out of the Middle East, overthrow any Sunni regimes, or establish a Caliphate. Very poor support from the "Arab street." Has been able to continue to claim it is a player by simple survival and a very effective propaganda campaign. Hard to claim victory from a cave.
Saddam: Completely failed. Made arguably the worst intelligence failure by misreading the US.
Iran: Has failed to push the US from the region. Pursuing nuclear weapons because its support of the Shia insurgency in the south and support of Sunni insurgency in the west (with SyriaÂ’s support) isn't doing the job. Iranian pursuit of nuclear weapons has spooked its Sunni Arab neighbors to begin nuclear programs.
Now that we have reviewed the strategic objectives of each of the main players, why would the ISG want to give our enemies everything they want and snatch defeat from the jaws of US strategic victory?
(I posted this over at Neoneocon earlier today, but I thought it would also work on this thread)
Posted by: Warrior Scholar at December 10, 2006 08:24 PM (D5ktJ)
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Sorry to leave a link in the comments, but your trackback URL didn't want to play. I
blogged about just this subject this weekend. I would suggest that what you see going on in Iraq right now is what victory looks like when the enemy is psychotic.
Posted by: K T Cat at December 11, 2006 09:17 AM (KDU/K)
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December 06, 2006
Harsh Nature
CNET.com senior editor James Kim, who went missing in Oregon while trying to get help for his stranded family,
is dead:
"At 12:03 hours, the body of James Kim was located at the bottom of Big Windy Creek," Oregon State Police Lt. Gregg Hastings said at a press conference.
My heart goes out for the Kim family. James Kim left behind a wife and two small children, all of which were rescued in good condition on Saturday.
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I've been following the story for days and I'm sadden it's ended like this. At least Kati and the daughters were rescued in time. I've been reading comments at other places like SFGate and CNET and noticed a small trend. There are some staying he was foolish for leaving the car and trying to go for help; that when your lost you should stay put. I'm an Eagle Scout that spent my childhood up in the wilderness of Northern Maine. Staying put is excellent advice but only for so many days/weeks. I'll tell you: after a week has passed, your out of food, freezing, burned tires, car out of gas, the wife is running low on breast milk, it's high time to make an attempt. The time "limit" for most Search and Rescue attempts is roughly a week. After that efforts are dramtically reduced to just a few personnel. Sorry for the long comment. In the end hindsight/armchair quarterbacking is 20/20. He took a gamble to save his family, Rest in Peace James.
Posted by: George at December 07, 2006 09:37 AM (95QnD)
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I agree George, That about what I learned as well. What I don't understand is if he tried to backtrack his driven path or cut out into a new area. Without knowing an area, it can be deceiving.
Reguardless, he tried to help his family and my heart goes out to them. I wish them well.
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 07, 2006 12:24 PM (elhVA)
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Iraq Study Group Report
The Iraq Study Group Report is posted
here (PDF).
I've only had time to skim through the executive summary up through the assessment thus far, but don't see anything inconsistent with the findings of the report that were leaked previously. Baker & Co. are not offering any radically new ideas. I think an argument can be made that much of what is said in this report is merely the dusting off of the same failed realist diplomacy that helped create a Middle East where extremism was allowed to rise unchallenged.
In many ways, the Baker Commission ignores the lessons of the last five years (or 35, depending on your viewpoint) and advocates plastering over modern problems with outdated applications of policies that have systematically failed over three decades.
Baker and his contemporaries obviously exhuasted their best ideas Presidents ago.
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Your take: The report is "...merely the dusting off of the same failed realist diplomacy that helped create a Middle East where extremism was allowed to rise unchallenged."
This typical defense of the Iraq War/Bush foreign policy on your site is getting old. Not because it is without merit—American foreign policy has failed to combat rising Middle Eastern extremism.
Rather it is on the complete absence of what this "active" approach should be-- and how it differs from the Baker report.
I ask, what is your active program?
Is it invading Iran? Is it putting more troops in Iraq? Is it continuing the impasse on the Middle East peace process, or conceding the United States can't do anything about it?
You leave me wondering.
Your criticism lacks any real substance.
The Middle East was and is a mess. America's involvement in Iraq has made it more so, and has actually fostered more extremism.
If more actions like the Iraq War are the pillars of your roadmap to American security, I must admit I am a bit confused.
But I will leave it to you or other readers to actually enlighten me to your implicit plan for success in the Middle East.
End point—Sweeping generalizations of policy "realist" or "neo-con" miss what actually matters in foreign policy. The real challenge of foreign policy is to tailor approaches that work to given situations.
Anyone can say foreign policy successes have resulted from “realism” or “anti-realism”—they are nebulous terms one can define at will. What fewer people can say is, ‘How do we go forward with real policies, not cheap rhetoric?’
You have failed that test today.
Posted by: Keith at December 06, 2006 04:12 PM (JNOoc)
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Iraq has not fostered more extremism. Just because 9 out of 10 jihadis say Iraq is their number one greivance, it doesn't mean they wouldn't have strapped on the bomb vest without it. When cartoons from Denmark cause people to kill, I get the feeling Iraq is just an excuse.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at December 06, 2006 05:17 PM (oC8nQ)
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How many Iraqi's did Baker kill in 91-92? Thousands, hundreds of thousands? Did he aid the dimmi's in the slaughter of millions in the 70's in Southeast Asia? Killing must get easier after you kill few million. Add the blood of 50 million babies and they make Hitler look like a boy scout.
Now you can add the blood of ten more Americans to his and the dimmi's hands. The terrorists are holding up their end of the cut and run for the dimmi's. You crawl, they kill, and the dimmi's crawl more, they kill more. This seems to be a never ending process for terrorists and they're dimmi friends. Hey they won an election by getting over 2,000 American soldiers killed in Iraq so they're trying for a hundred thousand and two elections.
Posted by: Scrapiron at December 06, 2006 05:36 PM (0Co69)
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"The Middle East was and is a mess. America's involvement in Iraq has made it more so, and has actually fostered more extremism."
This is simply not supportable. It's directly from the playbook, so I have seen it before (repeatedly), but the suggestion that involvement in Iraq fostered MORE extremism...is simply a canard. Extremism existed in greater frequency against American interests, people and possessions PRIOR to the war on Iraq...not after.
Iran and Al Qaeda have sent wave after wave of fanatical Islamic cultists into Iraq to disrupt peace and prosperity from taking a hold there...but there is not MORE "extremism" there is only a more CONCENTRATED extremism. We are fighting them over there...and we ever could get the rules of engagement to allow us to unleash an ass kicking of them, instead of making us sit in a defensive posture...they would get the lesson they sorely deserve. (that is, unlike the Michael Moore version of the left, you believe WE deserve the ass kicking)
"The real challenge of foreign policy is to tailor approaches that work to given situations."
Absolutely, I agree. Let's take the handcuffs off the protectors and start putting them on the perps.
Invade Iran? Not necessary...let's kill the bastards as they cross the border into Iraq and let the Iraqi's capture the weapons Iran is sending in and use them to kill their insurgents.
Let's call Syria and Iran exactly what they are. Agent provocateurs intentionally attempting to infiltrate and disrupt a growing democracy and a peace process. Stand up to them.
Intentionally engaging a liar in dialogue is an invitation to being told what you want to hear, so that both sides can pretend to believe it. Then again, this is what the media does when it speaks with leftist politicians, (and Jimmy Carter and the Baker's Dozen) so at least they are practiced at it.
No sense sending in amateur appeasers, enablers and dissemblers. Send in the pros.
I mean, why send it
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 06, 2006 06:13 PM (V56h2)
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Confederate Yankee, don't let Keith's comments bother you. Your reactions to the worthless Baker-Hamilton Commission Report are on target.
Posted by: Phil Byler at December 06, 2006 08:50 PM (qthJd)
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I appreciate the responses back to my comment, and to Phil Byler: I don't think my babbling is bothering Confederate Yankee at all.
So it seems that all the commentators attack one point of my argument mainly: that going into Iraq has fostered my terrorism not less.
While I agree terrorism was dangerous before going into Iraq and before 9-11, I am at a loss at understanding how going after the Iraqi regime in a poor fashion (Bush's poor war plan and false expectations lost the war, not the casualties) helped our cause.
Now maybe it has: diverting all that Anti-Americanism to Iraq. But our failing in Iraq--again owing to false expectations and poor planning by Bush--has led to a strategic folly: giving terrorists a new tool to recruit towards and a new victory to point to.
But I doubt any of you will really even consider this point deeply, let alone agree.
The main point stands: none of you offered a workable plan forward. Cfbleachers says we should take out the Iranian operatives that are crossing the border. I completely agree. But one question: where are the American troops needed to secure the border? Last time I looked we were having a hard enough time just defending Baghdad. Again, this aim of yours--while I agree with--does not seem feasible with current force levels, or even any reasonable increase in force levels.
Second calling out Syria. What exactly does that get us? Syria and Iran have more influence in Iraq than we do. What does "stand up" mean? Send in troops and invade? Well, again: where are these troops? And do you really want to occupy another country.
I agree that both Syria and Iran are purposively trying to keep Iraq a mess. But doesn't this make sense--meaning shouldn't have U.S. officials predicted this--when we signaled them out for regime change? So why did the U.S. go in with a war plan not failed to take into account this contingency? Or a plan that would even wipe al-Sadr—remember commanders on the ground decided to forgo urban warfare that would have enforced our (I mean the provisional Iraqi government’s) warrant on his head.
What does it say when the American military can’t beat—who was then—a second-rate Islamic military leader? Clearly it says that we didn’t go in with the right plan.
All your comments seem to suggest that we needed more troops, more force and a better plan for post-Saddam Iraq.
We, meaning George W. Bush and his advisors, did not have this plan. And guess what? They still don't.
This gets to the heart of my frustration--bothersome to you or not--none of your plans, regardless of them being "right" or "wrong" give any reflection to what America's current force projection is in the Middle East.
And, as Iraq has shown, going into a project without full preparations may lead to dangerous failure. And failure can bring about worse effects than status-quo.
Ridiculous counter-case: Let's say instead of invading Iraq America put all its diplomatic and hard force into hunting down terrorists and shutting down financial flows. This could have included strikes in Iranian territory and Syrian territory. Heck, what if we accommodated with Saddam on the condition he ceased funding and started cracking down on fundamentalist terrorists—or else we take away his oil profits and trade avenues. Wouldn’t of this, at the very least, kept Islamic terrorists out of Iraq?
Whether or not you believe there are more or less terrorists in the world today, Iraq was not a hotbed of Islamic terrorism until after the fall of Saddam. (This is not to mitigate the particular form of terrorism that country felt in anyway.)
Posted by: Keith at December 07, 2006 01:24 AM (2lHh2)
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"Iraq was not a hotbed of terrorism before we invaded"
THats true.
When the terrorists have absolute power over a country, its unusual for there to be alot of carbombings.
Posted by: TMF at December 07, 2006 08:02 AM (+BgNZ)
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Keith,
Good discussion, but lot's of empty rhetoric. Remember that we did take down the regime - in 3 weeks. Remember that there is a fledgling democracy in place - even if they haven't figured out how to live together and make it work yet. So those strategic goals did work.
The post-war planning was pretty poor, but also remember that the tactical situation changed rapidly. It's really easy to sit back now and say we should have expected "all" contingencies. But in the real world, it doesn't work like that. And that's the problem with your argument. It isn't based in on-the-ground, at the front, adaptation to the new tactics coming from the enemy. It simply says, "We should have....". That isn't a plan for adaptation - that is simply finger pointing. But - hey - that's what the left is good at, right?
Why don't we say, "Hey - when Clinton bombed the Iraqis in Operation Desert Fox in 1988, after he had signed the Iraq Liberation Law, that he caused an upsurge in terrorism - and that is what we are facing today." It's true you know. But - that doesn't solve the problem does it?
When you say we "lost" in Iraq, what do you mean? Are you talking about the new businesses that have opened, the fact that the Iraqi's now control almost 75% of the country, the new schools, higher standard of living, new democratically elected government, resurging oil production, growth in their economy, jobs, not under the threat of a murderous dictator, etc., or what? Oh - wait I know - there is an insurgency. Wow. And in a country of 21 million people, how many insurgents are there? Maybe at worst 10,000? Wow. Almost five-hundredths of 1%. Wow. Obviously a civil war, right?
See - you only want to talk about the things that have gone wrong. You don't want to acknowledge that more things have gone right than wrong. Has the plan succeeded? Not yet. Obviously the strategic goals are still the same (regime change and then stable Iraq), but the tactics have needed constant adaptation to changing circumstances. But still - progress is happening and all the ISG did was to say "train the Iraqis" - which we were already doing - and "use diplomacy" (and that with people who chant "Death to America."
My position is simple. Until somebody from the left acknowledges that there has been progress made, their arguments are intellectually dishonest and therefore below most consideration. People on the right have admitted mistakes were made. But that is all the Lefties can say. Are you any different?
Posted by: Specter at December 07, 2006 08:44 AM (ybfXM)
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Since this seems to be a reasonable discussion, I will attempt to work through the reasoning...with some trepidation that we may simply fall back eventually into explaining why the playbook is wrong and all the songs in the hymnal are off tune...but, hope springs eternal.
"While I agree terrorism was dangerous before going into Iraq and before 9-11"
Excellent launching off point...without agreement on this point, there is usually no point in going forward. But we have to add a couple of components.
Not only was terrorism ON THE RISE prior to 9-11, it was getting BOLDER. The failure to CONFRONT it...head on...to hunt down and disrupt cash flow, destroy the head of the snake and to intercept INTENT...in any organized, meaningful, powerful (in action AND resolve) way...was swelling the terrorists with a false sense of security. Oslimy Been Lousy had even said, "The Americans don't have the courage to withstand a bloody nose. They will not complete the task, they will retreat, cower and tremble after we hit them once". When you are dealing with fanatics, the MOST important thing you have to do to them, is take away their will to fight, and make them believe you will never give up, that you will not back down, that you will continue to stand up to them.
When your OWN people, your OWN information stream, your OWN legislators...attack you from inside...your OWN side turns on you...calls YOU evil, says you DESERVE to be attacked, calls them "minutemen" and romaticizes them, propagandizes their efforts and demonizes yours...it EMBOLDENS THEM to keep fighting. They have been taught that we are weak, lack courage and those lies being told by the Ministry of Media, the prostitution of principles in favor of party politics by leftist Democrats in order to win office...combined to create the most effective recruiting poster for Islamofascists that could have ever existed.
It said to them "We are winning, and we are morally right...even the AMERICANS agree. They are wimps and they are defeated, come join us in finishing them off. Read their papers, listen to their news, they call themselves evil and we are great".
If you truly want to know the reason that more and more Islamofascists are willing to join the fight against us...leftists need to look no further than the nearest mirror.
"I am at a loss at understanding how going after the Iraqi regime in a poor fashion (Bush's poor war plan and false expectations lost the war, not the casualties) helped our cause."
It's really very simple. The Islamofascists have been attacking us, for virtually NO reason whatsoever, for decades. (we refuse to turn our backs on Israel, they want to drive her into the sea and commit genocide...um...I don't consider this a legitimate reason. Jimmy Carter, Baker, Mel Gibson, Michael Moore and the Kos Kidz aside, most SANE Americans agree with me)
When they became SO emboldened after our half-hearted and disorganized attempts to lob missiles into the desert in the 90's when they were bombing ships, embassies, and World Trade Center attack I, etc.....they hijacked planes and flew them into our buildings. We got serious. And we got pissed. Good.
Al Qaeda had set up camp and was state sponsored by the Taliban. This...nobody...not even an imbecile leftist like Moore or Noman Chumpsky can argue. We gave the Taliban the ABSOLUTELY CORRECT response. Give them up. They refused. We went after them and rooted them out. Got them on the run.
Here's where leftists stopped thinking. (if ever, there were MANY who said that AFGHANISTAN was a "mistake", a "new Viet Nam", a "QUAGMIRE", ETC). We couldn't get those cowards to even agree that going after Al Qaeda and their state sponsored goons in the Taliban was a legitimate and worthwhile exercise of national defense. These traitors were ALREADY turning on us.
But we did the right thing...and we got the terrorists on the run.
Now, what is Phase II of KEEPING them on the run? We have to keep them from landing in a place where they can have STATE sponsored protection. Where were they MOST likely to come together and set up another nest of evil.
Pakistan's government was on OUR side. Iran and Syria had been effectively neutralized by our anger and resolve. NONE of those, would allow the terrorists to set up camp.
WHO had offered to sell them weapons? Who had CLINTON, ALBRIGHT, COHEN, BERGER said was the most evil dictator on the planet, intended to use WMD's against us and had influenced them to SIGN INTO LAW...the act announcing our plans for regime change? Saddam.
He had harbored terrorists for decades. Iraq was a safe haven for them. An offshoot of Al Qaeda was already operational in the north. Clinton, Albright, Cohen, Berger had all said the greatest threat of Iraq is that they would SELL WMD's to terrorists, to export terrorism around the globe against Western interests and Israel.
We did not know how many he had left. CLINTON said this. We gave him a chance to come clean. SEVERAL chances. He refused. Based upon his ADMISSION that he INTENDED to use them against American and Israel, AND on the fact that the terrorists were looking for ANY state sponsored protection...we simply could not afford to wait to see what would happen AFTER they got together.
Clinton, Albright, Cohen, Berger ALL said that Saddam linking up with terrorists was the most dangerous prospect the world had to face...ever...in history.
Leftists will scoff now at us not finding ENOUGH of the WMD'S, because they "knew" (with their Magic 8 balls apparently), that it was a "lie" of GEORGE W. BUSH, that they "existed" at all.
Their lemmings parrot this mendacious, vicious, and despicable propaganda. Clinton, Albright, Cohen, Berger all said THEY believed he had them, wanted more, wanted NUCLEAR weapons and wanted to use them against us.
The cocktail of necessity would have made the terrorists and Saddam immediate bedfellows. I've heard the arguments that Oslimy didn't like Saddam. But don't think for one minute that he wouldn't have used him...and vice versa.
We had to do two things. Keep the terrorists from becoming state sponsored again...AND keep WMD's out of their hands.
Even still...we gave first the Taliban, then Saddam EVERY opportunity to come clean. To avoid their own demise. They refused.
We then took them out militarily. Who misses them? Certainly not the people who were brutalized and tortured under them. No great loss.
The terrorists were now on the run. Being disrupted. Unable to set up camp. It was all set up to be successful. Then...our leftists sprang into action.
With efficiency that would have made Goebbels proud...they began the constant drumbeat of "America is evil, Islam is great". They ridiculed, they spat on our flag, they pissed down their bile on our heads each and every day. They attacked Israel and won support for Hamas and Hizbollah. They attacked President Bush, Vice President Cheney and Rumsfeld every day, in every way.
They posted phony photos, they used fake sources, they lied, cheated, stole, raped, pillaged and plundered America's interests. And emboldened the Islamofascists and weakened America's resolve.
This recruited and emboldened more fanatics to the Islamofascists and they attacked Iraq on a daily basis...while our leftists kept up the litany of their successes and BURIED any successes we were having.
The "news" became a propaganda tool against America and in favor of the terrorists.
We didn't need more troops or less troops, we needed to have more patriots and less traitors in our own information stream.
I do not expect leftists to agree with a single point here. But every word of this is factual and based on events that have taken place. We have been weakened, not by the acts of terrorists who have sniped at our soldiers...but by the lies and propaganda of our own media and leftist politicians and their despicable followers who I am ashamed to call my countrymen.
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 07, 2006 09:18 AM (5RM9g)
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"We, meaning George W. Bush and his advisors"
Because, heaven forbid "we" might mean...America and Americans...
"did not have this plan. And guess what? They still don't."
This, of course...is a crock. Of course they had a plan. The plan was to unseat the brutal dictator, keep the terrorists on the run, establish a seat of democracy in Iraq.
They didn't anticipate the psy-ops efficiency of our own turncoats in the media being as effective as it has been. They did not anticipate that our own media would bring down world opinion on the side of people who want to commit genocide. Where they fell down, was in anticipating the level of effectiveness of the traitors and turncoats. Or just how committed the left was to weakening American resolve.
"This gets to the heart of my frustration--bothersome to you or not--none of your plans, regardless of them being "right" or "wrong" give any reflection to what America's current force projection is in the Middle East."
We don't need MORE forces...we need two things. Different rules of engagement, and to overcome the psy-ops battle we are losing with the traitors on the left...especially in their Ministry of Media. We need to get truth and facts out...where this administration has failed...wholly, completely and utterly...is in defining the goals and communicating the message.
They have allowed themselves and America...to be defined by traitors. THIS is why the terrorists "message" and that of our own leftists...is almost a perfect overlay of each other. The traitors and the terrorists have the same message, because they have the same goal.
George W. Bush isn't "stupid", like the puerile left insists, he's actually brighter than 90% of his critics on that side (and brighter than the two dimwits Gore and Kerry who were chosen to run against him), but he is a HORRIBLE communicator.
We didn't lose this war to their (the terrorists) Rommel, a brilliant field general...but, if it will be lost, it will be lost to their Goebbels and our Benedict Arnolds.
We now need to adjust to the fact that the leftists have emboldened not just more terrorists and fanatics, but also Iran, Syria and those who mean to overthrow the countries we have already "toned down", Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Lybia, Jordan.
The leftists and their propaganda arm, the Ministry of Media have created a Middle East that is now capable of exploding. They have successfully moved world opinion from the side of right, truth and justice...to the side of lies, evil and a whole new bag of horrors. Congratulations to them. You have to give kudos and a tip of the hat to them, they have won the battle for hearts and minds and world opinion.
If this administration failed...it was in the failure to stand up to a pernicious, treachorous, black-hearted, lying, despicable media and the Socialist/World Populist imbeciles who follow them.
"And, as Iraq has shown, going into a project without full preparations may lead to dangerous failure. And failure can bring about worse effects than status-quo."
Worse effects? The terrorists are on the run, disrupted and have not successfully launched a SINGLE campaign against American interests on our soil since 9-11. I realize that the traitors who root for the enemy find this to be "worse than the status quo ante", but does any THINKING person agree?
We've lost less servicemen in Iraq than Americans who were murdered by Islamofascists PRIOR to 9-11. We are fighting them over THERE. We have them on the run. They are no longer state sponsored. Saddam can't build more WMD's, or get nuclear weapons. How is this WORSE, again?
The ONLY thing that is "worse" is the PICTURE being painted...of Iraq, of America, and of our intentions. To make the insurgents less bold, to make it not so much fun to take on the US, we should change the rules of engagement and kick some ass. AND, we should take on the lying leftists and their despicable Ministry of Media.
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 07, 2006 10:11 AM (5RM9g)
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Fact-Challenged Superficial Jew-Hating Fabulist
"Precious!"
But other than that, I'm sure he's a pretty nice guy.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:57 AM
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Post contains 20 words, total size 1 kb.
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Of the new age COW's (Citizens Of the World), this bunny-fearing, Anti-Semitic, malaise-inducing, cud chewing, pantywaist...is the lead Sacred Cow.
Perhaps the first truly World Populist to have been elected as President, he is also the CEO of Timeshare Americans, Inc.
Not Americans at heart, they merely reside here in herds until one of their handlers inserts the cattle prod and they all mindlessly stampede into some new vast and barren landscape mooing in unison all the anti-American and anti-Israel predigested swill they can collectively swallow in one day.
Filling up the COW trough are the Ministry of Media outlets...while the Kos Kidz and Huffington Post supply the mental saltlicks for most of lesser lights.
Jimmy Carter...the story of how a weak and ineffectual failure of a COW can be lionized through the prism of the Ministry of Media's...Timeshare Americans prism of lies, distortion and deceit.
Only the truly sane know, ...a COW is not a lion.
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 06, 2006 12:14 PM (5RM9g)
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How dare you berate poor Gollum with this invidious comparison.
Posted by: zhombre at December 06, 2006 09:04 PM (9y53H)
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dhimmi carter also looks a lot like this guy:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://3dlegends.com/laughton/hunchp.jpg&imgrefurl=http://3dlegends.com/laughton/c_laughton_hb.html&h=493&w=376&sz=17&hl=en&start=125&tbnid=L08TFwjmrj-ZgM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=99&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcharles%2Blaughton%26start%3D120%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26c2coff%3D1%26sa%3DN
Posted by: reliapundit at December 06, 2006 10:26 PM (hkZuQ)
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http://3dlegends.com/laughton/hunchp.jpg
Posted by: reliapundit at December 06, 2006 10:27 PM (hkZuQ)
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